Falcon\Soldier Ep. 6 "One World, One People"

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You're listening to Screen Heroes. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Screen
Heroes podcast. I am Derek,your regular host, and I have with
me my two long time weekly cohosts, Ryan Hello and Ray Hey Hey

(00:25):
Hey. This week we end ourjourney through the Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
All six episodes have come to this. We're discussing the finale and I'm
sure lots of other things that cameup during the season, and before we
dive into that, I'm just gonnaplug that. Next week is our two
hundred and fiftieth episode. Can youguys believe it? Hold for applause?

(00:49):
So long, guys, so long. Yeah, this thing should have been
taking up the past few years ago, but you know, we keep plugging
along. Someone's gonna make make mestop. That's really what it comes down
to, you know, and noone has. They just keep letting us
do this week in and week out. So next week we are starting a
new monthly segment called MCU Revisited,where we will be going all the way

(01:15):
back, starting with Iron Man andgoing through the first two phases of the
Infinity Saga. Because when we startedthe show we were already deep into the
MCU The first MCU film that wewere able to review as it was released
was Captain America's Civil War. Yeah, so we're going back. We're going

(01:38):
back, and thank you Darryl andChat, thank you for the congratulations.
I appreciate that very much. Butwe're gonna be doing that. So we're
also thinking about doing some similar thingswith DC properties, but obviously they're a
little more complicated because they've got likethree different movie universes, so we have
to kind of think about how we'regoing to do that. But MCU Revisited
is starting next week and we'll bemonthly recurring in order of the Infinity Saga.

(02:01):
So there you have it. All, right, let's do this.
This is your spoiler warning for thefinale of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Spoiler warning for anything really MCU relatedthat could be somewhat related or tangential
to The Falcon and the Winter Soldieras well as us. Probably you're making
some guesses, some speculation about what'sto come. Alrighty, so big episode,

(02:27):
A lot of stuff in this one, a lot of stuff to cover.
Let's just let's just start with likesomething really big and kind of just
get it out of the way,what do you think of the new Captain
America suit? It was nice,like it's almost exactly right out of the
comic. Yeah, I mean itlooks great on screen. I'm a little

(02:49):
concerned because he doesn't wear a helmetlike the other caps did, so literally
the only part of him that's exposedis his brain part, you know,
at least Wally West, and hehas a similar kind of cowl. He
can run faster than a bullet,so that works. But I know that
they went that way because it's theway he looks in the comic books.
But like the tactical like more interestedin functional suit. Part of me is

(03:12):
like, oh okay, come on, that's fair. The only thing he
does have he does have the wings, right, which can protect him.
Which that bridge scene where he swoopsdown and like the wings like go around
him and the pilot. That wasa pretty awesome shot. I just really
like that. So I guess hehas that he can always throw the wings
over his head to protect himself abit sure. One piece of detail that

(03:38):
never occurred to me that I thoughtwas super cool. So straw hat goofy,
he's on TikTok and he does hedoes some good analyzes, and he
pointed out that Sam's suit has twostripes on the chest, whereas Steve's had
three, and this might be areference to to the missing man formation in

(04:00):
military, and that you know,Steve's gone, and so that he's that
third stripe that is missing. Andif you're not familiar with that, you
can look up what the missing manformation is. But I thought that was
a really cool concept. And Idon't know if that was intentional or not,
but I really like the idea.So until I'm told otherwise, that's
that's my head canon for why hehas two stripes. So very good.

(04:21):
Um, yeah, I mean Iloved it. I thought it was really
cool, very vibrant and bright,which which was, you know, a
nice contrast of course to Walker's capsuit or fake cap whatever you want to
call him. Um, and evenmore so later in the episode. But
yeah, I thought I thought Ilooked good. I'm glad he has the

(04:41):
visors, not the visors the goggles, you know, since he's flying all
the time. I thought that madea lot of sense. But they looked
good. Yeah. Yeah, Andthe fact that they're functional. I was
worried that they weren't going to beand like when they were in the tunnels
and they couldn't they were chasing theCarly and the other people, and I
was like, why doesn't just turnon the infrared? And like two weekends
later, it's like infrared, thankgod. If he's got goggles and they're

(05:03):
not functional, you know, eveneven night owls were functional, Like this
is what Condentech, come on,they can do that? And they did.
Yeah, well, i mean remember, like you know Peter's glasses that
Tony gives them and yeah, soyeah, I'm glad that I had.
They had that too, and it'sit's a good piece. Like the whole
suit is a massive upgrade to Steve's. Right, Like Steve's obviously looked a

(05:26):
little bit more sophisticated than the onehe had in World War Two, but
you know, between the wings andthe infrared goggles, like it's just a
very very cool suit. And I'myou know the jet pack too, of
course, Like it's pretty awesome.Would you think Rachel, Oh, I
said, I already liked it.I think it looks really great. I

(05:47):
didn't know if you had any thoughtsbeyond that. Nope, okay, so
yeah, I just wanted to getthat out of the way because it's just
I thought it was really cool andI wanted to talk about it. I
love the way that they used it. We talked a little little bit about
this last week, but just thechoreography with him having the wings is a
unique way of showing fight scenes thatthey don't really have the opportunity to do

(06:09):
with any other characters, and it'sgood. It looked really good. There
was really only one shot where thewings looked kind of funky cgi wise,
and that was when he was bringingKelly back and he was doing like the
soft mid the Sorry Carly her realname is Kelly. When he did the
soft land on the road and thewings had the fold back in, it

(06:30):
looked a little off, but otherthan that, I thought it just looked
fantastic. Also, the wings lookedway bigger than I I mean, maybe
my proportions in my head were justwrong, but like in that scene,
they looked huge. Compared to alot of their scenes, they didn't look
that big. It could have beenangles or something. I don't know.
They it did get and give himlike an angelic, angelic look when he
was bringing this terrorist down from thesky, So that was interesting. But

(06:55):
Yeah, it was cool. Thatwas overall like just the way that scene
was framed. I did really likethat. I think the wings are larger
than his falcon suit. Probably atleast they feel larger. Maybe it's just
the coloring um, but they definitelyfeel longer. Yeah. Um. Chad

(07:15):
also pointed out that it does thatit fixes the origin of the wings because
or in the comic books, hiswings are from Waconda from the beginning,
and the falcon wings are not fromWakonda and these are, so it does
kind of resolve that too. Sodefinitely it feels like them the MCUs kind
of shifting certain things to better alignwith the comics. I don't know if
that's intentional or convenient. I don'tknow which, but there you have it.

(07:40):
So all right, So lots lotsto go through in this one.
So we learn what the main plotis that Carly's group, you know,
the flag Smashers, what they're tryingto do, right, So it looks
like they're trying to gas this wholeinternational politics, the GRC group and it's
a diverse right. What did youguys think of that plan? Did you

(08:03):
think that was that was good?Bad? What would you think I don't
want to color your opinion. Crickets. Yeah, I mean I've been talking
a lot, so I want togive other people opportunity to talk. Other
people and me, no, Iyes, because I will. You always
shut you down all the time,constantly, So I wanted to give you
time to talk. Oh, Ibelieve it or not. I just don't

(08:26):
have that much to say. Itwas gonna be a good podcast. Okay,
all right, is there a partof the episode you do have something
to say about. I don't know, Like that's really weird. Okay,
it is. We have done thistwo hundred and forty nine times now,
but it's all good. Well,we'll just keep rolling and you jump in.

(08:48):
You jump in when you're ready.Um. I thought it was interesting.
I liked that it was a misdirectbecause you know, it was kind
of a very cliche attack, right, you trap everybody in a room,
you gass everybody, and it justit felt very played out, very done
before. And the fact that thatwasn't the plan, that that was just

(09:09):
the ruse was nice. I alsoliked how Carly was distracting Bucky on the
phone. Now, I feel likeBucky should not have fallen for such a
simple thing. But I did likethat she was still this late in the
game, still trying to play headgames, you know, to keep stretching
things out. The whole thing felta little too much like the Capitol Riot

(09:31):
for me. It was a littleclose to home and the fact that they
were I don't want to say glamorizingit, but they were. There was
some weird things that were like thatdidn't sit quite right with me with that
whole thing. I'm surprised Disney.I guess that was one thing they just
couldn't change up because it was toocrucial to the plot of the show.

(09:52):
But I'm sure somebody I mean thattoo. I mean, I'm sure somebody
was like, this seems a littleweird, guys, with what actually happened
in the world in the past fewmonths, But at that point, yeah,
what are you gonna do about it? So, yeah, that was
a little weird for me. Butyeah, it was nice that that wasn't
the entirety of the plan and itwas more just a distraction. Yeah.

(10:16):
So the fight scene though, soSam's got kind of his one on one
fight scene with the dude from earlierin the season. Yeah, thank you.
I didn't love that fight. Thatwas probably my least favorite part of
the episode. I felt like ittook Sam way too long and he spent
way too much time on this onedude, when everything else is like happening

(10:37):
around him. It's kind of understandable, though, I mean, when you
watch this is the same guy fromWinter Soldier and even Capp, I mean
had some trouble fighting him and Cappsa super soldier and had way more combat
training than Sam has it in theory, I don't know. I guess we
don't have an exact amount for eitherof them, but Cap is been alive

(11:00):
a lot longer, and you assumethat a lot of his downtime was was
combat training once he had the stormserum. So yeah, that was it
took a long time. But he'salso just you know, I guess I
didn't mean that Sam should have beatenhim faster, because Sam doesn't really beat
him. Sam just leaves, andI think that was the right decision.

(11:22):
I just think he should have doneit a lot earlier. Does that make
sense? Sure? It didn't reallybother me that much, if anything,
Like just the whole motivations with batTruck and the power Broker and all that
bothered me way more than that fightscene did. Oh, we'll get to
the power broker so right, Sothey get everybody into these trucks. They

(11:46):
load everybody in these trucks with theselittle spider lock things, which, like,
I'm a I'm a sci fi techieand I love I love sci fi
technology, but those little spider things, like when movies use stuff like that,
it just makes me kind of rollmy eyes a bit. But I
kind of gave me some Oscorp vibes. Oh that's interesting. Yeah, And

(12:07):
I have a feeling that maybe thepower Broker at the end, the little
stinger might have been speaking to Oscorpor something. I don't know. I
think that this, uh, therecould have been some some hints there.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's a good point though.
It's also Sharon's little bomb that shethrows a cool lot like the bombs at
a certain Spider Man villain throws.Yeah, which one's that green Goblin like

(12:33):
obviously or hob Goblin. I guessthere was similar bombs as well, but
yeah, or the new Goblin fromSpider Man three. Right, let's focus
on Let's focus on Winter Soldier andFalcon. Please, we're not going to
the Spider Man three. So SharonCarter is actually the Powerbroker, Methisto and
the Green Goblin. If he's Mephisto, does that make you feel better about

(13:01):
things? Ryan, No, Ijust want to say that I was right,
and I can't believe I was right. The entire internet was right.
They could. They did such ashitty job hiding that, and they made
it so obvious that it was her. Anybody who didn't like it was so

(13:22):
obvious that I was betting against itbecause I was like, why would they
do this obvious like thing? Becauseit was so it made it so clear
that that's what it was. Notto diminish your accomplishment, I just rewrite
the history of the show. It'severybody on the Internet pretty much figured that
out already, Like after she wasfirst introduced, it's like, Oh,
she's the power broker. Why doesit bother you so much that she's the

(13:45):
power broker? Is a woman?No, Rachel I has three lines the
entire podcast, and one of themis to make me sound like a subject.
No, it bothers me because it'scompletely out of character for her.
She's been gone from the Snap beengone for five years or whatever, and
now she comes back and she's thepowerbroker in like six months, and you

(14:07):
know, I don't know. Itjust didn't. Everything that she was doing
in the show felt really weird andnot like I don't know it didn't.
It felt like several different characters likewhat's why? Why was there was no
closure for why she was trying tokill Sam? Right? Like she set
up the whole thing at the beginningthat Sam's first mission, right, and

(14:31):
then she gave Batrock the information orthe like guns and equipment to go kill
Sam again and set that whole thingup. Why is she trying to kill
Sam? Why did she make herlife harder by working with Sam when they
were going to go find the guythat makes a super soldier serum? You
know, all that did was makeher her life harder. Like there's just

(14:52):
so many things they don't make anysense. That's my problem with it.
Like she's a fine actress. Thecharacter I love. Everybody knows is that
the original Asian Carter was one ofmy favorite characters in the MCU, and
I loved her show. And youknow this, you know, Aunt Peggy
would not be happy. What's happening. There's a lot to unpack there.

(15:16):
Chat is saying that Sharon's a scroll. She could be. Yeah, I've
I've seen that theory out there,and that would make me feel a little
bit better for sure. So butwe'll see if that pays off in Secret
Invasion, then that's fine. Yeah, it does make it better, right
because then inconsistency is because they're justtrying to screw his stuff. Sure,
right, but then it also islike that does that completely undermine her role

(15:37):
in the show if you like,oh, she was asleep the whole time,
you know, like that kind ofthing. I don't know, it's
it's weird. Well, the wholescroll concept definitely causes issues like that.
There's a lot of people that youknow, are saying that Nick Fury has
been dead since The Winter Soldier,you know, and that changes replaced in
the Underground Hospital exactly, you know, and if anything, that actually almost

(16:03):
makes because that was really my onlycomplaint on The Winter Soldier was the Nick
Fury subplot, and that makes thatbetter for me because then there's at least
a reason for all of it insteadof just a sad fake out. But
you know, there you go,that would be That's that's gonna be the
whole problem with Secret or Invasion becausesome things that we've thought were true this

(16:27):
whole time we're gonna get turned onits edge and we can't really focus on
that now with like yeah, exactly, like she's if she's a scroll,
wonderful, but like we can't justyou know, we have to judge the
show on its own merits. Yeah, and they take the problems for the
show on its own merits and notjust be like, well, she's a
scroll, so it's all okay.And here's the thing. Sharon Carter has

(16:52):
no merits and has been one ofthe worst additions to the cap storyline since
she was introduced. They have noidea what they're doing with her, and
every step seems worse than the lastone. So just kill her. Already

(17:15):
kill her, kill her. Imean she's already slept with her uncle,
right, So that's the only timewe're gonna see me react like that to
sex with softer. After the shangChi trailer dropped, there was a scene
that takes place in Mad Report,and there was with Eury coming out that

(17:37):
maybe the Mandarin was the power brokerum and I would have I feel like
I would have liked that a lotmore. But to be fair, I
would have liked almost anything more thanSharon Carter being the power broker. So
I don't know, but I'm alittle disappointed with how that played out.
To be fair, she never saysshe's the power broker. Somebody else calls
her the power broker and she justdoesn't respond. Yeah, doesn't. Yeah,

(18:00):
So maybe the whole thing was aI don't know it. It is
equally plausible that while she was sayingthe powerbroker was a he, that she
was lying because it was her.That's just as likely as her lying now
when someone says she's the powerbroker andher just going along with it, those
are equally likely, right, right, And that's fine. Um, And

(18:21):
I did have this complaint. Sotowards the end of the episode, right
when you know, Sharon gets shotright in the gut and you know they
have the whole standoff and everything,and then she kills Carly and Carly is
like the super soldier and she goesdown and Shannon's Sharon somehow just she's fine,
She's walks it off. Well,why is that a problem? I

(18:42):
mean, Sharon was a trained operativeby shield. So of course she's going
to be able to make a killshot easier than Carly, who's just this
random person with the super soldiers here, I mean super soldiers here. Cap
was not bulletproof, no sulletproof.Not saying she should have been bulletproof.
I'm just saying she died real quick. Yeah, she got shot in the

(19:02):
heart by someone who was a trainedagent with sheel. I mean, I
don't have any problem with that.It didn't look like a heart shot for
me. But she got shot someplaceshot. Heart isn't the only place that'll
kill you. I mean, I'mjust saying she was double shot versus you
know, double tapped versus Carter,who was not. That's true. That's

(19:23):
true. Carter is so much bettershot than Carly is if she's had a
lot more training, Yeah, withguns, so like just slat out.
Yeah. Also, it is verylikely, based on what Carter was doing
in the episode where they go andfind the scientists, that she has something

(19:48):
a little funky in her system nowtoo, I'd be disappointed if they made
her a super soldier, but whatever, I'd rather be a scroll than a
super soldier at this point. Itseems very weird that, like, it
seems like everybody's a super soldier,everybody but Sam. Everybody would Sam,
he doesn't want it, And Ithink that's like just the best. Yeah,

(20:11):
and then the will Condens designed hima suit to compensate for the fact
that he isn't a super soldier.I mean the fact that, you know,
when he's punching people and he usesthe rockets to give him super soldier
like strength, that's cool, right, Or like when he's able to lift
that van or whatever it was becauseof the rockets and then using his little

(20:32):
red wing boosters, that was cool. He was able to do something that
that Steve Rogers wouldn't have been ableto do. I mean he was he
had the st Steve had the strengthto do it, but he can't fly,
so he wouldn't been able to getin front of it and push that
thing up. So um yeah,I like that. They're like they're making
him a different cap. It's notthe same cap, you know, and

(20:53):
they're giving him ways to still besuperhuman performance without actually being a superhuman,
which is cool. Absolutely. Yeah, those are some really good points.
So Walker shows back up with hisnew shield that doesn't last very long.
Yeah, that gets crumpled in liketwo seconds. Fantastic. Yeah. Oh

(21:17):
that made me feel so good becauseI was like, where's he gonna get
some fucking vibranium? And he didn'tlike aluminum or like stainless steel or like
what does this made out? Itdoesn't matter. It gets crushed like five
I assumed it was steel, butyeah, I mean it got it got
destroyed out faster than I thought itwas going into. Yeah, it was

(21:37):
really quick. I did like though, how like it doesn't um it doesn't
bounce off the way the vibranium shielddoes. I thought that sound like the
vibranium shield when it hits. Yeaheither. I thought those were really nice
notes because like the shield has beenin the MCU for a long time now,
so like you're used to it actingsand sounding a certain way, and
it's just a dud. Right.It just felt like a knockoff the whole

(22:00):
time. I like that a lot. Yeah, what did you What did
you think of Walker in this though? Because his story kind of goes a
different route than I anticipated. Well, I mean we've been saying that he's
going to be a part of theThunderbolts and get a new suit for like
the entire show, not that parthim. Yeah, but I mean,
like what his character does throughout thebulk of the episode and how he wraps

(22:22):
things up at the end with Buckyis definitely not how I would have guessed.
Well. I mean, if you'veread the comics or ha many familiarity
with the comics, then you knowthat he's kind of an anti hero.
You don't, you're not supposed tolike him, but sometimes he does do
the right thing. You know,a lot of anti heroes are that way,
great great area characters. You know, they're kind of pieces of shit

(22:44):
most of the time, but thenyou know they'll help the heroes if it
fits their agenda. And I thinkin this case, it fit his agenda,
and you know, it worked out. I'm glad that they didn't really
redeem him, of course, butI'm glad that they kind of gave him
a more positive note to leave onand so he wasn't just like mustache twirling
villain at the end. And Ilike the new black suit. It's pretty

(23:08):
cool. It has white on ittoo, which is interesting because we had
commented on the costume design pieces fromhis other suit. So the suit also
fit him a lot better too,was design stations right exactly? Yeah,
so it just looked better anyway,Ray, what did you think I have
Bucky suit or a Walker's suit,just Walkers Walker's character and the episode and

(23:32):
the stuff that like his arc Walker'scharacter on. You know, the other
hand of Sharon's gets better every episodeevery time I see him, and it's
because he, uh, he isjust so complicated and so complex, and

(23:52):
they put a lot of layers inthis guy. Having the dichotomy of him
wanting to kill Carly and then savingthe people, saving the senators and fellow
politicians on the truck is just it'sso incredible. This guy is absolute gray

(24:22):
and he can be pushed and manipulatedwhen he thinks he's doing the correct thing,
like everything so revolved around his egothat he doesn't even realize how easy
it is to manipulate him. It'spretty incredible because we haven't seen Marvel villain

(24:48):
like this that's developed to this degree. You know, we have seen megalomaniacs
before, but unfortunately they're all likeall rich Killian who have a freak out
and then you know, die reallyfast. Whereas this guy is pushed to

(25:08):
his limits, then brought back down, then pushed again, and it's it's
gonna be really cool watching him andwhatever the next project is, whether that
is, you know, a CAPfour or whatever show he appears in next.
Are you guys still on Team Thunderbolts, the Ice or Dark Avengers.

(25:33):
I don't think that they're going toget their own stuff yet. I think
they're going to be introduced, likemaybe that's what CAP four is about.
Yeah, I'm still on the ofthe opinion that I think it's gonna be.
She's she's going to be like aNick Fury type role for like the
Villains, right, maybe she'll goget Agatha Harkness and they already have Zemo
and Walker at this point. Soyeah, I think she's going to show

(25:59):
up in each of the shows.Probably might recruit Loki. Ghost is a
possibility, and I think I bringup Ghosts whenever we talk about Thunderbolts or
Dark Avengers for a couple of differentreasons. One, so far, she's
like the only female up until Iguess the Hartness that was still alive.

(26:22):
You know, the only other twofemale villains were Hella and Maya Hanson,
and both of those are assumed deadat the end and dead as they get
in comic books. Yeah, sothere's that. But also, you know,
her character had a continuation at theend that they didn't touch on.

(26:47):
So I didn't think in Aunt Manand the Wasp she was very interesting herself
because there was so much other stuffgoing on. But I thought she had
the potential to be interesting. Somaybe they will continue with her, or
maybe they will, Yeah, Iguess we'll see. I definitely don't see

(27:11):
them going with Dark Avengers because Thunderboltsis just a much better marketing term for
the movies and the shows. Youknow, Dark Avengers is a little too
comic bookie, Right, who's goingto go around actually calling themselves that?
Nobody? Right? But Thunderbolts that'sa pretty cool name actually, And you
know, having a series or amovie called, you know, the you

(27:33):
know, called Thunderbolts is great.And I can already picture what that font
might even look like. So ifthey get a name at all, it
won't be Dark Avengers, right.Oh, I completely agree. That's the
issue with Young Avengers, New Avengers, Secret Avengers. There's too many different
teams and when you get to Trademarsand yeah, they only fight. Okay,

(27:59):
it's true, but when you getto all that, it's difficult to
market it. You know, it'sdifficult for even the most dedicated fans to
keep things separated. So I don'tthink that I think we're gonna get different
names for these people. They'll eithercome up with them on their own or

(28:21):
they'll pull from the comics. ButThunderbolts is definitely more marketable, that's for
sure. For sure, very veryfair. Uh. You know, there
were a couple other moments in Walker'skind of big confrontation. You know,
Carly points out that like Battlestar didn'tmatter, you know, to to her
at all. You know, hisdeath was was meaningless and all these other

(28:42):
things. I audibly like said,oh shit. I think like when she
said those words, I was like, Oh, you're gonna get it,
motherfucker. Like right, Like,there just comes a point where you're just
saying the wrong thing on purpose,right, Like, she's seems pretty smart
throughout the season. Why does shethink that's the right thing to say in

(29:04):
that moment. I feel like Carlyis the opposite of John Walker, and
her character gets just worse every episodebecause she seems less intelligent than she did
the episode beforehand, and maybe that'spoor writing for her, or maybe that's

(29:25):
just her mentality going nuts, becauseit really does feel like she is the
rat in the maze trying to getthe cheese but keeps getting electrocuted. Like
she keeps getting pushed up against allof these walls and she has to find
her way to push through or digherself out, and each way is more

(29:48):
desperate than the last. So she'smaking uninformed, rash, violent decisions that
go against what she actually stands for. So some of that could have been
the cut stuff that we talked aboutto the plot line that was clearly cut
out, so they had to likerepurpose things to make this one plot line

(30:08):
work. So it's I'm not tryingto justify anything, but maybe they had
to make her look a little weirdby you know, splicing things together.
Who knows, I mean, we'llnever know the true story overall. You
know, COVID didn't do as muchdamage to the show as I initially thought

(30:29):
it was going to. I think, you know, they had to do
justice to Falcon and to win hersoldier, and everybody else kind of takes
a back seat, and you know, Carly's story. No matter what was
going to end with her dying,she was never going to stop. So

(30:52):
either this show or something else,she was going to die. That was
pretty obvious from a storytelling point ofview. But it was just a matter
of when and I guess how andwho, like who was going to put
her down. Yeah, I thinkthat's fair. It is just it is
kind of a shame because it's yetanother Marvel villain that they've killed off.

(31:15):
You know, they killed off twoin this episode, and it's just it's
a problem with the MCU has hadfor a really long time because you can't
bring these she didn't really get.She didn't really get enough development to really
make me care that she's dead anyway. I mean also fair. In the
comics, Flag Smasher is a singularindividual, right, and this it's a

(31:36):
group, So the group could continueon and she's something more. Just because
she's dead doesn't doesn't stop. Therecould be other super Soldiers out there.
I mean, I didn't go throughand do the math of the you know,
how many were killed versus how manyserums were taken. I'm sure there's
probably a couple at least they areunaccounted for but that would be interesting to
find out. But I mean,the flag Smashers can live on without her,

(31:59):
and maybe I'll have somebody that theycan make a little more sympathetic.
She was a little sympathetic in thebeginning, it got less and less so
throughout the series. Oh yeah,I mean for me, it kind of
ended when she threatened Sarah and thekids. I was like, all right,
well that's that because, like,until then, I didn't agree with
her methods, but I understood,you know why. Yeah, I understood

(32:22):
it. And the general message ofwhat happened during the blip is huge,
and there's there's a lot to that. There's a lot to unpack that in
itself could be an entire series justthat concept. And yeah, then she
starts threatening civilians and children and I'mlike, all right, well you lost
me at that point. You know. So now chat is talking about Bucky's

(32:45):
amends, and I really do wantto talk about that as well. So
I say we take a short breakand when we come back, we talk
a bit about Bucky's story in thefinale, We'll be right back. Everybody,
all right, we're back, We'reback. Let's talk Bucky. So

(33:06):
Bucky is great in this episode.I like, I like this character more
like every time I see him onthis show, I really do. I
was not that into the character prior. It's nothing against Sebastian stand I like
him a lot as a person,but I feel like this show cemented the
character of Bucky for me as acharacter I can actually like and get into.

(33:30):
What did you guys think of himthroughout this episode or the season?
Oh, he was wonderful in this, Like I am with you one hundred
percent on that. I did notunderstand the Bucky hype before this, and
this gives me a reason to geton that train. I think it's absolutely

(33:52):
wonderful what they've done and who heis, and the slow progression and characterization
they gave for him was great.With one exception, and that is the
tough moment they had been building upto this entire series where he tells the

(34:15):
old Man that he was the onewho murdered his son and that I didn't
feel like that was given enough weightbecause of how important it was. And
I do appreciate the scene right afterwhere he looks at him and like the

(34:36):
old Man's finally like happy and smiling, and that's nice. But it just
it didn't feel as heavy as itshould have been. And I don't know
what should have been cut, becausehonestly, I absolutely adored Captain America's speech
at the end. At first,I was like, this is a little

(34:59):
long, it's a little sa timonious, and I was like, no,
this is what comics are. Howmany Captain America comics have you read ray
that have like two or three pagesof a great speech from CAP like this
is this is what the comics are. And you got to remember that too.

(35:20):
So I love that, and Iloved his closure with Isaiah Bradley at
the museum. But I also feltthat Bucky needed his closure so well to
that point real quick. They didn'thave to set to a specific time because
this wasn't on cable. So you'reright, I don't think they should have
cut any of the stuff that youjust mentioned. That doesn't mean they couldn't

(35:44):
have included a longer exchange with Buckyand the older man. I don't know,
Maybe I'm wrong. Was anybody happywith that chat or Okay? No,
I also wasn't happy with Sam's thing, But we'll get to that.
Yeah, we'll get we'll get this. I figured we finished with sound.
But yeah, but Bucky was wonderfulthroughout the series. The series, you

(36:07):
know, we talked about him inWaconda with the like you're now free thing
was great. Um, you know, seeing him smile and the friendship between
him and Sam develop into something,you know where they were really close.
All that was great right up untilthis episode that was so disappointing. I
mean, they didn't need to adda lot to it. They just needed

(36:30):
to let it breathe. Just letit breathe, like give it a second
for the characters to let it sinkin and just give us a little more.
Like it was so fast, itwas like one cut and then it
like went by some burning incense andthat was the end of the scene.
And it was That was the probablythe biggest disappointment of the whole season for
me, was the fact that wedidn't get to see the man's immediate reaction.

(36:53):
I think takes all of the heavinessout of it. And maybe it's
because something like that was just goingto be way too hard. Maybe I
don't know, but things are hardlike that, things are hard, you
know that the life is hard,and they haven't strayed away from you know,
racism is hard, you know,dealing with racism and dealing with PTSD

(37:15):
and trauma, and they were theywere dealing with that, but this one
moment was too hard for them todeal it. I mean that that that's
come on, especially when you haveIsaiah scene, not not in this episode,
but the previous episode between. Yeah, that's like equally as tough of
a scene, you know. MI agree. I don't think there's really
any excuse for it, especially atthis point in the MCU, Like,

(37:37):
yeah, an iron man doing somethinglike that was probably something out of their
wheelhouse. But come on, atthis particular point, you can hire anybody
in the world to help you writethat scene. That's what the problem is,
you know. And I don't believethat the actors couldn't pull it off.
I just don't believe that. I'veseen difficult scenes in movies with a
very wide range of talent, andgiving us something would have been good.

(38:02):
Yeah, yeah, like it justjust a few more seconds of just like
letting the scene develop a little bit, you know, anything, and just
that sudden cut was I was like, was that it? I was?
I was so disappointed. I keptexpecting it to come back, you know
until obviously, you know, atthe end. But like, yeah,
because they tease this, not teaseteases feels inappropriate for the tone. But

(38:27):
they've they've been alluding to this theentire season, right, it's been like
literally the thing hanging over Bucky's head. He's had nightmares about it. It's
the one name on his list.It's the one thing that isn't you know,
retribution or avenging. It's the onereal thing that he needs to do,
and it's completely ignored, glossed over, one hundred percent. I almost

(38:49):
would have rather of them just forgottenabout it. Yeah, yeah, because
the disappointment was worse than just nothing. Well because at least if it was
nothing, you know, I wouldhave been like a man, they must
have had to cut it for timeor and then I probably would have you
know, explained that away. Buthaving seen that they were intending to do
it, and that's what they gaveus, Yeah, Like you couldn't give

(39:09):
us fifteen more seconds, thirty moreseconds a minute, Like you can't squeeze
that time out of your six hourshow? Come on. Yeah, and
this episode was shorter than the previousepisode, so it's like, you know,
there's Yeah, there's no reason forit. When your shows on cable.
I understand that you have a lotof restrictions with time. I totally
get that. That's why shows evenhave multiple lengths of their intros to adjust

(39:30):
for that. They don't have thatexcuse here, right, And they don't
have it like a even movies haveit because theaters want you to stay under
certain times. They can do anythingthey want. It's their streaming service,
you know, And so I justit was unfortunate. That was disappointing.
All the other stuff with Bucky though, was great, you know, like

(39:50):
the cookout at the end and thekids hanging off of his arm. And
I liked the little thing with thecop when he walked by the copies like
Sergeant Barnes and he showed because thatkind of shows it. There's more,
there's people I actually like. Despitethe what the image of him is out
in the world, he's you know, still pretty well respected. So yeah,
there's some really good moments um AndI even liked some of the stuff

(40:15):
between with him and Walker, youknow, because clearly it was almost it
seems a little unfair because Walker isobviously not a good guy in this or
anything, but the relationship between Buckyand Walker in this episode felt a lot
like how Bucky and Sam's relationship waswhen we first see them at the beginning
of the season or even in CivilWar. Yeah, definitely. Well it

(40:37):
kind of shows you what could be. You know what, Bucky and Sam
became fast friends, and Walker andBucky could be. But they're not going
to be right right now, Idon't like, I mean, come on,
right, Bucky and Sarah, Sam'ssister, Like, there's there's something

(40:59):
there, right, he's just flirting. Yeah, he's starting to feel free
because remember that was that whole thingwas just a throwback to the fact that
he couldn't flirt in the beginning ofthe show and he had lost all of
his mojo because you go all theway back to Captain America, he gets
both women. Yeah, he wasa layer. So everything was trying to

(41:21):
show just how much the Winner Soldierlike sucked out of him that he can't
even like smile at a woman anymore. Right, he had to have the
old guy do it for him.And now like it's all playful, it's
all fun. He's doing it withhis best friend's sister and she's making his

(41:42):
friend basically, you know, yeah, well because he I mean, he
hated himself, right, and likewe talked about this earlier. You know,
he's sleeping on the couch at Sarah'splace, not on the floor anymore,
and like we really get to seehim grow. And that's what like
what I love about having these thingsa series and not being twenty seven episode
seasons either, Like just having thesenight nice, tight, you know,
six to eight hour seasons are justreally great, great for character development.

(42:07):
Absolutely, all right, So anythingelse, I'm bucky. Anything I'm forgetting,
I'm bucky. Okay, all right, So Sam, we've talked about
the suit a bit. We've talkedabout him kind of peppered in between.
I want to make sure we getsome time to focus on focus on him
a bit. Going back to thespeech. You know, I love the

(42:28):
speech. I thought it was great. I wish we we talked to politicians
like that more often, because there'sthis sense in this country that we all
have to have this fake politeness whentalking to anybody who has any sense of
authority or anything like that, whenin reality they don't. They're being they're
being assholes, and we should justbe able to say that when they are.

(42:51):
And the fact that Sam is outthere in front of the world speaking
to these people like like he knowsbetter because he does, you know,
he seemed more, he's experienced more'she gets it, and they just don't
want to. And I really likethat. The problem is that's, oh

(43:14):
sorry, I'm not looking at Chat, so I don't know why, and
like they're they're talking. But theproblem is that today's politicians believe they run
the country and they use their power, they use their money to do that,
and in all honesty, they arecivil servants. They are supposed to
be working for us. We aretheir bosses, not the other way around.

(43:37):
And you know, this monologue waswell delivered, well intentioned, and
it kind of puts that mirror backin front of them, like you you
can do all this stuff, andyou do all this stuff, but you
have no idea who it actually affectsbecause you get to go home and go

(43:59):
to sleep and you're civil liberties aren'tchanged. Yeah, I think that's good.
And Chat pointed out that there's kindof a bit of symmetry between this
speech of Sam's and cap speech andthe Winter Soldier. Now it's been a
while since I've seen that, soI'm drawing a bit of a blank.
Do either of you recall that speech? Well, he makes a few speeches,

(44:22):
but like which, okay, whichone? Like they didn't specify,
So I just wanted to point itout because I'm not recalling that. So
no big deal, No big deal. Well I'm gonna go on the opposite
end of the two of you ifyou want. No. No, Look,
I love the what they were tryingto do with that speech, right,

(44:45):
and I understand the parallels, andI understand these things. But like
Sam saying, this woman's not aterrorist, she literally blew up buildings a
full of innocent people and killed innocentpeople, like she's literally the definition of
terrorists, Well it would apply toeverything she did. She is a terrorist.
So Sam, I understand what you'retrying to say, but I just

(45:06):
don't think it really got there forme, because she is a terrorist and
her group are terrorists. They've killeda lot of innocent people and inspired terror
like they were trying to inspire terrorinto people, so they succeeded, and
they are terrorists. So I agreewith you. I think the point was
that she didn't have to be aterrorist because she was she was put.

(45:29):
The idea is that people like thesesenators are pushing people into these decisions.
I understand these things that you're saying. Like, like I said, I
understand where they were trying to gowith the speech. I just don't think
that it was executed as well asI would have liked it. The other
part of it that I didn't lovewas, you know, he told them

(45:49):
they need to do better. Right, we all think that the politicians need
to do better. Everything you guyssaid about that is true, and I
agree, But like you know,if you're going to tell them to do
better and they're going to ask youhow to do better, and you have
nothing to give them, you know, like they're just people too. And
granted maybe in real life they're justpeople with more money and they're probably evil

(46:10):
and things like that. Even inthis universe they're probably evil, but you
need to like have something. Justsaying do better and giving them no way
to do better is that that doesn'treally solve anything, you know what I
mean? I mean, obviously havingan alternative would be better than not having
one. But I also think thatbecause this happens in the real world,

(46:30):
I've I've actually seen this happen inreal life on the news where it's it's
also kind of unreasonable for a governmentwith essentially unlimited resources to ask an everyday
citizen for the ideas that the billionsof dollars should have come up with,
you know what I mean. Butin the scene, he's the one there,

(46:53):
he knows them, like he's choosingto make the speech. They're not
saying you need to make this eachyou know what I mean, Like all
this is choice by him. Soif you're going to bring this up to
have something and I but I agree, you know, the government and they
end up like recalling the vote ornot doing the vote. And so his
speech made an impact, right,so maybe they used those billions of dollars

(47:15):
and use their resources, uh,you know, to come up with something.
So you know, in the endit accomplished what you wanted to do.
I just didn't think the way thatthe speech was written was I don't
know, it seemed a little weirdto me, as all that's the way
it was done. There have beenbetter, better speeches, you know,

(47:36):
um, but the MC has neverreally tried to do this before. So
for a first attempt, I thoughtit was pretty good. Yeah, Like
I said, I love what theythat they tried to do something there.
I just don't necessarily think it wasexecuted the way I you know, everything
in the MCU will not everything.A lot of the things in the MC
are done really really well, andthey you know, even through this series,

(47:57):
the way they handled racism and theway they handled PTSD, in the
way they handled a lot of things. In the end, I'm really happy
with how they handled it, andI think they did especially considering it's Disney.
Um you know, I think theyhandled it really well. I just
didn't think that that was quite thebow on top that I wanted it to
be. Unfortunately, I actually ifI kind of felt like that throughout this
whole final episode. Unfortunately, nownothing really wrapped up the way I wanted

(48:22):
it too, personally, and that'smore a problem with me, I guess,
than anything else. But um,yeah, I felt a little disappointed
by by the way everything kind ofwrapped up on this one. Except captas
Captain America or SAMAS Captain America.I think that's great. I'm glad they
finally gave us a good like wegot Steve Rodgers how he earned the cap
roll and so now we get Samand how he earned the cap roll,

(48:45):
and I like that. So Ithink that they had that was handled well,
but basically everything else for me wasa little disappointing. It is it
is nice that, like it wasn'treally handed to either of them. You
know, they both had to gothrough something to to get that mantle in
the real way, which which wasnice. I do like that. I
and the title card at the end, you know where they change the name

(49:07):
and it's Captain America and the WinterSoldier, and I mean that that's nice.
Why are they still calling Bucky theWinter Soldier at this point? I
assume it's the same reason that youcall an or like an alcoholic sort of
first themselves as an alcoholic, evenif they're in recovery and sober for twenty
years. Because if you forget whereyou came from, at least is the
way I took it, I couldbe way up based. If you forget

(49:29):
you know that, then you standthe chance of becoming that again. Does
that make sense? Like it's avery interesting perspective. Have to like keep
that in the front of your mind. I don't love that. I would
have rather been Captain America in theWhite Wolf, but I understand maybe,
like I said, maybe I'm readingtoo much into it, but that's the
way I took it, that hedoesn't necessarily want to shed that title because

(49:49):
he needs It's a part of himand he needs to be aware of that
part of him and not just forgetabout it. It's interesting, ray any
thoughts on that. I I don'tthink white Wolf suits him anymore, especially
since and told him to stay outof Waconda for a while, and I

(50:10):
don't think the win Our Soldier suitshim. I think Bucky deserves a new
call sign. I think it shouldbe something that comes from him, because
all these other names are things thatpeople have given to him. So I
think that at this point, hischaracter has been through so much, he

(50:31):
should be like, no, thisis who I am. Like Bucky deserves
that moment at this point. So, you know, if the show gets
a season two, which they've talkedabout, and of course we know there's
a CAP four and I assume Bucky'sgoing to be a part of it,
then go outside the comics on thisone and give him his new identity,

(50:55):
something that better suits who he is. Now. Definitely okay with that,
Yeah, it did feel weird stillcalling him the Winter Soldier despite all the
progression that he's made. And yeah, you're right, White Wolf doesn't really
suit him either. It's a toughspot to be in, but it is
weird. They ended well, buthow are they How are they going to
end it? You know what Imean? They can't just give him a
new name, like right, Sure, I think it makes sense that that's

(51:16):
how they ended it, but Ithink going forward he needs something different,
right, I mean, what theone thing they could have done that I
personally think gets the same effect ofgiving Sam the Captain American name is instead
of having a title card, theycould have said Captain America and Bucky will
return, you know, like we'veseen at the end of a lot of

(51:37):
movies. I think they could havedone that and it had the same effect.
That's likely. Yeah, he couldgo by his true name, which
is Mephisto. Dare you all theway that we should have like a little
jingle that plays on the recorded versionevery time one of us so yeah,

(52:00):
yeah, something that says like Mephisto. I'll see what I can do for
future episodes. We'll put tech supporton that. Yeah, but this will
give people incentive to join us livefor when the que for Mephisto is and
then listen to it for our Methistojingle. That's right, Oh man,

(52:22):
Uh see the jokes on Mephisto isnever going to show up in the mcpe
there was a there was a devilin the stained glass in the Lokey trailers.
That's Ralph. That's just Ralph,Ralph Boner. Oh god. I
saw a interview today with Evan Peters. He had no idea that his characters

(52:44):
name was Ralph Boner until the seasonFINALES script came out and he was like,
this is amazing. He wasn't disappointed, No, no, he loved
it. He knew he wasn't goingto be playing like actual Quicksilver or Mephisto
or anything like that. He knewhis character was like a red herring.

(53:07):
Gotcha. I just don't think Iever would have found that joke funny.
So I'm not the right person forthat role. I think they picked the
right guy. You know, Iknow I was a close second, but
right, Wait, what do youmean you never thought? You don't think
that you would have been the rightone too. I don't think the Ralph

(53:28):
Boner joke is funny. I don'tthink it's you don't think just like him
turning around and giggling at Boner,it's just like a silly joke. Like,
Oh, I think it's a sillyjoke. I don't think it's a
funny joke. Those are two differentthing. It is definitely silly. It's
definitely silly. Fine, all right, so we got what else we got

(53:51):
here? We have the the Isaiahscene. So Sam goes to see Isaiah
again, right, and brings himto the museum where there's a new exhibit
that focuses on Isaiah and his contributions. That was pretty cool. That was
yeah, like the equivalent of whatthe scene Bucky should have gotten was right.
That was a moving scene. Um, that was very important in the

(54:14):
context of our real reality. Andyou know in MCU that he's never gonna
be forgotten now, um, andits sacrifice is never going to be forgotten.
So yeah, I mean that wasa great scene. It just disappoints
me more because the equivalent Bucky didn'tget the equivalent scene. Um. You
know, it shows me that theycould do it right because the emotion is

(54:35):
really powerful in that scene, andyou know, Um, Carl lum Lumbly
is awesome, Like he just reallybrings a lot of passion to that through
the whole season. He was great. Yeah, and it just it was
a great end cap to that,to that story. And yeah, I
think it just it shows that theycould have handled it with Bucky, you
know, the writers could have handledit, the direction could have handled it,

(54:58):
right, um, And but Ithought it was good. I was
glad to see a resolution to thatbecause the whole time, you know,
Isaiah's talking about how they're not gonnalet there be a black captain America and
you know, really given Sam ahard time about his optimism and all these
other things, and even still kindof giving them jabs after the speech,
you know when he's legit in thesuit and everything, and it just it

(55:21):
ended on a really emotional nice note. Agreed, Yeah, I like that
scene. What else? Is thereanything else from the episode, the season,
anything about these characters that you wantto make sure we touch on before
we wrap up. No, Iwant Sharon Carter to be wrapped up like

(55:45):
in a rug, Yeah, exactson, and be done with that, and
then the Mandarin's gonna be like,oh I see a Powerbroker opening. Let
me take that man, because likeyou know, they have the post credit
scene and everything where she's pardoned andshe yeah, it does the phone call
that you talked about, and like, I mean that means they have to
have plans for her, right,Yeah, it's setting up Armor Wars.

(56:08):
Yeah, I guess. I meanI want to think that she's talking to
Oscarp, but I think it's definitelya setup for Armor Wars. Yeah.
I guess I wasn't thinking about that. Sounds so dumb, like I just
want anything else to happen. She'slike, I'm gonna screw up every single
Marvel TV show from now on,and she's just gonna show up in all

(56:30):
these shows and be consistently the worstpart of them. Maybe she won't be
in She Hulk, or maybe shewill be. Maybe she'll be She Hulk.
It'll be like a secret evil evilHulk, evil evil Powerbroker she Hulk,
and then she's still alive at theend of the season so she can
go ruin some more stuff. It'sdisappointing too, because she's like the actress

(56:53):
is great, you know, justI don't know she could have been better,
and and it's disappointing when it's justcrap, crap, crap cry.
There was one throwaway line in theepisode that I think is at least worth
touching on. So, Steve Rogersis on the moon. Did you guys

(57:15):
catch that line? Yeah? Theysaid it earlier in the series, didn't
they. I must have missed itearlier. Yeah, the right in the
first episode, the guy that waswith Sam was like, is it true
that Steve or that Captain America ison the moon? Right? I forgot
about it? Just a reference tothat, Yeah, okay, I forgot
about that. I thought it wasfunny. Okay, I thought it was

(57:35):
silly. Yeah, well you didn't. I didn't care either way. I
thought Ralph Boner was better. Youwould whoa, what does that mean?
Oh? I think you know?All right, So I think that's it
then for the Falcon and the WinterSoldier for Captain America and the Winner Sore

(58:00):
for Sam and Bucky season one.Yeah, all right. So then next
week, like I said earlier,it is two hundred and fifty episodes in
the making, we are starting theMCU Revisited segment of a new monthly segment.
We're doing kicking things off with IronMan, so go rewatch Iron Man
with us and talk about it nextweek with us. Thank you to everybody

(58:23):
who joined us in chat. Wereally appreciate it. You can join us
every Tuesday night at nine pm Easternon the Screen Heroes Podcast facebook page and
our Heroes Podcast Forum group on Facebookand chat with us live during the show.
We would really appreciate that when yousay stuff that's relevant, it comes
up, so we appreciate all ofthat. You can find us at screen

(58:45):
dash heroes dot com for all ofour social media links. The show is
available on pretty much every podcast appyou can think of. If it's not
on yours, let me know.We'll figure something out. Leave us a
review. If you leave us areview of our podcast, we will read
it on the show. So ApplePodcasts, podcast Addict, Stitchers, a
few other places that allow reviews,so we would appreciate that it helps people

(59:08):
find our show. Ray, ifpeople want to talk to you about Captain
in America or The Winter Soldier orboth, how can they do that?
Ah? Yeah, I am atsyon Ray on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
And Ryan if people want to talkto you about why Sharon is the

(59:30):
best power broker, How can theyfind that's what you want to talk to
me about. Yeah, I don'twant to talk to you whatever. They
want to talk to you about Ghostbusters. So then there you go. You
can find me at Buster Props andI'm at the Star Trek. Dude.
We are the Screen Heroes Podcast.Find us at Screen Heroes Pod on Twitter.
Thank you everybody. We will catchyou next week. M hm back,

(01:00:08):
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