Ep. 88 - The Nature of Things with Dr. Sarika Cullis-Suzuki

What an exhilarating experience hosting Dr. Sarika Cullis-Suzuki, the host of The Nature of Things, the world's longest-running science show for over 60 years!

A cornerstone in science communication, it's now entering a new era on the CBC Gem app, offering modern content to enhance your science lessons. Make sure to explore the show for a fresh perspective that can invigorate your science curriculum.

Sarika, a passionate science communicator and planet advocate, stresses the vital role of educators, emphasizing our impact on climate awareness. Together, we affirm that education is paramount, but action starts today.

Infuse knowledge, hope, and action into your science classes, drawing inspiration from Sarika's infectious energy. This episode will reignite your excitement for the classroom, fueling your dedication to teaching science.

Tune in and let's collectively drive change in science education!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
So anyway, so we made thisfilm and I was nervous about showing it
to young people. And when Idid to teenagers, they said they weren't
like, oh, this is aperson, They're like, thank you,
because I need to know, Likewe all know, the world is screwed
up, but I want to knowwhat I can do right. And I
think that we're scared to engage withthem because we don't want to freak them

(00:22):
out. Well, guess what,they're already freaked out. We need to
help them. So I think it'sabsolutely important integral in your role to arm
them with the information that will allowthem to act. Welcome back to another
episode of Science three sixty. Thisis Tim Stevenson, your host, and

(00:51):
on this episode I am joined bySirika Kuma Suzuki, the host of the
Nature of Things. However, aftertalking with her, I think I'm going
to try to recruit her to bea biology teacher in my school. Her
classes would be amazing and the studentswould love her to This podcast is a

(01:14):
proud member of the Teach Better podcastnetwork Better Today, Better Tomorrow and a
podcast to get you there. Exploremore podcasts at www dot Teach Beetter Podcastnetwork
dot Com. Now let's get ontothe episode. Today's conversation is a journey
into the transformative power of education andthe profound impact it can have on our

(01:38):
understanding of the world. I'm thrilledto bring you an insightful interview with remarkable
Serriki Cullis Suzuki. She's the latesthost of the Nature of Things, the
longest running science show going back tonineteen sixty. In this episode, we'll
step back in time with Sirika toexplore her high school experience, diving into
the classes that ignited her passion andsurprisingly, it wasn't a science class.

(02:04):
It was a creative writing class thathad the greatest impact. And from there
we'll venture beyond the classroom walls andhear about the lessons she learned in nature
that sparked her deep love of theocean, ultimately leading to a PhD degree
in marine biology. We'll delve intothe delicate balance of educating on climate change
and how it can instill hope andmotivate action and address the very real issue

(02:28):
of climate anxiety among the students,and about midway, Sirika turns the mic
on me and asks me what gotme into teaching, and I explain how
the reason I got into education isnot the same as the reason for the
way I now approach education. Andof course we couldn't overlook the incredible influence

(02:49):
of Syrika's father, the renowned DavidSuzuki. We'll explore how his work has
shaped her journey and discover the elementsthat make his contributions so impactful. Syrika
shares her thoughts on the importance offostering a sense of wonder and education,
and the impact of passionate scientists likeher father who love to share their research.

(03:10):
So buckle up for a thought provokingconversation that explores the intersection of education,
of nature and advacacy. Stay withus as we explore the stories of
education and the science lessons that havethe power to shape our world. And
without further ado, let's dive intothis captivating episode with Syrika Kulis Suzuki.

(03:36):
Enter into the conversation and people justsort of eavesdrop and be the fly on
the wall for a little while.And I particularly like conversational kind of recordings.
I'm not really an interviewer asking youquestions, but we can kind of
discuss these scientific issues all in thename of just making science education more exciting

(03:57):
and relevant and meaningful and some thatstudents can emotionally connect with. So yeah,
well that's so important so many people. And I'm sure you're an educator,
so you know, but a lotof students they can either be turned
on or turned off depending on whotheir teacher is. So you're doing very
important work. Well, that wouldbe a great place to start. Maybe,

(04:19):
Like what I'm really fascinated off wheneverI speak with people is what was
their own educational journey in terms ofeven going right back to high school?
What did you love about high school? Did you love science, did you
not love science? What was itthat really kind of got you excited about
learning science? Yeah, well that'san interesting question. I mean, I

(04:40):
think I was lucky enough to havegrown up on the West coast of Canada,
and my parents were really into provincialparks and in the summertime, they
really prioritized taking us to provincial parksand camping and swimming and fishing, and
so a lot of my education camefrom those summers together. And I spent

(05:00):
a ton of time in the sea, in the ocean, and that was
really what I fell in love with. But when I went to high school,
there wasn't really any courses in marinebiology at that time, which was
fine. I did have one biologyclass, but unfortunately it was very much
memorized, memorized, memorize, andnot the kind of like discovery and wonder

(05:23):
that is so inherent in biology andscience. And so I know a lot
of my friends were turned off byit. My favorite classes in high school
were actually writing creative writing English,because I had the most incredible teacher and
he just was so inspiring and everybodyjust loved being in his class. And

(05:46):
then I took a year off afterhigh school and I went to Australia,
and I remembered what I really lovedand I decided at that point to go
back into marine biology. And sofor me, it wasn't really my high
school experiences that brought me there.It was more my own personal experience growing
up by the sea. Yeah.And then from there, so I did

(06:09):
my undergrad and I took marine biologyand I was here that I learned to
scuba dive and do my first underwaterexperiments. And it was such a thrilling
time. I was meeting all thesenew species and swimming with them and researching
them, and as soon as itfinished, I at the same month my
undergrad ended, I started a master'sprogram because I was like, I couldn't

(06:30):
get enough of it, and Istarted in fishery science at UBC and this
is where things changed for me.This is when I started learning about all
the things that were affecting our oceansbecause of us of humans, all the
different stressors that were going on,and it was really intense. I was
doing a study on the effects offishing and the high seas, like a

(06:55):
global perspective, and the results werejust undeniable, and I ended up going
to the UN and presenting my resultsand it was a great experience for me,
but it was really kind of depressing, and I knew that I loved
marine biology and I wanted to continue, and so I went straight into my
PhD. But I also realized thatI had to go back into the water

(07:18):
to be able to get that inspirationagain. And so for my PhD,
I looked at a singing fish offthe coast of VC and how boat noise
was impacting them. Yeah, andthat was really neat because I could do
that on Quadra Island and this fishcalled the plane fin midshipmen. The males,
the alpha males will vocalize so loudthat if you walk down to the

(07:41):
sea's edge at night in the summertime, you can actually hear their voices resonating
out of the ocean and into theair. It's the most unbelievable set.
They are a fish. So there'rea fish, so they don't have lungs
like a humpback. You can hear, how does a fish push air across
vocal cords or yeah, yeah,exactly. So they have a swim bladder.
Fish have swim bladders, and theyhave these muscles, these bright red

(08:05):
muscles called sonic muscles, that aresitting on top of it. And when
they vibrate, it makes like adrumming effect, and they open their mouths
and it comes out and it's reallyloud, kind of like a bell,
kind of amplifying the sound, Ithink, so exactly. And the sound
that they're singing to get the femalesto come and mate with them is like

(08:30):
and it goes on and on forhours. It's almost like a meditative sound,
really beautiful. Yeah, And they'reon the coast. They're on the
coast right here in British Columbia.That's right from Alaska all the way down
to Mexico. Actually you can findthem, and I have no idea,
and it's so classic, you know, I'd been around the coast my whole

(08:54):
life, never knew about this fish, And now that I know about them
and hear them, I hear themall the time. And I must have
been associating that sound with something anthropogeniclike a generator or a twin on or
you know, like you just don'tthink that that is a small fish making
that much noise. And there'd probablybe several of them, like a big

(09:15):
school of them. Yeah, yeah, exactly, similar sound. Exactly.
Yeah. I've been on the coasta lot too, do We have a
lot of kayaking adventures, and I'venever noticed that, but I'm going to
listen for it for sure. Yeah. I mean they're not on every beach.
The substrate has to be right forthem to want to make their nests
there. But certainly, now thatI know about them, yeah, you'll
probably hear them. Well, it'slike these experiences though, this is isn't

(09:39):
this the best way to learn?You coupled the experience with the being outdoors.
You weren't learning your most exciting thingswhen you're in the classroom, but
when you're sort of on the shore, when you're in the parks, you're
outdoors learning experientially. That's such animportant way to learn. And I'm seeing
more are more in schools and emphasison getting your students outside to read.

(10:05):
Yeah, like taking on nature walksjust to be outside in the green.
Yeah, it's something you've sort ofthought a lot about learning outdoors. I
think having experiences outside, making memoriesin that way are so much more cementing
than trying to memorize something from abook or from a screen. And we

(10:28):
know that how the brain works,how we're getting information today doesn't correlate with
how we remember things, right,And so you can spend all day online
researching, but it's not necessarily sticking. Whereas if you're outside and you see
a whale or meet a fish andyou make some observations, those memories will
probably be imprinted in your brain farmore strongly than something you just happen to

(10:54):
google for a couple of seconds.Right, And so I think absolutely there
is something to be said about gettingoutside, get fresh air, getting that
experience, but also just practically speaking, it's better for your brain in terms
of how we remember things. I'vetaken my grade nine science class outside a
lot, sometimes for a reason,and sometimes, like when I say a

(11:16):
reason, like sometimes for a scientificreason. There's a lesson I've got in
mind, sometimes just to go fora walk. It seems that they would
benefit from just some outdoor time,and so we'll walk around. We have
a large campus behind the school,and I have the students right about it
one time. But one boy,he's a good guy. Maybe a bit
of a tough nut to crack,but he's really a good guy. And

(11:37):
I read what he wrote, andI was really surprised when he said,
I really like our nature walks becauseit just makes me feel better. It
wasn't anything that I taught him.He didn't remember what I taught him about
the red alder or the English ivybeing and invasive species. That didn't matter
to him. It just made himfeel good. And I think there's some

(11:58):
great value in just that it doesn'thave to necessarily be a science lesson.
Right, That is so true?Yeah, I mean, I think feeling
good is probably the number one that'sthe foundation upon which we can build,
right, so you're doing the mostimportant thing is giving them the foundation,
getting them back into their bodies,reconnecting with the land, themselves, each

(12:18):
other, and we are not gettingthat in classrooms day after day, sitting
apart from each other. Yeah,like less than number one And just in
this conversation is teachers, get getyour students outside, just for a walk
even. But then once you're outthere, learn things like, for instance,
I'll go into the forest and teachthem things that I've learned. But

(12:41):
it's interesting that mostly through things likewhat you're doing, like your program.
The nature of things now, thathas been a part of my lessons over
the years. We've had a seriesof videotapes. You know, do you
member of the old videotapes, Yeah, there would be David Suzuki the Nature
Things. There's one I showed allthe time called gene Therapy, and it

(13:07):
was an episode on using oh Avirus virus viral injections to insert genetic code
to deal with genetic diseases. Thisis back in the nineties. It must
have been really cutting edge research atthe time. But these days you can

(13:28):
click on so many good bits ofmaterial to learn things. As a teacher,
so I mentioned the nature things.Why don't you just tell us a
little bit about this program that you'rea part of now And and I'm kind
of curious how will teachers use itas a way because and as I say,

(13:50):
as I asked you this question,I'm kind of stumbling over my own
words. But think of it thisway. I think of these things like
a resource for me. First,I first want to learn things that I
can then bring to my students toget them excited about learning these things,
I personally have to be empowered newknowledge, which I can get from something

(14:11):
like what you're doing. Well,that's good. I'm glad that you can
become empowered by these shows. Imean, I think what you said was
really important to recognize is nowadays there'sso much information at your fingertips. It's
almost like, holy cow, there'swhere do I even start, right,
And I think, I mean,obviously I'm biased because I work for the
nature of things, but I thinkthe nature of Things is different because it's

(14:35):
kind of stood the test of timeand hopefully it will continue. But it's
been on for over sixty years,Incritible, So that is the longest running
science show, right, I mean, and that speaks to its consistency.
Obviously, it speaks to the viewers, and it's built up trust and history
that I think we never want tolose, right because people understand that it's

(15:00):
evidence based. And when we speakabout evidence based, obviously it's science,
but it's also indigenous knowledge. It'sany way that you're getting evidence, right,
And I think that we're trying toshow all these different perspectives, not
just to say, oh, scienceis so great, look at science.
It's like, this is what scienceis doing, and we have to remember
that we're involved in this. Wehave to understand it. We have to

(15:22):
know if this is what we wantto do, right, Like, it's
very important to understand the science that'sgoing on in our world because it affects
every day of our lives. Sofor me, of course, this show
is about science, about the environment, absolutely, but it's also about our
social responsibility as people in a changingworld. So hopefully that's what resonates with

(15:45):
people. And while the face thefaces of the nature of things might be
changing slightly. So David Suzuki hasnow officially stepped down. He's retired.
He's retired. I'll put that inair quotes because he's always working, but
myself and Anthony Morgan, my fantasticco host, are now stepping into this
role, so the faces will bechanging, but I'm hoping that those principles

(16:07):
of what make the nature of thingsso profound and important will continue well.
And what I hear you saying islike, there's science has always had this
reputation, and I feel, anywaysin my interpretation as kind of this know
it all subject. We hold scienceup here when you know, I know
most people don't understand the science,but just trust me, I'm a scientist,

(16:30):
that kind of thing. And yetwhat you're saying is, no,
we need to have a level ofhumility and recognition that at a personal level
we are a scientific organism. Welive in a world is based on the
elements of the periodic table, theforces of physics. We are kind of

(16:51):
we succumb to those things. Wehave no choice. The ocean's tide will
rise and fall whether we understand itor not, or whether we want it
to or not. So why don'twe just understand it? Why don't we
just sort of And then from thatunderstanding grows the level of appreciation that we
can aw Yeah, and not onlythat. But science often works in silos
or in a controlled setting in alab, and as we know, the

(17:15):
world doesn't work like that. Andso I think that's where a big danger
can come is when we say,this is what's going to happen in the
real world, because this is whatI worked on in my tiny little lab
in microcosm, and now let's extrapolit. Let's spray it out into the
world, or let's throw it intothe ocean, or we'll shoot it up
into space. But that can neverbe tested until it's out there. And

(17:37):
so it's so important to understand thescience but also take a step back and
say, okay, but what's goingto happen in the real world, and
are the potential consequence is really worththat gamble? So yeah, it's taking
into account all these things. Scienceis important, it's useful, but it
can also be dangerous and we needto understand it. Yeah, Like,
here's a neat idea. Why don'twe well, people like to eat salmon.

(18:00):
Oh, here's a great idea.What we should do is we'll build
these kind of like ns and we'llput salmon in them and we'll just harvest
them, almost like a farm.What a great idea, and yet here
we're seeing what speak to the coasthere. You're an ocean scientist, what
do you see happening with salmon farmingand the effect is having on our oceans?

(18:22):
Well, yeah, I mean,we know there are all sorts of
problems associated with salmon farms. Andif you put them in the ocean,
obviously you know you have a tonof the one animal in a net.
And yes, it's open nets,so things flush in and out. There
is no separation from the pen orthe net and the outside, and all
the detritus, all the feces,all the things that you're feeding them,

(18:45):
chemicals that you're putting into that net, they will all flesh out and downstream
and hit other animals, including wildsalmon that happen to be swimming past.
And the lice, the sea liceassociated with these salmon. It's like a
breeding zone. They call them fishlots because they're really like factory farms.
But in the ocean, the licethen infests the other wild salmon that are

(19:11):
going by and kills them. Andso we have seen a huge decline in
wild salmon up and down this coast, and the tragedy is we know that
that was going to happen because ithappened in other places like Norway when they
did farm salmon farming, and sothese are the things that you know,
when industry is involved, it becomeskind of problematic because there's money associated with

(19:32):
it. However, we've had somegood news because the indigenous people of this
coast have said, we are notgoing to stand for this anymore. Get
the salmon farms out. Thank godthey did that, and now some of
the salmon farms have been phased outand we are already seeing a change.
We are seeing more salmon coming through, more other animals as well, proliferating,

(19:53):
and so we know that the problemscan be reversed. You know,
in one of my trips we wentpast the salmon farm. One of them
was just on the entrance to DesolationSound and another one was in the Broughton
Archipelago. And we've been back toboth those those locations and in both instances

(20:15):
the farm wasn't there when we cameback. So it must be that what
you're saying is that that's right,they are in fact removing them still exist,
and you know, the oceans forme is such an important part of
what I teach in chemistry. Forexample, I'll teach a Grade twelve chemistry
course, and you know, oneof the units in a Grade twelve chemistry

(20:37):
course is acids and bases. Andlet's learn about how the hydronium ion and
the concentration is related to a pHAnd we can just some math calculations and
things of that nature. But really, what is the connection to acids in
my life? Okay? Well,you could say, well I did that
experiment with vinegar and baking soda.Wow, Okay, what really is the

(21:00):
connection? And to me, thegreatest connection in the world today that every
student should know about in a chemistryclass is ocean acidification and the connection between
the exhaust of carbon dioxide being absorbedby the oceans and this this I on,
this disc being formed and lowering thepH. I know, the ocean
certification falls into your wheelhouse. Whatwhat can we do, though, Like,

(21:26):
what is the problem? First ofall, if you in your in
your understanding, and then what canwe do about it? Because my gosh,
we're are we ever going to stopburning fossil fuels? I just I
just don't know. We have to, I mean, that's not a question
I think it's it's very clear thatwe have to. But that's sad.
That's sad that this is the thekind of example that you can show to

(21:48):
your students as a real life Ohthis is a chemistry test for acids and
basis I mean, right, butokay, it is sad, but I
try to do to raise an awareness. No, I mean, that's it's
fantastic, it's a great example.I just I really feel for this generation
who hears words all the time likeocean acidification, the anthroposy terms that we

(22:11):
didn't have when we grew up,and it's it's a different world. And
I mean, yes, they haveto learn about these things, but I
just find it a bummer that,yeah, it's just because we'd screwed up
so bad. But yeah, Imean the acidification thing is quite freaky because
I don't know if you're a scubadiver, but you can actually see see

(22:37):
it with your own eyes if yougo diving in any type of coral reef.
Most of them, I mean it'slike ninety percent of being affected,
and that means they're basically bleached outand so it looks like white structures for
as far as you can see inmany places, places like the Great Barrier
reef in Australia that is being decimated. But I'll say that, as terrifying

(23:02):
as it is, scientists are nowsaying reefs can recover given the chance,
given the right water conditions, fasterthan we were expecting. So this is
always the thing I find with likethese terrifying scenarios is yes, they are
absolutely scary, and these need tokind of kickstart us into action. But

(23:22):
don't lose hope in the sense thatthere is nothing that can be done because
we don't know what is going tohappen, and we don't know how nature
will respond. It's quite tough,and if we allow it the chance to
recover, maybe it will. SoI don't want the students to feel totally
hopeless. No, oh my gosh, Every lesson has to end with an

(23:44):
element of hope, hope in action, because the action is really the hope.
Right. Oh, that's such agood point. Hope and action.
Yeah, we'll take some We'll takea solution of sodium carbonate and some calcium
chloride and we mix them together.It precipitates calcium carbonate. We'll filter that
out, allowed to dry overnight andthen I'll take a little bottle of dilute

(24:10):
hydrochloric acid and just put it onand it reacts, right, And there's
this reaction between the calcium carbonate,which is really the building structure of corals
and in fact all shell life,isn't it. And then there was something
about scallops on the BC coast thatthey're seeing evidence that the shells are having
a hard time forming. Yeah,because it is yeah, I know,

(24:33):
yeah, but at the same time, like not surprising, right if organisms
have adapted for a certain pH acertain temperature, and now these things are
being totally skewed. Yeah, it'sgoing to be hard to adapt. But
how do we like this? We'regoing to protect thirty percent of the oceans
by twenty thirty. This thirty inthirty is that what I think? That's

(24:55):
the there's a campaign. Yeah,thirty by thirty, fifty by fifty.
Yeah, very neat See it's alwayssome point in the future. I read
song on your website about bold actionis a time for bold moves, and
we're just kind of scared of boldmoves. And I almost feel like even

(25:17):
in schools, teachers are afraid ofmaking bold statements, like really the oceans
are acidifying, we need to dosomething about this. Or climate change,
well, you know what, itcould be a cycle. Maybe it's the
sun. They don't, you know, they although climate change is an aspect
of the curriculum, now there's eithera lack of full understanding or an element

(25:40):
of well, I'd better be carefulof what I say in case somebody's father
works in the oil industry. Reallyyeah, oh, I'm really surprised to
hear that. I thought that iscompletely just accepted by educators now and taught
in that way. I mean,it isn't in my classroom. I think

(26:00):
there's still an element now, there'sa shift going on. But I just
four years ago I was at theconference in Saskatchewan and I was actually doing
a presentation on this very same topic, and some of the teachers who were
in my seminar said, you knowwhat, if I tried this lesson and
Mike and they're teaching Saskatchewan, ifI tried this lesson in my classroom,

(26:22):
I'd have sony parents knocking on mydoor telling me you can't be doing that,
you can't be teaching that. Sonow what about the students though?
Are the students asking for more,are they, because I bet you a
lot of the students already know abunch of this stuff. Oh yeah,
there's a lot of desire among studentsthere. I did a podcast episode with

(26:45):
a super intelligent lady in Toronto,Maria van Vallas, who did this whole
research on climate anxiety among teenagers,and one of her findings was that students
are asking for more. We wantto understand better, we want the facts,
we want the action, the actionablesteps. So, yeah, the

(27:07):
students are moving in the right direction. Parents are kind of lagging behind in
that way a little bit. Yeah, yeah, I can see that absolutely.
But I feel like your commitment isto your students, and so you're
teaching for them, right it istheir future. I did a film that
aired in February. I wrote itand we filmed it, and it was

(27:30):
all about climate change. And itwas right after we'd had that unbelievable heat
wave in BC. As you'll recall, over six hundred people were killed.
We set the temperature records in Canadafor three days. I've never had a
school day because of a hot temperatures. I've never seen that before. Yeah,

(27:52):
yeah, exactly. Yeah, andthen Litton burned to the ground.
And then after that, as youknow, we had those unreal atmospheric rivers.
Was the first time I had heardthat term before. It washed out
highways right and changed across the rivers, and so at that point I was
thinking, like, you're in BCtoo. All we were talking about in
twenty twenty one was climate change everybody, and this was a uniting thing that

(28:17):
was happening. And so when Iwrote this film, it really was about
how we're actually going to confront climatechange. And I was so nervous because
the last thing I wanted to dowas make a film about climate change.
That would be depressing, because howis that helping anybody? But at the
same time, I had no ideawhat were going to discover and we we

(28:37):
did this whole film and at thevery end we meet this group, this
community at Kannakabar, which is rightnext to Lytton, and we talked to
them about what they've done, andthey have single handedly. They're just a
small indigenous community of a couple hundredpeople, they have no help from the
government BC or federal and on theirown they have complete it completely changed their

(29:02):
their zone into they create their ownfood they create their own energy, they
have their own fresh water, Theyhave all this scientific infrastructure and data and
collection so they can know how fastthe winds are ripping, like how the
temperatures, all of this, andit's like, oh my god. They
are not waiting for anybody. They'redoing it. And to me, that

(29:22):
was the most inspiring thing that Icould have seen, because we make every
excuse imaginable. You know, wedon't have the money, we don't have,
and it's like they're not waiting foranybody, and so they're so far
advanced compared to any other town,Like think about Vancouver, how much money
Vancouver has and are they ready?You know? Like so anyway, so

(29:45):
we made this film and I wasnervous about showing it to young people.
And when I did to teenagers,they said they weren't like, oh,
this is a person, They're like, thank you, because I need to
know, like we all, ohthe world is screwed up, but I
want to know what I can doright. And I think that we're scared
to engage with them because we don'twant to freak them out. Well guess

(30:07):
what, they're already freaked out.We need to help them. So I
think it's absolutely important integral in yourrole to arm them with the information that
will allow them to act. Asan example, which any teacher listening to
this you can do this too.Like I went down to White Rock,
which is near where I live,and I scooped water out of the ocean,

(30:33):
took it back to the lab.We had to do a titration anyway,
so I thought, well, let'sdo a salinity titration on ocean water.
Rather than making up my own salinitysolution, I'll just take it from
the ocean. Awesome. Yeah,it was really cool because what ended up
happening was they found that the saltconcentration was around two point five percent.

(30:53):
So I said, we'll do alittle research and what is the global average?
And the average around three point fivepercent. So we thought, well
do we making it? Should weredo our titration? And no, we
didn't make an area. It wastwo point five two point seven percent.
But then you look into it andyou find out that the Pacific Northwest or

(31:14):
really what on an ocean level youwould know this. I'm sure we live
on the west coast of Canada,but we live on the east side of
the Pacific Ocean. So the east, the northeastern Pacific Ocean is lower in
salt concentration because of our precipitation andall the fresh waters running out of the
mountains to the ocean, and soour result was not out of line.

(31:38):
It was actually in line. ButI said to the students, next time
you go to White Rock and youall go there in the summertime, you
all walk along the boardwalk, youall get an ice cream cone. You'll
look at that water differently now andyou'll say, we actually know about this
water. I thought that was kindof a cool thing to do. Good
for you, and I bet theywill remember that. That's awesome. You

(31:59):
know what we did recently, we'redoing a film on plastics, microplastics,
and so we went out in theboat around Souk off Vancouver Island and we
took some ocean water. What they'refinding is microplastics are now in every level
of ocean, like it's just ubiquitousaround the world. We're inhaling microplastics daily,

(32:21):
right, It's everywhere. And soafterwards we were looking at that,
and then we stuck this little microscope. You can just plug it straight into
your computer. It's only like fortydollars. We stuck it onto our clothes
and you can see the different fibersand just like peeling off of your clothing.
It's unbelievable. But I met afourteen year old guy who is a

(32:44):
citizen scientist who's been studying microplastics forfour years and he just goes down to
his local beach every year and hetakes a sample of the sand and then
he sends it off to a lab. And you know, I mean,
young people are so amazing. Theydo whatever they want, They have energy,
you know, they're so smart,they have all these insights, and

(33:06):
it was just really neat to watchthese young people who were doing real science
and contributing to information. I thinkcitizen science is such a fantastic way for
young people to get involved in sciencesand they're not inhibited by what are people
going to think? They think becausethey think to themselves, I'm doing something
valuable and I'm following my own interestsand passions and they don't care what the

(33:28):
next person thinks. They just goand do it. Yeah, it's really
cool, and I think, youknow, for me, it seems so
basic. But doing a little beachcleanup or a cleanup in your school grounds
or in the community is I mean, it's not only helpful, but it
makes you feel like you actually didsomething. So many things in the day
you can't actually cross off your listor complete, but cleaning up a certain

(33:52):
area is so satisfying. And Ido that with my kids all the time
because they understand. They get sointo it, kind of like a treasure
hunt, you know, a weirdtreasure hunt. And you can see before
and after I actually made a differencetoday, you know. I think kids,
everybody can benefit from that. Yeah, this idea of action, you

(34:13):
know, start with some understanding,give them a sense of hope, but
then follow that up with some action, and you've kind of got the perfect
storm, if you will, fora better future. I think that the
argument that all always make is thesolution to climate issues, whether it's ocean

(34:34):
acidification or ocean temperatures, or microplasticsor CO two levels. It's not necessarily
oh, we should all we alwayswe all ought to drive electric cars,
we should all power homes to solarenergy. I think the solution is not
those things, but it is education. People need to know first, and

(34:57):
once they understand the the adience behindwhat we're dealing with. Then we can
sit in brainstorm solutions and go outand do something about it. Well,
I mean, I think unfortunately educationabsent that always has to happen, But
we're at the stage where the actionhas to happen now, right, and
so we do need those kind offederal and global initiatives and targets in place

(35:22):
today. So that's why it's frustratingthat we, as you mentioned before,
you know, we're always talking abouttimelines in the future. Oh, in
the future, we'll get to this. Well, guess what, we can't
do that anymore? Has happened today? What was this magical year of twenty
fifty. Everything's happen by twenty fifty. Every politician, well by twenty fifty,
well, oh you will, willyou? That is not a bold

(35:43):
move. You know. A boldmove was John F. Kennedy saying,
before this decade is out, Iwant a man on the moon. And
that took seventy years because he saidthat in nineteen sixty nine, they're standing
on the moon. That's an incrediblebold move. And we don't make those
bold moves, and we need tothose bold moves, and it needs to
start. It needs to start inthe schools I believe and then go from

(36:07):
there. Absolutely. I'm so curiouswhy you became an educator. Uh yeah,
well, I mean why I gotinto it and why I do what
I do today are two different things. But when I first got my science
degree, drew in biology and chemistry. I always like to tell the story

(36:29):
about how we were studying for anexam at university. A bunch of us
got together in a classroom and somebodywas explaining something on the board. I
can't remember what it was, andI said, wait, wait, wait
here, let me get up thereand do that. And I said,
I think more it's clear if youjust do this, this, and this.
There was one fellow in the groupwith us. His name was Dominic
Kelly. He was the old guy. He was like thirty five years old.

(36:52):
He was the old guy. We'reall about twenty ancient. Yeah,
And he said, you know,you ought to be a teacher, And
I said, really, huh.I never thought of that. And that
really stuck with me. And I'llalways credit Dominic Kelly for being my original
inspiration. But what I do todayin terms of teaching science from the point

(37:17):
of view of relevance and meaning andcurrency, like, what's going on right
now? Who are the people doingthe science that we can learn from.
Who are the people I can haveon my podcast you can bring us the
most up to date, relevant,meaningful information. That all started because I
was that teacher who was a littlebit scared to say climate change is caused

(37:40):
by us. And this would havebeen in eight nine in that era,
and I got an email from amother who said, you know, you
ought to be careful about what youteach because climate change is real and we're
causing it. And she sent meall these documents. I thought, oh
wow, So this mom's child wenthome and said, mom, mister Stevenson

(38:01):
was telling us that maybe it's usand maybe it's not. It could be
a natural thing. And she wentnope, I got to talk to that
guy and she whit me, that'samazing thing that you sent me. And
ever since said, I thought,if I'm going to teach science, it's
got to be for a reason.You know this this question that kids asked,
why do we have to know?When? When am I going to

(38:21):
need to know this? If Ican't answer that question, I wonder why
I'm teaching it. Yeah, Imake sure everything I teach has a meaning
and purpose. As I suspect yourshow The Nature Things, every episode isn't
just some interesting thing, but itprobably has a purpose to bring us closer
connected to the natural world around us, right, I hope. So yeah,

(38:44):
I think that's very important. Ohmy god, that's a really interesting
story you just told that, becauseit took it took a child to go
home to her mom to say that, and then it took the mom actually
bringing you the information, and thenit took you being open and receptive and
to get her what her point was. Right. So yeah, that's a

(39:04):
really good story. I wish Icould remember the student, and I don't,
and I've actually searched through my emailfiles to see if I could find
and I can't. But I rememberthe event. And I'll always say to
students or anybody who will listen,don't wait for the big things in life
to change your course. It usuallyis these small moments, and you have

(39:28):
to be open to these small momentsand be receptive to what they're teaching you.
And in this case, I wasreceptive and it changed the way I
teach science, and I think forthe better. That's very cool, and
certainly I mean if any student isasking why chemistry and physics are important today,
it's more important than ever before,right, So you have that.

(39:49):
I had a would this would I'dlove to have heard your response to this,
But we are teaching. We're doingsome lessons on chorals and ocean acidification.
It was a grade nine sign classand one girl in my class I
always remember her name is Omily,and she raised her hand she said,
you know, I don't want tosound disrespectful, but why do we need

(40:12):
to know this? And all thestudents went oooh, what's the teacher going
to say? That was because theywere perceiving that as a very disrespectful question.
And I said, no, no, no, don't don't like Honestly,
Omily, that's one of the bestquestions that I've been asked this year.
And we spent the next little whilejust talking about why you need to
know what's going on in the oceans, Why we need to understand where do

(40:34):
we get our energy from, howis it affecting the atmosphere, how does
the atmosphere interact with the ocean.Why do we need to know this?
And I hope I convinced her.I hope I said the things, And
I think I did because I rememberwhen she graduated three years later. I
said to her, do you rememberwhen you asked me that question? She
goes, oh, yeah, Iremember that. I wonder what she did

(40:55):
she go on to university, andif so, what she chose to I
don't know. Yeah, yeah,that's a really good question though. I
mean, specifically, when we talkabout oceans, one of the things is
how do you explain why oceans areimportant to somebody who lives in the middle
of Canada and never interacts with it? Right? And so that is a
very important point for those of uswho are lucky enough to live on a

(41:17):
coast. Maybe we under we cansee it every day, but you know,
do people know that every second breathyou take is oxygen from the ocean
and things like that, the foodand the water cycle, all of this
is so the climate, the weather, how they're affected by oceans, right,
And if we don't understand, howdo we appreciate all of this stuff

(41:37):
is connected? And I think it'sa really actually important way to start a
discussion on oceans is why does anyof this stuff matter? I think that
was a very insightful question that yourstudent have. She put me on the
spot. But how it's great.That's what happens when Yeah, when you're
in education, you know you haveto be ready for these questions. But

(41:58):
it is a far better question.And then, you know, the typical
question you get in the science classroomis now, just remind me how many
how many electrons are in the thirdorbital right? Yeah, Like, well,
okay, I can tell you that, but you could look it up.
Yeah, look that up. Like, come on, let's let's talk
about something of value and meaning that'sgoing to actually affect the world. And

(42:20):
that's that's where scientific discovery comes intoplay. I would say, far more
so than what we've been traditionally doing, right, Yeah, I think.
I mean, if I were tosay what is the most important for me
when I think back on the amazingeducators that I've had in my life,
it's a sense of wonder with thenatural world that they were they helped me

(42:43):
unlock, right, just like,oh my god. Like the curiosity,
because in my mind, that's allthat it is. Being a scientist is
being curious. You're asking questions,and as long as you're asking questions,
you're gaining information. You're interested inthe world and I think it's very easy
for people today to think, oh, scientists, like how do I relate
to them? So stuffy? Theyspeak in a weird way. But if

(43:05):
you're like, no, like howdid a whale come from? An animal
who has four legs, lives onland, has a snout, webbed feet,
and hoops, like what tell methat? You know? Like that
is so interesting and that's science.Science is fascinating. But it's more questions
and answers. Yeah, it ismore questions and answers, and that's the

(43:25):
that's the topic of the one ofthe next episodes coming up, isn't it
The Mystery of the walk here theValley of the Walking Whale. Mystery of
the Walking Whale? Yeah? Yeah, it airs January eleventh on CBC's So
very Cool. Yeah, it wasa really neat story, very like you
to do that. I got achance to watch it already. Oh great,

(43:49):
great pre screening. Yeah, itwas pretty cool, pretty cool episode.
And you got to travel all overthe place to record that, didn't
you. I did? Yeah.I started in Dominican Republic to see where
the humpback whales were. They cameto get birth and to breed and meet
some scientists there, and then weactually got to go to Egypt to the
Valley of the Whales in Wadi Hittanin the middle of the desert, and

(44:13):
that was unbelievable because I got tosee firstthand skeletons of whale ancestors from forty
million years ago, and they're unearthingthem, they're uncovering them from the sand.
Is that right, that's right,yeah, exactly, And so you
actually probably saw the film, butI had to take my shoes off and
walk around in the sand because youare literally stepping on bones from creatures,

(44:37):
not just whales, but also sharksfrom millions of years ago. I found
a huge shark tooth and pieces ofvertebrae from whales and every day. I
mean, you can imagine, it'slike an open air museum. All these
skeletons of these animals are just exposedto the elements, and when the rain
comes down and when the wind whipsup, they're either being exposed or taken

(45:00):
away. So these researchers have toact quickly in some cases to get the
skeletons that they want. It wasan unbelievable trip. Now, now I
watched I watched the episode with mywife Cheryl and her question. She's not
a scientist, she's not a scienceeducator, and I didn't know if I
had a good answer for her ornot, but she said forty million years

(45:21):
ago, fifty million years ago.I don't know. I don't understand how
they know it was. How isthat long ago? Like do you have
kind of like I know that you'retalking about isotopes and Radiotah, that kind
of thing totally that we don't coverthat in the film. There was just
so many things to cover that wecouldn't really go down. But you're absolutely
right. I mean it was radiometricdating of the fossils, which is exactly

(45:44):
what you said. So it's likemeasuring the decaying of the isotopes, and
they do that in a lab,but they are able to quantify it,
so that's how they measure it.Yeah, that's so cool and who would
have thought but it you know,it totally makes sense. But here we
have we see whales and their snout, if you will, is on the
back of their head and this originalanimal also had a kind of an elevated

(46:07):
snout. It was on the topof his nose sort of thing. Well,
yeah, I mean, this iswhat's so bizarre, is fifty million
years ago, the oldest ancestor ofour current modern whales was an animal named
Pakasidas who had four legs, longtail. It was about the size of
a small deer or a large dog, and it kind of had it looked

(46:28):
like a huge rodent, that's whatI think. But yeah, it had
nostrils on the end of its nose, and it had these big teeth.
And you would never look at thatanimal and say that is an ancestor of
a whale. But then when yousee these skeletons together, you say,
okay, that's fifty million years ago, and then forty three million years ago
it looked slightly different. And thenby forty million years ago you have a

(46:52):
really long skeleton and tiny little legs, Like is that to me? That's
when I met the Basillasaurus, whichis forty million year old fossil, and
they called it king lizard because itwas so huge and long. But it
had these huge teeth, like thesemassive incisors, so they knew it wasn't

(47:15):
a lizard. But it had theselittle legs that were completely useless, like
how could legs this law support ananimal? That's twenty meters long, and
it's because they were. This isthe skeleton that shows how it went from
a four legged land based animal toa fully aquatic marine mammal. Well,

(47:36):
how did that happen? It's legs. Over time, it's back legs got
so small they shrunk and shrunk andthen eventually disappear, and its front limbs
turned into flippers, so they wereable to swim away. And that's what
the modern whale of today is.It's really in the flippers of let's say,
a hump back. You still seea bone structure similar to ours,

(47:59):
right, it's true, Yeah,the five fingers, yeah, yeah,
just so they're not digits anymore,it's yeah, exactly, So that's another
little hint, right, Like that'sinteresting. And then you know the fact
that whales have pelvises but they don'thave legs, Like it's almost like a
vestigial structure of the past, anotherkind of smoking gun, if you will,
right to show. And I thinkthat's what's so neat about the show

(48:21):
is that it's almost like a detectivestory. Right, You're looking at these
animals in a totally different whale way, and a whale like you know,
fully aquatic, but they breathe air, Like why would that be? You
know, and so little questions likethat, which again is what I think
is so beautiful about science is it'slike, oh, why is that animal

(48:44):
the way it is? You know, like why if they spend all their
time in the ocean, why wouldthey have to breathe air? And then
taking you back in time is it'sa fascinating story. Do you see your
these episodes as being something that ateacher could show in the class? Oh
yeah, don't you. I meanyou saw this one. Do you think
it would be a good learning tool? Yeah? Oh absolutely, Yeah,

(49:05):
you'd want to probably break it intochunks because of shortness of a class length.
But yeah, absolutely, the thingsthat you're showing in that one episode,
it relates to your grade eleven biologycourse for sure, and it relates
as well to just about any sciencecourse in terms of what we're seeing is
sort of playing out right before oureyes evidence of and as well the scientific

(49:30):
method which is also and then withthe idea of the dating of these things.
What is radiometric dating? Oh well, let me just get into a
little lesson on isotopes. Yeah,yeah, exactly, But I think it
could kind of open up people's eyesto kind of look at any living animal
and say, oh, well,where did they come from, you know,

(49:50):
and did they have relatives and howdid they get here? And also
it's a great way to segue intoclimate too, because you know where I
was standing, and why do youton the valley of the whales? It
was actually a desert, right,but of course forty million years ago it
was the teennes See exactly. Itwas a very rich and diverse ocean full
of whales and other animals. Soyou know, whales were successful because they

(50:14):
transitioned into the oceans. They're nowin all of the major oceans in our
world. They've been around for along time now, but it's because of
the changes in climate in their environmentthat they had to change to suit their
they're new homes. I'm just I'mthinking of so many different things about whales.
I wanted to ask you, likeI'm just thinking of right now in

(50:35):
terms of locally, we have ournorthern and southern residents. You've done a
lot of research into noise pollution andthe southern residents are horribly affected. The
ferries are going back and forth,the shipping out of Vancouver. Well,
one of the great things about thisproblem is you can actually turn it off
instantly. It's not like climate change, where if we were all stop all

(50:59):
fossil fuel burning today, we wouldn'tsee the impacts of the CO two and
the temperatures for a while. Thisis like if you turned off all the
noise, it would stop. Andthe other thing is most of the time
when we're talking about boats and allthat, if they slow down, they're
also winning economically. Because fuel youcan actually make it go farther. So

(51:21):
there are some other benefits to it, and I think that's why there has
been some progress with marine noise andshipping industry. Different sectors have been a
bit more open to thinking about thisand maybe changing their roots then people might
have been anticipating. So, yeah, it's not all bad news. But
I you know, I study fish. I don't study whales, so I

(51:44):
don't know very much about whales.And this is why it was so fun
for me to embark on this journey, because like everything was new and fascinating.
You know, you have all thesegraduate degrees and yet you're still excited
about learning new things. Oh mygod, don't you Just for some are
excited. I mean, it's likethere's endless things to learn about, right,

(52:06):
and definitely when you go to anotherpart of the world. Like a
big part of why I was sofascinated with going to Egypt was the people
and the scientists that I met there. And one of the people, the
scientists that took us around her namewas Sharuk al Ashgar, and she was
one of the first female palaeontologists inall of Egypt. And the things that
she had to go through to bewhere she was was amazing. I mean,

(52:29):
she would go out into the fieldwith completely all men for weeks on
end, and that was just notaccepted, and she was doing unbelievable things.
And while we were there, thepresident actually honored her on Mother's Day
because of her work. And soyeah, there's just a whole other film
that we should have made. Sometimes, well, that's exactly the passion

(52:52):
that I want teachers to bring intothe classrooms, is this sort of idea
that it's so excited to learn newthings. And this is why my whole
theme is like listen to podcasts,watch documentaries, find the right YouTubers and
the instagrammers. You're putting this greatcontent out there and get fascinated by what
they're doing, get excited about it, and bring that excitement to the classes.

(53:12):
We need students to come out ofschool excited to learn about these things
and get people like you and dothis great work of content. Well,
yeah, thank you for that.And I do want to say that a
lot of the times we think ofscientists as very stuffy and like they don't
want to get their facts wrong andthey're not the greatest communicators. But start
asking them about what they study,and they become more passionate than anybody I

(53:37):
know, Like they are so excitedabout their mudshrimp that they're working on,
you know, like it's so fun. And so I think that that is
also a great tool for teachers,is to you can talk to these scientists
and get them speaking about why theystudy what they study, and they will
just turn into this unbelievable communicator andthat I think could be really infectious for

(54:01):
students. So is the show goingto be a weekly episode? Yes,
So the Whale Show will be oneshow, one doc, one hour,
and then the next week. Thisweek, actually the first Nature of Things
of the year is going to beairing, and that Anthony Morgan did one
on The Human Voice, which Ihaven't seen yet, but I'm so excited

(54:22):
to watch on January fourth, andso every week there will be a new
show for this on CBC and theCBC gem app problem that's right, and
CBC Gym is free and I don'tknow if you have it, but it's
fantastic. Yeah I do. Ialways go to the documentaries category and just
see what's been posted recently in Yeah, yeah, absolutely, right on.

(54:45):
That's another great resource for teachers andeducators. Yeah. Yeah, I want
to say thank you so much forcoming on with me today. I love
the excitement and the enthusiasm for science. That's got to be infectious. It
has got to rub off onto peopleacross all schools. You're a great example
and I appreciate what you're doing.Ah, that's very kind of you.

(55:07):
Thank you. And you know,I know that the nature of things is
synonymous with David Suzuki, and Ihave to say, he is eighty seven
years old, and he is moreexcited and curious about the world than anyone
I know. And that makes youageless, Like if you meet somebody who's
an elder who's interested and excited aboutthe world. You're like, oh my

(55:29):
god, it could be thirty Like, it's just it's an ageless quality to
have that constant yearning to learn,and I hope that most people can can
get that because it's a beautiful thing. There's so much to learn about this
world, learn about science and increasethe length of your life. There's a
good combination, right, Is thatthe takeaway? Maybe? Well, maybe

(55:52):
maybe we'll bump into each other sometime. I know, I've been to Quadri
Island and we'll probably Yeah, youhave friends who live on the island.
It's a beautiful park, so you'revery fortunate it'd be there. Yeah.
Yeah, Well, I hope ourpaths do cross. And thank you for
this very important series that you're doing. I hope to tune in one day
and listen. Great, all right, thank you, Srika. Okay,

(56:13):
thank you bye. I hope youspend more time with Sirika by tuning into
the show. The Nature of Thingseasy to find, easy to watch for
free on the CBC gem app,Download it and play it for yourself.
Learn some things. Play for yourclasses, let them learn some things and

(56:34):
benefit from the world's longest running scienceshow, The Nature of Things.