November 27, 2023 • 49 mins
Jo-Anne St. Godard has had a circular economy mindset for decades. A simple Google search and you will see that Jo-Anne has been advocating for an economy that relies less on extraction and new goods from raw materials, and moreso on repurposing existing materials into a second, third and fourth life. A regular guest on news reports, a speaker at conferences and lobbying the government for a more responsible, lower carbon emitting, circular economy.
Now as the Executive Director of the Circular Innovation Council of Canada, Jo-Anne is one of Canada's leaders in the shift away from consumerism, and is a strong advocate for adding value to what has traditionally been "thrown away".
If you listen to enough of my episodes, you will know by now that I am right there with Jo-Anne. There is no "away", the planet cannot continue to be humanity's garbage can and the oceans our toilet. There are enough materials already made that with some planning and foresight, we can cut down on our selfish use of Earth's resources and make use of what we already have.
I also beleive that the path forward in all of this is education. I'm a teacher and quite possibly you are too. I use my platform to raise awareness and instill a "stop and think" approach to the behaviours of extract, manufacture, transport, use, break, toss and repeat. The solution to all of this is educating the young people and empowerin them with the opportunity to imagine and create the future that they want to grow up in.
Please follow the work of Jo-Anne St. Godard via the website:
https://circularinnovation.ca
Now as the Executive Director of the Circular Innovation Council of Canada, Jo-Anne is one of Canada's leaders in the shift away from consumerism, and is a strong advocate for adding value to what has traditionally been "thrown away".
If you listen to enough of my episodes, you will know by now that I am right there with Jo-Anne. There is no "away", the planet cannot continue to be humanity's garbage can and the oceans our toilet. There are enough materials already made that with some planning and foresight, we can cut down on our selfish use of Earth's resources and make use of what we already have.
I also beleive that the path forward in all of this is education. I'm a teacher and quite possibly you are too. I use my platform to raise awareness and instill a "stop and think" approach to the behaviours of extract, manufacture, transport, use, break, toss and repeat. The solution to all of this is educating the young people and empowerin them with the opportunity to imagine and create the future that they want to grow up in.
Please follow the work of Jo-Anne St. Godard via the website:
https://circularinnovation.ca
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Mmmm. Welcome back to another episodeof Science three sixty. This is Tim
Stevenson, your host, and onthis episode I have Joanne Saint Gotter of
the Circular Innovation Council of Canada,where we're gonna get into the conversation about
the famous three hours you know,reduce, reuse, recycle, but not
just that. There's so many morethings that we have to consider, like
(00:23):
repair, rethink, reduce, refuse, regift, readjust, reiterate, rekindle,
resell, rediscover, retire. Thispodcast is a proud member of the
Teach Better Podcast Network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow and the podcast to get
(00:44):
you there. Explore more podcasts atwww dot Teach Better Podcastnetwork dot com.
Now let's get onto the episode.There are certain things in life that you
can't get enough of. People writesongs about them. How you just can't
(01:06):
have too much money, you can'thave too much fun, you can't share
too much love. These sort ofideas exist because people thrive on good times
and good fun. And what aboutat school? What lessons can you not
get enough of? I could probablymake a lengthy list, because I've made
a career out of teaching, notso much out of a requirement laid out
in a document, but from aneed to know basis. I literally plan
(01:32):
my time in the classroom around lessonsthat I believe in my heart. That
students need to know things like futuretech trends, the future of power and
transportation, conservation, how mental wellbeing can be found in nature, that
we're a part of nature, andthat understanding the natural world enhances or desire
to improve it for the present andfor the future. In research done by
(01:56):
one of my previous guests, Mariavan Valas from episode six, two,
high school students have declared that theywant more climate science and related subjects brought
to their classes in high school,that climate anxiety is real and a truthful
conversation is required to go ahead togo head to head with the issues that
they're concerned about. And this bringsme to today's episode. My guest Joanne
(02:22):
Saint Goddard has served as the executiveDirector of Circular Innovation Council since two thousand
and one. Her expertise focuses onthe development of policies, programs, practices
that advances the circular economy and drivespositive environmental, economic, and social outcomes.
I don't think you can have toomany conversations like this one about our
(02:45):
consumeristic tendencies, our buy it,use it, toss it mentality. We
need to bring our classes a conversationabout the finite nature of our planet,
how an extractive game has wreaked havocon our natural resources, and an empowerment
of our youth with strategies to shiftaway from a linear economy and towards a
(03:07):
circular economy is key to a brightfuture. And this is what Yuenn brings
to this episode. I've already seenit where students are proud of their thrifting
of secondhand clothes. I've heard studentstalk about their concerns for a healthy planet,
so there is a growing awareness.But I'm still seeing a lot of
single use plastic, for instance,and a lot of new electronics being purchased
(03:30):
because it's the newest and the shiniest. So we're headed in the right direction,
but we're not there yet. Iwant to see students hanging on to
old phones, fixing the tear andtheir snowboarding pants, ditching the single use
plastic cups for a washable travel mug, being conscious of their carbon footprint when
asking for a five minute ride toschool, and taking ownership of their consumables.
(03:54):
Yes, this sort of conversation needsto be allowed to influence the themes
that you bring to your science class. The ideas here need to find a
home in your brain and then beallowed to find their way into conversations with
your students, to be embedded inyour lessons, and to be an area
of direct research by your students.I hope you find yourself nodding in agreement
(04:17):
as you listen to Joan, andthat you find yourself allowing your students to
be creative and imaginative and developing newways to take part in a circular economy.
So now let's get started with thisconversation with Joanne Saint Goddard of the
Circular Innovation Council of Canada, Andbe sure to check the links in the
show notes and you'll find more fromJoanne there. If we're going to solve
(04:44):
any sort of environmental crisis, anyany aspect of the environmental crisis, is
going to be through education, andit starts there and then it magnifies after
that. But people have to firstknow you know, agreed, So,
Circular Innovation Council Johann Saint Godard,why don't you tell us, first of
(05:04):
all, what is the Circular InnovationCouncil, where it's come from, and
what functional role it plays in thein the country of Canada. Well,
thanks for the question. So theCircular Innovation Council is actually a rebranded and
expanded organization that revealed itself in Juneof twenty twenty, just sort of rate
(05:30):
after, right in the middle ofthe pandemic. The pidemic really had nothing
to do with the timing of ourunveiling, but for four decades before that
timeline, we were the Recycling Councilof Ontario, a not for profit organization
that was pretty focused on end oflife management of materials, trying to direct
them back into production, you know, away from disposal, so really kind
(05:55):
of focused on waste and waste andrecycling and prevention of waste. So that
that work over time gave us apretty strong foundation for what is now the
work of the Circular Innovation Council,And as I mentioned in June of twenty
twenty, we decided to rebrand theorganization with that name for a couple of
(06:16):
reasons that I'll talk about the second, but also moved from a provincial organization
to a national one good idea.So that that really mostly because the Ontario
on our name was not in keepingwith you know, kind of where our
works were. We were finding ourselves, if not national, maybe even international,
(06:40):
sometimes internationally. So we wanted toexpand the work of the organization.
But also because there was this growingglobal conversation about the transition of the take
make waste linear typical economy into what'sknown as the circular economy, and the
opportunities for us to a direct usthe environmental and the social imperatives of the
(07:02):
day by changing that very economic design. And so where we used to come
sort of at the end trying tomake good with what was left over,
this new conversation is about how dowe start from the beginning with the end
in mind and doing better for peopleand planet as well as prosperity. So
(07:27):
thinking about designing an economy that valuespeople and planet at the same time as
it does profit. So it wentfrom kind of the three hours to the
three p's if you will, okay, pretty well, And so it's a
national organization. I'm just curious isit funded privately governmentally? How does that
(07:48):
happen? All of the above,So we'll basically partner with anybody who wants
to advance the work that we're interestedin and wants to partner with us,
not just to give money to it. And sometimes that's government and sometimes that's
the private sector, but moreover andmore importantly, they want to actually support
the work and involved in the workof the organization. Any non for profit
(08:11):
likes to receive funding in any circumstance. But what we try to do is
find companies and governments that are willingto not just fund us because they think
the work that we're doing is laudableand needed, but are they prepared to
sort of lean into the work withus, which we think is more meaningful.
So we do get funded by theprivate and the public sector. We
(08:33):
also have a fabulous membership based aswell, and the membership this really spans
the value and the supply chain.We've got all kinds of diversity types of
memberships as well, So we're prettyblessed with we would say almost like an
ecocosm of the of the of theeconomy, and that really helps us kick
the tires and innovate, as ourname suggests on some of the solutions of
(08:54):
today's problems. Yeah, because theproblems that we're talking about is almost like
we're just sort of waking up tothese problems. Although we've when we look
back over the history of the lastcentury, we've just been even longer than
that. Really we've been making andmaking and consuming and consuming without any thought
(09:16):
to where it would go. Infact, this word, well, when
you're done with it, just throwit away. And of course you know
how that phrase is morphed into whatwhere is a way? There's no way
on a finite planet. Yeah,And I think you're bang on in the
sense that we almost start we havemorphed our definition of value. It's gone
(09:46):
away from what we actually value.This idea of what has value is really
changing for us. And that happenswhen you have you know, crisises,
be they climb or plastics or COVID. These jarring life incidences really help us,
(10:09):
I think, force us even totake stock of what we value.
And then when you step back andwhen you ask people, when you talk
with them about what do you value, it's it's not my things, no,
And so it's almost fundamentally starts there, and then it goes into well,
I didn't realize that what I consumehas to be made somewhere of some
(10:33):
material, and it has to beshipped across shores very far away, and
that sometimes it's even designed purposefully forme to have one use of it,
and then it goes away again intoyou know, the abyss or into the
environment, and I don't know,and I don't know if I even wish
to know, And we don't evensituate ourselves in the middle of that.
(10:56):
We are really in the middle ofthat, that ecosystem. And so what's
kind of exciting about where we've placedourselves as an organization is in fact where
people are are at and they don'trealize it, which is at the center
of the solution. Governments and industrydon't function and if it ain't for us,
(11:18):
if it weren't for us, andso if we consume differently, then
we produce differently, and then westart to solve some of these big media
issues. Yeah. Really, becausehere we are in the middle, and
we've got the manufacturers on one end, we've got the governments on the other
end. We seem to just bewaking up to this idea that both of
(11:41):
those work for us and not theother way around. If we don't buy
it or or if we say wedon't like the way you're making it or
packaging it, for instance. I'msure you've had conversations where people have I
won't purchase, say from Amazon,because of the plastic packaging, that sort
(12:07):
of speaking with your dollars, andthe government on the other end is saying
we're hearing what you say. We'regoing to bring in these sort of bylaws
and rules around waste. So thereseems to be What I'm trying to say
is there's a push in the rightdirection, but it's been a long time
(12:28):
coming. And is it. Arewe actually making progress towards making a bad
situation better? Yeah, I thinkI think to your earlier point about we're
starting to wake up, I believethat's the case. And what we've tried
to do in the education part andengagement part of our organization is to not
(12:52):
is to try to meet people wherethey're at. How we describe it,
it's not it is the collective changeof every day living that or I should
say that the small changes or adjustmentsthat we need to make. Sometimes there
are big changes, but mostly it'sa collection of the small changes to everyday
(13:16):
life that collectively are going to changeare going to shift us. And the
why we try to come at itfrom that angle is I think in this
day and age where it's just overwhelminglybad messaging, you get frozen in that.
You think, how does this applyto me? And I'm tone deaf,
I'm so tired of hearing me.Give me some examples of the bad
(13:39):
messaging, because I completely agree withyou. What's been some bad messaging?
Well, I mean, I thinkturn on the radio at any point in
time when we're talking about climate change, and you know it's there are a
lot of great things happening. Thereare a lot of good choices being made
by companies, by governments, there'sa lot of momentum, there's a ton
(14:00):
of investment and people are starting todo the right thing. But we don't
talk about that. We talk aboutyou know, we use crisis, we
use emergency, we we we talkabout these these global events, be they
climate or you know, displacement ofpeople, these very scary, very big
(14:20):
consequences of climate change that are likereal. I'm not I'm not I'm not
suggesting that's not really we shouldn't talkabout them. But if we if that's
all we talk about, and wedon't arm people with what we're doing.
That's we empower them with the artof the possible. We empower them with
how smart humans can be around innovating, around solutions, how people are taking
(14:41):
stock and are making lifestyle changes.If we don't bring that into the conversation,
I don't think the fear mongering orthe these big, heavy, scary
messaging or actually mobilizing people, Idon't think they are. I think they're
dividing us, and I think there'san opportunity for us to talk more positively
about what is being done and whatcan continue to happen and what should continue
(15:05):
to happen, but relate it tothe everyday Canadian citizen. What can you
and I do beyond driving ev thatthat is going to make the difference.
There's lots of things we can do, but we don't think about that.
And in fact, not to throwout to any stats here, but forty
five percent of the emissions that weneed to tackle to get to our target
are actually embedded in the products thatwe buy. Forty five percent almost happen.
(15:30):
Probably a lot of that is transportation, right, No, this is
actually beyond transportation or like building energyefficiency or or driving evs. This is
just products. So all of thosethree things energy efficient buildings, the cars
and automobiles, as well as theenergy choices, that's fifty five percent.
(15:52):
Products are forty five percent. Sowhen I said transportation, I mean like
transporting the products, but likely inaddition to the transportation of the pro because
they could be come from overseas.It could be coming by plane or boat
or train right quite right. Andthen on top of that, the buildings
that they manufacture the products in arethey burning natural gas, so they getting
their electricity from a coal fired generatingstation. And extracting the raw materials that
(16:21):
we need to make the products wedon't think about. They've got to come
from somewhere, whether the you know, whatever, the whether they're a metal
or a plastic or whatever, theraw materials that's needed to actually produce something.
Then the shipping, then the instore stocking, and now we're at
a point where where, you know, in a matter of twenty four hours,
(16:41):
I could have something delivered to mydoor. One I could order a
pen and get it delivered to mydoor, and the footprint of that is
almost immeasurable. I mean, thosewe don't even know what the impacts of
those are. And so it's it'ssort of this idea of of you know,
do I need it? Do Iwant it? Do I need it?
(17:04):
And I know that's a really bigadjustment for people, but that that
pause and asking yourself that question,and if I need it, can I
buy it better? So you say, by buy better, if I really
want it needed, can I buya product that maybe has less of an
impact, maybe is local, allof those things that we think about,
(17:26):
And then can I share it sosomeone else doesn't have to buy it new?
Can I share it and we candouble up on the value of that
product. And then when it's trulyat the end of life, can I
make something else out of it togive it you know newly? Long they
elongate those the life of it.So if you break it down very simple
principles and practices, you start tointerrupt and to change and to make shifts
(17:51):
in this consumption pattern that we allhave that we don't even that are you
know, just these tweaks, thesethese questions along the way that we ask
ourselves make it a ton of difference. And this is the stuff going back
to your first point about you know, what do you teach what do you
teach in schools? This is whatyou teach in schools because because I don't
think many of us realize really theimpact of just the goods and services we
(18:15):
buy in a daily basis. Youhave the consumerism, you know, Facebook
marketplace is such an easy place tofind almost anything you want. You know,
you can sell things easily, youcan purchase things easily. They're usually
within a few kilometers of your house. And it's repurposing. And this is
kind of you think of the threeRS which originally were uh, reduced what
(18:37):
were they were? They reduced reusing, like reduce your user, recycle,
yeah, yeah, And I thinkthe other RS are repair for one,
yeah, and then refuse, whichis very important one. You know.
Give you an example. Last Christmas. Uh here, I you know,
one of the worst times of theyear for consumers. And here and walking
(19:02):
through the mall shopping for my wife, and I wanted. I went into
this store and I picked up thisand I looked at it. Oh my
gosh, she doesn't need that,She's already got one. And then I
go to another store and if Ibuy this, it's just another thing.
And so I left it. Iwalked out of the mall empty handed,
and I thought, my gosh,what am I going to do? And
so we ended up instead we wewe bought a we bought a weekend at
(19:26):
a local B and B airbnb andwe had a wonderful experience. Yeah yeah,
And we walked to a restaurant becauseit was a small community and I
didn't end up having this one morething in the closet. And that's the
mentality that we need to be gettingout to the masses. Is refused.
(19:47):
It's not just three hours, it'sfive hours repair and refuse on top of
the reduced reuse recycle. Yeah yeah, I think I think there's an oppertunit
tunity, you know, maybe ininflationary times, those times now that we're
living in and where we all haveto penny pinch a little bit, and
you know, the majority of uscertainly do and so those so that presents
(20:12):
an opportunity to maybe shift a littlebit. I even heard, you know,
some statistics today about the amount thatcombined the inflationary realities combined with sort
of living at home during COVID havetaught us, have forced us how to
teach ourselves to cook again. Andthinking about you know, this opportunity to
(20:40):
create experiences. So there's a shiftin behavior that was sort of forced upon
us, but in a way,you know, it actually has a benefit
to it. So let's take thesethis time where we have to maybe think
about stretching our dollar a little bitaround, like you say, either buying
less or buying smarter for sure,and I think all of us again,
(21:00):
going back to that definition of value, you had two days with your wife
as opposed to five minutes of openinga gift. You know, there's a
good value. And you have memoriesthat you can think about that you've conjured
up together, and you've you know, contributed to local economic you know,
to your local economy. So there'sall of these offshoots and benefits. And
(21:25):
you've had two days of downtime whereyou're just thinking about yourselves and each other.
So all of these sort of humansright that we don't think about.
So and the other certain thing Iwant to point out is in a digital
age where we can get everything atour fingerprints, at our finger tips.
(21:45):
You know that's and you mentioned FacebookMarketplace. What makes me think about our
opportunity to leverage that the digitization ofthe world to share goods and services.
There's some interesting justice statistics that I'veread recently about cars and car sharing programs
that are starting to be popped up. Not just the auto share that you
(22:07):
commonly see in cities, but thereare municipalities around the world who might have
a fleet to government, local governmentsthat buy fleets of whatever the vehicle might
be, but they sit eighty percentof their life in a parking lot.
And so there are cities, andin fact there are cities in Europe that
(22:29):
are now making those cars available ina car shared program in cities all over
Europe after five PM, where thestaff of the municipality is not obviously going
to use it anymore, and whenthe public actually needs a car. And
so this digitization where they do acar sharing, the public could actually get
(22:51):
access to that car in the eveningsand the weekends when they need it and
the town staff needed during the day. And what happens is you're optimizing the
use of the vehicle and you're preventingthe production of another one. Yeah and
yeah that if you know, imagineif we each just all you know,
if two people could share one car, what that would mean in terms of
(23:15):
production A lot of students at schoolnow are big into thrifting, so they
like to go to the secondhand clothingstores and it's become quite a fashion statement
to thrift. They find all kindsof incredible things. It's become a bit
of a I think it's a realtrend, and I certainly would endorse any
(23:37):
school to put it out there thatyou know, thrifting is popular and there's
lots of good clothes to be had, and not only to purchase, but
you can donate as well. Andwith the car sharing you're talking about and
switching from consuming goods to consuming experiences, now we're starting to get to the
(23:59):
heart of the messaging that we needto get out to people when we talk
about a circular economy. Because themessaging when it started out with climate issues
was well, make sure you turnthe TV off when you're done with it,
and make sure you change your lightbulbs to LEDs, and you know,
make make sure you turn the thermostatdown and wear sweater and and it
just seemed like these are little tinythings. And then I think what happened,
(24:22):
maybe you can comment on this,is people started to think, wow,
you mean, like this global issuewas up to me and whether I
turn off my TV or not,Like, I can't. First of all,
I don't believe that what I dois going to make a difference.
And second of all, I can'tbear the weight of the world on my
shoulders, Like isn't there something biggerthan me causing more of a problem than
(24:45):
I am. So that's where Ithink the messaging really failed us. You
know, what do you think?Yeah, I think you're right. Obviously,
you know, industry and business hasa role to play here in governments,
making them accountable and progressing with regulation. That's going to do that very
thing. But at the end ofthe day, industry only responds to what
(25:11):
a consumer wants or doesn't want.They don't succeed in and of themselves.
They rely on us and so well, you think these small decisions, including
what you buy and how you buyit and who you buy it from,
that's that's not weight of the world. That's empowering your decision. That's you
taking charge. And I think Canadiansare getting pretty fatigued at feeling helpless.
(25:37):
There is you know, there's alot of connectivity between some of our mental
health and you know, thinking thedisparity of sort of hearing all these these
big, scary messaging and feel verydisengaged and not empowered to do anything about
it. That in fact, youknow that again why we are moving forward
(26:00):
with our educational programs in a waythat says you are empowered. You do
have a vote, You can makea difference. So don't think about it
as weight on the world. Thinkabout it as I actually can move into
a space to be part of asolution. I have some power here that
I haven't tapped into that I'm notacknowledging. Yes, all those other things
have to happen with government and industry, but I actually have some control over
(26:25):
the two of them in a waythat maybe I had not thought about before.
And I think that's really I thinkthat gets people excited. It's one
of the reasons we have innovation inour title as an organization, because we
need to innovate differently in every areaof the way that we live. We
(26:45):
really do, the size of ourhomes, the numbers of vehicles, what
we buy where we live. Youknow, we have to think innovatively.
And it's not about less you know, it's not about sacrifice. I hate
that word sometimes because it makes itfeel like you know, I have to
do without. That's not the case. It's about redefining value and moving into
(27:11):
that space and driving that value.That's that's really you know, connected to
who we are as human beings.So and then you know, making those
everyday little choices that go along withthat, that collected it over time are
going to make the difference. AndI think what we've seen, and it
doesn't matter the age group or thesituation. You know, people feel pretty
(27:33):
proud of themselves. They're like,oh, that wasn't so hard, Like
that's not so, that wasn't sucha big undertaking. I lived through that.
I'm okay with it. You know, we've got some examples of not
living with plastic bags, and youknow, this this incredible shift that we've
all made in relatively short period oftime. That's just an outlying example,
but you know, people kind ofcome to their grocery stores now what there
(27:55):
were usable bags, and nobody haslost the quality of life that they thought.
And I remember, you know,we were lighting our hair on fire,
thinking we will never live through this, so we need it. But
we have proven ourselves to be wiserand more effective and efficient without it.
When you know, life has goneon and even better in a better way.
(28:18):
So so I think people are whatwe're trying to do is present them
with everyday options where they can bepart of the solution, as opposed to
feel so overwhelmed and feeling so disconnectedfrom the solution saying it's over there,
the solution is over there. That'snot actually the case. I like the
whole message of I'm part of theprocess, I'm part of the solution is
(28:41):
empowering. I've done what I can. I think that's the way to approach
it, for sure, And everythingthat an individual does that's a step in
the right direction is just is onemore step. If you wanted to make
bigger steps, you partner with thingslike Circular Innovation Council, or you write
(29:03):
letters to your MP or MLA.You know, we switched off of plastic
shopping bags, and you notice thatthe sushi places aren't using styrofoam anymore.
However, you know, you lookat the grocery store and now the next
thing we got to go after isthe plastic packaging, because everything inside the
(29:23):
grocery store is wrapped in plastic,and here they go and put a paper
straw in a Starbucks cup, butthe cup still plastic. There's a certain
amount of green washing. I thinkthat's going on here. There's making us
feel like we're doing the right thing. But again it's me. I'm doing
it, which I don't mind doing. But my gosh, you guys can
stop wrapping your cucumbers individually in plasticlike that's just not necessary. The cucumber
(29:45):
example, it's always the one thatpeople pull out because everyone always scratching their
head around that. I've been aroundthis industry for about twenty years and that's
always a consistent example. So so, yeah, we haven't solved for the
cucumber is You're quite right, andI mean, this is this is how
you chip away, right, Thisis how you chip away at it.
(30:06):
You start with plastic bags, andthen it brings your awareness to the other
things that you've just talked about becauseyou've lived through the plastic bag experience.
So what else can I live without? That is that is good for the
better good, that is right forthe better good. And so we chip
away at those examples, and industryquite frankly gets brave because they too have
(30:26):
lived and prospered in these changes andare empowered, you know, they they
know that their bottom line can stillbe protected and will make these changes that
are better for everybody in the longrun. So, you know, some
of this stuff is slow moving andyou feel like you're not making n roads.
(30:47):
But I mean, we didn't havea conversation about plastics, you know
as recently as four years ago,five years ago. It's just been of
late where it's really just you know, become a global crisis and everybody's recognizing
it. It really you know,great things are having in industry in government
really hyper focused on this issue ofclassics and plusics crisis. So, you
(31:12):
know, I think and we havesometimes we forget, I forget that we
talk about industry and government like they'retheir own entity. But at the end
of the day, they're all madeup of people, yes, and so
we have to remember that we're notdealing with, you know, something that
is you know, in inanimate it'sthese are run by people. They're just
(31:36):
like us. It's a collection ofpeople that are that are you know,
working in these organizations. So wehave to stop separating ourselves from industry and
government because really, you know,it's all of us. It's just the
same way that we separate ourselves fromnature. We always think nature is over
there, but we're We're a partof nature. So, you know,
(31:57):
if we're concerned about the four industry, or if some agricultural practice, or
the way we're disposing of plastic inthe ocean, or the demise of the
coral reefs, we have to rememberthat we're also part of nature, and
as we destroy those things, we'rekind of ultimately destroying aspects of ourselves as
well. So the government is notseparate from us. They're just people.
(32:22):
Nature is not separate from us.We're still nature. These are good messages.
I like the approach, and Ioften have people say, oh,
you work in the environment or forthe environment, or my environment versus your
environment. I think it's the environment. I think we share the environment,
you know, and somebody calls mean environmentalist, Well, yeah, I'm
(32:44):
actually fighting for the environment you livein as well. Right, I doesn't
know any about the air, doesn'tknow boundaries, right, Yeah, this
is it. So it's interesting howmaybe it helps us compartmentalize, you know,
for the purposes of our jobs.But at the end of the day,
all of these organizations and entities arejust people. And I think Canadians.
I'm confident that all of Canadians aremost of us have the same values.
(33:09):
We just have to find a wayto redefine them. Well. I've
had very good experiences speaking with ourlocal MP, John Aldegg is presently representing
my writing in Autawa, and he'sattended some of our student run student organized
environment conferences. We generally hold themon April twenty second or near April twenty
second, the Earth Day, andhe's attended them on a couple of occasions,
(33:30):
and he speaks very well. He'svery open to listening to the students'
suggestions and concerns, and he hasvery thoughtful responses. I've really been quite
impressed with him, you know,politics aside. He's a nice guy and
he's very willing to listen it,you know the guy. Yeah, our
(33:52):
teachers around the country inviting these peopleinto the classroom to listen to the concerns
and give the students the opportunity torealize that they are empowered. They do
have a say. People will listento them. And I would say in
any corner whether I work in theyou know, with industry or public,
(34:13):
and I work with both, theyare very they are hungry for innovation.
Innovation is the word of the day, and that's really exciting for young people
because they're going to be our innovatorsinto the future and we need them to
be. And so that opportunity,there's tremendous appetite and opportunity for them,
(34:34):
and you know, I hope thatthat resonates this This is these are big
problems, but they also provide opportunitieswith you know, for big, interesting
solutions, and we're seeing that everyday. Every day we get calls from
folks that have come up with,you know, a new business idea,
a new product, idea new anew way to you know, engage and
(34:57):
empower and it's incredible and everything's onthe table and off the table at the
same time. So the way thatwe live, the way that we've done
business, the way that we've governed, all of that's on the table because
it needs to be. It reallyneeds to be. So it's quite fascinating
and quite invigorating. I would say, well, I think it's smart to
(35:19):
have the word innovation in the titleCircular Innovation Council, because it's innovation is
a key word in schools today aswell. We're always trying to promote students
opportunity to innovate and create, toinfluence via their imaginative creations, and then
to come up with tricky and fancyand catchy ways to grab people's attention with
(35:42):
their innovation. It's not just inschools. It's not just the traditional chapter
test unit tests. And let's moveon to the next thing. That those
days are fading into the past.Now, what we're seeing more and more
are students giving these opportunities to projectbased learning, inquiry based learning, innovative
here, here, let's learn aboutthis problem. Now, let's come up
(36:05):
with a solution for it. Imean, would students have the opportunity to
toss an email towards your organization andask questions and oh, most certainly we
love those emails. We welcome them. We encourage everybody to reach out to
us. We have members membership levelsthat are quite inexpensive for students. We
(36:27):
have events that we would open thedoors to for at no cost to students
who want to come and and andbe part of our conferences, our workshops,
our webinars, you name it.It's incredibly important that we car vote
space for them and time for them, and quite frankly, just you know,
again, given given the insatiable needfor innovation, we're going to rely
(36:52):
on them, So we need themin the room for sure. So call
out to any student, any educator, anybody in the education system who wants
to get involved in the organization.You know, our doors wide open.
You mentioned conferences. Can you justrun down some of the things that the
organization does in terms of conferences nationally? Are you visiting other countries, other
(37:14):
provinces and and what's our programs likewhat's on the what's the rubber to the
road or you know on the pavement'swhat's happening with circular innovation coming up?
And so there's a couple of thingsthat are I've mentioned. So we just
finished in June a Circular Economy Summit, which we was the first of its
kind and that we held in Torontoin June of twenty twenty three this year.
(37:37):
But we intend to move that biannually around the country. So we
will eventually come to b C inother places. I think next year we'll
be in Quebec and then we're movinginto b C. We always on a
regular basis have virtual webinars their knowledgesharing we call it the Knowledge sharing series.
(37:57):
We pick an issue, we'll bringexperts in from around the world.
That's the good thing about endless zoomcalls these days, you can't pluck people.
Are these recorded and save that wecan access them still? Yeah,
yep, And a lot of it'son our Circular Innovation and dot CAA website,
so we always record and we arcon them for post consumption. We
(38:17):
do lunch and learns we do.Of course, Circular Economy Month is our
big education campaign that we just cameoff of. That's all of October,
and there's endless resources and tools andvideos and sissle reels and all kinds of
things there. The other thing thatwe're doing right now, which you're probably
going to start hearing about soon,is pilot projects, so we are pulling
(38:42):
together the private and the public sectoraround testing market solutions and everyday problems.
And an example of that will bean interesting reuse model we're going to bring
to the City of Ottawa, wherewe have convinced a couple of the big
grocery retailers to share reasonable containers amongstthem and to move those containers around in
(39:02):
a neighborhood to allow for easy accessfor the consumer, but also to test
whether retailers could actually share containers witha section of the of the food of
the deli or the food the thedeli section, or prepackaged foods which or
(39:23):
foods that would otherwise be packaged inplastic to put them in reusables. So
if you think about kind of theway that beer, the brewers use the
same industry standard brown bottle that we'reall sort of as synonymous with beer,
they share those bottles and it getsrefilled about fifteen times. So we are
(39:44):
going to take that sort of conceptand move it over to the grocery industry
and say, hey, I'm notreally buying your container as like a consumer.
I'm buying what's in it. Idon't care what the container looks like.
So can you can you pick twoor three or four containers that you
can all share and put your sushior sho somosas, or your pizza or
your deli need or whatever the casemight be in my container. I'll take
(40:05):
it home and I'll bring it backand I'll use it. I'll get it
washed and use it again, andI can drop that same container and use
that same container in whether I goto Metro or Sovie's or Walmart or whatever
the case might be. So that'sthe first of us kind in the world
and we're going to try that inOttawa. So part of what we do
as an organization is these market tests. We're in this position where we can
(40:28):
bring the stakeholders together and again innovatoraround a solution, which is really what
we're known for. And then whenyou get the results from that, maybe
you try another city, or maybesomebody around the world picks up on the
idea and uses it somewhere else.The intention is to we're starting in a
catchment area in a small community inOttawa, and then we're going to expand
it across the city once we deemit successful and we aren out all the
(40:49):
wrinkles, and then we're going tolook to other areas within the store.
So what else can we apply thisto? What about home care? What
about beauty care? Are there otherareas in a grocery store where you can
actually share a container and introduce acontainer and circulate it in a place based
way at a community level, andwe think we can. So that's the
(41:10):
intent of scaling that or expanding itout, and you do almost want to
start promoting these businesses that are startingup where their whole business model is based
on bringing in your own container,refilling with your shampoo or grains and noodles
and passes and things that can keepright. These these little stores that are
(41:30):
coming around there, they need tobe amplified. Yeah, I think,
I think we need we need everykind of solution now as quickly as we
can scale them up. So,you know, those refillery stores are really
important because they demonstrate the art ofthe possible, But then we need to
(41:52):
solve for these large format grocers aswell. The other stores tend to be
a little bit boutique, but nonetheless, you know I I you know,
these wonderful Olive oil stores that arenow opening that are just exclusive to olive
Oil. They've got reasonable containers thatI go back and forth with all the
time. But there are some caseswhere I don't have my container, but
I still don't want to choose plastic. So that's what we're trialing in the
(42:15):
big grocery store that I can getmy chicken or I can get my pre
made salad and it'll be a reasonablecontainer and don't worry the next time I
come back, which I will becauseyou're in my grocery store, I will
bring it back with me. Withme, I will drop it there and
take another filled one. So theseare the formats that you know, eighty
percent of Canadians live in cities,so these solutions are in front of us.
(42:36):
We just need to refuse the plasticbag as we have done and have
proven ourselves able to do. Andso these are frontiering projects that are really
important because I have good impact,pardon me, but they're also demonstrative of
what can be done when we leanin a little bit and sometimes in fast
order too. Like there seems tobe a real wave of real there's momentum,
(43:00):
as you mentioned, there's momentum thisbuilding and if we can get the
young people on board, but that'sgoing to take constant discussion in classrooms,
constant opportunity to attend conferences or tojoin in on the sort of things you're
talking about. And then on topof that, do you see a future
in the next ten years or soin terms of business opportunities. There are
(43:23):
students going to come out of schooland have opportunities. Do you see viable
business opportunities in the circular economy foryoung people in so many ways, not
just business opportunities, but research opportunities, you know, product developments, design
development, public partner public private partnerships, government, new regulations, if you
(43:46):
want, you know, interested inpolicy and policy development, measuring, reporting,
you know, absolute research and datacollection one hundred percent, So in
so many different ways. And youknow, if you think about the most
exciting lucrative business models that have capturedour imagination, Amazon is a great one.
(44:10):
Facebook is another one. The socialmedia. I mean, these these
things have come on the market andexploded so quickly, and they are so
unlike anything we'd seen before them.It is such a These are grandiose examples
of innovations that have that have gonewild. But it is that thinking.
(44:30):
It is that thinking that fresh,the art of the possible, thinking that
we're going to need to get ouryou know, to make this transition to
a circular economy and deal with theclimate and the plastic and the and the
waste crisis of today. And andthere's and in fact, when I think
about the new business models, theold way of doing business is trying to
(44:52):
keep up with them. It hassurpassed them so quickly that the old way
of doing business is trying to adjustto try to stay competitive. So I
would anybody interested, you know,in sort of business and innovation. You
know, there's some really we hadan example of a startup company in Canada
(45:12):
that had presented an opportunity to treeplant using drones by way of an example
and getting too far reaching, andyou know, areas that have seen fires
where it's not safe to go,you know, by by by by humans
walking, but with drones they cango and plant trees and areas on mass.
(45:35):
And it has changed the way thatwe think about this laborious, you
know, very slow process of reforestingareas that that knee tree planting. They
can do it quickly, safely,and and you know, with with more
efficiency. So and that's a Canadianstartup company. So there are so many
(45:55):
smart innovators that I have come acrossin the short period of time. So
I have such hope. This issort of the key I think is from
our conversation, the idea that inthe classroom there has to be opportunity after
(46:15):
opportunity to innovate and create and imagineand sort of draw and picture and talk
about the future. Because we've alreadyseen very recent examples within the last fifteen
years of massive change, positive change, things that have taken over swept across
the society very rapidly because somebody somewherethought we could do it differently. You
(46:40):
know. I'll always use the exampleof how the day Elon Musk must have
walked into the boardroom and said,I think we should get rockets to land
on their feet, and everybody inthe room said, Okay, Elon,
why aren't you just settled down?No, no, I'm serious. I
think we can do it. Andof course now within years it's happening and
happening routinely. So many more thingscan happen routinely. But we need a
(47:04):
group of we need a generation ofkids coming out of school who have been
given years of opportunity to develop andcreate and imagine new and wackle things whatever
in their head, right exactly,And it's it's to this theme of living
differently, remembering what your values are. I mean, these are the kinds
(47:25):
of themes that have thread our conversationtoday right and on top of that,
thinking creatively and innovatively about how wecan be living to address some of the
problems of today and still prosper andespecially prosper so, you know, kids
don't kind of kids, students don'tget into the sort of rut of lifestyle
(47:47):
that perhaps maybe their parents and grandparentsdid. So what an exciting opportunity to
rethink and align what you really value. No one suggests that to me.
In my education, this was,you know, sort of head down,
do your work, get good grades, go to school, get your job,
(48:07):
work at that job, and don'tpull your head up. Now we're
saying the kids pull your head up, think differently, So exciting. It's
an exciting time. I'm so gladwe had this conversation because I'm just I'm
super pumped to go to school tomorrow. I feel like I want to go
back, Actually like I'm excited toget in there and just continue. I
(48:28):
mean, this is part of mymy my model of teaching anyway, but
I just am reinvigorated to really emphasizeto students and give them opportunities to think
outside the box, as if almostas I've heard somebody say, there is
no box anymore. Box would implythat there are some limitations, but really
these days there's not. So andcongratulations for you know, thinking innovatively about
(48:55):
getting it you know, presenting thekids with the years two with a different
way of thinking in a different medium. Really, it's exciting and we have
to like I said, these arevery can be very heavy times with very
heavy messaging, and we can feelvery out of sorts or very helpless.
So these conversations are really important toenergize us and to remind us that we're
(49:17):
in control here. This is nothappening to us, that we are part
of the solution of getting our wayout of it. So it's kind of
exciting. But lucky students, Iwould say in your classroom, Well,
Joanne of the Circular Innovation Council,thank you so much for giving me some
(49:39):
fire in my teaching. And Ihope that that fire spreads to a whole
lot of other teachers as they listento this conversation. Yeah, and I
welcome anyone to contact us for moreof this. I would love to continue
it. Thank you thinking of meand taking the time
Mmmm. Welcome back to another episodeof Science three sixty. This is Tim
Stevenson, your host, and onthis episode I have Joanne Saint Gotter of
the Circular Innovation Council of Canada,where we're gonna get into the conversation about
the famous three hours you know,reduce, reuse, recycle, but not
just that. There's so many morethings that we have to consider, like
(00:23):
repair, rethink, reduce, refuse, regift, readjust, reiterate, rekindle,
resell, rediscover, retire. Thispodcast is a proud member of the
Teach Better Podcast Network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow and the podcast to get
(00:44):
you there. Explore more podcasts atwww dot Teach Better Podcastnetwork dot com.
Now let's get onto the episode.There are certain things in life that you
can't get enough of. People writesongs about them. How you just can't
(01:06):
have too much money, you can'thave too much fun, you can't share
too much love. These sort ofideas exist because people thrive on good times
and good fun. And what aboutat school? What lessons can you not
get enough of? I could probablymake a lengthy list, because I've made
a career out of teaching, notso much out of a requirement laid out
in a document, but from aneed to know basis. I literally plan
(01:32):
my time in the classroom around lessonsthat I believe in my heart. That
students need to know things like futuretech trends, the future of power and
transportation, conservation, how mental wellbeing can be found in nature, that
we're a part of nature, andthat understanding the natural world enhances or desire
to improve it for the present andfor the future. In research done by
(01:56):
one of my previous guests, Mariavan Valas from episode six, two,
high school students have declared that theywant more climate science and related subjects brought
to their classes in high school,that climate anxiety is real and a truthful
conversation is required to go ahead togo head to head with the issues that
they're concerned about. And this bringsme to today's episode. My guest Joanne
(02:22):
Saint Goddard has served as the executiveDirector of Circular Innovation Council since two thousand
and one. Her expertise focuses onthe development of policies, programs, practices
that advances the circular economy and drivespositive environmental, economic, and social outcomes.
I don't think you can have toomany conversations like this one about our
(02:45):
consumeristic tendencies, our buy it,use it, toss it mentality. We
need to bring our classes a conversationabout the finite nature of our planet,
how an extractive game has wreaked havocon our natural resources, and an empowerment
of our youth with strategies to shiftaway from a linear economy and towards a
(03:07):
circular economy is key to a brightfuture. And this is what Yuenn brings
to this episode. I've already seenit where students are proud of their thrifting
of secondhand clothes. I've heard studentstalk about their concerns for a healthy planet,
so there is a growing awareness.But I'm still seeing a lot of
single use plastic, for instance,and a lot of new electronics being purchased
(03:30):
because it's the newest and the shiniest. So we're headed in the right direction,
but we're not there yet. Iwant to see students hanging on to
old phones, fixing the tear andtheir snowboarding pants, ditching the single use
plastic cups for a washable travel mug, being conscious of their carbon footprint when
asking for a five minute ride toschool, and taking ownership of their consumables.
(03:54):
Yes, this sort of conversation needsto be allowed to influence the themes
that you bring to your science class. The ideas here need to find a
home in your brain and then beallowed to find their way into conversations with
your students, to be embedded inyour lessons, and to be an area
of direct research by your students.I hope you find yourself nodding in agreement
(04:17):
as you listen to Joan, andthat you find yourself allowing your students to
be creative and imaginative and developing newways to take part in a circular economy.
So now let's get started with thisconversation with Joanne Saint Goddard of the
Circular Innovation Council of Canada, Andbe sure to check the links in the
show notes and you'll find more fromJoanne there. If we're going to solve
(04:44):
any sort of environmental crisis, anyany aspect of the environmental crisis, is
going to be through education, andit starts there and then it magnifies after
that. But people have to firstknow you know, agreed, So,
Circular Innovation Council Johann Saint Godard,why don't you tell us, first of
(05:04):
all, what is the Circular InnovationCouncil, where it's come from, and
what functional role it plays in thein the country of Canada. Well,
thanks for the question. So theCircular Innovation Council is actually a rebranded and
expanded organization that revealed itself in Juneof twenty twenty, just sort of rate
(05:30):
after, right in the middle ofthe pandemic. The pidemic really had nothing
to do with the timing of ourunveiling, but for four decades before that
timeline, we were the Recycling Councilof Ontario, a not for profit organization
that was pretty focused on end oflife management of materials, trying to direct
them back into production, you know, away from disposal, so really kind
(05:55):
of focused on waste and waste andrecycling and prevention of waste. So that
that work over time gave us apretty strong foundation for what is now the
work of the Circular Innovation Council,And as I mentioned in June of twenty
twenty, we decided to rebrand theorganization with that name for a couple of
(06:16):
reasons that I'll talk about the second, but also moved from a provincial organization
to a national one good idea.So that that really mostly because the Ontario
on our name was not in keepingwith you know, kind of where our
works were. We were finding ourselves, if not national, maybe even international,
(06:40):
sometimes internationally. So we wanted toexpand the work of the organization.
But also because there was this growingglobal conversation about the transition of the take
make waste linear typical economy into what'sknown as the circular economy, and the
opportunities for us to a direct usthe environmental and the social imperatives of the
(07:02):
day by changing that very economic design. And so where we used to come
sort of at the end trying tomake good with what was left over,
this new conversation is about how dowe start from the beginning with the end
in mind and doing better for peopleand planet as well as prosperity. So
(07:27):
thinking about designing an economy that valuespeople and planet at the same time as
it does profit. So it wentfrom kind of the three hours to the
three p's if you will, okay, pretty well, And so it's a
national organization. I'm just curious isit funded privately governmentally? How does that
(07:48):
happen? All of the above,So we'll basically partner with anybody who wants
to advance the work that we're interestedin and wants to partner with us,
not just to give money to it. And sometimes that's government and sometimes that's
the private sector, but moreover andmore importantly, they want to actually support
the work and involved in the workof the organization. Any non for profit
(08:11):
likes to receive funding in any circumstance. But what we try to do is
find companies and governments that are willingto not just fund us because they think
the work that we're doing is laudableand needed, but are they prepared to
sort of lean into the work withus, which we think is more meaningful.
So we do get funded by theprivate and the public sector. We
(08:33):
also have a fabulous membership based aswell, and the membership this really spans
the value and the supply chain.We've got all kinds of diversity types of
memberships as well, So we're prettyblessed with we would say almost like an
ecocosm of the of the of theeconomy, and that really helps us kick
the tires and innovate, as ourname suggests on some of the solutions of
(08:54):
today's problems. Yeah, because theproblems that we're talking about is almost like
we're just sort of waking up tothese problems. Although we've when we look
back over the history of the lastcentury, we've just been even longer than
that. Really we've been making andmaking and consuming and consuming without any thought
(09:16):
to where it would go. Infact, this word, well, when
you're done with it, just throwit away. And of course you know
how that phrase is morphed into whatwhere is a way? There's no way
on a finite planet. Yeah,And I think you're bang on in the
sense that we almost start we havemorphed our definition of value. It's gone
(09:46):
away from what we actually value.This idea of what has value is really
changing for us. And that happenswhen you have you know, crisises,
be they climb or plastics or COVID. These jarring life incidences really help us,
(10:09):
I think, force us even totake stock of what we value.
And then when you step back andwhen you ask people, when you talk
with them about what do you value, it's it's not my things, no,
And so it's almost fundamentally starts there, and then it goes into well,
I didn't realize that what I consumehas to be made somewhere of some
(10:33):
material, and it has to beshipped across shores very far away, and
that sometimes it's even designed purposefully forme to have one use of it,
and then it goes away again intoyou know, the abyss or into the
environment, and I don't know,and I don't know if I even wish
to know, And we don't evensituate ourselves in the middle of that.
(10:56):
We are really in the middle ofthat, that ecosystem. And so what's
kind of exciting about where we've placedourselves as an organization is in fact where
people are are at and they don'trealize it, which is at the center
of the solution. Governments and industrydon't function and if it ain't for us,
(11:18):
if it weren't for us, andso if we consume differently, then
we produce differently, and then westart to solve some of these big media
issues. Yeah. Really, becausehere we are in the middle, and
we've got the manufacturers on one end, we've got the governments on the other
end. We seem to just bewaking up to this idea that both of
(11:41):
those work for us and not theother way around. If we don't buy
it or or if we say wedon't like the way you're making it or
packaging it, for instance. I'msure you've had conversations where people have I
won't purchase, say from Amazon,because of the plastic packaging, that sort
(12:07):
of speaking with your dollars, andthe government on the other end is saying
we're hearing what you say. We'regoing to bring in these sort of bylaws
and rules around waste. So thereseems to be What I'm trying to say
is there's a push in the rightdirection, but it's been a long time
(12:28):
coming. And is it. Arewe actually making progress towards making a bad
situation better? Yeah, I thinkI think to your earlier point about we're
starting to wake up, I believethat's the case. And what we've tried
to do in the education part andengagement part of our organization is to not
(12:52):
is to try to meet people wherethey're at. How we describe it,
it's not it is the collective changeof every day living that or I should
say that the small changes or adjustmentsthat we need to make. Sometimes there
are big changes, but mostly it'sa collection of the small changes to everyday
(13:16):
life that collectively are going to changeare going to shift us. And the
why we try to come at itfrom that angle is I think in this
day and age where it's just overwhelminglybad messaging, you get frozen in that.
You think, how does this applyto me? And I'm tone deaf,
I'm so tired of hearing me.Give me some examples of the bad
(13:39):
messaging, because I completely agree withyou. What's been some bad messaging?
Well, I mean, I thinkturn on the radio at any point in
time when we're talking about climate change, and you know it's there are a
lot of great things happening. Thereare a lot of good choices being made
by companies, by governments, there'sa lot of momentum, there's a ton
(14:00):
of investment and people are starting todo the right thing. But we don't
talk about that. We talk aboutyou know, we use crisis, we
use emergency, we we we talkabout these these global events, be they
climate or you know, displacement ofpeople, these very scary, very big
(14:20):
consequences of climate change that are likereal. I'm not I'm not I'm not
suggesting that's not really we shouldn't talkabout them. But if we if that's
all we talk about, and wedon't arm people with what we're doing.
That's we empower them with the artof the possible. We empower them with
how smart humans can be around innovating, around solutions, how people are taking
(14:41):
stock and are making lifestyle changes.If we don't bring that into the conversation,
I don't think the fear mongering orthe these big, heavy, scary
messaging or actually mobilizing people, Idon't think they are. I think they're
dividing us, and I think there'san opportunity for us to talk more positively
about what is being done and whatcan continue to happen and what should continue
(15:05):
to happen, but relate it tothe everyday Canadian citizen. What can you
and I do beyond driving ev thatthat is going to make the difference.
There's lots of things we can do, but we don't think about that.
And in fact, not to throwout to any stats here, but forty
five percent of the emissions that weneed to tackle to get to our target
are actually embedded in the products thatwe buy. Forty five percent almost happen.
(15:30):
Probably a lot of that is transportation, right, No, this is
actually beyond transportation or like building energyefficiency or or driving evs. This is
just products. So all of thosethree things energy efficient buildings, the cars
and automobiles, as well as theenergy choices, that's fifty five percent.
(15:52):
Products are forty five percent. Sowhen I said transportation, I mean like
transporting the products, but likely inaddition to the transportation of the pro because
they could be come from overseas.It could be coming by plane or boat
or train right quite right. Andthen on top of that, the buildings
that they manufacture the products in arethey burning natural gas, so they getting
their electricity from a coal fired generatingstation. And extracting the raw materials that
(16:21):
we need to make the products wedon't think about. They've got to come
from somewhere, whether the you know, whatever, the whether they're a metal
or a plastic or whatever, theraw materials that's needed to actually produce something.
Then the shipping, then the instore stocking, and now we're at
a point where where, you know, in a matter of twenty four hours,
(16:41):
I could have something delivered to mydoor. One I could order a
pen and get it delivered to mydoor, and the footprint of that is
almost immeasurable. I mean, thosewe don't even know what the impacts of
those are. And so it's it'ssort of this idea of of you know,
do I need it? Do Iwant it? Do I need it?
(17:04):
And I know that's a really bigadjustment for people, but that that
pause and asking yourself that question,and if I need it, can I
buy it better? So you say, by buy better, if I really
want it needed, can I buya product that maybe has less of an
impact, maybe is local, allof those things that we think about,
(17:26):
And then can I share it sosomeone else doesn't have to buy it new?
Can I share it and we candouble up on the value of that
product. And then when it's trulyat the end of life, can I
make something else out of it togive it you know newly? Long they
elongate those the life of it.So if you break it down very simple
principles and practices, you start tointerrupt and to change and to make shifts
(17:51):
in this consumption pattern that we allhave that we don't even that are you
know, just these tweaks, thesethese questions along the way that we ask
ourselves make it a ton of difference. And this is the stuff going back
to your first point about you know, what do you teach what do you
teach in schools? This is whatyou teach in schools because because I don't
think many of us realize really theimpact of just the goods and services we
(18:15):
buy in a daily basis. Youhave the consumerism, you know, Facebook
marketplace is such an easy place tofind almost anything you want. You know,
you can sell things easily, youcan purchase things easily. They're usually
within a few kilometers of your house. And it's repurposing. And this is
kind of you think of the threeRS which originally were uh, reduced what
(18:37):
were they were? They reduced reusing, like reduce your user, recycle,
yeah, yeah, And I thinkthe other RS are repair for one,
yeah, and then refuse, whichis very important one. You know.
Give you an example. Last Christmas. Uh here, I you know,
one of the worst times of theyear for consumers. And here and walking
(19:02):
through the mall shopping for my wife, and I wanted. I went into
this store and I picked up thisand I looked at it. Oh my
gosh, she doesn't need that,She's already got one. And then I
go to another store and if Ibuy this, it's just another thing.
And so I left it. Iwalked out of the mall empty handed,
and I thought, my gosh,what am I going to do? And
so we ended up instead we wewe bought a we bought a weekend at
(19:26):
a local B and B airbnb andwe had a wonderful experience. Yeah yeah,
And we walked to a restaurant becauseit was a small community and I
didn't end up having this one morething in the closet. And that's the
mentality that we need to be gettingout to the masses. Is refused.
(19:47):
It's not just three hours, it'sfive hours repair and refuse on top of
the reduced reuse recycle. Yeah yeah, I think I think there's an oppertunit
tunity, you know, maybe ininflationary times, those times now that we're
living in and where we all haveto penny pinch a little bit, and
you know, the majority of uscertainly do and so those so that presents
(20:12):
an opportunity to maybe shift a littlebit. I even heard, you know,
some statistics today about the amount thatcombined the inflationary realities combined with sort
of living at home during COVID havetaught us, have forced us how to
teach ourselves to cook again. Andthinking about you know, this opportunity to
(20:40):
create experiences. So there's a shiftin behavior that was sort of forced upon
us, but in a way,you know, it actually has a benefit
to it. So let's take thesethis time where we have to maybe think
about stretching our dollar a little bitaround, like you say, either buying
less or buying smarter for sure,and I think all of us again,
(21:00):
going back to that definition of value, you had two days with your wife
as opposed to five minutes of openinga gift. You know, there's a
good value. And you have memoriesthat you can think about that you've conjured
up together, and you've you know, contributed to local economic you know,
to your local economy. So there'sall of these offshoots and benefits. And
(21:25):
you've had two days of downtime whereyou're just thinking about yourselves and each other.
So all of these sort of humansright that we don't think about.
So and the other certain thing Iwant to point out is in a digital
age where we can get everything atour fingerprints, at our finger tips.
(21:45):
You know that's and you mentioned FacebookMarketplace. What makes me think about our
opportunity to leverage that the digitization ofthe world to share goods and services.
There's some interesting justice statistics that I'veread recently about cars and car sharing programs
that are starting to be popped up. Not just the auto share that you
(22:07):
commonly see in cities, but thereare municipalities around the world who might have
a fleet to government, local governmentsthat buy fleets of whatever the vehicle might
be, but they sit eighty percentof their life in a parking lot.
And so there are cities, andin fact there are cities in Europe that
(22:29):
are now making those cars available ina car shared program in cities all over
Europe after five PM, where thestaff of the municipality is not obviously going
to use it anymore, and whenthe public actually needs a car. And
so this digitization where they do acar sharing, the public could actually get
(22:51):
access to that car in the eveningsand the weekends when they need it and
the town staff needed during the day. And what happens is you're optimizing the
use of the vehicle and you're preventingthe production of another one. Yeah and
yeah that if you know, imagineif we each just all you know,
if two people could share one car, what that would mean in terms of
(23:15):
production A lot of students at schoolnow are big into thrifting, so they
like to go to the secondhand clothingstores and it's become quite a fashion statement
to thrift. They find all kindsof incredible things. It's become a bit
of a I think it's a realtrend, and I certainly would endorse any
(23:37):
school to put it out there thatyou know, thrifting is popular and there's
lots of good clothes to be had, and not only to purchase, but
you can donate as well. Andwith the car sharing you're talking about and
switching from consuming goods to consuming experiences, now we're starting to get to the
(23:59):
heart of the messaging that we needto get out to people when we talk
about a circular economy. Because themessaging when it started out with climate issues
was well, make sure you turnthe TV off when you're done with it,
and make sure you change your lightbulbs to LEDs, and you know,
make make sure you turn the thermostatdown and wear sweater and and it
just seemed like these are little tinythings. And then I think what happened,
(24:22):
maybe you can comment on this,is people started to think, wow,
you mean, like this global issuewas up to me and whether I
turn off my TV or not,Like, I can't. First of all,
I don't believe that what I dois going to make a difference.
And second of all, I can'tbear the weight of the world on my
shoulders, Like isn't there something biggerthan me causing more of a problem than
(24:45):
I am. So that's where Ithink the messaging really failed us. You
know, what do you think?Yeah, I think you're right. Obviously,
you know, industry and business hasa role to play here in governments,
making them accountable and progressing with regulation. That's going to do that very
thing. But at the end ofthe day, industry only responds to what
(25:11):
a consumer wants or doesn't want.They don't succeed in and of themselves.
They rely on us and so well, you think these small decisions, including
what you buy and how you buyit and who you buy it from,
that's that's not weight of the world. That's empowering your decision. That's you
taking charge. And I think Canadiansare getting pretty fatigued at feeling helpless.
(25:37):
There is you know, there's alot of connectivity between some of our mental
health and you know, thinking thedisparity of sort of hearing all these these
big, scary messaging and feel verydisengaged and not empowered to do anything about
it. That in fact, youknow that again why we are moving forward
(26:00):
with our educational programs in a waythat says you are empowered. You do
have a vote, You can makea difference. So don't think about it
as weight on the world. Thinkabout it as I actually can move into
a space to be part of asolution. I have some power here that
I haven't tapped into that I'm notacknowledging. Yes, all those other things
have to happen with government and industry, but I actually have some control over
(26:25):
the two of them in a waythat maybe I had not thought about before.
And I think that's really I thinkthat gets people excited. It's one
of the reasons we have innovation inour title as an organization, because we
need to innovate differently in every areaof the way that we live. We
(26:45):
really do, the size of ourhomes, the numbers of vehicles, what
we buy where we live. Youknow, we have to think innovatively.
And it's not about less you know, it's not about sacrifice. I hate
that word sometimes because it makes itfeel like you know, I have to
do without. That's not the case. It's about redefining value and moving into
(27:11):
that space and driving that value.That's that's really you know, connected to
who we are as human beings.So and then you know, making those
everyday little choices that go along withthat, that collected it over time are
going to make the difference. AndI think what we've seen, and it
doesn't matter the age group or thesituation. You know, people feel pretty
(27:33):
proud of themselves. They're like,oh, that wasn't so hard, Like
that's not so, that wasn't sucha big undertaking. I lived through that.
I'm okay with it. You know, we've got some examples of not
living with plastic bags, and youknow, this this incredible shift that we've
all made in relatively short period oftime. That's just an outlying example,
but you know, people kind ofcome to their grocery stores now what there
(27:55):
were usable bags, and nobody haslost the quality of life that they thought.
And I remember, you know,we were lighting our hair on fire,
thinking we will never live through this, so we need it. But
we have proven ourselves to be wiserand more effective and efficient without it.
When you know, life has goneon and even better in a better way.
(28:18):
So so I think people are whatwe're trying to do is present them
with everyday options where they can bepart of the solution, as opposed to
feel so overwhelmed and feeling so disconnectedfrom the solution saying it's over there,
the solution is over there. That'snot actually the case. I like the
whole message of I'm part of theprocess, I'm part of the solution is
(28:41):
empowering. I've done what I can. I think that's the way to approach
it, for sure, And everythingthat an individual does that's a step in
the right direction is just is onemore step. If you wanted to make
bigger steps, you partner with thingslike Circular Innovation Council, or you write
(29:03):
letters to your MP or MLA.You know, we switched off of plastic
shopping bags, and you notice thatthe sushi places aren't using styrofoam anymore.
However, you know, you lookat the grocery store and now the next
thing we got to go after isthe plastic packaging, because everything inside the
(29:23):
grocery store is wrapped in plastic,and here they go and put a paper
straw in a Starbucks cup, butthe cup still plastic. There's a certain
amount of green washing. I thinkthat's going on here. There's making us
feel like we're doing the right thing. But again it's me. I'm doing
it, which I don't mind doing. But my gosh, you guys can
stop wrapping your cucumbers individually in plasticlike that's just not necessary. The cucumber
(29:45):
example, it's always the one thatpeople pull out because everyone always scratching their
head around that. I've been aroundthis industry for about twenty years and that's
always a consistent example. So so, yeah, we haven't solved for the
cucumber is You're quite right, andI mean, this is this is how
you chip away, right, Thisis how you chip away at it.
(30:06):
You start with plastic bags, andthen it brings your awareness to the other
things that you've just talked about becauseyou've lived through the plastic bag experience.
So what else can I live without? That is that is good for the
better good, that is right forthe better good. And so we chip
away at those examples, and industryquite frankly gets brave because they too have
(30:26):
lived and prospered in these changes andare empowered, you know, they they
know that their bottom line can stillbe protected and will make these changes that
are better for everybody in the longrun. So, you know, some
of this stuff is slow moving andyou feel like you're not making n roads.
(30:47):
But I mean, we didn't havea conversation about plastics, you know
as recently as four years ago,five years ago. It's just been of
late where it's really just you know, become a global crisis and everybody's recognizing
it. It really you know,great things are having in industry in government
really hyper focused on this issue ofclassics and plusics crisis. So, you
(31:12):
know, I think and we havesometimes we forget, I forget that we
talk about industry and government like they'retheir own entity. But at the end
of the day, they're all madeup of people, yes, and so
we have to remember that we're notdealing with, you know, something that
is you know, in inanimate it'sthese are run by people. They're just
(31:36):
like us. It's a collection ofpeople that are that are you know,
working in these organizations. So wehave to stop separating ourselves from industry and
government because really, you know,it's all of us. It's just the
same way that we separate ourselves fromnature. We always think nature is over
there, but we're We're a partof nature. So, you know,
(31:57):
if we're concerned about the four industry, or if some agricultural practice, or
the way we're disposing of plastic inthe ocean, or the demise of the
coral reefs, we have to rememberthat we're also part of nature, and
as we destroy those things, we'rekind of ultimately destroying aspects of ourselves as
well. So the government is notseparate from us. They're just people.
(32:22):
Nature is not separate from us.We're still nature. These are good messages.
I like the approach, and Ioften have people say, oh,
you work in the environment or forthe environment, or my environment versus your
environment. I think it's the environment. I think we share the environment,
you know, and somebody calls mean environmentalist, Well, yeah, I'm
(32:44):
actually fighting for the environment you livein as well. Right, I doesn't
know any about the air, doesn'tknow boundaries, right, Yeah, this
is it. So it's interesting howmaybe it helps us compartmentalize, you know,
for the purposes of our jobs.But at the end of the day,
all of these organizations and entities arejust people. And I think Canadians.
I'm confident that all of Canadians aremost of us have the same values.
(33:09):
We just have to find a wayto redefine them. Well. I've
had very good experiences speaking with ourlocal MP, John Aldegg is presently representing
my writing in Autawa, and he'sattended some of our student run student organized
environment conferences. We generally hold themon April twenty second or near April twenty
second, the Earth Day, andhe's attended them on a couple of occasions,
(33:30):
and he speaks very well. He'svery open to listening to the students'
suggestions and concerns, and he hasvery thoughtful responses. I've really been quite
impressed with him, you know,politics aside. He's a nice guy and
he's very willing to listen it,you know the guy. Yeah, our
(33:52):
teachers around the country inviting these peopleinto the classroom to listen to the concerns
and give the students the opportunity torealize that they are empowered. They do
have a say. People will listento them. And I would say in
any corner whether I work in theyou know, with industry or public,
(34:13):
and I work with both, theyare very they are hungry for innovation.
Innovation is the word of the day, and that's really exciting for young people
because they're going to be our innovatorsinto the future and we need them to
be. And so that opportunity,there's tremendous appetite and opportunity for them,
(34:34):
and you know, I hope thatthat resonates this This is these are big
problems, but they also provide opportunitieswith you know, for big, interesting
solutions, and we're seeing that everyday. Every day we get calls from
folks that have come up with,you know, a new business idea,
a new product, idea new anew way to you know, engage and
(34:57):
empower and it's incredible and everything's onthe table and off the table at the
same time. So the way thatwe live, the way that we've done
business, the way that we've governed, all of that's on the table because
it needs to be. It reallyneeds to be. So it's quite fascinating
and quite invigorating. I would say, well, I think it's smart to
(35:19):
have the word innovation in the titleCircular Innovation Council, because it's innovation is
a key word in schools today aswell. We're always trying to promote students
opportunity to innovate and create, toinfluence via their imaginative creations, and then
to come up with tricky and fancyand catchy ways to grab people's attention with
(35:42):
their innovation. It's not just inschools. It's not just the traditional chapter
test unit tests. And let's moveon to the next thing. That those
days are fading into the past.Now, what we're seeing more and more
are students giving these opportunities to projectbased learning, inquiry based learning, innovative
here, here, let's learn aboutthis problem. Now, let's come up
(36:05):
with a solution for it. Imean, would students have the opportunity to
toss an email towards your organization andask questions and oh, most certainly we
love those emails. We welcome them. We encourage everybody to reach out to
us. We have members membership levelsthat are quite inexpensive for students. We
(36:27):
have events that we would open thedoors to for at no cost to students
who want to come and and andbe part of our conferences, our workshops,
our webinars, you name it.It's incredibly important that we car vote
space for them and time for them, and quite frankly, just you know,
again, given given the insatiable needfor innovation, we're going to rely
(36:52):
on them, So we need themin the room for sure. So call
out to any student, any educator, anybody in the education system who wants
to get involved in the organization.You know, our doors wide open.
You mentioned conferences. Can you justrun down some of the things that the
organization does in terms of conferences nationally? Are you visiting other countries, other
(37:14):
provinces and and what's our programs likewhat's on the what's the rubber to the
road or you know on the pavement'swhat's happening with circular innovation coming up?
And so there's a couple of thingsthat are I've mentioned. So we just
finished in June a Circular Economy Summit, which we was the first of its
kind and that we held in Torontoin June of twenty twenty three this year.
(37:37):
But we intend to move that biannually around the country. So we
will eventually come to b C inother places. I think next year we'll
be in Quebec and then we're movinginto b C. We always on a
regular basis have virtual webinars their knowledgesharing we call it the Knowledge sharing series.
(37:57):
We pick an issue, we'll bringexperts in from around the world.
That's the good thing about endless zoomcalls these days, you can't pluck people.
Are these recorded and save that wecan access them still? Yeah,
yep, And a lot of it'son our Circular Innovation and dot CAA website,
so we always record and we arcon them for post consumption. We
(38:17):
do lunch and learns we do.Of course, Circular Economy Month is our
big education campaign that we just cameoff of. That's all of October,
and there's endless resources and tools andvideos and sissle reels and all kinds of
things there. The other thing thatwe're doing right now, which you're probably
going to start hearing about soon,is pilot projects, so we are pulling
(38:42):
together the private and the public sectoraround testing market solutions and everyday problems.
And an example of that will bean interesting reuse model we're going to bring
to the City of Ottawa, wherewe have convinced a couple of the big
grocery retailers to share reasonable containers amongstthem and to move those containers around in
(39:02):
a neighborhood to allow for easy accessfor the consumer, but also to test
whether retailers could actually share containers witha section of the of the food of
the deli or the food the thedeli section, or prepackaged foods which or
(39:23):
foods that would otherwise be packaged inplastic to put them in reusables. So
if you think about kind of theway that beer, the brewers use the
same industry standard brown bottle that we'reall sort of as synonymous with beer,
they share those bottles and it getsrefilled about fifteen times. So we are
(39:44):
going to take that sort of conceptand move it over to the grocery industry
and say, hey, I'm notreally buying your container as like a consumer.
I'm buying what's in it. Idon't care what the container looks like.
So can you can you pick twoor three or four containers that you
can all share and put your sushior sho somosas, or your pizza or
your deli need or whatever the casemight be in my container. I'll take
(40:05):
it home and I'll bring it backand I'll use it. I'll get it
washed and use it again, andI can drop that same container and use
that same container in whether I goto Metro or Sovie's or Walmart or whatever
the case might be. So that'sthe first of us kind in the world
and we're going to try that inOttawa. So part of what we do
as an organization is these market tests. We're in this position where we can
(40:28):
bring the stakeholders together and again innovatoraround a solution, which is really what
we're known for. And then whenyou get the results from that, maybe
you try another city, or maybesomebody around the world picks up on the
idea and uses it somewhere else.The intention is to we're starting in a
catchment area in a small community inOttawa, and then we're going to expand
it across the city once we deemit successful and we aren out all the
(40:49):
wrinkles, and then we're going tolook to other areas within the store.
So what else can we apply thisto? What about home care? What
about beauty care? Are there otherareas in a grocery store where you can
actually share a container and introduce acontainer and circulate it in a place based
way at a community level, andwe think we can. So that's the
(41:10):
intent of scaling that or expanding itout, and you do almost want to
start promoting these businesses that are startingup where their whole business model is based
on bringing in your own container,refilling with your shampoo or grains and noodles
and passes and things that can keepright. These these little stores that are
(41:30):
coming around there, they need tobe amplified. Yeah, I think,
I think we need we need everykind of solution now as quickly as we
can scale them up. So,you know, those refillery stores are really
important because they demonstrate the art ofthe possible, But then we need to
(41:52):
solve for these large format grocers aswell. The other stores tend to be
a little bit boutique, but nonetheless, you know I I you know,
these wonderful Olive oil stores that arenow opening that are just exclusive to olive
Oil. They've got reasonable containers thatI go back and forth with all the
time. But there are some caseswhere I don't have my container, but
I still don't want to choose plastic. So that's what we're trialing in the
(42:15):
big grocery store that I can getmy chicken or I can get my pre
made salad and it'll be a reasonablecontainer and don't worry the next time I
come back, which I will becauseyou're in my grocery store, I will
bring it back with me. Withme, I will drop it there and
take another filled one. So theseare the formats that you know, eighty
percent of Canadians live in cities,so these solutions are in front of us.
(42:36):
We just need to refuse the plasticbag as we have done and have
proven ourselves able to do. Andso these are frontiering projects that are really
important because I have good impact,pardon me, but they're also demonstrative of
what can be done when we leanin a little bit and sometimes in fast
order too. Like there seems tobe a real wave of real there's momentum,
(43:00):
as you mentioned, there's momentum thisbuilding and if we can get the
young people on board, but that'sgoing to take constant discussion in classrooms,
constant opportunity to attend conferences or tojoin in on the sort of things you're
talking about. And then on topof that, do you see a future
in the next ten years or soin terms of business opportunities. There are
(43:23):
students going to come out of schooland have opportunities. Do you see viable
business opportunities in the circular economy foryoung people in so many ways, not
just business opportunities, but research opportunities, you know, product developments, design
development, public partner public private partnerships, government, new regulations, if you
(43:46):
want, you know, interested inpolicy and policy development, measuring, reporting,
you know, absolute research and datacollection one hundred percent, So in
so many different ways. And youknow, if you think about the most
exciting lucrative business models that have capturedour imagination, Amazon is a great one.
(44:10):
Facebook is another one. The socialmedia. I mean, these these
things have come on the market andexploded so quickly, and they are so
unlike anything we'd seen before them.It is such a These are grandiose examples
of innovations that have that have gonewild. But it is that thinking.
(44:30):
It is that thinking that fresh,the art of the possible, thinking that
we're going to need to get ouryou know, to make this transition to
a circular economy and deal with theclimate and the plastic and the and the
waste crisis of today. And andthere's and in fact, when I think
about the new business models, theold way of doing business is trying to
(44:52):
keep up with them. It hassurpassed them so quickly that the old way
of doing business is trying to adjustto try to stay competitive. So I
would anybody interested, you know,in sort of business and innovation. You
know, there's some really we hadan example of a startup company in Canada
(45:12):
that had presented an opportunity to treeplant using drones by way of an example
and getting too far reaching, andyou know, areas that have seen fires
where it's not safe to go,you know, by by by by humans
walking, but with drones they cango and plant trees and areas on mass.
(45:35):
And it has changed the way thatwe think about this laborious, you
know, very slow process of reforestingareas that that knee tree planting. They
can do it quickly, safely,and and you know, with with more
efficiency. So and that's a Canadianstartup company. So there are so many
(45:55):
smart innovators that I have come acrossin the short period of time. So
I have such hope. This issort of the key I think is from
our conversation, the idea that inthe classroom there has to be opportunity after
(46:15):
opportunity to innovate and create and imagineand sort of draw and picture and talk
about the future. Because we've alreadyseen very recent examples within the last fifteen
years of massive change, positive change, things that have taken over swept across
the society very rapidly because somebody somewherethought we could do it differently. You
(46:40):
know. I'll always use the exampleof how the day Elon Musk must have
walked into the boardroom and said,I think we should get rockets to land
on their feet, and everybody inthe room said, Okay, Elon,
why aren't you just settled down?No, no, I'm serious. I
think we can do it. Andof course now within years it's happening and
happening routinely. So many more thingscan happen routinely. But we need a
(47:04):
group of we need a generation ofkids coming out of school who have been
given years of opportunity to develop andcreate and imagine new and wackle things whatever
in their head, right exactly,And it's it's to this theme of living
differently, remembering what your values are. I mean, these are the kinds
(47:25):
of themes that have thread our conversationtoday right and on top of that,
thinking creatively and innovatively about how wecan be living to address some of the
problems of today and still prosper andespecially prosper so, you know, kids
don't kind of kids, students don'tget into the sort of rut of lifestyle
(47:47):
that perhaps maybe their parents and grandparentsdid. So what an exciting opportunity to
rethink and align what you really value. No one suggests that to me.
In my education, this was,you know, sort of head down,
do your work, get good grades, go to school, get your job,
(48:07):
work at that job, and don'tpull your head up. Now we're
saying the kids pull your head up, think differently, So exciting. It's
an exciting time. I'm so gladwe had this conversation because I'm just I'm
super pumped to go to school tomorrow. I feel like I want to go
back, Actually like I'm excited toget in there and just continue. I
(48:28):
mean, this is part of mymy my model of teaching anyway, but
I just am reinvigorated to really emphasizeto students and give them opportunities to think
outside the box, as if almostas I've heard somebody say, there is
no box anymore. Box would implythat there are some limitations, but really
these days there's not. So andcongratulations for you know, thinking innovatively about
(48:55):
getting it you know, presenting thekids with the years two with a different
way of thinking in a different medium. Really, it's exciting and we have
to like I said, these arevery can be very heavy times with very
heavy messaging, and we can feelvery out of sorts or very helpless.
So these conversations are really important toenergize us and to remind us that we're
(49:17):
in control here. This is nothappening to us, that we are part
of the solution of getting our wayout of it. So it's kind of
exciting. But lucky students, Iwould say in your classroom, Well,
Joanne of the Circular Innovation Council,thank you so much for giving me some
(49:39):
fire in my teaching. And Ihope that that fire spreads to a whole
lot of other teachers as they listento this conversation. Yeah, and I
welcome anyone to contact us for moreof this. I would love to continue
it. Thank you thinking of meand taking the time
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