172 - D’yer Coffee Mak’er

Mark Lindsay could not have his morning coffee as the coffee maker broke. So he set out to buy a new machine. On his journey to buy the new machine, he pondered the question of Planned Obsolescence. And we're not talking about just coffee makers here. Look around! We're surrounded by items that have a finite life to them, do we get bang from our buck now-a-days? More and more, products seem to be going the way of this and if not, companies are using proprietary parts that require you to go to them for a repair. There's a lot of
questions on this one so Mark Lindsay and Eloy Escagedo discuss this, and other related topics in this episode of the Trampled Underfoot Podcast. Check it out!

"Two guys from different decades, backgrounds, and opposite sides of the continent discuss life, the universe, and everything. What's the show about? About an hour…"

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You are about to be trampled underfoot. What's going on, Mark, Oh,
it's been a day. Let mejust say it's been a day.
I have whole weeks where everything goesbrilliantly and I never think about it.
I never comment on it, becauseeverything goes the way it should. Right.

(00:25):
Today was not that day. Todaywe had to do two minor purchases,
very small, less than thirty dollarseach. But the point is we
had to make those purchases. Itstarted first thing this morning. I got
up out of bed. Life wasgood. It was raining like a son

(00:48):
of a gun, but hey,it's winter and Oregon. And I made
coffee. Hit the button turned onthe coffee maker, and I came back
in here and kind of sat downand to try to show the cobwebs out
of my brain. About ten minuteslater, like I do, I get
up to go outside, get upto go out in the other room in

(01:08):
the kitchen and get me a cupof coffee. And the coffee maker had
made just enough coffee to cheese meoff. It never finished brew in the
pod, okay, so I hadto take what it did make port and
a cup top the rest off withwater, put it in the microwave heated

(01:30):
up that way. Meanwhile, whilethat's heating up, I'm unplugging and shutting
off and playing around with the coffeemaker. Nothing died over, dead gone
crap. I gotta go buy acoffee maker. The problem is that coffee
maker is about two years old.We just bought another coffee maker, and

(01:53):
that one replaced another coffee maker thatwas about three years old. So all
right, fine, I get mycoffee and I come in here and I
sit down and I'm looking around itstuff. Linda gets up and I tell
her, well, the coffee makerdied. I need to go get a
new coffee maker today. She goes, well, while we're at it,
let's go get a new bathroom scale. I'm like, let's matter with our

(02:15):
bathroom scale. Well, it's doingthis, and it's doing that, and
it's doing the other, and Idon't like it anymore. Let's get rid
of it. And that brought meinto the topic of planned obsolescence and why
we put up with it, Whydo we do it? Why do we

(02:35):
allow it? Now? For Iknow most folks know what planned obsolescence is,
but it goes way back. It'sbasically, there is one reason for
planned obsolescence, and that is formoney, because they know they could make

(02:57):
something that would last fifteen twenty years, but then they will dial back on
that and start using inferior materials orinferior components so that you will become a
repeat customer all that much more quickly. You know. So, where we

(03:23):
used to go down and buy acoffee percolator that was made out of stainless
steel or aluminium or whatever that weput on the stove, and you would
buy one and that would be it. It would last year, entire lifetime.
We got talked into going with theseautomatic drip coffee makers that last.

(03:45):
The first ones lasted maybe ten fifteenyears, but then they learned that they
could start using inferior supplies and inferiorproducts in making these coffee makers, and
something's going to go bad within abouttwo three years. So you go out
by another one. And it's reallystarting to chease me off. When I

(04:06):
think of the number of like littlethings like coffee makers and bathroom scales I
have bought in my lifetime. It'sabsolutely insane. And I'm about ready to
go back to the little percolator becauseI've got one I just ain't gone that
far back yet. Now it bringsabout this entire damn concept of they are

(04:34):
perfectly able to make something that willlast ten years or fifteen years, We're
going to buy another one when itgoes bad, dude to natural causes,
because interview everything break down everything togreat? But why purposely seed that up
with not for that? Said thatagain, why speed up that process if

(05:00):
for no other reason than just formoney. That's the breaking down of things
because of inferior right, but onpurpose or like in a lot of our
electronics, what they'll do is they'llput in a permanent battery which is gonna
wear out, it won't take acharge after so many years, but then

(05:21):
seal up the back of the phoneso you can't repair it. You can't
take it to a shop and havethat back cover removed and have a battery,
new battery put in. They don'twant that. They want you to
buy a new phone or a newtablet. Why do we allow that?

(05:42):
Why do we put up with it? Why don't we complain to the companies
and refuse to buy their products?Oh boy, okay, you're asking me,
Yes, I'm asking for your opinion. Why do we do that because
if US Americans had maps, thenthey'd know where the Iraq is. And

(06:08):
it's a difficult question, you know, and maybe I am putting you on
the spot. It's it's it's it'sa difficult question. It is um.
But the answer I have in mindis so here's here's my answer. It's
it's here's my answer. UM.We There is no wee at the level

(06:29):
of that decision making, right.The we exists as some sort of abstract,
sort of like chart thing. Um. We could be the American public,
or we could be the locals,and since we're not a wee,

(06:51):
we can fall into that category.But in that category we have all sorts
of attitudes and people's decision makings andwhatnot. And so there's no real unity
to put something to bed like thatand say, okay, we're not um.

(07:13):
Yeah. So they have enough abilityto um, to manipulate or or
to use that model because there's nounity in terms of of a wee putting
up with something. You can usethe WII. But there's enough people out

(07:34):
there that aren't don't have the timeto stand up and fight, you know,
right, company acts, and sothey just say, you know what,
I'm just gonna buy another one,and then somebody will stand with a
protest sign. But the other guysat home plane, Nintendo, and so
you can't control. We're basically atthe mercy of our divided, you know,

(08:01):
categories within society. I will agreewith just about everything you said,
and you've given some more examples withouteven knowing it. But the WEI is
made up of individuals, and Iknow I get it. I'm a willing
participant. And I did it againtoday because my coffee maker died. I

(08:24):
want coffee. I wanted coffee tonight, and here it is first pot out
of the brand new coffee maker.So I participated again knowing well, let
me back up for a second.My expectation is that that coffee maker should
at least last five years. It'snot an expensive coffee maker. If it

(08:48):
at lasts two years again and dies, I'm going back to the stainless steel
percolator on the stove and done withit. You know, I've got one,
so there's no investment in that atall. There have been a couple
of and I don't know if I'mwilling to go this route. There have

(09:11):
been a couple of countries that haveenacted laws specifically on electronics and on washers
and dryers and think large appliances,basically saying that a one year warranty isn't
good enough anymore. These people arepaying a lot of money for these items

(09:35):
and they die a month after thewarrant. The one year warranty runs out.
So from now on you will giveAnd there's one France said two years,
and another country that I can't rememberoff the top my head said five
years. You will warrant those productsand you will repair them. On your
other products, you will put alabel giving the average life life expectancy of

(10:01):
this product so that people can lookat it and be more informed when they
shop. Now, I don't knowif I'm willing to go that route,
but like you've been having technological issueswith your computer, which admittedly is pretty
old, but you've also been havingtrouble with your AC unit. Now,
there is no reason why you shouldn'tbe able to take that AC unit out

(10:26):
and take it down to a repairshop and have it work. They have
it worked on, have it repaired. I'm willing to bet you they can't
get parts for it, because that'sanother part of planned obsolescence. You buy
something today and in three years theydiscontinue that model and bring out a new
model, and the parts aren't interchangeable, making it more expensive to fix that

(10:50):
one than it is to go buya new one. That's part of planned
obsolescence, you know. And itjust it chaps my cheeks big time.
And I'm wondering, and this isrhetorical. I don't expect an answer.
Why do we allow that? Whydon't we as individuals just let Samsung no,

(11:16):
I'm not buying your phone because youwon't. I can't go in and
replace the battery in it myself,so I will not buy your phone or
write to Apple and say I amnot buying this laptop because I can't replace
the battery. I have to buya brand new one when this battery dies.

(11:37):
You know it. To me,I get it. I understand it.
It's not a new concept. GeneralMotors, under lead designer Harley Earl,
back in the fifties came up withthe idea of planned obsolescence in styling,

(11:58):
and there was about a ten fifteenyear period where every year every car
looked completely different. It was redesignedevery year. So if you had a
nineteen fifty seven Chevy. It wascompletely different from a fifty eight, which
was completely different from a fifty nine. The problem was it got too expensive

(12:20):
to keep doing that, so theyhad to back away from it. But
in nineteen fifty nine you could seereally easily who had the nineteen fifty five.
Oh you got a four year old, you're driving that old thing.
So it was a matter of style. It wasn't that the cars were falling
apart. I mean there's still fiftyfive and fifty six fifty seven Chevyes on

(12:43):
the road today. It was justnow it's out of style and it just
got too expensive for them to keepthat up. But that's just one example.
It's craziness how we're we're so willingto accept that. Wow, we
lived in a disposable society. Yeah, because we keep buying the disposable products.

(13:07):
You know. It just it justYes, I'm on a rant.
Yes i'm cheesed off today, butthere's no reason I should have had to
buy a new coffee maker after twoyears. That's crazy, and I'll leave
it at that. Yeah, it'sa it's a tough thing because we're stuck
in it and we can adapt.You don't have to have. So for

(13:33):
instance, I could sit here likemy AC's not blowing the cold are and
I live in Florida. I've gotthe wall AC, so there's various ones
around the house. I can goto one room or the other and not
make the purchase, or I canpull it and have it repaired, if

(13:54):
not by an official shop, morelikely not an official shop, there's plenty
of people that can do the job. You might have to purchase the parts,
you know, through them, andthat gets added to the bill,
But that could happen. But Icould also likewise go to the local AC

(14:16):
plays and buy an AC, chuckthat one and pop one in and depending
on which one. Weighing the optionsand all the variables, including price,
availability, all these things, thenI make the choice. Suffering the heat,

(14:39):
get an extra fan or two,or purchase a new one or this
or that. And we're lucky tohave choices in order to do that.
The AC has been around probably sincetwo and ten. This AC okay,
well, it might just need ashot of free on. You should be

(15:01):
able to find that out. Youshould be able to take it out,
take it to a repair shop,and him just troubleshoot it and say yeah,
it needs free on But unfortunately thisis a sealed system. I can't
recharge it. No, you canurge field systems. Well, but you
get my point. You personally can'tdo that because you don't have the equipment

(15:24):
and what have you. But ifyou could, if it had valves instead
of soldered joints, you could getin and recharge it, go down and
buy a tank or what have youand deal a quick recharge on it.
Well you could also another layer isthat, Yeah, you could do that.
You can even buy the taps yourselfand the equipment, but then you're
in all this money exactly. Andthat's what I mean by making it more

(15:48):
expensive to repair that when then gobuy a new one. So but if
you could go buy a twenty dollarskit and hook up the hoses and recharge
it yourself, I personally I thinkthey would make more money doing that selling
the repair kits for them than theydo making new new acs. Then again,

(16:12):
no they don't, because when itdies, it dies, and now
you've got to go buy a newone, or as you said, take
one out of another room that youdon't use quite as often. No,
people do people. I have noproblem. Look, I have no problem
with in a broad sense, Ihave no problem with none of it.

(16:32):
If a company wants to produce crappyproducts, right, I feel that they
should have the right to produce thecrappy products. The the onus depending on
what the scenario is, but theonus of quality and purchase is on the

(16:56):
purchase arth and if an item isnot to their liking, to commit the
travesty of buying it again or tellingtheir friends to go and buy from this
junk, you know company. SoI think that they should be able to

(17:18):
put out, um whatever they wantin their best interest to put out good
things. But save for that thatyou're saying, where proprietary things that you
can't reum you know, rerepair andwhatnotum, I think that they should be
able to do that. The companiesand people should be able to independently realize

(17:42):
that no, this is junk andthey can move on to another thing.
I mean, there's no monopoly onany of these things. So I don't
have a problem, you know,but some things are proprietary, like I'll
give you a for instance, onthe bottom of the iPhone, there's a
there's an example of that. It'sright there where the plug is, where

(18:03):
you plug it in to charge itup or to plug in accessories or what
have you. Where are two screws. Yeah, you can't buy a screwdriver
to fit those screws because they looklike Philip screws. But instead of having
four slots, they have five.And it's a proprietary tool. Even Apple
repair shops don't have them. Yeah, so they want you to buy a

(18:26):
new phone rather than fix that one. But it goes beyond that. There
will be times where you know,you turn on your computer and all of
a sudden, your PDF reader isneeds to be updated. Well, you
can choose not to update it,but now certain things won't work, even

(18:49):
though the code it could work,but they don't want you to do that.
They want you to download the newupdate that also has tracking built in
so they can tailor advertising to yoursearch habits and things like that. It's
there's nothing wrong with the old one, they just want you to get the

(19:10):
new one, so the old versionis obsolete. Yeah, you know,
and when we're talking about physical materialthings like a refrigerator that should last you
a minimum of twenty to twenty fiveyears. A fridge that's a big item.

(19:32):
Now if it dies in five yearsnow, we've just tripled the amount
of waste that we've created because youhave all the packaging for it, you
have the fridge itself. Yes,you can break it up in some parts
can be scrapped and melted down.The metal casings and all the aluminum and
copper and stuff like that in there, the motors and what have you.

(19:53):
All that can be recycled and reused. But there's a ton of plastic,
a ton of fiberglass that can't reused. So it's wasteful to make things disposable.
And yet we seem to have ourpriorities pointing in the wrong direction.
Out here in the West. We'reworried about plastic shopping bags and plastic straws,

(20:18):
while we're throwing away huge chunk ofplastics because the thing broke and you
can't buy a replacement part for it, And there are no repair shops even
for the smallest little thing, youknow. I mean, your dad used
to be a TV repairman, right, Yeah, was the last time you

(20:38):
saw a TV repair shop? Dothey even exist anymore? I'm sure there's
individuals that do things like that.And some places that are general electronic type
repairs. Yeah, I mean it'sit's it's insanity to me that they've put

(20:59):
entire industries out of business, likeTV repair and radio repair and things like
that, just simply because they wantyou to throw that away and buy a
brand new one. Yeah, Iget it. I mean I think that
this is pretty much the topic ispretty much um like a bookend bookended,

(21:21):
because we know we live in it. There's nothing we can do about it
only on an individual level. Orwe can force the hand of government to
create exceptions by laws and regulations inorder to force companies to act accordingly in
particular things. I mean, thoseare the variables in our society. We're

(21:44):
stuck in it, you know.So there are a few things where government
has stepped in. For instance,I didn't know this, and looking up
some things on planned obsolescence, somethings I didn't know. For instance,
it is mandatory I law that theseat belts in your car have to be
warranted for five years, that theyare not going to break down or fall

(22:07):
apart for five years. I hadno idea that that was the case.
But there are no other laws aboutplanned obsolescence on the books. I mean,
so basically, somebody can make thingsas durable or as crappy as they
want to. Yeah, yeah,want. Personally, I think that it

(22:33):
is a case of caveat emptor youknow, let the buyer beware. If
you see something for nineteen dollars anda comparable thing that's made of plastic,
and a comparable item that's made outof metal for forty five dollars, you
can probably guess the reason why thatone's only nineteen bucks, that it's not

(22:57):
going to be as higher quality.If you go into the maker's favorite store
of purveyor of Asian imports and youbuy something with a motor on it that
sounds like a busted chainsaw, youcan be pretty sure of what you're getting.

(23:18):
You know, you're the guy thatcheaped out and spent sixty dollars on
a saw that normally would cost youthree hundred and twenty five. You can
pretty much guarantee you're buying something that'smade to be used once and thrown away.
So I agree with let the buyerbeware, But I also think that

(23:40):
we as individuals have the responsibility onthat, you know, if we're and
that's why my question was why dowe accept that and not what do we
do to change it? Because solong as we continue to keep buying the
crap, they're going to keep makingit. Yeah, and we're gonna keep
doing that. You know that?Well, yeah, sure, you know,

(24:02):
you're you're, you're saying all thesethings. I get it, and
and you're and you're and you're sortof like laying the groundwork. But you
know, yeah, exactly, youknow, because well, we don't want
to pay two hundred and twenty fivedollars for a five piece socket set.
We want to go down to theElchipo place and play six ninety nine.
No, So I think that we'vewrapped this this topic because look, there's
nowhere to go with it, becauseyou know what I'm saying, there's nowhere

(24:26):
to go with this because the onlyoptions on the table is why, so
what are the options? So justto seeople around my option, my option
as an individual, I guess whatI'm saying is don't fall for it.
Don't fall for it. I mean, you get what you pay for.
And in my case, for instance, we're buying a coffee maker every two

(24:48):
years, I choose not to participateanymore. Now I did this morning.
How much did you purchase a coffeemaker for twenty nine dollars? So not
quite thirty bucks? Okay, Sodivide that into but you know the days
in the year from two years ago, Um, what is it like close

(25:10):
to eight hundred What is it eighthundred and something? What's two years in
days? Oh yeah, seven hundredand thirty okay, So divide you know,
you're twenty some odd bucks into that, and that's your your expense,
plus the gas to get there andso on, I mean, plus the

(25:32):
inflation of the devaluation of the dollarright in consideration too, So you're basically
paying I mean in those terms nothing, but it's not nothing but your Yes,
I get it, I get whereyou're going with that. But I've
also chucked about three or four bigplastic coffeemakers into the landfill, and a

(25:56):
bunch of the packaging and all thatother good stuff. Yeah, the boxes
get recycled, but that's about it. My stainless steel coffee percolator cost me
about seven bucks thirty five years ago. So that's what I'm going back to.
That's what I mean when I sayI choose not to participate anymore.
I'm not buying another cell phone.I'm not buying another tablet. I'm not

(26:19):
buying another laptop. You know,my laptop is pretty old. I mean
it's twenty thirteen, and I cantake the battery off of that and buy
another one. It's not built inwhere I can't get to it, so
you know, just basically, ifit's not users serviceable, I don't want

(26:42):
it. Yeah, yeah, okay, I mean I don't want it.
That's that's reasonable, and a lotof people are are like that. And
frankly, I don't want to look, I don't want to buy anything.
I'm waiting. I just I wantmy computer and my AC Well, actually

(27:03):
I don't want to, but butthis is an important thing. But other
than that, you know, ifI make a decision to buy or not
buy or buy the cheapo suppose,I mean, I deal with the consequences
myself, and you know, thenext time I have a different consequence.
And that's true. Now you askme about government involvement, I would support

(27:26):
one thing and one thing only onthis score, right, And they make
they make all kinds of warning labelsfor everything already on our packaging. I
would be in favor of a latesomething on the back of the box or
at the bottom of the hang tagfor appliances, that says whether it's user

(27:51):
serviceable or not, just so youcan make a decision. Now, a
lot of times you look on theback of the item itself, it'll say
no user serviceable components inside, butyou don't know that till you get it
out of the box and look onit. Just put that out on the
label that way that I can makea more informed decision. But that that

(28:12):
that that I mean, there aresome industries that already do that. One
of the things we bought today wasa bathroom scale, and on most of
the well on all the boxes aone manufacturer it said right on the outside
of the boxes requires two triple Abatteries or requires two double A batteries.
But other manufacturers didn't have any ofthat stuff. I can make an informed

(28:36):
decision on that. Now, theydid that on their own. So I
bought from that brand knowing that Ican replace a battery by myself, you
know, So that's a bonus forthem. Now. I'm not saying that
they need to make a label thatsays this takes three double A bad wis

(29:00):
or anything like that, but itshould at least tell you whether or not
it's user serviceable. Okay, Imean I disagree with with with having some
sort of thing where they have todo anything. UM. I just simply
disagree with it on ethics alone,on principle alone, although that that stuff
exists in other categories. But wecould and we could argue whether that you

(29:26):
know, you said ethics. Wecould argue whether keeping that uh information private
is ethical or not. And younot knowing whether it's user serviceable, we
could argue whether that's ethical or not. No know what I'm saying. That
principle For me, according to myUM belief system, it's it's it's very

(29:51):
it's it's preferable. To have allthe labels with all the information of everything,
in my opinion, is preferable,but preferable to me. I don't
want to have a company have todo that. I prefer to have the
choice of having a multitude of companiesand products that some will cater to their

(30:14):
customers better and others not so much. And I can say, Okay,
you guys did me wrong this thistime. Guess what I'm not dealing with,
and you're going to get a badyou know, reputation from it.
And I'm not the only one.If if a company does bad, right,
word gets around. So, yes, you're right, you're right about
that word gets around. But whatthe third party, namely people creating laws

(30:38):
and codes and such and agencies inorder to create this new category of filing
cabinets in some government building or oncomputers and all that stuff's already there,
believe me, No, no,it's not. Yes, Consumer Products Safety
Commission. Well, any new thingthat you build now you have new information

(31:02):
that you have to Now you havenew agents and new inspections and new and
stuff, and it doesn't need tobe it doesn't need to be inspected except
for one time, and that's justfor compliances for something. Now, I'm
not saying I'm not going to costanything. If you're if you're saying that
it's it's no big deal, I'msaying it's no big deal. If you're

(31:26):
if you're saying it's no big deal, it's just an addition and and and
and that's it. Um, thenI'll go ahead and take your work because
because it falls right in with thetruth and labeling that we already have,
the go ahead and do it.Then right, you know, yeah,
we already have that. You can'tclaim that something is in a box that

(31:47):
isn't in that box. You know, if you advertise like supplements, okay,
supplements are not regulated except they're labeling. Is if you say it's vitamin
E, there has to be vitaminE in each one of those tablets,
okay, And that's just truth inlabeling. So that's already there. Yeah,

(32:09):
but that falls under the category ofLook, I'm gonna I'm gonna like,
let's move on from this, becauseI'm just gonna say this. I'm
gonna say this one thing. Thereis something called fraud that's been there even
before these agencies were around and willbe there long after. If if it's
so one thing is fraud where youcan't say, here, I'm selling you

(32:32):
a toaster and it's like um,some sort of like kitchen spoon. And
because it's hidden in the past,I mean that, let's not go there.
All I'm saying is this, ifthere's no extra nothing that to implement
that, no burden on the companies, no burden on the god, there's
no burden, then it doesn't mattereither way. If there's a burden,

(32:52):
and if an agency has to getinvolved. I don't want it. The
only burden would be to their reputationbecause if you have a label on there
that says it's not serviceable by theend user, m I'm not gonna buy
it, so your sales are gonnadump. So that's the only burden that
I can see. Well, Imean, I don't look, I have

(33:15):
my opinion on it, and itgoes to the broader question of of government
involvement. We're not gonna go therebecause this you're bringing in government because either
they self, they self do this, and you're never gonna get if somebody,
if you have a self restriction orself labeling or self whatever category.

(33:38):
Out of a hundred companies, youmay have a slew of them that will
do it, and you may havesome that won't do it because people companies
are people, and people decide differentthings depending on their interests, whether they're
right or wrong. So you'll haveall this. The only way to sort
of secure a sort of like uhsingularity like like like just the same across

(34:02):
the board um is through a punishmentsystem enforcement slash, but punishment system where
if you don't do what you're supposedto, you get So there's all these
things, and it goes to thequestion of that, yes, there's millions
of examples. I don't know millions, but there's examples of government already regulating

(34:22):
a bunch of things. This isjust another regulation. And I just and
whether or not it's it's onerous onthe companies, um in in in truth
or in your opinion or in mind. I personally write out the app outset
just seeing an institution saying you haveto do something already an extra something is

(34:45):
already a no no for me,I could imagine for other people. Um,
so you know what I'm saying.So we're going into like like,
um, well, unless unless youunleash, unless you open up the gates
and you want to go there,will go there. You know. Now
there is a lot of self policingalready because for Inslason, Yes, if

(35:06):
if you look on like a consumerelectronics or anything that plugs into the wall,
you will see the seal from Underwriter'slaboratories. You know that you well
listed this meets all safety, this, that and the other. That is
not mandatory. They don't have toget that seal, but they do because

(35:30):
they know people look for it andit protects them. From certain liability if
you plug thirteen things into one extensioncord and that thing gets hot and starts
fire across your carpet. If everyindividual thing is you well listed, it

(35:51):
comes down to you. You're theone that plugged it all in. If
everything has met all the safety requirements, and there's that warning label right,
they're on the thing saying be carefulabout plugging in a lot of objects.
You know it limits their liability.So there is some self policing there.
And again certain I don't remember whostarted it, but certain brands will tell

(36:15):
you right on the outside of thepackage requires four double A batteries. So
now that you've got this thing,I don't know if you remember Christmas morning,
waking up and opening up your toyrobot and oh it needs batteries,
and of course everything's closed because it'sChristmas. Yeah, well, some company
decided to put on the box requiresfour detail batteries. You can grab them

(36:37):
while you're grabbing the toy robot andgo home and then everybody's happy. I
don't know about you, but Iusually ended up with three or four packages
of batteries in my Christmas stock Again, I thought, oh boy, I
got something good. You know,that's cool. So I'm not so full
of myself that I can't say whenthings is right. You guys that are
companies that are putting the battery requirementson the outside of the box so we

(37:00):
can see it in the store whenwe're passing the batteries, we can grab
the right ones. You're doing itright, Thank you. But yeah,
we want to move on. Wecan move on. I just I just
I just got cheesed off about Iwant to move on. I want to
move on because the problem with thisis not UM. For me is not

(37:22):
just um well replaceable items plastic cheaplymade so that it funds an industry.
The problem for me is that wherewe're going with it is to speak to
can can I just say this?Let me just say this? Oh no,
you go ahead, you go ahead, well do I was more on

(37:45):
the wondering about us as people,because we complain and we moan about the
amount of waste we're generating, andwe complain about the disposable society we live
in, and plastic is the enemy, and we got to save the planet.
But what do we do? Yeah, but it's it's individuals. Let

(38:07):
me Let me stop we talk somuch behind the scenes. You already have
so much opinions on all those subjects, and you're and you're being very like
balanced and zen. And that's that'sreally infuriating. Actually, it's infuriing because
because you have opinions that are quiteyou know, you know, in different
directions. Um, and yet you'rebeing very you know, like, um,

(38:30):
Jedi Knight and and and and Ican't. I can't be Jedi knightcause
I have to go ahead and goahead because it's hypocrisy for us to get
bent out of shape about plastic strawsand plastic bags when that is not the
majority of the problem, I guessis my problem. And my problem is

(38:51):
with people. Okay, there youhave it. Yeah, finally, yeah,
my problem is with people. Andif you wanted to an example of
that, thank you. Wait waitwait wait wait, thank you. It's
such a negative. It's actually quitethe aggressive stance to take what you just

(39:14):
said. But I feel within thata deep fountain of relief from all the
yoda, the yoda that you were. You just came out and like spilled
it out, and I'm like,I'm trying. Now, I'm with you.
Mark, Let's now I'm with you. I'm trying to make it relatable
and get people to think about it, you know, without without pointing fingers.

(39:38):
No, see, I have anokay, so now I will point
fingers and say what are we doing? What are we doing? Come on,
man, do you believe here?Let's get into this. Do you
believe that people are smart enough accordingto you? I know the answer to

(40:06):
the according to you, to maketheir own decisions and make the right ones
the public at large. Yeah,and to make end to make the right
decision. I think they're smart enoughto make a decision, But to make
the right decision is subjective. SoI can't go there, um because you

(40:31):
know, maybe me buying that ElChapo coffee maker two years ago wasn't the
right decision, but while given theoptions that I had at the time,
maybe it was the right decision.It's subjective. You know. We'll wait
a second. You enjoyed it fortwo years, I did, and I

(40:54):
and I hope to enjoy it fortwo more. Down, you enjoyed it
for two years. The inconvenience ofit conking out, well, we don't
want anything to conk out that wepurchase. In reality, we don't want
any conking out because what good isthat? So we don't want now we
we we were aware of the conkingout probability. You just don't want it

(41:21):
so um close to the date ofpurchase, which is a very a very
it's it's it's let me just say, it's a very reasonable thing to expect
from a product. And hence youget into your problem. But um,
you're saying people and making decisions insuch in this this and that, okay,

(41:43):
go ahead ahead. Part of itwas, yes, the fact that
it conked out. The other partof it was make it to where I
could take it apart, so maybeI can fix it, Okay, okay.
Yeah. So we can't control companiesgenerally speaking. Yeah, so we
can't control. We can influence throughpopular demand or or infamy, um,

(42:08):
the direction of a company. Wecan't. We can do individual protests and
call the company like I did recentlyancestry dot com. I have my whole
family tree with individual you know,paper trails in each icon and you can
navigate. They went and change thewhole layout of how you navigate the actual

(42:31):
tree where you have to click onearrow, open one arrow, and now
instead of being able to click andopen up and see the vast ocean of
different um the whole ancestors. Nowyou have to in order to get that
same view from as before. Youhave to click one arrow at a time
to expand. Expan, Expan,Expan, expand. And I wrote them,

(42:52):
and I called them on the phone. Yeah, and I lay I
laid it out on them, justone guy from millions of users. If
they lose revenue and a majority oflosers, and of users and losers,

(43:14):
a majority of users drop out,like I'm fixing to do, I'm gonna
have just the basic run of themill because I'm not you know, they
did something that I disagree with.So if they're gonna if a company,
and this is just an example,if they do something and enough people hate
it, they're gonna feel it becausewhat they're doing, I mean, it's

(43:36):
just the whole capitalistic of fun.Yes, and that you're one hundred percent
right at the differences. You're lettingthem know why. We have to do
that. We have to let themknow why. And believe me, the
people that make these coffeemakers. Whenthis when conks out and I have to
go back to my stainless steel percolator, they will get an email from me

(43:57):
letting me letting them know that I'mnot purchasing another one of their coffeemakers ever,
because replacing one every two years isridiculous, not happening. Well,
see, now you're a threshold,and my threshold and other people's so my
threshold of what I accept on thatUM service. Yeah, that I'm not

(44:20):
happy with now. Um, allmy information is there and everything you know,
and like all the cousin matching,like, everything's there. But they
went in and touched because they've alwaysmade little planned obsolescence. They changed everything
for the same let me change,don't let me because I don't lose.
They've made tweaks, but they've nevertouched the tree. And the tree is

(44:43):
kind of like home base. Butit's home base to me, maybe for
a lot of people out there,and you can see it. People take
the test just to see what theyare. Oh look, I'm I'm thirty
percent Northwestern European and thirty percent ofthis and this, and that's what they
care about. And so but there'sa lot of people that care about doing

(45:05):
the tree stuff. It's important tome, but to a whole slew of
people it's not important at all.In fact, even if if if,
if it never the feature never existed, nobody would be none the wiser nor
care um, because they're into justsaying, hey, look, guys,
i'm this, this isn't that.But they don't care about the one aspect

(45:25):
of genealogy, right um, Andthe company is catering to this whole group
of different types of interest. Um, I'm unhappy with it. I let
them know as much. And andand what do I do? I can't
do anything other than say it right, I'm not gonna so I have limited

(45:47):
and if people don't join me inthe even sign the petition, well,
and I was going to get intothat. You don't know how many other
people have joined you, because that'snothing that they're going to have been a
public unless they do a mea culpapost and say, you know what,
we've heard you. We've received hundredsof thousands of letters and emails and complaints

(46:10):
in this, that and the other. We're going to give you the option
to go back to the old interface, or at least give you the option
to have one button where you canclick on the whole thing. You know,
so things like that do work.And I'm one hundred percent for it.
You and believe me, I'm amajor proponent of that, because you

(46:30):
do have to let people know.Millions of people don't go to that website
every day. Millions of people leavethat website every day. Millions of people
join that website, but they haveno idea why. If people start leaving
and letting them know why that's different, that's when they take notice. Maybe

(46:52):
we messed up. Yeah, youknow, but you have to follow up.
You have to let them know,and you have and you're doing it
the right way. I mean,so you know, it's kind of like,
go ahead, I'm sorry. No, I'm gonna say. If you
go into a sandwich shop and it'sa crummy sandwich, millions of people pass

(47:13):
that sandwich shop every day and neverbother to go in. If you let
them know I had a bad experience, here's the problem. The meat was
bad and this was bad and thatwas bad. So I'll not be back.
Don't don't give me a new one. Don't want it again, thanks
very much. You need Maybe theycorrect off, maybe they will exactly,
maybe they will correct the issue.But but the at the end of the

(47:35):
day, they can go and andand and just the same, keep on
going um and do whatever they want, and the consequences all depend on them
and their money making. So exactlyto me, that's the only valid um
use of of of reward. Andnow if they do something fraudulent, well

(48:00):
yeah, that's different. Then there'syeah, then you have the courts too,
you know, to seek remediation.But I get my brain defaults too.
They can't fix it if they don'tknow something's broke. You know,
if they don't know that there's aproblem. As far as they're concerned,
there's no problems to be fixed.And that's why it also depends on your

(48:23):
you know, if you go inromping and stomping and getting all cheesed off,
that may happen once a day,that may happen once a year.
Yeah, and most folks will justroll, it'll roll right off their back.
But if you tell them, look, there's an issue, here's the
issue, or wanted to let youknow so that you could fix it then

(48:43):
move on with life, that's adifferent story entirely. But but people can't
fix something if they don't know's there'sa problem. At this stage in the
in the conversation, I mean,we've we've been on this topic, we
might as well keep it. Soall mentioned this this thing. I'm not
too happy with the topic because it'sa frustrating topic. Is UM. I'll
say this, UM in the nineteeneighties, this is an example of what

(49:07):
you're saying with the labeling and whatnotin the nineteen eighties, and and and
things have variation all across the boardin every category and subcategories, but there
are similarities. And here's a similarsort of suggestion that was made that was

(49:30):
implemented, implemented in the eighties.UM. In the eighties rock and roll.
Let's add some rock and roll tothis, UM, UM CDs and
cassettes and albums. UM. Therewas an explosion of like UM, the
heavy metal and also the rap usinga lot of UM cuss words and things

(49:50):
of that nature, and maybe themesthat were a little bit on the phrase
of what the previous generation would haveeven imagined that would go in a in
a album. Yeah, and soa bunch of UM, concerned women UM,
headed by Tipper Gore, the wifeof Algore, UM, formed a

(50:14):
coalition a coalition of concerned mothers UM, in order to protect their children from
demonic evil, heavy metal and masochisticand the prey depravity. When it comes
to the rap and um heavy metalmusic with the albums and the people with

(50:35):
their lipsticks and their hairs, youknow, and the everything, they looked
all outrageous and and um. Theythere were committees and congress and people testifying
and there were private debates. Uh. One of the people that self um
censored UM to a degree was FrankZam although he didn't call itself censoring.

(51:01):
He put all his lyrics on theback cover of his album, which his
lyrics can be quite UM. Hedid that so that people know exactly what
they're getting, right, So hehad ideas about that. But UM,
he had debates with with these um, these pro labeling people. The solution

(51:22):
was that to put a label parentalwarning on the label, and the idea
was that that way parents could bettermake decisions for their children. UM.
Kind of like the movie theaters andthis and that stage, the rock and
rollers were all up in arms,the rappers were all up in arms,
and your your you know, coalitionof concerned mothers were like, no,

(51:46):
we need this, we need this, we need we need this. UM.
There's some great debates on it onYouTube. With Napa making some great
points and another point another excellent onewith d Snyder too, and when with
these night let me just finish,I'm gonna wrap up now. And the
decision was finally made, and itcame to the point where the labels were

(52:07):
implemented on rock and roll albums,and the idea of the label in the
purview of these concerned mothers was thatparents would make the right decisions for sight
and what ended up happening, althoughthere was that solution that they thought was
appropriate, because they're thinking, they'rethinking that other people are thinking like they're

(52:35):
thinking. They think that what's goodto them is apparently has to be good
to at least a huge majority ofpeople. And they may be right to
a degree, but they don't takeinto account that people out there in the
ether go from one extreme to theother and their preferences on every single category

(52:58):
imaginable to man kind. And there'sno one human being with a brain lodged
inside there. They're they're the casingof their skull that can priview, that
can that can know ahead of timeor imagine what, let alone one person
or a thousand people, or tenthousand people or a million or three million

(53:22):
will decide concerning religion, politics.UM so none of that. Well,
what consequence that happened was that kidspreferred the label. But because that that
basically signaled just like rated R movies, if you go and see a movie

(53:44):
and you see the PG, PGcan be a great movie. But when
you see are you know that there'sgonna be some heavy duty violence or some
some some other you know, uh, scandalous things on the on the on
the you know, balance of that. Um so you're like, oh,
that's probably has a little bit moreor uh this and that going on,
not necessarily not necessarily so. Butin the case of music, the kids

(54:06):
went fricking. I was one ofthem. I didn't want the brand.
I didn't want the one with thesticker and all sorts of albums where everything
was labeled with it. So sowhen we make more sessions for many people,
um, like an agency would do. Um, the consequences that people
are gonna go ahead, just likeprohibition anything. These people that have this

(54:32):
this this this moral you know andethical and thing for the rest of the
population, like the rest of thepopulation or a bunch of monkeys, Um,
they make they can think that butit's not it's not real. What
it is is they are controlling andcontrol freaks, and they want things ordered
because in their mind they can justifyit. I can see both sides,

(54:58):
because there is a movie system,there's a TV reading system, there's a
video game reading system. Music fellthrough the cracks, so I can see
that. But I can also seeyour point, and it goes beyond that.
The kids want, oh, it'sgot the label. I want that
one. I don't want the otherone without the label. I don't the
one with the label. Then itcomes down to mom and dad. Mom

(55:21):
and dad make the decisions because theyhave the money. But it went beyond
that. It was it failed miserably, not just because the kids wanted the
one with that label. There weregroups and musicians who made the entire cover
was that label. Yeah, thatwas the front album art was that label.

(55:44):
So that little label didn't mean anything. The entire album was plastered with
that label. It backfired on himbig time, and it was dropped.
That label is no longer printed.It was dropped because of the ridiculousness involved.

(56:06):
People saw that it was a sideshow, It was a circus. Nobody
took it seriously. Now there weresome parents who said, yeah, I
don't know. I don't know.I don't want Susie listening to this,
just as there are some parents wholook at a video game like Grand Theft
Auto and say, Bobby, you'refour, this is a bit mature for

(56:29):
you. Come back over here tothis end of the video game rack.
You know. So when it comesto kids, parents who don't know.
I mean, all my mom knewabout led Zeppelin was she didn't like to
be screamed at. She had noidea what their music was like. She

(56:50):
had no idea about their lyrical content. She couldn't say anything. She never
told me I couldn't buy a ledZeppelin record. All she could tell me
was put the headphones on or turnthat cramp down. That was all she
could say. They never tried tocensor me as far as bringing home music
or anything like that. She wasstill approved. She wouldn't let me go

(57:13):
to an R rated movie. Butand oh man, I want there were
so many movies I wanted to see. What she didn't know is I went
anyway with other friends. But thepoint being was that whole scheme backfired,
and sometimes that's the only way toget rid of something like that is to

(57:35):
ram it so far down their throatthey choke on it. Yeah, then
they changed their minds to go,well, you know what, maybe this
was kind of stupid. But peopledouble down. Yeah, some people do
double down in general in general.And the problem is that it's not wrong
to double down. Necessarily, it'snot right to double down. Depend Everything

(57:57):
depends on the perspective of the personum on how much there will, how
much pain there will, or whatyou say, what hill they're willing to
die on, or what you say. It's all relative. Um. And
because everybody's operating from their particular umvantage point um and self interest or lack

(58:22):
thereof, we have this mess thatis gonna be a constant, which is
people constantly pulling and tugging at differentideas, different measures, different um.
What's what's what's decent, what's notdecent, what's ethical? Um. You're

(58:42):
going to have a continuum of ofcontradictions amongst the population and pockets of and
because of that, just to toI guess, round it up and because
of that, to go back toyour original original thing um. The solution
to a problem where you know thisthis sort of like recyclable what was the

(59:05):
term you used? Planned obsolescence.So this idea with planned obsolescence, we're
in it and there's a bunch ofitems, I mean countless items that nobody
escapes on every count because we're it'sliterally the junk that our lives are built

(59:29):
around, and so we're stuck init. Yeah, and that's where I
was trying to go with this wasunstick yourself because at the end of the
day, we're the ones that makeit happen. We are the ones who
buy the products. You know,I'm not saying go out and buy the
more expensive stuff, just look foran alternative. Now, if you need

(59:52):
a screwdriver, you need a screwdriver, and nothing else is going to do.
You can play around with a butterknifeif you want, but all you're
gonna do is mess up the screwand screw up a butter knife. So
I'm not saying that at all.What I'm saying is is that check out
the alternatives and do a little bitof homework because, for instance, me

(01:00:14):
with the coffee maker, Yeah,I could go down to a restaurant supply
store and I could buy a twothousand dollars professional grade coffee maker. But
to what end when I could buya nine dollar which I already have,
stainless steel percolator and not worry aboutcoffee makers at all. So all I'm

(01:00:37):
saying is, let the buyer beware, do a little bit of research,
and I guess, don't complain aboutbeing a disposable society and continue to buy
disposable products. You know that's problematicin itself. I see, I see

(01:00:57):
the solutions, or I see thosethose, especially that one M I say,
keep complaining if you don't complain ifit's legit. Yeah no, even
if no, I say, thisis where we differ on this point,
I say, no, I'm notsaying that I prefer this, But in

(01:01:21):
terms of the principle of the matter, if it is in your heart two
unreasonably complain about something that you hadtotal control to avoid, and you will
appear stupid as hell in complaining becauseit's circular. But that's your your thing.

(01:01:43):
Freaking double down it and go onit. If you get the light
shined in your light bulb head andyou realize the errors of your ways,
so be it too. All I'msaying is, unless so I don't like,
for the public at large, dothat which is in your nature to
and double down on at fivefold ifthat's what you so desire. But if

(01:02:07):
you're an individual and you're maybe myfriend, or you're maybe my family member,
or maybe I have invested something inyou and our relationship and our friendship,
I will give you the vessel.But to the public at large,
um, the public at large isbasically no one and everyone and yeah,

(01:02:29):
and and and so I I don'tyou know what I'm saying. I don't
in terms of that. Yeah,you have the right to say whatever you'd
like to say, But it's hypocriticalto sit there and complain about a disposable,
disposable society when you keep buying disposablegoods. So either do your research

(01:02:50):
and buy better goods and stop partakingin the disposable society. Now, true,
we are trapped. We are atthe mercy of the companies because they're
going to put out what they wantto put out. But where there's an
alternative look for it. You know, obviously there's no such thing as a
perfect you know, the perfect circularsaw is not out there. It doesn't

(01:03:12):
exist. Everything goes obsolete, everything'sgoing to be need repair. But to
purposely design it with a plastic bushinginstead of a metal bearing, knowing that
it's going to die on you afterten hours of us versus a thousand hours
of views. To me, thatis that's on us to investigate that,

(01:03:40):
you know, And that's all I'msaying, investigated. And if you're sick
and tired and you keep complaining abouta disposable society, do your research.
But there's also another thing too.There's also another thing there's people can see.
And this goes to the point earlierpeople. So what you find value

(01:04:02):
in you've you've mentioned generally today,and that's something that you purchase which will
have a long life sufficient for youto get your money's worth and maybe then
some if we can, if wecan have it um where and perhaps let
me I got and perhaps the abilityto repair it and you know, just

(01:04:28):
just just all these all these thingsnow um But there's people out there that
will see that awesome item and thenthey'll see the equivalent and because surely the
color of it, or it's gotlittle full designs and a little bushy bushy

(01:04:50):
um antenna or whatever the heck,they're gonna pick that knowing very well that
the other thing is the better machine, and the other one might be on
sale. And that's what I mean. Out there, some people out there
will still buy the inferior product,and that is why we can't really do

(01:05:11):
anything. Well, No, we'retrapped in it as a group. And
that's why I'm saying as individuals.We have to do it as individuals.
Now, you can't control whether somebody'sgonna buy it because it's got pretty flowers
on it versus the one that's blackor white. No, I mean that's
you know, that's fine. Butlike a Makita like some people like,
and then you tell them, dude, the de Walt one, Um,

(01:05:32):
here's the stats on it. Andthe person look at you and saying,
let me tell you something, rightnow, Makeita is the best. And
he says no, but look atthe instructions here, look at the chart
here, and and they're not gonnaYeah. I get it. I get
it, and they deserve what theyget. You get what you pay for.
All I'm saying is for us individually. And this comes back to my

(01:05:55):
broader point about being tough on yourown opinions. Is because I was in
tested in Porter Capital Tools, andbut I was basing that opinion on tools
that were made forty years ago,which are not the same tools that were
made ten years ago. And it'slike, am I beholding to the name?
Am I holding onto the name?Or am I really holding onto a

(01:06:17):
better product? And it's tradition tois a traditional yeah, you know,
like that history. Yeah, andyou've got to be a little bit more
I guess introspective about that is.You know, now if you've gone out
and you've bought a whole raft ofyou know, cordless tools, and you've
got one battery format, then it'sa little bit different of a decision to

(01:06:44):
make, you know, because nowyou've got to replace all those batteries and
you got to replace all those toolsthat or have fifty two different battery chargers
on the wall. But that's downto you, you know, So I
don't know. I guess what I'mgetting at is is kind of look at
stuff, be a little bit moreselective, be a little bit more introspective,

(01:07:05):
and do a little bit more research. That's all. Yeah. And
as far as complaining about stuff isconcerned, some of us are just tired
of hearing it. Yeah, Iknow, they got the right to speak
their mind, but they also havethe right to shut up. They do,
they do. It's just that,you know, it's just when it

(01:07:26):
comes to choices and whatnot. Iknow what I would prefer, and sometimes
what I prefer is dependent on pricingand all sorts of different other issues.
It's not just what I prefer becausei'd prefer If I was driving a car,
I don't know, I'd probably prefera Portion nine eleven. Portion nine

(01:07:48):
eleven is not the best car inthe world. But guess what, I
have a preference for the Portion nineeleven since I was a kid, because
I had a poster with two chicksand bikinis standing by a Portion ninel and
in speed on. Brother. Havea good time with it. You know.
It's personal choice, you know,And that's great. I'll give you,

(01:08:09):
give you an inside baseball, andthen I'll wrap it up here.
I deal with people all the timeasking me questions about a specific software that's
used in my hobby c and seerouters. Yeah, it's so expensive,
it's so expensive. It's so expensive. Yes, are there any free alternatives?
There are a lot of them outthere, but don't ask me to

(01:08:30):
help you with them, because I'venever used him. I've never used him.
I don't know a thing about him. Well, how can I do
this with this software? I don'tknow, right, but you're supposed to
No, no, no, no, no no. I never said I
was an expert on anything. Iknow this software. I don't know a
thing about that software. You're onyour own. Yeah, you know,

(01:08:53):
you just want me to buy that. I don't want you to buy anything.
I can't say it. But whenit comes to certain people, I
want to leave me alone. Youcan't go outside of the sphere of what
you know and offer that if you'reif you're ethical, you can't say,
oh yeah, that'll work because youdon't know, because you haven't yourself and

(01:09:13):
you know, and we're talking aboutexpensive equipment here. I don't want somebody
to damage something based on a guessfrom me. Yeah, so you know
it's I'm not trying to get anybodyto buy anything. I know. I
got no interest in that. I'mnot an employee. That's the software I
bought. I know how to useit, so I make tutorial videos on
it. That's as far as itgoes. Yeah, I'll conclude with this

(01:09:35):
on my m then, Okay,I don't disagree with you, really that
the more information we have on aproduct, particularly if it's put on the
back or the box or whatever,and it's explicit so that we you know,
know what we're getting into and someof the possibilities. And you're right,

(01:09:56):
some many brands do that already,but some do not. UM.
I can't disagree that that's a beneficialthing. Um So in itself, I
can't. You know, the onlything is that it makes me cruel up
and I get a chill up myspine thinking that agreeing to something not agreeing

(01:10:19):
with the idea. But um,I guess supporting an initiative that will give
a job to do to some sortof um political you know, some some
governmental agency, um giving them alittle extra job to sink their little teeths.
And whether good or bad, Idon't UM. I find it just

(01:10:40):
uncomfortable as hack. So my mydefault position is always no to everything.
UM. But that's my personal andI have the right to have it right.
I have the right to think andand do as I choose within the
scope of what my rights allow meto. Beyond that border affecting other people,

(01:11:02):
that's a different story. And soI think, you know, let's
not give extra work to the government, you know, let them take of
the case. I for the mostpart I agree with you on that because
I'm with you. But I figureit this way. All of that is
already in place. They run thedesign of the label by the approving agency,

(01:11:27):
they stamp it, the boxes printed, and it goes. They're doing
that now anyway, So just letthem do the job. They're doing that
now anyway. Just let them doit. Just give them just go ahead.
Well, you know, it's likenutrition lightling. Did you ever find
it funny that there's a nutrition informationlabel on the back of the candy bar?

(01:11:49):
Is there anybody that buys a candybar thinking that this is nutritious?
No, but it's required there.But granola bars could be nutritious high.
But the same information on that granolabar has to be on that snickers too.
Yeah. Well, look, I'lltell you this. We're a population,

(01:12:10):
I'll tell you. I'll tell youthis. Yeah, I'm not oblivious
to all that because I mean,so I understand it's already there. No,
No, I understand we live Imean, come on, I understand
we live in a world that's alreadyum tugging along with in place akers of
different things. Like, I'm quiteaware that we're living amongst amongst items that

(01:12:35):
at that are that were built andmade and things that are regulated and reregulated,
and like, I'm aware, andthat's why I said at the beginning,
we're stuck in it. We're stuckin all of it. So I'm
aware we're stuck in it. Thisis how it rolls. I get it.
You know what confirmed it for me? What confirmed it for me was

(01:12:59):
the label on a back of acan A Planter's dry roasted peanuts product contains
nuts. Yeah, they have toput that warning that your can of peanuts
contains nuts. Yeah, in caseyou were hoping to find the can of
peanuts that didn't have nuts in it, so if you have a peanut allergy,

(01:13:20):
you won't grab the wrong one.Well, at the same time,
you can't assume people are stupid,because you really can't. You could and
I'm you. I'm not saying you. I'm just saying in a general sense.
One could I'll say like this,but I'm not saying you at all.
One could assume. So from myvantage point, I could easily make
this if I were arrogant enough,and I'm not. I don't. I

(01:13:45):
don't the older you get you,but I don't consider myself and I could
be wrong, But I don't assume. Even when I assume it, even
when it's at first first glance,it strikes me. I draw that back.
It's a behavior that I do.I draw my my assessment because there's

(01:14:08):
no way that I could know thefull breadth and length and depth of a
person's inner workings, their mind andtheir capacity. Although some signals are too
strong to ignore. Yes, Iwill be I will say that. Yes.
But but just like we can't assumethat the public at large is and

(01:14:32):
this is a broad category statement,that the public at large is, um
incredibly smart, we can't assume smart. We can't we can't assume stupid either.
We can't assume any of these things. And the fact that a label
of a peanut jar has the labelthat's and the right just that fact,

(01:14:57):
um you know, candem and straight, that there's a contingency of people out
there that are oblivious to the factthat it contains there's a possibility that it
contains peanuts when you can see thepeanuts in the job. So there's all
sorts of people out there and Ican't account for other people regardless of what
my assumptions are out towards the world. And I would feel very comfortable thinking

(01:15:20):
that I am the one that knowsclearly okay, and understands things clearly.
And I think that I always tryto try to understand things. But there's
a thing called bias and all thisand that, and we're human. But
it would be more comfortable for meto think that, yeah, all these

(01:15:41):
people are freaking stupid. What's wrongwith you people? And I do think
that sometimes, but I have todraw back my line a lot and think,
well, wait, wait wait,And I've had to I've had to
reassess a lot of things. It'shard to reassess because you have to self.
You have to turn the mirror andsay no, you were wrong,

(01:16:06):
and stuff like that. So whenit comes to people, this is in
terms of that, but it canapply to everything. Um. Yes,
sometimes you think to yourself, Idon't need a lot of math to make
to tell me that this guy overhere, um, you know, somewhere
out in Miami is a complete idiot. Um. But there's always redeeming qualities

(01:16:28):
that we're not aware of, intelligencewise and stuff. So we have to
be careful, or at least Iam. I try to be careful unsuccessfully
A lot of times. You're surprisingme here. Why because it sounds to
me like you're in support of thatgovernment mandated label, that government mandated warning
label product contains nuts. No.I can see, I can see the

(01:16:50):
I guess. No, I cansee I can see the reasoning behind it.
I can see the reasoning behind it. M Okay, But all this
that I'm saying is in terms ofme now towards the world. When it
comes to an agency, it wasright. No, When it comes to

(01:17:12):
an agency, then then my goto assessment is the ethical problem of just
the basic, the basic original tenantsthat that one with, you know,
the least the better. But Ido understand the reasoning. Yeah, there's
people out there that may not.But this is but this is an example

(01:17:36):
of that. The government agency decidedthat there are a lot of people out
there that have nuts sensitivities and nutallergies. So they made this little blanket
statement and says, if your productcontains nuts, it must have the warning
on it that says this product containnuts, and planters to get their label
past the pill folks put on acanopy nuts that it contains nuts. Yeah,

(01:18:00):
like the big label on the frontthat says peanuts wasn't enough of a
warning. You had to turn itaround and go, no, I can't
buy these peanuts. It contains nuts. Put it back. And what if
they don't read English? Well?In any event, I understand it.
I understand it. And there's alsothe protection of being sued like the coffee,

(01:18:21):
the McDonald's coffee situation. So Iunderstand. We live in this world
and it is what it is,and here we are, so I understand.
And all it takes is one littleproblem, with one incident with one
product for a court thing to occurwhere the company now has to adjust and
protect itself from any future actions dueto a mislabeling or this or that.

(01:18:44):
But all these things are are areconstantly a work in progress. And you
know what the consequence is. Weget all the stuff, we get all
the warnings, and we and itis what it is. We're stuck in
it. Let's let's wrap this upbecause okay, well you know you did.
I'm going to applaud you publicly becauseyou did do very well on a
topic you didn't want to talk aboutSo it was very difficult for me,

(01:19:08):
But the difficulty was your You werevery I was. I was trying to
say my problem is with people withoutsaying my problem is with people. Yeah.
Yeah, I was trying to seeI'm more of a sugarcoat kind of

(01:19:30):
a guy. Let people come tothat conclusion themselves, because if I stepped
out from the get go and said, you know what, I really have
a problem with people. I thinkpeople are X, Y or Z,
it would have been done it overwith. No, I have a I
have a problem with people too,but I know that that. So look,
people are dangerous. You know,if if I call someone stupid,

(01:19:55):
whether they are or not, that'sjust an insult. Ears close. There's
no discussion. You insulted me.But if I can frame things in such
a way to where a person goesyou know, I was acting kind of
stupid. My job is done.I'm happy. Listen, people, This
might sound like an exaggerate but ifyou think it through to us in the

(01:20:19):
direction that I think, you mightsee why people are freaking dangerous. People
are people, and I'm not sayingdangerous kind of sort of and I'm not
saying dangerous. Well maybe and I'mnot saying dangerous like some sort of fantasy
illusion. I'm saying people are dangerous, dangerous like like danger. And I'll

(01:20:44):
give you an example that that Imentioned before. You don't know what people
are thinking. There's people that areoff on the weirdest trips. You don't
know who you come across that mayexternally look like a normal human being in
your mind because you have a levelof normal what you think is normal interaction
between people, you don't know whatweird crazy stuff a person might be thinking.

(01:21:10):
You don't know what position, orwhat lie or what road you might
be led down due to a certainamount of decisions made through the insistence of
a person that you encounter out there. Um, there's people out there that
are willing to do a horrendous thingsum from fraud to um terrible you know,

(01:21:31):
life and ending things. There's there'sa range of humanity out there.
Not everybody's like you and I,and even you and I are not like
you and I. It's such acomplex thing. So human beings. The
fact that they can think and canand connive, the fact that they can
they can they can randomly switch actions, the fact that they're unknown variables,

(01:22:00):
you can speak the same language witha person and certain words have different We've
had that exchange important the past.But we're we're we're we're within the realm
enough to sort of question, well, wait a second, this word this
is deviating us in this direction.But I don't feel that that's right.
Hold on and we work on itbecause there's some sort of um, I

(01:22:20):
don't want to give us so muchcredit and stuff necessary, but there's some
sort of level of understanding education wise, um, whatever that might be where
we can sort of step back andsort of deal with something. And so,
but there's people out there that theyhear a trigger word and they're like,
like the Manchurian candidate. You've seenpeople that go off the rails just

(01:22:42):
with one little trigger. Yeah,are these people? These people are animals.
So people are dangerous. At thesame time, people can be incredibly
awesome and not dangerous and and andjust good people and positive and help Well,
so there's all that, but becausethere's this tapestry of unknowns, people

(01:23:08):
are pretty dark dangerous. Yeah,And so that's why, um, it's
not good too. It's hard tonot to assume, but it's also useful
to be very careful of the peopleyou encounter, what you talk to them
about, how you talk to them, to what degree you And that's why
I and that's why I take thattack. You know, I don't tell

(01:23:30):
you something like that, especially ifit's something unpleasant. I will set things
up in such a way that youwill maybe get it yourself, you know,
because you're gonna believe you before youbelieve me. So yeah, my
problem is with people. But I'vealways been that way, so well,

(01:23:53):
no, but but let's go aheadand wrap it up. But notice that
I agree with you, but onthe aspect that I mentioned. Um,
I don't you agree with me onwhat I said about danger or Yeah?
I mean, because you don't knowwhat's gonna go on, you have you
have, there's no way for youto know what's in a person's mind,
in their heart, or in theirsoul. Yeah, they could be smiling

(01:24:15):
at you, and then they couldbe smiling at you. You're having a
pleasant conversation and they're giving you allthe right information that to make you feel
that you're having a good And whatthey're doing in their mind is also on
the side in when filing cabinet,they're thinking. So when I tie his
ass up. I'm going to throwthem in the trunk and dump them in
the city. You know, youknow, and they may look like the
most decent I mean, we don'tknow. You may think, well,

(01:24:41):
we can't live like that, andyou not you. But I'm saying like
like I'm talking like out there,people may think that, well, we
can't think that way, and youknow what, we don't. I don't,
Yeah, but I know that thatpossibility is there's a one I do
in person. It doesn't mean thatevery person, but it means that this
person in front of me that maybeI'm exchanging a hard drive. I'm here

(01:25:05):
for this story here, I'm nothere for any other stuff. I'm here
to give this hard drive because theyneed to repair the funicular screw that latches
onto and I'm focused on things,you know, I'm focused on that.
But we're not going to go aheadand trust the person with our lives,
now, are we. Wow,that's what the predators count on, right,

(01:25:26):
right, So we ought to becareful with what we towards people that
you know that we don't How wegot on this subject, I don't know.
I was talking about labels and no, because it's it's about thinking that
people are not capable of knowing what'sbest for them, and the labels being
needed and this and that and wellwhatever, it's it's it's let's end it.

(01:25:48):
Let's end it. Yeah. Ijust I just think that if there
is no serviceable parts and user serviceableparts in there, it should put out
up front. Yeah. I mean, they have no problem putting it on
the back of their TV set.How about putting it on the box?
Yeah. Whether they do that ornot, I'm not gonna have any say

(01:26:12):
in it. So if it doeshappen, I don't think it'll it'll it'll
It'll be a benefit for me inthat respect. And so hopefully they do
it on their own. Hopefully theydo it on their own without the pressure
of these I don't want to saythe word, but it starts with the
letter. Yeah. Well let's wrapit up and it ends with er and

(01:26:34):
it ends with er. Yeah.All right, So listen, folks,
we want to thank you for hangingout with us. We have an after
show in a few moments here,so stick around. This is the Trampled
Underfoot podcast show, and we golive every Tuesday six thirty Pacific Coast nine
thirty East Coast here on our YouTubechannel Trampled Underfoot Podcast on YouTube. We

(01:26:59):
have a website all Trampled Underfoot podcastdot com. You could visit our wayback
Machine get our past episodes there,and we have a Facebook page by the
same name as well, where wepost links on occasion photos of the things
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(01:27:28):
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(01:27:54):
All right, guys, we'll catchyou next week. Peace Trampled her Foot