Scout's Honor podcast 2023, Ep. 5 with Ourlad's David Syversten

Dave Del Col is joined once again by Dave Syvertsen from Ourlads Scouting Service. They take a deep dive into options for the Giants on days 1 and 2. Positions that are a priority, potential targets and trades. Everything you want to know heading into the draft less than a week away.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This is the Scouts on our podcastWelcome back to another edition of The Scouts
on our Podcasts. We are pleasedto be joined once again by Dave Cybertson
from our Lads, frequent guests ofthe show Back in a day with Dave
T and we're thrilled to have himback here once again this year to talk

(00:21):
a bit about the draft side.Welcome back. Yeah, what's up,
Dave? Has it been a yearalready? I mean, what can't believe
it? Dude. It seems likeit just goes so fast. Some of
these days and nights of breaking guysdown while trying to you know, brings
a three year old at the sametime. The days feel like years,
but sometimes the year feels like aday. So it's it's awesome to be
back on honor, to be onwith you once again. I can't wait

(00:44):
to get going. Appreciate it,man. I know you're super busy,
so thank you for making the timefor us over here. But I play
here we'll jump right into it.So. You know, one of the
things that I've been hearing a bitmore about as of late is how this
year's draft doesn't necessarily stack up interms of like the depth of quality talent.

(01:06):
There's not as many blue chip prospectsthis year. When I end up
throwing darts on Day three, howdo you kind of look at this crop
in this class by comparison to likethe last couple of years. Do you
think it's as strong as the lastcouple of years or is it as weak
as some of the pun ins aresaying. I mean, I'll tell you
what, I think. There's alot of good players in this draft,

(01:27):
and you know that that's kind ofwhere I end that thought process. I
mean it's really tough too. Imean I use my own personal grading process
the same way every single year,So yes, I can insert my grades
into past years and kind of seeis one class more top heavy than the
other? Are certain positions better thanthe other? But I really I don't

(01:49):
see anything notable difference wise. Ithink it's just as deep. I think
you're going to see a lot ofgreat talent round three, four, five,
just like we do every year.And I will say a microcosm of
this draft class, though, overall, is found that quarterback. Right,
And what I say, what Imean by that is what I'm about to
say about the quarterbacks. You canapply to a lot of the top players

(02:13):
at other positions, and it's thefact that they're good players, very worthy
of being first round picks, thosetop five quarterbacks, but there's something missing,
significant or a significant question mark withall of them, and it really
prevents you from wanting to put allof your chips in the middle of the
table for that guy. So quarterbacks, again, it's a little bit different

(02:37):
process, a little bit more indepth. Right, Whenever I write reports
for a quarterback, they almost endup three times as long as other positions
just because of how detailed they needto be. But when the takeaway I
had from those quarterbacks was you wishthat they just weren't missing this one component
and if they were, if theydid have that component, you put them

(02:58):
into the elite tier. Right,the kind of quarterback that you only see
every couple of years, and thefact that there's five of those situations,
it kind of carries over to therest of the class, even though they're
not related to each other. Scronsky, for example, right, my number
one tackle on the board, buthe's got, you know, arm length
that you just don't see in theNFL at that position. You just don't
see it. So that's a significantquestion mark. I kept them at tackle.

(03:22):
He's still my number one offensive linemanin the entire class, but there's
that big question mark. So that'sone thing I could see that, you
know, if someone wants to labelthis class a little weaker, not as
good as what we've been seeing inthe past, I think it stems from
that idea that a lot of thesetop guys, quote top guys are just
missing one component, one ingredient tothe recipe. So off the back of

(03:46):
that, in the vein of thequarterbacks, how many quarterbacks do you think
are actually gonna go on Night one? Because I mean there's you know,
three to four viable candidates so tospeak, based off of like all the
mock drafts that are out there.But I could certainly see, you know,
some of those folks sliding into thesecond round. I mean, if
Jalen Hurt's gonna be had in thesecond round, I don't see why some

(04:08):
of these other folks can. Sowhat do you think on like the quarterback
proposition this year, and like howmany of them are actually going to go?
Because I think historically it's like twoto three max in a first round
each year, But yep. Sothis is what I think about the quarterback
class. P J. Shroud,Bryce Young, They're they're bona fide first
round quarterbacks in my eyes, noquestion about it. When I get to

(04:29):
the number three, four, five, that's where I start to have questions
of whether or not these guys arefirst round caliber quarterbacks. Right Anthony Richardson,
Will Levis, Hendon Hooker, Ihave questions personally, I have Levis
and Hooker. They're both graded tome as Round two picks. I believe,
however, they're gonna go in roundin round one, I think we're
gonna see five quarterbacks go in thefirst round. I think it's going to

(04:53):
be spread out pretty far. Andthe reason I believe that is the demand
for quarterback young quarterback in the NFLright now is fairly high. It's higher
than average. You've had a lotof quarterbacks retire in recent years without a
true succession plan. And even theJordan love Green Bay Roger situation, I'm

(05:14):
not convinced they're sold on him yet. And his rookie contract is almost up,
so you can add another quarterback tothat list of guys that already said
it is fairly big of teams thatare going to need a quarterback in the
next year or two. So becauseof that, I think the quarterbacks are
going you know, we're gonna seeTune in the top four. I think
we'll see another one in the toptwelve. And I think someone's going to

(05:38):
Lamar Jackson Hendon Hooker in that they'regoing to trade up towards the end of
round one so that they can getthat fifth year option on that contract.
So someone in the second round it'sgoing to make a move up for Hendon
Hooker could certainly see it. Youknow, well, we'll see how it
all plays out. But I appreciatethat into because I agree with you.

(06:00):
I mean, I like Anthony Richardson. I think he's got a lot of
the tools. You know, he'sgetting knocked around like Josh Allen was coming
out, like Jalen Hurts was comingout. But I think some of these
folks, I mean, even LamarJackson, you bring him up, man,
you know, the fact that hefell all the way to the end
of the first round kind of wildin eyesight. So you know, well
we'll see how Yeah, what bothersme about Richardson, right, I said,

(06:25):
there's something about all these guys,right, you could say he's inaccurate.
He misses some about easy throws,which is true. It's the experience.
You know, he just didn't starta lot of football games, right.
If you look at how many gameshe has started in college, right,
and you compare that to some ofthe quarterbacks that simply just did not
pan out in the NFL. Youknow, the lack of starts are it's

(06:45):
alarming and it's not something that isa deal breaker. But I mean it's
easy to use Brock Purty in thisexample now, but that dude started almost
fifty games in college. Right.Richardson's coming into the NFL with thirteen starts.
Most of these guys started more thanthat in one year. And that's
just one thing. You have tohave a plan for these guys, especially

(07:06):
Richardson, And the plan to meis he needs to be kept out off
the field in year one and lethim kind of ease into the process.
But even more than that, somethingthe Ravens did at such a high level
was they built the offense around him. The scheme, the personnel, the
offensive line was all for Lamar andthe style of football that he played.
They didn't try to force him intoa role or an offense or a scheme

(07:30):
that did not fit his strengths.And whatever, whoever drafts Richardson, you're
getting the highest upside player in thequarterback class. And it's not even close.
The things he can do nobody willever be able to do. I
mean, Bryce Young could fit insideof Anthony Richardson's thigh. I mean,
he's he's massive. He is CamNewton reincarnated physically. But you can't put

(07:51):
him out on the field right away. And if you do, you can
ruin a player. We see itall the time. Yep, that's for
damn sure. So we're the bestAnthony Richardson. But yeah, it's you
got to tread that one lightly,so kind of flipping off the quarterbacks real
quick into you know, some othermore overarching questions I had for you.

(08:13):
We'll try to keep this a bitgiant centric for our listeners. You know,
we got three picks in the firsttwo days. Got a lot of
holes, right, What are thetop three positions of need that you think
we should address on day one andday two? So let's let's ignore the

(08:33):
fact of you know, let's ignorethe players in the class. Right now,
If you just said, hey,there's there's going to be a blue
hit player at every single position,and you get to pick that guy.
Which one's going to help the Giantsout the most. It's wide receiver,
it's cornerback, and another offensive lineman. I will admit I am biased towards

(08:54):
the offensive line. I want anEagles line. I want the best line
in football, not a good line, and the Giants often line. It
was better this past year than whatwe've seen in recent seasons, but I
do think there's another spot or eventwo where they can go in and get
a guy that really helps, youknow, win the line of scrimmage week
tweek. I want every single weekthat to never be a debate. And

(09:16):
when you watch the Eagles, evenwhen you watch the Chiefs, the two
teams in the Super Bowl this year, right, you knew at least that
was gonna be a must. Theywere gonna go in there and they were
gonna win the trenches and then youwould take care of everything else from there.
So that's why I believe even thoughthey spent the seventh overall pick on
a tackle, they have an allpro left tackle. Their biggest free agency

(09:37):
contract last year was given to aright guard. We like Josh as a
duo, but we don't love themyet. There's still a question with him
and his neck injury. I wantthe Giants to address that spot because I
think it helps the team the most. But that offensive line need ranks behind
wide receiver in cornerback. I thinkthose are the two spots. They were
dead last the NFL last year inclosed place, and how are you going

(10:03):
to do that. You can't relyon sae Quon and Daniel Jones bootlegs,
right. You got to get thereceivers that are either a the downfield threat
or be ultra dangerous after the catch. And they've they've made some progress,
not as much as some people thinkwith the wide receiver room. You know,
they've kind of replaced some bodies,and I think it's a more economic
group in that they're not paying acontract to Kenny Gollday anymore. That helps

(10:26):
a lot, But they still lacka true game baker, a game breaker
at receiver, and I believe that'sthe number one spot they got to go
to if the talent is available.So I kind of look at it the
other way around. Like for me, I agree wholeheartedly with you on the
interior or the offensive line. Ithink we need two starting guards and we

(10:48):
certainly need a center. Right.Like the wide receiver room, I think
it's improved from last year. Imean, Hodgens came on look pretty good.
Wandell coming back from the injury.Hopefully he'll rebounds and can be the
same guy they bring in Paris Campbell, they bring in Jamison Crowder. I
think that's an update upgrade over GalaDay. And like Richie James per se,

(11:11):
so wide receiver not as like hugeof a need in my eyes as
the offensive line is. Like forme, it's like, if we can
get a center in there, geta guard in there, show up the
line, that's going to give DanielJones more time to make his reads.
He's not going to be feeling thepressure nearly as much. And then,
since we have so many holes,if we wait until next year, and

(11:35):
then the wide receiver crop next yearcould be potentially even stronger than the one
this year. And then you addin that wide receiver, and like Dave
T always said, it takes twoyears to get a wide receiver going,
but sometimes they can show out inthat first year. So I'm kind of
looking at it more so of likestructuring the offensive line to be successful.
Get that in full swing, getthe cylinders moving there, and then you
know, addressing a wide receiver later. I think wide receivers pretty deep in

(11:58):
this draft, to be quite honestwith you, And I don't know,
I mean, you know, they'rethey're fine up in the first round,
but I don't know if i'd reallylike run to the podium for any of
the wide receivers in the first roundor the second round for that matter.
But I agree with you the corneris definitely a need. I think there's

(12:18):
certainly gonna be a lot of cornersavailable for us to choose from on Night
one there. But yeah, yes, for sure. I mean one thing,
I mean, I could, youknow, go through our zoom call
and give you a chess pump onthis, dude, because like I love
the offensive line, I love theconcept of the idea of pumping a first
round pick there. Because one philosophyI've had on building a football roster is

(12:41):
it's almost fool proof in that adominant or good offensive line it makes everyone
else better. A good wide receiver, good running back does not make everyone
else better. And for the samesuccess even when the Giants were making the
playoffs on a repeated basis with EliManning Tom Coughlin era. You know,

(13:03):
I know, they didn't have superstarson the line, but it was a
very good, well put together offensiveline, a lot of chemistry, and
this is an opportunity for the Giantsto go grab another young guy that you
can really build a foundation with contractually. Right, you consider the economics that
if you get the right guard inhere or the right center in here,
these guys could theoretically, just basedon economics alone, could be together for

(13:28):
the next six, seven, eightyears. And you almost never see that.
And what is the team that hasdone that at the highest level right
now? It's Philadelphia, right,I mean, I hate to bring that
up. Is there a division foeAnd you might just want to never emulate
the Eagles and anything they do,but one thing they've done, I mean,
just look at the resources they haveon the offensive line, A bunch
of high picks, and they hiton all of them and they kept them

(13:50):
together and it just creates this chemistrythat is really hard to match by just
trying to patch together free agent.Offensive lines are built in free agency.
So I mean gun to my head, Dave, you say, hey,
you have an equally graded offensive linemanand a receiver, especially like you said,
in this class where the separation ofday two guys really is not that

(14:11):
different. I'm going offensive line absolutelysince a matter of whether one of those
guys be there, and piggybacking offof that in terms of like the old
offensive line and having the continuity thatwe do when we were making the playoffs
and everything back in the day withEli, the wide receiver room was not
anything spectacular. Back then, youhad guys that had shut hands. I

(14:33):
mean yeah, you had like yourPlaxigo Burris was, you know, your
end zone target and all that kindof stuff. Great, But Hakim Knicks,
Mary ol Manningham, Steve Smith,like these guys weren't bona fide you
know day one. I mean enoughwho Kee Knicks went in the first round
like great, But you know it'sjust to me, I don't see that

(14:54):
being as necessary of an investment aseverybody seems to be making it out to
be. Like if we take ZafeHours in the first round, I'm throwing
the remote, like, yeah,you know, I feel about the smaller
wide receivers like we talked about thatwhen we're talking about Wandale last year,
and you know, za Flower isgreat, He's seeing this huge spike and
everything like that. But I justdon't think especially with like how the offensive

(15:18):
line depth in this draft runs offin day two. In day three,
like you know, let's let's talkcenter. You know, Schmidt's Love,
Schmidt's Tipman, Whippler Stromberg, thekid Olawa, Timmy from Michigan, you
got like juice scrugs. If we'rereally starting to get down into the weeds

(15:39):
there on day three. But youknow, I think Schmidt's Tipman, Whippler
Stromberg, like those are the guysthat are plug and play. But I
don't think that any of them aregoing to be available in the third round.
I think that like maybe one ofthem is gonna go at the end
of the first round and then there'sgonna be a run on them in the
second round because it's either grab himnow or you're not going to be able

(16:02):
to get him later. So,you know, prioritizing a position like that,
which you know a lot of peopleare, you know, getting their
panties in a lot about investing inlike an interior alignment or a center so
early on. But you know,I'm a huge advocate of John Michael Schmidtz
and if he could be an anchorin the center of your line, he's

(16:23):
a leader. He can do everythingthat you would want out of that position.
And if you can have him asyou're you know, Sean O'Hara for
the next ten years, Like whywouldn't you go for that guy even if
the positional value isn't necessarily there,like if you're reaching for him per se
when he could be had in likethe early second which like yeah, you

(16:45):
couldn't theory trade down or whatnot.But you know, for the center position,
if you don't take one of thosefirst four guys, in my eyes,
like we're not really solving that need. We're just kind of rolling the
dice on somebody hoping that we hit. But you know, if history serves
us like it has as of late, we haven't been hitting there in the
later rounds. So you know,is that a priority to you on day

(17:08):
one? Day two? Yeah,I mean I think you need to improve
the offensive line. That's really likemy it's absolutely a priority. So the
question is, now, do youfeel the grade of these players matches where
you're drafting. And you know,Joe Shane, I've always said this.
I'm in the health and industry field. I said, I tell us the
people that are trying to get healthierand lose weight. All this stuff,

(17:30):
right is, you know, don'tgo shopping when you're hungry. Don't go
food shopping when you're hungry. Youmake bad decisions when that happens, right
because everything looks so good and youcrave certain things. Right if you go
into the draft saying, hey,we lost in the gates, we lostfully
Siana, we don't have an answerat the center, and we have no
depth behind those guys. If someonegoes down, we have to get a

(17:52):
center. Because of that reason,I don't mind saying we need to walk
out of this draft with the center. But I don't think the grade of
Schmidts, Titman, Whippler matches thetwenty fifth overall. And what I mean
by that is this, there's goingthere will be a lot of players available
at that spot that are simply justbetter at football than these guys. Now
they don't. The issue with whatI'm saying is you don't want to leave

(18:17):
the draft with that box unchecked,you know, because it can't. It
can ruin your team. So Ithink the art of the draft, and
some teams do this so much betterthan others, is really finding that line
of when is the appropriate time totake a player that you need. You
know that the Giants don't need beJean Robinson. Right, if he falls

(18:37):
to twenty five, even though he'sgraded so highly, you can't take him,
right. I mean, I wouldn'targue against it, but I'm just
saying from a macro level perspective,you don't take him unless you know se
Quon's not going to be here forthe long term. But let's not even
go down that rabbit hole yet.But what if he's there and I know
this won't happen, but what ifhe's there around too? Then you know?
Then then then there you are.There's your line. You won't you

(19:00):
won't pass on him a second time. You will take him and you figure
it out. So where is theline of taking a player that you really
do need the first a player thatyou just graded really highly. And it's
a It's a fascinating discussion. Andone thing that I've noticed gms that do
a lot of trading throughout the weekendup down, first round, a fifth

(19:22):
round, fourth round, third round, next year's four, this year's second.
They go in with that plan.It's almost like some of these finance
guys that are starting to take overGM roles, they're so good at putting
all this data together and really gettingwho they want in the draft rather than
hoping their guy is there the nexttime they come around. So instead of

(19:42):
just saying first round pick, secondround pick for the Giants, why don't
you go grab that you know,that standout grade on your draft board,
no matter what position he plays inthe first round. But then once that
round two comes around, you startmaking some moves to move up and get
a guy a center, which isprobably a better value once you get to

(20:02):
a round pick forty forty five,but also try to acquire picks later in
the draft so that you're not losingall of your swing in all your swings
in the batters box, you knowwhat I mean, Like, I don't
want to walk out of this draftwith four rookies. You know you still
want eight to ten guys out ofthis class, and if that means you're
trading up then trading down a fewtimes, you know, I'm all about
it. You know, example,the Giants. What do you think about

(20:25):
this? The Giants are trading upfrom twenty five and having to give up
a second round pick for it,which you know is evil. Everyone wants
to trade down? Why because weall want more picks so we could talk
about more football players and dream thatthey're going to be great at football.
Right. Remember, the success rateon draft picks is less than fifty per
so more picks does not always equalbetter results. However, if the Giants

(20:47):
were to trade up from let's sayit's like thirteen fourteen, fifteen area,
they give up their second round pick, but could you at least get a
six round pick in return, Justbe that you still have that swing in
the batters box and it gives youmore ambimition and if you want to trade
up later in the draft. Thoseare the kind of moves that I see
a lot of young, successful GM'smaking that seems to be over the head

(21:07):
of some of the older decision makers. I agree with you, I think
in terms of like trading up thisyear, the only player that I would
really I mean, you have tobe enamored with a prospect to do something
like that. I mean, Carolinaobviously enamored with Bryce Young. They gave
up quite a boatload to go upto the first pick to get them right,
so there's definitely value there, butyou have to really be into the

(21:30):
player. Joey Porter would be myguy if I'm really trading up for somebody,
like you know, Torrens will probablybe gone by the time that we
pick. You know, some ofthese tackles, you could try to convert
them to guard, but like,I just don't see the need of like
giving up, you know, thatdraft capital, because like I do want

(21:51):
that second round pick. I reallycovet that second round pick, and I
think there's gonna be a ton oftalent in the second round for us to
go after. I would probably preferto trade back if anything, but I
think that, you know, there'sa good likelihood that there's a run on
a certain position and then somebody's gonnafall to us. I mean, it

(22:12):
happens every year. You know.Like one guy who I think makes a
lot of sense if we stay putat twenty five is Darnell Right, the
tackle from Tennessee. And you know, I don't think that a lot of
people are talking about him to theGiants, but he's a guy that has
a lot of versatility, like youcould kick him inside next to Evan Neil,

(22:34):
or if god forbid, Evan Neilreally can't excel at the tackle position,
no problem, you can kick EvanNeil inside and then he can play
tackle for you. And Darnell wasa left tackle, so he also has
that versatility if Andrew Thomas goes down. So you know, I think he's
somebody who most people will probably havegraded higher than the likes of a John

(22:56):
Michael Schmidt. So that's a scenariowhere you're not really reaching for somebody.
It's a good draft value per seif you're staying put. But I like
the idea of potentially trading up inthe second round, which you know,
I think Joe Shane is certainly willingto do, and he's moved around a
decent bit last year, so Icould see it happening. But you know,

(23:18):
I think corner has got to beaddressed in the first two rounds,
and then I think interior offensive linemanhas got to be addressed in the first
two rounds. So whether that's youknow, going after a Deonte Banks type
or keiey Ringo type or Brian Brancheven if he makes it down there in

(23:40):
day one and then seeing who's leftover out of the Tipman Whippler Stromberg conversation
when you get to the second round, or if Schmitz falls a little bit
and then you can go up andget him and then you can get the
likes of day one corner along witha John Michael Schmitz in day two,
Like that would be ideal. Andgoing off of what you're saying here,

(24:00):
is like the hit rate in thelater rounds, particularly for the Giants as
a late, has been pretty slim. So what difference does it make if
you give up one of those laterpicks to move up a little bit to
get your guy in the second round. Like, I'm all for that.
I think it makes perfect sense.So hopefully they do look to maximize the

(24:21):
value there. But that's always beena conversation for me, is BPA versus
needs right? Like in finding thatbalance that's normally how I try to look
at the draft is like, Okay, we need a corner, we need
a center, But the quality ofthat talent after the second round gets kind
of slim, especially if there's arun on both the positions, which I

(24:41):
expected there will be right, Soyou really got to address those earlier on.
And then wide receiver like, yeah, everybody knows we need a number
one wide receiver, etc. Etc. Like defensive line as another one that
we haven't really talked about but isstill in need. It sounds like the
conversation with Dexter's reps are going prettygood, but then you got Leonard Williams

(25:03):
and it's like, as are yougonna get resigned? I don't know about
that. So how are we gonnalike fix the depth issues and then the
perspective of not having starting caliber defensivelineman. I mean, you go back
to the Eagles conversation. They tookJordan Davis in the first round last year.
They didn't need Jordan Davis, butJordan Davis is a mammoth of a

(25:25):
man, you know what I mean? And yeah, like that that goes
back to that philosophy and I'm allfor that. So and you know,
defensive line, I think you canget a little bit more quality in like
the third round, the fourth round, the fifth round. I think that's
a little bit deeper of a positionby comparison to say like cornerback an interior
offensive lineman. But you know,you got to figure out what makes the

(25:48):
most sense. You know. Thatkind of leads me into another question I
had for you, what's one positionyou're going to be disappointed if we don't
address it in the first three rounds. It's tough because you know, when
I go through these positions, youcan make a strong case for four or
five spots to be selected with thesefirst three picks. So that means you're

(26:12):
gonna be missing out on one ofthe at least two of these spots,
right, and you look at whatthey did in free agency. They put
they put a couple of band aidsover cuts that needed stitches, which is
part of building a roster. Youcan't fix every issue every year. Especially
when the new regime took over thisteam. There there were a lot of
I don't know how many people reallyrealize this was a bad roster last year

(26:33):
when they took over, and youknew it was going to take a couple
of years and they had to hitin the draft. So a spot that
if we're going to day two andthey have not added talent to the cornerback
position, I'd be upset because it'sjust a really vulnerable group. I don't
want to call them lucky. Butlast year, the fact that Nick McLeod

(26:56):
and Phoebe Moreau played as well asthey did after getting picked up after training
camp. I mean, what ifyou didn't hit on those guys? You
know, are we really going torely on waiver claims or guys that are
on the street after training camp toplay one of the most important positions in
football when you're starting quarterback or Jacksongoes down, who has had multiple injury

(27:18):
issues, He's not a very durableplayer. It's not one of his strengths.
If that happens again, you know, are you gonna you know,
strike gold again with a couple ofwaiver claims? And what is the long
term future of Jackson? Is hehere for the next two, three,
four years? Because if the answersno, and only the Giants brass knows
that you have to get a cornerbacktown in here and look at all wink

(27:41):
Martindale's best defense is when he wasin Baltimore, he had studs on the
outside because his most ideal way ofplaying defense is a confusion, right,
cause confusion for the opposition. Butblitz and get these guys on the corner
that need to be on an islandwith no help over the top. That's
a staple in his best defensive schemes, and you need to be a special

(28:03):
player to be able to do that. I mean, when you had Humphrey
and Marcus Peters at their peak,that was it worth perfect for that scheme.
And I'm not even confident about Jacksonin that role. I think he
could be a I would love forhim to be my number two Dorry Jackson,
but he is the number one bycountry mile here. You know,
Cordell walking up, is he goingto pan out? Maybe? Aaron Robinson?

(28:26):
Is there anything there we haven't seenyet? Maybe? But there's just
a bunch of maybe's at a spotI wouldn't want to see maybe. So
I think that's the one spot withthose first three picks, I got to
see a corner come in here.So let's expand on the corner conversation because
I agree with you there. Ithink it is a super pressing need beyond

(28:47):
the lack of depth and starting calibertalent that we have at that position and
it being a vital position in thisday and age in the NFL. And
I really don't have high hopes foryou know, some of those guys we
have on the roster who you know, well, we'll see if they pan
out, but I don't think thatthey're necessarily starting caliber on other teams that

(29:10):
actually have bona fide starting cornerback.So, you know, looking at some
of the prospects, I mean,I think it's safe to say, like
Witherspoon, Gonzalez, Porter, probablygonna be gone before we pick. So
that leaves you with Ringo Banks.You know, some people are throwing Turner
into that mix, or Forbes orSmith. I mean, I think if

(29:32):
I'm looking at the first round andwe're not trading up for a guy like
Porter, for me, it's betweenlike Ringo and Banks, and then if
you don't address it in the firstround, then you're it's kind of a
crapshoot. Like I really like DariusRush, Julius Brents, you know,
some of these guys that maybe we'llmake it to us. But if there's

(29:53):
a huge run on corners in thefirst round and at the top of day
two, you know, it's it'skind of that same conversation we're just having
about the centers. It's like,where do you pigeonhole yourself into not being
able to really address this need,and like, is it worth the risk
of not taking that player in thefirst round and then seeing if you can.

(30:15):
I mean, because even if youtrade up, like it's still a
risk. You know, like maybeit'll happen, maybe it won't, that
you'll be able to like land yourguy. And you know you probably got
like two targets three targets at agiven position in a given round if you're
really emphasizing looking that way in adraft, But how do you kind of
look at the first round verse secondround talent at the cornerback spot and is

(30:37):
it so much of a priority thatyou know it's unquestioned in your eyes that
we should go cornerback in the firstround by comparison to trying to wait until
day two. It's an interesting conversationbecause you know, to me, it's
easier to find receivers day two.That doesn't mean I don't want to look
at receivers in round one, butevery year I feel this way that in

(30:59):
round two, I think you canfind your guy at wide receiver. I
don't feel that way about corner Butthen you look at these two classes.
I do think the cornerback group inthis draft. It's just better, and
it's a better group of guys thatI'm actually in this year. I'm a
little bit more confident you can find, especially a schematic fit for Martindale right

(31:21):
that he will be there round two. You might need to make a move
up for him, you know,five to ten spots, which might cost
you a fourth or fifth rounder,which again you might might be much more
willing to do than trading up inround one and losing a second and a
third rounder. But let's say theystay put at twenty five and that's where
they go cornerback. My guess isthat you're gonna get the fifth cornerback taken.

(31:45):
Are you okay with that? Youcould get lucky, right, and
maybe your number two is the guythat's there number five, right, But
that's something that I think the Giantsare gonna have to think hard about.
It's almost like in the quarterback class, but the teams that are looking for
a quarterback and you're gonna wait tillside the top ten. Are you okay
with getting the fourth one off theboard, or do you want to make
aggressive move up for someone Gonzalz andwhether it's when I think they're long gone

(32:08):
I don't think there's any shot atgetting them unless you're gonna sell your future,
which you won't do for a corner. Joey Porter Junior is picking up
a lot of steam. I dothink he's a unicorn. I do trust
that he is an ideal fit forthe Wartondale scheme. I would trade up
for him, like you. Howmuch that prices, I don't know.
But then you have the two wildcards, who I do think they're both

(32:28):
gonna be there or very close towithin striking distance of the giants that if
they did trade up, it'd bea small trade up in ringo and banks.
And what kind of scares you aboutboth of them is the best trade
in their game right now is theathleticism, you know, the way they
test, especially the speed right andwe see this every year. I have

(32:49):
a database of every combine result inYou know, in most cases, these
guys that win the combine, they'renot the guys that end up having a
long sustainable NFL career. To becareful, and I'm not saying that you
want good athletes. You need goodathletes at Corner. It's a prerequisite to
play there. But if you're gonnaover if you're gonna really increase the outlook
of a player at corner because hehad a good work out at the combine,

(33:14):
You're playing with fire, and that'skind of the feel I get from
Deonte Banks. He's my number five. He's a borderline first rounder for me.
Where Ringo I trust the ball skills, the field and the competitive nature
in his game. You know,notice how there I didn't talk about his
sub four or four forty or histrack background. If anything, I think

(33:34):
his combine was a little underwhelming whenyou're looking at some of the jumping numbers
and the change of direction, whichdoes pop up on tape two. But
I trust the development of Ringo andthe potential of him much more than I
would Bank. So you know,if I can't get one of those first
guys Banks, Porter, Witherspoon,Ringo Gonzalez in round one, I still

(33:54):
feel just as good about a JuliusBrent's, Tyree st Stevenson camp Smith and
even Darius Rush, camp Smith's teammate. Those are all guys that I have
to think one of them will bethere round two. I really like Darius
Rush. Like if we don't takea cornerback in the first round, I
would try to do everything I couldto get Darius Rush in the second round.

(34:19):
How that ends up looking in termsof what we go after in the
first round, I don't know,but yeah, I think Ringo would kind
of be my guy. They're attwenty five. If we're staying put and
looking at a corner, you know, Brian Branch also kind of enters that
conversation because you know, he's asafety, nickel, corner, whatever you

(34:40):
want to call him. But wealso have a drastic yeah, we have
a drastic need at strong safety aswell. Opposite Zavian McKinney. You know,
they brought him McCain, but youknow, is he going to be
the starter for the next five years? I don't think so. I'll tell
you what about McKinney, right,the previous regime drafted them. That's A

(35:04):
and B. He's missed more gamesthan he's played now. So yes,
last year's injury was a freak accident. You know that wasn't really football related,
but it's still a fact. Youknow that both he and I want
them to be foundations of this defensemoving forward. Absolutely, but they gotta
play better. They got to beon the field more, and we got
to see them make a real difference, and Brian Branch, to me,

(35:24):
makes a lot of sense for tworeasons. A Julian Love's loss on this
defense is going to hurt more thanpeople think. Bobby McCain's not filling that
hole again, that's a band aidfor a cut that needs stitches. And
is he good enough. Sure,But Brian Branch can play that hybrid safety
nickel role that is really important fromon game day with a Martindale type scheme

(35:47):
where you want to switch up yourlooks and confuse the defense, but it
also helps the death that if yournickel goes down, you know who's stepping
in. If McKinney goes down again, you know who's stepping in. So
Brian Brand I don't think he's gonnabe there twenty five, but he didn't
test athletically that well either, andsometimes it does hurt your draft weekend,

(36:07):
you know. I think that onething that goes in his favor. There's
not a lot of good safeties inthe class overall. There's not really a
standout guy that Branches. Probably everyone'snumber one, so you have to just
law of average. He'll probably beoff the board before the giants coming the
clock. But I agree with youhe's part of the discussion for a being
a compliment to McKinney, but beven maybe being a replacement for him in

(36:29):
a couple of years. Yep,No, I agree with you there.
So yeah, I think you knowRingo Banks Branch. What do you think
about Darius Rush going before Cam Smith? It's possible I have them. I'm
looking at my stack right now.I have Cam Smith and Darius Rush back

(36:52):
to back with the same numerical grade. And it's funny. When I grade
these guys, I really try mybest not to stack them prior to grading,
meaning I don't want to be biased. I don't want to like a
guy just on tape and just automaticallygive him a grade higher. I have
a process to grade players, andwhatever the number says, the number says,
and they came out with the samenumerical grade. So they're back to

(37:14):
back of my stack. Camp Smith, to me is a safer year one
contributor. He was my top Hewas a top five corner for me pretty
much all year, and then onceI went deeper dive on the tape,
I saw a few things I didnot like. He didn't measure in as
big as I thought he would.And then Darius Rush was the opposite.
He was kind of like in thefifteen to twenty tier. And then once

(37:34):
I did his deeper dive, youstart to make the argument that he might
be a better football player. There'sno questioning as a higher upside just looking
at the size and speed. Butalso he's still relatively new to the cornerback
position. He started off at widereceiver. Started to make a transition,
and it shows up when that dudeattacks the football. I mean, I'll
tell you what. There are somecorners that are playing corners because they can't

(37:54):
catch the ball. You know.That's they were wide receivers that just couldn't
catch the ball. So hey,you're good enough, you're a good enough
athlete, go to the defensive side. Russia is the opposite. I think
he moved the corner because he hada clearer shot at the NFL. And
that's something that we're starting to see. Look at the size at some of
these corners. Now these guys areten years ago, they're they're wide receivers

(38:15):
receiving Julius Brents. But there's thisthere's a shift happening with youth football,
high school football, early college football, that these coaches are getting these kids
heads and saying, if you wanta clear shot at the NFL, because
remember a lot of these kids goto college not for the education. They're
getting their shots at the NFL ifyou truly want to get there, the

(38:36):
more efficient path of less resistance isthat cornerback because it's not a saturated market
like wide receiver is. So you'restarting to see the shift happen a little
bit that there's guys that can probablypass as the wide receiver with all the
size and lengths and ball skills.They're at corner now. And Darius Russia
is the prime example in this group. I really like Darius Russian. I

(39:00):
would be concerned that he's not goingto make it to us in the second
round and if we don't address corner, then you know, you got to
move up for him or something likethat. But I appreciate all the insights
on the cornerback class because yeah,I think a lot of these names are
getting highlighted for the Giants. It'san obvious need all that kind of stuff.
So it'll be interesting to see howit all shakes out. But moving

(39:23):
along a little bit here, Iwant to talk crazy with you for a
second, because I haven't seen thisat all, but and I don't.
I'm not suggesting that this is actuallyin the realm of possibility, feasibility,
however you want to categorize it.But you know, it's a loaded tight
end class. There's a lot offolks who are going after some of these

(39:45):
guys, two, three, fourof them going in the first round.
We'll see how it all shakes out. But Darnell Washington from the University of
Georgia, I have to think thatit would just be absolutely a stick if
you put him and Darren Waller onthe same field together. I mean,

(40:05):
it's it's a mood shot, man, It's not actually going to happen.
But like when you just think aboutthat, and you know, you look
at the Patriots doing the two tightend sets and all that kind of stuff
and really excelling with it when itwas like Gronk and Aaron Hernandez back in
the day, and they've kind oflike lost attraction there. But I mean,
I'm concerned with Darnell's height. Ithink everybody's going after his knees,

(40:28):
and you know, I don't knowif it'll necessarily translate. Like he kind
of reminds me a lot of GilanniWoods, who we talked about a bit
last year coming out of UVA,huge body, good receiver, wasn't utilized
as much as he could have beendown there at the University of Georgia.
But you know, if we're talkingabout needing receiver threats and needing like a
bona fide number one receiver, likewhy not a tight end? Why not

(40:52):
throw two tight ends on there andyou know, really split a defense up.
I mean, I couldn't tell youa defense that would be able to
contend with Darren Waller and Darnell Washingtonat the same time. Like that would
just be ludicrous. You know whatdo you think, I mean something crazy
like that? I'm all about crazy, dude. You know, Like we
talked about this before we started recording, but you know, I get sick

(41:14):
of hearing the same stuff over andover. So why not think outside the
boxes? I'll tell you what someteams do that. And what's one theme
that we see with some of thepast catchers on this diants wide receiver group.
They're small, they have a lotof guys on their six feet tall
that are not going to win ina lot of contested situations. And maybe
that's schematic. Calf Gut and Tablecan create a lot of space with their

(41:35):
route concepts and timing. But nomatter what, you need a few big
bodies, or you need to havea theme on your offense. And what's
one trait that nobody else has.It's a tight end like Waller, a
tight end like Washington. So doI think it's going to happen. No,
But do I think it needs tobe discussed. Absolutely? I mean
I think everything needs to be discussed. Maybe maybe not drafting a quarterback with

(41:58):
the first pick because they just upDaniel Jones, But hey what the Giants
are putting some work in on HendonHooker, So don't don't overlook anything is
possible at this point. And Ithink it's it's foolish not to talk about
an idea, whether it's a quarterbackDarnell Washington. Washington, to me,
he's the one of the probably themost fascinating prospect in the class for multiple

(42:22):
reasons. Right, five star recruitthat came the year before brock Bowers,
Right, and brock Bowers is gonnabe a top ten pick next year,
So you just didn't get to seehim play as much as he probably would
have had he gone to an Alabamaor Tennessee or Florida UM. But the
greatest treat in his game. He'sa better blocker than half of the lineman

(42:45):
in the league. And I meanthat, you know, and we could
even get away from the Darren WallerWashington route concepts, how do you cover
these guys? Washington gives this offensean identity up front. I don't think
I can recall the time that anactual tight end, not a blocking tight
end, because I think Darnell's ahe can do it all. He can

(43:06):
run routes, catch the ball,run with the ball after the catch.
But so from an actual, realtight end that does everything, I don't
think I have a tight end inmy database that was as good as him
at getting guys off the ball asa blocker but also doing it in space.
This is a kind of guy thatcan really make life easier for Saquon
Barkley. This is a kind ofguy that can make life easier if you

(43:28):
have a hole or two on youroffensive line. He can make up for
a lot of that. So youknow, even if Waller is going to
be your receiver, your oversized slot. There's still a spot for Washington.
If anyone's in trouble, it's DanielBellinger. If Washington gets a spot.
But I think it would give theGiants a really unique identity that nobody else
in the league is doing right now. And because of that, you might

(43:50):
not know how to defend it.And it can give the Giants a little
bit of an edged week to week. And then you got all these shifty
wide receivers in between. They cancreate space, and you know, I
think, yeah, there's a lotto like about it. I don't think
it'll actually happen, but I agreeanother thing. Another thing regarding tight end
Waller, right, he's I don'this contract right, it's basically a bunch

(44:14):
of one year options right where theGiants can get out of after this upcoming
season. They're either going to haveto pay in between thirteen and fifteen million.
I think it's somewhere there, whichis pretty high for a tight end,
or they can cut them loose atno cap hit, and that I
think that's the way his deal isstructure for the next two or three years.
So let's say he gets Hurt hasanother injury filled season, he might

(44:36):
be out next year. Again,these are possible. I don't want to
be doomsday guy, but you haveto consider these possibilities. And when you're
constructing a team, you know,I think fans get really shortsighted about they're
thinking about this upcoming season only whereI think part of a GM's job is
to look year two, year three, year four, where we're sitting Where
where's the money going to be tiedup? After we sign Andrew Thomas,

(45:00):
Dexter, Lawrence, Saquon Barkley,if we sign them. You know,
these are all things that these guysdo at a very high level, and
I think fans kind of miss outon a little bit when they're talking about
draft personnel. The draft to meis about three to four years from now.
Do I want them to contribute yearone? Yes, And we saw
a lot of that last year,right The Giants had a Round four starting
tight end that was a pretty goodplayer for them. But you know,

(45:22):
and you always want that that's icingon the cave. But it's about the
future. That's what the draft is. Yep. And I think it would
be cool for Darnell to have somebodylike Darren in the room with him giving
him, showing him the ropes,giving him some advice. This is what's
worked for me. This is,you know, a learning curve you're gonna
have to get around. Here aresome tricks of the trade, like I

(45:44):
think that could go a long way. And then you know, you look
at Kyle Pitts and like t J. Hopkinson, like some of these tight
ends like Eric Ebron who've gone andlike the top ten, and then you've
got a talent that's not just areceiving threat like an Ebron or Kyle Pitts,
but a blocker, you know,like you're saying, you know,
to be able to have the conversationof getting him at the end a round

(46:07):
one is pretty wild to me.But I think it's just the fact that
it's a loaded tight end crop thisyear is why he's fall down there,
you know, Yeah, the loadedgroup. And I'll tell you I don't
want to tell you who, butthere was an offensive line coach in the
league that asked me if I thinkhe could be an offensive tackle in the
NFL because he played he played attwo eighty at Georgia. I think he's

(46:28):
slimmed down to about two sixty fivefor the combine. I think he was
already back up around two seventy forthe pro day I remember correctly. He's
a guy that just and he's alean. He's not overweight, notework I
think issues with him from what I'veheard, and they are having guys that
have come from that program with workethic issues. He's not one of them.
But he's gonna play at two seventyfive, two eighty and if it
doesn't work out for him, that'sjust another thing to think about. You

(46:49):
can't say that about most tight ends. That I bet he could be a
tackle in the NFL if things reallywent south at tight end, because I
bring that out not as a hedge, but more as he has that kind
of feel set and body that it'sjust special and unique. And when you
have special and unique, you gotto put some sort of value on a
draft weekend. It doesn't have tobe round one, but you gotta put
some sort of value on it.Yep. I mean a lot of people

(47:14):
are thinking that he's going to fallinto the second round, and that damn
all might be the case. Imean, maybe, like we were talking
about earlier, if he falls enoughinto the second round, Like, I
wouldn't be surprised if a team tradedup to go get him, Like he
is that much of a unicorn.So appreciate you diving down that rabbit hole,
because yeah, it hasn't been talkedabout at all. But if I'm

(47:34):
like really rolling the dice and tryingto get crazy, I mean that's that's
a conversation that needs to be had. Absolutely. But one other position before
we wrap up here real quick,that I think you know has been talked
about a little bit, but there'sa steady drop off in terms of the
caliber, plug in play talent.My eyes this here. It's a linebacker

(47:55):
position, and you know, madean addition with the guy from the Colts.
I don't want to butcher his lastname, but everybody knows who he
is. And then we've got JaredDavis at the middle linebacker slot slated as
a starter there. So you know, I like Davis when he came out

(48:15):
of Florida, as he liked thereal solution for us going forward, like
could he be a bridge this yearbecause we're not gonna be able to fill
all of our needs short but youknow, with the likes of a Drew
Sanders or Trenton Simpson or Jack Campbellor I mean I really like Henley Sewell

(48:37):
overshean like, there's a lot ofsolid linebackers in the first two days of
the draft, but it might notbe as much of a priority by comparison
to say, interior offensive line,cornerback, wide receiver, d line,
what have you. So, howdo you kind of think about the linebacker

(48:59):
core this year and where the Giantsneed to make that a priority? Like
is it something that we should emphasizethis year or is it something we'll take
a risk on somebody in the laterrounds hope for the best. I mean,
there's always like a quality linebacker thatfalls to the fourth round on a
yearly basis, So you could getsomebody on the beginning of Day three.

(49:20):
But how are you kind of lookingat these top prospects and sort of like
more of the plug in play atthe middle linebacker spot for the Giants going
in next year? Yeah, interestingspot. Here's something the two on a
little bit right. What position didWink Martindale coach in Baltimore prior to being
named defensive coordinator there, It wasthe linebacker position, and a staple of

(49:43):
the Martindale defense's back then from linebackercoach to his early days at decordinator,
where you'd had these undrafted or daylate, Day three linebackers that came out
of nowhere, and we're an absoluteforce in that defense. And I believe
that the Giants, even though Ido like a couple of these linebackers at
the top of the draft, Idon't think it's going to be a priority

(50:04):
for them in rounds one, two, or three. A because of what
they have on the roster compared towhat's in this draft class. But also
because if Martindale's gonna have any say, which I think he will have some
say in the draft, I believehe's gonna look past linebacker and say,
hey, i'll find my guide daythree. Give me one of these picks
day three, and I'll find someonethat can contribute. And so I don't

(50:29):
think they're gonna go there in roundone, two or three, just because
of what else is needed on thisteam. And also this linebacker group,
like you said, it's not verystrong at the top. There will be
players that end up being very goodin the NFL that from this linebacker class.
I'm not saying that that's not thecase, but I believe he's gonna
find his guide day three, justbased on his philosophy, his history,

(50:51):
and one thing that people are forgettingabout Darien Beavers, the sixth round pick
from last year from Cincinnati, whokind of played all over that defense,
edge inside, played the slot evenbetter athletes than you think. I was
at training camp last year for mostof the practices, and I watched where
he was at the start of trainingcamp, and I watched where he was

(51:12):
leading up to his torn ACL.I believe he was going to be the
starting linebacker in that defense last year, the guy right in the middle,
the mic, the guy that doesn'tcome off the field, the guy at
the green dot. Just based onwatching Martindale's interactions with him in person,
but also the interviews after and thenwatching him kind of just ascend through the
debt chart once Blake Martinez left.You know, I think that if his

(51:36):
knee recovery goes smoothly, and youhave to think it will be because by
all the time August rolls around,that's eleven months. That's usually after you
know, guys were usually recovered fromtheir ACL by then. And I think
he's going to be the number twoguy by mid season next year, and
so that might be another reason whythey kind of looked past this group and
many people are forgetting about him andwhat he can offer a wink. Martin

(51:59):
deltis, Yeah, that makes aton of sense, And you gotta there
are too many needs to fill andwe don't have enough draft picks to do
it, especially if we start tradingup in any of the rounds or anything
like that. So there are positionsthat we're gonna have to you know,
leave to Day three and hope forthe best, or they're just gonna have
to get addressed with an earlier roundpick next year. But I could certainly

(52:22):
see linebacker Um being one of thosespots, because yeah, I mean you
can you can find quality death.We haven't necessarily hit on all those linebackers
Um that we drafted in you know, Day three over like the last five
years, per se. But hopefullythey can find more guys like beavers Um
in this year and going in nextyear. But yep, if they're there,

(52:42):
Mark, if they're there, Marnindalwill find them hopefully. Hopefully.
We'd love to see it. Gettingsome stability at a linebacker is definitely pivotal
and I appreciated the free agent additionas they added and all that kind of
stuff. That's certainly trending in theright direction there. But you need the
field general to orchestrate the defense,especially if you don't have strong safety prospects

(53:05):
in the back half of the secondarythere. So yeah, yeah, I
think really what they need they needan Antonio Pierce type, right, an
undrafted free agent by the way,I believe, right, But you know
that that's the kind of general theyneed. And is o'kurkay gonna be the
guy? Maybe? You know,I was fine with the signing. I
actually talked about him in a gamereview that I wrote when the Giants played

(53:27):
against the colt I said, Hey, that's gonna be one of their free
agents that does fit into the Giantsystem. And here he is. He's
gonna be probably their green dot guy. But they need they want two linebackers
on the field pretty often, soyou're gonna I think there's gonna be a
lot of competition for that number twospot and an Antonio Pierce type just the
smart field general is someone I'm lookingat. I'm sure we're talking about.

(53:49):
But his name's names Isaiah Moore fromNC state. I'm sure once we get
into the Day three guys next weekwe could talk a little bit more about
him, But that's the exact kindof fit that I see happening. Is
someone that gets the most out ofhimself. Maybe not the biggest, maybe
not the fastest, but he's productive, he's a leader, and he's really
intelligent. To play a Wink MartinDell defense, you got to be smart,

(54:09):
you really do they He makes youmake a lot of decisions on you
know, at the snap of afinger, post snap, pre snap,
and some of these guys come outof college are not gonna be able to
do it. They might be betterathletes, they might have nicer highlight reels,
but you got to be smart toplay in this defense. That's for
damn sure, man. And yeah, we will be back next week to

(54:29):
talk about some Day three prospects todo a deep dive will compare some of
these positional players that we like goinginto Day three. But I think,
you know, we've accomplished enough fortoday in terms of Day one and Day
two that we could put a ribbonon this at this point. But so
I really appreciate taking a time,always a blast getting your thoughts in your

(54:52):
insights, you know, heading intothe draft less than a week now,
so look forward to look forward tohaving you back next week for another addition
to the Scouts on the podcast.Oh yeah, man, my pleasure and
I can't wait till next week.Appreciate it, dude. We'll see you then.