Ep. 83 - Seaforestation and Ocean Conservation with Scott Bohachyk

Scott is committed to advancing nature-based solutions that benefit people and the planet.

His current work and experience has resulted in an inspiring and dynamic network that seeks solutions to the complex environmental challenges of our times. He work closely with various levels of government, industry, universities and non-profits to coordinate and amplify these efforts. In concert with a talented team at Ocean Wise, he designs, scales and optimizes solutions that have concrete benefits to people and the planet.

Scott was selected as the North American civil society representative for the third and fourth United Nations Environment Assembly (UNEA), in Nairobi, Kenya. He also recently completed his Executive MBA at the Smith School of Business at Queen's University in early 2020.

Scott is fortunate to have worked and lived across Canada and internationally over the last decade. This has provided Scott with the unique opportunity to contribute to and lead an incredible variety of teams with different values, worldviews, and skill sets.

Connect with Scott via email: [e-mail]

Oceanwise: https://ocean.org

Scott’s department at Oceanwise: https://ocean.org/climate-change/seaforestation/

Education resources including the SeaDome: https://ocean.org/learn-explore/education/

Oceanwise for teens: https://ocean.org/learn-explore/youth-programs/youthtosea/

Oceanwise for young adults: https://ocean.org/learn-explore/youth-programs/ocean-bridge/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The gamuta fights are kind of hardiestaround day eighteen or day nineteen. I
suppose you can actually blend them upand create millions more gammuto fights that that
will then kind of increase the productionand the number of spore fights that you
have. But then the spore fightsare added to green gravel. So imagine
we have this basic kind of avery simple three foot by three foot not

(00:23):
very deep, maybe a foot deep, white tup. There's a couple of
thousand pieces of gravel in that tub, and you and you inoculate the gravel
with the spoa fights of the kelp, and so the baby kelp attached themselves
to the green gravel. And thenyou can take that green gravel and on
the test site, you know,basically kind of spread it overboard. The

(00:45):
green gravel provides the initial substrate forthe kelp hold fast to start from.
And you lay those thousands of piecesof gravel in the restoration site and kelp
will grow from that. Welcome backto another episode of Science three sixty.

(01:07):
This is Tim Stevenson, your host, and on this episode I have Scott
Blatcheck of Oceanwise. Oceanwise is anorganization focused on educating everybody about the health
and state of the oceans, somepractical ways you can get involved in ocean
conservation. But I also think thisepisode has an undercurrent that could rock the

(01:29):
boats of how we teach science.This podcast is a proud member of the
Teach Better Podcast Network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to
get you there. Explore more podcastat www dot Teach Better podcast Network dot
com. Now let's get onto theepisode. Okay, let's hit the reset

(02:01):
button on this podcast just for amoment. Let's talk about why I bring
the type of episodes that I bring. Why a discussion about seaweed like this
one? What value do I seein this sort of thing for teachers?
Okay, let me explain. Fordecades we've been using a science curriculum that
has gone largely unchanged. We teachthe periodic table and the trends among the

(02:23):
elements. We teach mitosis and myosis, the cell and its organelles. We
teach forces and calculate situations under theheading of kinematics. We teach classes of
chemical reactions and how mRNA is usedin producing proteins. And the list could
go on. But to me,these questions of when are we ever going

(02:44):
to use this? Or why doesthis matter have grown to mean a great
deal. I've put myself more andmore into the shoes of today's students and
have attempted to think like they do, and I've come to the conclusion that
if I were one of them,I'd likely ask the same questions, and
I'd want answers. So what istoday's student? I believe that the people

(03:07):
we teach here midway through the thirddecade of the twenty first century, have
become a much more discerning audience.They're far better at recognizing value and knowing
what they will allow to compete fortheir time. They know how to evaluate
content what deserves a like or arepost. And I believe that what we've

(03:29):
traditionally called education, the content andtopics that I've seen taught for thirty years,
which by the way, is thesame content and topics that I was
taught in the eighties, is notin and of itself worthy of a like.
Today's student needs to see it incontext, a reason for being,
a purpose that deserves their divided attention, a portion of their mental distraction.

(03:55):
This is why my discussion in episodeeighty two with doctor Tim Daisy meant so
much to me. Students today needwisdom more so than they need facts.
Facts are easy to come by,facts are searchable, but knowing what facts
to search for and how to searchfor them and where they can apply those

(04:15):
facts is far more important. Andso this lens is what I teach through,
and this lens is why I bringthese episodes, because it's through this
lens that we ultimately will reach today'sstudents with value, purpose and meaning that
they're looking for in life. It'sfar past time that we deliver facts about

(04:36):
the life cycle of selves or theplacement of electrons and orbitals. We're living
and teaching in a time of meaningand relevance, some of which will require
some facts, for sure, butfacts with a purpose for knowing, not
just facts to be known for theunit test. That sort of education just

(04:56):
will not fly in this era.That kind of education, in my opinion,
is malpractice. That kind of educationis forgettable. And I want my
lessons to be memorable. And justas every aspect of society is evolving,
so must education evolve to meet theneeds of today's student. And this is
why I bring the episodes that Ibring with this in mind. Listen to

(05:21):
Skopel Hatchik explain the scientific method ina practical setting, saving the kelp forests
that have been ravaged by the seaurchin, which lost its only predator.
How he's experimenting with replanting sporial fightsbased on knowledge of fragmentation while taking into
consideration genetic diversity. A student mightask, oh, mister Stevenson, what's

(05:45):
the scientific method, What's a sporialfight? What's fragmentation? What's genetics?
Rather than these facts being the lesson, they become the byproduct of understanding of
the application and the wisdom of workwithin an interdependent ecosystem. Rather than teaching
the scientific method in a series oflessons, listen to Scott show it in

(06:08):
action in a meaningful and relevant way, from hypothesis to design, to execution
to data and repeat, asking questionsall along the way. And when it's
done, don't end with a testand call it a day. Offer the
students actual ways that they can getinvolved in saving these culturally and ecologically sensitive

(06:30):
areas of the ocean by enrolling insome of Oceanwise's programs for teens. You
see this episode, and indeed allof my episodes are there to encourage you,
the teacher, to take what youdo and draw your students into wanting
to learn instead of learning to meetthe requirements of the test, want to
not have to. The difference isenormous, and the result is students who

(06:55):
thrive, who ask if they canlook into something more deeply. I've seen
to happen in my own classroom.And the other result is you, the
teacher, are excited to bring morecontent like this because you begin to pick
up on the excitement of learning thatyou're witnessed too among your students. This
is why Science three sixty exists.This is why I'm still excited to teach

(07:16):
going into my thirty first year.This is why I want you to experiment
with this type of teaching. Youdeserve it just as much as your students
deserve it. So now let's getonto the episode. So this is the

(07:39):
second time I've had you on theepisode, or sorry, not on.
This is the second time I've hadyou on the podcast. And the change
since then was that you took onthe role of director of the Sea four
Station branch of Oceanwise, and I'vealways been very interested in that as a

(08:00):
sort of an area of kind ofecology. I always thought that Sea four
Station was about carbon draw down,and then when I asked you about that
one other time on a phone conversation, you said, not really, it's
more about biodiversity. So to remindpeople, maybe just start by telling us

(08:22):
your role at Oceanwise, maybe evena bit about Oceanwise itself, and then
let's get into the Sea four stationthings as a component of biodiversity and or
carbon draw down. Yeah. Sure, well, thanks Tim, and it's
a pleasure to be back on theshow. Really enjoyed the last discussion we
had, and yeah, you're right. In April twenty twenty three, I

(08:48):
moved into the four Station role asdirector. Previously with the Youth and Education
Initiative at Oceanwise, really focusing onocean climate literacy, but really delighted to
step into this role with the Cfour Station team and continue our work in
British Columbia and Chile. Just totake a step back on Oceanwise. We

(09:09):
are our global ocean conservation organization ona mission to build communities that take meaningful
action to protect and restore our ocean. We're based in Vancouver. We have
about one and twenty staff of whichabout sixty are NBC, but the other
half are a cross Canada and aroundthe world. We have our main conservation

(09:30):
initiatives which relate to C four Station, which I lead. We have our
Whales initiative, our plastics and ourfisheries and seafood. And then we also
have our youth and Education wing thatreaches over a million young people around the
world each year, really advancing oceanand climate literacy and giving practical actions on

(09:52):
how those young people and can influenceor help their families and friends and communities
take action to protect and restore ourocean. So that's us in a nutshell.
You can always go to ocean dotorg to explore more of the work
that we do and find ways toget involved. You know, there's there's
many activations across the country each andevery year and increasingly internationally, and and

(10:18):
we do very much understand it oceanwisethat it's going to take millions and billions
of people taking action each and everyday in their home, schools and communities
to help move the needle on oceanhelp. Just a little bit of an
overview on oceanwise there. But yeah, you know a little bit about Sea

(10:39):
four station I think. You know, kelp is really new to a lot
of people. You know, kelpis kelp refers to just over one hundred
species of brown seaweed, and sothere's actually a huge amount of diversity at
genetic diversity when we're talking about kelpand and and really the areas ecosystem services

(11:01):
that it provides, which we cancertainly get into. But you know,
kelp is the most extensive marine vegetatedecosystem in the world, and it covers
about twenty five to thirty percent ofthe world shorelines. It covers about one
point two to two million square kilometersof those coastlines, which is about five

(11:22):
times more than coral reefs. It'san incredibly important piece of the ecosystem and
it provides either food, habitat ornursery benefits to over three hundred species in
the ocean. And that's it's it'san incredibly important part of a healthy ocean

(11:43):
ecosystem. But the problem is thatwe're losing quite a bit of kelp.
You know, we've lost global estimatesrange between forty and sixty percent of the
kelp force have been lost. Youknow, typically the main reasons our climate
change and warmer sea surface temperatures,kelp really thrived between six and fourteen degrees

(12:07):
celsius, and once you get upto eighteen nineteen twenty really becomes quite fatal.
And we saw that in twenty fourteento twenty sixteen as the marine peat
blob moved through California or up thePacific coast, that California lost about ninety
five percent of it's bull kelp andit hasn't recovered, and there's corresponding decreases

(12:30):
in fish trees and many other metricsof ocean health. So at oceanwise,
we're with our Sea four Station initiative, we are trying to restore and protect
kelp forests around the world. Wehave some projects in BC in Chile that
I can get into a little bitmore later on, but just really keen

(12:54):
on C four Station as a naturebased solution and or nature natural climate solution,
which are really harnessing the power ofnature to sequestric carbon and protect biodiversity.
So the kelp you're predominantly talking aboutis bull kelp. Right, these

(13:16):
long blades that that you see allover the coast, they provide the natural
habitat for all kinds of organisms.They're the ones that first of all,
let me just make it clearly thatyou're kind of focusing on Yeah, good
question. So yeah, largely weare focused on bull kelp, but also

(13:39):
a macrocystists giant kelp, and toa lesser, lesser extent, we haven't
really had any trials or experiments withsugar kelp, but it is of interest.
Sugar kelp is more primarily used incultivation or aquaculture of kelp, and
we can talk about you know,kelp farms in DC and in Asia and

(14:00):
Chilly as well. I'm kind ofas the harvesting kelp perhaps later on,
but you're right, our primary focusis on the bulk kelp and giant kelp.
So when you when when I thinkof the kelp on the course the
coast of say British Columbia, inparticular, because I have done a lot
of exploring of the coastline by kayak, I come across all the time a

(14:24):
very thick mats of kelp, predominantlybull kelp. These are the ones that
you see sometimes washed up on theon the beach and they have this air
sack. I'd like to know ifyou, if you can explain any of
the biology of that air sack andwhat's contained within them. But you see
these things, they're long long,they can be thirty feet long, and

(14:45):
they're washed up sometimes on the shoreand you can I think people have even
turned them into musical instruments. I'veheard of that happening. But I know
that in BC, the RelA relationshipbetween the otter the sea urchin has really
had played a strong role in thehealth and the sort of the the plentiful

(15:11):
nature of the kelp. So thoseare sort of some leaping off points for
you. Just to describe the bulkhelp a little bit and it's value to
the biodiversity and and sort of ifyou can explain any of the nature of
bulk kelp and why it's so it'sso heavy, Like I've anchored my kayak

(15:33):
within a kelp forest and it holdsthe boat against the tidal current. It's
just a massively strong structure. Apparentlyits very fast as well. Yeah,
absolutely, So you brought up abunch of great points there that I'm just
making a few notes of. So, yeah, and you're right now.

(15:56):
I've also done the recently last threeyears at the pleasure of hiking just the
absolutely beautiful Wanda Fuka Trail and theWest Post Trail. And I do find
it slightly ironic that a couple ofyears ago, you know, walking along
the beach and tripping over all thebull Kelp and kind of cursing it.
Now that I'm now it's ironic,I'm the directors cforestation, and I really

(16:21):
really had no idea about how importantthese these algae were to the ocean ecosystem.
And you're right, you know,bull Kelp have those air filled sacks
just as a quick aside. Thosesacks, known as a pneumaticist, are
filled with a gas that is tenpercent carbon monoxide byproduct of photosynthesis, so

(16:41):
quite a hazardous concoction. Those sacksare really just meant to provide the buoyants
you needed to grow towards the sunlightpenetrating the ocean surface. So you know,
like plants, kelp as a primaryproducer, meaning that it uses energy
from the sun to make its ownfood through through photo synthesis. But you

(17:02):
know, and you're right in thein the sense that bulk help generally prefers
a little bit rougher water, likehigh nutrient, high waterflow. They are
unbelievably tough, you know, andsometimes you know, you can't imagine how
they survive against these very powerful andcrashing waves on the west coast of BC,

(17:23):
but also in just some of theroughest oceans around the world down in
phill in Norway Zealand and other SouthAfrica and other countries around the world.
They do like it a little bittough and as opposed to giant kelp that
prefer slightly calmer waters. But youknow, the bulk help. We're able

(17:44):
to attach themselves to that very rockysubstrate through the hold fast, which you
could consider as kind of the roots, if you will. But to hold
fast attaches to a rock, andthen the stipe grows, which is essenti
with the stem, and stem willproduce the blades, which are essentially the
leaves of the of the kelp,and the soare i then form on the

(18:10):
blades of the kelp, which isthe reproductive cycle. Those sore i are
released into the ocean and that's howfuture kelp is is seated along the ocean.
So just a little very quick pieceon the reproductive cycle. That's very
very high level view. But youwere also talking about the otters and the

(18:30):
urchins. And you know, actuallythat's one of the ecosystem services that kelp
bets provide otters is that they willanchor themselves just much like you will anchor
yourself in the canoe, so thatthey don't float away. And there's you
know, that's where they're kind oftaking care of their young and taking naps,
and they'll just wrap themselves around inthe in the kelp and and make

(18:52):
sure that they don't float too faraway from home. So when when that
kelp is lost, you know,then there's just there unable to do that.
But you know the relationship between seaotters and kelp is is very interesting.
I mean, we've we and veryunfortunately, through the fur trade and
other other practices, we've nearly nearlyexterminated otters from the BCS, from the

(19:18):
BCS from BC's coast, and ottersplay a very important role in that ecosystem,
uh, you know, very simplyby eating a lot of the urchins
that exist on the ocean floor andthat are very foundational part of the ecosystem
in and of themselves. But asthe otters were removed from the food web,

(19:42):
the urchins lost a very important predator. And compounding that issue was the
c star wasting disease that where welost over ninety five percent. I believe
of the of the sunflowers sea starsin DC's waters, and they were also
a primary predator of urchins. Andso we're moving the sea stars and the

(20:06):
otters kind of let the urchins gounabated and literally moving through these kelp forests
like a little army. They willdevour the entire forest and up and down,
house, down and straight. AtGeorgia and many other places along BC's
coast, we now have urchin barrenswhich you'll find up to twenty twenty five

(20:27):
urchins per square meter. I thinka more natural density is generally around two
per square meter or less. Andthere's lots of places where you know,
we were actually just out in RainyBay near Banfield a couple of weeks ago,
and there was we went out toa spot where there was a thriving

(20:48):
bull kelp forest five years ago andwe sent the remote operated vehicle the rob
down below. Take a look,and now it's just covered in urchins.
There's there's not a single piece ofwill help there anymore. So that's a
real that's a real issue and manykind of complex factors as to why the
c stars suffered so poorly. Butthat's an interesting relationship, and so there's

(21:14):
in terms of restoration efforts, youknow, addressing the drivers of decline is
also complex because to kind of flipthat ecosystem back into a steady state requires
kind of the reduction of the urchindensity from about twenty or twenty five for
square meter or whatever the urchin bearnis that down to one or two.
And so that's literally either with diversgoing down and removing those urchins. There's

(21:40):
some interesting companies that are trying totrying to make an urchin industry or urchent
export business work in Canada where they'retaking urchins from urchin barrens onto an onshore
kind of I guess you could saynurse or in a way where they feed
them, fatten them up, andthen sell them for export to other markets

(22:04):
in Canada and across the Pacific.So, you know, Oceanwise is trying
to think about how we could piggybackon those efforts. If the urchin density
is low, is there potential fora restoration project there? And you were
right, you know, you alsomentioned how quickly they grow. Uh,
you know, help is an incredibleorganism. It will grow up to thirty

(22:29):
centimeters per day. It's it's thefastest growing algae in the world. In
that sense, it does it doescreate a lot of organic carbon. But
I think my earlier comment perhaps onthe carbon sequestration potential was there's still a
lot of researchers needed around how muchof that help actually sinks to the ocean

(22:53):
floor the abyss and is and isstored for for the long term, you
know, over one hundred years.I don't think there's some estimates, and
there are some there are some papersthat provide really really interesting estimates around the
amount of kind of organic carbon thatwould be sequestered. But I think there's

(23:17):
more research to be done because wedon't really know, and we know that
we do think that it's a carbonsync But compared to other kind of blue
carbon ecosystems in the salt marshes ormangroves or eel grass, I think KELP
is a little bit new on theresearch front, so it's not really a
big player in the game of carbonsequestering compared to some of these other places

(23:44):
you mentioned. Yeah, yeah right, I mean, you know, like
I said, I think the bottomline is we're not really sure. And
it is highly contextual too, likewhere the kelp is growing. If if
there are large beds right near thefjords and there is kind of like a
you know, a thousand meter dropoff, then it is not unreasonable to

(24:06):
think that perhaps a little bit moreis getting sequestered. But there's just so
many complex processes that happen, youknow, in the ocean, where some
of the dissolved organic carbon might bebrought back up to the surface and released,
and there's just so many other systemsthat we don't know well enough to
say precisely how much carbon would besequestered, which which is a little bit

(24:26):
challenging for policymakers when we're trying tomanage blue carbon ecosystems in Canada, because
kelp is not really included in thatright now, and they do provide really
interesting opportunities to mitigate and adapt toclimate and change. But and there's a
lot of ongoing research, or alot of interesting research ongoing. We just

(24:49):
need to find answer a few morequestions. I guess what do you mean
by blue carbon? Yeah, soblue carbon a little bit of a newer
term, I think, first coinedby James Lovelock in two thousand and nine
and then also in Duarte. Butblue carbon is essentially understanding the carbon cycle

(25:11):
and the carbon sequestration potential from marinethrough different marine ecosystems such as salt marshes
or eel grass or mangroves or kelp. And it's it's it's been gaining a
lot of popularity over the last fewyears. There's a lot of interest in
blue carbon I think, you know, particularly from a kelp point of view,

(25:33):
but also the other the other ecosystemsI mentioned have been in some ways
underappreciated and ignored, but I thinkrapidly understanding their potential to help us fight
climate change and protect the biodiversity,in line with a lot of the twenty
thirty and twenty fifty targets that wehave. So I suppose any carbon sequestering

(25:56):
or carbon cycles that are happening theocean is simply referred then to as your
blue carbon cycles. It makes senseif it's happening in the ocean. Yeah,
and it's going to be very complex. It is incredibly complex, and
as I may have mentioned before,I don't have messages. I don't have
a background and read biology or youknow, marincles, and some of the

(26:19):
papers that I'm reading are a littlebit above my head. But there's a
lot of smart people. We're workingon these issues and trying to answer some
of the important questions so that wecan't create a really impactful and equitable and
responsible management plant for blue carbon ecosystemsin Canada. Undoubtedly they have an important
role to play. I was thinkingabout the urchins, about how it's sort

(26:44):
of comparable to the mountain pine beetle, like when I think first, as
I was saying to you earlier,I'd been hiking recently in Manning Park and
I remember twenty twenty five years ago, Manning Park in British Columbia was just
a sea of red pine because theywere dead. They'd been eaten to the
core by these pine beetle. Butyou know, when you're there now,

(27:06):
the forest is much greener, andI think it's most people seem to have
come to the conclusion that the mountainpine deal kind of ate itself out of
house and home and starved itself outbecause it was so voracious. Is I
mean you think of of an urchinbarren. Well, there's twenty five urchins
per square meter and nothing left toeat. Isn't there going to be some

(27:27):
sort of natural resetting in their population? Yeah? Interesting. I guess what
I would say to that is thatthe urchins can go dormant for for many
years. I don't exactly know whatthe what the max's amount of time would
be, but they can stay theredormant for at least several years. And

(27:51):
so if any you know, KELPstarts to pop back up, they just
kind of go and eat it rightaway. And so it's very difficult for
the KELP for us to re establishitself when we have these dormant urchins.
It's uh, yeah, you know. I think that's there's an interesting project
in High to Guai where they've doneurchin removal and smashing, and encourage any

(28:15):
of the listeners who are a littlebit who are interested in that to explore
that project a little bit more.I think that's a partnership with a few
stakeholders. But it's it's it's timeintensive to remove those urchins. It's expensive,
and you know, when we're talkingabout the necessity to restore hundreds of
thousands, if not millions of hectaresof kelp force that have been lost.

(28:38):
You know, doing this kind ofhalf a hectare or one hectare at a
time, is it's not quite goingto get us to the scale that we
need. So you know, there'sthere's there's a really interesting kind of decision
tree around the around how we chooserestoration sites and ocean wise. Is it

(28:59):
developing a project with a few universitiesin BC not quite finalized yet, but
to really study the climate resilient spotsalong BC's coast to focus our time and
energy on future restoration projects because Ithink it's not a question of if,
but when you know, the marineheat blob would roll through and we don't

(29:19):
want to have that essentially destroy someof the projects that we've invested time and
money into, So you know,on that kind of on that note,
there's also some interesting work I wouldsay led by SFU but as well as
others on the preservation of the geneticdiversity of KELP and BC and really trying

(29:44):
to collect genet examples from along thecoast and preserve them before they could be
lost. And that's that's really interestingand critical work that that oceanwise would contribute
to where possible, whether that's collectingsamples or or or other other ways.
But it's it's unfortunately kind of anecessity right now as there is as kelp

(30:10):
continues to be lost up and downthe BC coast well, and that's really
the role that you're playing when itcomes to sea forestation. I'd like to
find out how that that process works, because if they're now taking genetic samples
of kelp, I suppose that's goingto allow scientists to develop some sort of
even genetically modified version. I mean, if there's going to be heat blobs

(30:33):
or are we going to work ona on a kelp this more heat resilient.
But somehow or other, you're actuallyseeding the ocean floor. I want
you to tell us about how thatprocess works and what sort of success you've
had and actually planting help through thesea. Yeah. Absolutely, so I

(30:56):
would say first, first of all, it's it's readibly important to ensure that
we're doing no harm, you know, and there's there's a lot of potential
for you know, the introduction ofdifferent species of kelp into different ecosystems that
may have not been there before.And so even you know where we source

(31:17):
the seed. You know, wewe would never plant kelp or seed kelp
that where the seed wasn't collected withinI believe twenty five kilometers of the site.
So there's just the account of theresponsibility to do this and in the
in the safest way possible is aboututmost importance to oceanwise, as well as

(31:40):
working very closely collaborating and co developingthese projects with coastal communities and indigenous communities
up and down BC's coast and inChile, really harnessing and working together to
understand the traditional ways of knowing aroundperhaps existing kelp beds and and traditional kelp

(32:02):
planting methodologies, and so many ofthe first Nations communities that we're working with
NBC have known where kelp was beforeand now may have disappeared, and working
with them to develop projects that areand really trials at this point because there's

(32:22):
so many different outplanting methodologies that wewant to try and refine before we take
a lot of these projects to scale. But working very closely with those communities
to make sure that the rights andstakeholders are are are heard and consulted so
on that on that front we haveour nursery at p SX. So this

(32:45):
is a really cool kelp nursery wherewe're growing baby kelp and there's again there's
lots of people who know more aboutthis than I do. But at you
know, right about now, actually, in the next couple of weeks,
we're going to go out and collectsome or i from a few of the
blades in and around Vancouver, andwe take those sorei back to the lab

(33:07):
at the Pacific Science Enterprise Center justnear Horseshoe Bay and we start we start
culturing those that stori and the storythe life cycle of kelp is interesting.
It though sor i will turn intocommutaphights, which will then turn into spora
fights, which are microscopic baby kelps. You can see a little blade off

(33:29):
the stipe and you can keep thosespora fights for about six seven weeks before
you out plant them and the outplanting. So there's a whole complicated science
to getting them from sori to commutophytesspora fights and keeping them alive. And
there's a whole bunch of water qualitypieces that we're perfecting. We actually just
launched our nursery and in March oftwenty twenty three, and so this will

(33:52):
be our full season kind of undergoingthe process and very excited to get that
going. We've had some wonderful frompartners INNBC and across Canada to get that
up and running. But the outplantingmethodologies are something that there's a there's a
range of organizations and people and stakeholderswho are testing this out and so it's

(34:15):
really a collaborative community learning as wego, trying to understand what works,
what doesn't work, trying to sharethose lessons learned. But what we've had
success with is one of the newertechniques called green gravel. So when we
have the communa fights, you canactually interestingly, those the gamuta fights are

(34:36):
kind of hardiest around day eighteen orday nineteen. I suppose you can actually
blend them up and create millions morecommuta fights. That will then kind of
increase the production and the number ofsport fights that you have. But then
the sporta fights are added to greengravels. So imagine we have this basic
kind of a very simple three footby three foot not very deep maybe a

(34:58):
foot deep white tub. Uh,there's a couple of thousand pieces of gravel
in that tub and you and youinoculate the gravel with the spora fights of
the kelp, and so the babykelp attached themselves to the green gravel.
And then you can take that greengravel and on the test site, uh,
you know, basically kind of spreadit over board, you know,

(35:21):
in your canoe if you're canoeing aroundthe coast. It's a little bit of
course, it's more structured than that, but the green gravel provides the initial
substrate for the kelp hold fast tostart from. And you lay those thousand
pieces of gravel in the restoration siteand kelp will grow from that. So

(35:42):
we had a test site in RainyBay that we outplant it last year and
we actually were just there a coupleof weeks ago to take a look,
but we were also monitoring in Marchof this year and on one hundred meter
transsect we have with giant kelp,there's there's just incredible growth. You know,
there's a healthy and thriving kelp forestthere. And as that, you

(36:06):
know, as that kelp will reproducethis year, it will send millions of
sauri into the waters around it andperhaps seed the second generation of growth.
And so it's really there's there's prosand cons for sure around green gravel.
I mean, it is it isquite heavy to transport, so if you're
thinking about doing this in terms ofhunters of hectares, but you know,

(36:27):
there's really no infrastructure in the water, and traditionally with restoration and cultivation,
you would have kind of anchors plantedon the ocean floor and you would have
these ropes strung across. And youknow, there's lots of pictures online of
of of kelp farms INBC and andaround the world, but that infrastructure is
is expensive and it's it's time intensive, and it needs to be removed afterwards,

(36:52):
and there is there's a slight kindof risk of entanglements in some areas.
So you know, whenever we're puttingthings in the ocean, we're trying
to find more elegant solutions that wouldn'tsend necessufrastructure in the ocean. As we
take this scale. We have donesome testing with the bull kelp and giant
kelp online, so that is essentiallythe same principle. Where at the nursery

(37:16):
in the lab we are inoculating thistwine with thousands of spora fights and they
are really sticky, you know,they like to stick to that twine,
and then the twine is wrapped aroundthe rope, the rope is transported to
the restoration site, it is sunk, it is attached to the anchors,
and then the kelp will grow alongthat line. And there's benefits to the

(37:38):
line because if you're doing it overan urchin barren, then the urchins can't
get up to the rope to actuallyeat and you know, or one of
the kelp crabs that can't get upto the rope to eat all the kelp
before it actually takes off. Soyeah, we've got another project in Berrard
Inlets this year. We have awonderful out hunting and experiment in Prince Rupert

(38:02):
and then we're in discussion with anumber of other communities in BC about potential
restoration projects in their waters. Andthen we have a very exciting project in
Chile that we'll see some kelp inthe water later this year or early next
year. But Chile is kind ofthe I guess, one of the one

(38:24):
of the holdouts for kelp in theworld. You know, they haven't really
seen the declines that we've seen inBC and the environment is just extremely suitable
for kelp growth and expansion in theecosystem. I'd love to see something like
that be developed, that a scienceclass could attempt to germinate these these kelp

(38:51):
sport fights in the classroom and thenhave them transported. It reminds me of
that when we and I think itstill happens where people take sam into the
classroom and when the salmon gets tothe point where they're large enough as a
fried we put into the water,they'd take them out and buckets and and
we have a big salmon release.But wouldn't it be cool to have kelp
releases? You know? Yeah?Yeah, well we I just heard from

(39:15):
a school on the Islands they havethey have a diving program, and you
know they're interested in, you know, perhaps doing some restoration work or some
monitoring around some of the kelp bedsthat they have near the school. And
so, I yeah, I thinkthere's a there's a lot of potential to
bring in different aspects of Sea HorrorStation into the classroom. We will be

(39:38):
working with our Ocean Bridge alumni thisyear and having some workshops at the nursery,
and so I think it's it's anincredibly interesting topic. There's there's a
lot of excitement from from young peopleas as as well as more experienced folks
around kelp for sure. Well,and it's really just a science experiment,

(40:00):
isn't it, because you don't reallyknow how well it's going to take.
You know, you're talking about twentytwenty three having your first generation of these
kelp and it's so one thing leadsto another. Is a hypothesis, it's
an experimental design, it's an experiment, and then it's an observation and data
collection to see how well it worked. It's everything that a science experiment is

(40:22):
kind of supposed to be, butat a very practical level in an attempt
to revive the kelp population, whichmany people probably wouldn't even know is sort
of being decimated by this whole otterurchin mismaps has taken place over the last
number of decades. What was thename of that that lab that you mentioned

(40:45):
up near Horseshoe Bay And what's thework do they do there? So it's
the Pacific Science Enterprise Center. It'sa DFO owned and operated building focusing on
research and conservation. And I don'tknow exactly sure how they would describe themselves.
But it's a wonderful facility and they'vebeen kind enough to lend us some

(41:07):
space and some water to set upour our tent and our nursery outside.
And there's also they also have anAtlantic Science Enterprise Center. I think it
might be in Monkedin. Don't quoteme on that. Yeah, it's just
part of part of DFO's work.I'm gonna look them up because it sounds

(41:30):
like it would be a I wonderif they'd take classes for field trips and
or have experts that would be willingto share information about the kind of work
that they're doing. Yeah, Ithink so. I mean they have the
part of the mandate is around education. I think they would you know,
be quite happy to try and toorganize something. And I know there's there's

(41:51):
some space on site and it's ayeah, you know, it's a whole
bunch of the conversations with them andand all of this marine work is I
think just providing some interesting career opportunitiesfor young people to consider that you might
not be front and center, andI well, yeah, I grew up
in Edmonton. You know, it'sthere was no talk talk about it,

(42:15):
help or even really much about theocean when I was growing up in high
school. So, but it's oneof the greatest practical applications of a science
education is to see how the interactionsbetween different species and the changing conditions is
caused by perhaps excess absorption of COtwo, This causing changes in either air

(42:36):
temperature which affects water temperature, orperhaps CO two affecting the level of the
pH level in the ocean. Allthese different sort of interconnected factors that we're
kind of just waking up to.In the last couple of decades and probably
even more recently in the last fouror five years, people are really starting
to talk about the effects of combustionand how we always thought the oceans just

(42:59):
too we can't, we can't affectit. But it turns out we can.
Whether that's from a sort of excesspollution, or from sewage runoff or
agricultural runoff, or from overfishing orover hunting. Yeah, we actually can
have a major impact, a negativeimpact on the condition of the ocean.

(43:20):
And and you're kind of right inthe middle of it, experimenting on ways
to revive it. And I lovehow you say that the planting of this
green gravel. You're very particular,even to the point of we're not going
to take sporal fights from one regionand deposit them five hundred kilometers away in

(43:42):
another region, because you just don'tknow if that's going to have a positive
or negative impact, so you stickwith the local conditions. I like that.
Yeah, yeah, Well, Imean the principle of intunal harm or
just the cautionary approach I think needsto be embraced. I mean, I
think we would also argue that seefor station, you know, kelp restoration

(44:07):
is really a win win win andare there are very few regrets, and
I think the risk is relatively youknow, I think or the rest of
the risk is relatively low. Andwe know there are so many benefits two
kelper restoration, and not only forthe climate and biodiversity, but there's a
whole bunch of interesting social benefits andco benefits that that could be realized.

(44:31):
And you know, there's there's theopportunity for positive and sustainable livelihoods. You
know, we haven't talked too muchabout the cultivation aspect of kelp, but
it is it is a growing market, you know, and oftentimes they can
provide great jobs in coastal communities thatmight not have a lot of other opportunities,

(44:53):
or they've seen other industries or economicopportunities decline, whether that's fisheries or
well anything any other industry that theymight be involved in. And so the
opportunity to create jobs and actually eitherexport some of that kelp that is harvested
or process it nearby could create additionaljobs and then also perhaps the revenue from

(45:15):
the downstream products that are created.So, you know, not many,
I would say, it's not verywell known kelp, and a wide range
of commercial products are that are requirekelp as an input. You know,
the number one byproduct really of kelpbeing alginate, which is used in a

(45:35):
whole bunch of imulsifiers and cosmetics andother other dietary kind of food systems.
It's it's incredibly versatile and there's anincreasing demand for that. But there's also
just directly helped products and help canreally contribute to food security in some areas,
and I think that has probably beenunderlooked. I think there's I don't

(45:59):
know how the market in Canada isdoing necessarily, but I think as we
as generally, we understand that plantbased diets are better for the climate and
the environment. I think kelp couldprovide a really interesting substitute for some of
our other food choices. And youknow, as well, you have to
it's really important to appreciate that thecultivation of kelp requires no land, that

(46:23):
no water, you know, andso as we're struggling with some of the
terrestrial agricultural systems that we have andall the issues that those pose, I
think that should really be explored alittle bit more in depth around those values.
And you know, even just asimportant, if not more, are
as kind of the cultural and spiritualsignificance of kelp for many communities INBC,

(46:46):
and as well as the culturally importantspecies that those kelp support. You know,
it's just off the top of myhead, you know, harring and
salmon, you know, haring,many hairy play their egg their row in
kelp. So as we're using kelp, that's really diminishing the habitat for culturally
important species such as herring. Sojust you know, there's there's there's so

(47:09):
many benefits to kelp, not onlyfrom the harvesting point, but you can
also of course just leave it thereand and let in nature use it.
As it's intended and hundreds of speciesthat rely on it at some point in
their life cycle. So Oceanwise isreally focused on understanding and refining kind of

(47:31):
the model of restoration. And youknow that it is true that this work
is not it's not for free.You know, it takes a lot of
time and resources to make these projectshappen, and so understanding some of the
different revenue sources that could be realizedthrough kelp restoration. You know, we
haven't talked about carbon offsets and credits, or about diversity offsets or credits,

(47:54):
but the we all know that thesekelp forces are providing valuable ecosystem services and
kind of putting a monetary figure onthat is is very difficult and in some
ways controversial, but the value ofthose ecosystem services and should be realized and

(48:15):
they should be that that value shouldhelp to protect them or to finance the
restoration of kelp force And so that'sjust another thing that we're looking into.
But yeah, it's when we're talkingabout nature based solutions, you know,
I think help is one of themost exciting ones. It solves we need

(48:38):
these solutions that now that solve multipleproblems and kelp is certainly fits the bill,
and certainly a kelp farm would havefar less negative impact than a salmon
farm. You know, we're Ibelieve in Canada the salmon farms are supposed

(48:59):
to be out by twenty twenty five, but evidence on the coast doesn't seem
to indicate that they're packing up.In fact, they almost seem to be
expanding. And the negative impact ofa salmon farm open net salmon farming is
horrible. And I don't think you'regoing to get any of those sort of
negative impacts by having a kelp farm. Am I right in saying that?

(49:21):
Well, yes and no. Ithink you know, the science is still
out on on cultivation at scale,and so I think what we want to
avoid is essentially the monocultural monocultural culturingof the oceans. And so you know,
we wouldn't want see kilometers and kilometersof lines, you know, a

(49:45):
figure kelp, because there is thereis the potential of sort of nutrient depletion.
And you know, if if you'rekind of rotating that kelpsrough the ocean,
there are the nutrients that other partsof the ecosystem would need and value,
and if those are being used disproportionatelyby the kelp, then that could
lead to a problem. But sothere's a lot more research that needs to

(50:08):
be done on that, but Ithink there is a pathway forward to do
it sustainably and there are there aresome climate and biodiversity benefits that cultivation can
provide. You know, if aportion of that is left to go to
seed and reproduce and kind of releasesthose souri, then that could be a

(50:30):
benefit. But I think at theend of the day, generally with the
with the harvesting and the cultivation,you are taking that biomass out of the
water, which reduces some of thebiodiversity and climate benefits that you know,
true restoration would provide by you know, leaving of kelp for us in the
water and leaving them there kind ofin the whole. So there's much more

(50:53):
to say about that, and Ithink there's there's also interesting wild harvesting opportunities
where you know, I think furtherresearch again is needed, but not so
much. Unlike the basil or mintthat you might have on your balcony,
when you do kind of harvest thator trim that in the right way,
you can actually end up with muchmore compared to having just left it.

(51:15):
And so when you're trimming help ata certain point and a certain amount,
you can actually increase the biomass ofthe forest if you do it correctly.
So that's an interesting secondary event.But isn't it fascinating how everything you say
comes back to but there's still moreresearch to be done. And you compare
that to one hundred and twenty yearsago when we walked into a forest of

(51:39):
old growth and said, wow,look at all the value in that trees.
We just cut them down willy nilly, and then to come back and
to plant and to plant a monoculturedforest, thinking while they'll just grow back
and then we'll cut them back downand maybe a seventy year crop rotation.
And the negative impact on our forestsis it just was all done without any

(52:00):
of this research that you're talking about. And even you know, go back
to agriculture across the Canadian prairie wherereally it's a monoculture ecosystem. We plant
grains and that's what we grow now, and it has what's been the negative
impact? I mean, I guessit's been positive because it provides food for
us to eat, and it's toughbecause we need wood to build houses and

(52:22):
we need wheat to eat in ournutrition. But I think all of those
things were done originally without any realthought to what the long term implications are.
But none of that seems to behappy with what you're saying. Is
there's all kinds of thought being givento the long term implications. And that's
where I see the really big differencein what you're saying to what's been happening

(52:45):
in other sectors. Yeah, Imean, it's I have no doubt that
probably folks one hundred years from nowwon't quite be able to believe what we're
currently doing still right now. ButI take your point that, you know,
yeah, one hundred years ago,I think there was there was just

(53:07):
a completely different worldview and uh andreally lack of understanding of the impact of
that. And I think, youknow, that's that's a very that's a
complex and interesting discussion. And Iyou know, I hear you as well,
even just from some of the recenthikes and trips seeing seeing some of

(53:28):
the logging that happened and kind ofthe extent of it, what it must
have looked like a hundred years agois kind of hard to wrap your mind
around and I, uh, youknow interesting that. Well, I guess
the point is that I'm glad nowadayswe're trying to be a little bit more
cautious and proactive about understanding some ofthe risks. And I think we're we

(53:50):
are all approaching this in a ina very pragmatic way, but also trying
to understand it's all of the potentialrisks that might happen. But I think,
you know, there's there's a carefulbalance there because we are in climate
and piodiversity crisis. You know,we don't have a lot of time to

(54:15):
understand everything to you know, thefinest possible point that we can. And
I think there's you know, oneof the you know, one of the
values emotion wise is just to takeaction. And you know, there's a
lot of solutions that we have thatwe know work that simply you need to
be implemented or amplified or shared.And I think that's why we're so keen

(54:39):
on the C four station work isbecause we know that KELP is a no
regrets climate and biodiversity and social solution, and so of course we're working with
the best available knowledge, both fromkind of a Western perspective and the traditional
knowledge that we're we're able to getfrom elders up and down the BC coast,

(55:02):
and very grateful for that for thosesharings, but we know that we
need to move quickly and that wedon't have five or ten years to complete
kind of every study that we wouldlike to around around celt before we actually
get more of it in the water. One major point I'd like to get

(55:22):
to before we wrap up is theeducation piece. And you think of all
these things you're talking about now,if anybody has been to the West Coast
or any coastline, it's just abeautiful place to be. It's it's compelling
by nature, it's emotional, it'sit's attractive, and it attracts a person's

(55:43):
sense of well being in connection tothe planet and all these great things.
A person in a classroom learning aboutthese things, I found in my experience
anyway, is led to wanting toget involved. And this is what I've

(56:05):
focused on my entire teaching career around, which is let's learn about these things.
Because what ends up happening is thestudent gets drawn in at emotional level
and instead of just at a textbooklevel, and they find a connection like,
for instance, this idea of sportfight community fight the haploid and the
diploid stages of reproduction, and youtalked about blending, and that's sort of

(56:28):
some sort of fragmentation, some asexualreproduction is happening. And we learn about
all these things in a biology classroom, but to learn about them in this
context is meaningful and relevant and itmakes me think, wow, can I
do that? Can I get involvedsomehow? And in fact the answer is
yes, you can because Oceanwise hastwo things, one for younger teens called

(56:51):
C Youth to C and for twentysomethings called ocean Bridge. So if people
want to get involved, what doI deal with this knowledge? Now?
How can I go there and savethe world with with Oceanwise? Yeah,
well, I mean that's that isthe million dollar question. And I said
at the at the at the start, But I would also encourage once again

(57:15):
just all of the listeners to goto ocean dot org and check out some
of the youth and education work thatwe have used to see ocean Bridge,
mobile Education, all of these programsare are really world class. On the
team is doing some some wonderful workacross the country and internationally, to advanced
ocean and climate literacy to young peopleand to to to all citizens of the

(57:39):
world. But yeah, I wouldsay, you know, kelp is interesting
because it is it's trickier for youknow, a lot of students to actually
to get to the coast and thenbe actually find some kelp. But I
think there's there's there's The first stepis really just to learn a little bit
more about the importance of kelp tothe climate and to biodiversity and to communities,

(58:02):
to coastal communities. So there's wehave our C four Station page on
the website, and we have ourBenefits of C four Station report that kind
of gives a high level overview.I think, you know, if you
can find some kelp washed up onshore near your home, if you're lucky
enough to live near near kelp,then I would encourage you to try and

(58:24):
identify some of the parts of thekelp plant. You know, which species
is it, you know, wheredo you think it maybe came from,
or what was the general health ofit. Be careful with the with the
air sack of the bull kelp ifyou do find it, but just kind
of understanding because you know, evenwhen I was walking up and down the
West Coast Trail, I don't thinkI took the time to really pick it

(58:46):
up, look at it, appreciateit, and and understand kind of its
role and in this complex ecosystem thatwe call our ocean. And finally,
I would say, I mean theone of the existential threats to kelps climate
change. And I think one ofthe most important things that people can do

(59:08):
is to help move and activate theirfriends and families and communities to engage in
the political process and you know,vote with your dollar and generally try and
reduce reduce your footprint, but alsoadvocate and push systemic change to start to

(59:34):
reduce our emissions in Canada and worldwide, because if climate change and kind of
the rate of emissions that we currentlyhave continue, you know, it's almost
it's inevitable that the ocean is goingto keep warming up, and that's to
the detriment of healthy kelp forests.So you know, that's a that's a

(59:54):
big ask. I know, that'ssomething that we all need to kind of
tackle together. But as a youngperson, there's there's few things in life
as as moving or convincing as aas an articulate and informed young person.
I think nobody should discount kind ofthe level or the impact that they can

(01:00:17):
make. You know, we've seenthrough ocean Bridge and Youth to See in
our other work, the incredible contributionsthat young people can and do make on
a daily basis. It's really justquite truly inspiring. So if you have
that energy, if you have thatfire, try and get in touch with
us on one of those teams andperhaps you can be part of the next

(01:00:38):
ocean Bridge or Youth to See cohortand and get involved even in a deeper
way and restoration and the broader workthat Oceanwise does. So in the Youth
to See program, this is asort of thing that student would actually do.
They just describe what does the programlook like to a teenager if they
joined up with Youth to See.Yeah, no, it's so it's I

(01:01:00):
think Youth to See as a sixmonth or eight month commitment really that you
know, very quite light. Youknow, it's only one or two hours
a week, I believe, andeveryone should double check these these facts on
the Oceanwise website. But it reallyis youth lad and so around some of
the service projects that youth design isreally up to them. There are some

(01:01:23):
broad parameters, but we're not prescriptiveon what type of projects youth would take
up. So if there was aninterest around Kelp and Kelp restoration, then
that's entirely possible to explore. AsI mentioned, I think in October and
November we'll be taking some of theyouth to see and Ocean Bridge members out
to the nursery for a few workshops. You know that on the water restoration

(01:01:47):
or field work experience is a littlebit trickier just because boats are limited size
and lots of interesting liability that spenceras well, so those opportunities are a
little bit more limited. But certainlywe're trying to we're interested to kind of
leverage more of the opportunities that thenursery provides to provide a little bit more

(01:02:10):
hands on or experiential education around atleast one part of the Kelp restoration project.
Well, I know that I wason one of the BC ferries this
summer and lo and behold there wasa whole cohort of youth to see kids
on board, all wearing their OceanwiseT shirts. I went up and talk
to them and I asked them whatthey were doing on that particular day.
They were heading to Galiano Island towalk the whale trail and hoping to do

(01:02:36):
some whale sighting from land, andif that didn't work out, they were
going to do some exploring of thetitle pools in the intertitle zone. And
they're all excited. They are allthrilled to be part of, you know,
learning about the ocean on a beautifulsummer day. And I thought that
was great. Here they were.They weren't even you know, it wasn't
even a it was July, itwasn't a school day, and he had

(01:03:00):
all these kids got of volunteering togo out and learn, right right.
I thought that was great. Andmore people get involved, and yeah,
no, it is wonderful. AndI think, you know, the commitment
that I've seen, as I saidbefore, has been it's been so impressive.
It's not yeah, it's not abouta school day or a work day.

(01:03:21):
You know, these young people aregoing above beyond and the work that
they do and trying to trying todo everything they can to help protect them
restore our ocean. So yeah,it's great. Glad you saw them on
the ferry they're they're they've got abusy schedule right now and already excited.
I think recruitment is actually open rightnow if I'm not mistaken for for Ocean

(01:03:42):
Bridge and youth to see. Sonot a bad time to check out the
website and potentially apply. But yeah, they're great, and yeah glad you
met them on the ferry. Ihad them come out to my school back
in the winter we had the OceanDome and they gave a beautiful presentation to
dozens and dozens of our students,and it was led by Raya and Ethan,

(01:04:02):
So shout out to those two.They did a great job. And
those are the leaders I actually sawon the ferry as well. So it's
need to see people who I knewfor emotion wise, and they're excited to
be leading this team, and they'rethey're traveling. They've been traveling across the
country with that Ocean Dome where theyactually go into into this sort of it's

(01:04:23):
like a star dome, but you'reinside of a tent with a projector shining
up on the inside and you seedifferent things and they tell you what you're
looking at, and all kinds offootage from undersea cameras. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, it's they're ontheir way back from there across country
tour. And I would encourage ifthere are any teachers who are interested in

(01:04:47):
having the Sea Dome come to theirschool this fall or in the winter in
and around the Vancouver area in theLower Mainland, or let's go to yeah,
ocean dot org and then education andyou should find more information about mobile
education there and it is an incredibleprogram. We visited or we interacted with

(01:05:10):
about thirty thousand young people over thecourse of the summer on the Cross Canada
tour and really yeah, some amazing, amazing stories. So lots going on
as well as the plastics team.We have a Vancouver event going on for
International Coastal Cleanup Day on September sixteenth, as well as our main big event

(01:05:31):
in Toronto. So folks are interestedin getting involved and helping on a shoreline
cleanup, that would be that wouldbe a good day to get involved.
But we run shoreline cleanups throughout theyear. So yeah, it's all about
education, isn't it. And youguys doing a great job of that.
I think we've covered a lot ofgood stuff here today and hopefully inspired some

(01:05:55):
teachers to jump onto the ocean dotorg website and grab some of the resources
that you guys have and maybe youget some of their students headed your way
for the different programs you have.It's my hope that teachers will take this
information and actually incorporated into the existingcurriculum, but make it come alive with
this sort of knowledge. And sothank you very much for bringing it once

(01:06:15):
again to Science three sixty. Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you very
much Tim for having me as apleasure. And if there are, if
they are educators who would like toget in touch with me around some other
resources on C four station or KELP. I've got a few, you know,
high lovel reports that are a goodstarting place for it and perhaps explore

(01:06:39):
other options. But yeah, reallyappreciate the invites and enjoyed my time today.
Well we'll drop all the links intothe show notes and people who can
click away at their hearts content,So there you go. Awesome, Thanks
Scott, that sounds perfect, ThanksJim. Be sure to check out more
episodes of Science three sixty, suchas episode eighty two Loosening the reins on

(01:07:03):
teaching with doctor Tim Daisy as hediscusses his book Wisdom Factories. Very interesting
discussion with doctor Gary Berger who wrotea biography a beautiful pictorial biography of Albert
Einstein in episode eighty and doctor GregHammer, Stanford medical professor who wrote a

(01:07:24):
book called Gain Without Pain for medicalProfessionals, however, very applicable to teaching
professionals. Lots more on the titlelist. Have a look, find one
that you might find interesting and havea listen. Thanks everybody to have a
great day.