November 5, 2024 • 40 mins
In this compelling episode of Schmidt List, host Kurt Schmidt interviews Todd Fonseca, who shares his journey from corporate life to becoming an entrepreneur and leadership coach. Fonseca discusses his career transition and the importance of leadership and personal development.
He recalls a pivotal moment during a corporate talent review that led him to explore nonverbal communication and body language. This insight turned him into a certified body language trainer and hypnotist, enhancing his coaching skills.
Fonseca outlines his approach to managing organizational change, focusing on psychological safety, capability, and accountability. He addresses fears around change, particularly during layoffs and the rise of AI, and offers advice on building a resilient workforce. With Kurt Schmidt, they explore leadership challenges, like balancing authority with approachability and the importance of transparent communication. They introduce frameworks like the SCARF and TAPS models to help leaders in complex situations.
From stories of compassionate management to strategies for maintaining processes during upheavals, Fonseca and Schmidt provide valuable insights for leaders. Tune in to learn how to lead authentically and effectively in uncertain times. Don’t miss Todd Fonseca’s advice on sustaining morale and productivity and Kurt Schmidt’s reflections on leadership. Whether facing structural changes or looking to improve your leadership, this episode offers actionable insights to help your team thrive.
LInkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddafonseca/
Website: https://www.thriving9to5.com/
Visit Kurt’s coaching site at https://schmidtconsulting.group
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/schmidt-list-entrepreneurial-insights--2664825/support.
He recalls a pivotal moment during a corporate talent review that led him to explore nonverbal communication and body language. This insight turned him into a certified body language trainer and hypnotist, enhancing his coaching skills.
Fonseca outlines his approach to managing organizational change, focusing on psychological safety, capability, and accountability. He addresses fears around change, particularly during layoffs and the rise of AI, and offers advice on building a resilient workforce. With Kurt Schmidt, they explore leadership challenges, like balancing authority with approachability and the importance of transparent communication. They introduce frameworks like the SCARF and TAPS models to help leaders in complex situations.
From stories of compassionate management to strategies for maintaining processes during upheavals, Fonseca and Schmidt provide valuable insights for leaders. Tune in to learn how to lead authentically and effectively in uncertain times. Don’t miss Todd Fonseca’s advice on sustaining morale and productivity and Kurt Schmidt’s reflections on leadership. Whether facing structural changes or looking to improve your leadership, this episode offers actionable insights to help your team thrive.
LInkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddafonseca/
Website: https://www.thriving9to5.com/
Visit Kurt’s coaching site at https://schmidtconsulting.group
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/schmidt-list-entrepreneurial-insights--2664825/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Solopreneurs looking for a supportive community of like minded
independent business owners Join the Solo Club, an exclusive peer
advisory group designed to help you grow your business with
expert guidance and personalized strategies. You'll meet bi weekly to
share ideas, solve problems, and push each other towards success.
Visit Schmidt Consulting Dot group to learn more and apply today.
(00:23):
Don't build your business alone. We're excited to have you
join us.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to Schmidt List. Today's guest Todd Fonseca, shifted from
corporate exec to leadership coach, specializing in body language and hypnosis.
Discover his insights on transforming inner narratives into leadership success
and authentic change management.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Join us dot. How are you today, Hey, Kurt, Thanks
so much for having me. Hey reopening, by the way,
that was pretty cool. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, after two hundred and eighty episodes, you would hope
I will get good at every now everything else. To
tell me about the work you do and on who
you're working with these days?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Kurtin when I
was thinking about what I do and who I work with,
I think all comes down to, frankly, one incident that
happened in my thirty years of corporate life. If you
could believe that it would all come back to one
incident and it has to do with a.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Work Nope, is it like a spring Is Seinfeld puppy
shirt kind of story by quiet?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
But you know what it's like being a corporate America.
We would do talent pipeline reviews. Who was the next
generation that's going to be this leader in that? Yeah,
and we're working about one particular person who worked for
me and I thought he's ready for the vice president level.
He's better director for years and so on and so forth.
And when I hand this review, you can see everybody
around the table kind of give you these kind of
(01:49):
feedback and yeah, exactly, So I like you just responded
to Hi'm like, okay, so what's going on here? What's
the deal with this particular person? What are they doing?
They shouldn't be here, what do they need to do
that they're not And it was pretty quiet in the room,
and eventually one brave person sort of raises their hands says,
they wear those short sleeve planned shirts all the time.
(02:10):
I said, okay, So this really got into this discussion
of sort of how people show up right there? Confidence,
are they genuine? Whatever words you want to use that
or served out there on the zeitgeistuff, Hey, they're just
not showing up the way that I want them to.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We used to have a rule at my old agency,
no open toad shoes. Nobody wants to see your toasts,
not for any other reason. Nobody wants to see what
was it?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Oh man, that could take me off in another rabbit hole,
but I'm not going to so with that. Anteed, it
for me it was like, Okay, what's what's going on here? Right?
What's this whole thing around presence for this particular person.
So I started doing some research. I'm engineered by training,
so I wanted to look at the science and frankly,
I looked at whydy language First, Okay, what's going on?
Maybe the nonverbal communications person is sending off We know
(02:57):
it's a large majority of how we communicate. Eventually I
became a body language strainer. I got certified in this
whole space of nonverbal communication. What I founded when I
work with people with their nonverbal communication was you could
tell them what things mean and what to do. But
it became a little robotic for them. Right, So I'm like,
how do you make sure this is now actually part
(03:18):
of who you are? And so this got me thinking
about it has something to do with whatever the inner
story is you're telling yourself is also sort of the
outer story that ends up showing up. Yeah, yeah, no,
I've can help it.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
You could tell people the body language, but if their
inner story doesn't jib or be congrolled with it, it
just doesn't happen. So that actually got me into hypnosis,
what bitter way to understand sort of the secret things
within your subconscious mind. So I became a certifi and
imotist in the process as well. Can you tell I
like to go get these certifications?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
It really entered going on, there's a lot of rabbit
holes at your house, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Or are my core wife? Anyways, we'll still really storytelling.
How do you auge people aspire them really getting into
their own mind? And so I started taking all these
things and frankly teaching them within the corporate environment, people
who work for me or whatever. It caught the eye
of our learning and development so it's within the company
and they said, hey, why don't you teach a workshop
(04:17):
for our different development leaders. Once you are at our
programs that our directors and vice presidents really get into
because we want them to be sort of the next leadership.
So I did, and this became sort of the thing
I was known for. Eventually they paid for me to
become a certified coach and I would work with vice
presidents and general managers basically helping them up. I retired
(04:38):
from the land of corporate World Liberal lover a couple
of years ago, became one of the entrepreneurs that you
talked about at the beginning of your show. Have been
doing that for a couple of years. And so who
do I work with. I work with the same types
of foks, right leaders and frankly teams. They're kind of
stagnant where they are from one reason or another. They're
not either alloping career and leveling up where the teams
(04:59):
are moving forward way that they need to be. So
work with them to help them get there. And what's
been great about it is helping them get there, not
at the way they think they should by a quip
no on whatever set of leadership skills they're supposed to learn,
or the corporate code or whatever you want to call it,
but really helping them get there with a place with
they Now, hey, you know what, this actually feels good.
This is leadership that sort of feels like me versus
(05:20):
something else somebody else is telling me to do. So
there you go a little bit of a story. But
that's that's you. When I do when where I work
with no I love it. That's that helps.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's super helpful, and I know the audience appreciates it
because especially my generation, I'm jen X and this idea
of coaching wasn't a thing. I mean even therapy was
not really a thing. And my leadership journey, I was
kind of thrust into a management position because I was
put in charge of hiring and growing the team. And
(05:50):
so they were like, you're hiring the people, so you
got to be in charge of them, and so I
immediately my first thought was, Okay, how do you manage
these people? I know, I'll make all of them my
best friend and then they all want to work for
me and they all be super happy. And what a
disaster that was. And then when I went to my
next role, the pendulum, I swung the pendulum really hard
(06:12):
the other way where I was like, Okay, I'm going
to be the Jack Welsh of this software development. I'm
gonna iron fist, big thumb, and everybody's going to be
under it. And that did not obviously did not work
out well. And then I started really having a hard
time finding the balance of how do I be friends
(06:35):
with these people but also have respect and authority with
them as well. And that took me years to get
good at and I believe I did get good at it.
Still I still have a lot of people ten years later,
fifteen years later saying oh, I always loved to have
it and was a boss. It was great, blah blah blah.
(06:55):
So I mean, I'm very I'm very lucky. But I
was also not a shame to show up vulnerable and
show that I didn't know everything and I needed their
help to get good at what I was doing. But
I realized a lot of the peers around me really
struggled with that, and I ended up kind of being
a pseudo coach in certain cases. And I can imagine
(07:18):
your journey was kind of similar where it came that
empathy and that vulnerability came a little bit more natural
for you, but it doesn't for everybody.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, it's hard, it's hard to listen to your story
without replaying help. Yep, went through that phase. Yep went
went through the face. Well, we're sort of stumbling upon
it on your own in many ways, even though there
were maybe some leadership development courses here and there that
the company might pay for. But you know what I
really appreciated what what you said is sort of the
situational leadership. Hey, when do you need to lean in here?
(07:47):
When you need to pull off? Pull back there? And
there's a great tool actually that it came across our
little models, right, being an engineer, Hey, how do you
put things into a model? It's called the TAPS model
till ask problem solution And it's exactly what fucking right?
Which quadrant are you operating in? Are you always telling people?
Are you always focusing on a problem? And the key
is no one of these CoA drones is the right one.
(08:09):
It's situational. You change when you need to coach, when
you need to mentor when you need to be a
consultant and so on. It's about being intentional and then
also see what people need. And that's a lot of
what what But yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I mean my father told me how a long time ago,
my father, who was a minister, taught me a lot
about working with with people, and he was always like,
don't listen, listen with half an ear, but understand what
their motivation is, why they're in front of you, what
are they trying to accomplish, don't don't necessarily hang on
the words as much. And to your point about body language,
(08:43):
I think that's fascinating because because people are they're like ogres.
They have layers, right people, and if you're just focused
on that outer layer when they show up, and you're
going to get frustrated very very easily, because if you
old try to understand what's coming from behind that and
what's motivating them to have these discussions. So I used
(09:06):
to have this employee all the time that was very
chicken little. Everything was like, oh my gosh, I'm showing
up at your office because this thing, these people are
doing this thing and it's going to destroy the company.
And then they'd show up and they'd be like, and
this person is doing this thing and it's going to
destroy the company. And initially I'd jump up from my
chair and run like, okay, let's go to war battle,
(09:28):
let's go. And then I'd find out like it was
there's nothing. But I realized over time with this person
that was their kind of way of getting attention, that
the saying saying I'm I'm important, look at look at
how important I am, and realize how important I am.
And not in a bad way, not in a nefarious way.
They're doing this because their motivation was that they want
(09:51):
you recognized, and that was the way that they understood
recognition happened to them. So I had to work, but
it took a while. I had to work with this
person find other avenues for them to show that they
were appreciated and that they were valuable and that they
had they had value in the organization without having to
always show up and have a problem to run. So
(10:12):
the reason why I tell that story, Todd, is because
I'm sure you've run into this these sorts of situations
before where you've got that one person that you're like,
should we just let them go because it's weird, or
should I double down and put effort into them? And
what's what's your advice when a leader is facing that
(10:34):
that kind of tipping point?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, I think I always aired probably too hard on
the stick with a person too lock frankly any thinking
most people do, how can I make this work right?
How can I find that spark or whatever else? And
it's hard to know, right, And I think what I
learned is a lot of what you just articulate, And
that's what's that next layer down. What's really going on here?
(10:58):
What are they afraid of? Inspired by, motivated by, or
whatever else? What's coming out instead of listening to the words,
listening to you, or trying to feel whatever the emotion
is behind all of that? And so now does this
come down to a capability question? And they're working for
a place of fear that's why they're not leading in
or you just can't know. And I've seen both, right,
I Mean there's some people are like, hey, they've been
(11:18):
promoted to a level of living competence. I'm sure you've
heard that before, and now they're much a protective mode.
I've had leaders who led organizations that should have never
been leaders, that they didn't like leading, they didn't like people,
and they would admit that, Oh yeah, then the great
thing to do there is put them at a role
if you can that they can succeed in. I have
one individual she did a director for years and then
(11:40):
after the first couple of months, I said, look, I'm
not going to have you lead people anymore. I'm going
to have you do this strategic work with our global partners.
It's where you're good, it's where you're smart. At first
she said I can't do this, I'm going to leave.
I'm like, I'm still going to make this change. Six
months later she said, I've never been happy. Yeah, of
course right now. Some of it's a trust your and
(12:00):
I would say I've always aired personally again, I'm waiting
too long take action shooter rather thanely.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, I've been that person where I'm like, I will
drag you kicking and screaming to success in the past.
And it's hard because and I want to talk about
accountability here, because you got in some ways hold yourself accountable,
which is I think one of the hardest things to
do as a as a leader in an organization, because
it's really hard to go to your boss and say, like,
(12:28):
I don't have control of my team.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
You can't do that.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
And it's much like why I've seen these bad leaders
years after you, because the way organizations are set up
is that if you want to make more money and
if you have more influence, then you've.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Got to manage people.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And the boss comes to you and says, Todd, I
think you're great. I want you to run the team,
and you're like, I have no interest in doing that,
but I'm never going to say no to more money
and more influence in the organization. I begrudgingly take the promotion,
and then I spend the next year is making people's
lives hell because it's the only way the company has
(13:04):
shown me I have value. So to your point, if
you can't, as a good leader, come up with those
avenues where individual contributors can have the same amount of impact, power,
whatever you want to call it, influence, value, and money.
As the people who are running teams, you're going to
constantly be creating this problem over and over again.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah. Yeah, so it's very true. You're exactly right. And Manyth,
that comes down to what you were saying earlier, is
it turns out that we're not all the same go
figure and go figure in the world doesn't apply it management,
he says, say, Oh, treat everybody like you want to
be treated, lead everybody like you'd like to be led,
or manage people the way you want to be managed,
and it doesn't work. It turns out that everybody wants
(13:47):
to be managed the same way I want to be managed.
Some people, to your point, would want to come in
every day and sort of check in for whatever reason.
You're going to get more a pummet. I'm like, that
is not me. And frankly, at first I'm thinking, why
you need this? I throwing some vibe off where that's
when I go back right.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Now, Yeah, if I tell it, am, I'm letting you
think that I don't trust Wow.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
And so it's the opposite. So you really have to decide, Okay,
how much am I willing to really spend the time
to understand the person behind the person and what they
need and then be situational how you mean, not just them,
let the situations that come up. And it's it's a
different set of skills that you really need to understand,
lean into and want to do. If you don't, that's cool, right,
find something else. But you just can't read people the
(14:29):
way you want to be let it's just as a work.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
When it comes to the idea of change in an organization,
it scares a lot of people, especially these days, because
you have these layoffs that have been happening like crazy
for the last eighteen months, and a lot of people
are scared. A couple of years ago, during the pandemic,
people were like, I'm working from home and they're like, no,
you can then fire me and they're like no, we'll
pay you more money. But now the pendulum's kind of
(14:53):
swung back and the employers are a bit more powerful
than they were, and so that's made people a lot
more afraid AID in general. And but people are doing
change because we've got things like AI showing up. There's
there's some predictions that like it's going to replace half
of the workforce, and then a lot of other people
are like maybe five percent of the workforce they'll get
(15:15):
replaced by AI. These these people are folks are worried
about change. How do you approach change management in the
in the work that you do? What what sort of
philosophy do you take when when you're coming in to
help implement change.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah, it's a great question. And really I start from
a foundational model and then show how it applies throughout
the change curse. So I'll tell you a little bit
about both. So for me and you just touched on
one of the three pillars that I really think are
critical for success in any company, and that is that
your employice have three things right. That they've got psychological safety,
which gets to your fear question, and we could talk
a little bit about what change happens, what really happens
(15:54):
to psychological safety. It's a concept that Amy emins and
in broadworth. The next capability, right, do I the skills,
the training, the support, the research, the dollars, the whatever
it might be, right, do I have the capability now
to do my job? And the third one is accountability
all right, to get all the people accountable to get
the work done of the way they need to get
it done. And so you really need all three of these,
(16:15):
and you can imagine each one of these are pillars.
If you have one, don't have the other two, or
you have two, or you don't have one, you're not
quite hitting on all thrusters we need. Are all three
right capable? We've got the resources we need to get
the job done. I'm being held accountable because I know
exactly what it is you expect of me, and when
it needs to get done, and it feels safe here
(16:35):
right then I don't feel like I'm going to lose
my job tomorrow, or there's cons of restructuring. AI is
going to take over my work. So there's got to
be this nice sweet spot of all three. Now we
need to talk about change. Change does reps almost all
of these, Right, You've got kind of your stems. People
are moving along do other thing. And there's something about
the sadder change model. Right, So some change kind of happens.
There's a merger, AI takes over some work, you have
(16:59):
a large reduction force, you restructure your staff, there's new processes,
whatever it might be, and there's sort of this period
of chaos, right because we don't know who the boss
is now maybe we're operating in a slightly different way
than we have before. And now what happens. Let's take
a look at psychological safety first, it goes down pretty fast.
Maybe half of the people used to work with now
(17:19):
just got laid off and you're thinking, am I going
to be the next person? And the way to think
about it, I mean there's this nice model called scarf
scarf right, So how important and these are the sort
of underpinnings of psychological safety. How much is status? That's
the first one is important? To an organization like if
(17:41):
it's always hierarchical in nature and status is always really important,
and you're not sure where you fit in that current hierarchy,
that creates a lot of uncertainty. Which is the next one,
see certainty. How much certainty you have about your job,
your boss, how you're going to perform. Will you have
a job in the next month? Are the basu projects
still around? The next one autonomy Are you clear that
(18:03):
you can make your old decisions? You can make your
own way in the organization. The R is relating this, Hey,
do I feel like I'm conducted to these folks? I mean,
I've been in organizations where suddenly your boss and all
the people you work with for ten years are gone. Now,
who are you a part of anymore? This is my
tribe anymore? If you will, it's all of these people.
They get to reclaim sort of what it is that
(18:24):
your expertise is and prove yourself all over again. And
then the last thing f is fairness. How fair does
this decision seem to be made? Is it based on
objective criterias? It feel sort of like, hey, it's this
person friend or this whole group over here, got let
go because they irritated the CEO or whatever else it
might be. So you really need to look at all
(18:46):
these to see and think about when change happens. Right,
Oh my gosh, I don't have autonom anymore because I
didn't have anything to do. It's a decision. The people
I work with might not be my team anymore. Didn't
seem really fair. All those things happened. So here is
part of psychological safety and usually what change happens. What
do bosses and organizations do? They like double down at
(19:07):
accountability Now we really have to hit objectives and that
actually makes it worse. Right, so where nobody knows processes,
their boss to procedures or anything else, this is the
time where you want to double and triple down on
figuring out what the new status quo is, right, what
are our processes, how are we going to work together?
How will decisions be made? How do you gain all
that clarity so that those scarf model items I've just
(19:30):
talked to you kind of get back to baseline. Then
you can change sort of your accountability practices. But if
you double down there, it's just going to make it
a lot more challenging.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, that makes sense because I when I like the
model that you talked about there, because I've been a
part of organizations where the CEO roll out and Maslow's
the hierarchy of the to them like we don't need
all that, Like we're not talking about them as like
as humanity and and their needs, right, We're talking about
(20:01):
them as employees in the organization. So let's let's focus
on what the important things are. Yeah, And and like
you said, like if I feel that I have a
safe place to bring up any concerns or any challenges.
But if I feel like the rug got pulled out
(20:22):
from undernea like you just described, I mean, and.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I get it. I get it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I've run business, I've owned my own businesses. There's certain
things that just happened because and you have to just
show up and be like hey, everybody, Yeah, this is
the new normal.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And I'm going to try to explain why as much
as possible. And I've seen it over and over again.
Where what's the famous quote right where the problem with
communication is that people think it's happened or something right
or whatever.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Look at it.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
That's actually a second place. Because I've worked with leaders
that are like I had a meeting, and I told
everybody what's happened. Why don't they understand?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, I'm dealing it.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
You show up at the meeting and you're like, hey, everybody,
we're changing this project, changing jobs, we're changing this. The
first thing people do is just go what does this
mean to me? What does this mean to me? Not
to the company, not to whatever. And you could sit
there and talk for three hours and you're not going
to break through. And so whenever we had large I
made a rule at my last companies, like whenever we
(21:25):
had these large changes that would happen is we'd have
when all staffing and then we'd scheduled one on ones
with everybody right afterwards to sit down and talk with
everybody individually about what it means for them to get
their questions out. And that changed. That made a huge
world of difference for us. What other sort of ideas
(21:46):
have you seen when you're communicating change that have been
impactful and been helpful for What advice would you give
leaders I have to walk in tomorrow and transmit a
big change, Todd, What should I be thinking about?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I would say a couple of things. You know. Part
of that we talked about the monol I presented before
in sort of safety, how do you make people say
maybe you can't and all? So, for example, when we
were going through a large restructuring, everyone knew what was happening,
and there was a large amount of uncertainy. I don't
know if I'm going to have a job or not.
You will to your point or taking you personally like, hey,
the worst case, right, everybody saying about the worst case,
(22:20):
and I can't have a job to my own, I
can be able to pay for my kids whatever. Talk.
So then you need to look at it and say
where can I lean in? Where can I give some
degree of certainty. I'll give you the example why we
were going through Kobe. You want to talk about a
really uncertain time on I'll hosts of levels. We didn't
know the outcome right of what this was going to
hold for us at work, in life or whatever. But
(22:42):
where we could bring certainty was in bringing clarity and structure. So,
for example, every week on Friday at MUNE, I would
have an open call for always step to call on
if they wanted to. We'd have our chief medical officer
talk about here's what it does that we know this
week here's what's happening, just to have people have structure. Okay,
I have some uncertain deep but this thing I do
have a certainty around. I know we're gonna have this call.
(23:03):
I know I'm going to learn exactly what's going on
and what we know, what we don't know, and what
the next steps are if there are next steps. Even
if you don't know the restructuring process, if you're going
to have a job or net, you can bring certainty
to the process. We're gonna make decisions based on these criteria.
These decisions are going to be made over the next
three months. People are going to be communicated at this date.
Right at least you can bring some degree of clarity
(23:25):
so the artist to take a look at each of
the elements of that scarf model and say, I can
I can do a lot of relatedness. We can stay
connected by having these calls and just being the team
together and so on and so forth. But I can't
give certainty because I don't know the answer. So you
can pull different levers. The things that you have more
control over are less control over. So I think that's
one that really I think that's great, isn't thing about it?
(23:48):
Isn't that one way to do this? And you're obviously
very transparent at what you were talking about. I think
the other thing to think about here is you're just
about the time leaders are communicating changes like this. They've
got a lot of time to think process, right, we
own issues about what this means for them or where
they're going to be. Yes, they've had the privilege of
doing that. Yeah, we're we're reading the same book, but
they're in chapter twenty five and everybody else has just
(24:11):
opened it up and read the prologue, and they want
to talk about all the things that have happened in
the last twenty chapters and you're like, oh.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
No, I don't even know what this book's about yet.
So I think it's a good metaphor to think about
how do I take people on that journey? So this
is the same place that I'm at, And remember that
there's facts, but then there's also sort of.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
The emotions under the facts. You yeah, hey, people are
saying words, but what's really underneath all the words? And
so that's where I think leaders need to see what
are people staying underneath the words they're rating? It's usually
fear based, it's going to be my job, and so
I think one of the most important things that leaders
can do is validate where employees are and not necessarily agree.
(24:51):
You can just about it. Hey, you know what, I
can see this is really frustrating. This has been hard
for everybody. You don't know what's going to happen next,
and that this might be very welling. Yeah, and you
know what, now people actually feel seen, feel heard. You
don't have to agree with them necessarily. We can certainly
validate the perspective that they're at. And I think a
lot of leaders avoid that because I don't want to
wallow in the pitted despair and we don't want to
(25:13):
go down this rabbit hole and woeways, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
We want to stay optimistic.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, and I'm not. You know what, Nobody hears the
optimistic part yet because they first want to be heard.
I remember when our company went from the sahly work
four days a week, if Friday was like the day
everybody had off, and then suddenly, oh nope, people are
gonna work Fridays. Well, my go this was the whole
change of the world. And people were frustrated, and there
(25:37):
were all these logical reasons why it made sense but
it had nothing to do with logic. I'd do people
felt that they had something taken away, you know, again
have to agree. Let you just say wow, I could
see where this would be really disappointing and frustrating that
now you don't have this three day weekend again. Kind
of sucks. I get it, okay, And now people that
feel all right, they get it. At least I know
(25:59):
it's not change the Matt hampypat up for the next
phase of the discussion.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah, I'd love it. One thing you talked about in
there I think really stuck out to me was letting
people know what the criteria for the decision making is not,
especially when the change is in't just a flip of
the switch sort of change. It's something where there's going
to be an evolution, a transformation or something like that.
(26:28):
And so because you can't maybe map out the exact
roadmap and the dates that things are going to happen
and who those things are going to happen to at
those points, but if you can lay out what the
you're going to be using to make your decisions, I
think is so powerful because then people know what they
should be focused on while they're in a state of uncertainty,
(26:50):
you know what I mean? Where Whereas if I went
in and I was like, hey, we're where you have
to do some layoffs, but here's what we're going to
do to recover from from that, and and then I
lay out sort of these high level things like we're
going to do more of this and less of that
and more of this. That's not going to give a
lot of people confidence. But if I can go and
(27:10):
say we're going to be judging these things by these
sets of criteria as we go along, I think that
really can set up some guardrails for people to understand
where their place is within that and what they should
be focused on because maybe they were focused on something
that sharp ye before. Maybe they were focused on something
(27:31):
that kind of leaned into that criteria but wasn't one
hundred percent there. So I think that's super powerful.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Todd, Yeah, it's the you always need the why, right,
why are we doing whatever? Change? Yeah? Copy foundational that,
but I think a lot of times companies stopped there
and now, how to your point what we talked about,
how we can get there? And you've got this phase
of uncertainty before, you've got to change it. Now, it's
that it's going to happen, but it hasn't happened. Then
whatever the change is, and then there's ilcohol it to
(27:59):
shows of the change because there's some vivor guilt. Now
you've got people like, shoot, yes I'm still here. They're
like a long line. I feel so bad for so
and and that could be me. And they got three
kids and their wipe his cancer. God knows, yes, yeah,
you know their story. Yeah, they got their team. So
you have to you have got valid deep where people are,
and then you have to get them to say, Okay,
(28:20):
this new normal we don't even know. We thought it
was going to be best, but you know, no, we
got to implement it. So we need your help in
figuring out how to do this implementation. And sort of
yeah again, I'll say, suspend some of the previous accountability
practices during time and want people to focus on getting
the change back to some kind of steady state. With
(28:41):
the exception and I've written about this in some of
my articles. There's usually a couple of pivotal programs that
are going on like these are make or bake break,
especially in a larger organization, that we have to protect.
In those cases, I usually encourage people had put it
in a bubble. They're impervious to all the change that
is currently going on. It's like when you have a
merger with a company that's about to release a product.
(29:03):
You don't have them suddenly changed. All your new processes
and all your new systems and all your right they
need to get that product out the door. Let's make
sure they're not doing anything that's unsafe or not compliant,
but otherwise follow your own processes, sell the products out
the door. We do that with mergers, but I don't
see companies do that inside their own square walls when
they go through big change. Hey, here are the three
(29:23):
programs that are untouchable. The leadership, doesn't change, the processes,
don't change da da da da Diallets get them out
the door. Change will happen around them, but create that
safety bubble all around. Those things are going to be
the things that are the lever for the organization in
the short term. So you can do a both ND.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, makes sense because I see it all the time,
where you know the metaphor you put together right the
book where the leadership is on page twenty five and
everybody else is just getting handed the book for the
first time, and the self awareness that leadership needs to
have in those instances is really important, because that's why
(29:59):
I want to talk about. This last thing I want
to ask you about is this intersection of self awareness
and accountability where there is like, I'm a leader, so
I'm holding people accountable, and there's lots of different tools
and tactics for that, but this idea of being self
aware of my own accountability to the promises that I've
(30:19):
made to these people, whether they are literal, like I
promise you this thing, or it's buried somewhere in a
contract that you signed when you got hired, or it's
this promise that I've made by sending these signals about
these things that I think are important throughout your tenure
of working here, and now I'm changing that and those
(30:44):
signals that you got are no longer accurate or relevant because,
especially when we all worked in offices, you got a
lot of your signals about what was acceptable or not
by watching other people. Looking at other people's calendars. What
time do people go to line? So I guess that's
the okay time to go to lunch. Because nobody really
comes up to you and says, Hey, it's the whistle
(31:05):
just blew time for like we used to have that
back in the day. Hey we have a whistle blow
like it's lunchtime. And now we've got government mandated fifteen
minute breaks and all these things. There's no whistles blowing.
So how do you learn all these nuances of the
culture and what's okay and what what am I being
held accountable for? There's this self awareness that I think
(31:28):
people need to have in a leadership position to understand
that this is when somebody's new to a position or
they're new in a role during a change, is that
is that they are somewhat culpable in setting this new
accountability standard now for these people, not just like they've
(31:48):
been here for fifteen years so they know what to do.
But no, you just changed everything, or you've you've changed
things enough that now you've put them on shaky ground.
And what I've found is that a lot of the
readers are just not that self aware.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great comment, and I
think it's a really challenging one because to your point,
I'm not sure the leaders know what the new norm
is after all this you think it is you put
it on a poster, or there's some things that we
think we believe, but what does that convert into you
in practice? What does that really look like? And I
think really the only way to get through this is
(32:24):
to get through it by talking about all the things
that you think are obvious but really might not be.
I'll give you a simple example. One of the leadership
teams that I enjoined was a relatively new team that
had worked together before, had quarterly business review. You spend
two days together. You go through the numbers of finances,
projects of programs, and so on and so forth. Well,
one of the practices that we ended up doing that
(32:45):
was really valuable was for that second day, for two
three four hours, we just talked about the practices themselves.
One of the examples was, Hey, what do we have
these reviews? And you asked a question of me, do
you really expect that I know the answer? Because that's
like five levels down in my ownation, And yeah, I'm
(33:05):
the leader of say, clinical research, But do you really
expect me to know the inclusion of exclusion criteria Project
X y Z. That's frankly one of our small programs.
Because if you do, I need to think differently about
how I do my job when I come into this realm,
and if you want that, why do you want that?
Or is it okay and acceptable to say Mary Jill
(33:27):
knows that answer. She's the study leader. I'm going to
have her come in and report out and whatever that
thing is. I don't know the answer, but I know
who does. Where are we what's our expectation around what
leaders should or should know? And that's what became a
really powerful discussion because the rest of us leaders with
this guy asked here like, I don't want to know
the details of every flip and thing going into my group,
(33:48):
and I don't, sir. So our general manager at the
time said, this is a good question. I know my
boss expects blah blah blah for me, So now how
And so then we had a whole discussion about how
do we get him prepared? Because I think we all
agreed we don't want to have the meeting before the
meeting for the meeting in order to prepare for the meeting,
so that we got that one time the answer might
(34:08):
be asked out of one hundred it doesn't feel very efficient,
or maybe we do. And that's a corporature let's talk
about that. And if that's the case, we have to
think differently about how we staff, how we need our
operating mechanisms, whatever else it might be. So you have
to have courage to be able to lean into that
conversation because everyone thought they knew how we were, the
(34:29):
new arms were and how we were really acting. And
we're like, you know what, I'm wasting a bunch of
time right here, At least it feels like it to me.
I had a similar conversation with my boss. It's like, hey,
you're not coming into the product review meetings anymore. These
are like day long meetings, Like you're right, He's like,
why not? It's because there are a waste of time.
No waste of time. I think they are too, So
I'm like, why are you going so now? Okay, listen,
(34:50):
how can they either be valuable for everybody there or
stop doing them? And again, it sounds easy on a
call like this, but I think you have to commit
when you're going through this change, how to have these
discussions because the way we think it's gonna be, the
way it's gonna turn out to be, you're gonna be
two different things. And that iteration chaos period in the
productivity change curve. The key is getting through that chaos
(35:11):
period as fast as possible, and the only way you're
gonna do it is by having these kinds of discussions.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, I think, and I want to hear you sing
there too, is like it's it's almost impossible to have
that accountability without intentionality. Where you've got to be. You've
got to be intentional, like I'm gonna walk in this thing.
I hope the conversation goes this way, but I'm also
prepared and clincy goes this way or that way too.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
That's such a great that's such a great point. Right.
One of the reason we don't, one of the reasons
we don't have these conversations is we may not long
get the answer. Right then you don't right then you
pretend I'm kind of probably this again, the inner story
becomes out of reality, and frankly, wealth of the leadership
have the freaking discussion, right, just why you're there, why
you're If you're not gonna have that and lean into
(35:55):
it regardless of your own personal scarf issues, and you
might leasure your job tough, right, That's why you get
paid if you're not you shouldn't be there.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, no, I've It took me a long time, but
I finally learned to take myself out of the equation.
When I was having those discussions, like I was, I
was there to be a vessel for the information and
going both ways, and that was it. Like what my
opinions and my stuff didn't matter in that moment. I
(36:26):
needed to be that sounding board for the employees and I,
but I also needed to be a mouthpiece for the
organization to say, this is what the expectations are. But
if I, if I, if I brought myself into the
conversation initially, you would end up muddying my perspective very
(36:46):
quickly around what I was getting hit with right away
when the response came back or things like that. And
and if if I, if I was to I don't know,
emotionally attached like it would just go bad. If I
didn't know what my role was versus like who I
(37:07):
am as a person, right, because again there's a big difference. Yeah,
and my role, my role is to deliver this information
and then receive information from you. Once that has occurred,
now I can engage and bring my full self in there.
But for that initial conversation like I needed to show
up as a vessel for input and output.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
That's it. Yeah, it's hard to do, and you'll do.
We to sit it up. And I have this conversation
a lot with my clients right where it feels like
it's either or either I'm part of the equation or
I'm not part of the equation. And you'd want to
be as you just say, hand and take myself out
so that we make the best decision. But it's close
to impossible, right because you are part of the equation.
So I try to get people to think a little
(37:51):
bit less one end of the spectrum of the other
and see it as a slang skit. He So I've
been thinking about this. I've probably been seventy percent of
the equation here. How do I down that doubt? Or
maybe more twenty because then you can recognize you're still
part of it. You still have feelings, emotions, concerns all that.
But I'm at least could dial it down a little
bit because you can't. You're better than I am. If
you can get to zero, I can't get to zero.
(38:13):
So it helps me to say I'm just going to
dial to me dialed down a little bit, and okay,
what do I think that looks like? In fact, right
before I retired to get back to talent pipeline discussions,
we'd have these I people like, oh, who could take
your job in the future? What are their names? Hol you?
Are they ready? And I said, you know what, if
I were to leave or get head by a bus
or whatever, I wouldn't replace me. I take this job
(38:35):
and I'd put it over here. And then this person,
I take this roll over here. And I came home
that data sit it by way. I think I just
I think I just convinced everybody that they don't need
me anymore. Yeah, it was a job that was needed
for a period of time, but yeah, sure, and now
we're at it. Yeah, change was happening, and so I'm
a different phase. I've been to my boss right in
six months, I'm I'm think it's time for men and
(38:56):
on to the end of my soul for never phase.
And that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
That's great, Todd. I could talk to you all day
and I have to have you come back on the
show because I love However, every discussion. I learned so
much from you and I really appreciate it, and I
encourage everybody to go and check out Todd on LinkedIn
because he shares some amazing content. You should really go
and follow him and make.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Sure you're watching it.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So with that being said, Todd, if I want to
get in touch it, if I want to learn more
about your coaching services, or if I want to see
more of the work that you put out there for folks,
where should I go?
Speaker 3 (39:28):
And yeah, great question. Two places one you already mentioned.
Go to LinkedIn. We've been talking a lot about some
accountability and change. I've got a couple of articles there
that actually have quite a few comments and a number
of people looked at. You want to look up the
performance on model, you can just type in performance Zone
model Todd Fonzika. The other place you got is my
website right a website now and it's Thriving nine to five.
(39:51):
That's the new Rol's nine t five, So Thriving nine
to five dot com. And yeah, you can learn more
about me and what I do and let's.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Chat all right. Awesome, Todd, thank you again for your time.
I really appreciate it and I can't wait to talk
to you again soon.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Hi, thank you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
We appreciate you taking the time to listen to this
episode of schmidt List. The stories shared by our guests
are genuinely inspiring and offer insightful knowledge. It's important to
remember that success doesn't happen overnight and requires collaboration, learning,
and perseverance. If you want to broaden your professional connections,
(40:28):
check out Kurt's book The Little Book of Networking, How
to Build your Career one Conversation at a Time on Amazon.
Please stay connected with all things schmitt List on social media,
leave a review for the podcast and join our community
of like minded entrepreneurs.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Thank you for being part of Schmidlist.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Keep innovating, collaborating, and chasing your entrepreneurial dreams.
Hey, Solopreneurs looking for a supportive community of like minded
independent business owners Join the Solo Club, an exclusive peer
advisory group designed to help you grow your business with
expert guidance and personalized strategies. You'll meet bi weekly to
share ideas, solve problems, and push each other towards success.
Visit Schmidt Consulting Dot group to learn more and apply today.
(00:23):
Don't build your business alone. We're excited to have you
join us.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to Schmidt List. Today's guest Todd Fonseca, shifted from
corporate exec to leadership coach, specializing in body language and hypnosis.
Discover his insights on transforming inner narratives into leadership success
and authentic change management.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Join us dot. How are you today, Hey, Kurt, Thanks
so much for having me. Hey reopening, by the way,
that was pretty cool. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, after two hundred and eighty episodes, you would hope
I will get good at every now everything else. To
tell me about the work you do and on who
you're working with these days?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Kurtin when I
was thinking about what I do and who I work with,
I think all comes down to, frankly, one incident that
happened in my thirty years of corporate life. If you
could believe that it would all come back to one
incident and it has to do with a.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Work Nope, is it like a spring Is Seinfeld puppy
shirt kind of story by quiet?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
But you know what it's like being a corporate America.
We would do talent pipeline reviews. Who was the next
generation that's going to be this leader in that? Yeah,
and we're working about one particular person who worked for
me and I thought he's ready for the vice president level.
He's better director for years and so on and so forth.
And when I hand this review, you can see everybody
around the table kind of give you these kind of
(01:49):
feedback and yeah, exactly, So I like you just responded
to Hi'm like, okay, so what's going on here? What's
the deal with this particular person? What are they doing?
They shouldn't be here, what do they need to do
that they're not And it was pretty quiet in the room,
and eventually one brave person sort of raises their hands says,
they wear those short sleeve planned shirts all the time.
(02:10):
I said, okay, So this really got into this discussion
of sort of how people show up right there? Confidence,
are they genuine? Whatever words you want to use that
or served out there on the zeitgeistuff, Hey, they're just
not showing up the way that I want them to.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We used to have a rule at my old agency,
no open toad shoes. Nobody wants to see your toasts,
not for any other reason. Nobody wants to see what
was it?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Oh man, that could take me off in another rabbit hole,
but I'm not going to so with that. Anteed, it
for me it was like, Okay, what's what's going on here? Right?
What's this whole thing around presence for this particular person.
So I started doing some research. I'm engineered by training,
so I wanted to look at the science and frankly,
I looked at whydy language First, Okay, what's going on?
Maybe the nonverbal communications person is sending off We know
(02:57):
it's a large majority of how we communicate. Eventually I
became a body language strainer. I got certified in this
whole space of nonverbal communication. What I founded when I
work with people with their nonverbal communication was you could
tell them what things mean and what to do. But
it became a little robotic for them. Right, So I'm like,
how do you make sure this is now actually part
(03:18):
of who you are? And so this got me thinking
about it has something to do with whatever the inner
story is you're telling yourself is also sort of the
outer story that ends up showing up. Yeah, yeah, no,
I've can help it.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
You could tell people the body language, but if their
inner story doesn't jib or be congrolled with it, it
just doesn't happen. So that actually got me into hypnosis,
what bitter way to understand sort of the secret things
within your subconscious mind. So I became a certifi and
imotist in the process as well. Can you tell I
like to go get these certifications?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
It really entered going on, there's a lot of rabbit
holes at your house, isn't there?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Or are my core wife? Anyways, we'll still really storytelling.
How do you auge people aspire them really getting into
their own mind? And so I started taking all these
things and frankly teaching them within the corporate environment, people
who work for me or whatever. It caught the eye
of our learning and development so it's within the company
and they said, hey, why don't you teach a workshop
(04:17):
for our different development leaders. Once you are at our
programs that our directors and vice presidents really get into
because we want them to be sort of the next leadership.
So I did, and this became sort of the thing
I was known for. Eventually they paid for me to
become a certified coach and I would work with vice
presidents and general managers basically helping them up. I retired
(04:38):
from the land of corporate World Liberal lover a couple
of years ago, became one of the entrepreneurs that you
talked about at the beginning of your show. Have been
doing that for a couple of years. And so who
do I work with. I work with the same types
of foks, right leaders and frankly teams. They're kind of
stagnant where they are from one reason or another. They're
not either alloping career and leveling up where the teams
(04:59):
are moving forward way that they need to be. So
work with them to help them get there. And what's
been great about it is helping them get there, not
at the way they think they should by a quip
no on whatever set of leadership skills they're supposed to learn,
or the corporate code or whatever you want to call it,
but really helping them get there with a place with
they Now, hey, you know what, this actually feels good.
This is leadership that sort of feels like me versus
(05:20):
something else somebody else is telling me to do. So
there you go a little bit of a story. But
that's that's you. When I do when where I work
with no I love it. That's that helps.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's super helpful, and I know the audience appreciates it
because especially my generation, I'm jen X and this idea
of coaching wasn't a thing. I mean even therapy was
not really a thing. And my leadership journey, I was
kind of thrust into a management position because I was
put in charge of hiring and growing the team. And
(05:50):
so they were like, you're hiring the people, so you
got to be in charge of them, and so I
immediately my first thought was, Okay, how do you manage
these people? I know, I'll make all of them my
best friend and then they all want to work for
me and they all be super happy. And what a
disaster that was. And then when I went to my
next role, the pendulum, I swung the pendulum really hard
(06:12):
the other way where I was like, Okay, I'm going
to be the Jack Welsh of this software development. I'm
gonna iron fist, big thumb, and everybody's going to be
under it. And that did not obviously did not work
out well. And then I started really having a hard
time finding the balance of how do I be friends
(06:35):
with these people but also have respect and authority with
them as well. And that took me years to get
good at and I believe I did get good at it.
Still I still have a lot of people ten years later,
fifteen years later saying oh, I always loved to have
it and was a boss. It was great, blah blah blah.
(06:55):
So I mean, I'm very I'm very lucky. But I
was also not a shame to show up vulnerable and
show that I didn't know everything and I needed their
help to get good at what I was doing. But
I realized a lot of the peers around me really
struggled with that, and I ended up kind of being
a pseudo coach in certain cases. And I can imagine
(07:18):
your journey was kind of similar where it came that
empathy and that vulnerability came a little bit more natural
for you, but it doesn't for everybody.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, it's hard, it's hard to listen to your story
without replaying help. Yep, went through that phase. Yep went
went through the face. Well, we're sort of stumbling upon
it on your own in many ways, even though there
were maybe some leadership development courses here and there that
the company might pay for. But you know what I
really appreciated what what you said is sort of the
situational leadership. Hey, when do you need to lean in here?
(07:47):
When you need to pull off? Pull back there? And
there's a great tool actually that it came across our
little models, right, being an engineer, Hey, how do you
put things into a model? It's called the TAPS model
till ask problem solution And it's exactly what fucking right?
Which quadrant are you operating in? Are you always telling people?
Are you always focusing on a problem? And the key
is no one of these CoA drones is the right one.
(08:09):
It's situational. You change when you need to coach, when
you need to mentor when you need to be a
consultant and so on. It's about being intentional and then
also see what people need. And that's a lot of
what what But yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I mean my father told me how a long time ago,
my father, who was a minister, taught me a lot
about working with with people, and he was always like,
don't listen, listen with half an ear, but understand what
their motivation is, why they're in front of you, what
are they trying to accomplish, don't don't necessarily hang on
the words as much. And to your point about body language,
(08:43):
I think that's fascinating because because people are they're like ogres.
They have layers, right people, and if you're just focused
on that outer layer when they show up, and you're
going to get frustrated very very easily, because if you
old try to understand what's coming from behind that and
what's motivating them to have these discussions. So I used
(09:06):
to have this employee all the time that was very
chicken little. Everything was like, oh my gosh, I'm showing
up at your office because this thing, these people are
doing this thing and it's going to destroy the company.
And then they'd show up and they'd be like, and
this person is doing this thing and it's going to
destroy the company. And initially I'd jump up from my
chair and run like, okay, let's go to war battle,
(09:28):
let's go. And then I'd find out like it was
there's nothing. But I realized over time with this person
that was their kind of way of getting attention, that
the saying saying I'm I'm important, look at look at
how important I am, and realize how important I am.
And not in a bad way, not in a nefarious way.
They're doing this because their motivation was that they want
(09:51):
you recognized, and that was the way that they understood
recognition happened to them. So I had to work, but
it took a while. I had to work with this
person find other avenues for them to show that they
were appreciated and that they were valuable and that they
had they had value in the organization without having to
always show up and have a problem to run. So
(10:12):
the reason why I tell that story, Todd, is because
I'm sure you've run into this these sorts of situations
before where you've got that one person that you're like,
should we just let them go because it's weird, or
should I double down and put effort into them? And
what's what's your advice when a leader is facing that
(10:34):
that kind of tipping point?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, I think I always aired probably too hard on
the stick with a person too lock frankly any thinking
most people do, how can I make this work right?
How can I find that spark or whatever else? And
it's hard to know, right, And I think what I
learned is a lot of what you just articulate, And
that's what's that next layer down. What's really going on here?
(10:58):
What are they afraid of? Inspired by, motivated by, or
whatever else? What's coming out instead of listening to the words,
listening to you, or trying to feel whatever the emotion
is behind all of that? And so now does this
come down to a capability question? And they're working for
a place of fear that's why they're not leading in
or you just can't know. And I've seen both, right,
I Mean there's some people are like, hey, they've been
(11:18):
promoted to a level of living competence. I'm sure you've
heard that before, and now they're much a protective mode.
I've had leaders who led organizations that should have never
been leaders, that they didn't like leading, they didn't like people,
and they would admit that, Oh yeah, then the great
thing to do there is put them at a role
if you can that they can succeed in. I have
one individual she did a director for years and then
(11:40):
after the first couple of months, I said, look, I'm
not going to have you lead people anymore. I'm going
to have you do this strategic work with our global partners.
It's where you're good, it's where you're smart. At first
she said I can't do this, I'm going to leave.
I'm like, I'm still going to make this change. Six
months later she said, I've never been happy. Yeah, of
course right now. Some of it's a trust your and
(12:00):
I would say I've always aired personally again, I'm waiting
too long take action shooter rather thanely.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, I've been that person where I'm like, I will
drag you kicking and screaming to success in the past.
And it's hard because and I want to talk about
accountability here, because you got in some ways hold yourself accountable,
which is I think one of the hardest things to
do as a as a leader in an organization, because
it's really hard to go to your boss and say, like,
(12:28):
I don't have control of my team.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
You can't do that.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
And it's much like why I've seen these bad leaders
years after you, because the way organizations are set up
is that if you want to make more money and
if you have more influence, then you've.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Got to manage people.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And the boss comes to you and says, Todd, I
think you're great. I want you to run the team,
and you're like, I have no interest in doing that,
but I'm never going to say no to more money
and more influence in the organization. I begrudgingly take the promotion,
and then I spend the next year is making people's
lives hell because it's the only way the company has
(13:04):
shown me I have value. So to your point, if
you can't, as a good leader, come up with those
avenues where individual contributors can have the same amount of impact, power,
whatever you want to call it, influence, value, and money.
As the people who are running teams, you're going to
constantly be creating this problem over and over again.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah. Yeah, so it's very true. You're exactly right. And Manyth,
that comes down to what you were saying earlier, is
it turns out that we're not all the same go
figure and go figure in the world doesn't apply it management,
he says, say, Oh, treat everybody like you want to
be treated, lead everybody like you'd like to be led,
or manage people the way you want to be managed,
and it doesn't work. It turns out that everybody wants
(13:47):
to be managed the same way I want to be managed.
Some people, to your point, would want to come in
every day and sort of check in for whatever reason.
You're going to get more a pummet. I'm like, that
is not me. And frankly, at first I'm thinking, why
you need this? I throwing some vibe off where that's
when I go back right.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Now, Yeah, if I tell it, am, I'm letting you
think that I don't trust Wow.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
And so it's the opposite. So you really have to decide, Okay,
how much am I willing to really spend the time
to understand the person behind the person and what they
need and then be situational how you mean, not just them,
let the situations that come up. And it's it's a
different set of skills that you really need to understand,
lean into and want to do. If you don't, that's cool, right,
find something else. But you just can't read people the
(14:29):
way you want to be let it's just as a work.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
When it comes to the idea of change in an organization,
it scares a lot of people, especially these days, because
you have these layoffs that have been happening like crazy
for the last eighteen months, and a lot of people
are scared. A couple of years ago, during the pandemic,
people were like, I'm working from home and they're like, no,
you can then fire me and they're like no, we'll
pay you more money. But now the pendulum's kind of
(14:53):
swung back and the employers are a bit more powerful
than they were, and so that's made people a lot
more afraid AID in general. And but people are doing
change because we've got things like AI showing up. There's
there's some predictions that like it's going to replace half
of the workforce, and then a lot of other people
are like maybe five percent of the workforce they'll get
(15:15):
replaced by AI. These these people are folks are worried
about change. How do you approach change management in the
in the work that you do? What what sort of
philosophy do you take when when you're coming in to
help implement change.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah, it's a great question. And really I start from
a foundational model and then show how it applies throughout
the change curse. So I'll tell you a little bit
about both. So for me and you just touched on
one of the three pillars that I really think are
critical for success in any company, and that is that
your employice have three things right. That they've got psychological safety,
which gets to your fear question, and we could talk
a little bit about what change happens, what really happens
(15:54):
to psychological safety. It's a concept that Amy emins and
in broadworth. The next capability, right, do I the skills,
the training, the support, the research, the dollars, the whatever
it might be, right, do I have the capability now
to do my job? And the third one is accountability
all right, to get all the people accountable to get
the work done of the way they need to get
it done. And so you really need all three of these,
(16:15):
and you can imagine each one of these are pillars.
If you have one, don't have the other two, or
you have two, or you don't have one, you're not
quite hitting on all thrusters we need. Are all three
right capable? We've got the resources we need to get
the job done. I'm being held accountable because I know
exactly what it is you expect of me, and when
it needs to get done, and it feels safe here
(16:35):
right then I don't feel like I'm going to lose
my job tomorrow, or there's cons of restructuring. AI is
going to take over my work. So there's got to
be this nice sweet spot of all three. Now we
need to talk about change. Change does reps almost all
of these, Right, You've got kind of your stems. People
are moving along do other thing. And there's something about
the sadder change model. Right, So some change kind of happens.
There's a merger, AI takes over some work, you have
(16:59):
a large reduction force, you restructure your staff, there's new processes,
whatever it might be, and there's sort of this period
of chaos, right because we don't know who the boss
is now maybe we're operating in a slightly different way
than we have before. And now what happens. Let's take
a look at psychological safety first, it goes down pretty fast.
Maybe half of the people used to work with now
(17:19):
just got laid off and you're thinking, am I going
to be the next person? And the way to think
about it, I mean there's this nice model called scarf
scarf right, So how important and these are the sort
of underpinnings of psychological safety. How much is status? That's
the first one is important? To an organization like if
(17:41):
it's always hierarchical in nature and status is always really important,
and you're not sure where you fit in that current hierarchy,
that creates a lot of uncertainty. Which is the next one,
see certainty. How much certainty you have about your job,
your boss, how you're going to perform. Will you have
a job in the next month? Are the basu projects
still around? The next one autonomy Are you clear that
(18:03):
you can make your old decisions? You can make your
own way in the organization. The R is relating this, Hey,
do I feel like I'm conducted to these folks? I mean,
I've been in organizations where suddenly your boss and all
the people you work with for ten years are gone. Now,
who are you a part of anymore? This is my
tribe anymore? If you will, it's all of these people.
They get to reclaim sort of what it is that
(18:24):
your expertise is and prove yourself all over again. And
then the last thing f is fairness. How fair does
this decision seem to be made? Is it based on
objective criterias? It feel sort of like, hey, it's this
person friend or this whole group over here, got let
go because they irritated the CEO or whatever else it
might be. So you really need to look at all
(18:46):
these to see and think about when change happens. Right,
Oh my gosh, I don't have autonom anymore because I
didn't have anything to do. It's a decision. The people
I work with might not be my team anymore. Didn't
seem really fair. All those things happened. So here is
part of psychological safety and usually what change happens. What
do bosses and organizations do? They like double down at
(19:07):
accountability Now we really have to hit objectives and that
actually makes it worse. Right, so where nobody knows processes,
their boss to procedures or anything else, this is the
time where you want to double and triple down on
figuring out what the new status quo is, right, what
are our processes, how are we going to work together?
How will decisions be made? How do you gain all
that clarity so that those scarf model items I've just
(19:30):
talked to you kind of get back to baseline. Then
you can change sort of your accountability practices. But if
you double down there, it's just going to make it
a lot more challenging.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, that makes sense because I when I like the
model that you talked about there, because I've been a
part of organizations where the CEO roll out and Maslow's
the hierarchy of the to them like we don't need
all that, Like we're not talking about them as like
as humanity and and their needs, right, We're talking about
(20:01):
them as employees in the organization. So let's let's focus
on what the important things are. Yeah, And and like
you said, like if I feel that I have a
safe place to bring up any concerns or any challenges.
But if I feel like the rug got pulled out
(20:22):
from undernea like you just described, I mean, and.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I get it. I get it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I've run business, I've owned my own businesses. There's certain
things that just happened because and you have to just
show up and be like hey, everybody, Yeah, this is
the new normal.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And I'm going to try to explain why as much
as possible. And I've seen it over and over again.
Where what's the famous quote right where the problem with
communication is that people think it's happened or something right
or whatever.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Look at it.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
That's actually a second place. Because I've worked with leaders
that are like I had a meeting, and I told
everybody what's happened. Why don't they understand?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, I'm dealing it.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
You show up at the meeting and you're like, hey, everybody,
we're changing this project, changing jobs, we're changing this. The
first thing people do is just go what does this
mean to me? What does this mean to me? Not
to the company, not to whatever. And you could sit
there and talk for three hours and you're not going
to break through. And so whenever we had large I
made a rule at my last companies, like whenever we
(21:25):
had these large changes that would happen is we'd have
when all staffing and then we'd scheduled one on ones
with everybody right afterwards to sit down and talk with
everybody individually about what it means for them to get
their questions out. And that changed. That made a huge
world of difference for us. What other sort of ideas
(21:46):
have you seen when you're communicating change that have been
impactful and been helpful for What advice would you give
leaders I have to walk in tomorrow and transmit a
big change, Todd, What should I be thinking about?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I would say a couple of things. You know. Part
of that we talked about the monol I presented before
in sort of safety, how do you make people say
maybe you can't and all? So, for example, when we
were going through a large restructuring, everyone knew what was happening,
and there was a large amount of uncertainy. I don't
know if I'm going to have a job or not.
You will to your point or taking you personally like, hey,
the worst case, right, everybody saying about the worst case,
(22:20):
and I can't have a job to my own, I
can be able to pay for my kids whatever. Talk.
So then you need to look at it and say
where can I lean in? Where can I give some
degree of certainty. I'll give you the example why we
were going through Kobe. You want to talk about a
really uncertain time on I'll hosts of levels. We didn't
know the outcome right of what this was going to
hold for us at work, in life or whatever. But
(22:42):
where we could bring certainty was in bringing clarity and structure. So,
for example, every week on Friday at MUNE, I would
have an open call for always step to call on
if they wanted to. We'd have our chief medical officer
talk about here's what it does that we know this
week here's what's happening, just to have people have structure. Okay,
I have some uncertain deep but this thing I do
have a certainty around. I know we're gonna have this call.
(23:03):
I know I'm going to learn exactly what's going on
and what we know, what we don't know, and what
the next steps are if there are next steps. Even
if you don't know the restructuring process, if you're going
to have a job or net, you can bring certainty
to the process. We're gonna make decisions based on these criteria.
These decisions are going to be made over the next
three months. People are going to be communicated at this date.
Right at least you can bring some degree of clarity
(23:25):
so the artist to take a look at each of
the elements of that scarf model and say, I can
I can do a lot of relatedness. We can stay
connected by having these calls and just being the team
together and so on and so forth. But I can't
give certainty because I don't know the answer. So you
can pull different levers. The things that you have more
control over are less control over. So I think that's
one that really I think that's great, isn't thing about it?
(23:48):
Isn't that one way to do this? And you're obviously
very transparent at what you were talking about. I think
the other thing to think about here is you're just
about the time leaders are communicating changes like this. They've
got a lot of time to think process, right, we
own issues about what this means for them or where
they're going to be. Yes, they've had the privilege of
doing that. Yeah, we're we're reading the same book, but
they're in chapter twenty five and everybody else has just
(24:11):
opened it up and read the prologue, and they want
to talk about all the things that have happened in
the last twenty chapters and you're like, oh.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
No, I don't even know what this book's about yet.
So I think it's a good metaphor to think about
how do I take people on that journey? So this
is the same place that I'm at, And remember that
there's facts, but then there's also sort of.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
The emotions under the facts. You yeah, hey, people are
saying words, but what's really underneath all the words? And
so that's where I think leaders need to see what
are people staying underneath the words they're rating? It's usually
fear based, it's going to be my job, and so
I think one of the most important things that leaders
can do is validate where employees are and not necessarily agree.
(24:51):
You can just about it. Hey, you know what, I
can see this is really frustrating. This has been hard
for everybody. You don't know what's going to happen next,
and that this might be very welling. Yeah, and you
know what, now people actually feel seen, feel heard. You
don't have to agree with them necessarily. We can certainly
validate the perspective that they're at. And I think a
lot of leaders avoid that because I don't want to
wallow in the pitted despair and we don't want to
(25:13):
go down this rabbit hole and woeways, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
We want to stay optimistic.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, and I'm not. You know what, Nobody hears the
optimistic part yet because they first want to be heard.
I remember when our company went from the sahly work
four days a week, if Friday was like the day
everybody had off, and then suddenly, oh nope, people are
gonna work Fridays. Well, my go this was the whole
change of the world. And people were frustrated, and there
(25:37):
were all these logical reasons why it made sense but
it had nothing to do with logic. I'd do people
felt that they had something taken away, you know, again
have to agree. Let you just say wow, I could
see where this would be really disappointing and frustrating that
now you don't have this three day weekend again. Kind
of sucks. I get it, okay, And now people that
feel all right, they get it. At least I know
(25:59):
it's not change the Matt hampypat up for the next
phase of the discussion.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah, I'd love it. One thing you talked about in
there I think really stuck out to me was letting
people know what the criteria for the decision making is not,
especially when the change is in't just a flip of
the switch sort of change. It's something where there's going
to be an evolution, a transformation or something like that.
(26:28):
And so because you can't maybe map out the exact
roadmap and the dates that things are going to happen
and who those things are going to happen to at
those points, but if you can lay out what the
you're going to be using to make your decisions, I
think is so powerful because then people know what they
should be focused on while they're in a state of uncertainty,
(26:50):
you know what I mean? Where Whereas if I went
in and I was like, hey, we're where you have
to do some layoffs, but here's what we're going to
do to recover from from that, and and then I
lay out sort of these high level things like we're
going to do more of this and less of that
and more of this. That's not going to give a
lot of people confidence. But if I can go and
(27:10):
say we're going to be judging these things by these
sets of criteria as we go along, I think that
really can set up some guardrails for people to understand
where their place is within that and what they should
be focused on because maybe they were focused on something
that sharp ye before. Maybe they were focused on something
(27:31):
that kind of leaned into that criteria but wasn't one
hundred percent there. So I think that's super powerful.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Todd, Yeah, it's the you always need the why, right,
why are we doing whatever? Change? Yeah? Copy foundational that,
but I think a lot of times companies stopped there
and now, how to your point what we talked about,
how we can get there? And you've got this phase
of uncertainty before, you've got to change it. Now, it's
that it's going to happen, but it hasn't happened. Then
whatever the change is, and then there's ilcohol it to
(27:59):
shows of the change because there's some vivor guilt. Now
you've got people like, shoot, yes I'm still here. They're
like a long line. I feel so bad for so
and and that could be me. And they got three
kids and their wipe his cancer. God knows, yes, yeah,
you know their story. Yeah, they got their team. So
you have to you have got valid deep where people are,
and then you have to get them to say, Okay,
(28:20):
this new normal we don't even know. We thought it
was going to be best, but you know, no, we
got to implement it. So we need your help in
figuring out how to do this implementation. And sort of
yeah again, I'll say, suspend some of the previous accountability
practices during time and want people to focus on getting
the change back to some kind of steady state. With
(28:41):
the exception and I've written about this in some of
my articles. There's usually a couple of pivotal programs that
are going on like these are make or bake break,
especially in a larger organization, that we have to protect.
In those cases, I usually encourage people had put it
in a bubble. They're impervious to all the change that
is currently going on. It's like when you have a
merger with a company that's about to release a product.
(29:03):
You don't have them suddenly changed. All your new processes
and all your new systems and all your right they
need to get that product out the door. Let's make
sure they're not doing anything that's unsafe or not compliant,
but otherwise follow your own processes, sell the products out
the door. We do that with mergers, but I don't
see companies do that inside their own square walls when
they go through big change. Hey, here are the three
(29:23):
programs that are untouchable. The leadership, doesn't change, the processes,
don't change da da da da Diallets get them out
the door. Change will happen around them, but create that
safety bubble all around. Those things are going to be
the things that are the lever for the organization in
the short term. So you can do a both ND.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, makes sense because I see it all the time,
where you know the metaphor you put together right the
book where the leadership is on page twenty five and
everybody else is just getting handed the book for the
first time, and the self awareness that leadership needs to
have in those instances is really important, because that's why
(29:59):
I want to talk about. This last thing I want
to ask you about is this intersection of self awareness
and accountability where there is like, I'm a leader, so
I'm holding people accountable, and there's lots of different tools
and tactics for that, but this idea of being self
aware of my own accountability to the promises that I've
(30:19):
made to these people, whether they are literal, like I
promise you this thing, or it's buried somewhere in a
contract that you signed when you got hired, or it's
this promise that I've made by sending these signals about
these things that I think are important throughout your tenure
of working here, and now I'm changing that and those
(30:44):
signals that you got are no longer accurate or relevant because,
especially when we all worked in offices, you got a
lot of your signals about what was acceptable or not
by watching other people. Looking at other people's calendars. What
time do people go to line? So I guess that's
the okay time to go to lunch. Because nobody really
comes up to you and says, Hey, it's the whistle
(31:05):
just blew time for like we used to have that
back in the day. Hey we have a whistle blow
like it's lunchtime. And now we've got government mandated fifteen
minute breaks and all these things. There's no whistles blowing.
So how do you learn all these nuances of the
culture and what's okay and what what am I being
held accountable for? There's this self awareness that I think
(31:28):
people need to have in a leadership position to understand
that this is when somebody's new to a position or
they're new in a role during a change, is that
is that they are somewhat culpable in setting this new
accountability standard now for these people, not just like they've
(31:48):
been here for fifteen years so they know what to do.
But no, you just changed everything, or you've you've changed
things enough that now you've put them on shaky ground.
And what I've found is that a lot of the
readers are just not that self aware.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great comment, and I
think it's a really challenging one because to your point,
I'm not sure the leaders know what the new norm
is after all this you think it is you put
it on a poster, or there's some things that we
think we believe, but what does that convert into you
in practice? What does that really look like? And I
think really the only way to get through this is
(32:24):
to get through it by talking about all the things
that you think are obvious but really might not be.
I'll give you a simple example. One of the leadership
teams that I enjoined was a relatively new team that
had worked together before, had quarterly business review. You spend
two days together. You go through the numbers of finances,
projects of programs, and so on and so forth. Well,
one of the practices that we ended up doing that
(32:45):
was really valuable was for that second day, for two
three four hours, we just talked about the practices themselves.
One of the examples was, Hey, what do we have
these reviews? And you asked a question of me, do
you really expect that I know the answer? Because that's
like five levels down in my ownation, And yeah, I'm
(33:05):
the leader of say, clinical research, But do you really
expect me to know the inclusion of exclusion criteria Project
X y Z. That's frankly one of our small programs.
Because if you do, I need to think differently about
how I do my job when I come into this realm,
and if you want that, why do you want that?
Or is it okay and acceptable to say Mary Jill
(33:27):
knows that answer. She's the study leader. I'm going to
have her come in and report out and whatever that
thing is. I don't know the answer, but I know
who does. Where are we what's our expectation around what
leaders should or should know? And that's what became a
really powerful discussion because the rest of us leaders with
this guy asked here like, I don't want to know
the details of every flip and thing going into my group,
(33:48):
and I don't, sir. So our general manager at the
time said, this is a good question. I know my
boss expects blah blah blah for me, So now how
And so then we had a whole discussion about how
do we get him prepared? Because I think we all
agreed we don't want to have the meeting before the
meeting for the meeting in order to prepare for the meeting,
so that we got that one time the answer might
(34:08):
be asked out of one hundred it doesn't feel very efficient,
or maybe we do. And that's a corporature let's talk
about that. And if that's the case, we have to
think differently about how we staff, how we need our
operating mechanisms, whatever else it might be. So you have
to have courage to be able to lean into that
conversation because everyone thought they knew how we were, the
(34:29):
new arms were and how we were really acting. And
we're like, you know what, I'm wasting a bunch of
time right here, At least it feels like it to me.
I had a similar conversation with my boss. It's like, hey,
you're not coming into the product review meetings anymore. These
are like day long meetings, Like you're right, He's like,
why not? It's because there are a waste of time.
No waste of time. I think they are too, So
I'm like, why are you going so now? Okay, listen,
(34:50):
how can they either be valuable for everybody there or
stop doing them? And again, it sounds easy on a
call like this, but I think you have to commit
when you're going through this change, how to have these
discussions because the way we think it's gonna be, the
way it's gonna turn out to be, you're gonna be
two different things. And that iteration chaos period in the
productivity change curve. The key is getting through that chaos
(35:11):
period as fast as possible, and the only way you're
gonna do it is by having these kinds of discussions.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, I think, and I want to hear you sing
there too, is like it's it's almost impossible to have
that accountability without intentionality. Where you've got to be. You've
got to be intentional, like I'm gonna walk in this thing.
I hope the conversation goes this way, but I'm also
prepared and clincy goes this way or that way too.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
That's such a great that's such a great point. Right.
One of the reason we don't, one of the reasons
we don't have these conversations is we may not long
get the answer. Right then you don't right then you
pretend I'm kind of probably this again, the inner story
becomes out of reality, and frankly, wealth of the leadership
have the freaking discussion, right, just why you're there, why
you're If you're not gonna have that and lean into
(35:55):
it regardless of your own personal scarf issues, and you
might leasure your job tough, right, That's why you get
paid if you're not you shouldn't be there.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, no, I've It took me a long time, but
I finally learned to take myself out of the equation.
When I was having those discussions, like I was, I
was there to be a vessel for the information and
going both ways, and that was it. Like what my
opinions and my stuff didn't matter in that moment. I
(36:26):
needed to be that sounding board for the employees and I,
but I also needed to be a mouthpiece for the
organization to say, this is what the expectations are. But
if I, if I, if I brought myself into the
conversation initially, you would end up muddying my perspective very
(36:46):
quickly around what I was getting hit with right away
when the response came back or things like that. And
and if if I, if I was to I don't know,
emotionally attached like it would just go bad. If I
didn't know what my role was versus like who I
(37:07):
am as a person, right, because again there's a big difference. Yeah,
and my role, my role is to deliver this information
and then receive information from you. Once that has occurred,
now I can engage and bring my full self in there.
But for that initial conversation like I needed to show
up as a vessel for input and output.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
That's it. Yeah, it's hard to do, and you'll do.
We to sit it up. And I have this conversation
a lot with my clients right where it feels like
it's either or either I'm part of the equation or
I'm not part of the equation. And you'd want to
be as you just say, hand and take myself out
so that we make the best decision. But it's close
to impossible, right because you are part of the equation.
So I try to get people to think a little
(37:51):
bit less one end of the spectrum of the other
and see it as a slang skit. He So I've
been thinking about this. I've probably been seventy percent of
the equation here. How do I down that doubt? Or
maybe more twenty because then you can recognize you're still
part of it. You still have feelings, emotions, concerns all that.
But I'm at least could dial it down a little
bit because you can't. You're better than I am. If
you can get to zero, I can't get to zero.
(38:13):
So it helps me to say I'm just going to
dial to me dialed down a little bit, and okay,
what do I think that looks like? In fact, right
before I retired to get back to talent pipeline discussions,
we'd have these I people like, oh, who could take
your job in the future? What are their names? Hol you?
Are they ready? And I said, you know what, if
I were to leave or get head by a bus
or whatever, I wouldn't replace me. I take this job
(38:35):
and I'd put it over here. And then this person,
I take this roll over here. And I came home
that data sit it by way. I think I just
I think I just convinced everybody that they don't need
me anymore. Yeah, it was a job that was needed
for a period of time, but yeah, sure, and now
we're at it. Yeah, change was happening, and so I'm
a different phase. I've been to my boss right in
six months, I'm I'm think it's time for men and
(38:56):
on to the end of my soul for never phase.
And that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
That's great, Todd. I could talk to you all day
and I have to have you come back on the
show because I love However, every discussion. I learned so
much from you and I really appreciate it, and I
encourage everybody to go and check out Todd on LinkedIn
because he shares some amazing content. You should really go
and follow him and make.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Sure you're watching it.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
So with that being said, Todd, if I want to
get in touch it, if I want to learn more
about your coaching services, or if I want to see
more of the work that you put out there for folks,
where should I go?
Speaker 3 (39:28):
And yeah, great question. Two places one you already mentioned.
Go to LinkedIn. We've been talking a lot about some
accountability and change. I've got a couple of articles there
that actually have quite a few comments and a number
of people looked at. You want to look up the
performance on model, you can just type in performance Zone
model Todd Fonzika. The other place you got is my
website right a website now and it's Thriving nine to five.
(39:51):
That's the new Rol's nine t five, So Thriving nine
to five dot com. And yeah, you can learn more
about me and what I do and let's.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Chat all right. Awesome, Todd, thank you again for your time.
I really appreciate it and I can't wait to talk
to you again soon.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Hi, thank you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
We appreciate you taking the time to listen to this
episode of schmidt List. The stories shared by our guests
are genuinely inspiring and offer insightful knowledge. It's important to
remember that success doesn't happen overnight and requires collaboration, learning,
and perseverance. If you want to broaden your professional connections,
(40:28):
check out Kurt's book The Little Book of Networking, How
to Build your Career one Conversation at a Time on Amazon.
Please stay connected with all things schmitt List on social media,
leave a review for the podcast and join our community
of like minded entrepreneurs.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Thank you for being part of Schmidlist.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Keep innovating, collaborating, and chasing your entrepreneurial dreams.
Popular Podcasts
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!