March 11, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode, Ben and Carl dive into that tricky moment we all face: deciding when to follow a reference mix and when to trust your own instincts. Sparked by Carl's current remix project, they get real about the messy balancing act of honoring artist expectations while still trusting your gut.
Discover:
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
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Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Discover:
- The challenging balancing act when artists love both their rough mix and reference tracks that sound nothing alike
- How to have patient conversations with self-producing artists about conflicting references
- The difference between referencing for skill-building versus creative direction
- Practical approaches to using reference tracks without becoming overly technical or losing your unique sound
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
First, a couple of weeks ago, you teased us with
the Wig Company commercial and you refuse to play that.
Now you're talking about a parody song, Okay, and then
I'll send it to you. I'll make sure that I
send it to everybody else expected at the next email blast.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Guys, check out this Wig Company. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm in the market.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm in the market.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to Secret Sonics,
Honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to help you
build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 5 (00:44):
Let's get started. Hi, Ben, Hi Carl. It's been a
long time, has it. Yeah, it's been a long.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Time since we recorded the last episode about three minutes ago.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Well, I know, it's been a long time since I've
rock and rolled, Dan. Now been a long time since
hit the Stroll was like a little Zeppelin for you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I was just trying to think of, like, how long
can I be intentionally awkwardly silent and just see how
far you take that?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Just see how like if you go like.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I get I get to the guitar solo.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Okay, I was one.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I'm like, I was hoping I just let it go
and then uh sit here awkwardly and watch you go
through the entirety of rock and roll and then also
start going into battle of evermore just because you didn't
know you just you couldn't stop. I was hoping you
just could get on this train and just would not.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
When it comes to Zeppelin, there's a chance I couldn't stop.
So that's a fair point.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So today's topic, this is something that I was dealing
with last night and actually earlier this morning as well,
when I was listening back to a track that I'm
working on. You know, we talked about the portfolio a
couple of weeks ago, and something that I feel like
we can talk about quite a bit our reference fixes.
But I wanted to talk about the creative decision behind
(02:05):
when to follow a reference mix and when not to
follow a reference mix, or specifically what we think of
when we're going through and saying, Okay, I actually like X,
Y and Z about this reference and I think that
can apply.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
But A B and C.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I want it to be different than that. I intentionally
want to kind of differentiate it from there.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
So when you're saying, I just want to like clarify
because when you talk about reference mixes, you could be
talking about the artist mix or the producer mix, or
you could be talking about a reference of like led
Zeppelin four.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
So I think it applies to both.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I was initially thinking when I first brought this up,
I was thinking about, oh, comparing it to you know,
a released song, you know, I have an artist that
the artist likes or that I like. But then also
I wasn't even thinking about this. But yesterday I was
working with an artist client, the mixing client of mine,
and we were having the kind of conversation about the
rough mix. So I think it actually applies to both. Yeah,
(02:58):
So I feel like for me, it's always a tricky
judgment call that doesn't always have a very clean answer,
and it's a lot of trial and narrative decide like
what kind of inspiration I want to take from the
reference versus saying no, like this is not necessarily objectively
better or worse, but just maybe this is something that
(03:19):
is going to help this be its own identity. Or
the more difficult thing, which probably a lot of us
have happened a lot. It's when the artist has a
love for the rough mix but also has a love
for reference mixes that are nowhere near each other.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right, Yeah, yeah, so a combination.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That little chuckle you gave made me feel like you've
dealt with that before, Benjamin.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I don't know, actually probably yeah, I think so. I
don't know. I can't think of an example, but I
think so.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It happens to me all the time. Not all the time,
It's happened to me more times than I wish it happened.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
More common would be like this is a rough mix,
and these are the references than anything else. That's most
of the things I'm dealing with. Usually I'm not trying
to like beat a rough mix, and usually I am
like being told like, oh, we like this well.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Also, maybe it is a stylistic thing too, because I
feel like for myself it I guess, let me say this.
It happens to me the most often when it's a
self producing artist, and because I work in a lot
of like Papa Jason styles that tends to be right.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Self producing artists are just like because they have enough
enough skills to be dangerous, right.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So, like the one I was working on last night
or yesterday afternoon with this client, it was, you know,
there's a lot of charm and things in the rough
mix that he liked, but the references that he gave
were not like that. Like he liked the balance of
the rough, but the balance of the rough was very, very,
very different from all the references. And it could be
(04:48):
a very difficult conversation to have if you don't know
how to be patient with them, and it can be
very Yeah, as you know, passionate, emotionally driven creatives, it's
very easy to be like, what the fuck are you
talking about?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
These?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
These are these are two different things. Like it's very
easy to get snippy, very easy to get snippy. And
I think the good thing about me experiencing that so
many times that I've had a lot of practice explaining
it and trying to not be snippy about it. So yeah,
I mean, like that's what happened yesterday. But I think today,
this last night and this morning, I was really thinking
(05:23):
about it from the perspective of, you know, having songs
that we really like and trying to kind of like
not that we're trying to sound like that, but there's
some something in that song that we really do like.
And then when you listen back to you know, your
own finished version, and you're like, oh, this sounds cool
on its own and almost like you're our own version
of demo witis and trying to break free from our
(05:46):
own demo witis. So we get so bad at artists
for having but then we get it too, and trying
to decide, okay, well totally out of all the things
about our song that we like compared to all the
things from the reference that we were trying to encapsulate,
how do we decide what stays and what goes? How
do we decide what do we change versus what do
(06:08):
we keep? Because it is differentiating that song and making
it unique.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
So do you have like a good example maybe of
a reference song and then maybe.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Somethingiso the song that I was working on last night
and this morning. I don't want to say who it's
for yet, but doing a remix for one of my
favorite artists, which is really fun, and the reference that
I had in mind. I've been on a really big
empire of the sun kick who I love love love
love love love love and they have this kind of
(06:40):
like the perfect like bulls eye for the kind of
stuff that I like to work on, because their music
is always like the vocals are always really catchy, the
percussion elements.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Are always really cool.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
There's always so much like texture and nuance, Like it
really is just like spot on for the stuff that
I love, and I was trying to channel that in
this remix I was doing for other artist, and I
got it to the point where I'm like, this feels great,
Like it definitely feels like me. It doesn't sound like
an Empire of the Sound song, but you know, I
was exploring a lot of the kind of like bit
(07:12):
crushed drum sample sounds. I was really trying to push
myself to be way more minimalist on this with it.
I tend to be a bit of a maximalist, and
the end result still feels pretty wall of sound because
I's just like this is how I am and where
my ears take me. I was taking influence from the
simplicity of the arrangement from the other artists applying it
(07:33):
to this remix. But then when I go and I
listen back, and I realize my mix is so bright
and there's so much. There's so many cool things, there's
so much like a lot of a lot of clarity.
But this is very clear mix. I'm really happy with that.
But listening back to some of the songs that I
originally had as my inspiration, it's a lot brighter than that.
(07:56):
And also I feel like, not just the overall master,
but like my drums in general, like my drums on
my instruments just feel a lot brighter relative to the vocals,
for example. And I don't dislike it, but I'm like,
I'm questioning myself there. And then I go back and
I listen to the original version of the song that
I'm remixing, and the master of that is also fairly dark.
(08:19):
And knowing that when this comes out, I don't know
if it'll end up being on like a deluxe version
or it might be just like a standalone single, but
I don't want it to sound wildly off from the
rest of the collection too. So now I'm in this
like internal struggle of Okay, is it like a total
like a master thing where I just, oh, I could
(08:41):
just you know, tweak the EQ on the master bus
because I just went a little to ham on it.
Or is it something where I go through and I'm like,
oh no, I need to just really tame you know,
instrument groupings and try to get closer to that balance.
But also like thinking about the stuff that I've done before,
my stuff tends to be a little bit bright and fun,
(09:03):
and the vibe of this song that I was going for,
like I was really trying to dig into very playful,
happy music. But the whole like lyrical element of this song,
like the whole thing is about like basically like just
not wanting to be social, and like just I don't
want to go anywhere, I don't want to do anything,
Like I don't want to I don't want to give
away the lyrics, so like I don't want to be
(09:24):
too specific, but it's just like I'm trying to create
this juxtaposition of the happiness of the instrumental and also
like the playfulness of the vocal melodies, but juxtaposing that
to the lyrical content. So also like I don't want
to get too dark, because if I make it too dark,
then it's not gonna have as much of that juxtaposition
(09:47):
that I want to have. So I have all these
different kind of like competing emotional reasons and artistic reasons
behind the choices for something as simple of like, oh I.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Think it's too bright.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, that's kind of the thing I'm kind of struggling
with at the moment, And I wanted to ask you, like,
you know, when you're either given references, whether it's a
rough mix or it's a released song that they're referencing,
what are some of the things that you prioritize for
yourself and how do.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
You, yeah, how do you approach that? I don't know, Well,
it's a great question. I guess I do know, but
maybe no a little bit. I'm just like problem solving
for you. I'm just thinking you should try to like
a pass where you just like get everything darker and
just play it and see if it gives you the
same emotional response you know what I mean as the
one that you did, and like try to like give
yourself another day or something and then listen to both
(10:39):
of them back to back and like get some objectivity.
That's sort of my problem solving hat on. That's not
what you asked for, but that's what I'm giving you. Yeah,
I think I don't know if I would ever get
so into the weeds about like if it's brighter.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I mean, maybe that's not even into the.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Weeds, but it's pretty significant.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yeah, when I'm listening to like something that's a reference,
does this kick drum feel like the kind of kick
drum that is appropriate for this sort of a vibe?
You know, maybe it's specific like to kinds of instruments
and their sounds. Okay, if we're going for like a
surfey sound or like a beach guitar sound, like, what
was that gonna sound like? And so you listen to
a bunch of references that sound beachy, and then you
(11:22):
kind of come up with a guitar tone that is
in that ballpark. But then inevitably it changes, you know
what I mean, Like inevitably you're you're gonna make it
fit the song and fit like what you know how
to do best, so you'll end up getting some sort
of mishmash. I think I heard like Phineas talk about
this in interviews, like I try to do this, and
as I'm attempting to do this, I end up doing this,
which is really just me. It's like halfway there, but
(11:43):
like with my own like you know, biases, and then
it becomes like what I sound like, so I feel
like that's what ends up happening for me a lot
in the production stage of things, you know, that beachy
vibe thing. As an example, this is on still in
progress of like we started off trying to make it
very beachy and like it ended up being very like
(12:04):
you know, but with like the reverberated guitars, which was
a vibe just because it fit the song better than
trying to like do like a fast drummy thing. I
don't know, it's hard to answer that question. So for
that song, I guess the inspiration and what we took
from the reference was this is a production, not a mix,
but the reverberant guitars and the kind of genre that
that echoes. And for a mix, it could be like,
(12:27):
we want it to sound like an R and B song,
so it's gonna have a rounder, fuller low end, and
it's gonna be less clicky. And if it's like a
heavy rock song, then I might let's make this a
bit more compressed, a bit more saturated, a bit more like,
let's make the snare be a little brighter. It really
sort of depends, So I guess I'm listening to those
gishdalt things, and sometimes it's spectral, and sometimes it's just
(12:48):
like a vibe, like there's this one thing in this
song that's like really interesting and unique. Maybe it's like
intimate vocals, and maybe the intimate vocals on my song
is less dry and it's more reverberant, but it's still
like the dominant thing that's that's drawing you in. It
kind of can go in any direction. I don't really
have like a hard to like answer this question because
(13:11):
I feel like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
I think that's kind of the maybe the reason for
the question, and everybody listening and yourself and myself probably
all agreed, like yeah, there is no one priority list
of like how to interpret our reference backs, like yes.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
But we all do it. We all have.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
We all interpret reference bixes, whether we're doing it intentionally
or we're just comparing it to other stuff as a
listener that we've enjoyed and that's influenced our tastes and
our preferences. So either way, like whether we have a
explainable framework that we go through or it's just it
is just like a gut feeling, it's still something that
(13:49):
we interpret and take action on. So That's that's why
I think, you know, I don't necessarily have an answer
for like the kind of questions I'm even asking you.
I think it's more like I want to bring to
light the fact that this is something that we all
do instinctively, no matter what. And I feel like the
more that we try to articulate what we've noticed about
(14:10):
ourselves and what we notice about our choices, I think
that is always really valuable information for ourselves, but also
maybe helps us to get closer to the goal suitor.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, because we're conscious of it.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
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and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording. I appreciate what you bring to the table,
let alone pay their rates. You want to get paid,
(14:43):
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(15:03):
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Speaker 4 (15:10):
And I'm curious if you use one of these reference
mix plugins like I forgot what's called the one from
plug an alliance like metric ab or something. Are you
interested in those things? Like do you do them? And
if so, does it help.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
You done it?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
There was one time I'm really sad this song never
came out, but I clent I was working with for
years and years and years and years. We did sort
of like a kind of just like a fun challenge
for ourselves where we try to recreate Terrible Lie by
Lennich Nails, like from their first record. I love that song,
but we were trying to like see how close to
(15:44):
the original we could get it. And because of that
I was actually using I think I maybe got a
trial of the metric Ab or I did something I
might have been either a plug in or I might
have just been like dropping it in my session, but
I was trying to be more consciously like it because
that was the challenge of it. It was like how
close can we make this?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, And that's a great challenge to do. By the way,
there was so much.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
One project I did.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
This is God, this is probably nine years ago now
I got hired to do. This is when I was
still I think this is when I just left Cheerleader.
I hadn't quite gotten into like the full production swing
of things.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Did.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
It was like I was in touring band for a while,
and like I just left the band and I was
just like kind of teaching lessons and like nothing in
the studio, Like I like, all of a sudden, I
went from for a long time, I was like a
hired gun session drummer and like doing a lot of gigs,
like a lot of live gigging. Joined this band, really
focused on that for a couple of years, and then
when I left that, I wasn't like I just immediately
(16:43):
jumped back into like all the live gigging. I was
in a different city now, and I was just like
I was at this kind of like crossroads section, but
I didn't know where I wanted to go. It was
less of a crossroads and more of like dropped in
like the center of a city. And I did a
project where somebody hired me to make a karaoke backing
track for a song, and it was by far the
(17:06):
the least efficient thing I've ever done. I think I
got paid like a hundred bucks to reproduce this song
and it took me like twenty hours.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It was.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
It was comically comically inefficient, and I sucked at it
and I didn't enjoy it, but I said, yes, I
was gonna do it, so I just I wanted to
do it, wanted to try it see if this was
for me. Spoiler alert, it was not for me. But
in that case, like yeah, I had to like have
a references. I was always again trying to make it
as similar as possible. But other than those two kind
(17:37):
of you know, specific situations where I was actively undergoing
the challenge of trying to make it as I curate
to the original as possible. Usually I just dropped the
rough mix into my mixed template and just like I
have it at the top of the session and muted.
This is something that I a little thing I got
from Andrew Mary years ago, where it just I have
two blank tracks at the top, and I think one
(17:58):
is labeled ref and the other one is labeled CB mix.
So it's just like if there's a reference track, usually
the rough mix, I have it in there, so and
it's muted at all times, and then if I want
to just like quick a be it, I can just
solo that track, and then when I on solo, it'll
mute it again, so it'll just like I can just
kind of check it that way, and then like the
CB mixed track underneath it is they're like, oh, I
(18:21):
really loved what you did for the vocal delay in
mix three or whatever. Then I can drop my mix
in there too, so I can also like listen back
and compare it.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
To my own one. That's usually it.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I think when I do listen to references, I usually
just pull it up on Spotify. I very rarely will
actually like buy it and like put into the session
because I usually I don't want to get too in
the weeds with it because I know they're different songs,
Like they're they're different songs, they have their own unique characters,
so like I want to try to get the vibe
of what I'm listening for and not be tempted to
(18:55):
literally go back and forth A B A B A
B A B until.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I'm yeah, I like that.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
And also I think there's a time where you do
want to do more of that, and there's a time
where you want to do less of it. And I
think at the very beginning, when you're learning about like
compression and what like a full mix sounds like, I
think it is helpful to listen to references more. I'm
like thinking back because like at the beginning of my journey,
I don't know if I should admit this, but I
made a parody song of Coldplay Paradise, and the parody
(19:25):
was that they're just ripping off Radiohead. So it was
like Parasites. And it was like, you two, like they're
ripping off YouTube and Radiohead, So let me make a
song called Parasites. Yeah, maybe I'll send you with a private.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
First, a couple of weeks ago you teased us with
the Wig Company commercial and you and you refuse to
play that. Now you're talking about a parody song, Okay,
and then I'll send it to you. I'll make sure
that I send it to everybody else expected at the
next email.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Blast guys, check out this wig company. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I'm in the market.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I'm in the market. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
They make excellent wigs. Or is religious Jews like to
call them shadeles.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
You can look it up. Google it.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
In terms of yeah, so this, I made this parody
song of Paradise called Parasites, and I thought I did
such a good job because I like really like I
did all like the parts. I did the synthse I
did the drums, I did the bass, I did the vocal,
and then I listened to like when I was all
done and after I had been released or whatever, I
went onto YouTube and listened to the original one. I
was like, oh, this is so much this is a
way better mix. Like this is such a good mix.
(20:30):
It's probably like Michael Brower or something, and like kicked ass,
and like oh, like that's what like well compressed drums
sound like that's what like a bit like a base
should sound like, just like like having recreated something without
referencing It was like a big lesson for me of
like I actually don't know everything, and like I don't
have all this shit together, and so like I think
there's a time to listen and just understand what all
(20:51):
that stuff really should sound like. But then once you
understand it and you have like a sound, and this
could be even your own sound, you don't necessarily need
to go too strict with references because at this point
I never really sometimes but I rarely ever like metric
A B because I just I'll just do my mix
because I know it's going to sound professional, it's gonna
sound like me, and if there's a reference, I'll it's
(21:11):
usually something like verbi guitar or an intimate vocal or
like a big bass or something, and it's not something
that I'm trying to like really mimic mimic very specifically
the way another song has done it, unless the artist
specifically says like can we get a kick drum like this?
You know that's like a very specific example or snare
like this. But yeah, and in the end, the song
has to be unique, and I think it's more unique
(21:32):
again once you've gone past that first stage of like, Okay,
now I know what compressed drum should sound like to
make something that is unique sounding and social.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Now I'm going to go against myself and actually say
maybe I should do something like that. For this particular,
the rebix that I'm doing, because, like like I said earlier,
how it I'm not sure how it's going to be released.
I'm not sure if it's going to be like part
of a deluxe thing or like on its own, but
either way, it's going to be in the same kind
of like you know, the same collection as the rest
of the album. So maybe it would be beneficial for
(22:01):
me to do it just from a thirty thousand foot
like mastering mastering level, yeah, mastering level and gets to
be like ooh, like I need to cut two point
four to three k by Happy dB, like not in
that sense, but just like, oh, like I can tell
like this is like significantly brighter, or like, oh the
(22:22):
drums sound really thin on mine because they're so bright,
or to everything's too scooped, you know, And just not
that I need to try to mash it, but just
as context and some like maybe like brainstorming for like
what I could try to see if it if it
feels better.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah, that sounds cool. It sounds like a good plan.
Like the broad Strokes metric ab style get in there.
It's like almost like when you're comparing a master to
a mix I'm like, oh, cool, the master did this,
the mix did this? Like I like this better in
the mix, Like this better than the master?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Cool? Yeah, well maybe let's split the difference, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, I'm interested. I'm excited to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Cool.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
I want to hear the original and the fit version,
Carl So, and then when you do that, I'll send
you I'll release the wig.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Can I remix that release the wigs? Oh?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
God, no, whoever the person who hired me is definitely
will definitely not give me permission to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Actually, she contacted me recently about another project and she said,
I not my best work.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Is what she said to me. That's great, good stuff.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Anyways, I think I have to run, so I think
we should probably wrap this episode up. But any last
thoughts before we close this out.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
My only last thought is I am excited to get
off this call. Not because I want to get off
this call, but because I've got twenty minutes till I
have another call. So I want to pull up the
session and just like do some a being I'm excited.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Hell yeah, I love that you're excited. That's what's all about.
When you're fired up. You forgot about how tired you
are when we started this call to podcasts.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Thanks for reminding me. Ben.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
No, Now, look how revved up you are. You're pumped. Yeah,
I'm the coach now.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Thanks coach, Thanks coach.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
You got this, Carl, You got this, Carl, look at
you all revved up. You know you're in the zone.
You did your warm up.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yes, let's roll, rock and roll spir long time.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Okay, So go go ahead, you know, recite some more
led Zeppelin four lyrics and have a lovely day.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Ben. I will see you next week, all right, Bye Ben.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Bye Carl. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much
as we did. If anything here resonated with you, please
share this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Bonner.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
First, a couple of weeks ago, you teased us with
the Wig Company commercial and you refuse to play that.
Now you're talking about a parody song, Okay, and then
I'll send it to you. I'll make sure that I
send it to everybody else expected at the next email blast.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Guys, check out this Wig Company. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I'm in the market.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm in the market.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to Secret Sonics,
Honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to help you
build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 5 (00:44):
Let's get started. Hi, Ben, Hi Carl. It's been a
long time, has it. Yeah, it's been a long.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Time since we recorded the last episode about three minutes ago.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Well, I know, it's been a long time since I've
rock and rolled, Dan. Now been a long time since
hit the Stroll was like a little Zeppelin for you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I was just trying to think of, like, how long
can I be intentionally awkwardly silent and just see how
far you take that?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Just see how like if you go like.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I get I get to the guitar solo.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Okay, I was one.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I'm like, I was hoping I just let it go
and then uh sit here awkwardly and watch you go
through the entirety of rock and roll and then also
start going into battle of evermore just because you didn't
know you just you couldn't stop. I was hoping you
just could get on this train and just would not.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
When it comes to Zeppelin, there's a chance I couldn't stop.
So that's a fair point.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So today's topic, this is something that I was dealing
with last night and actually earlier this morning as well,
when I was listening back to a track that I'm
working on. You know, we talked about the portfolio a
couple of weeks ago, and something that I feel like
we can talk about quite a bit our reference fixes.
But I wanted to talk about the creative decision behind
(02:05):
when to follow a reference mix and when not to
follow a reference mix, or specifically what we think of
when we're going through and saying, Okay, I actually like X,
Y and Z about this reference and I think that
can apply.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
But A B and C.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I want it to be different than that. I intentionally
want to kind of differentiate it from there.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
So when you're saying, I just want to like clarify
because when you talk about reference mixes, you could be
talking about the artist mix or the producer mix, or
you could be talking about a reference of like led
Zeppelin four.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
So I think it applies to both.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I was initially thinking when I first brought this up,
I was thinking about, oh, comparing it to you know,
a released song, you know, I have an artist that
the artist likes or that I like. But then also
I wasn't even thinking about this. But yesterday I was
working with an artist client, the mixing client of mine,
and we were having the kind of conversation about the
rough mix. So I think it actually applies to both. Yeah,
(02:58):
So I feel like for me, it's always a tricky
judgment call that doesn't always have a very clean answer,
and it's a lot of trial and narrative decide like
what kind of inspiration I want to take from the
reference versus saying no, like this is not necessarily objectively
better or worse, but just maybe this is something that
(03:19):
is going to help this be its own identity. Or
the more difficult thing, which probably a lot of us
have happened a lot. It's when the artist has a
love for the rough mix but also has a love
for reference mixes that are nowhere near each other.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right, Yeah, yeah, so a combination.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
That little chuckle you gave made me feel like you've
dealt with that before, Benjamin.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I don't know, actually probably yeah, I think so. I
don't know. I can't think of an example, but I
think so.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It happens to me all the time. Not all the time,
It's happened to me more times than I wish it happened.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
More common would be like this is a rough mix,
and these are the references than anything else. That's most
of the things I'm dealing with. Usually I'm not trying
to like beat a rough mix, and usually I am
like being told like, oh, we like this well.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Also, maybe it is a stylistic thing too, because I
feel like for myself it I guess, let me say this.
It happens to me the most often when it's a
self producing artist, and because I work in a lot
of like Papa Jason styles that tends to be right.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Self producing artists are just like because they have enough
enough skills to be dangerous, right.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So, like the one I was working on last night
or yesterday afternoon with this client, it was, you know,
there's a lot of charm and things in the rough
mix that he liked, but the references that he gave
were not like that. Like he liked the balance of
the rough, but the balance of the rough was very, very,
very different from all the references. And it could be
(04:48):
a very difficult conversation to have if you don't know
how to be patient with them, and it can be
very Yeah, as you know, passionate, emotionally driven creatives, it's
very easy to be like, what the fuck are you
talking about?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
These?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
These are these are two different things. Like it's very
easy to get snippy, very easy to get snippy. And
I think the good thing about me experiencing that so
many times that I've had a lot of practice explaining
it and trying to not be snippy about it. So yeah,
I mean, like that's what happened yesterday. But I think today,
this last night and this morning, I was really thinking
(05:23):
about it from the perspective of, you know, having songs
that we really like and trying to kind of like
not that we're trying to sound like that, but there's
some something in that song that we really do like.
And then when you listen back to you know, your
own finished version, and you're like, oh, this sounds cool
on its own and almost like you're our own version
of demo witis and trying to break free from our
(05:46):
own demo witis. So we get so bad at artists
for having but then we get it too, and trying
to decide, okay, well totally out of all the things
about our song that we like compared to all the
things from the reference that we were trying to encapsulate,
how do we decide what stays and what goes? How
do we decide what do we change versus what do
(06:08):
we keep? Because it is differentiating that song and making
it unique.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
So do you have like a good example maybe of
a reference song and then maybe.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Somethingiso the song that I was working on last night
and this morning. I don't want to say who it's
for yet, but doing a remix for one of my
favorite artists, which is really fun, and the reference that
I had in mind. I've been on a really big
empire of the sun kick who I love love love
love love love love and they have this kind of
(06:40):
like the perfect like bulls eye for the kind of
stuff that I like to work on, because their music
is always like the vocals are always really catchy, the
percussion elements.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Are always really cool.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
There's always so much like texture and nuance, Like it
really is just like spot on for the stuff that
I love, and I was trying to channel that in
this remix I was doing for other artist, and I
got it to the point where I'm like, this feels great,
Like it definitely feels like me. It doesn't sound like
an Empire of the Sound song, but you know, I
was exploring a lot of the kind of like bit
(07:12):
crushed drum sample sounds. I was really trying to push
myself to be way more minimalist on this with it.
I tend to be a bit of a maximalist, and
the end result still feels pretty wall of sound because
I's just like this is how I am and where
my ears take me. I was taking influence from the
simplicity of the arrangement from the other artists applying it
(07:33):
to this remix. But then when I go and I
listen back, and I realize my mix is so bright
and there's so much. There's so many cool things, there's
so much like a lot of a lot of clarity.
But this is very clear mix. I'm really happy with that.
But listening back to some of the songs that I
originally had as my inspiration, it's a lot brighter than that.
(07:56):
And also I feel like, not just the overall master,
but like my drums in general, like my drums on
my instruments just feel a lot brighter relative to the vocals,
for example. And I don't dislike it, but I'm like,
I'm questioning myself there. And then I go back and
I listen to the original version of the song that
I'm remixing, and the master of that is also fairly dark.
(08:19):
And knowing that when this comes out, I don't know
if it'll end up being on like a deluxe version
or it might be just like a standalone single, but
I don't want it to sound wildly off from the
rest of the collection too. So now I'm in this
like internal struggle of Okay, is it like a total
like a master thing where I just, oh, I could
(08:41):
just you know, tweak the EQ on the master bus
because I just went a little to ham on it.
Or is it something where I go through and I'm like,
oh no, I need to just really tame you know,
instrument groupings and try to get closer to that balance.
But also like thinking about the stuff that I've done before,
my stuff tends to be a little bit bright and fun,
(09:03):
and the vibe of this song that I was going for,
like I was really trying to dig into very playful,
happy music. But the whole like lyrical element of this song,
like the whole thing is about like basically like just
not wanting to be social, and like just I don't
want to go anywhere, I don't want to do anything,
Like I don't want to I don't want to give
away the lyrics, so like I don't want to be
(09:24):
too specific, but it's just like I'm trying to create
this juxtaposition of the happiness of the instrumental and also
like the playfulness of the vocal melodies, but juxtaposing that
to the lyrical content. So also like I don't want
to get too dark, because if I make it too dark,
then it's not gonna have as much of that juxtaposition
(09:47):
that I want to have. So I have all these
different kind of like competing emotional reasons and artistic reasons
behind the choices for something as simple of like, oh I.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Think it's too bright.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, that's kind of the thing I'm kind of struggling
with at the moment, And I wanted to ask you, like,
you know, when you're either given references, whether it's a
rough mix or it's a released song that they're referencing,
what are some of the things that you prioritize for
yourself and how do.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
You, yeah, how do you approach that? I don't know, Well,
it's a great question. I guess I do know, but
maybe no a little bit. I'm just like problem solving
for you. I'm just thinking you should try to like
a pass where you just like get everything darker and
just play it and see if it gives you the
same emotional response you know what I mean as the
one that you did, and like try to like give
yourself another day or something and then listen to both
(10:39):
of them back to back and like get some objectivity.
That's sort of my problem solving hat on. That's not
what you asked for, but that's what I'm giving you. Yeah,
I think I don't know if I would ever get
so into the weeds about like if it's brighter.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I mean, maybe that's not even into the.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Weeds, but it's pretty significant.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yeah, when I'm listening to like something that's a reference,
does this kick drum feel like the kind of kick
drum that is appropriate for this sort of a vibe?
You know, maybe it's specific like to kinds of instruments
and their sounds. Okay, if we're going for like a
surfey sound or like a beach guitar sound, like, what
was that gonna sound like? And so you listen to
a bunch of references that sound beachy, and then you
(11:22):
kind of come up with a guitar tone that is
in that ballpark. But then inevitably it changes, you know
what I mean, Like inevitably you're you're gonna make it
fit the song and fit like what you know how
to do best, so you'll end up getting some sort
of mishmash. I think I heard like Phineas talk about
this in interviews, like I try to do this, and
as I'm attempting to do this, I end up doing this,
which is really just me. It's like halfway there, but
(11:43):
like with my own like you know, biases, and then
it becomes like what I sound like, so I feel
like that's what ends up happening for me a lot
in the production stage of things, you know, that beachy
vibe thing. As an example, this is on still in
progress of like we started off trying to make it
very beachy and like it ended up being very like
(12:04):
you know, but with like the reverberated guitars, which was
a vibe just because it fit the song better than
trying to like do like a fast drummy thing. I
don't know, it's hard to answer that question. So for
that song, I guess the inspiration and what we took
from the reference was this is a production, not a mix,
but the reverberant guitars and the kind of genre that
that echoes. And for a mix, it could be like,
(12:27):
we want it to sound like an R and B song,
so it's gonna have a rounder, fuller low end, and
it's gonna be less clicky. And if it's like a
heavy rock song, then I might let's make this a
bit more compressed, a bit more saturated, a bit more like,
let's make the snare be a little brighter. It really
sort of depends, So I guess I'm listening to those
gishdalt things, and sometimes it's spectral, and sometimes it's just
(12:48):
like a vibe, like there's this one thing in this
song that's like really interesting and unique. Maybe it's like
intimate vocals, and maybe the intimate vocals on my song
is less dry and it's more reverberant, but it's still
like the dominant thing that's that's drawing you in. It
kind of can go in any direction. I don't really
have like a hard to like answer this question because
(13:11):
I feel like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
I think that's kind of the maybe the reason for
the question, and everybody listening and yourself and myself probably
all agreed, like yeah, there is no one priority list
of like how to interpret our reference backs, like yes.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
But we all do it. We all have.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
We all interpret reference bixes, whether we're doing it intentionally
or we're just comparing it to other stuff as a
listener that we've enjoyed and that's influenced our tastes and
our preferences. So either way, like whether we have a
explainable framework that we go through or it's just it
is just like a gut feeling, it's still something that
(13:49):
we interpret and take action on. So That's that's why
I think, you know, I don't necessarily have an answer
for like the kind of questions I'm even asking you.
I think it's more like I want to bring to
light the fact that this is something that we all
do instinctively, no matter what. And I feel like the
more that we try to articulate what we've noticed about
(14:10):
ourselves and what we notice about our choices, I think
that is always really valuable information for ourselves, but also
maybe helps us to get closer to the goal suitor.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, because we're conscious of it.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
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and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording. I appreciate what you bring to the table,
let alone pay their rates. You want to get paid,
(14:43):
and YouTube university is full of people telling you that
their way is the right way, and it doesn't help
you apply things to your unique struggles personality and ideal clients,
So I've been building studio land to fill those gaps.
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(15:03):
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Speaker 4 (15:10):
And I'm curious if you use one of these reference
mix plugins like I forgot what's called the one from
plug an alliance like metric ab or something. Are you
interested in those things? Like do you do them? And
if so, does it help.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
You done it?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
There was one time I'm really sad this song never
came out, but I clent I was working with for
years and years and years and years. We did sort
of like a kind of just like a fun challenge
for ourselves where we try to recreate Terrible Lie by
Lennich Nails, like from their first record. I love that song,
but we were trying to like see how close to
(15:44):
the original we could get it. And because of that
I was actually using I think I maybe got a
trial of the metric Ab or I did something I
might have been either a plug in or I might
have just been like dropping it in my session, but
I was trying to be more consciously like it because
that was the challenge of it. It was like how
close can we make this?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, And that's a great challenge to do. By the way,
there was so much.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
One project I did.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
This is God, this is probably nine years ago now
I got hired to do. This is when I was
still I think this is when I just left Cheerleader.
I hadn't quite gotten into like the full production swing
of things.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Did.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
It was like I was in touring band for a while,
and like I just left the band and I was
just like kind of teaching lessons and like nothing in
the studio, Like I like, all of a sudden, I
went from for a long time, I was like a
hired gun session drummer and like doing a lot of gigs,
like a lot of live gigging. Joined this band, really
focused on that for a couple of years, and then
when I left that, I wasn't like I just immediately
(16:43):
jumped back into like all the live gigging. I was
in a different city now, and I was just like
I was at this kind of like crossroads section, but
I didn't know where I wanted to go. It was
less of a crossroads and more of like dropped in
like the center of a city. And I did a
project where somebody hired me to make a karaoke backing
track for a song, and it was by far the
(17:06):
the least efficient thing I've ever done. I think I
got paid like a hundred bucks to reproduce this song
and it took me like twenty hours.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It was.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
It was comically comically inefficient, and I sucked at it
and I didn't enjoy it, but I said, yes, I
was gonna do it, so I just I wanted to
do it, wanted to try it see if this was
for me. Spoiler alert, it was not for me. But
in that case, like yeah, I had to like have
a references. I was always again trying to make it
as similar as possible. But other than those two kind
(17:37):
of you know, specific situations where I was actively undergoing
the challenge of trying to make it as I curate
to the original as possible. Usually I just dropped the
rough mix into my mixed template and just like I
have it at the top of the session and muted.
This is something that I a little thing I got
from Andrew Mary years ago, where it just I have
two blank tracks at the top, and I think one
(17:58):
is labeled ref and the other one is labeled CB mix.
So it's just like if there's a reference track, usually
the rough mix, I have it in there, so and
it's muted at all times, and then if I want
to just like quick a be it, I can just
solo that track, and then when I on solo, it'll
mute it again, so it'll just like I can just
kind of check it that way, and then like the
CB mixed track underneath it is they're like, oh, I
(18:21):
really loved what you did for the vocal delay in
mix three or whatever. Then I can drop my mix
in there too, so I can also like listen back
and compare it.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
To my own one. That's usually it.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I think when I do listen to references, I usually
just pull it up on Spotify. I very rarely will
actually like buy it and like put into the session
because I usually I don't want to get too in
the weeds with it because I know they're different songs,
Like they're they're different songs, they have their own unique characters,
so like I want to try to get the vibe
of what I'm listening for and not be tempted to
(18:55):
literally go back and forth A B A B A
B A B until.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I'm yeah, I like that.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
And also I think there's a time where you do
want to do more of that, and there's a time
where you want to do less of it. And I
think at the very beginning, when you're learning about like
compression and what like a full mix sounds like, I
think it is helpful to listen to references more. I'm
like thinking back because like at the beginning of my journey,
I don't know if I should admit this, but I
made a parody song of Coldplay Paradise, and the parody
(19:25):
was that they're just ripping off Radiohead. So it was
like Parasites. And it was like, you two, like they're
ripping off YouTube and Radiohead, So let me make a
song called Parasites. Yeah, maybe I'll send you with a private.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
First, a couple of weeks ago you teased us with
the Wig Company commercial and you and you refuse to
play that. Now you're talking about a parody song, Okay,
and then I'll send it to you. I'll make sure
that I send it to everybody else expected at the
next email.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Blast guys, check out this wig company. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I'm in the market.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I'm in the market. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
They make excellent wigs. Or is religious Jews like to
call them shadeles.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
You can look it up. Google it.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
In terms of yeah, so this, I made this parody
song of Paradise called Parasites, and I thought I did
such a good job because I like really like I
did all like the parts. I did the synthse I
did the drums, I did the bass, I did the vocal,
and then I listened to like when I was all
done and after I had been released or whatever, I
went onto YouTube and listened to the original one. I
was like, oh, this is so much this is a
way better mix. Like this is such a good mix.
(20:30):
It's probably like Michael Brower or something, and like kicked ass,
and like oh, like that's what like well compressed drums
sound like that's what like a bit like a base
should sound like, just like like having recreated something without
referencing It was like a big lesson for me of
like I actually don't know everything, and like I don't
have all this shit together, and so like I think
there's a time to listen and just understand what all
(20:51):
that stuff really should sound like. But then once you
understand it and you have like a sound, and this
could be even your own sound, you don't necessarily need
to go too strict with references because at this point
I never really sometimes but I rarely ever like metric
A B because I just I'll just do my mix
because I know it's going to sound professional, it's gonna
sound like me, and if there's a reference, I'll it's
(21:11):
usually something like verbi guitar or an intimate vocal or
like a big bass or something, and it's not something
that I'm trying to like really mimic mimic very specifically
the way another song has done it, unless the artist
specifically says like can we get a kick drum like this?
You know that's like a very specific example or snare
like this. But yeah, and in the end, the song
has to be unique, and I think it's more unique
(21:32):
again once you've gone past that first stage of like, Okay,
now I know what compressed drum should sound like to
make something that is unique sounding and social.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Now I'm going to go against myself and actually say
maybe I should do something like that. For this particular,
the rebix that I'm doing, because, like like I said earlier,
how it I'm not sure how it's going to be released.
I'm not sure if it's going to be like part
of a deluxe thing or like on its own, but
either way, it's going to be in the same kind
of like you know, the same collection as the rest
of the album. So maybe it would be beneficial for
(22:01):
me to do it just from a thirty thousand foot
like mastering mastering level, yeah, mastering level and gets to
be like ooh, like I need to cut two point
four to three k by Happy dB, like not in
that sense, but just like, oh, like I can tell
like this is like significantly brighter, or like, oh the
(22:22):
drums sound really thin on mine because they're so bright,
or to everything's too scooped, you know, And just not
that I need to try to mash it, but just
as context and some like maybe like brainstorming for like
what I could try to see if it if it
feels better.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah, that sounds cool. It sounds like a good plan.
Like the broad Strokes metric ab style get in there.
It's like almost like when you're comparing a master to
a mix I'm like, oh, cool, the master did this,
the mix did this? Like I like this better in
the mix, Like this better than the master?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Cool? Yeah, well maybe let's split the difference, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, I'm interested. I'm excited to do it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Cool.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
I want to hear the original and the fit version,
Carl So, and then when you do that, I'll send
you I'll release the wig.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Can I remix that release the wigs? Oh?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
God, no, whoever the person who hired me is definitely
will definitely not give me permission to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Actually, she contacted me recently about another project and she said,
I not my best work.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Is what she said to me. That's great, good stuff.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Anyways, I think I have to run, so I think
we should probably wrap this episode up. But any last
thoughts before we close this out.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
My only last thought is I am excited to get
off this call. Not because I want to get off
this call, but because I've got twenty minutes till I
have another call. So I want to pull up the
session and just like do some a being I'm excited.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Hell yeah, I love that you're excited. That's what's all about.
When you're fired up. You forgot about how tired you
are when we started this call to podcasts.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Thanks for reminding me. Ben.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
No, Now, look how revved up you are. You're pumped. Yeah,
I'm the coach now.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Thanks coach, Thanks coach.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
You got this, Carl, You got this, Carl, look at
you all revved up. You know you're in the zone.
You did your warm up.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yes, let's roll, rock and roll spir long time.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Okay, So go go ahead, you know, recite some more
led Zeppelin four lyrics and have a lovely day.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Ben. I will see you next week, all right, Bye Ben.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Bye Carl. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much
as we did. If anything here resonated with you, please
share this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Bonner.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
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