Dave Del Col with Sy and Eric

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back toour final edition of the Scouts on our
podcast for the twenty twenty four draftseason. Today, we're pleased to bring
back two of our recent guests toreview and recap how the draft went for
the New York Football Giants. Ericand said, welcome back to the show,
guys. Good to be on.What's up Dave? What's up?
Bart? This is gonna be afun time. Looking forward to it.

(00:22):
Yeah, very excited to have youguys both on at the same time.
I think we'll get some valuable insightsin perspective from both of you, like
we always do. So. Kickingus off, it's the hundredth season for
the Giants. We got classic uniformscoming back. They started to leak the
schedule a bit, you know,Brian Burns return against the Panthers and Munich.

(00:43):
We're playing at Dallas on Thanksgiving.The schedule lease obviously coming up a
bit later tonight. And the otherbig news of today, the Giants are
going to be featured on Hard Knocksand Off season edition, the first of
its kind. What are you guyslooking forward to the most out of that?
No. I texted my buddy onceI saw that the Giants were gonna

(01:03):
be at Hard Knocks, and Iwas like, this is kind of like
a boring team. So I wassurprised. Of all the years in recent
memory where the Giants were very interesting, I just didn't see this one being
it. You know, Eli Mannings, you know him having Daniel Jones come
into town, that would have beena fun year. Saquon Barkley any year,
or him with Odell Beckham, thosewould have been fun years for the

(01:26):
public to see. And I knowHollywood and HBO they'll have a way to
make to dramatize it. I thinkit's gonna be a great situation for Dexter
Lawrence. He's such a big timepersonality and I think everyone's gonna really be
drawn to him. But you know, storyline wise, I'm kind of wondering
what is the draw to the Giantsbeyond you know, year three being a

(01:48):
potential. You know, we're gonnatalk about this leader a hot seat year
for a regime that went backwards ina big way. Next year is that
the storyline? Is it the theyoung town on a storied franchise? Is
thee hundredth anniversary? Are they goingto bring in LT at some point like
what is the storyline behind this andwhat's the con and what's the reasoning behind
it. That's what I'm most confusedabout, but I will look forward to

(02:08):
It's gonna be a fun time.My guess is the league has been on
the Giants case for years and yearsand years as the number one market in
the NFL to be to be onthis show, and if you look at
it, they're only going to coverit up until camp. So I think

(02:29):
it was a compromise on the partof the team saying, Okay, we'll
do it this year, but you'renot You're not going to cover us in
training camp, which I actually likesome of the fans. It's interesting.
The reaction on the board today wassplit. Some were real negative on it
and some we're high on it.I think it's pretty cool because the Giants
did the last couple of years,they've had this Giant's Life show and they've

(02:52):
showed the insights to the draft,both pre draft process post draft process,
and I think that's what they're goingto focus on. And I love seeing
the and again, it's gonna beedited. They're gonna they're going you know,
if there was somebody on the secondround that they were hoping would fall
to them. They're not going toshow that reaction. But I love seeing
the draft, I love seeing thewar room stuff, and I love seeing

(03:14):
the phone calls. So July isa dead period until training camp starts,
so I'm all for this. Ido agree with cy. I think it's
it's an interesting team to pick,but I think I think I think the
league probably finally just said it's yourturn. You're you run out of excuses,
You're gonna have to That's my guess. I didn't see that. Is

(03:35):
it just pre training camp? Isthat what they until training camp? They
will I didn't see that training camp. So they're way they're saying is they
will cover the team from the endof the season up until the start of
They won't include camp and until basicallyJuly. So so it'll be interesting.
For instance, do they cover winksdeparture, you know that kind of thing,

(03:59):
you know, is that gonna bein there? And if so,
how are they going to address that? I get I'm guessing side from your
point of view, it's gonna bevery heavy on the draft. That's awesome,
So that might be really interesting foryou I think both both given your
background, plus you know you're you'rea Giants fan, I think from both
point of view, I don't thinkwe've had a big, you know,
inside look at the Giants, andI think that that's kind of the draw

(04:21):
out to the non Giants fan isthis is one team that to non Giants
fans that's a little bit more mysteriousbecause they don't let people look behind the
curtain, and now they're doing it, so non Giants fans might see for
the first time how the organization run. So cool, that's great. Hopefully
we get some clarity on if thetrade up in the first round was legitimate

(04:42):
and was it for a quarterback seenI still contend it was a ploy to
get Marvin Harrison to drop, butmaybe we'll find out come July. I'm
looking forward to it. I thinkit is because it's one hundredth season and
there's just some synergies there of likeyou know, I mean, they're already
dropping some good media stuff with likethose trailers and everything they put out this

(05:04):
week, so it should be interesting. But yeah, particularly with the new
dynamic of this hard knots being likean off season thing for the Giants,
to be the first ones to kindof set the stage for that goes against
the grain of their hesitation in yearspast to even be remotely involved in hard
knocks. So it should be prettyinteresting looking forward to July, for sure.

(05:27):
Can I throw one thing out theretoo, that's so yeah, yeah,
go well, there were two announcementstoday. I mean there are two
big things going on. That wasone. It's more minor, but the
schedule's coming out. Yeah, Andone of the things on the schedule was
the announcement early on in the morningthat Giants are going to play in Germany
and they put out a The Giantsdid put out a flyer on the promotion

(05:47):
promotional flyer on this game, andthere are three Giants on the flyer,
Wandel Robinson, Dexter Lawrence, andKeevon Thibodeau. Someone's missing from the now
the conspiracy theorist, and he saysthat that might be a tell. But
but but I just throw that outthere. Daniel Jones is not on that

(06:08):
flyer. So that may lead usinto our next conversation. How do you
not put Brian Burns on the flyerwhen he's playing his former team? I
mean, Bryce Young has got tobe sweating bullets for that game in Germany.
That's a good point too, Yeah, yep, But all right,
well let's jump into the draft.Says, that's what we're here for.

(06:31):
Obviously a pretty interesting draft overall,I think, on paper, pretty successful
based off of years past. Thereweren't any sort of throw the remote type
picks of like who is that guygoing in the third round? I think
all these names are pretty familiar toeverybody, pretty strong throughout the draft process,
high level, what'd you guys thinkof the draft overall? Giants gott

(06:56):
better that that that's the simplest wayto put it, and what team is
not going to say that post draft? So I know that that's a little
bit too bird's eye perspective and probablya little too cliche to say. But
the Giants added town at spots thatthey were starving for talent, and at
no point did I think that theyoverreached for someone in terms of value.
So you came to this draft needing, absolutely needing a playmaker on the outside.

(07:20):
You probably needed that as much asyou needed a quarterback. And that
was I don't know if Eric canspeak to this, that was one of
the probably the most debated same subjects. Every time you go to BBI,
its is Daniel Jones, this DanionJones? That is he the guy?
Is he not the guy? Imean, day after day, week after
week, month after month. Butlost in that shuffle, Lost in that

(07:40):
conversation was the dire need for awide receiver draft in one of the best
wide receiver drafts we've ever seen,especially at the top. So whether you
wanted quarterback or not, whether youthought they should have traded up or sat
there and taken JJ McCarthy their Weekone opponent, by the way, getting
that wide receiver at number six thattruly has that Odell Beckham ability to change

(08:01):
an offense. It's a great start, but I think the rest of the
draft was just as impressive. Itjust doesn't steal the headlines. I mean,
you get two guys that can startin year one on the defensive backfield,
in a defensive backfield that just lostthe safety and Xavier McKinney. They
don't have an answer opposite Deontay Banks. THEO Johnson is one of the is

(08:22):
and I've said this prior to thedraft, he is the highest upside tight
end in this draft. Brock Bauersincluded, and to get him in round
four is something that you got tobe really excited about. Tyrone Tracy,
another guy pre draft I said,is one of the most unique, interesting
prospects. You might not think he'sthe best. There's a lot of he's
got a chew off before he's anactual part of an NFL offense, but

(08:43):
he is such an interesting player tome for a career wide receiver that was
in college for five six years andall of a sudden goes into the backfield
and starts breaking tackles and gaining yardsafter contact with the best in the country
in a Purdue offense that was essentiallyrevolving around him. So there's just a
lot of talent that was added tokey spots on this roster, and I

(09:03):
never felt they drafted for me.There there's really good value across the board.
Yeah, I think they did well. I think the one thing that
they didn't do is screw it up. So Shane said before the draft that
they're going to get a good playerat six. They're not overly worried about.
Now that's for pr consumption, butI do think they felt that the

(09:26):
big question is this how what washow strongly did they try to move up
and get that quarterback? I don'tknow if we'll ever know the answer to
that. Sigh has made comments andI think he might be onto something that
he won. And I don't wantto put words in your mouthside, but
you've said previously that you wonder howstrong an effort that really was, And

(09:50):
as Dave mentioned, was that partof a toy maybe to get somebody else
to drop. I don't discount thatat all. So what I w really
would like to know, and we'llnever really know, is did they make
a serious effort to trade up andget May And if they did, that's
very telling, But it's also somewhattelling that if they didn't do that,

(10:13):
or they tried and they didn't panicand draft the next the fourth quarterback on
the board, I think that's tellingtoo. Which stands out to me if
you look at from a big picturepoint of view, is this the Giants
took a wide receiver like as Isaid, in a wide receiver strong draft,

(10:33):
a guy that projects to be animpact player at a position that seems
to be ever growing in importance inthis league. And that's moving forward.
Whether you like Daniel Jones or not. That's going to be an important part
of this team if he is whohe's supposed to be. But what I
also find interesting is this, andwe can get into the details of this,
is this is a team that onlyhad six picks, had a ton

(10:54):
of needs, but they came outof the draft not addressing either of the
lines. And I think there's thereare reasons behind that. I think there
was a run in the second roundbefore the Giants picked on defensive tackles.
I think that might have been playedinto that. It would have been interesting
to see if any of those guyswere there when the Giants did pick.

(11:16):
There were Also there was also arun on corners in the second round.
So when I was watching the draftlive, and I know SI does this
too, he he likes to playGM while he's doing this, my reaction
was when they got in the secondround, was man, the corners and
the defensive lineman. I've flown offthe board. Do I want to pick

(11:37):
the fifth or sixth corner, thefifth and sixth defensive line lineman, or
do I want to take the numberone safety on my board? And I
wonder if that was part of thethought process there too. I wasn't looking
at safety when they drafted in thesecond round, but that pick makes a
lot of sense given who the playerwas in, the type of system he
played at Minnesota, and the typeof system the Giants are going to play.

(11:58):
So I thought that was a reallygood pick. I didn't know much
about Drew Phillips until after the draft, and that pick's really grown on me.
Theil Johnson, to me, seemslike a no brainer around four.
I think that he was sticking outlike a sore thumb when that happened.
And Tracy Tracy's that's a great maybesaid can comment on this. Has there
ever been a player like him thatshifted from wide receiver so late in his

(12:24):
college career to running back and beenso impressive in that one year. I've
never seen anything like that, butreally not in college. I mean,
we've seen it in the NFL witha guy like Ty Montgomery, Cordero,
Parrott, Patterson, a wide receiverthat went to the NFL and really kind
of entrenched himself into the backfield.But you know all the notes and comparisons

(12:45):
I have, You know how Ifeel about comparisons. I don't I like
to use them. To create apicture of what a guy might be a
skill set, but he was atough guy. To come up with a
comparison to be is, I can't. I don't have anything in my system
where a guy played wide receiver forfour to five years and then all of
a sudden goes to running back andtore it up. By the way,
he didn't just play running back.He tore it up this past year and

(13:07):
gets drafted in the fifth round.I don't think that's ever occurred before.
Well, what stands out to mewith him is this is if you told
me the Giants drafted a converted widereceiver or running back, I would say,
oh, great, this guy's notgoing to be physical. But my
god, I mean, this guybounces off tackles left and right. And
that's I don't remember the statistic offthe top of my head, but he

(13:31):
had one of the I think heI think he had an unreal yards after
contact figure in this draft among allthe running backs in this draft and even
historically speaking in the last few years. So hopefully that's not a one year
wonder type of thing. But whenI and again I don't do what you
do say, you go back andwatch the games from start to finish.

(13:54):
I'm I'm cherry picking through stuff thatI find on YouTube, so I'm seeing
the best plays. Though I didthe other day, I did go back
and try to watch one that hadmore of his you know, the runs
that he didn't pick up a lotof yards, but even in those,
he's a very physical running back andfor a converted wide receiver, I didn't
expect that. I mean, hehe has a chance, yes, me,

(14:16):
he has a chance to be apretty significant player early for this team.
I like you, I haven't givenup on Eric Gray, but at
the very least, those two aregoing to be really pushing each other and
they're gonna bring out the best,I think in each other. Because Eric
Ray can't can't assume he's going tobe the number two running back on his
team right now. Yeah, justsimple supply and demand. The Giants lose

(14:39):
Saquon Barkley, who was option one, two and three for this offense for
multiple years. Now, you know, you bring in Devin Singletary, who
I would say he's probably a biggerspeed bump to Tyrone Tracy because of the
similar skill set. Singletary is agreat receiver, and I think that's what
he's going to be a big partof this offense. Uh. In terms
of rolewise, you're one in EricGray my be more of the bruiser at

(15:01):
least early on Tracy. I thinkone thing that you said that stands out
is is the ability to gain yardsafter contact, the physical nature, because
he does he When you watch himrun and really study him compared to other
backs, it really does look likehe doesn't know how to play running back,
but he still produces. So there'slike an art and a skill to
playing running back and setting up yourblocks and getting to the same right point

(15:24):
at the right time and making yourbreakup field and based on the leverage of
the blocks. He doesn't have thatyet, and at college it just didn't
matter because once he got ahead ofsteam. He's a very fast running back.
I think he was in the fourfour six range, which is good
speed for running back, and heplays to that speed and he's explosive,
but he just doesn't run with tempoyet. But I'd rather try to control

(15:46):
this kind of like wild horse inhim rather than try to get a back
that didn't run aggressively enough, whichin hindsight's twenty twenty one thing I felt
Saquon Barkley never got to on aconsistent basis was really putting his shoulder down
and running behind his paths when wereally needed it. Just you know,
for a guy that was as bigand as strong as him, we didn't

(16:07):
see him play to that. Andthat's a harder thing to develop. You
that's more of a mental trait thanphysical, and I think Tracy has that
mental trait in him. Now isjust going to be about really curtailing and
controlling that aggression. And the neatthing about him is this. Imagine when
they split him out wide now,I mean he's played wide receiver. He
knows how to play that position.So it's not going to be a transitioned

(16:29):
to him. It's the transition forhim from the college to NFL as a
wide receiver is going to be somuch easier. Even catching passes out of
the backfield. But you know,Kafka and Daball are already thinking, as
long as he can pass block,They're already thinking, this is a guy,
this is a guy we can playaround with. I don't want to
say gadget player, but he's gonnabe much more comfortable. There were all

(16:52):
there was there was a really neatI wish I remember who they were playing.
There was a really neat play wherethey uh uh, Purdue had him
going down the middle of the fieldlike a wide receiver a post route,
and it was a huge play inthe ball game. And he looked like
a wide receiver playing because he is. He looked like a wide receiver on
that play. And that's just goingto open up so many things in the

(17:14):
playbook, especially when you've got yougot to figure that teams are going to
be rolling their coverage to neighbors now, and then the other thing you got
a factor in. And I knowI may be way too high on him,
but I'm a big fan of whatI saw at a Hyatt his first
year, even though he didn't havenumbers. Absolutely leaving Hyatt one on one
in the NFL is dangerous to me, And I think he's gonna be a

(17:36):
lot more chances now. Whether wegot the quarterback they can get him the
ball, that's a different question.But but I really like I like the
tools they have to play with rightnow. And that's my big takeaway on
the draft was they dressed the secondary, they addressed the weapons. What they
couldn't do because they didn't have enoughpicks. Was the defensive line and the
offensive line, and they obviously theyhit the offensive line in free agency.

(18:02):
The DL sticks out a little bitto me, and I think, you
know, I think we all knowthey would have liked to have hit that
too, but I just don't thinkthey had they had the ammunition. Yep.
Agreed. They addressed both of thosepositions a bit with undrafted free agents,
which we can get to here ina bit as well. But yeah,
I mean, you both know,I'm a huge trenches guy, so
I was pretty perturbed by the factthat we didn't go with any offensive or

(18:26):
defensive lineman because every at that I'mlike, all right, here we go,
like plenty of good offensive line andlet's grab one of these guys.
And it didn't happen. But Iagree with you. We addressed both those
positions throughout free agency undrafted free agents, So you gotta pick your battles,
particularly when you got limited hits pickson the Tyrone Tracy front. One guy

(18:47):
who I think is a pretty solidcomp is Curtis Samuel, And when I
went back and looked at them,pretty similar Curtis Samuel ran four to three
nine. By comparison, Tyrone Tracydoing like a four four nine and Tyron
Tracy's got like ten more pounds onhim, but similar set of circumstances.
You know, started as a widereceiver. Granted, Curtis Samuel won in
the second round, so getting TyroneTracy later on day three obviously ideal,

(19:12):
but very interested to see how itshakes out for him. Who do you
guys think which rookie is going tomake the biggest impact on the field for
the Giants in year one? Imean, the easy answer is Malik Neighbors,
And you know, to dive deeperon that answer, he's already the
wide receiver one on this team.When you're just talking about talent, I

(19:34):
wouldn't be surprised if he leads theteam in targets. You know, health
is always a part of it,but you know, we're assuming that everyone
stays healthy. Right, He's byfar the easy impact. But it's not
just the talent. It's not justthe fact that he was the number six
overall pick. He is he isthe fit for Brian Dables offense. He
is Stefan Diggs. When the twowere together in Buffalo, he can line

(19:56):
up in the slot, he canline up outside, he can split those
rolls down the middle, and ittakes a specific skill set and ability level
to do that, and the lakneighbors did that at LSU, and Brian
Dable has wanted that kind of piecehere in his two seasons and it just
hasn't worked out. They tried tofinagle and use Darren Waller here in wan
Dale Robinson here, but now hehas his true versatile guy that you don't

(20:19):
know where he's going to line upat the when the huddle breaks, which
puts a little bit of pressure onthe defense and can set up other players
on this team. And like Ericsaid, this is probably in recent years,
I would say it's by far themost talented group of receivers they've had.
They're not all established yet, butwhen you combine the skill sets of
neighbors Hyatt Robinson, that's as much. And even Slayton, you know,

(20:42):
I don't want to talk I feellike he gets almost talked down on too
much because he didn't blossom into whatwe thought he could have been after a
strong rookie season, but just anothersolid, you know, every down guy
that you don't mind being on thefield, and it's just a really deep
group. But Neighbors is the guythat's going to be able to really be
the focal point of the passing gameand lasting on him his skill set.

(21:03):
What makes him most impressive, especiallyearly on because there is some development needed
with his route running and even someof his ball skills, which I'm sure
he'll get to right is he's sucha competitor after the catch. I mean
he broke fifty one tackles between twentytwenty two and twenty twenty three combined,
and just for reference, roalmu Dunsdayand Marvin Harrison the other two receivers that

(21:23):
were given elite grades by myself andseveral others, those two combined, I
think it was thirty six. Imean, Neighbors is just doing work by
himself and if you watch him competeand now Shane and Dabel, they were
talking about this NonStop. I thinkwhat was the word that Dable used.
I think they called him a generator, meaning get the ball in his hands,
he's going to make it happen.And in a passing game where you

(21:45):
don't know what's happening at quarterback,you're not completely sure about the offensive line.
Yet you need to have these dogsafter the catch, and that's what
Neighbors is going to produce right away. So I took the easy route there
and talked about Lak Neighbors being themost impactful year one by far. Yeah,
it better be Neighbors number six.It better beat him. I I've

(22:08):
been falling the draft since the mideighties, and I learned a long time
ago, going back to Derrek Brownwhen he was picked up as the tight
end from Notre Dame, that whowas supposed to be the sure thing,
the next Mark Bavarro. For sure, there are no sure things, but
Neighbors looks about as sure thing isas there is in this draft. And

(22:29):
I think, and we didn't reallytalk about this, but I think you
know when the Giants didn't get thequarterback, they the risk there was this
is do you take the wide receiver, that the sure thing wide receiver who
has the ability to be one ofthe top in the game, or do
you dress the quarterback position, whichlooks like a glaring need at this but

(22:56):
you you kind of reach for thatguy and if you miss miss up on
that pick. Now, let's behonest, the Giants have missed on a
lot of top ten picks in thelast decade, and if you miss up,
you mess up on this pick again, you're setting the team back a
lot. So in a way,you can say they took a very conservative
approach. But as I said earlier, I think there were there's some glaring

(23:19):
needs on this team, and widereceiver is one of them. The wide
receiver was staring them in the faceand they took the sure thing. So
I don't feel bad about that,but that has reduced their window of when
do you get that quarterback? AndI'm sure we can get in that.
But the answer the answer the question, it better be neighbors. But when
I look at the other picks,I see a lot of potential starters in

(23:41):
this draft. Maybe not immediately,but I think nubn for for instance,
has a chance to start from dayone. I think the Cordell flot comments
by the Giants staff in May arevery interesting. They seem to want him
to win the outside corner spot,which de facto almost hands the Nickel spot

(24:02):
to Drew Phillips, So that that'skind of telling to me. So you
could get into a situation here wherethe top three picks maybe day one starters,
and theil Johnson has the ability tobe an eventual starter. We already
talked about Tracy. We didn't evenget into the sixth round pick. I
want to mispronounce this Muasaw I thinkis big what I and I think I
sort of poop pooed me my commentson this on the website and he'll know

(24:26):
more than me. But there werea lot of comments coming after the draft
from people followed the East West Shrinegame that seemed to say, hey,
this guy's an underrated guy, andhe really impressed the scouts and the coaches
that were there that day. So, you know, the pie and this
guy. Part of me says,hey, maybe we got another Antonio old

(24:47):
Pierce here, you know. Buthe's very undersized athletically, he doesn't test
all that great. But I likehis personality the little of it I've seen,
and he seems to be very productive. So I I think it's a
very strong clut cult by ass andI think all of them can make an
impact. But if Neighbors isn't theleading guy, then there's probably something wrong.
It should be Neighbors. Yeah,I think my guy is going to

(25:11):
be Nuban in this context, andit's partially to do with the fact that
he is not relying on another playerto get him the football. He is
just able to go out there anddo his own thing. And you're right,
he's stepping right into a starting role. I think it's awesome that we
went back to back years Minnesota Gophersin round two with John Michael Schmidz and

(25:33):
then Tyler Nuban and Tyler Nuben.I wasn't really looking too much at the
safety position this year like most folks. I mean, we talked about it
pretty much on every show of thispodcast leading up to the draft that if
there was one position that we werewilling to all for go this year,
it would probably be safety. Sothen to see them pop off of safety
in round two was pretty jaw droppingto me. But Nuban is a fantastic

(25:56):
player. I think he's a greatlocker room guy. I think he's gonna
make it huge impact straight away onthis defense in a secondary that desperately needs
leadership. So I think he's gonnabe somebody that really stands out from the
pack. Although, yeah, witha six overall draft capital allocation in neighbors,
you would hope to see a lotof production out of him straight away.

(26:18):
And then you know, if DarrenWaller goes away, then THEO Johnson
really jumps right up towards the topof this list because I don't know if
he's gonna overtake Bellinger. I mean, that'll play out in camp and we'll
see how you know that all goes. But everybody seems really high in this
guy as a playmaker, as apass catcher, as a threat. I
mean you just see him against therest of the draft class and the photos

(26:41):
and the videos that have started tocome out from camp, and he is
enormous for a tight end. Yeah, built all the way through, thick
throughout, and he had a lotof great highlight plays down there at Penn
State. So looking forward to seeingall these guys make an impact and hopefully
they all make a resounding impact foryears to come. Can I asked so

(27:03):
question out there? Yeah, gofor it. Before we move on from
neighbors side, do you have anyconcerns with and we know we're gonna move
him around, do you have anyconcerns with neighbors playing outside? So I
know you're a fan of of WandellRobinson and we've talked about Hyatt and all
these guys have played the slot andyou know they're gonna move all around.

(27:25):
But do you have any concerns abouthim playing in that position playing outside?
I don't because he's he's competitive.His first two steps off the line,
there's explosive as you can find.I think there's a skill set to getting
off press coverage, which, honestly, in college, a lot of these
kids will come out and they justdon't need to do it that often.
You know, in college these kidsare so afraid of getting burned, and

(27:45):
in some cases for vowed reasons becausethey don't all run four fours, that
these receivers come into the league withouta lot of experience against real press coverage.
Right. And you know, dothey have a physical shortcoming with quickness
and agility? Neighbors do not.Do they have an aggression in physical shortcoming
when it comes to attitude, strengthapproach, neighbors does not. Is it

(28:08):
a skill that needs to be developedin practice? Absolutely? I would venture
to say if there's one thing theywant this kid to work on the most,
it's going to be releases off theline against press coverage. Once they
get comfortable enough there and I don'tthink I mean, that could happen before
training camp, because he's that talented. I don't have any concern with him
playing there. And I agree withyou Eric, there's a lot of slot

(28:29):
options on this offense. You can'tyou can't use them all at the same
time, and you want these guyson the field at the same time.
So I think the plan is goingto be to really really mix it up,
and hopefully that's not too mentally overwhelmingfor a rookie, because you know,
Dan or Lawski just put out somethingoutstanding that I think a lot of
fans have a disconnect with how hardit is to learn an NFL playbook,

(28:52):
how complex it is so for aguy to come in and this is why
tight ends THEO Johnson. They havea hard time developing quickly as quickly as
we want them because they have toessentially learn the offensive line playbook and then
also the passing game playbook and routesand receiver, especially if you're gonna move
him to the slot. I mean, he's another big slot, you know,
so you just have all these options. I think it's going to take

(29:14):
a little bit of time for youto really walk onto that field and say,
hey, we're confident that these guyscan all mix and match these positions.
But in time, Eric, Ihave no concern with him playing the
outside. Yeah, because that's oneof my questions too, is with THEO
Johnson. Is I saw an interviewwith one of the guys that covers Penn
State and he said, THEOL Johnson'snot a blocker. He said, he's

(29:37):
he's the Scotty reports that I've seen. Is he has the tools, he
has the ability to be that,but he wasn't what you think he was
at Penn State. I don't knowif you agree with us and not.
You obviously watched him, but thisguy was pretty strongly opinionated about you know,
he's if you're looking for a blockingtight end, THEO Johnson's not your
guy. If you're looking for aweapon in the red zone, he's your

(29:59):
guy. He also talked about somethingthat I saw on tape is he's a
he's a vertical threat on the seamroutes. And you saw that you didn't
have that many catches, but youdid see him send him down the seam
and you can see with that wingspancombined with his speed, I don't see
a lot of agility with him.But I see that that speed down the
seam, and I think, Ithink that's a real threat. So if

(30:21):
if that's an accurate take, andthat's why I'm asking you, if what
your views of him as a blockeris. But I agree with you where
you're saying, you know, he'sanother slot guy. Maybe too theo is
because they may see him as againanother Waller, Darren Waller type in that
you know, you don't really wanthe's going to have to block, but

(30:42):
that's not that's not his best attribute. You really want him use him in
the passing game. Absolutely. Imean that this is a this I call
it baby Deer movement, meaning heis a great athlete. Athletically, he
tested I think it was one ofthe top ten athletic scores in the history
of the combines position at six sixtwo fifty nine. I meant at the

(31:03):
Senior Bowl. I was on theboots on the ground down there, and
they had the Zebra technology how theguys, how fast these guys were moving
on the field called to the GPSdata, So it's very objective, and
he was the fastest tight end thereby a pretty wide margin. And there's
some good athletes at tight end downthere, so the fact that his speed
and explosion is real, But yeah, there are some issues with like that
short area change a direction. Icall it reactionary athletic ability, meaning you

(31:27):
know this guy moves left, canyou follow him right away or does it
take you the extra second? Youknow that high leged movement, leggie movement,
call it high hips, right,He has some of that, some
balance issues. I would love tosay that he's a twenty one year old
that hasn't grown into his body,but he's twenty three, So I would
say that's a reason why he endedup going Day three. You know,
it's this he If he was perfectin that department, he probably would have

(31:48):
been a first or second round pick. As a blocker, I'm going to
say that, no, he's nota blocking tight end, but he can
block, and that might be theeasy way out. You're not, I
will say this, You're not draftinghim to be an every down player with
a with a bias towards blocking.You're drafting this kid because he's a matchup
nightmare in the passing game. Butwe're gonna say he's somewhere between. You

(32:13):
know, they brought in a coupleof blocking tight ends this year, Jack
Stole from Philadelphia. That guy's adog. That guy is a blocking tight
end and he's never going to bethat, but he's never gonna be you
know, he's going to be abetter blocking presence than what you have in
Darren Waller. Daniel Bellinger is aguy that is just a really interesting,
you know, component slash variable towhat is THEO Johnson going to be in
twenty twenty four. I think Bellingerthis is gonna be his year too,

(32:36):
probably his his make or break.We're gonna give you the starting job.
We know that you've had a startingexperience, we know where your floor is.
So it's good enough to get onthe field and start games and catch
the ball when it's thrown too short. Not gonna make much happen after the
cash. But remember he was alsoa really high end athlete, a tester
out of the Combine, out ofSan Diego State. But you don't always
see it carry over to the field, and I think in year three you

(32:59):
kind of have to know that howyou got to be up to speed or
else. And I think THEO Johnsonkind of fill in that role for Bellinger
as a guy that you know,he can do it all, but he's
going to be biased towards the receivingskill set. Yeah. What I've been
disappointed with Bellinger last year was this. I thought he would take a step
forward and he seemed to take astep back. To me, now agree
that's subjective. We had this discussionon the website this week and some people

(33:22):
don't agree with me on this,and maybe so I may be wrong.
And obviously Waller was stealing his snaps, but he just you know, there
were plays in his rookie year,even with when he had the eye injury
and he missed four games, youknow, the game that the coaching staff
game plan for him and came upwith some neat plays for him, and

(33:42):
he did have an impact in somekey moments of big games in his rookie
season. I thought he'd build uponthat. And what I guess what I
was more most disappointed with, andI saw this in your game reviews when
you wrote wrote about the Giants ona week to week basis, was he
seemed to be a liability as ablocker. Yep, and a lot of
games and he came out of SanDiego State and I know that's a big

(34:04):
jump. But with a reputation ofbeing such a strong blocker and he's a
big guy. I don't think it'san attitude thing with him, you know,
I just don't get it so far. And that's where I'm you know,
I don't expect I don't need himto become a thirty forty catch guy,
but I need him to block.And if he can't block, I

(34:24):
don't know what his I don't knowwhat his role is on this team past
this year. I need to seehim. He can't be a liability when
they put him on a linebacker.He's got to be able to block that
guy. And if not, thenyou got to you got to replace him
with somebody else. And I'd hateto do that because I like the player,
but I don't. That's what stoodout to me last year. And
I don't know if you agree withme or not, but I just I

(34:45):
expected more out of him last yearthan I saw. Yeah, I feel
the same way about Danan Bellinger asI do John Michael smi' is you know,
we hear this turn a lot inscouting high floor, low ceiling.
You know, like, what thehell does that actually mean? Because we
heard all the time. That's DanielBellinger. He comes onto in the rookie
season for a rookie, he wasvery impressive what he did in twenty two

(35:06):
Andy two. I remember putting atweet out there. I don't have the
exact number of my head, butI think he caught, you know,
twenty five of twenty seven targets andit was the highest number of anyone that
he caught. I think it wascompletion percentage thrown his way was the highest
in the NFL among any Titan thatwas thrown the ball twenty five times.
And you know, yes, hebarely got the ball thrown twenty five times.
You have Travis Kelsey getting a hundredand forty targets a year, but

(35:29):
you know his Sometimes you see prospectslike this, they're just ready for the
NFL a little quicker than others,and they can create this misnomer in your
head that ooh, he's already atthis level. He might be able to
reach four or five levels above ina year or two, where really they're
kind of just peaked out at acertain point, and that's really hard to
predict and project when it comes toevaluating talent. You get that a lot

(35:52):
from these big programs like Alabama andLSU who have strength and conditioning programs that
are better than a lot of NFLprograms. So that's a drawback that you
hear some scouts talk about. It'slike, hey, did this guy already
peak as a twenty two year oldat Alabama? You normally don't see that
from a guy from San Diego State. So that's why I kind of surprised
both of us that we didn't seethis step up. And you know,

(36:14):
his blocking issues again, it's similarto THEO. It's never that he's a
bad blocker. We're not talking aboutEvan Ingram and they're trying to block a
defensive end. But you are saying, like I thought there would be more.
You know, he just doesn't sustaincontact. And I see two issues.
It's reactionary athletic ability what we talkedabout with THEO, where he just
does not react as quickly as heneeds to. And I don't think he

(36:35):
ever displaces a defender when he blocksthem, meaning he doesn't get the movement
that a guy needs to when hegets that initial strike. So those two
combinations is it kind of just setsyou up for being an average at best
blocker. Okay, there are seventight ends on this roster currently, so
they definitely have their work cut outfor them dwindling that down over the course

(36:58):
of the preseason. It'll be interestingto see how all that shakes out.
I mean, part of me isjust like, all right, Darren Waller,
here's your walking papers, Like,let's move on, buddy. We
got too many other people that competeat this position. But we'll be interesting
to see how that shakes out.One other thing that I think is kind
of interesting I want your guys takeon as a little sidebar quick is they've
been adding a bunch of big body, wide receivers. Between Alan Robinson,

(37:23):
Miles Boykin, we still got BryceFord Wheaton, who they took last year,
you know, as an undrafted freeagent. With the emphasis they put
on these small, shifty guys,what the hell are we doing signing these
big body dudes. I'd be aneric question when I look at this.

(37:45):
So we're in a time period rightnow where there's not a lot of news
going on. So one of myfavorite things to do is to start looking
at the roster and start looking atthe depth chart way too early and trying
to project who's going to make thisteam, which is always a huge mistake
because injuries come up, you don'tknow what's gonna happen in training camp so
forth. But when I look atthe wide receiver room, and this is

(38:07):
the going back to neighbors, thebenefit, the absolute benefit the drafting neighbors.
Is this for everyone Giants fan outthere who says, why are we
drafting a wide receiver when we don'thave a quarterback? Is that neighbors changed
that wide receiver room. He makesand and John Schmeilch has talked about this
on Giants dot com. He hasa multiplier effect on that entire room.

(38:30):
He makes Robinson a different player,he makes Hyatt a different player, who
makes Slaton a different player. Andthis ties into with the wide your wide
receiver question. I think most ofthe wide receiver spots on this team are
locked up. Barring an injury knockon Wood, I don't see a lot
of room. The question I havehere is this, So assume the top
four guys make it. So you'retalking about neighbors, Robinson, Slayton,

(38:55):
and Hyatt. You assume those fourmake it, and then you got two
two more spots to go. Maybemaybe three, depending on I'm sorry,
my phone's ringing, my phone's ringing. Here, you got two more spots
maybe three on on the roster.Will some of these go to special teams

(39:19):
only players. They didn't do thatlast year and they got burns. For
instance, they kept Sterling Shepherd onthe roster, and they probably should have
kept Crowder who ended up going toWashington. And we probably would have wanted
one or two one more, onemore game if we didn't have our punt
return issues that we did last year. So I think they may go with
one wide receiver like a boy Kinon as one of the spots, which

(39:40):
leads only one spot open. Sosome of these big body guys that you're
talking about, I'm not sure thereare anything more than practice squad guys,
with the exception of Alan Robinson.So Alan Robinson to me is an interesting
guy. A lot of people andI didn't really watch a lot of Pittsburgh
last year. I did see acommon minterarry from some some Pittsburgh fans that

(40:01):
said, don't he was better thanhe looked in Pittsburgh. Our offensive coordinator
last year was terrible. Our quarterbacksituation wasn't good last year. Don't don't
don't read too much into Alan Robinsonhad done this roster last year. That
being said, Alan Robinson hasn't putup big numbers in a few years now.
But I think that's a very interestingsigning. Some people are saying he's

(40:22):
not gonna make the team. Icould see him making the team and that
would be would be something. Butyou know, the Rice Ford Wheatons of
the world, they're gonna have atough time. They got this really interesting
rookie free agent. Giles, JohnJohn Giles, John Giles, he that

(40:44):
guy. That guy looks amazing,but he's got so many academic problems in
his past that you do have towonder at times, you know, are
the are the mental faculties there forhim, the process of an NFL playbook
and in the NFL game and thattype of thing. So I think there
are some guys that will make thepractice squad. But I think the real
question with the wide receiver room isis we know who the top four guys

(41:06):
are. Who do they keep thisyear to be special teams guys that's or
do they not. So I thinkthey've gotten burned in the past by not
going with special teams and that's tome, is the one to watch Or
does someone show so much in campand in the preseason, like a Giles
that they say we or a BryceFord Wheaton do they say, well,

(41:29):
we can't expose this guy to thewaiver wired and we're gonna have to hold
on to him. So I can'tanswer that question, but I think we
don't know who the top four aregoing to be. Yeah, I think
that makes a ton of sense,and it will be interesting to see how
that chakes out. I think thisis a good transition to get to the
undrafted free agents. Speaking about JohnGiles, and I mean, how is
he going to make the team witha loaded wide receiver room like we're contending

(41:49):
with here? I hear Sante isanother guy who fits the mold of that
small, shifty guy that they reallylike going after. So which one of
them are they going to retain inthe practice squad? But of the other
undrafted free agents, Eric, Isaw you were, you know, chiming
in on Casey Rogers on the board. I'm really into Johnson and Kubis,
the offensive lineman that they took.Which undrafted free agency you guys most excited

(42:13):
about. Yeah, I'll give somecolor on Casey Rodgers. That's a guy
that I was That's the one namethat really caught my attention. The other
one was the corner Alex Johnson.Those are the two guys that, especially
with what the Giants are kind ofdealing with that corner. Those are the
two spots that I kind of Ifeel a little shaky about on defense,
just an interior pass thrusher and thenoutside corner. And Rogers is the guy

(42:37):
that stands out the most of mesix four, two ninety four seven years
in college. He's going to turntwenty six in December, so this is
like a this is an older prospect, but part of the reason why the
age comes into play. He wasa big time lacrosse player in high school.
I believe he had several D onescholarships. Syracuse included a big time
lacrosse program. So you're talking abouta guy that was not just a decent

(42:58):
D one lacrosse player. He wasa flight across recruit ends up at Oregon.
His athletic testing for two hundred andninety plus pounds among defensive tackles is
in the top one percent, andwhen you watch him play, you say
why isn't this guy better? Whyisn't he producing more? I've seen a
lot of Oregon football over the pastthree to four years, partially because of

(43:19):
the two guys that are on thedefensive front from that program right now,
and Rogers is always a guy thatstood out. He always jumped off the
screen just based on his movement tradesalone, the foot quickness, the balance,
the ability to adjust. But whenyou really did a deep dive on
him, you just said, like, why doesn't he produce more? And
there's a lot of pad level issuesand hand usage issues, and he doesn't
really have a big power game.But when you look at the Giants defensive

(43:44):
tackle room, there's a big needfor another pass rusher inside. There was
a point in the draft where Iwas really kind of okay, McKay wingo,
he's the last of these three techniquesthat this was a really deep draft
for three techs. And again Iwant to give some grace to the new
defensive if he might not have beena scheme fit, they might have a
couple other things that need to address, and it looks like they really want

(44:05):
size. I mean that Jordan Phillipssigning surprised me because to me. He
was a very similar profile to JordanRiley and DJ Davidson. Now, am
I upset by getting a big bruiserinside on a defense that couldn't stop Unnosebley
when it came to the running gamelast year. Absolutely not. I like
it. I like him and decksinside. So I'm not looking down the
signing, but I look at itsaying where is the pass rush help going

(44:30):
to be? God forbid? DexterLawrence goes down. Who is you're into
your pass rush? The answer isnobody. I mean you combine those numbers
of Riley, Davidson, and Phillips. I think they combined had a four
percent pressure rate last year, whichis just basically saying these guys are not
going to do anything against the past. That worries me. It bothers me
a little bit too. I talkedabout this in January. You guys know

(44:52):
how I feel about mock drafts,but I did one in January and I
gave the Giants Layatu Latu. Idon't know if you remember that at six
overall passing on Drake May and youknow, you know that creates a lot.
But my my rational wasn't even aboutthe player. It was more about
this team needs an identity bad andthis would be pre Brian Burns trade.
So they did address that position viathe trade for Brian Burns after that,

(45:16):
but I want more and more passrushers. I think that's the way to
keep this team competitive while they tryto figure out what the hell they're going
to do at quarterback is have adominant area of your football team that opposing
teams are a little afraid of.And the Giants right now, they have
good pass rushers, but there's nothingspecial about the unit overall. Sure,

(45:37):
you could put their top three maybein like that top three of Burns,
Cavon and Dexter. You could saythat's that top three is maybe a top
seven, top eight, top threein the NFL. All right, cool,
But what where's the depth? Andwe know here in Giants Land like
you got, you're never gonna haveenough pass rushing ever, because if one
of these guys goes down and AzizoJualai doesn't step up or stay in the

(45:58):
field. I just don't like thelack of options. And that's where I
think Casey Rodgers can stand out ifthey can figure something out into some of
his techniques using that athletic ability that'sgoing to stand out on the field compared
to these guys. He's a guyI could see could sneak onto the back
end of that roster. Yeah.One of the things that I'm glad say
just mentioned is this one of thethings that drove me nuts leading up,

(46:21):
oh and after the draft as welltoo, leading up to and after the
draft, where the number of Giantsfans that were basically saying trade cave on
thibodeaual to move up for the quarterbackand that would have been you know,
subtract him from the defense doesn't makeany sense to me because it's I just
said, you're trying to create anidentity, at least on defense, and

(46:43):
if you subtract him, then theadvantage of getting Brian Burns in the offseason
you just erase that. It's anet neutral there. So I just I
didn't that doesn't make any sense tome, and I do I do agree
with Cion the names he mentioned,and I'll throw this out there is follow
the money. Who did they givethe guaranteed bonuses to the guaranteed money?

(47:04):
I should say too in the Ud f as and it was a two
offensive lineman who they seem to havesomewhat similar profiles in this, and that
they need to get bigger and strongerand more powerful. You know, the
reports I've seen on all of themas they tested well athletically and that there's

(47:27):
their tools to work with. Butthey're there. As Sis mentioned earlier,
did they get movement at the pointof attack? And these guys you know,
didn't do that at that level,And so they've got they've got the
things that you can't teach. Theathleticism. Kubis is supposedly, you know,
a bit of a bulldog himself.Whether or not they can play at

(47:49):
the NFL level physically remains to beseen. But those are the kinds of
guys you get, as ud fAs, I'd rather get the athlete that
you might be able to add onthose strength in the in the in the
weight, then get the other guywho you never will be able to athletically
play at that level and and youknow he's just wasting a roster spot at
that point. I will also saythis with Alex Jones, the little tape

(48:09):
that I've seen on him, itlooks like to me, in almost every
snap I saw, he was playingnickel corner if he wasn't playing nickel corner,
it was something very similar to that. I think that's that has been
a sore spot for the Giants fora while, and if you've read Size
game reviews for years, it's it'salso been He's also picked up on it.

(48:32):
I think the Giants have been tryingto address this position for years with
going back to Aaron Robinson with CordellFlottuh, who am I forgetting here?
Now? Their latest draft Drew,Drew Phillips, Darnay Holmes is in that
picture. I think they that positionhas been such a a tough spot for

(48:52):
them, and I think it figures, and I think Science talked about this
another podcast. I think that figuresinto their poor run defense. I think
that I think one of the thingsthat teams are doing, and if I
didn't say this, somebody else did, and I agree with it, is
the teams are targeting nickel corners intheir running game. And Andrew Phillips has

(49:12):
a mistackle issue, but he doesn'thave an issue in terms of physicality.
And I think you know, DexterLawrence isn't the problem in run defense.
A'shawn Robinson last year wasn't the problemin run defense. When I looked at
the team, it was linebackers missingtackles, are not being in the gap,
and it was defensive backs. Thesame thing with defensive backs, particularly

(49:32):
inside inside the interior guys, andI think that figures into that. So
but Alex Johnson, I think hasa legit shot in Casey Rodgers or the
tryout player who's very small. Myman, it's small. Maybe maybe sy
can talk about Elijah Chapman a littlebit. Normally I would completely discount him,

(49:53):
but since our defensive line coach isour defensive line coach is the guy
who he is and has coached similarplayers in with with the Vikings, I
wouldn't completely discount him as well either. But I think the Giants have a
lot of big bodies inside. There'sa glaring need for a guy who can

(50:14):
pressure the passer. He doesn't evenhave to get the sacks, but just
just uh you know, Dexter isgonna get get double teamed. You know,
you know, uh Burns and KTand Thibodeaux are gonna get are going
to cause havoc on the outside.You need that fourth guy to at least
get the attention of the guard insideand that's there's a glaring need right there.

(50:37):
And so I do think there thereis a spot for for either.
You know, again the practice squadobviously, but you know, you look
at the depth chart at the defensivetackle and you know one of these guys
could make it. Casey Rodgers hasa really good shot if if he can
flash enough in the preseason to makeit. Yeah. Elijah Chapman five eleven,

(50:59):
two seventy eight. No, Ithink I put this out on someone
asked me about it. I thinkI couldn't get to a couple of these
guys. But that is you cancount on one hand how many guys have
played defensive tackle on that SAT.So, just if you're a metrics guy
and analytics guy even somewhat, ifyou want to use any sort of historical
trend, what are the odds ofthis guy coming on? I remember he
didn't get signed until this past week, so nobody in the league wanted to

(51:21):
sign him to a second Drives afree agent. So and trust me,
I love the story and I lovethe player. I mean, my game
notes on Chapman are filled with justfun player to watch, high effort,
energetic. I love guys that playlow to the ground, play under the
pass, but are also strong enoughto hold their own and he is strong
enough, but he's still i mean, two hundred and seventy eight pounds,

(51:42):
two hundred seventy eight pounds. Buthe's a guy that's just gonna be fun
to watch and let's see and youknow, for you know it, maybe
he'll put this on his on hisphone on repeat that that Dave Syrton from
our last thinks you won't make it, because that's the kind of that's the
kind I'm kidding there by the way, that's the kind of attitude that someone
like that needs to play with tomake it, because it's against all odds

(52:05):
that he's going to be a player. But it seems like the coaching staff
kind of has a little kind ofinside track, like they they're kind of
rooting for him as well, justbased on some of the words that have
been said about him. And againyou go watch just go YouTube any sim
defense watch him. I think hewas number eleven if I remember correctly.
Just a fun, really respectful playerto watch because he was always the smallest

(52:28):
guy in the field, even atthe college level, and he's still just
had a lot of glimpses of thatat Oliver type dominance. Not nearly the
kind of player that he was,but that kind of like flow to his
game. And it's fun to watch. So yeah, it's it's gonna be
a good a good battle to watch. There's a lot of defensive tackles in
this group that This is one thingabout this front office. Eric tough me

(52:50):
if I'm wrong. The competition onthis roster right now to make the team
is more legitimate and more credible thanI've seen in recent memory. That's one
thing they've done a good job of. Yeah, I think that's correct.
I will I will proface my remarkswith this, is that every May I
feel this why you can't be optimisticNow, I don't know when you can

(53:15):
be optimistic. And that's that.That's I I throw that out there because
I'm always like that every year inMay. And I mean, to me,
the draft is like Christmas. It'sit's Christmas without the stress of having
define gifts for your children and yourand your significant other and without you know,
in your when you reach middle ageyou get the worst Christmas gifts anyways.

(53:37):
But so when I get when theydraft neighbors in the first round.
I feel like it's Christmas for me. So I feel but I that's what
I'm addressing what you just said.Say, when I look at the roster
like I did this week, II do feel like that. I feel
like the wide receiver room is stronger. I feel like the tight end room
is stronger. The big question isthe offensive line. So that's that's a

(53:58):
huge question. But the guys thatthey brought in had success in other places,
so you think that, jeez,if they can just be average.
If we're at the point with Giantsfans, if we could just get average
offensive line players, I think wewould be happy at this point. Absolutely.
But so the offensive line on paperlooks better. The defense, I

(54:21):
mean the outside linebackers. Obviously,with Burns coming in, now they have
two threats on the outside. Weknow we have. They have the best
defensive linemen in the interior with withDexter Lawrence. Now the safety is interesting
because there's been a turnover there,so we'll have to see what's going to
happen there. In corner is interesting. I think that's why they hit the
secondary heavy in the draft. ButI do it's a very young teams that

(54:45):
was that's I hope. One thingGiants fans do recognize is is if you
look at this team positioned by position, there are very very few people on
this team over thirty. It's avery very young team. And I think
the average age on this team nowis we're around twenty five, maybe lower
than that. Young teams generally loseuntil they learn unless that great leadership.

(55:12):
So I just I just I throwthat out there. And of course,
the big and we haven't talked aboutthe big issue is what are they going
to get out of Daniel Jones orDrew Locke this year. That's that's where
we're at right now. And whenDave and I were on earlier in the
pre draft process, we talked aboutdo they get the quarterback now or do
they improve the roster and get thequarterback later. And they've obviously either out

(55:36):
of you know, their deliberate thoughtprocess or just the way the cards fell,
they decided to get the roster stronger. Now. They couldn't get may
whether they tried to get them ornot, but they couldn't get made.
So they made the roster stronger.Now they got to get the quarterback.
So the the issue with Jones itsays they could go number of different ways.

(55:57):
He could get hurt again, hecould look just as bad as he
did in his brief time last year. And there's legitimate there's legitimate reasons to
say he wasn't given a fair shotlast year because of the state of the
offensive line and the surrounding talent.Barkley was hurting all that that's been beaten
to death. But he could playat a similar poor level. He could

(56:17):
play at a twenty twenty two level, or he could get better. We
just don't know which of those thingsare going to happen. And that to
me, I think, I thinkthe roster looks pretty good, except we'd
have this huge, giant question markat the quarterback position. That's where I'm
at right now, yep. AndI think that does factor into something else

(56:37):
we talked about on our last show, Eric of Our Day Ball and shown
or Shane on the hot seat.Yeah, you know, because that's where
do they have the leash to goget a guy next year and then that
builds in two to three more yearsadditionally for them to develop that quarterback since
they do have a good nucleus withthe team, Like you're saying, young
young patch right now, So doyou guys think that they're on the hot

(57:00):
see this is like a make orbreak year for them, or are they
going to have more of a leashto grow and develop this organization beyond whatever
happens at the quarterback position this year. Year three of a regime is always
big, especially when you have twopolar opposite results. Right twenty twenty two,
they exceed expectations, very soft schedule, they go nine to seven to

(57:22):
one, and then they turn aroundthe next year a little bit tougher a
schedule. They end up six andeleven. They go from fifteenth and scoring
to thirtieth, They go from eighteenthin total yards to twenty ninth. I
mean we're not talking about taking astep backwards. They took multiple steps backwards.
And last year was about as badas situation as you can get from

(57:43):
the get go, with the injuriesalong the offensive line, the multiple injuries
to Daniel Jones. But at somepoint the excuses have to stop and you
can say they were thrown a reallykind of they got the short end of
the stick last year, but youcould also say they didn't respond at a
very high level, And to me, that's what coaching does. That's what
Mike Tomlin has done at such ahigh level with Pittsburgh. I don't think

(58:06):
he's the best coach in the NFL, but I think he knows how to
stop the bleeding and that's one thingthat we didn't see last year. So
do I think these guys are like, hey, playoffs are bus Absolutely not.
And if they repeat what they didlast year, if they're anywhere in
that six and eleven to eight andnine range, I think you consider it
a step forward. You let themtry to recalibrate that quarterback position. But

(58:28):
if they take another step backwards,like if this gets ugly again and they
end up with two three, fourwins, I would absolutely say they're on
the hot seat because at some pointit's not just about playoffs in Super Bowls,
right. I know that's like theeasy answer, but you have to
show the ability to adjust to adversity. And that goes for players, coaches,

(58:51):
and front office. And you know, right now, it's easy to
not criticize a front office and coachingstaff because there are no games being played
on Sundays. Oh, they dida good job in the draft. Oh
they put a nice offensive line togethervia free agency. Oh, they stop
some bleeding on the defensive side ofthe ball with Brian Burns. It all
looks good at this point. Butremember, you know everyone wins in the

(59:13):
offseason essentially, right It's you know, you go around thirty two teams,
there's thirty two playoff teams. Rightnow, you know, we've excelled in
the off season, and if theresults are not there, especially with some
of these young guys that need totake a step up, you can start
to question the decision making an abilityto adjust to their mistakes. I mean,

(59:34):
I'm still just so thrown off bywhat has happened at quarterback. You
know, they declined Daniel Jones option, then they signed to a contract.
Now they're potentially trading up for aquarterback. You know, in some cases,
whether we agree with this or not, you get one shot at quarterback.
And to me, they just kindof keep sea song back and forth.

(59:55):
And I'll tell you what, Idon't know what to do at quarterback.
That's why I want a JJ McCarthyat six overall, because at least
you have a solution. But hey, if they hit meet your grade,
I understand that. I'm totally onboard with It's just weird to me that
you would potentially trade up for DrakeMay if that report is true. But
you wouldn't just sit tight and JJMcCarty and and take JJ McCarthy and not

(01:00:19):
have to sell a future first roundpick. Is they're really that big of
a gap between those two. Imean to me, you can build a
great roster, but if you don'tfigure out quarterback, your job's going to
be out the door in no time. So my answer is no, they're
not on the hot seat unless thisgets really really ugly. Again, this
is such a complicated question on manydifferent fronts, and I'm going to try

(01:00:43):
to keep it, try to keepit brief, right, you go in
a lot of different ways. Theproblem is this is they have, as
I've talked about on the website before, they've tripled down on Daniel Jones.
So unless Drew Lock, unless DanielJones reinvents himself again, unless he reverts

(01:01:05):
back to twenty twenty two form orbetter and stays healthy, or unless Drew
Locke or Tommy DeVito. I alwayswant to say Danny, but Tommy DeVito
save save the situation. This couldturn ugly, and it could get really
ugly if McCarthy, who's on aloaded offensive team right now in Minnesota with

(01:01:27):
a great coaching staff for him.He starts looking great, and the Giants
are you know, they're out ofthe playoff picture again by Halloween. If
the Giant you know, if DanielJones is hurt again or struggling, and
McCarthy is is in you know,his beat, meeting out Sam Darnold and

(01:01:47):
you know he doesn't have to lightthe world on fire, just looks competent.
Then this starts looking this could thiscould get ugly in this sense,
Shane, this is Shane's roster atthis point. I mean, we're in
a third year right now. Youcan't start gets to a point where you
say it Gettleman wasn't the problem anymore. You have to say, you know,
we own we own this roster.The problem for Brian Dabo is this

(01:02:10):
is he legitimately won Coach of theYear in twenty twenty two. He made
some really bizarre decisions in twenty twentythree. And I'm not talking about in
game decisions. I'm just just weird, weird thing. I mean, I
don't think the team was ready forthe start of the season, and I
think it was clear with the Dallasloss, and you know, going into

(01:02:32):
San Francisco in a short week istough in any situation. But they just
didn't look ready. They delayed onthe offensive line, settling down on the
offensive line, and I think thatshowed they had a very soft camp.
They seem you know, they playedthe starters one preseason series. They look
great, but that was all theyplayed, and I don't think they were

(01:02:52):
ready. So he's got to showme the team's ready at the start of
this season, because if the rumorare true with this what the schedule is
going to look like so far,it's not a real tough start to the
schedule, So they better you know, in the next first month, be
around five hundred or it could itcould get ugly fast. I like them,
I want I'm rooting for them.I don't want to see them fail.

(01:03:15):
I get this, I get theI get the feeling of competency with
them that I didn't get with Gettleman. I get a feeling of competency that
I didn't get with Joe Judge.But said just talked about it. You
know, it's a third season.And the thing that's interesting is this is
if they had reset a quarterback too. Not everyone agrees with this, but

(01:03:37):
I firmly believe this. It wouldhave given them more of a leash.
So if you have a rookie quarterback, you can say we're we're trying,
we're rebuilding this, give us alittle bit, give us. You know,
this isn't going to get turned aroundovernight. But now they've taken that
away, and so there's one lessexcuse if it's a really ugly start.

(01:03:59):
So what it comes down to thisis this is and this is gonna be
the most annoying part of the season. I dread this part of the football
season is Giants fans are going totake the weekly temperature of Pennix, McCarthy
and Nicks and they're gonna on agame by game basis, kind of like
what they did with Cadarius Tony lastyear and say, oh look, Cardarius

(01:04:23):
Tony did great. There is Tonystunk. We're gonna see that times three
every week. It's gonna be soannoying, but that's that's the world we're
in right now. And they're goingto be compared to Daniel Jones and how
this team is going to be doing. I hope they're here next year,
and this was a silly conversation toeven have. But they certainly have not

(01:04:45):
made it easy on themselves in onesense is by not by sticking with the
essentially the same quarterback room except swappingout Taylor for for Locke. This is
this, This is gonna be interestingto watch, definitely will be. And
I'm still pissed that we passed upon Joe Milton in the sixth round and
the Patriots double I had to doit, so I had to do it

(01:05:09):
just one one knife in the oldside there, because that was just I
mean, from the top of therooftops, I was screaming. But both
one question. I was looking atthe last two quarterback drafts before this year,
and obviously the twenty twenty two draftwas a disaster quarterback wise. I
mean, it looks like proc partiesthe past quarterback to come out of that

(01:05:30):
draft, right, Do I havethis right? Was Perty twenty twenty two?
Do I have this right? Hewas twenty twenty two? Yes?
Yes, So it looks like Purtywas the best quarterback out of that draft
unless I missed somebody. So theargument on the website has been Shane should
have brought in another quarterback while he'sbeen here. So he's been here in

(01:05:51):
twenty twenty two since twenty twenty two. Twenty twenty two looked like looks like
a disaster QB draft on paper tome. Twenty three the three guys went
early. We remember the Giants wentto the playoffs, so they're picking,
and they're picking what was it twentyone after the twenty five so and then

(01:06:11):
Levis went early in the second round. So unless you're looking at somebody like
Hooker, I'm not sure where youget your quarterback even last year. I
mean, so, I guess myquestion is this is the argument was all
right, you didn't get your quarterbackthis year, but you should have gotten
your quarterback before this year. AndI'm looking at them, I'm looking at
the landscape. And then this iswhy I'm asking Cy and Date both of

(01:06:32):
you, because you follow this moreto me? Is it me? Or
is it just tough to find?I mean, this doesn't sound really dumb.
It's just really tough to find aquarterback. I look at the if
you don't have a top pick,it looks like unless you get lucky rolling
the dice later in the draft.You know, so I one of the
things I say to people, Ilike to say, all right, what

(01:06:54):
would you have done? And alot of times they can't come back and
say what they would have done.And Sid just said earlier, I hate
where we are with the quarterback situation, but I'm wondering what could we have
done other than taking mcarth Theater,a Pennix or a Knicks at six.
I don't know what the other optionwould have been right now. Yeah,
And that circles back to should youhave signed Daniel Jones to that big time
contract? And I remember that wasreally highly debated too, And I'll be

(01:07:18):
honest with you, I remember makinga long post about what I think he
could have been worth on that market. I was all about resigning him.
I thought the contract was very richand there's economics you can get out of
this contract out of that, andleading up until this year, I didn't
have a solution. It was myfeel was this. I just felt that
Daniel Jones was not the answer,right, So you know, yes,

(01:07:42):
I'd say you kicked the can downthe road and maybe even let him test
free agency last year, or thesmartest move would have been to franchise him
so that it was only a oneyear commitment, and then that allows you
to have a quarterback for this upcomingseason, but you're not long term committed.
I strongly believe that the fact theydidn't take a quarterback this year was

(01:08:02):
partially because of the economics of themeaning if you brought one of the reasons
or advantage of drafting a quarterback iswhat it's the contract you lose out on
year one contract advantage because no matterwhat, you're paying Daniel Jones forty mil
this year, so there is noeconomic advantage to a rookie quarterback. Next
year, you can cut him,but he's still going to be twenty eight

(01:08:23):
mil against the cap. So nowyou're two years into a rookie contract that
does not give the team an economicadvantage. I mean, that's everyone's dream
come true, right Houston Texans,right now, San Francisco, you have
a guy on a rookie quarterback contractfor multiple years and you could just buy
everything else that you want for twothree years. You hope it works out
right, So that's in it.That's the reason why you almost feel like

(01:08:46):
that decision, that contract, itdid handicap. It did kind of hold
the Giants back from going after quarterback. I don't know. I'm not in
the building. I don't know ifthat's why, but it is definitely an
economic with the amount of economic decisionmaking that's in the NFL, now,
I think that's part of it.Do you think, oh, I'm sorry,
now go for it. Do youthink it's possible that the Giants knew

(01:09:11):
or made the decision they were goingto stick with Jones one more year and
everything else has been been a prexercise. And I'm not saying do you
think that happened, but do youthink it's possible? In other words,
do you say, do you thinkthat there was a discussion in MetLife or
a Quest Diagnostics where they said,we're going to get a shit storm if

(01:09:33):
we don't if we come out andsay Daniel Jones is our guy, and
we don't put on a show here, a dog and pony show that we're
trying to get another quarterback and wewere not completely sold on Jones ourselves,
but we're stuck with him for anotheryear, and we at least got to
make it look like we're trying toget our guy. I'm not saying that's
what happened, but do you thinkthat there's a possibility that happened. Yeah,

(01:09:57):
I do. Subconsciously. I thinkthat's part of it. You know,
I think that's exactly what happened.Yeah, football is it's an ego
business as well. You know,all the seesaw back and forth. I
strongly think the Giants said, hey, we're probably gonna have to punt on
quarterback until next year. I don'tknow if the solution is. I know
Dak Prescott's Dak Prescott's name is goingto be thrown out there along with Bill
Belichick, right, But I meanto me, I don't think that's the

(01:10:20):
route you take either. It's justthe economics behind that just don't make sense.
But you know, it's advanced scoutingis a real thing. You know,
the Giants probably have a stronger fieldthan I do on what the quarterback
class will be next year. Gunto my head, I think you're gonna
have two guys that are top tenworthy. But are the Giants going to
be in the top ten? Thiswas a big reason why. If there

(01:10:42):
was one thing I was pounding thetable for, it was a trade back
out of six And it does soundlike they had an offer from the Colts
to come up to six, whichmy guess was for neighbors that probably would
have netted them a future first roundpick. And I know that sound.
And then yeah, you lose outon that superstar wide receiver, but they
could have still had the other kidfrom Shoe, Brian Thomas, who I
liked a lot, and I reallythought it would have been a smart decision

(01:11:04):
to get capital in next year's class. And I don't expect everyone to know
this, but next year is theend of the COVID you're gonna have.
The next year's class is gonna beloaded, and going into next year's class
with an extra two to three picks, especially at a first round pick,
if you want to get up andget that quarterback. I just would have
liked a few more bullets in thegun to make that big, aggressive,

(01:11:26):
Eli Manning caliber trade next year.And it also it kind of could have
lengthened the life of this front officeand coaching staff. So to answer your
question, Eric, yeah, Ido think part of it was a pr
type situation slash. Hey, we'realso getting a very good wide receiver that's
going to help our team next year. But I don't think this team,
I don't think they know what they'redoing at quarterback. To be honest with

(01:11:47):
you, I don't think they knowwhat the solution is yet, and that's
okay. I think when you forcea solution aka the contract given to Daniel
Jones, that's when you start toput yourself on what we call quarterback.
Hell yeah, I know. Kavewas a big fan of trading back when
we have ye yeah, yeah no, And I was a big fan of
punting on quarterback too. I thinkit would have been so irresponsible to draft

(01:12:11):
a quarterback in the first round thisyear because of the financial implications with Daniel
Jones and what's the benefit you're gettingout of it? I mean talk about
it would have been a miserable yearfor him as well. Like the second
was an interception, the entire stadiumis going to turn on exactly. I
mean even just the media questions hewould have had to contend with in the
preseason alone, I mean even priorto the preseason, any press conference he

(01:12:32):
ever sits down at it would havebeen a disaster. And I think that's
why they avoided quarterback entirely. Ithink quarterback is all about timing in this
league, and it's hard to judgethe timing. But when you have,
like SI said, financial implications anddraft capital allocation with a quarterback like Daniel
Jones he took in the first round, you paid the big money all that
kind of stuff, it's it's hardto avoid that. And you know,

(01:12:58):
I like the Patriots apro which Imean, in what world did people think
that Drake May was going to goto the Patriots and then they were going
to take another quarterback in the sixthround? You know? But I think
when you look at a lot offolks like Tom Brady brock perty that can
be successful and if nothing else,you have somebody that you could load up

(01:13:19):
in a trade right to try toget more draft picks for a quarterback needy
team that's super desperate and wants totake a chance on somebody who looked pretty
good in the preseason game here orthere. So I would rather see us
go after somebody late on Day threeand try to be a developmentalal guy and

(01:13:40):
see how that shakes out until thereis a synergy of this is the perfect
time, this is the perfect place, where the right spot, the inflection
point of where we were when wegot Eli Manning of we need a quarterback,
he is perfect. He will bethe franchise guy. Because everybody talking
about, oh, we were tryingto trade up for Drake May, trade
up. Drake May was the guyin all the stuff I know about scouting.

(01:14:03):
You give up whatever the hell youhave to give up to go get
your guy because he is feasibly goingto be your guy for at least the
next decade. So what difference doesit make if you have to throw in
another first round pick or not.It doesn't because he is the face of
your franchise. So them not doingthat and then passing on JJ McCarthy.
I don't think quarterback was ever inthe conversation for them this year, and

(01:14:24):
it wouldn't have made sense for themto take quarterback as far as I was
consumered. Which supports your argument too, is there wasn't a lot of and
we have to get off at Iknow we're both I know size got to
go at some point, and Iknow you had to cut off which national
pundits, national draft people that followfollow the draft and follow the NFL who

(01:14:45):
are not Giants fans. When talkingabout the Giants brought up the same issue
in this sense. They said,if you get the quarterback on if you
get May and you give up thosepicks, he's not gonna have much around
him, and he's gonna he's gonnastruggle because the teams, the team around
him is not going to be good. But this this it's it's one of

(01:15:06):
these chicken and egg deals. Andand I think Cy hit hit a nail
on the head earlier when he whenhe talked about this is the new model
in the NFL seems to be tryto get your team right while you're on
the rookie deal, while while youhave a QB on the rookie deal.
But how do you that's a toughtight rope to walk. To me,

(01:15:27):
First of all, you've got tothere's gotta be a QB there at the
right moment. And then how manyquarterbacks Patrick Mahomes a side come into the
league and are able to compete fora Super Bowl title in their second or
third year. That's a tough thatthat. I mean, you you can
look at the Texans situation, youcan look at Cincinnati and say it can

(01:15:48):
be done. But boy, that'sa tough tightrope. And I guess that's
where the Giants are right now,is they've got their getting their team in
order, and as SI just said, the next challenge is where the heck
do you get that quarterback? Andas he said, and you you've pointed
out maybe it would have been betterto trade back and get the AMMO for

(01:16:08):
the for the following draft. Butthen the flying that ointment is the people
who say that draft. Next year'sdraft isn't strong at quarterback. Yeah,
it won't be a strong yeah.So I, like cy, I don't
know what they're going to do.I don't I could see Prescott coming here,
but I saw some Dallas Cowboy fansstart laughing about that. He said,

(01:16:30):
great, the Giants are going togo from overpaying one quarterback to going
overpaying another quarterback. That that's greatfor us. So in course I think
that a lot of Dallas fans arerunning there. Their patients was with Dak
is running out too. So Idon't know what they're going to do next
year. The best thing in theworld, and it's it's a Pine a
Sky deal. Is Daniel Jones provesus all wrong? Yea, and and

(01:16:57):
we'll all be happy. I'll behappy. But was just wrong or somehow.
Drew Locke has a career of renaissance, and they you know, the
weirdest thing would be is if theveto comes out comes on and you know,
he's the next Kurt Warner or somethinglike that. But that's where they're
at right now, is they're atThey're they're basically looking for a prayer right
now. Yeah, So I meanposition a few years ago, would you

(01:17:19):
have said Jared Gross can get onehundred and seventy guaranteed. A few years
ago we said Thinker Mayfield is goingto get ninety million guaranteed. Gino Smith,
you know, it sounds doomsday whenwe talk Giants quarterback situation, and
rightfully so. But you know,if you follow this game long enough,
the one thing you can guarantee isthat you guarantee you don't know what's going

(01:17:40):
to happen, and you have tolet these things play out. Daniel Jones,
you know, first round caliber talent, you know, and has flashed
and spurts since twenty nineteen. Wejust have not seen consistency and now there's
a health issue. But that's that'swhat we're rolling with this year. And
once you get over the fact thatyou don't have a new shiny toyot quarterback
that's what you're going to have toroot for, and that would be best

(01:18:00):
case scenario that the Giants have thequarterback on this roster. We can say,
hey, we don't think that's thecase, but you can't say that
it's not possible. And I thinkthat's one thing that can hopefully help some
of these Giants fans sleep at night. But you never know who's going to
shake free in the trade market,veteran trade market. We've seen a lot
of that action in recent years hasn'treally worked out. Deshaun Watson, Russell

(01:18:21):
Wilson, Aaron Rodgers. But youknow, they're the Giants do have a
nucleus, a franchise left tackle andall Pro defensive tackles, some really interesting
talent at wide receiver that if you'rea veteran quarterback that requests a trade or
shakes free, this is a prettyand you're in New York, in that
New York market, it's a prettyattractive situation that, you know, especially

(01:18:44):
if some of these young guys takethat step up. So let's not assume
that everything's over and we're screwed,But that's what the giantsre gonna be rolling
with, and that's what everyone's gonnahave to hope for. Well, the
other thing too is they've got widereceivers in a running back now that if
you throw a five yard pass tothem, they could break an eighty yard
touchdown. You know, you getneighbors a five yard pass and he could
be gone, Hyatt to be gone. Uh Wandell Robinson hasn't had those big

(01:19:05):
explosive plays yet, but he's certainlycapable of doing that. Even Tracy,
even though he's not a speedster,he's you know, they're there. He's
the kind of guy that can creatematchup problems. So so, piggybacking what
Sija said, it's a pretty decentsituation for a quarterback. So and the
receivers could you know, people willargue win is a situation where the receivers

(01:19:27):
ever make the quarterback look better.Well, you can make the argument that
Eli Manning looked better, had hisbest years when he had Hickeem Knicks and
Victor Cruz at wide receiver. Soso, I do think it's interrelated to
a certain extent. I will notcompletely discount Daniel Jones. When I've brought
this up on the website, peoplestart yelling at me and saying I thought
you were on our side Like this, they've got to someone's going to be

(01:19:53):
a quarterback on his team. Andand again I wouldn't discount it's it's even
Drew Locke at this point. Tobe honest with you, I wouldn't come
you know, I'm not a bigDrew lock guy. But he did.
He did play well in the Philadelphiagame last year, and then some of
the other spot duties and the lightcould pop on for him too. So
we'll see what happens. As anItalian from New Jersey, I would love

(01:20:15):
Tommy Cullitz to come back full vengeanceand take everything over, but I know
we're a time guys. Really appreciateyou both making the time to come on
here and chat through this. Reallyexcited to see how everything unfolds this,
you know, preseason, the regularseason, and then I'm sure we'll all
be back here again, you know, leading up to the draft next year
and hopefully we have a quarterback solution. If we don't, then I'm sure

(01:20:38):
it's gonna be the talk of thetown for months and months and months leading
up to the next draft in GreenBay. So really appreciate you guys making
the time. Really appreciate all ofour listeners tuning in and we'll have you
all back on our next Scouts onour podcast

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