December 17, 2024 • 22 mins
In this episode of the Schmidt List, host Kurt Schmidt sits down with David Ratner, a veteran in the book PR industry with over 30 years of experience. David delves into his extensive background, having run one of the largest book publicity agencies in the country and now focusing on helping nonfiction authors, especially in the business space, leverage their books as powerful tools for brand equity and thought leadership.
Kurt and David discuss invaluable advice for first-time authors, emphasizing that despite the crowded book market, there's still room for unique voices. They explore the various publishing options available today and stress the importance of utilizing a book as a new-age business card to build credibility and open doors.
David shares insights on the PR landscape, offering a glimpse into his customized approach based on clients' goals, needs, and budgets. From creating digestible content to leveraging network connections, David uncovers strategies authors can use to maximize the impact of their books, even after the initial launch.
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the nuanced world of book promotion, the importance of engaging content, and how to set realistic expectations for ROI from PR efforts. Whether you're a seasoned author or just thinking about writing your first book, this episode is packed with expert advice to help you navigate the journey from writing to successfully promoting your book.
Tune in to learn the secrets of turning your book into a powerful marketing tool and how to make it work for your long-term business success. Don’t miss this engaging conversation with David Ratner on the Schmidt List!
Visit" https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-ratner-81b9367/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/schmidt-list-entrepreneurial-insights--2664825/support.
Kurt and David discuss invaluable advice for first-time authors, emphasizing that despite the crowded book market, there's still room for unique voices. They explore the various publishing options available today and stress the importance of utilizing a book as a new-age business card to build credibility and open doors.
David shares insights on the PR landscape, offering a glimpse into his customized approach based on clients' goals, needs, and budgets. From creating digestible content to leveraging network connections, David uncovers strategies authors can use to maximize the impact of their books, even after the initial launch.
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of the nuanced world of book promotion, the importance of engaging content, and how to set realistic expectations for ROI from PR efforts. Whether you're a seasoned author or just thinking about writing your first book, this episode is packed with expert advice to help you navigate the journey from writing to successfully promoting your book.
Tune in to learn the secrets of turning your book into a powerful marketing tool and how to make it work for your long-term business success. Don’t miss this engaging conversation with David Ratner on the Schmidt List!
Visit" https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-ratner-81b9367/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/schmidt-list-entrepreneurial-insights--2664825/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Schmidlst Episode two hundred and ninety. Today we're
joined by David Ratner, a seasoned pro with thirty years
of experience in book pr. David is all about helping
nonfiction authors, especially in the business world, use their books
to build brand equity and establish themselves as thought leaders.
If you've ever dreamed of writing a book, or just
(00:21):
want to understand the world of book publicity a little better,
this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss.
Stick around you'll be glad you did.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Dave, how are you today?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'm doing well, Kurt, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I am doing fantastic now that you're here. So, David,
I am excited to hear and about all this stuff.
I've got a lot of questions for you, Jo, but
let's start with you yourself and the background in the
business you do. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Sure, absolutely so. I've been in the book PR space
for of thirty years now. I previously ran one of
the larger agencies in the country and enjoyed that quite
a bit. But there came a time where I saw
the direction the book sales were going, and I really
wanted to work with people who are going to get
value out of publicity that went simply beyond the dollar
for dollar return on book sales. Today, selling books is
(01:08):
harder than ever. I tend to work with authors in
the nonfiction space, mostly in the business space, who really
see their book as an excellent tool for brand equity,
a great way to raise awareness for their thought leadership,
their business practices, to generate content that feeds their social
marketing and sales channels, all those other great things that
that new business card gives you.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
The bulk of my clients for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I love it. Okay, let's start with a class of
people that maybe are thinking about writing their first book,
their first business focused book. Maybe they like myself, I
went through a lot of challenges in the beginning where
I was like, oh, who wants to hear another story
about this? And what am I going to add to
that space? There's if you look on Amazon, if you
(01:52):
do a search, there's five hundred thousand books with the
title with leadership in the title. It's literally crazy. So
what's your advice for how people should be approaching this
as a person who's interested in doing it not only
because they want to get business from it, but they
want to put their voice out there.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
So first and foremost I said, go for okay, and
there is, Yes, there are spaces that are definitely crowded,
but there's room for everybody. And in terms of publishing
a book, today, everybody can do it right and there's
different options. It's very different than it was fifteen twenty
years ago, where you had to go to the traditional
route and it was challenging and such.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Today going to the traditional wore its steal really hard.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
But there are dozens of fantastics self publishing and hybrid
publishing companies that can help anyone navigate the process at
a variety of different price points. And I think, look,
it's really isn't for everybody about how many people read
your book and whether there's room for your book in
the space.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
It's how you utilize your book.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Right, your book as a tool. Right, it becomes you
new business card. In some ways, it gives you instant
validation for your authority and thought leadership. Very rare that
somebody looks on the spite of a book to see
who published it, to say, oh, that he get published
by a big publisher.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I'm sure there are some books that do that.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
But overall it's just a great tool to share your knowledge,
your information as a way to generate coverage. Like the
media and the work that I do. The beauty of
books is as a product in the media world is
that books get a free pass because their information, their
education to a certain depth or entertainment, and so it's
a lot easier to promote somebody's consulting practice or other
(03:32):
businesses that they have under the auspices of the book
versus just trying to promote a product.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
And when they comes to what is successful and what
you've seen successful with that in mindset that you just
talked about, what's the approach, the format, the size, give
me some more respecs about what books should look like
in shape like in order to be that you find
really fun to work with.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, physically it's a good question. I'm not sure I
think you stand sized books fit. What I do think
is that we live in a very short attention span.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Society today snow.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think writing a three hundred and fifty page book
is probably not the best idea. I would say keeping
it to two hundred and twenty pages or below is
probably ideal. I also think writing it in digestible format
so that people can walk away reading a chapter or
two with some takeaways. I think that's really valuable. I
always tell people, really think about your unique selling propositions.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Right there.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
There's lots of books on lots of topics, and sometimes
it's not what you say, but it's sometimes how you
say it. When you think about personal finance books for instance,
right Robert Kiyosaki came up with the rich dad, Poor
dad concept, and David Bach came up with the latte factor,
and Susie Orman's Empowering Women, and a lot of them
will tell you the same thing, pay yourself first.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
And all these other things.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
But if you have a unique way of delivering the message,
that certainly helps.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, I can imagine, because it dovetail into the work
that you're doing. Right, Because if there's a good hook,
there's a title. If there's a good message behind who
this book is for, it's clearly targeted. I must make
your job a little bit easier versus this is a
leadership book for leaders that lead. There's seriously notes, yes.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
But in the look at the world that we live
in the book pr world that we do look we
can get coverage for anyone for the most part. So sure,
a lot of people, I'm sure worry. Am I a
good enough source for this information? Leave that up to
the experts who you work with to help you do that.
A lot of us have great connections out there and
we're able to navigate that landscape very successfully for our clients.
(05:38):
And look, I'm a big believer in anything that you
do is understand your why. So why are you writing
this book right? Who are you writing it for? What
are your goals? It was even working backwards sometimes makes
a lot of sense, But it's important think about all
those things up front because deal with a lot of clients.
I think my lowlow on my website used to say,
you've written the book, now what? And I run into
(05:59):
a lot of people who that's exactly what happens. You
really should be thinking about the now what from day one? Yeah,
because that really.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Is key because then I want to transition into how
you approach it because I know a lot of people
that write books and they're like, Okay, great, now I'm
going to share it with people I know, and then
it'll be on Amazon, and then I'll get some speaking
events and things, and then after the kickoff, and I've
experienced this too. After you have the launch and all
(06:29):
these things, the interest in the declient goes pretty sharp
after the big reveal, and I guess that's where you
like to jump into. Is now the books out there
we jump in? So tell me a bit about how
do you Is it every book custom or is there
a framework that you like to follow?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
I think from the PRS look, First of all, everything
is done based on goals, needs, budgets and other factors.
I have clients who literally will spend significant amounts of
money of other clients who don't have those reals worses
but want to try to do something. So everything that
I do is customized, and I always work with the
philosophy that I give you lots of options. I don't
tell you what to do, but I will help you
(07:09):
think about each of these options.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Eyes wide open.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Okay, if we're going to do this campaign, what are
our goals? What should we expect out of it? And
try to make sure that everybody's expectations are met and everybody.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Has a clearer understanding.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
It really depends on the resources, you know what. I
will tell clients one of the first questions they'll say
to me is I'm going to do this four month
publicity campaign, which is the standard kind of campaign that
we start with how many books.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Will I sell?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
And my answer is always start with zero. And if
the work that we do for you is valuable, let's
continue the conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
But if you are.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Completely reliant or relying on the fact that you're going
to get a return on your investment in terms of
book sales, but I was told the pretty much keep
their money in their pocket because it's.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
A very difficult thing to achieve.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Authors today are going to, especially in the business world,
are going to be responsible for their sales. It's why
so many are going the hybrid and the publishing route
because they're being in all the work. And then if
you're with the traditional publisher, your royalty rate is significantly smaller,
but they want you out pushing it. They're not doing
a whole lot to sell books these days anymore, because
(08:11):
it's difficult understand that your network is your most valuable asset.
It's not about just asking everybody to review it on Amazon.
It's really thinking about your network and who to ask
for what. Maybe somebody who would be interested in having
you speak to their senior leadership team in return for
buying fifty copies of the book, right, or maybe somebody
else of endorsement. Maybe somebody else has a strong social
(08:33):
media following, so you can ask them to post for
it and look it's You also have to try to
make these things as easy as possible for people, because
you're going to make a lot of asks. Some people
are not going to respond, some are going to say
yes with the best of intentions and nothing happens, and
then others will be your advocates. And for those who are,
you want to make it as easy as possible for them.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, it makes sense. I know with my book putting together,
when I ask people for to promote it, make a
post or do these things, I always try to share
with them, like a little blurb about what the book's
about and who it's for. The more you like you
were just saying, the more I can give them to
prying the pump as it or the faster and easier
it becomes. Becauseboddy looking at a blank slate and I
(09:16):
need to write a review. It's just so you know,
this is the goals of the book and things, and
then just respond to the goals of the book. Don't
try to just write a review or a post or
share something based on just your memory of reading the
entire book. So I'm guessing that kind of works the
same when you're going out for media stuff, because when
you talk about PR, it's not even just about the
(09:38):
work you're doing there, but it's about getting people like
larger exposure outside of their network. Talk to me about
how that works, David, Sure, absolutely so.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
On the PR side, primary focus is to generate any
coverage that we can that highlight the book, the author,
their thought, leadership, their brand, et cetera. So much of
that happens in the digital space today, whether it's the
digital side of tradition media like a fast Company dot
com or a Fortune dot com or Force dot com,
but in any subject, whether it's leadership, management, HR, training, sales, marketing, entrepreneurship, TECHNOLOGYAI,
(10:11):
all these different things. There are loads of niche driven
sites that are targeted to audiences who are interested in
those topics as well as the general business umbrella. And
so again, based on who the target audience is, whether
it be for the book or whether it be for
an end user, where the ROI really comes into play.
We work with our clients to identify what are the
(10:34):
key messages that are going to relate to these audiences,
and then try to generate opportunities that come in the
form of guest articles, which is a huge part of
the landscape today.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Could be Q and a question today.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
It could be a podcast interview, could be a review,
it could be an excerpt, excuse me, could be a
news driven commentary based on something that's happening. That's what
we're doing for our clients, and by the end of
a campaign, when we work with someone, they'll have a
really nice portfolio of shaable content and coverage. If we
get you an article in Fast Company, the expectation should
be that thousands of people are going to go out
(11:06):
and buy your book. That just doesn't happen anymore. I
wish it did, but it's what the great logo to
have on the website. It's great to post up on LinkedIn.
And that's the other thing people need to be careful
about is how they share their information. Is you probably
know LinkedIn it's kind of become this personal advertising platform
for people. The Hey, look at the kind of thing
it's really to be about engagement, and so when you
(11:27):
post try to do an engaging fashion instead of just saying, hey,
look at this article I wrote. Say here's an article
I wrote addressing problem X. What are your biggest challenges
with problem act and doing to solve them? So hopefully
you get some response from back and forth that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, it makes sense. I find that more people that
understand that it is an engagement site and it's more
about driving conversations than it is about just like Instagram,
where to look at my new puppy. Great, there it is,
and keep on throwing. Not a lot of value there
in terms of business, but again, it all depends on
(12:02):
what you're going for, because I'm sure you know a
lot of the folks that you're working with are selling services, right.
They're not selling necessarily a product that you buy off
this shelf, which tends to work better for Instagram, right
because you have your glamour shots of the product and
all these different things. But it's very hard to sell
a service on a TikTok or Instagram or things like that.
(12:23):
And so that's where I find that the type of
work you're doing, where it's showing hey, look I've got
all these other people who have voted on my expertise.
It gives me more credibility, builds a bigger reputation, And
to your point, I can imagine that once people engage
with you and they build up that sort of extra reputation,
(12:45):
that just continues on to more speaking events, more book sales,
more outreach, and then as that builds, that's leading to
all the other things that are helping them achieve their goals.
Right where they're getting bigger speaking events, maybe more paid
speaking events, because that's something I hear a lot of
folks that are interested in if they're in professional services
(13:07):
as well. Right, huge part of it in it's speaking's challenging.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
It used to be fifteen twenty years ago everybody wanted
to be an author, and by now everybody holding me
be an author, and now everybody wants to be a
speaker and really challenge it. There are a lot of
talented people with great information, but finding people to bring
you in and speak, and they're done at all different
price points. Obviously, there are a lot of great speakers
bureaus in the country, but unless you're somebody who's bringing
(13:34):
in real dollars, they're not really proactively promoting the five
thousand or seven thousand dollars speaker.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
They're in the business of doing business. That's kind of
business it can't. Yeah, So it's a hustle for sure.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
And the other thing too, it's there's a lot of
diversity in what people are doing with books.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Now.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
We get involved with best seller campaigns for coamples of
Amlazman and Barnes and Noble to the c suite executive network.
There are campaigns that you can try to do for
the New York Times and orchestra those kinds of things.
So those are important. I work with digital marketing campaigns
that are going on. There's influencer marketing campaigns going on.
I have clients who we can get their books into
(14:12):
luxury hotels for business travelers to pick up. So there's
no shortage of interesting opportunities to promote books.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And brands out there.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
They just have to make sense for again goals, needs
and budgets.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, and I think you know once because again the
whole idea at least my perspective, and you can tell
me if I'm wrong or not, But is that once
you've got that book out there, there's an air of
authority that just comes coat yep with it, and it
can really open up doors and change conversations very quickly
(14:50):
with people who think, oh, this isn't a fly by
night person, this isn't a pyramid scheme or whatever whatever
I think you're writing.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
What I was tell clients is you want what you're
doing to be a tipping point for you.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So let's say you're a consultant, you're a management consultant
or leadership consultant or a coach, and you're talking to
a perspective client. They're talking to you, and they're talking
to somebody else. You hand them your new book, the
four articles you just had published, the three podcasts that
you just did. Oh, by the way, was just recently
an Amazon bestseller or something like that. You hope that
to acts as a tipping point, and that client goes, oh, yeah,
(15:24):
you know what, I see that Kurt's really out there
doing this, like he's the guy I'm going to go with.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yes, really what you're looking for? Right?
Speaker 4 (15:30):
And you have to look at these things very much.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
With a mid marathon view.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
It's very difficult to sprint through and all of a
sudden becoming overnight senstation there. We actually live in a
world where that can happen. Right through the virtual world
all that, but not typically for book authors.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, it seems the faster it comes, the faster it
goes too.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
For a lot of people, for sure. For sure. Yeah,
it's a little bit of an endurance race.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Your book is not just viable on your publication data
and for the next month or two, your book is
your business card and you're going to utilize it for
as long as you can, and then you can update it,
you can write another one, you can. But they are
great promotional tools for media just personally, for LinkedIn and
all those other things.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, it's such a different class of deliverable versus a
YouTube channel, podcast, even a workshop or things like that.
It's this cornerstone piece to your services and your business
and your approach and your perspective and everything that can
sit there and be this rock that everything can circle around,
(16:32):
and it can all you can always anchor back to it.
It's such a wonderful thing, but it is. It's a
lot of work. It's I've written two books now and
it's a lot. It's a lot of work, and and
so I think there's a reverence with people, right, it's it.
And again I'm not comparing it with this. But when
you graduate from being a lawyer or a doctor whatever,
people are like, oh, wow, that's why that's why you
(16:54):
get called doctor because you went through so much schooling, right,
Or that's why you get called general because you went
through the military. Result. You know, that's how your addressed
as a person. Right, there's something to do that.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, absolutely, there's definitely value to it. And like you said,
it is that sort of instant authority, and then by
getting media covers, that's more validation for your authority at
getting reviews and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, you're having.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
For so before I engage with someone like your stuff
in your services, dude, what are some of the questions
I should be asking myself? Or obviously, like I wrote
a book, I've got a target audience, and now I
would just want more attention to that thing. Is it
that simple? A cop? And I say, David, I need
more attention to my thing or what?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Look, I think you want to think about think you
want to think about what your goals are? You know
who your target audiences are.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I think you need to think about a budget. And
that's fine.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
You can also do an exploratory call. I'm happy to
talk to anybody anytime, say hey, here are your options
and here are the costs. And I'm very candid with people.
If they say I've got a budget of a five hundred
dollars month, I'm probably not the person for you, and
you may not find someone at that rate that's really good.
But here's an alternative of what you might be able
to do, or that sort of thing. But it's important
(18:07):
to know. I think understanding your budgets is important. And
I always tell people don't spend money that's going to
cost you paying your mortgage, showing how the light's paying
for you it's college, or any of those other things,
because results from all of this stuff are subjective, right,
that's it.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, it's hard to really put a dollar figure on
the ROI exactly like you would maybe like track a
good conversion from like an advertisement on LinkedIn or something.
It's a different process. Yeah, But it's also you get.
The more you put into it, the more you get
out of its.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Absolutely, and if you really integrated into your marketing and
social and PR and sales efforts, it can be a
difference maker for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah. I think again, having that unique perspective and a
unique story is something that's key because, yeah, if you
just write a book called leadership for leaders who lead
and you're surprised that it gets drowned out there, You've
got to have a perspective, and is that something you
take into account when you go into the pr lane
(19:12):
with this. David is like, what's the unique perspective to
this or.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
In this book as best as pot or the background
of the person. So yeah, I just signed out a
campaign with a guy who is a Division I women's
basketball coach in the SEC, so that's a really interesting background.
I've got another client, a Olympic ping pong player, writing
about leadership and lessons from that. Those kinds of things
help distinguish them. Sometimes are harder to distinguish and find
(19:38):
those unique selling propositions. Again, we try to find a
way to say it. It makes a difference. Be a
little bit counterintuitive, be a little bit edgy, go against
the grain.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
A little bit.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
I've got a great author that I've been working with
probably now on his seventh book, and it's on negotiation
and it never split. The difference is a big popular
book out right, and he'll tell you the total opposite.
He said, absolutely something splitting the difference is on the
tensions of negotiation, and it's really interesting. And again it's
important to try to understand a lot of people don't
understand it about themselves, and so sometimes exploratory process to
(20:10):
try to actually figure it out, and sometimes a light
bulb goes off and they go, oh my god, I
never really thought about that, and I've never really graded
that into my own outreach efforts and.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Those kinds of things. So it's you know, it's a
helpful exercise for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
That's really smart. All right, Doe, I could talk to
you all day. I got lots more. You have to
have you back on the show sometimes in the future.
But if I want to get in touch with you,
if I want to learn more about the work you
do and and find out more and maybe take you
up on that to that free exploratory call, where do
I go and find the.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Best place to go is my website which is www
dot ratner pr dot com r A T N E
r PR dot com And I'm sure if you Google
search you'll find me on there. But happy to talk
to anybody in your audience about their book and ideas,
and for me, I can help anybody in any time
of the process, whether they haven't even thought about the
book they're going to write. I can help them find ghostwriters,
(21:02):
sort of anything that goes on in the industry. I
have wonderful partners I can help people.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Will Yeah, I definitely suggest to your audience take up
David on this. He's probably forgotten more than most of
us will ever know about the publishing side of things.
So he's been a great resource. And thank you for
his time, and we'll have you about you again sometime soon. David,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I'm happy to do it. Thanks for having me. Kirk,
appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Thanks for tuning into another episode. If today's conversation resonated
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take a moment to leave a review on iTunes or
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(21:45):
dive deeper into the topics discussed on the show. For
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(22:06):
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It truly means everything. Until next time, take care and
keep moving forward.
Welcome to Schmidlst Episode two hundred and ninety. Today we're
joined by David Ratner, a seasoned pro with thirty years
of experience in book pr. David is all about helping
nonfiction authors, especially in the business world, use their books
to build brand equity and establish themselves as thought leaders.
If you've ever dreamed of writing a book, or just
(00:21):
want to understand the world of book publicity a little better,
this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss.
Stick around you'll be glad you did.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Dave, how are you today?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'm doing well, Kurt, how are you?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I am doing fantastic now that you're here. So, David,
I am excited to hear and about all this stuff.
I've got a lot of questions for you, Jo, but
let's start with you yourself and the background in the
business you do. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Sure, absolutely so. I've been in the book PR space
for of thirty years now. I previously ran one of
the larger agencies in the country and enjoyed that quite
a bit. But there came a time where I saw
the direction the book sales were going, and I really
wanted to work with people who are going to get
value out of publicity that went simply beyond the dollar
for dollar return on book sales. Today, selling books is
(01:08):
harder than ever. I tend to work with authors in
the nonfiction space, mostly in the business space, who really
see their book as an excellent tool for brand equity,
a great way to raise awareness for their thought leadership,
their business practices, to generate content that feeds their social
marketing and sales channels, all those other great things that
that new business card gives you.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
The bulk of my clients for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I love it. Okay, let's start with a class of
people that maybe are thinking about writing their first book,
their first business focused book. Maybe they like myself, I
went through a lot of challenges in the beginning where
I was like, oh, who wants to hear another story
about this? And what am I going to add to
that space? There's if you look on Amazon, if you
(01:52):
do a search, there's five hundred thousand books with the
title with leadership in the title. It's literally crazy. So
what's your advice for how people should be approaching this
as a person who's interested in doing it not only
because they want to get business from it, but they
want to put their voice out there.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
So first and foremost I said, go for okay, and
there is, Yes, there are spaces that are definitely crowded,
but there's room for everybody. And in terms of publishing
a book, today, everybody can do it right and there's
different options. It's very different than it was fifteen twenty
years ago, where you had to go to the traditional
route and it was challenging and such.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Today going to the traditional wore its steal really hard.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
But there are dozens of fantastics self publishing and hybrid
publishing companies that can help anyone navigate the process at
a variety of different price points. And I think, look,
it's really isn't for everybody about how many people read
your book and whether there's room for your book in
the space.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
It's how you utilize your book.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Right, your book as a tool. Right, it becomes you
new business card. In some ways, it gives you instant
validation for your authority and thought leadership. Very rare that
somebody looks on the spite of a book to see
who published it, to say, oh, that he get published
by a big publisher.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
I'm sure there are some books that do that.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
But overall it's just a great tool to share your knowledge,
your information as a way to generate coverage. Like the
media and the work that I do. The beauty of
books is as a product in the media world is
that books get a free pass because their information, their
education to a certain depth or entertainment, and so it's
a lot easier to promote somebody's consulting practice or other
(03:32):
businesses that they have under the auspices of the book
versus just trying to promote a product.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
And when they comes to what is successful and what
you've seen successful with that in mindset that you just
talked about, what's the approach, the format, the size, give
me some more respecs about what books should look like
in shape like in order to be that you find
really fun to work with.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, physically it's a good question. I'm not sure I
think you stand sized books fit. What I do think
is that we live in a very short attention span.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Society today snow.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I think writing a three hundred and fifty page book
is probably not the best idea. I would say keeping
it to two hundred and twenty pages or below is
probably ideal. I also think writing it in digestible format
so that people can walk away reading a chapter or
two with some takeaways. I think that's really valuable. I
always tell people, really think about your unique selling propositions.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Right there.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
There's lots of books on lots of topics, and sometimes
it's not what you say, but it's sometimes how you
say it. When you think about personal finance books for instance,
right Robert Kiyosaki came up with the rich dad, Poor
dad concept, and David Bach came up with the latte factor,
and Susie Orman's Empowering Women, and a lot of them
will tell you the same thing, pay yourself first.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
And all these other things.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
But if you have a unique way of delivering the message,
that certainly helps.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, I can imagine, because it dovetail into the work
that you're doing. Right, Because if there's a good hook,
there's a title. If there's a good message behind who
this book is for, it's clearly targeted. I must make
your job a little bit easier versus this is a
leadership book for leaders that lead. There's seriously notes, yes.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
But in the look at the world that we live
in the book pr world that we do look we
can get coverage for anyone for the most part. So sure,
a lot of people, I'm sure worry. Am I a
good enough source for this information? Leave that up to
the experts who you work with to help you do that.
A lot of us have great connections out there and
we're able to navigate that landscape very successfully for our clients.
(05:38):
And look, I'm a big believer in anything that you
do is understand your why. So why are you writing
this book right? Who are you writing it for? What
are your goals? It was even working backwards sometimes makes
a lot of sense, But it's important think about all
those things up front because deal with a lot of clients.
I think my lowlow on my website used to say,
you've written the book, now what? And I run into
(05:59):
a lot of people who that's exactly what happens. You
really should be thinking about the now what from day one? Yeah,
because that really.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Is key because then I want to transition into how
you approach it because I know a lot of people
that write books and they're like, Okay, great, now I'm
going to share it with people I know, and then
it'll be on Amazon, and then I'll get some speaking
events and things, and then after the kickoff, and I've
experienced this too. After you have the launch and all
(06:29):
these things, the interest in the declient goes pretty sharp
after the big reveal, and I guess that's where you
like to jump into. Is now the books out there
we jump in? So tell me a bit about how
do you Is it every book custom or is there
a framework that you like to follow?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
I think from the PRS look, First of all, everything
is done based on goals, needs, budgets and other factors.
I have clients who literally will spend significant amounts of
money of other clients who don't have those reals worses
but want to try to do something. So everything that
I do is customized, and I always work with the
philosophy that I give you lots of options. I don't
tell you what to do, but I will help you
(07:09):
think about each of these options.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Eyes wide open.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Okay, if we're going to do this campaign, what are
our goals? What should we expect out of it? And
try to make sure that everybody's expectations are met and everybody.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Has a clearer understanding.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
It really depends on the resources, you know what. I
will tell clients one of the first questions they'll say
to me is I'm going to do this four month
publicity campaign, which is the standard kind of campaign that
we start with how many books.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Will I sell?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
And my answer is always start with zero. And if
the work that we do for you is valuable, let's
continue the conversation.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
But if you are.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Completely reliant or relying on the fact that you're going
to get a return on your investment in terms of
book sales, but I was told the pretty much keep
their money in their pocket because it's.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
A very difficult thing to achieve.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Authors today are going to, especially in the business world,
are going to be responsible for their sales. It's why
so many are going the hybrid and the publishing route
because they're being in all the work. And then if
you're with the traditional publisher, your royalty rate is significantly smaller,
but they want you out pushing it. They're not doing
a whole lot to sell books these days anymore, because
(08:11):
it's difficult understand that your network is your most valuable asset.
It's not about just asking everybody to review it on Amazon.
It's really thinking about your network and who to ask
for what. Maybe somebody who would be interested in having
you speak to their senior leadership team in return for
buying fifty copies of the book, right, or maybe somebody
else of endorsement. Maybe somebody else has a strong social
(08:33):
media following, so you can ask them to post for
it and look it's You also have to try to
make these things as easy as possible for people, because
you're going to make a lot of asks. Some people
are not going to respond, some are going to say
yes with the best of intentions and nothing happens, and
then others will be your advocates. And for those who are,
you want to make it as easy as possible for them.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, it makes sense. I know with my book putting together,
when I ask people for to promote it, make a
post or do these things, I always try to share
with them, like a little blurb about what the book's
about and who it's for. The more you like you
were just saying, the more I can give them to
prying the pump as it or the faster and easier
it becomes. Becauseboddy looking at a blank slate and I
(09:16):
need to write a review. It's just so you know,
this is the goals of the book and things, and
then just respond to the goals of the book. Don't
try to just write a review or a post or
share something based on just your memory of reading the
entire book. So I'm guessing that kind of works the
same when you're going out for media stuff, because when
you talk about PR, it's not even just about the
(09:38):
work you're doing there, but it's about getting people like
larger exposure outside of their network. Talk to me about
how that works, David, Sure, absolutely so.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
On the PR side, primary focus is to generate any
coverage that we can that highlight the book, the author,
their thought, leadership, their brand, et cetera. So much of
that happens in the digital space today, whether it's the
digital side of tradition media like a fast Company dot
com or a Fortune dot com or Force dot com,
but in any subject, whether it's leadership, management, HR, training, sales, marketing, entrepreneurship, TECHNOLOGYAI,
(10:11):
all these different things. There are loads of niche driven
sites that are targeted to audiences who are interested in
those topics as well as the general business umbrella. And
so again, based on who the target audience is, whether
it be for the book or whether it be for
an end user, where the ROI really comes into play.
We work with our clients to identify what are the
(10:34):
key messages that are going to relate to these audiences,
and then try to generate opportunities that come in the
form of guest articles, which is a huge part of
the landscape today.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Could be Q and a question today.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
It could be a podcast interview, could be a review,
it could be an excerpt, excuse me, could be a
news driven commentary based on something that's happening. That's what
we're doing for our clients, and by the end of
a campaign, when we work with someone, they'll have a
really nice portfolio of shaable content and coverage. If we
get you an article in Fast Company, the expectation should
be that thousands of people are going to go out
(11:06):
and buy your book. That just doesn't happen anymore. I
wish it did, but it's what the great logo to
have on the website. It's great to post up on LinkedIn.
And that's the other thing people need to be careful
about is how they share their information. Is you probably
know LinkedIn it's kind of become this personal advertising platform
for people. The Hey, look at the kind of thing
it's really to be about engagement, and so when you
(11:27):
post try to do an engaging fashion instead of just saying, hey,
look at this article I wrote. Say here's an article
I wrote addressing problem X. What are your biggest challenges
with problem act and doing to solve them? So hopefully
you get some response from back and forth that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, it makes sense. I find that more people that
understand that it is an engagement site and it's more
about driving conversations than it is about just like Instagram,
where to look at my new puppy. Great, there it is,
and keep on throwing. Not a lot of value there
in terms of business, but again, it all depends on
(12:02):
what you're going for, because I'm sure you know a
lot of the folks that you're working with are selling services, right.
They're not selling necessarily a product that you buy off
this shelf, which tends to work better for Instagram, right
because you have your glamour shots of the product and
all these different things. But it's very hard to sell
a service on a TikTok or Instagram or things like that.
(12:23):
And so that's where I find that the type of
work you're doing, where it's showing hey, look I've got
all these other people who have voted on my expertise.
It gives me more credibility, builds a bigger reputation, And
to your point, I can imagine that once people engage
with you and they build up that sort of extra reputation,
(12:45):
that just continues on to more speaking events, more book sales,
more outreach, and then as that builds, that's leading to
all the other things that are helping them achieve their goals.
Right where they're getting bigger speaking events, maybe more paid
speaking events, because that's something I hear a lot of
folks that are interested in if they're in professional services
(13:07):
as well. Right, huge part of it in it's speaking's challenging.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
It used to be fifteen twenty years ago everybody wanted
to be an author, and by now everybody holding me
be an author, and now everybody wants to be a
speaker and really challenge it. There are a lot of
talented people with great information, but finding people to bring
you in and speak, and they're done at all different
price points. Obviously, there are a lot of great speakers
bureaus in the country, but unless you're somebody who's bringing
(13:34):
in real dollars, they're not really proactively promoting the five
thousand or seven thousand dollars speaker.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
They're in the business of doing business. That's kind of
business it can't. Yeah, So it's a hustle for sure.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
And the other thing too, it's there's a lot of
diversity in what people are doing with books.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Now.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
We get involved with best seller campaigns for coamples of
Amlazman and Barnes and Noble to the c suite executive network.
There are campaigns that you can try to do for
the New York Times and orchestra those kinds of things.
So those are important. I work with digital marketing campaigns
that are going on. There's influencer marketing campaigns going on.
I have clients who we can get their books into
(14:12):
luxury hotels for business travelers to pick up. So there's
no shortage of interesting opportunities to promote books.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And brands out there.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
They just have to make sense for again goals, needs
and budgets.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, and I think you know once because again the
whole idea at least my perspective, and you can tell
me if I'm wrong or not, But is that once
you've got that book out there, there's an air of
authority that just comes coat yep with it, and it
can really open up doors and change conversations very quickly
(14:50):
with people who think, oh, this isn't a fly by
night person, this isn't a pyramid scheme or whatever whatever
I think you're writing.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
What I was tell clients is you want what you're
doing to be a tipping point for you.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So let's say you're a consultant, you're a management consultant
or leadership consultant or a coach, and you're talking to
a perspective client. They're talking to you, and they're talking
to somebody else. You hand them your new book, the
four articles you just had published, the three podcasts that
you just did. Oh, by the way, was just recently
an Amazon bestseller or something like that. You hope that
to acts as a tipping point, and that client goes, oh, yeah,
(15:24):
you know what, I see that Kurt's really out there
doing this, like he's the guy I'm going to go with.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yes, really what you're looking for? Right?
Speaker 4 (15:30):
And you have to look at these things very much.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
With a mid marathon view.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
It's very difficult to sprint through and all of a
sudden becoming overnight senstation there. We actually live in a
world where that can happen. Right through the virtual world
all that, but not typically for book authors.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, it seems the faster it comes, the faster it
goes too.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
For a lot of people, for sure. For sure. Yeah,
it's a little bit of an endurance race.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Your book is not just viable on your publication data
and for the next month or two, your book is
your business card and you're going to utilize it for
as long as you can, and then you can update it,
you can write another one, you can. But they are
great promotional tools for media just personally, for LinkedIn and
all those other things.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, it's such a different class of deliverable versus a
YouTube channel, podcast, even a workshop or things like that.
It's this cornerstone piece to your services and your business
and your approach and your perspective and everything that can
sit there and be this rock that everything can circle around,
(16:32):
and it can all you can always anchor back to it.
It's such a wonderful thing, but it is. It's a
lot of work. It's I've written two books now and
it's a lot. It's a lot of work, and and
so I think there's a reverence with people, right, it's it.
And again I'm not comparing it with this. But when
you graduate from being a lawyer or a doctor whatever,
people are like, oh, wow, that's why that's why you
(16:54):
get called doctor because you went through so much schooling, right,
Or that's why you get called general because you went
through the military. Result. You know, that's how your addressed
as a person. Right, there's something to do that.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, absolutely, there's definitely value to it. And like you said,
it is that sort of instant authority, and then by
getting media covers, that's more validation for your authority at
getting reviews and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, you're having.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
For so before I engage with someone like your stuff
in your services, dude, what are some of the questions
I should be asking myself? Or obviously, like I wrote
a book, I've got a target audience, and now I
would just want more attention to that thing. Is it
that simple? A cop? And I say, David, I need
more attention to my thing or what?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Look, I think you want to think about think you
want to think about what your goals are? You know
who your target audiences are.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I think you need to think about a budget. And
that's fine.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
You can also do an exploratory call. I'm happy to
talk to anybody anytime, say hey, here are your options
and here are the costs. And I'm very candid with people.
If they say I've got a budget of a five hundred
dollars month, I'm probably not the person for you, and
you may not find someone at that rate that's really good.
But here's an alternative of what you might be able
to do, or that sort of thing. But it's important
(18:07):
to know. I think understanding your budgets is important. And
I always tell people don't spend money that's going to
cost you paying your mortgage, showing how the light's paying
for you it's college, or any of those other things,
because results from all of this stuff are subjective, right,
that's it.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, it's hard to really put a dollar figure on
the ROI exactly like you would maybe like track a
good conversion from like an advertisement on LinkedIn or something.
It's a different process. Yeah, But it's also you get.
The more you put into it, the more you get
out of its.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Absolutely, and if you really integrated into your marketing and
social and PR and sales efforts, it can be a
difference maker for sure.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah. I think again, having that unique perspective and a
unique story is something that's key because, yeah, if you
just write a book called leadership for leaders who lead
and you're surprised that it gets drowned out there, You've
got to have a perspective, and is that something you
take into account when you go into the pr lane
(19:12):
with this. David is like, what's the unique perspective to
this or.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
In this book as best as pot or the background
of the person. So yeah, I just signed out a
campaign with a guy who is a Division I women's
basketball coach in the SEC, so that's a really interesting background.
I've got another client, a Olympic ping pong player, writing
about leadership and lessons from that. Those kinds of things
help distinguish them. Sometimes are harder to distinguish and find
(19:38):
those unique selling propositions. Again, we try to find a
way to say it. It makes a difference. Be a
little bit counterintuitive, be a little bit edgy, go against
the grain.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
A little bit.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
I've got a great author that I've been working with
probably now on his seventh book, and it's on negotiation
and it never split. The difference is a big popular
book out right, and he'll tell you the total opposite.
He said, absolutely something splitting the difference is on the
tensions of negotiation, and it's really interesting. And again it's
important to try to understand a lot of people don't
understand it about themselves, and so sometimes exploratory process to
(20:10):
try to actually figure it out, and sometimes a light
bulb goes off and they go, oh my god, I
never really thought about that, and I've never really graded
that into my own outreach efforts and.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Those kinds of things. So it's you know, it's a
helpful exercise for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
That's really smart. All right, Doe, I could talk to
you all day. I got lots more. You have to
have you back on the show sometimes in the future.
But if I want to get in touch with you,
if I want to learn more about the work you
do and and find out more and maybe take you
up on that to that free exploratory call, where do
I go and find the.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Best place to go is my website which is www
dot ratner pr dot com r A T N E
r PR dot com And I'm sure if you Google
search you'll find me on there. But happy to talk
to anybody in your audience about their book and ideas,
and for me, I can help anybody in any time
of the process, whether they haven't even thought about the
book they're going to write. I can help them find ghostwriters,
(21:02):
sort of anything that goes on in the industry. I
have wonderful partners I can help people.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Will Yeah, I definitely suggest to your audience take up
David on this. He's probably forgotten more than most of
us will ever know about the publishing side of things.
So he's been a great resource. And thank you for
his time, and we'll have you about you again sometime soon. David,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
I'm happy to do it. Thanks for having me. Kirk,
appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Thanks for tuning into another episode. If today's conversation resonated
with you, it would be greatly appreciated if you could
take a moment to leave a review on iTunes or
Spotify reviews, help others find the show and make a
big difference. To stay in the loop, head over to
kirschmitt dot net, where Kurt shares resources and insights that
(21:45):
dive deeper into the topics discussed on the show. For
those serious about leveling up their business, Kurt's coaching services
at Schmidt Consulting dot Group may be just what they're
looking for. Have someone in mind with a story worth sharing,
someone who'd make a great guest. Kurt would love to
hear about them. Feel free to send him suggestions on LinkedIn,
(22:06):
and before you go, don't forget to hit the subscribe
button to stay up to date. Thanks so much for listening,
It truly means everything. Until next time, take care and
keep moving forward.
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