Scout's Honor podcast, Ep. 6, Matt Hamilton of Good Morning Football

Dave Del Col is joined by Matt Hamilton from Good Morning Football and Fan Duel TV. As a former scout for the Detroit Lions Matt gives a behind the scenes look into what goes on leading up to the draft in the war room. They chat through options at RB, WR and DL in hopes of restoring the Giants to their former glory

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This is the Scouts on Our Podcast. Welcome back to another edition of The
Scouts on Our Podcast. Pleased tobe joined today buying new guest to the
show. Former scout with the DetroitLions, producer and researcher for NFL Films
and Good Morning Football, most recentlytaking his talents on Eric FanDuel TV.

(00:23):
Football coach of New Rochelle High School, Matt Hamilton. Matt, Welcome to
the show, Dave. Thanks forhaving me. I'm excited to join you
and dig into thanks today. Thanksman, We really appreciate you making the
time. Are you're super busy.So being a scout with the Lions back
in the day, wanted to drillinto some of the behind the scenes stuff

(00:46):
with you. What's going on inthe war room all out those kind of
particulars. So in the war roomduring the final week of prep ahead of
the draft, there's always all thesesmoke screens that come out in the media
and people are talking about this inthe third But what is it like being
in that war room is are thingspretty much like level set and you're just

(01:07):
waiting for the draft to actually unfold, or are there all sorts of crazy
calls going on and things behind thescenes that can really fluctuate the board.
In the last week ahead of thedraft, oh, there's a lot.
There's a lot of craziness going on. I'd say, you know, the
weeks leading up to draft and thenthe last week or so a training camp
when you're getting ready to put togetherthe final rolster the two craziest weeks in

(01:30):
the building because every scout is opinionated, and you know when they talk about
pounding the table for a guy likethat, that really happens. It gets
it gets really heated in there sometimes, is uh. These scouts and executives
and decision makers try to come toconsensus on how they want to approach the
draft. So you know, whileyou have your board kind of set,

(01:53):
there's always arguments being made in casesbeing made for different players. So what
point do you actually have a frameworkof, like say, going into day
one, Okay, these are sortof our top three to five guys that
we would love to land ideally,be it a trade up, trade down,
staying where you're at. Is theiridentification like that behind the scenes or

(02:19):
is it really just a you gotto see how things roll out and deal
with it when your pick comes yeah, I mean you really, it's not
as much of like, yeah,these are the three to five player.
I mean, obviously you kind ofhave some idea of who's going to be
available when it comes to your pick, but you really let the board dictate,
the overall board dictate things. Youdon't want to get too focused in

(02:42):
on, you know, certain guys, because what if somebody who's way higher
and your board ends up being aroundby the time you get there. You
know, you want to you wantto really let the overall big board kind
of dictate things and not try tonarrow in too much on certain guys.
Again, obviously you have an idea, a little bit of ideas, you
talk to people you know who shouldbe around when you pick, but really

(03:07):
cementing that overall big board is thebiggest thing, and letting your overall evaluations
of these players stand true and notget too swayed by, you know,
focusing in on a couple of guysare focusing in just on positions of need.
So on draft day, what's itlike in that war room? Like

(03:29):
can you hear a pin drop?Like can you feel the stress and the
tension going on between all the scoutswho are banging the table for one guy.
But then the GM's just he's adecision maker, you know, or
maybe ownerships in his ear what haveyou. But like, what's the vibe
like in that war room on draftday? Yeah, so I think all
of them are a little different.You know, friends around the lead day

(03:52):
that have given me some insight intohow how their war rooms or in things,
and uh, you know it justit kind of depends on the building.
Things do get heated within the waron draft as you know, if
it's down to you know, ifyou're on the clock and it's down to
a couple of guys, like thosearguments are going to happen. Um,
you know, the area's scout.You know, if it's let's say it's

(04:15):
between two players, the area scoutthat scouted that player for years and was
around him and talked to all hiscoaches and you know it was in the
building, they're gonna you know,the GM will listen to him, hear
what he has to say, youknow. And then if it's a different
area scout for the other prospect they'redeciding between, he'll listen to him,
hear what he has to say,and they'll try to come to try to

(04:35):
come to a consensus or there andyeah, and every GM's different, you
know. I think some of themthey want to have that consensus, they
want to hear from everybody right beforeit happens. I think others, you
know, they kind of they runthe show and they have an idea of
what they want to do and they'regonna go out there and be decisive and
do it. Yeah. I thinkeverybody has their own idea of if I

(04:58):
was a GM, this is howI would handle it. And you know,
easier said than done. I thinkwhen the pressure is really on and
you're on the clock and you've gotall these people, you know, screaming,
hooting, holleran trying to get youbuy into their guy. I mean,
that's that's a tough position of being. So I don't really envy it
as much as some other folks.Yeah, because I do. I think

(05:20):
there is this perception that it's,oh, the GM just makes these picks
and it's all on him. No, there's you know, that scouting staff
is so crucial and those guys allhave very strong opinions, and it is
it's a team effort. It's acollective effort from the entire organization, so
kind of piggyback and off of thatinto more of the scouting process a little

(05:44):
bit. One of the things that'sreally been grinding my gears in recent years
is the fact that these players areskipping All Star games. They're skipping combine
drills. I mean, back whenI was like first starting out and scouting,
it was, you know, youwent to the combine, you did
all the drill. Was like maybeyou skip like one drill here or there.
But you know they're faking injuries now, you know, not doing stuff

(06:06):
with their pro days, the combines, the All Star games. Like we
had Naggie on a couple shows agoand we're talking about how some of these
guys, you know, they didreally well in practice, and they did
a couple of days in practice,and then the agents so like, hey,
your draft stocks up enough, likejust bow out. We don't want
you to get hurt. So whatdo you think about the new age of

(06:27):
skipping some of these drills or games, Like, how does that impact the
players? Great? From your sideas a scout, yeah, it's tough
because you obviously you understand it fromthe player's perspective. You know, there's
so much money on the line,your whole futures on the line. You
don't want to put yourself in aposition where you could potentially get hurt and
impact that. But yeah, froman evaluation standpoint, I think the guys

(06:49):
that mostly do that at this point, I mean, I think it is
you're it's getting more and more widespread. But for the most part, the
guys that do that, it tendsto be the guys where you're pretty comfortable.
You know where they're gonna go.You know, um, you know
they're gonna be a top fifteen pickor you know they're the top player of
the position type of thing, andum, you know, they don't have

(07:09):
as much to prove at these AllStar Games and the and the pro days
in the combine. Um, SoI don't know that it necessarily does hurt
them that much. I think thereis kind of an understanding, um from
the NFL side, like, hey, these guys are just protecting themselves.
Um. You know. I thinkthe guys that do do everything, even
when they may not always have to, I think that definitely helps their stock

(07:32):
because it shows you, you know, how committed they are and the work
ethic that they have. So Ithink there's there's a benefit to the guys
that do it. I don't thinkit's necessarily looked at as a negative anymore
to the guys that to the guysthat don't. I mean, you know,
you saw Jamar Chase sit out anentire year, um, you know,
during that COVID year and come inand just take the league by storm.

(07:55):
Um. So you know, themore and more you get guys like
that, um that miss the lotof things or didn't participate a lot of
things that come in and our successfulright away, I think this stigma gets
removed more and more from guys thatdo decide to set things out. Yeah,
Jamar's doing all right. So that'sa good case in point right there.

(08:16):
So in terms of you know,the everlong conversation of BPA verse need
uh Si and I were we dida show yesterday and we were talking a
bit about this and sort of figuringout the balance between the two and trying
to finesse a draft, you know, as a GM between positional value your

(08:37):
needs, but also trying to youknow, like you said, somebody's going
to fall to you that's higher upon your board, but if they don't
fit a need, you know,is it worth taking them. So how
do you kind of look at BPAverse needs and is there a prioritization from
your side in that context? Ithink you definitely have to prioritize BPA over

(08:58):
need um because I think there arevery few teams in this league where it's
like, oh, we just fillthis one position, we're gonna go win
the Super Bowl this year. Youknow. It's uh, you know,
but obviously, yeah, you don'twant to take players that you don't have
any use for. But so therehas to be some type of balance.
But I think you got to prioritizethe board above need because when you start

(09:20):
drafting for need, that's when youget yourself in trouble and that's when you
reach and that's when you take playersyou know, ahead of where you should
have and miss out on some guyswho are really talented. You know.
I'm of that philosophy where you know, if you're that talented and you're available,
because like, we'll find a wayto make it work. We'll find
a way to fit you in.And I think, like you look at

(09:43):
a team like the Giants, forexample, how they built some of those
championship teams over the years. Youknow, they had some pretty pretty damn
good adge rushers already and it didn'tstop them from drafting more of them,
and they found a way to usethat to their advantage. So again,
you have a coaching staff and knowswhat they're doing that is creative. You
give them the weapons, they willmake it work. And you know,

(10:05):
again when I just remember the Kiwanukapick, they're justin tuck pick, how
controversial those works. It's like,oh, we have straight hand and osly,
what the hell are we doing?Well, you know, you saw
how they were able to use thatin their favor. So, um,
I think there's a little overreaction sometimesto need base drafting sometimes. You know,
these teams know what they're doing whenthey're taking a position that it seems

(10:28):
like they don't need. It's it'sprobably for a good reason. And how
do you feel about trading up andtrading down? It seems like Joe Shane
sticking with the giants them here opento bouncing around to maximize value in each
round. So you know, areyou more of a let's just stay put,

(10:50):
We've got our picks. It makessense, like, don't give up
other picks, Let's have more bodiesin there, or you know the Bill
Belichick route of let's trade back nearlyevery draft and just get more bodies into
camp. How do you kind ofevaluate the trading scenarios? And I don't
want this to sound like a copout at all, but I think it

(11:11):
really is. It's a case bycase basis because it really depends kind of
how your board is laid out asyou as you're approaching that pick. Or
like, if there's a guy thatyou really see as you know, so
far and above everybody else, andthey're in a range where you think you
can trade up and get him,um, then it becomes worth it.

(11:31):
You know, where it gets wherewhere it gets you. Some of these
teams in trouble, I think iswhen they trade up and it's not you
know, it's a guy that theylike that fills a need, but there
are all the guys on the boardthat they have graded just as highly,
you know. I think that's whereyou get yourself in trouble trading down.
I think if there's a guy,like if there's a guy there for the
Giants at twenty five that they thatthey love and feel confident and just just

(11:54):
take him. Um, if you'reat a point where you got maybe six
seven guys on your board that youfeel just as confidently in all of them,
and you know you know they're gonnabe around. If you trade down
a little you know you're gonna getat least one or two of them.
If you trade down a little bit, then I like the idea of trading
down that scenario, get more assets, get more bodies into camp. As

(12:18):
you said, I think there's there'sdefinitely more of a trade, you know,
when I look at it, Ilean more towards the trading down versus
the trading up. But again caseby case basis, depending on what your
board looks like and what you needat the time. Are there any prospects
this year that you would really considerif you were Joe Shane trading up for

(12:45):
I honestly, I don't really thinkso. I think with where the Giants
are positioned right now and kind ofwhere this roster is right now, I
think that you got to take thatinto account too, because you know,
as great as last year was,and um as incredible job as Shane and
Dable did been nesting this team intoa playoff team, I think we know

(13:09):
there's still a lot of things thatneed to be fixed in this roster.
Um. And you know, overtime, with the way the cap situation
is that they continue to dig themselvesout of some of the cap trouble they've
been in, UM, you know, they're gonna need to fill a lot
of holes through the draft. UM, you know, to to to be

(13:30):
able to you know, make thisall make sense economically going forward. So
you know, when you're talking abouttrading up, you're you're talking about costing
yourself assets to be able to dothat. And I think the Giants right
now, with with how they're constructed, you know, they're I think there
are too many positions that they needto address, um to be thinking about
trading because again, like you lookat it, you know, versus a

(13:52):
team like the Eagles, just tojust to be frank, um, you
know, the Eagles are are arefar ahead of where the Giants where are.
We saw that in the playoff gameand you look at how complete their
roster is top to bottom. Youknow, you look at is there one
player in this draft that's going togive us that edge over the Eagles?
And I don't think you can honestlysay that at this point if you're evaluating

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it from a giant standpoint. Soa lot of talk about the Giants having
to fill a lot of holes,like you're saying, and sort of the
prioritization of some of those positions.There's spent a lot of talk about the
wide receiver spot. I'm a realproponent of building through the trenches. You
know, if you look at KansasCity versus the Eagles, you know that

(14:37):
battle was one in the trenches.Eagles couldn't get the pressure on the homes
like they have been able to dowith pretty much every other team in the
NFL. So I like to definitelylook at the offensive line, defensive line,
like you were alluding to before,the Giants were taking defensive lineman when
they certainly didn't need them back inthe day when they were winning the Super
Bowls. So a lot goes intothat. And they cornerback also an egregious

(15:01):
need based off of the roster thatthey have at this point. So how
do you feel about some of thesepositions and are there any that you would
sort of prioritize or any players thatyou're really hopeful the Giants will take on
day one? And you bring upa great point. First, of all,
when it comes to the trenches.I always say to people, when

(15:22):
you look at a team that overachievesversus its perception going into the season and
the team that underachieves, just lookat the trenches first, because everybody,
you know, the teams that gethyped up, it's all it's always about
the skilled positions, and you know, if they don't, if they're not
built well in the trenches, thoseteams are going to crumble. And so
I agree with you. I loveaddressing the trenches first and kind of building

(15:45):
out from there. And yeah,you look at even the Eagles getting to
where they got to. I mean, they have the best offensive line in
the league, and you know,a front that was able to generate so
much pressure. Obviously they weren't ableto do in the Super Bowl, but
as you said, they were ableto do it all your long. And
then the Chiefs totally rebuilt that offensiveline over the course of two years and
that's what, really, you know, was the catalyst to getting them back

(16:07):
there, even as they lost talentat the skilled positions. So looking at
this draft for the for the Giants, I know the temptation and the fans
really want an explosive wide receiver,an electric wide receiver, a real true
number one guy. But I'd bereally careful about reaching for that guy.
I think there are some really talentedreceivers in the draft. If one falls

(16:30):
into their lab, I wouldn't beopposed to taking him again. It all
depends on how your board's laid out. But I don't think it's as desperate
a need as some fans really thinkit is. You added Darren Waller,
who's gonna, you know, ifhe's able to stay on the field,
really gonna amp up this passing game. And they have so much depth in

(16:51):
that receiver room right now, youknow, while they may not have,
you know, that real number onethat you can lean on. I mean,
Wandell Robinson's going to be coming back. Hodgens really stepped up and showed
and showed some things last year.I was really impressed with him. You
bring in Paris Campbell, you bringin Jameson Crowd, or you bring in
all these guys they brought in thisall season and bringing back Sterling Shepherd,

(17:14):
bringing back Dariously and it's such adeep room that you know, I'd love
to see them att one at somepoint in this draft, but I don't
think it necessarily has to be inthe first round. I like the idea
of addressing the interior of the offensiveline, or as you said, I
think corner is a position that Idon't think enough people are talking about in

(17:37):
relation to the Giants in this draftand what they need going forward, because
you know, it had to happen. The thing that it gets lost in
this story, I had to happenbecause of salary gap reasons. But losing
James Bradberry, you know, reallyhurt the secondary, and I think they
have work to do to rebuild itand get it where it needs to be.
So I think there are too manyneeds to focus in on wide receiver,

(18:00):
but I think they're in a positionwhere you know, they have enough
needs at different spots. I thinkgoing best player available and looking at the
draft and the way it's expected tobe laid out, there should be some
really good players available that also fitneeds at that twenty fifth pick. Yeah.
I think another name in the widereceiver room that a lot of people
are forgetting about these days, comingoff injury last year is Colin Johnson,

(18:23):
who's guy NFL bloodlines coming out ofthe University of Texas big body guy six
five six six, was having ahell of a preseason before he got hurt,
and you know, I think he'sThey've invested a decent bit in him,
and I think he's gonna, youknow, show back up in the
preseason again. So I agree withyou. I don't think wide receiver is

(18:45):
as big of a need. Ithink it's a pretty deep class for wide
receivers. I don't think the separationbetween a guy you're going to get on
night one versus you know, daytwo, day three is really like that
drastic by comparison to how it isfor interior offensive linemen and quarterbacks. So
I guess in terms of like interioroffensive linemen and quarterback, how do you

(19:08):
feel about like one over the otherwould you prioritize? I think like those
are the two biggest needs in myeyes at this point, So you know,
talking about BPA versus needs and sortof fill in those holes because if
you don't fill them now, likewhen are you going to fill them?
You know, you're going to picksome street free agents or wait until training

(19:30):
camp cuts happen and then just likepray for the best, you know,
so you know, between interior offensiveline where we have three holes as far
as I'm concerned, and then cornerback. Would you prioritize those needs at all
on day one and day two?Or you know, if a defensive lineman
or a linebacker who's on your boardthat you know, fills other needs,

(19:55):
but they might not be as direas still sitting there, like, how
are you kind of looking at that? Yeah? I think you know,
it's a it's a great question becauseit's and it's such a tough it's just
such a tough decision that these theseguys get faced with it this time of
year, because um, yeah,I mean, I think you got to
put an emphasis on if all thingsare even, I think you're taking the

(20:15):
into your offensive lineman, you're takingthe cornerback over any of those other positions.
But if you have a guy thatyou are absolutely in love with,
that's a d tackle or linebacker that'ssitting there in your lap, and you
have him graded, you know,significantly higher than the top graded corner that's
after the top grade into your offensiveline, I think I think you take

(20:36):
him. Um again, the Giants, they need a bunch of things,
they need a bunch of things rightnow. So I think you get you
got to bring to get the bestplayers in that building that you can possibly
get. Um. So yeah,again, things being even or at least
close, I think you lean offensiveline cornerback. But again, if if
that guy's there that you just areabsolutely in love with, I think you

(20:56):
got to grab him. And Iwas talking crazy yesterday, would say a
bit because you know, I tryto think a bit more out of the
box. By comparison to you know, this diligent just corner interior, O
line wide receiver what have you,and Darnell Washington, the tight end from
Georgia really stands out. I mean, you know, putting him on the

(21:18):
field next to Darren Waller, havinghim as a mentor in the room with
him, you know, between hisblocking capabilities, his catching capabilities, I
mean, he's just very dynamic.Brings a lot to the table. And
for him to be available at thetail end around one like in any other
year, I really don't think that'sthe case. But since it's such a

(21:38):
loaded tight end group, you know, obviously he's fallen down a little bit
because he didn't get as much playingtime at Georgia by comparison to some of
these other guys who are projected togo in the first round. But how
crazy would it be to take aguy like Darnell Washington. Yeah, I
think, you know, for someteams, I think it might see him

(22:00):
crazy. I think when you lookat Brian Dable and Mike Kafka and how
they ran this offense last year,it's very clear that they are going to
adapt this offense to fit their personnel. And there's no one scheme that they
want to run. There's no onepersonnel grouping that they say, this is

(22:22):
the personnel grouping. That's our baseoffense is what we want to know.
They are going to make their baseoffense whatever gets the best players on the
field, and um, you know, if that means getting a guy like
Washington just staying in twelve personnel thewhole time with him and Waller, they're
going to cook up some incredible things, um out of the out of that
personnel grouping. And so you know, I think, you know, it

(22:48):
might seem like a little bit ofhis thread, but I could see it
happening if they absolutely love him,which there's a lot of reasons to love
him. As you mentioned, theceiling is so high as actually putting him
around a guy like Waller that youcan learn from. And you know,
remember dabl was you know, apart of some of those Patriots teams and
was around. You know, wesaw what they were able to do with

(23:11):
using a lot of twelve personnel inthe Gronk and Aaron Hernandez days and the
advantages that that gives you when youhave two tight ends that can block and
that are such threats in the passinggame. So, you know, I
don't think it's that crazy when youlook at it, because you have creative
offensive minds that are really going tomake the most of that pick. If

(23:32):
they decide to go that way,it would certainly be interesting and I think
defenses would be terrified to have togo up against something like that, you
know, interesting dynamic there, Soanother skill position running back, A lot
of questions around Sequon Barkley, right, like he hasn't signed his franchise tender

(23:53):
yet, which I get that strategicmove, and they had a contract on
the table well that you know,word has it, rumor has it that
they pulled it off the table atthis point, but his future with the
Giants certainly in question, you know, as far as I'm concerned. I
like sae Quon. I think hewas drafted way too high being a running

(24:17):
back when Gettleman took him at two. Overall, it's not his fault by
any means, but like, theinjuries are also terrifying for me when you're
investing a lot of capital in capspace into a position that doesn't really last.
In the NFL, the running backsthey get run down pretty quick.
They don't have as much tread onthe tires. So how are you thinking

(24:40):
about sae Quon and is it Doesthere come a point in this draft where
if somebody like a Gibbs or asharbonnet or an a chain or spears or
something just like falls right into yourlap, do you pull the trigger on
that position earlier than you might wantto, just be because of the uncertainty
around us future in New York.Yeah, those are Those are two great

(25:06):
questions too. Um as far asthe draft aspect of it, I wouldn't
personally pull the trigger too early becauseI think there is a lot of depth
a running back and I think,you know, let's say sae Quon plays
this year out on the franchise,that you're gonna have a lot of options
that they're always look at the freeagent running back class this year, there
are so many guys that can stepin and play a significant role right away

(25:30):
that that happens every year, UM, and you get them at a value
um or you know you go intothe draft next year. I mean,
there's just a there's always a stableor running backs that that are solid and
pretty much every draft that we've seenin recently, so I wouldn't reach for
one. UM. As for sayQuon, Um, everything you bring up
is valid. It's you know,because it's all you have to separate.

(25:52):
Yes, like you love the player, love the talent, but there are
serious questions there with how much he'sbeen injured, and you know, with
each year that goes by in hiscareer, we see what happens to running
back. So I think that's whyit was so critical to get the Daniel
Jones deal done in the eleventh hourthe way they did, ahead of that
franchise tag deadline, because this isthe ideal situation. You want to lock

(26:12):
up the quarterback and have that franchisetag free for say Quon. If they
had to franchise Daniel Jones and let'ssay Quon walk I think it would have
been devastating. Now it gives youa year to kind of bridge that gap
and figure some of these things out. I think, you know, there
should be enough talent at the runningback position that Johnson get a guy in
the third, fourth, fifth round. You know, I wouldn't go above

(26:33):
the third round, I don't think, but yeah, third, fourth,
fifth round, you can get aguy that can potentially be a successor obviously
probably won't be you know, Barkley. There aren't you know, a lot
of guys as talented as say Quon, but you can at least get somebody
in the building, you know.And also that could take some of the
workload off of Saqlon's plate, becauseyou know, you saw at times I

(26:55):
think he got a little bit overloadedlast year because of how much he meant
to the offense. So um,you know, well, sorry for being
so long. When no, notat all, And it's it's it's a
tough topic. Yeah, yeah,it's it's. It is. It's such
a tough it's such a tough decisionthat they're gonna have to make. But
I think you know, it's nota it's not a disastro scenario. He

(27:17):
just plays out this year on thefranchise tag and take a guy in the
middle rounds and you figure it outnext year. Because again, um,
while I think he's going to beso critical to this offense next year,
is they continue to build things offthe way that they're building up this roster,
you're not going to need to leanon him um as heavily as you
did, you know, as wesaw them have to do last season because

(27:37):
they just didn't have any other talentat the skill positions. Yeah, one
of the things that I think theGiants are lacking in terms of identity that
historically, in years passed, they'vehad at the running back position is a
thumber, you know. And Iget that the game is changing and you
really want somebody who's more of areceiver ever, just you know, can

(28:00):
do it all type of thing.And you know, the Brandon Jacobs handed
off to him and just let himbulldoze a linebacker and a safety. Um,
you know, isn't really the flavorof the week anymore, but you
know, I would really love tosee it. And there's plenty of quality
talent um. You know, thebigger backs like Roshan Johnson coming out of
Texas overlooked by b Jean Robinson obviously, but he's a big dude who can

(28:26):
really, you know, inflict somepain. Eric Gray is a really tough
runner coming out of Oklahoma who Ilike a good bit and has pass catching
ability. Not the quickest guy byany means, but if he hits you,
you're certainly going to know about it. And then a guy like really
late Tavion Thomas out of Utah.You know, Tavion's big. Tavion's like

(28:48):
two hundred pounds, and you knowhe's he's not that electric elusive back by
any means. He's not Austin Eckleror anything close. He's not say,
Quon Barkley, but just to getsome tough yards or if you're down on
the goal line, you know,the old Mike Tolbert just like pound it
right down the middle. You don'tsee that too often, but I feel

(29:08):
like it was something that the Giantsconsistently had for a little while that they've
gotten away from. So how doyou kind of like look at the dynamic
of we've got Barkley, We've gotBrita, you know, do you want
sort of that like small shifty guylike an Evan Hall or something like that,
or a Taj Spears or Devin aChain or do you want somebody who's

(29:30):
more of a bruiser that the defenseis going to fear a bit more when
they're coming up the middle. Imean, I tend to favor the guys
that have the versatility, you know. Just again, I think it does
come down to preference at some point. And you know, I love you
know, as a guy that hasalways coached offense and designed offenses. I

(29:51):
love the guy the more that youknow, the more that you can do,
the guy that can catch passes outof the backfield. But there's definitely
value in having that bruiser. AndI think you're seeing you know, we've
seen some guys um you know,in recent years, those those kind of
downhill bumpers have success because defenses havegotten smaller and quicker to adapt to,

(30:11):
you know, how pass heavy theleague has become, and to adapt to
those those running backs that are muchmore involved in the passing game. So
I think you do have an advantagewhen you have those guys that are bruises,
you know, seeing a Damian Piercelast year or even like the resurgence
of a Deonta Foreman, who's youknow, gets downhill and is a low

(30:33):
d have to bring down. Um. So you're seeing those guys, you
know, you're seeing those guys havea little bit more success again, and
I think there's something to that.Yeah, Derrick Henry's doing just fine in
Tennessee, you know. And Iremember he was getting knocked like crazy when
he was coming out of Alabama.Always too big and he's not gonna make
it, and all this kind ofstuff, and you know that time of

(30:55):
time, his career. Not toget too far off topic, but his
career is just fascinating to watch playout because it it all seemed to be
true. Like that first year anda half with him, Let's not forget
like he had his struggles early on, and I remember there was this it's
kind of gotten lost nowt of history, but like Eddie George had a conversation
with him that is basically like,you're just you're effing bigger than everybody else.

(31:18):
Stop running like you know, stoprunning like you're scared, and just
start you know, crushing people outthere. And it just totally changed his
mindset and ever since he's been completelyunstoppable. It's just I don't know.
It's funny how just something that smalland something like so seemingly obvious could just
it just takes somebody like Eddie GeorgeSangnty and it can click and all of

(31:41):
a sudden, we've seen him becomethe player, and I think so many
of us thought he was capable ofbeing coming out of Alabama. It's it's
tough for the running backs when you'rea big guy like that, because you
got to be scared to injury,you know, and yeah, you're putting
a real toll on your body takingthose hits and giving them, you know,
and you're doing it routinely, andit adds up. I mean you

(32:02):
look back at like Jacobs and Bradshaw. I mean Bradshaw's ankles and feet had
a bajillion screws in them. Youknow, he kept playing, and you
know, it's a decision you haveto make, like how much do you
love the game and all that kindof stuff. But I can appreciate,
you know, like when Jacobs wasgoing down easier, when people were going
you know, hitting them below theknees. It's like there's a business decision

(32:25):
that you have to make when you'rea big guy. So you know,
I understand the apprehension from Derek initiallyin the league, but glad that he
eventually got gone because that's a strongsuit obviously. Yeah, absolutely, And
he burning up a good point.Yeah, it's you know, it's easy
for us sometimes to sit back andsay, oh, what do you do?
But those business decisions sometimes they dohave to be made, and you

(32:47):
got to pick your spots. Andwhen you're gonna try to run somebody over
when you're you know, when you'regonna try to avoid taking another shot to
the knee. Yep. So movingover to the defensive side of the ball
a bit here, m defensive line. We kind of raised over it a
little bit earlier, but you know, a lot of uncertainty at that position,

(33:10):
no depth really in my eyes.But you know, you got Ogillari
coming up on a contract, LeonardWilliams coming up on a contract. Sounds
like Dexter's getting the priority, whichhe's sure should should I mean, Dexter
is that guy. So you gottalock Dexter up long term. But outside
of that, like on the endsand stuff, where is it going to

(33:32):
go? You know? Um,and we're trying to identify these these various
needs for the Giants and it isa really strong year four defensive lineman,
edge rushers, interior guys. SoI think we can find a lot of
quality on day two, day threethere. But how are you kind of
looking at the defensive line for theGiants now, you know, alluding to

(33:54):
you know before straighthand oc Tuck Keiwanukaand just be so far removed from anything
remotely close to that, like whatGibbs Man. Yeah, And it's it's
tough because you know, you talkedabout it before with the Giants having an
identity and having that bruising back thathaving waves of pass rushers has probably been

(34:17):
the biggest part of their identity forthe you know, the better part of
the last forty years. Um,even when the team struggled overall at some
points in the nineties, they stillhave those beasts upfront. M So,
you know, I think it's somethingthey've started to address and are in the
pro I mean, you know,you look at again, the biggest issue,
as you mentioned, is death becausewhen you look at what they have

(34:39):
up front, you know, withThibodeau, I think I think we see
a leap out of him this year. I think He's one of the most
underrated players in the league right now. Leonard and dex are obviously fantastically.
You take those four guys, youcould put them up against a lot of
fronts in the league, um andthey'll and they hold up. It's just
behind that and given the contract situationsthat are coming up, it's it is

(35:04):
concerning. And I think, youknow, that's a position where if you
love one of these edge rushers,because there's you know, there's a lot
of depth as you imagined at edgerusher and on this defense live have you
fall in love with one of thoseguys, I wouldn't be shocked if they
end up going that direction in thefirst round because of some of these upcoming
contract issues, like you're talking about, Yeah, I see Miles Murphy's stock

(35:29):
the d N from Clemson fluctuating waytoo much. Like when we were starting
this process back at the beginning ofthe year, He's top fifteen every day
of the week, and now I'mseeing him sliding into the twenties or even
the end of the first round,which I don't think is actually going to
happen. He's a crazy talent.But then you've got guys like Lucas van

(35:51):
Nest, who have just been steadilyclimbing the whole way up. So if
one of those two somehow fall tothe giants, I think how to look
at taking them in round one forsure, and getting back to that theme
of versatility at that position, depthof that position. But I do like
a lot of guys in the midrounds too, like Zach Harrison, Isaiah

(36:13):
McGuire or a couple of guys thatreally stand out to me. Long arms,
good frame, you know, canbe inside, can play outside,
good pass rushing prowess to them aswell. So you know, I think
that we can certainly find people inthe middle rounds. But you know,
it would be nice to start allocatingsome early day two picks or even day

(36:38):
one picks back to the defensive linebecause it would go a long way,
and you know it, it givesyour defense more of a breather, you
know, when you're trying to goup against the likes of a Jalen Hurts
and a Patrick Mahomes like, whenthey can just sit back in the pocket
and take all freaking day to dowhatever they want manipulate a defense, I

(36:59):
mean, that's a huge, hugehinderance you know. So, yeah,
putting the pressure back on them,um, you know, will help the
Giants get a little bit further inthe playoffs at least, absolutely. I
mean, yeah, you look atthe teams that have been successful front they
have It's not just that you knowthat's starting front four. It's it's the
depth, the ability to rotate,the ability to go deep, um,

(37:21):
you know, to go deep intotheir bag from a depth perspective. It
really it really does matter. Andyou know, because he said, these
guys get what they get worn out. Um, you can't just keep the
same guys on the fields. Youhave to be able to rotate up front.
And right now, I think you'reright, Like the Giants really don't
have the ability to do that acrossthe board the way you'd like them to.

(37:44):
Yeah, and not to keep goingback to the Eagles. We're doing
this. Yesterday I thought about it. I thought it that saying it just
not I have to tell you,and I sat myself because I didn't want
to be bringing up the Eagles.But yeah, I mean you look at
just the waves of guys they canbring at you. Yeah, I mean
Jordan Davis in the first round lastyear, backup nose tackle. You know

(38:05):
who's who's drafting a backup nose tacklein the first round when you've got other
holes to fill and you're trying tomake a Super Bowl run like they ended
up doing. But it makes adifference, man, to give you start
as a breather and just to havethat ammout because if you've got an offensive
line that's starting to get a littlebit tired there in the third quarter or
something, and then you could justdrop a fresh body in there going one

(38:28):
hundred miles an hour. I meanthat's going to take a real toll.
Oh yeah, definitely. I actuallyhad a question for you that I wanted
to get your opinion on something becausethis is a guy that you know,
the Giants had a visit with onWednesday, I believe, and who is
I feel like one of the mostcontroversial players in this draft because I feel

(38:50):
people, you know, everybody thathere from they either love him or hate
him and don't think he should beon anybody's born it's Brian Branch. If
he's sitting there at twenty five,what are your opinions of him based on
what you've seen so far and youknow what you studied about him? I
really like Brian Branch. I thinkthe biggest question mark is where is he

(39:13):
going to play? But I thinkto a point that SI was making yesterday
and a wink Martindale defense with BrianBranch being able to disguise him in a
variety of different formats, you know, really confuses a defense or an offense
rather And I think that he's aspecial talent. When I put his tape

(39:34):
on, he's flying all over theplace. He's making plays. And one
of the things I look at whenI'm watching tape too, because I don't
really like watch full games, butI watch like highlight tape. When I'm
looking at a highlight tape, thecontext of when these plays are being made
is a big thing for me.So if you're making these plays in a
blowout game against some lowly like smallschool, you know, I'm not that

(39:55):
impressed. But when it's third andfour teen and the game's on the line,
or it's within a score or somethinglike that, you're going up against
another powerhouse, and that's when youreally step into the frame and have some
of your best moments like that,that goes a long way for me because
I know that you can handle thestage and everything like that, and that's
consistently what I see with Brian Branch. So you know, safety is another

(40:19):
need for the Giants. You know, Julian Love gets his walking papers and
Savior McKinney coming off the ATV injury. You know, hopefully he's able to
bounce back from that. Luckily it'snot like a knee or an ankle or
anything, but you know, yearoff from football basically, we'll see how
that impacts his game. But weneed a safety man. We haven't had

(40:42):
incredible safeties and too long that Icouldn't even reference it, you know what
I mean. And I think BrianBranch solves a lot of those problems.
And he's another one where it's likehe could go at like fifteen or somewhere
in like the mid teens, orhe could drop down into the twenties.
But I don't see any scenario wherehe's gonna go outside of the first round,

(41:02):
particularly in a draft where it's notsuper deep for safeties. I think
he's a really unique player. Hebrings a lot to the table and he
loves football, man, Like youcould see that on the tape too,
and that's like a real prioritization inmy eyes as well, it's like you
gotta love the game. You've gotto be passionate about playing, Like I
want to see you getting gassed upafter you light somebody up behind the line

(41:24):
of scrimmage, like if you're notreally gung ho about it, Like you
know, Jalen hurts a great youknow, flip side of the coin there,
quiet demeanor, not talking a lotof trash. Let's his play and
do the talking for him. Butwhen you're an enforcer on defense and really
trying to get the blood pumping andthe rest of the team, if you

(41:49):
can make a big play from thesafety spot like Branch can do, I
mean, that's just gonna set everybodyup for more success and more horsepower going
into it. So I really likeBrian Branch. If he's available for us,
and the likes of a Miles Murphyor Van Ness or somebody doesn't fall
right into our laps, then Ithink he's got to be in the conversation

(42:09):
with like you know, Keeley Ringo, Deance Banks, some of these other
cornerbacks that are also going to beheavily considered for the Giants. They are
twenty five, But you know,out of the cornerbacks, you think about
it, it's like, all right, Witherspoon, Gonzales. You know,
some of these guys, they're gonnago much earlier. Joey Porter Junior.

(42:29):
Love Joey Porter Junior, but Ihighly doubt that he's going to make it
to us. So then you're gettingthe fourth or fifth corner in the draft,
so to speak, based off ofthe big boards. And Brian Branch
is the first safety you know,like he is that so yeah, you
know, like it definitely comes intoplay now. I'm happy to hear you
say it all that because I viewit the same way. I think he's

(42:52):
a guy in particular where situation reallymatters, and you put him in Wink
Martindale's defense and with how aggressively heloves to use his DBS, especially his
safeties, I think it's a perfectmatch because I think his skill set plays
exactly what into into what we've seenWink Martin Dale do historically, going back
to the defenses with the ravens umyou put it. But again, he's

(43:15):
a guy, you put him ina position in a situation where a team
wants to just you know, kindof keep him back there at safety and
not really moving around, not reallytake advantage of his versatility. I think
he's gonna struggle at times. Andit's it's funny. I know, you
know they're different players in a way, but just I always I always look
at Tyron Matthew when we saw him. I feel like people forgot that this

(43:38):
even happened at this point because hejust completely disappeared there. But when he
went to Houston and they just basicallyplayed him as a traditional he just kept
him back there. You know,deep half of the field will play a
bunch of cover two. We'll leaveyou back there. Um, you know,
use ye at safety he was,he disappeared, He disappeared from the

(44:00):
league, and then he goes toKansas City and they let him be him
and he's a complete He turns intoa complete game wrecker once again. So
I think with Branch, that situationis going to be such a determining factor
for his success, and I thinkWink puts him in the best possible scenario.

(44:21):
I would not be mad at seeingBrian Branches the pick on nine one,
that is for sure. Another positionthat a lot of folks are talking
about for the Giants is linebacker,you know. We yeah, we're missing
pretty much everything on defense at thispoint. We need death at all the

(44:43):
positions. But having that field general, you know, they sign I'm going
to butcher his name, but Okikifrom the Colts, which a lot of
hype around him, good football player, instinctive, fits into the system,
all that kind of stuff, freeagent signing for them. But then you've
got the likes of Jared Davis DarianBeavers coming back off the injury at that

(45:07):
other linebacker spot. And I gota question if that's really gonna you know,
get us over the line at thatposition. So there's a lot of
quality talent in the first couple ofdays. You know, Sanders, Simpson,
Campbell, Henley and some of thoseguys like Henley in particular is incredibly

(45:29):
versatile. I mean he can doeverything at linebacker in a scheme like Wink
would be running. So do youthink that linebacker, you know, might
not be as high of a priorityby comparison to some of the other positions
that we've discussed so far. Buthow big of a need is it to
you right now? Yeah? Iwould agree. I think it's it's not

(45:52):
quite as much of a priority butit is a need. It's a spot
where I think you want to tryto outgrade if you can. I think
it's one you know, you probablyfind some value in the second third round
there. I don't love the ideaof taking off of all linebackers in the
first round unless it's somebody truly trulyspecial, like a Devin White, UM,

(46:14):
somebody like that where you just youknow, or Patrick Willis where it's
just one of these guys where youknow he's just going to be a superstar
off of that. But yeah,I mean I think o'kara kay was a
really nice ad. He's a reallysolid player and instantly upgrades upgrades a lineback
and court. And I think JaredDavis is serviceable. I think he's a

(46:36):
guy you know you definitely want totry to get an upgrade over U.
It's interesting because because again, he'sone of these guys that's kind of a
victim of where he was taking,you know, being a first round pick,
the expectations were way higher for him. I've been scouting him since he
was in high school. Actually,because I did some work UM for rivals
UM working for their Florida affiliate,so UM. I watched his tape as

(46:59):
a high score recruits. I've watchedhim very closely all the way through his
entire football career, and UM,you know, I thought he was a
little bit over you know, overprojected as a recruit. UM. And
I think the same thing. Idon't know, his reputation as recruit just
carried through college and into the draftand he was the first round but I

(47:22):
never really saw him as that guy. UM. But he's a really solid
player. So I think it's kindto the point. It's funny how guys
get so overrated to the point whereeverybody's sours on them, and then they
become underrated. And I think that'sthat's kind of the case for Jared Davis.
This is what he always has been, is what he was. Along
a solid player that you can getby with, UM, but not really

(47:44):
a special talent like people expected himto be. Yeah. Wild that he
was available on a practice squad,you know, after being a first round
pick, and I get that.You know, the Lions had a pretty
strong linebacker room, so he justkind of, you know, felt prey
to that. It is what itis, UM, But yeah, linebacker
is definitely another hole, UM thatI think needs to be addressed, but

(48:07):
probably not super early on unless youknow BPA just falls right into your lap
and it's too hard to pass up. But appreciate the insights. There any
other players that you're really high onm heading into tonight, one that we
haven't talked about yet. I thinkas as Zay Flowers, Jordan Addison.

(48:30):
This receiver class. I know,I said I don't want to jump at
the receivers, and I still dofeel that, but um, this receiver
class is so interesting to me becauseI genuinely have no feel for where these
guys are going to be taken.It seems like everybody's split, everybody's all
over the map when it comes tothese guys. And a lot of it

(48:51):
has to do with the fact thatguys like Addison and Flowers a little under
size, um, and just howyou factor that into the evaluation. But
I think they're two incredibly talented,well rounded receivers, and that's the scenario.
I think if one of those guysfalls to twenty five, I think

(49:12):
that's where I'd I'd be really temptedbecause, um, I think either one
of them, you know, andit sounds crazy given the size limitations,
but skill set wise, they havethe potential to be you know, primary
target. And you know that's that'sthe scenario I think where you really think
about taking a receiver. It's notone of those two guys, I'd be

(49:35):
really hesitant, but one of thoseguys makes it there. I think he
got to think about it. I'mreally against small receivers. Um, It's
just you know, one of thosethings for me where yeah, like I
like one Dell. I like hisskill set, but last year when Si
and I were talking about him onone of our shows and he brought them

(49:57):
up, I'm like, dude,he's gonna get hurt. Like they all
get hurt, you know. Likeit's just it's so difficult to transition as
a small guy from college to thepros and then last in the pros,
especially when you're playing on all theseturf fields that are just going to blow
your knees out every day of theweek, you know, or popping achilles.
I mean, there's so much goingagainst the small receivers. And I

(50:22):
appreciate the separation conversation that day,Ball and Shane like it and all that
kind of stuff, and I understandwhere you're coming from there, but there's
so much risk in something like thatwhere I'd rather wait until round two if
we're really going to prioritize wide receiverand go for a guy like Mingo or
Tillman who is just better built tomake it at the next level of my

(50:45):
eyes, and they might not beas flashy or create as much separation as
an Addison or as a Flowers.But when you're talking about investing first round
draft capital in a prospect that youknow, in all likelihood is not going
to make it through a full careerwithout an injury like that scares the shit

(51:05):
out of me. Yeah, andthat's and that's a fair point, I
think. Um. The way thatwe've seen the game change a little bit
though, and the way that thesereceivers are better protected, I think,
you know, makes me more willingto overlook the size thing, um,
because again, it's just, youknow, it is what it is.
The game has become less physical thanit was just because of the rule changes.

(51:31):
So you know, I think areally key like litmus test that we
saw as far as especially receivers thatare a little bit light in the ass
uh is DeVante Smith and what he'sbeen able to excise that that was a
big question with him, and that'swhere I look at like an Addison is,
you know, similarly, because youknow, the height isn't the concern

(51:53):
as much as just him being reallylight versus is a Flowers where the heights
and issue as well. You know, I think seeing him succeed and be
able to stay healthy for the mostpart shows us that I think things may
be shifting a little bit. Iknow it's hard to just all put it
on a you know, one exampleof one player, and we know obviously

(52:14):
he was an incredibly special player incollege. But I do think, you
know, we are seeing a littlebit of a shift because the rule changes,
which makes me like, if youwere asking this ten years ago,
I'd say, no way, canyou take a guy that size. But
that's one thing, you know,I've tried to be open to over the
years is that the game is constantlyevolving, constantly changing. So don't get

(52:37):
you know, not saying that you'redoing this by any means, because you
bring up a very valid point thathas to be considered. But my thing
is, you know, I madethe mistake with some players a few years
ago where I was kind of youknow, they didn't meet my criteria.
So I look, you know,I overlooked them versus looking at the direction
the league is heading, the waythe league is adapting, and how they

(52:58):
might fit into that. I think, like a Tyreek Hill as everybody's you
know, coveted type. But andhe's a smaller guy, sure, but
he is built, he has gota bick frame, he is powerful throughout.
Like that is not the case formost of these small receivers. And
I think, like that's the biggestdiscrepancy. And I'm rubbed the wrong way

(53:21):
by all these small wide receivers we'vetaken in recent memory, and they all
like Darius, Tony Hurt, RobinsonHurt, you know what I mean,
and like the giants finally changed,So like hopefully we're not blowing out the
knees as bad as as we havebeen um or the hamstrings and the achilles
what what have you in recent memory. But yeah, you know, Kenny,

(53:46):
Yeah, I know, I meanlike it's yeah, you know,
it just seems like every sterling shepherdum on the field. Yeah it's been.
It's been so many of these guys. So I think, you know,
while yes, the smaller guys,do you know, are at more
risk. I think it's just there'sbeen something about their receiver position, whether

(54:07):
it's been the turf or whatever itis. Um their receiver position in that
building just has been a you know, a mountain of injuries for for a
while. Now, yep, itmakes you miss Steve smith Man, Like
just let's let's get Steve smith backin here, some sure hands on third

(54:27):
down. Don't need anything spectacular,just not gonna drop the football when you
need a conversion, Like I wouldjust love to see that, you know,
what happened to them? It seemslike there's so many it's like the
extreme. Now you either have likethe super small guy who's shifty and dynamic,
or you have like a big bodyguy, and we kind of overlook
those those in between, just likeyou know, the guy who's six foot

(54:47):
or six one, like two hundredpounds, like nothing particularly fantastic about them,
but like an an kuom Bolden type, you know, yea, And
there's plenty of them. Am Ithink like Jujus become that guy now,
which is funny because again he's anotherguy his career started so fantasticly that he
got a little bit overrated, andthen people you know, when he didn't

(55:07):
perform up to that point. Again, people just kind of wrote him off
and they hate him because of theTikTok's off and all that. But you
look at what you look what hedidn't in Kansas even his last year in
Pittsburgh, I think he had themost catches on third down of any receiver
in the league. You know,while the yards per reception weren't exactly what
you want and all that type ofstuff, Like he was so reliable and

(55:28):
you saw in Kansas City last year. You know his you know, between
the key third down conversions and thenhis ability to block and do all the
little things. Like those guys arestill out there and they still I think
that's where you can you know,you can find value in those guys too.
And like the mid rounds are infree agency, they're not going to
command you know, the high dollarcontracts, but there's still so much value

(55:51):
there players like that. Absolutely.Well, Matt really appreciate you taking the
time man with us here today goingthrough all this stuff in depth. Obviously
really excited to see how everything shakesout for the Giants and the big Blue
wrecking crew here next week in KansasCity. But thank you so much for

(56:12):
making the time. We really appreciateit. Dave, really appreciate you having
me. You know, I couldtalk about this stuff all day and go
down holes with you, but Iappreciate you having me out. Thanks so
much, dude. We'll see younext week. Appreciate it.