Falcon\Soldier Ep. 4 "The Whole World is Watching"

Episode 247: Falcon\Soldier Ep. 4 - The Whole World is Watching

It's all Falcon\Soldier this week as we dive deep into the series' fourth episode! We get Bucky backstory, Wakanda's Dora Milaje, more Zemo, and the turning point for John Walker's Captain America!

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You're listening to Screen Heroes. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the
Screen Heroes podcast. I am yourhost, Derek, and I have with
me my two lovely regular co hosts, Ryan Hello and Ray Hello. Hello,

(00:24):
Hello, Welcome back everyone. Weare continuing our discussions on the weekly
release of The Falcon and the WinterSoldier on Disney Plus. So that means
it's time for episode four. Thewhole world is watching, and with that
in mind, this is your spoilerwarning for anything that's happened so far in
anything in the MCU. I mean, you never well, you never know

(00:48):
what we might bring up in association. I'm sure some things are safe,
but I don't want to run therisk that something in episode two of one
division is important to one of you. I have no idea. So this
is your spoiler warning for all ofthe MCU up through this episode. And
I'm sure we'll speculate a bit aswell. If you consider that to be

(01:11):
spoiler territory. You have now beenwarned, and I feel like I've rambled
enough that people will have been ableto pause by now if they're worried.
So let's dive right in. Let'sdo this. This was a long like,
this was a big episode. Alot of stuff happened here that I
would have thought would have taken multipleepisodes. But I guess you have to

(01:34):
remember there's only two more left afterthis one. So is there anywhere specific
you guys want to start, becausethere's a lot of ground to cover.
Well, I mean, probably thebest place to starts right at the beginning,
when you get that scene with Buckyand Ao boy what's her name?

(01:57):
Ray was mouthing it it's a ohMadley. It doesn't work well when you're
doing an audio podcast, but um, yeah, she you know that that
scene was. It was some weirdsexual tension in that scene too. I
don't know if you guys picked upall matter, but it's just me.
But anyway, I think it's justtwo very attractive people could be but I
mean, spash just Dan has inthe MC thus far not really had a

(02:21):
chance to show his acting chops.It's been a lot of stoic looks.
But that scene was pretty fucking incredible, Like, yeah, it was moving,
very moving, and I didn't thinkI didn't know if would get a
scene like that from him, butyeah, it was incredible. One of
the best scenes probably of the wholeMCU. Honestly, in terms of like

(02:42):
just sheer emotionality, I was gonnasay, yeah, it was really just
really intense, really sad. Imean, it's it's good because it works,
right, and he's freed and everything, and so there's that relief at
the at the end of that,but it is just incredibly sad across the
board. Yeah, it was.It was nice background, that's for sure,

(03:05):
because like, you know, allthat happened off screen. We just
yep, he's fine, you know, they freedom and that's it, and
we never really got to see anyof it. So, right, I
am really glad that they added someof that. Agreed I am too,
But it's beautiful. Yeah, absolutelyit did. Her whole scene in present

(03:29):
day kind of negated a theory Ihad last week where he was still he
was actually actively working for Wakanda andthis was all part of some type of
mission or plan, and that's nottrue. Now he knew that eventually someone
was going to show up, whichthat makes sense, but my my,
my theory was squashed pretty early onin this one. Yeah, who would

(03:52):
have been cool, but uh,you know, I didn't have high helps
for it actually being true. That'sfair. I think that that's fair.
But it was definitely good to seeher and she's got you know, she's
she's pissed obviously for good reason andgives gives the White Wolf eight hours or

(04:12):
twelve hours, it was, Yeah, it was a short amount of time
to resolve things or she was gonnacome take Zimo herself. There was another
theory of yours that got resolved thisepisode as well. What's that Sharon Carter
being the power broker? We knowas we still all know who the power

(04:35):
broker. She's not a power broker. She literally refers to the counter power
broker several times as him to otherpeople. So people never lie. Yeah,
definitely not in the MC. Imean, I don't think they're that
clever with this show revealing that inthe last two episodes where she said very
little development seems like it's going tohave not much of an impact. Um,
I mean, having us another randomact or being the power broker is

(04:58):
not really not that much of animpact either. But that's the only reason
I'm keeping the theory alive because atleast that has more impact than it being
some rando. I just the wayshe's written this season I'm really glad that
she's back. But she's like inthis episode, now she's Batman, she
like gets access to satellites and andthe other thing is like she was like
snapped in the blip or whatever.She she was gone. They confirmed that

(05:20):
an endgame, her name was onthe list, and now she came back
and in like less than six months, she's in charge of like a five
hundred million dollars like art sale.That might be a mistake because in this
she made it pretty clear when wefirst get reintroduced to her that she was
there the whole time. So that'ssaying that's either a mistake or maybe they

(05:42):
thought she was dusted because she wentunderground. Maybe I don't know, but
I know how it bothered you whenthere was a tiny little time discrepancy in
one of the Spider Man movies.And this is this ye're justifying. So
you know, I'm not no,it's it's it's either a mistake or it's
because she went underground. And that'sa really because they kind of harped on
it when she's first reintroduced that shehad to be on her own during those

(06:05):
five years. And we even talkedabout how you know, what did she
do during that time, The skillsthat she's gained, the fact that you
know, she's now you know,working with these other groups, that all
happened while during the blip, Sothat's that's probably a mistake. Yeah,
it could be either way, though. I think that she's like playing this

(06:26):
weird role that is kind of justvaguely written, you know, they call
it. Sam just thought that shemight have access to satellites, like that's
a really random thing for somebody thatyou know, I don't know, did
she say, was there something Imissed in a previous episode that made it
seem like she would have access tosatellites? I mean, it didn't really

(06:50):
bother me, considering she was withall those rich and powerful people just an
episode prior, so you know,having access doesn't mean that she needs to
be the one doing it. Itmeans, you know, she knows a
guy who knows a guy kind ofthing. So it's that is not the

(07:11):
thing to focus on in this episodefor me. No, I'm not focused
on it. I just think thatthat her the way that they they're using
her as a little odd at thispoint unless she's the power broker, and
then it makes a lot more sense. Okay, I am going to say
that if I wanted people to notsuspect me of drug running superhero stuff,

(07:35):
I would constantly be like, yeah, it's totally this guy Tim he did
it. I would totally blame iton a dude. Maybe the hymn that
she's referring to his Mephisto, Yes, I mean probably seems the most likely.
Or it's Ralph. Everything's Maist,It's Ralph. It's been Ralph the

(07:58):
whole time. That's right, He'sgonna get his own little song. But
we hope we can dream, soall right, So we we go on
a little mission to go to thisfuneral, and Sam wants a moment or
two or tend to talk with Carly, and new Cap is not having any

(08:22):
of it. Even though Battlestar istotally on board with this plan, Newcap
just is a total ass the entiretime, doesn't Did it seem like he
was like a guy on drug withdrawals, Like, yeah, just like trying
to get his next fix this wholetime. It was a really weird thing.
Yes, he really did come offlike he was on something or withdrawn

(08:43):
for something. It was intense,like he was acting erratic when in previous
episodes he was very cool headed.I will say this sequence has one of
my most frustrating getting a little clichesthat are in films, any stories like

(09:03):
this where there's a character who meanswell, who gets to meet with the
antagonist in all honesty, and rightat the last minute when things might work
out, everything gets blown and theantagonist thinks the whole thing was a trap
the entire time. It's used overand over again, and I was really

(09:24):
kind of disappointed that they went therewith this. Well, I think there's
some stuff that we're skipping over,Like first and foremost, Zemo being the
one to get the information was prettyincredible. The way he did it,
it was very smart. And youknow with Candy Well, not only that,

(09:48):
but your it acts it absolutely isand turning the tables like convincing the
child that the other people are thebad guys, that he's with some really
dangerous people that will hurt her andher family. You know, that's that's
toply tier manipulation. It is reallyimpressive. I'm surprised Bucky you didn't hear

(10:15):
him because or understand him. Maybehe didn't like Bucky has speaks like six
languages that we know of. IMsee you at this point, so you
know, it's not crazy to thinkthat he would have understood what Zemo was
saying. But there's no real payoffthere though, because when he is quote
warning the girl right that Bucky andSam are really bad guys, nothing comes

(10:37):
of that because she still takes themall to the funeral. Anyway. I
don't know if that's gonna pay offin another episode either like this, it
may not be anything. The payoff. The payoff was that that he could
he got it, has the informationthat from the girl, and they couldn't
just go get it on their own, and it is keeping his leverage this

(10:58):
whole time. That was what itwas. So she won't tell them right
exactly. He was just ensuring thathe was the only one with that information
that they couldn't just go ask her. Okay, that works, It's not
great, but I mean that's atleast what I assume to be the payoff
for that. No, that thatworks, I'm fine with that. That
makes more sense. I do likethat none of them would speak to Sam

(11:22):
and Bucky. And finally this one, guys like, we are not refugees.
We are displaced, and I appreciatethe side that they're giving to these
people. They're really making Carly MorganThou and the other displaced and the Flag

(11:43):
Smashers, you know, they're they'remaking them very sympathetic. Yeah, they
are. And I mean there's alot of parallels between things Sam has said
in the series and they have said. The one that stood outs to me
was, I think in an episodethree, Sam says that he should have
probably destroyed the shield, or maybehe should have destroyed the shield, and

(12:05):
then Carle, when she's talking tothe soon to be decapitated guy, says
that that shield should be destroyed also, So like there's a bunch of yeah,
that's not the only one. That'sjust the first one that springs to
mind. So they really are makingit like Sam does really identify with the
Flag Smashers and he really understands whatthey want to do. And I like

(12:28):
this for a lot of reasons,but mainly it's because the world isn't just
heroes and villains and there are alot of gray areas for things. I
like that it's much more realistic.It's easier to relate to these people,
Whereas you know, supervillains most ofthe time. There's always exceptions when good
enough actor steps into a role,but in general, supervillains are just not

(12:50):
relatable, you know. But theflag Smashers are carly is. These are
people who are fighting for their lives, for their families, for what they
built during the blip that was takenaway from them by other groups that,
by the way, aren't really greatorganizations themselves, you know, that are
also doing bad things in their ownway, and they're doing bad things for

(13:11):
different reasons, and so I likethe complexity. Yeah, I agree.
Like there's a good chunk of peoplein WandaVision and Falcon and Winter Soldier that
I may not have, you know, sided with a year or two ago

(13:37):
that I am now because the developmentthat the writers and directors have given them
has been absolutely wonderful. Like II'm not sure I would have ever sided
with Demo, but he is justbecoming one of the most interesting characters,
and I think that's really a hugepart of these television shows giving these people

(14:00):
more screen time is making them moreinteresting. Yeah, I mean, he
makes a really good point when he'stalking to Bucky and Sam about you know,
how how you can't really distinguish youknow, superior, super serious soldiers
with like supremacy, Like there's athere's a relation there, like somebody who

(14:22):
asks for that. Zerum is wantingto be superior to other people. That's
the whole point of it. Yeah, And so I mean he makes some
good points and really, like youknow, makes you think a little bit.
And they bring up Steve. Buteven Zimo, which I thought was
interesting. Even Zimo has Steve Rogersin high regard, like he even he

(14:43):
said there's not been another Steve orthere won't be another Steve because again,
you know, Zimo's not your typicalsupervillain, right, He's not looking for
world domination and to kill Superman oranything like that. He has very specific
goals outlined because of things that happenedto him, his country, his family
that are real world consequences, right, And I like that. I like

(15:07):
the levels that they've given to himand the fact that Steve is this unique
person because he didn't seek out theserum, right, that wasn't his primary
goal. He wanted to help inany way he possibly could. That's what
he wanted to do. He wantedto do the right thing. He wanted
to help people who needed help,and it just so happened that that led

(15:28):
him to getting the serum, Butthat wasn't his goal, right, And
I think that's the big difference,right, And I don't think Bucky went
after the serum either, you know, and so, but it is interesting
how scared Zimo is a Bucky constantlybecause he knows what he's done in Hydra.
You can like see it. Thatactor does a really good job with

(15:50):
Daniel Bruhll. Yeah, does areally good job with like the little mannerisms
around Bucky to like portray that thisguy is very scared of Bucky and doesn't
really want to be anywhere near himif he can help it. I appreciate
the two different sides that they're givingbecause you know, almost directly after the

(16:11):
conversation that Zimo Bucky and if Falconhave is a conversation between John Walker and
Battlestar Lamar, and he is sayinghow he would take the serum, how
it would help all these people.So you get both of it. You
get them being stronger could have personallyhelped him and his people, and people

(16:36):
wouldn't have had to die if hehad had it in his system. And
then on the other hand, Zimohas seen just how much damage this is
also done, So you get bothand I love that it was really good
storytelling to include both sides of theargument. Well, I think John Walker's

(16:59):
side is not as clear cut asZemoses zmos is. I feel like a
much better point Walkers. You know, I was more talking about Lamar's side
of the story than Ryer. Right, Well, wait, it was a
Walker that brought up the like peoplethat they that died because it was a
medal of honor or whatever. Thewhole situation. Walker was talking about how

(17:19):
he had three medals of honor andit was it came at the expense of
all these people. And then heasks Lamar if he would have taken the
super Soldier serum, and he saysin a heartbeat, and he's like,
I would have helped all these people, right, And but the other side
of that is like they would haveprobably killed more people just to help people,

(17:42):
to help these people, and theyaren't necessarily the good guy. You
know, they might be think youguys in their eyes, but those other
people think they're the good guys.So you know, it's I don't know,
it's it's a definitely like a deeperconversation than I'm qualified to have for
a lot of this stuff. Well, and Captain us have the advantage of
basically fighting in two very clear cutwars. He fights the Nazis, right,

(18:07):
which are just you know, theuniversal bad guy now, and then
Thanos, who wanted to wipe outhalf the universe. So there's really very
little room for gray area in Capp'slife. And so he has that advantage
of never he didn't have to bearound for Vietnam or Korea, or the
Gulf War or you know, thewar in Afghanistan. He never had to

(18:27):
do any of those things that aremuch more complex area Walker probably had to
do. Civil War is about asgray as you get, because you know,
we've talked about how neither Tony norSteve have genuine, completely pure,

(18:47):
one hundred percent selfless motivations, right, Yeah, it seemed more like Toddler's
fighting about something than than grown upsuperheroes, you know. Well, but
but yeah, I mean there wasa lot of throwbacks to Civil War in
this episode too. But yeah,and then you know, you get John
Walker coming into the conversation and confrontingBucky or confronting Salmon and being like,

(19:11):
oh, machismo, Like should Ithrow it down my shield so we can
make it even It's like, comeon, dude, really, it's like
the embodiment of toxic masculinity. Masculinitythere a little yeah, and then he
gets his ass kit and I mean, I loved this fight scene so much,

(19:33):
so much. There was such creativeuse of the weaponry in a confined
space. There was lots of goodstorytelling there, which I'm sure we'll talk
about. Um, you get thewitty one liner, like the Bucky the
like it look as strong, youknow. That was I last so hard.
That was so good. Nothing feltbetter than seeing this fake captain American
getting his ass whooped. There wasjust some great memes that came out of

(19:57):
this as well, you know,like you know, Walker getting his ass
kicked. Meanwhile, everybody else isjust like taking drinks, you know,
off to the sipping tea or whatever, off to the side. Yet because
like nobody feels bad for him inthat moment. Nobody does nobody, and
certainly nobody's going to risk their livestrying to come in the middle until Sam
does. Of course, because Samis the mediator and he wants everyone working

(20:21):
together and I and they would havemurdered him. So he was going to
die. No, the yeah,Walker was going to die for sure.
If Sam hadn't stepped in like that, spear was headed straight for his chest
for sure. Yeah, You're probablyright. They aren't the type to show
mercy, at least as far asI've seen on screen. It was.

(20:44):
It was a really impressive scene.And I think the unspoken part of that
when that hurt Walker more was thefact that they were women, right,
because there is this thing of likea guy getting his butt kicked by women,
well, he must have a vagina, which is apparently some sort of
like terrible thing for people to have. I don't know, but but you
know, that was another level theydidn't really touch on. But I'm sure

(21:06):
for somebody that as toxic as thatguy is, that you know, that
bothered him a lot that not onlywere they not super soldiers, but they
were women. So I don't knowI took that from it. Maybe I
was reading too much into it,but that type of guy, you know,
did you get that Ray at all? I mean, to be completely

(21:30):
honest, I see a lot oflike subtle misogyny in quite a bit of
things. I usually just don't bringit up unless it's more over, so
I I brought it up this time. You should be proud of me,
you see, I'm seeing it.The thing with John Walker that makes him
so fascinating and so hateable is thefact that he is completely affect did by

(22:00):
so many different things. There's toxicmasculinity in there. There's PTSD, there's
misogyny, there is racism, there'sthe need to be absolutely perfect, to
be a symbol to uh, youknow, the whole anger bubbling right under

(22:25):
the surface. Like this man isthe pinnacle of mental instability, and like,
I absolutely believe that misogyny played apart in it. I'm glad that

(22:45):
they didn't just say that too.I'm glad it was like through they weren't
even guys like that would have botheredme. I like it more that he
said no, yeah, But Idid think it was important that he points
out, like they weren't even supersoldiers. Now, he may not be
aware of who they really are andwhy they're so great at fighting, but
he had this idea that if hewas a super soldier, then he would

(23:11):
be able to defeat anybody. Hewould just be strong enough to defeat anybody.
And I think this is a lotof foreshadowing because it's not necessarily just
about how strong you are, andhe thinks that's going to solve all of
his problems and it's not. Yeah, and I mean a lot of people
predicted it, so I can't takeyou know, a soul credit, but
a lot you know, I didsay early on that I thought that he

(23:33):
was going to get his ass kickedby super soldiers or who are by a
lot of people, and that wouldforce him in taking the serum. It
didn't have it exactly the way Ithought it would, but I think that,
you know, that was a prettyeasy guess and it came true.
So and same with what happens atthe end of the episode. I mean,
almost everybody knows anything about the comicbooks was pretty sure that was gonna

(23:56):
something like that was going to happen. In this case, it wasn't the
death of his parents that set himoff. It was the death of his
best friend, but you know,similar outcome. But I mean, I
gotta tell you, I did Iwould not have expected all of that to
happen in one episode. It wasa lot. It was a really it
was probably the most like plot drivenepisode so far. Yeah, and I

(24:17):
appreciated that a lot because we onlyhave two episodes left. We're going into
Act three now. This next nextepisode is Act three of the series,
and you know it's Yeah, stuff'sramping up big time and there's supposed to
be some big came out next week. Did you guys hear about that?
Yeah? Yeah, so it's supposedto be it's not somebody we currently know,
but it's supposed to be the debutof a new mcu character that is

(24:40):
well known. It's a yeah,I hope so. No, I think
I'm gonna be pulling like a Paulbettany thing where it's actually like Captain Captain
Sam instead of like Falcon Sam,and he just like gets you were going
with bet as Paul Betty playing athird version, he's actually Falcon Man.

(25:10):
I'm not even gonna lie. Iwould love that it would be watching everybody
lose their damn mind about Ralph Boneragain. I kind of I kind of
just want to see a White Visionhave a discussion with Zmo about the Ship
of Theseus. Yes, yeah,you an entire show about that. No,

(25:30):
No, that everybody would complain thatit's not normal MCU stuff, and
you know, I only want tosee super people punching each other. But
it brings up nobody wanted to seeChris Hansworth and his roommate Donald in commercials,
but we did, and we werevery happy about it. Yes,

(25:53):
it was amazing. So I don'twant to hear it give me all the
weird extra content. Yeah. Well, and to Ryan's little point about like
having you know, White Vision andZimo talking to each other, we get
like these super intelligent characters, thesevery thoughtful type characters, but they rarely
get to interact with each other.They're usually interacting with other people who are

(26:15):
nowhere near as cerebral, right,and you know that that way you get
the balance, that's the whole point. But it would be fun to see
some of these people in the sameroom together for a few minutes. Yep.
So I'm thinking that. Well.I was thinking that the cameo might
be Thunderbolt Ross, but we've gothim as a character already, so that

(26:36):
doesn't really fit that criteria. Iwas thinking that they're going to introduce him
as the power broker like we talkedabout, but it doesn't fit all the
criteria, but there's a bunch ofweird criteria, like it's a big name
character that we haven't seen in theMCU from an actor that we know.
It's like, it's just there's alot of weird stuff, so it should

(26:56):
be interesting. Maybe it's She Hulk. It could be there's a lot of
rumors about that. I heard somebodysaying that they thought it would be Daredevil.
But if they're using oh, somebodythat hasn't appeared in a movie or
I was one of the criteria too, it's not somebody that's appearing in a
movie. So it could be somebodyfrom the Disney Plus shows. So it
could be you know, Kate Bishop. Maybe could be you know, some

(27:18):
sort of setup for one of theother shows. But I'll be curious to
see how they can tie that inand not make it feel forced. Right,
so far, all of the suggestionshave just sounded very for Yeah,
it doesn't sounds super forced to me, but he doesn't fit the criteria.
So but she all kind of mightwork depending on how the season, Like,
well, this is supposed to benext episode, not the final episode,

(27:38):
right, Yeah, that makes ita little bit harder. I was
thinking, like if it ends kindof like post all of these events and
somebody's in court and she ends upbeing, you know, the prosecuting lawyer
or something. They could tie thatin, but that would have to be
at the tail end of the season, so that I don't think that works
either. It's a tough one.It's really interesting. Yeah, I'm not

(28:03):
sure. I didn't know if youguys would even I mean, Ironheart could
show up. I suppose it wouldbe a weird one that feels forced.
Also, I mean, I don'tknow, I don't I mean, we
got don Cheatle already. Maybe theyboth show up together. Apparently it's been
confirmed that the characters of Female Okay, okay, that's I mean, all
three of mine were women's. Yeah, it could be any one of those.

(28:26):
Still, I guess, I don'tknow. Those are the three that
come to mind because they are designedfor TV shows that are coming up soon.
So it's a fun way to tiein to upcoming projects rather than some
movie that who knows when that's coming, you know, right, Have you
guys seen the trailer for the nextcouple episodes or like the mid season trailer

(28:48):
that came out. No, I'mpurposely avoiding it, Okay, Well,
then we won't talk about it.Sorry. So also in that fight though,
before we move on from that fight, they remove Bucky's arm with just
a few quick finger throws at theshoulder component and it just drops to the

(29:11):
floor. And I mean, it'sit's like a freezing kind of moment in
real time anyway. But then,Ryan, you posted a really interesting thought
in our thread in the Screen Heroespodcast forum on Facebook that I thought we
should talk about. Sure, yeah, let's talk about it. What would

(29:32):
you like to tell people what thethread was? It was basically I'd have
to pull it up to be sure, but it was basically saying that it
was sad that that the a lotof people were joking about the arm right
uh, and you know, takingthe arm off. But there was another
point that was brought up that saidit was sad that the Will Condon's built

(29:52):
in a failsafe to be able toremove the arm, and because it shows
that they never fully trusted Bucky despiteaccepting him into their culture and making him
feel like he was accepted as partof Alakanda and giving him this nickname and
things like that, it's incredibly upsetting. Considering Ao was the one at the
very beginning to help him work throughit. Now, she probably was not

(30:18):
the only one who worked with him, but she was the one that we
were shown, and that's important.That she's also the one to gotta hate
this to disarm him. Yeah,sorry, I know, right, but
both of those are important. It'simportant I know that Wakandans are still an

(30:44):
isolationist country. That not just becauseT'Challa opened the borders to the rest of
the world doesn't mean that the restof the nation everybody was on board with
it. And to Challa, whilehe worked with Bucky, he was still

(31:07):
under the belief for quite some timethat Bucky was the one who killed his
father. So getting over that isnot easy. And we've seen our preconceived
notions get the best of us.So it's it says a lot about who
the condens art says a lot aboutto Challa as the king, about Ao,

(31:30):
about all the Dora milage. Soit was a small moment that told
us a lot about these characters well, and it leaves Bucky again with another
situation of wondering who actually trusts himand if he is trustworthy and if Steve

(31:52):
what Steve saw in him was accurateor not well even worse, it shows
that there are still people out therethat can control him. He had no
idea. It was proof that hedoes not have autonomy over himself, that
there's always somebody out there that canhave one that knows more about him than

(32:15):
he does. Yeah. See,yeah, I was going to type out
a response in the post, butit was kind of a mouthful and I
didn't know if I'd be able totype out a way that made it sound
right. But it kind of remindsme of like people that deal with an
addict in real life. You know, you you, no matter how sober
somebody is from drugs or alcohol orwhatever, you don't know if they're gonna

(32:37):
you know what's the trigger, right, Bucky has triggers that make him act
like the Winter Soldier. An addicthas triggers that make them want to drink
or want to do drugs, andyou know, their family or the people
around them don't get the luxury ofa button that can make them not do
that thing. Right, But theydid have that luxury, and I don't.

(32:59):
It's very sad, but I don'treally blame them for that, for
taking that precaution, I feel likeanybody that's ever had somebody like that in
their life would take that precaution giventhe chance. And it does, you
know, become hard to trust somebodyin a circumstance like that. So you
can't really blame him, you know, if for any moment his work was
all undone, somebody found a wayto trigger the Winner Soldier again, there

(33:23):
was a good chance that you know, removing the arm and taking back what
they had given him was a failsafe. Yeah. Yeah, I mean
it is sad, but it's definitelyI do understand it. You know,
It's like how Batman has a contingencyfor everybody you know in the Justice League.

(33:44):
You know, if you really thinkabout it, like it's kind of
messed up. But at the sametime, like, well, what do
you do if Superman just goes rogue? Right, you better have a plan.
So it's hard on everybody. AndI think just because we're positioned with
Buck, with Bucky, and we'veseen a lot of vulnerability from him in
the show, right from obviously thebeginning scene in this episode, but also

(34:05):
earlier on when he's sleeping on thefloor in his apartment and he's all these
other things that we feel for him. We feel more connected to him than
we do you know, pretty muchanybody else on the show right now,
because of that emotional vulnerability. Yeah. So I do want to mention the
fact that Sam's PTSD therapy has comeback around. It's been quite some time

(34:31):
since we actually got to refer backto that, but yeah, that's how
we met him. He was helpingsoldiers through coming back and helping with you
know, group therapy. So itwas nice that they were able to touch
on it now. I don't thinkthere was any point in his story where

(34:55):
bringing it up was relevant, buthe it's just kind of relegated to the
black sidekick role for a few movies. So this is nice to see things
come back up to not waste thatplot point. Yeah, that was a
really cool callback, one of severalin this episode, but that one was

(35:16):
particularly important because, like you said, he was was just a black sidekick
for a lot of the MCU,and so him you know, being able
to do important things without superpowers justby being a good guy and someone that's
trained to do these things was wonderful. Yeah, and it's and he seemed
to be having a really good heartto heart up until John Walker kind of

(35:37):
kissed all over that, And thatgoes back to the that's just a narrative
mechanism that I am sick of seeingat this point. It happens like in
every genre that that has any actionsequences and stuff like that, Like this
is just such a common concept thatI really hoping they weren't going to do
it. It would have been areally cool touch to not do it if

(35:58):
they got to actually finish their conversation, go their separate ways, and then
John Walker like he because then itwould look like a calculated betrayal of Sam's
confidence and not a bumbling kind oferratic mess. Right, But that's that's

(36:25):
just me. Carly is more andmore a bad guy in this between and
threatening Sam's family and making the commentsabout killing Captain America and things like that,
which is really showing the divergence ofher versus the other flag smashers.

(36:52):
They you know, we saw herblow up that building with civilians in there
and her cohort being completely taken abackby it and upset and shocked and kind
of scared. And then and thisone, this guy is with her the

(37:15):
entire episode, talking about how muchhe admires her cause and what she's been
doing for everybody, and how helooks up for people that you know,
helps out the little guy Chica,including Captain America like this, Steve Rogers

(37:36):
one. And then she, youknow, she kills Battlestar. She kills
him. She doesn't even seem toknow that what she was going to do.
She just completely unleashes her power.She can't control it, and she

(37:57):
murders him. Yeah, pretty much. And it's kind of a weird.
It's a weird scene because keep inmind that earlier in this episode she wants
to kill Walker openly, right,So the fact that she kills Battlestar like
that freaks her out. And sothat leads to to a couple of possibilities.

(38:19):
Either one she didn't realize what itwould be like to kill someone just
personally, not with you know,a bomb, or I don't know,
it just came off a little weird. How afraid she seemed to be after
the realization that he was dead.Well, that weird that like we need
to kill Captain America line or whateverthat was. I'm there was a lot

(38:44):
of weird editing in this episode thatagain makes me think that some of this
stuff was just like re edited intoa different plot line because that line specifically
was said off camera. You weren'tlooking at her, like you didn't see
her say it. It was lookingat her partner that dies. Later,
Um, the scene where you seeall the flags fashers together like in the

(39:05):
camp thing, and she's like standingway off to the side, and then
in the next scene she's sitting downin the middle with all of them when
they're watching the news. Like,there's a bunch of weird stuff. And
so I'm not sure that that linewas originally what that was supposed to be.
There was more hints of that deletedstoryline this episode, and that line
particularly stood out as a weird line. Yeah. Yeah, so well that

(39:28):
would explain her reaction because that obviouslywould have been filmed with whatever the original
Yeah the original was. But yeah, this is what they went with,
and so it just comes off alittle strange. Yeah, definitely, dude,
you know, and they bug outand they all run separate directions,
like, but wasn't this the planwas to kill them? Like I thought,
that's what you wanted to do,And so if they stick together,

(39:50):
I mean, first off, it'sa little unclear that she knows that Walker
has super strength yet that scene.I don't think she's aware of that yet.
But they're all like scared of him, like they do know, But
I don't know how they would haveknown. Well, I think that they
were scared of him, just likein general, because he's Captain America and

(40:12):
he's an imposing visage even you know, when he's not a super soldier.
He's done some bad things, sure, but they've they've confronted all three of
these guys before as super soldiers anddidn't ever seem frightened. No, But
when they fought him on the trainsand stuff, they were there was more
flag smashers at that point. Itwasn't just Carly and like one other guy.

(40:36):
Well, there was more than justthis is there more than those two
of them. There was at leastfour of them. Okay, well they're
all super soldiers up. That wasmy understanding, But maybe they weren't.
Maybe it was just the two ofthe other super soldiers. That's my point
though, is like it's kind ofan unclear scene. Like the clear thing
is obviously that Battlestar dies and she'sthe one who kills him. That's that's
clear, but the rest of itis very strange. Well, there was
the scene right before that confrontation whenWalker throws his shield and it like itbeds

(41:02):
halfway into the wall, kind ofshowing that he doesn't understand this strength yet.
And so it's possible that somebody sawthat and was like, holy shit,
this guy is not screwing around.Maybe you know, that was the
only like thing I saw before thatwould give any kind of a hint that
he's a super soldier. Now,so I do want to say that there

(41:22):
does seem to be some inconsistency withthe injuries here and super strength and stuff
like. I think we can allagree that getting hit with that shield would
be horrible, and Zmo takes itto the face, is just laying down
with ice on his face. Laterthere are no cuts, there are no

(41:43):
bruises, like, and he's fine, there's no concussion or anything. And
yet you know, Battlestar gets hitin the column and I probably a brain
in his spinal cord somewhere and leastyeah, I and I'm not saying that

(42:06):
like his death wasn't I guess theproblem that Zimo just walks away without any
scrapes or bruises or anything bothers mea lot. Well, it wasn't see.
It is inconsistent because in the endscene too, that when that guy's
running away, he gets the shieldthrown at him and hit with it at

(42:27):
least once, maybe twice, Andthat's with super soldier strength and he's still
alive and like moving around and ableto talk. So you would think that
shield would do more damage than likejust getting punched in the chest would Yeah,
you would think so. But likeI think this has always been a
problem in the MCU with power scalingjust in general. Yeah, yeah,

(42:49):
because it is hard to be consistentwith it because it's not it's not really
mechanical, so it's hard to know, well, well, is he using
his full strength? You know,like maybe he wasn't using his full strength
when he at Zemo. Maybe heknew to dial it back just enough to
you know, to knock him down. Or no, he's using his full
strength in that last scene. Imean, there was no way he wasn't,
right, and so like maybe that'sthe difference. And so Carly,

(43:10):
maybe she's been holding back right onthe train sequences and stuff like that.
Maybe that wasn't her hundred percent,and this time it just was because she
was in the moment or something likethat, and she used her hundred percent
and it killed him and that's whyshe was scared. The problem is that
we have to kind of guess whatis going on. That's that's the that's

(43:30):
the big issue. I don't havea problem with characters holding back at times,
because like that's what whole Civil Warwas about. That whole confrontation is
all of them holding back because theydon't really want to hurt each other.
But that's made pretty clear to us. Well, like that last scene,
like when he's actually like above thedude to finishing it off, it would
not I feel like Steve Rodgers wasdoing that, not that he ever would,

(43:52):
but he would have chopped through theguy in one. I mean,
the human body is not like thattough really compared to a vibranium shield.
And this guy he took multiple hitsand was still together. I think that
was my like one of my biggesttakeaways because the amount of hits that Walker

(44:15):
did versus what the body looked likeA yeah, likely seeing the downward movement,
I think it's just a Disney plusthing just horrifying, And yeah,
I like the imagery and everything.It's easily could have been rated are We've
We've literally seen like Steve Rodgers pickup a motorcycle with one arm and like

(44:38):
hold the helicopter from taking off.You know, maybe the super Soldier serum
hadn't kicked in all the way yetor something like that. I mean,
I don't know, We don't know. It's it's not the same serum that
that Steve had, so we don'tknow that it's literally as strong because we
do know, it's been changed enoughto not actually modify a person's physical structure.

(45:00):
That's why this flag smashers kind oflook like regular people. That's why
Carley doesn't look like a bodybuilder,right, but new cap right Walkers already
a pretty fit guy, so itdoesn't change anything visually for us. But
for all we know, he's notas strong as Steve was at it at
the same age. It's true.I guess when you're just thinking super Soldier,

(45:20):
you're thinking Steve Rogers is the onethat we all know, so it's
hard to not scale based off that, you know one with. The only
other comparison is Bucky who also hasa vibranium arm Yama exactly. You got
the same sim in theory that Stevedid, so right, and so like,
it's just it's very complicated. ButI agree with you guys. It

(45:42):
was just really weird, as reallyinconsistent. And I am still floored that
they showed all the blood on theshield on Disney Plus. I really honestly,
like, don't get me wrong,it's an iconic shot and it was
perfectly done, but I am stillfloored. It was shocking, Like it
was very emotional. I audibly gaspedwhen the whole thing was going down.

(46:04):
Well that's what they were going forobviously, but it is a little bit
weird, like in general for theeven the MCU beyond Disney Plus, because
really you don't see anybody bleed unlessit's like a weird colored alien blood,
right the Netflix shows. Yeah,but like the movies, the core MCU,
the Netflix shows are we're not evensure MCU at this point. That's

(46:27):
yeah, Um, you know,you don't really see anybody. You got
to see Thanos get decapitated and thatthat was shocking, But it was purple
alien blood that went everywhere, notred. And this was very clearly red
blood um, and yeah, itwas. It was a shot that was
meant to make everybody go, Idon't like this, you know. Yeah,

(46:47):
it's not just like I hate thisguy, it's like, all this
makes me very uncomfortable. Yeah.And then obviously the title of the episode,
you know, comes into play becausethe whole world is watching and there's
you know, a hundred people circlingthis with all of their phones out,
you know, streaming to Facebook andwhatnot, and you know, like,

(47:08):
forget for a minute, what Walkeris going to do. What is like
the US government going to do nowthat their poster boy murdered or dude out
in the street with a shield withyou know, quote our colors. Well,
they don't want to do that,or they don't. We don't want
to talk about that, because there'sa hint as to what's coming with that
in the trailer that you are avoiding. So ah, I see, I

(47:30):
say, what comes next is goingto give It's going to change the rest
of the MCU for quite some time. Things may go back for a while,
but this is going to have alasting effect. So there's a post
on Reddit that I looked at thatI thought was interesting where somebody said that

(47:50):
that Walker is just a means toan end for the MCU. His his
point was that if if Marvel hadjust given Sam Shield like they did it
at the end of Endgame, thatpeople would just think he's a crappy Captain
America because he isn't Steve. Well, then now that you have Walker,
who's a piece of crap or theShield that everybody hates, they can just

(48:14):
all hate on him, and thenwhen Sam becomes Captain America, then it's
gonna look way better for Sam andpeople are gonna be way more accepting.
I don't think that's necessarily true atall. I think it works quite a
bit in the context of everything Ithink storytelling wise, the government would not

(48:36):
have ever picked Sam Wilson as asymbol of the US four. No,
but Steve Rogers did, and thegovernment, you know, he was there
Captain America. So what are theygonna do? Say no, I mean,
I mean he had to give theshield back. They didn't say give
us the shield back where he voluntarilygave the shield back, So at that

(49:00):
point they hadn't been like, well, we don't accept you as Captain America.
He said, I don't accept therole of Captain America and gave the
shield back. It is. Itis complicated by this because we don't know
what they would have done. Wedon't even, like, to be fair,
if if Sam had just hidden theshield away, we don't even know
that other than Bucky, that anyonewould have known what happened to the shield.
And so the US government may havecome up with their own cap with

(49:23):
just a non vibranium shield. Right, It's not like they couldn't make a
shield that looks like that one sinceyou know, in real life it's not
actually made out of vibranium. Soyeah, they could have gone that route.
I think that I don't know,it's weird. It's one thing to
kind of have Sam go through anarc where he learns that he does have

(49:45):
what it takes to be CAP andthat he deserves to be CAP, and
that he's the CAP that we need. That's one thing. But to have
a guy who's just going to belike, truly terrible, so well,
this guy's awful, let's go withyou instead. It For me, it
almost cheapens it because then did heearn it or is he just not as
bad as this dude? Well,this was more not in the context of

(50:07):
the MCU, more in the contextof the viewers, because you know,
a lot of people are like,why would why would Steve pick Sam instead
of Bucky, his friend from forlike a hundred years? You know,
how does that make any sense?There was a lot of that, we
all read it online. Yeah,viewers, I think that people are going
to be more apt, not thatpeople in the MCU are going to be

(50:30):
more apt, but the people thatare viewing the MCU are gonna be like,
well, Sam's way better than thisother ship bag, So they're gonna
be It's gonna be way an easierpill to swallow for people, Whereas before
they would have just been like,well, Sam is definitely not Steve Rodgers,
you know what I mean, Theywould have that would have been their
only comparison. But now we havethe top end of good and the bottom
end of bad, and as longas Sam is somewhere towards the top end,

(50:51):
you know, it feels a lotbetter than maybe it would have otherwise,
because at that point he would Samwould have been potentially the bottom.
Yeah, you know what I mean, It made sense to me. Apparently
you guys don't agree, but youknow, if you listener agree then you
or disagree, then hit hit usup on Twitter. Derek will plug out
at the end. I'm sure Iwill as screen heros pod um. So

(51:14):
yes, I mean that's how theepisode ends though, is just you know,
out on the street for the worldto see, and you know,
we'll have to see what the ramificationsare of all that good stuff. Yeah.
Yeah, it was a messed upepisode. It was Why do you
guys think that what Condon's left them? The shield? I was going to

(51:36):
care about it, but it's vibranium. Um, I would say, like
super protective of all the vibranium.Isn't that like a thing? Yeah?
But it was given away, youknow, to see to Sam from Steve
who you know, So I don'tknow that they necessarily would Sam didn't have
it anymore, oh right, becauseyeah, I don't know. Also,

(51:59):
those little balls they left everywhere forBucky to pick up. Can we talk
about how that's like ten million dollarsin vibranium that they just like left laying
on the ground. Maybe it wasn'tvibranium, I guess, but I just
assume any metal that comes out ofa conduct at this point is vibranium.
They probably don't use it for everything. Yeah, that's probably true. I
just assumed that they're just like leavingthese, you know, three million dollars

(52:22):
in vibranium balls laying around. Hopefullya kid doesn't find one variety. He's
gonna be made rich forever if hedid, or he just leaves as a
marble or something. Well, isthere anything else you guys want to touch
on from this episode? No,Race shaking her head. No, no,

(52:43):
it didn't get picked up. Allright, cool, Well, then
we're gonna wrap things up for thisweek. We will be back next week
to talk about the penultimate episode,episode five of The Falcon and the Winter
Soldier. We, of course,are the Screen Heroes podcast. You can
find us at screen dash heroes dotcom with all of our links to all
of our social media, our Facebookgroup, all of the podcast apps.

(53:05):
If you want to subscribe to ourfeed, we would appreciate it, So
join our group, listen to theshow the Whole nine. You can find
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I'm at Siren Ray and Ryan wherecan people find You? At Buster
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(53:29):
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