May 13, 2025 • 25 mins
We didn’t mean to go this deep—but here we are.
This week, we cracked open the bass rabbit hole and just kept falling. What started as a casual chat about tracking techniques quickly turned into a full-on audio archaeology dig. Fingerstyle vs. pick. Flatwounds vs. roundwounds. Phase issues. Amp sims. DI regrets. When to tune your bass like it’s a vocal. And why the right bass might be a $300 violin-shaped Epiphone that makes your P-Bass sound like a string bean.
This is Part 1. Next week, we’ll take all this nerdy goodness and show you how it interacts with everything else in the mix—drums, vocals, space, sub, punch, width, grit.
Discover:
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
This week, we cracked open the bass rabbit hole and just kept falling. What started as a casual chat about tracking techniques quickly turned into a full-on audio archaeology dig. Fingerstyle vs. pick. Flatwounds vs. roundwounds. Phase issues. Amp sims. DI regrets. When to tune your bass like it’s a vocal. And why the right bass might be a $300 violin-shaped Epiphone that makes your P-Bass sound like a string bean.
This is Part 1. Next week, we’ll take all this nerdy goodness and show you how it interacts with everything else in the mix—drums, vocals, space, sub, punch, width, grit.
Discover:
- Why we sometimes tune bass like it’s a vocal
- The $300 Epiphone that destroyed a Fender P-Bass in a shootout
- How adding chorus to bass can actually make it sound tighter
- The reason your 808s keep disappearing—and how to fix it
- Fingerstyle, pick, thumb, palm mute: how your hand technique makes the biggest difference
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If I remember correctly, when he was touring with Lenny Nails,
I think he was playing with fingers and no pick,
which I don't know how that worked. That's crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
When you hire Pino, you just like you take what
Pino gives you.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you're not going to be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to Secret Sonics,
honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to help you
build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Let's get started, Hey Ben, Oh wait no no, no,
no no no no no no no no no.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hi Ben, Hi Carl.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I can't believe I messed up with the intro. We're
off to a terrible start.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Terrible, but yeah, I'm gonna lots of reasons.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Oh yeah, lots of reasons.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's been a it's been a rough it's been a
rough mo ring. But let's go straight into it. Because
I've been thinking a lot about our episode from last
week and talking about all of the different ways that
we approach drum production, and it made me realize that
we probably have a lot of unique approaches to bass
(01:20):
as well, because you know, I'm a drummer and I
think about drums in a different way than a bass
player does. So it's no surprise that you know, we
had different thoughts and approaches, you know, not even considering
the fact that we do very different styles of music.
But you're a bassist and I'm a drummer, so I
feel like therefore we are definitely going to think about
bass in a different way. And yes, I am pretending
(01:41):
that this was my idea, even though you texted me
about five minutes ago with this idea and I was like, damn,
that's a good idea.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
But don't give away our secrets, Carl.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
But I think my cold broduce kicking in and I'm
just like, let's go IV. And also if I, if I,
if I tee up the episode topic, then I can
pass it to you and have you actually start because
you're at the bass nerd and I want to hear
all of your thoughts first.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Okay, very simple for me. The sound of the bass
is the sound of the bass. Meaning you have to
choose the right instrument for the bass part. So there's
a reason why lots of bass players have a few
different basses that they'll go to for different kinds of stuff.
And yeah, you know, I gravitate towards less bright basses,
(02:28):
so I'm less of a jazz bass guy, to be
honest with you. Don't really like it. Love a p bass,
love a music man, and I love like a hollow body,
you know, short scale kind of bass, and that's sort
of what I use. And these days I'm mostly using
the short scale, semi hollow body bass. This is a
it's like a cheap violin base. It's the epiphone viola basse,
(02:51):
but it sounds so fat and for me, it's all
about how I track it, and I pretty much just
use I think there's something weird with the phase and
the bass. I've talked about this before, but like when
I use both pickups, it just kind of makes it
sound less basy and less full. So I actually just
use the front pickup and the tone knob. I might
dial it back or I might have it all the
way open, depending on what I'm going for. So the
(03:13):
secret to the base tone is the type of base,
was using the kind of pickup it has, the kind
of strings it has, are using flat wounds or using
round wounds? And how you you know, do you use
a pick are using your fingers? Are you slapping? Are
you thumb mute? Are you palm muting? These are the
things that I think about when I'm looking for bass
tone pretty much more than anything else. And then I
(03:37):
just like plug it straight in and record. I don't
do any fancy micing of amps or anything because I
don't really don't find like I need it. We'll get
more into that with like the mixing side of things.
I have a weird interface. I have this er Heritage
Audio I seventy three Pro Edge, which I sort of
regret buying, but the preamps are very nice and it
(03:57):
actually sounds amazing on bass, so it's got it's like
a seventy three style pre amp. I know people are
more of like ap into APIs, but I really like
the way this sounds with my epiphone. Bass sounds fat
and gives me what I need. So that's sort of
what I'm usually doing. I'm usually using flat wounds short
scale bass into a seventy three style pre with my
(04:18):
fingers and doing you know, a combination of different placements
on the bass. I can't stress enough like bass player,
like guitarists, you know, like they'll buy lots of pedal boards,
you know, lots of amps, like all kinds of stuff
like that. Bass players just like, choose the right bass
for the song and the sound that you're looking for
and play it appropriately. How how hard are you digging
in all that kind of stuff. That's that's really that's
(04:41):
where the sauce is. That's how the magic happens. So
that's my approach to bass. Choose the right bass, get
the right sound with the bass, and uh and go
di I and you'll be golden. So that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Are you more of a finger player or a pick player?
Like do you do you like, do you feel yourself
like going more towards one together?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
One hundred percent? Yeah, I mean not one hundred percent, right,
like ninety eight percent finger style player, two percent pick player.
I actually just a song just came out that I mixed,
I played pick on. I produced and mixed, I played
pick on, And that's like very much the exception to
the rule, Like I will do it if it serves
a song, and it makes sense. But I'm very much,
way more comfortable with my fingers and I actually play
(05:23):
electric guitar usually with my fingers too, because I just
got used to the dire straight style, you know, like
I just I'm just used to that. So it gives
you a different kind of level of control over the instrument.
And you know, I'll use pick on guitar if it's appropriate,
and definitely, you know, certain kinds of strummings, especially with
like acoustic guitar, and it could happen on electric, you know,
but we'll get into an electric episode at some point,
(05:45):
I think. But yeah, yeah, I definitely lean much heavier
towards fingerstyle, also slap, and I also palmute and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Okay, So if you're a very observant listener, you might
realize my voice sounds a little bit different right now,
and that's because we started this recording and then Riverside,
I had my laptop mic on and not my sm seven.
So if DX revive the awesome plucking you talked about
a couple of weeks ago, if that actually does its
(06:14):
job and works well, then you might not even notice it.
So we'll see so anyway, the reason that I was
asking you about the pick and why I was so
interested in your answer is I remember this was I
think last last year, might have been twenty twenty three,
I think. But a good buddy of mine, Mitch Beer.
(06:35):
He's a bass player's phenomenal bass player known him for god,
I've probably been playing together on and off for like
fifteen years, maybe even longer at this point, but he
has been almost exclusively just a finger player, just like
you're right. I don't think he ever played pick by
choice up until very recently. But then he got a
(06:59):
call from a producer friend to play bass on this
this track for lil uzi Vert, and it was lil
Uzi Vert's weird reimagining of Chop Suey by System of
a Down. It's weird, but it's like imagine, if you know,
(07:22):
little Looseyvert, like weird auto tune, almost like experimental rap,
but over a real I don't know, reimagined cover of
Chop Suey, but like on his main album that went
that that debut at number one. It's weird, but Mitch
(07:43):
got asked to play bass on it, and he I
remember the story correctly when he was telling me this,
he had like three days to learn how to play
with the pick, basically because even though it's something that
even though you know, he's been playing bass for like
his whole life, it's just like a different set of fossil,
and it's it's like for me as a drummer.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Like changes your feel.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
It changes your feel, totally changes the feel.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
And I as a drummer, like I play masch script
and I've always played match script, and if I try
to play traditional grip, it does like my right hand
might be doing fine, just like his left hand's doing
fine on the neck of the base, but like I
have no idea what the hell I'm doing with with
traditional grip. So he ended up basically frantically calling his
(08:27):
buddy Liam, who's the he's the bass player in Diligero
Escape Plan, and was like, teach me how to play
with the pick.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
So he spent those couple.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Of days just like crash course, like learning how to
play with the bass because he did not want to
fuck up this gig because it was you know, by
by far, like probably the biggest artist that he'd ever
been in the studio with, and it ended up being
like you know, his first number one and all these things,
even though it was like as much of an exception
to his normal technique as humanly possible. So it's something
(08:59):
where you know, I it's so interesting that you were saying,
you know, like choosing the right base is so important,
but like even choosing the right technique and all the
different ways that you can play with your fingers, you know,
whether you play even like playing with your thumb versus
your pointer finger.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You know, it's such a huge difference totally.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
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let alone pay their rates. You want to get paid,
(09:39):
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Speaker 2 (10:05):
And thumb is something I've brought into my playing a
lot more in the last like six years.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Let's say, it's something that I've I've always found so
fascinating because you don't think, like, if you don't play bass,
you don't realize how big of a difference that really makes.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, and then you got guys like Pino Palladino, right,
and he's like playing bass with like his thumb and
his index finger kind of like you would maybe play
fingerstyle on a guitar. And that's how he's kind of
gets those slinky R and B kind of you know,
bass feel that he does.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And I think he was even playing if I remember correctly,
when he was touring with Lennon Nails, I think he
was playing with fingers and no pick, which I don't know.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
How that worked. That's crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
When you hire Pino, you just like you take what
Pino gives you.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you're not going to be
disappointed absolutely, But yeah, So okay, so when you were
saying that you don't like any many ams or anything,
you're just going direct in Here's I think this is
going to be the part where I feel like you
and I definitely start to like diverge in our approaches.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So I haven't I haven't asked you about your recording base.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Well, I'm not even gonna talk about recording base because
I don't. I don't usually track, you know, Okay, but
I'm doing production like usually if there's a bass player playing,
I'm not engineering it. I'm in like big picture like
arrangement and ideas mode, and I have somebody else handling
the nerdy ins and outs of it.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
So that's why I want to kind of get.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Into more of the post tracking. But like for like
still in the production like the editing and the tuning
and like the manipulation. And I'm curious, like what your
process is for that, because I feel like, here's where
we're going to go in very different directions.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, I don't know if I could really separate that
from mixing, although you know, I guess I'll do a
little bit more fine tuning, and once I'm in the
mixing stage, well, like it's like the bas will be
ninety percent mixed by the time I'm done with what
I'm doing in the box. Afterwards, there I'm compressing, perhaps
equing more often than not using an AMP sim while tracking, No,
(12:12):
not well after I track. Yeah, so I'm very often
using the AMP BG SVT. It's also plug an alliance
the base AMP, and I don't always use it, Like
it doesn't always work, but when it does work, it
works really really well. It has like there's like two
settings that on the at least the version that I have,
there's like normal and bright, And so if I want
(12:33):
something to be really subby and not so heard, I'll
I'll do normal, and if I want something to be
a little bit more plucky and heard, then I'll go bright.
It's kind of like a two trick pony, but they
both sound really really good and could work for different
kinds of genres. I guess I would usually use the
bright version because I usually want to be a little
bit more audible in the mid range. I would say,
like that's like six out of ten times, maybe seven
(12:53):
out of ten times I'm doing that, and then different
kinds of compression, so like I might use like an
optic compressor or like a or VCA style compressor or both.
And yeah, I have some frequency spots that I like
on each base, So like on the short scale base,
I like to like boost around seven hundred herts that
gives it that pluckiness, and on like the music man,
(13:17):
I'll boost like thirteen fifteen hundred herts, which gives it
more like a different kind of pluckiness. Yeah, So I
don't know, it just sort of depends what I'm going for,
you know. Yeah, and I might I might also dip
out some like very high base, low mid frequency like
two fifty three hundred hertz to get something to sound
a little bit less muddy, depending on what I'm going for. Yeah,
(13:39):
And like those are typical things. And then maybe some saturation,
maybe some tape, and it's it's pretty simple, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, I'm kind of surprised you don't play into the
amp sim.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I don't feel like I need to. I'm so used
to recording direct that, like I know what it should
sound like, and feel like I don't know, maybe that's
maybe that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I was gonna say, because I feel like for myself
when I'm doing it, like I need to hear it
through the amp because it the different amps at different
AMP settings, especially with compression, it affects the way that
I play, you know, and it affects how it affects,
especially how hard I dig in versus how much I
intentionally stay back, you know, because like the especially with
what the AMP sims with any kind of saturation or
(14:18):
any kind of like grit, like the decay time of
the notes, and like how aggressive the transient is, Like
sometimes you really really need that, and sometimes you need
to like play way softer than you realize because then
you can have the sustains say a lot more consistent.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
And even yeah, I sort of think of it like
as as like naked as how it is, and then
like the AMP SIM is like an enhancement, you know.
I don't think of it as like how am I
playing it into this app? Like when I when I
track guitars, that's different. I need the app. Like if
I'm tracking guitar part I'm always using an AMP SIM.
So like whether it's like the Wong or the Thhu
(14:56):
or whatever, I need to hear how that's responding to
the guitar. But for bass, it's so often like recorded
direct And I also like when I perform honestly on
stage is like a direct in right, Like I get
a D box and that's it almost always when I'm
when I'm when I'm playing bass live. So that's just
kind of how it got used to doing it maybe,
(15:16):
And so I know what it should sound like and
feel like naked, and then the AMP sim is sort
of like a extra layer of clothing, you know. That's
that's my thought process, and it could be it could
be a flawed process, but that's that's what I think about.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Well, I think for this this is you know where
we we both knew this is where we were going
to start going in opposite directions because like with the
styles of music that you do, that makes total sense,
you know, because you're it's like the bass part is
part is the main part of this or a big
part of the story, and you're choosing the amp sims
to support that versus a lot of the styles of
music that I'm working on, like the more like pop
(15:51):
adjacent like indie pop, all pop kind of stuff. The
it's much more like a sound design function sure than
like it's it's it's like the storytelling aspect of it
is meant to just like kind of stay out of
the way and the support, and it's much more like
creating like the textures and things. So I think that's
why for me, you know, my when I when I
(16:11):
get the dive parts, it's I approach it very differently,
like I usually edit pretty as close tight as I
possibly can, and even with with tuning, like I'll tune
the base every time and get everything like that. A well,
because a lot of the stuff that I'm doing, I'm
also reinforcing it with uh with a synth bass or
(16:32):
at eight or or like a respace or you know,
or something that is giving those really deep, really consistent
bottom end subs that you just don't get in a base.
So because of that, I tend to roll off quite
a bit of the bottom in the electric bass, and
it's not really I'm not making the base play that role,
(16:56):
you know. So I love like this the synth bass
the sub base to play that role. So I can
kind of like figure out, okay, well if that's what
the synth bass is doing, if my if my ATA
ways are handling this, what's all of the the untouched
landscape that we can now play with with the electric bass,
So that could be frequency of wise, that could be
(17:17):
like spatially too. One thing I love doing and I'm
working on a mix today actually that uh that I've
been doing this where in the electric bass it's still
pretty clean, uh the di that he sent me. But
I love love love love, love love love running the
bass through the Corey Wong am sim, but I turned
(17:38):
it into stereo mode. And then before the AM sim,
I use the even Tide quadra vox, which is like
a four it's like a four voice chorus, like a
four voice like stereo chorus, and I put chorus on
the bass, like for for this this sweat artist that
I'm working with all the time, name surname. I played
chorus on the bass almost like almost every song, you know,
(18:00):
obviously not literally every song, but for most of them,
because it's usually paired with something that's like you know,
doubling it, but in like the synth based range. So
I'm able to have it fill up a little bit
more more space because sonically and stylistically it's a lot
more like there's a lot more like interesting textures happening
(18:22):
because Corey the you know, the artist surname not speaking.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Different or Corey Crawford, He's the different.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
It comes from like a photography background, And when I'm
working on his songs, I can hear his photography background
like I can. I can almost sense like the different
elements in the background and in the background, and there's
always going to be the focal point. There's always going
to be something that I that he is like guiding
the eyes to. But when you take a step back
and intentionally intentionally look around, there's so many interesting textures
(18:54):
and things. And that's how I hear his music. And
that's why for his stuff, like I yeah, I'll usually
put it through a chorus and it's just like spreading
it out a little bit, adding a little bit of
like discomfort to the baseline.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Even though he's a.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Ridiculously good bass player and his melodies are so fucking
interesting all the time.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
But it's all because I'm not relying on just that
one track to handle the bass parts. You know, it's
all the things that usually people say don't do to
a bass It's all usually issues out on the subrange.
So if all of the potential side effects of using
(19:35):
chorus on the bass, or using some weird distortion on
the bass, or a reverb on the bass, all of
those things that usually cause problems, I'm not even allowing
those frequencies to be, you know, a part of the
conversation on that instrument. So it allows me to treat
it more like a baritone guitar maybe then in an
(20:00):
electric bass, even though it very much has like the
tote of an electric base, but just doesn't have the
the body and the body like that those subs and
the really low bottom foundational responsibility that the electric bass
would have in other styles of music.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I totally get that. And also like if I'm
adding distortion or something funky to a bass track, I
probably won't change the original base track, but I'll add
a supplemental track which will probably be high passed, you know. Yeah,
So like I don't want to put decapitator on the
subs of the bass all blended in on a mid
rangey sort of thing, So I totally get that. And
(20:39):
also like recording into like the thing that you're doing
for kind of more soundscapey things is totally I would
do that if I'm doing a synth bas also if
I was, which it does happen. I mean, usually I'm
doing real base, but like if I am using whether
it's a VST or whatever, or I have a pedal
board for my for my bass that sometimes I'll use,
(21:00):
like I have an octave pedal or or filter pedal,
and so that if I'm doing that, then it'll go
in on the way in also so then it is
getting played through that. So the typical stuff I work
on is indie folk and pop and rock and so
like that stuff is usually more straight ahead, but if
it's not, then I'll adjust accordingly, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So one thing I really do have to pay a
lot of attention to as well, because I'm blending you know,
an electric base and uh sub base synth base. Obviously
I have to check the phase and make sure that
we're not having any weird facing issues. And I know,
doing the high pass on the electric base usually kind
of stops those problems before they happen, because I'm not
going to notice something drastically cutting out at you know,
(21:43):
thirty hertz or something. But one thing that I've found
that is just from me being in the weeds of
you know, synth bases for so long is I have
to even go through and kind of gain stage each
individual note in like an ato eight or like a subasse,
especially if it's something that is sample based, and it's like, oh,
(22:07):
they the original sample was an A and then they
shifted it to make all the different notes. Sometimes the
perceived volume is different, sometimes the mathematical amplitude is different,
so I have to always be conscious of how loud
did the notes sound relative to each other, and also
how much are each of them pushing the compressors and
(22:31):
how is that interacting with the other layers. And it's
kind of a mind fux sometimes, especially when you have
some ato eights that have a pretty intense transient to it,
like a nice like nice knock to it. But then
that note is what they use to create the whole baseline,
(22:51):
and as they stretch it, like the impact of that
transient is kind of like you know, it's stretched out
or compressed, and it doesn't always hit the same So
you even have differences in the amount of the perceived
like transient in different parts, So I have to really
keep that in mind, which is just a bit of
(23:12):
a mind fuck. But I have a couple go to
techniques that I use to try to make sure that
I'm not just wrangling the individual layers, but also making
sure that they're not overtaking each other from moment to
moment depending on the particular frequencies.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And I know about that issue, although I don't deal
with it a lot, but when I do deal with it,
I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, it's so important, and especially you know in a
lot of the pop adjacent electronic styles of music that
I work on, Like, if the bottom end isn't right,
nothing's right. Obviously, if the vocals are not right, then
nothing's right. But I mean, like the bottom end like
needs to be consistent, it needs to be intentional.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
And that's yea.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
The more that we explore down there sonically, more likely
we're gonna, you know, step into a trap. I don't know,
I don't know, have like an Indiana Jones vision in
my head there. But we have to be very careful
than tread lightly to make sure we don't create.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
More problems than we're fixing.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yes, all right, So we just talked a whole lot
about the things that we do to the basses individually, right,
Like how we shape the tone, how we get the
parts that we want, how we kind of like wrangle
the bass internally.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
But I think it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Would be really good for us to switch gears, and
you know, maybe maybe next episode we dive more into
the mixing side of it, and how do we get
those great sounding basses to play well with the others,
to play well with the drums and the vocals and
the guitar and all the other elements. Because I know
we're gonna even diverge further and further because we're working
(24:52):
on such different stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, so stay tuned for next week's episode, where we'll
get even nerdier and dirtier with the base.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So we'll be back after this commercial break that's going
to last approximately one week.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So I think you have to say goodbye to me though,
even though I'll see you soon.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, Okay, this is the formality of saying goodbye to Ben.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Bye, Ben, Bye, Carl.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did.
If anything here resonated with you, please share this or
your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
At Ben Wallace Music and at.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Carl Bonner Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
If I remember correctly, when he was touring with Lenny Nails,
I think he was playing with fingers and no pick,
which I don't know how that worked. That's crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
When you hire Pino, you just like you take what
Pino gives you.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you're not going to be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to Secret Sonics,
honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to help you
build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Let's get started, Hey Ben, Oh wait no no, no,
no no no no no no no no no.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hi Ben, Hi Carl.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I can't believe I messed up with the intro. We're
off to a terrible start.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Terrible, but yeah, I'm gonna lots of reasons.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Oh yeah, lots of reasons.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's been a it's been a rough it's been a
rough mo ring. But let's go straight into it. Because
I've been thinking a lot about our episode from last
week and talking about all of the different ways that
we approach drum production, and it made me realize that
we probably have a lot of unique approaches to bass
(01:20):
as well, because you know, I'm a drummer and I
think about drums in a different way than a bass
player does. So it's no surprise that you know, we
had different thoughts and approaches, you know, not even considering
the fact that we do very different styles of music.
But you're a bassist and I'm a drummer, so I
feel like therefore we are definitely going to think about
bass in a different way. And yes, I am pretending
(01:41):
that this was my idea, even though you texted me
about five minutes ago with this idea and I was like, damn,
that's a good idea.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
But don't give away our secrets, Carl.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
But I think my cold broduce kicking in and I'm
just like, let's go IV. And also if I, if I,
if I tee up the episode topic, then I can
pass it to you and have you actually start because
you're at the bass nerd and I want to hear
all of your thoughts first.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Okay, very simple for me. The sound of the bass
is the sound of the bass. Meaning you have to
choose the right instrument for the bass part. So there's
a reason why lots of bass players have a few
different basses that they'll go to for different kinds of stuff.
And yeah, you know, I gravitate towards less bright basses,
(02:28):
so I'm less of a jazz bass guy, to be
honest with you. Don't really like it. Love a p bass,
love a music man, and I love like a hollow body,
you know, short scale kind of bass, and that's sort
of what I use. And these days I'm mostly using
the short scale, semi hollow body bass. This is a
it's like a cheap violin base. It's the epiphone viola basse,
(02:51):
but it sounds so fat and for me, it's all
about how I track it, and I pretty much just
use I think there's something weird with the phase and
the bass. I've talked about this before, but like when
I use both pickups, it just kind of makes it
sound less basy and less full. So I actually just
use the front pickup and the tone knob. I might
dial it back or I might have it all the
way open, depending on what I'm going for. So the
(03:13):
secret to the base tone is the type of base,
was using the kind of pickup it has, the kind
of strings it has, are using flat wounds or using
round wounds? And how you you know, do you use
a pick are using your fingers? Are you slapping? Are
you thumb mute? Are you palm muting? These are the
things that I think about when I'm looking for bass
tone pretty much more than anything else. And then I
(03:37):
just like plug it straight in and record. I don't
do any fancy micing of amps or anything because I
don't really don't find like I need it. We'll get
more into that with like the mixing side of things.
I have a weird interface. I have this er Heritage
Audio I seventy three Pro Edge, which I sort of
regret buying, but the preamps are very nice and it
(03:57):
actually sounds amazing on bass, so it's got it's like
a seventy three style pre amp. I know people are
more of like ap into APIs, but I really like
the way this sounds with my epiphone. Bass sounds fat
and gives me what I need. So that's sort of
what I'm usually doing. I'm usually using flat wounds short
scale bass into a seventy three style pre with my
(04:18):
fingers and doing you know, a combination of different placements
on the bass. I can't stress enough like bass player,
like guitarists, you know, like they'll buy lots of pedal boards,
you know, lots of amps, like all kinds of stuff
like that. Bass players just like, choose the right bass
for the song and the sound that you're looking for
and play it appropriately. How how hard are you digging
in all that kind of stuff. That's that's really that's
(04:41):
where the sauce is. That's how the magic happens. So
that's my approach to bass. Choose the right bass, get
the right sound with the bass, and uh and go
di I and you'll be golden. So that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Are you more of a finger player or a pick player?
Like do you do you like, do you feel yourself
like going more towards one together?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
One hundred percent? Yeah, I mean not one hundred percent, right,
like ninety eight percent finger style player, two percent pick player.
I actually just a song just came out that I mixed,
I played pick on. I produced and mixed, I played
pick on, And that's like very much the exception to
the rule, Like I will do it if it serves
a song, and it makes sense. But I'm very much,
way more comfortable with my fingers and I actually play
(05:23):
electric guitar usually with my fingers too, because I just
got used to the dire straight style, you know, like
I just I'm just used to that. So it gives
you a different kind of level of control over the instrument.
And you know, I'll use pick on guitar if it's appropriate,
and definitely, you know, certain kinds of strummings, especially with
like acoustic guitar, and it could happen on electric, you know,
but we'll get into an electric episode at some point,
(05:45):
I think. But yeah, yeah, I definitely lean much heavier
towards fingerstyle, also slap, and I also palmute and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Okay, So if you're a very observant listener, you might
realize my voice sounds a little bit different right now,
and that's because we started this recording and then Riverside,
I had my laptop mic on and not my sm seven.
So if DX revive the awesome plucking you talked about
a couple of weeks ago, if that actually does its
(06:14):
job and works well, then you might not even notice it.
So we'll see so anyway, the reason that I was
asking you about the pick and why I was so
interested in your answer is I remember this was I
think last last year, might have been twenty twenty three,
I think. But a good buddy of mine, Mitch Beer.
(06:35):
He's a bass player's phenomenal bass player known him for god,
I've probably been playing together on and off for like
fifteen years, maybe even longer at this point, but he
has been almost exclusively just a finger player, just like
you're right. I don't think he ever played pick by
choice up until very recently. But then he got a
(06:59):
call from a producer friend to play bass on this
this track for lil uzi Vert, and it was lil
Uzi Vert's weird reimagining of Chop Suey by System of
a Down. It's weird, but it's like imagine, if you know,
(07:22):
little Looseyvert, like weird auto tune, almost like experimental rap,
but over a real I don't know, reimagined cover of
Chop Suey, but like on his main album that went
that that debut at number one. It's weird, but Mitch
(07:43):
got asked to play bass on it, and he I
remember the story correctly when he was telling me this,
he had like three days to learn how to play
with the pick, basically because even though it's something that
even though you know, he's been playing bass for like
his whole life, it's just like a different set of fossil,
and it's it's like for me as a drummer.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Like changes your feel.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
It changes your feel, totally changes the feel.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
And I as a drummer, like I play masch script
and I've always played match script, and if I try
to play traditional grip, it does like my right hand
might be doing fine, just like his left hand's doing
fine on the neck of the base, but like I
have no idea what the hell I'm doing with with
traditional grip. So he ended up basically frantically calling his
(08:27):
buddy Liam, who's the he's the bass player in Diligero
Escape Plan, and was like, teach me how to play
with the pick.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
So he spent those couple.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Of days just like crash course, like learning how to
play with the bass because he did not want to
fuck up this gig because it was you know, by
by far, like probably the biggest artist that he'd ever
been in the studio with, and it ended up being
like you know, his first number one and all these things,
even though it was like as much of an exception
to his normal technique as humanly possible. So it's something
(08:59):
where you know, I it's so interesting that you were saying,
you know, like choosing the right base is so important,
but like even choosing the right technique and all the
different ways that you can play with your fingers, you know,
whether you play even like playing with your thumb versus
your pointer finger.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You know, it's such a huge difference totally.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
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and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording. I appreciate what you bring to the table,
let alone pay their rates. You want to get paid,
(09:39):
and YouTube university is full of people telling you that
their way is the right way, and it doesn't help
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Speaker 2 (10:05):
And thumb is something I've brought into my playing a
lot more in the last like six years.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Let's say, it's something that I've I've always found so
fascinating because you don't think, like, if you don't play bass,
you don't realize how big of a difference that really makes.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, and then you got guys like Pino Palladino, right,
and he's like playing bass with like his thumb and
his index finger kind of like you would maybe play
fingerstyle on a guitar. And that's how he's kind of
gets those slinky R and B kind of you know,
bass feel that he does.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
And I think he was even playing if I remember correctly,
when he was touring with Lennon Nails, I think he
was playing with fingers and no pick, which I don't know.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
How that worked. That's crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
When you hire Pino, you just like you take what
Pino gives you.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you're not going to be
disappointed absolutely, But yeah, So okay, so when you were
saying that you don't like any many ams or anything,
you're just going direct in Here's I think this is
going to be the part where I feel like you
and I definitely start to like diverge in our approaches.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So I haven't I haven't asked you about your recording base.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Well, I'm not even gonna talk about recording base because
I don't. I don't usually track, you know, Okay, but
I'm doing production like usually if there's a bass player playing,
I'm not engineering it. I'm in like big picture like
arrangement and ideas mode, and I have somebody else handling
the nerdy ins and outs of it.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
So that's why I want to kind of get.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Into more of the post tracking. But like for like
still in the production like the editing and the tuning
and like the manipulation. And I'm curious, like what your
process is for that, because I feel like, here's where
we're going to go in very different directions.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, I don't know if I could really separate that
from mixing, although you know, I guess I'll do a
little bit more fine tuning, and once I'm in the
mixing stage, well, like it's like the bas will be
ninety percent mixed by the time I'm done with what
I'm doing in the box. Afterwards, there I'm compressing, perhaps
equing more often than not using an AMP sim while tracking, No,
(12:12):
not well after I track. Yeah, so I'm very often
using the AMP BG SVT. It's also plug an alliance
the base AMP, and I don't always use it, Like
it doesn't always work, but when it does work, it
works really really well. It has like there's like two
settings that on the at least the version that I have,
there's like normal and bright, And so if I want
(12:33):
something to be really subby and not so heard, I'll
I'll do normal, and if I want something to be
a little bit more plucky and heard, then I'll go bright.
It's kind of like a two trick pony, but they
both sound really really good and could work for different
kinds of genres. I guess I would usually use the
bright version because I usually want to be a little
bit more audible in the mid range. I would say,
like that's like six out of ten times, maybe seven
(12:53):
out of ten times I'm doing that, and then different
kinds of compression, so like I might use like an
optic compressor or like a or VCA style compressor or both.
And yeah, I have some frequency spots that I like
on each base, So like on the short scale base,
I like to like boost around seven hundred herts that
gives it that pluckiness, and on like the music man,
(13:17):
I'll boost like thirteen fifteen hundred herts, which gives it
more like a different kind of pluckiness. Yeah, So I
don't know, it just sort of depends what I'm going for,
you know. Yeah, and I might I might also dip
out some like very high base, low mid frequency like
two fifty three hundred hertz to get something to sound
a little bit less muddy, depending on what I'm going for. Yeah,
(13:39):
And like those are typical things. And then maybe some saturation,
maybe some tape, and it's it's pretty simple, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, I'm kind of surprised you don't play into the
amp sim.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I don't feel like I need to. I'm so used
to recording direct that, like I know what it should
sound like, and feel like I don't know, maybe that's
maybe that's what it is.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I was gonna say, because I feel like for myself
when I'm doing it, like I need to hear it
through the amp because it the different amps at different
AMP settings, especially with compression, it affects the way that
I play, you know, and it affects how it affects,
especially how hard I dig in versus how much I
intentionally stay back, you know, because like the especially with
what the AMP sims with any kind of saturation or
(14:18):
any kind of like grit, like the decay time of
the notes, and like how aggressive the transient is, Like
sometimes you really really need that, and sometimes you need
to like play way softer than you realize because then
you can have the sustains say a lot more consistent.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
And even yeah, I sort of think of it like
as as like naked as how it is, and then
like the AMP SIM is like an enhancement, you know.
I don't think of it as like how am I
playing it into this app? Like when I when I
track guitars, that's different. I need the app. Like if
I'm tracking guitar part I'm always using an AMP SIM.
So like whether it's like the Wong or the Thhu
(14:56):
or whatever, I need to hear how that's responding to
the guitar. But for bass, it's so often like recorded
direct And I also like when I perform honestly on
stage is like a direct in right, Like I get
a D box and that's it almost always when I'm
when I'm when I'm playing bass live. So that's just
kind of how it got used to doing it maybe,
(15:16):
And so I know what it should sound like and
feel like naked, and then the AMP sim is sort
of like a extra layer of clothing, you know. That's
that's my thought process, and it could be it could
be a flawed process, but that's that's what I think about.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Well, I think for this this is you know where
we we both knew this is where we were going
to start going in opposite directions because like with the
styles of music that you do, that makes total sense,
you know, because you're it's like the bass part is
part is the main part of this or a big
part of the story, and you're choosing the amp sims
to support that versus a lot of the styles of
music that I'm working on, like the more like pop
(15:51):
adjacent like indie pop, all pop kind of stuff. The
it's much more like a sound design function sure than
like it's it's it's like the storytelling aspect of it
is meant to just like kind of stay out of
the way and the support, and it's much more like
creating like the textures and things. So I think that's
why for me, you know, my when I when I
(16:11):
get the dive parts, it's I approach it very differently,
like I usually edit pretty as close tight as I
possibly can, and even with with tuning, like I'll tune
the base every time and get everything like that. A well,
because a lot of the stuff that I'm doing, I'm
also reinforcing it with uh with a synth bass or
(16:32):
at eight or or like a respace or you know,
or something that is giving those really deep, really consistent
bottom end subs that you just don't get in a base.
So because of that, I tend to roll off quite
a bit of the bottom in the electric bass, and
it's not really I'm not making the base play that role,
(16:56):
you know. So I love like this the synth bass
the sub base to play that role. So I can
kind of like figure out, okay, well if that's what
the synth bass is doing, if my if my ATA
ways are handling this, what's all of the the untouched
landscape that we can now play with with the electric bass,
So that could be frequency of wise, that could be
(17:17):
like spatially too. One thing I love doing and I'm
working on a mix today actually that uh that I've
been doing this where in the electric bass it's still
pretty clean, uh the di that he sent me. But
I love love love love, love love love running the
bass through the Corey Wong am sim, but I turned
(17:38):
it into stereo mode. And then before the AM sim,
I use the even Tide quadra vox, which is like
a four it's like a four voice chorus, like a
four voice like stereo chorus, and I put chorus on
the bass, like for for this this sweat artist that
I'm working with all the time, name surname. I played
chorus on the bass almost like almost every song, you know,
(18:00):
obviously not literally every song, but for most of them,
because it's usually paired with something that's like you know,
doubling it, but in like the synth based range. So
I'm able to have it fill up a little bit
more more space because sonically and stylistically it's a lot
more like there's a lot more like interesting textures happening
(18:22):
because Corey the you know, the artist surname not speaking.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Different or Corey Crawford, He's the different.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
It comes from like a photography background, And when I'm
working on his songs, I can hear his photography background
like I can. I can almost sense like the different
elements in the background and in the background, and there's
always going to be the focal point. There's always going
to be something that I that he is like guiding
the eyes to. But when you take a step back
and intentionally intentionally look around, there's so many interesting textures
(18:54):
and things. And that's how I hear his music. And
that's why for his stuff, like I yeah, I'll usually
put it through a chorus and it's just like spreading
it out a little bit, adding a little bit of
like discomfort to the baseline.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Even though he's a.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Ridiculously good bass player and his melodies are so fucking
interesting all the time.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
But it's all because I'm not relying on just that
one track to handle the bass parts. You know, it's
all the things that usually people say don't do to
a bass It's all usually issues out on the subrange.
So if all of the potential side effects of using
(19:35):
chorus on the bass, or using some weird distortion on
the bass, or a reverb on the bass, all of
those things that usually cause problems, I'm not even allowing
those frequencies to be, you know, a part of the
conversation on that instrument. So it allows me to treat
it more like a baritone guitar maybe then in an
(20:00):
electric bass, even though it very much has like the
tote of an electric base, but just doesn't have the
the body and the body like that those subs and
the really low bottom foundational responsibility that the electric bass
would have in other styles of music.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I totally get that. And also like if I'm
adding distortion or something funky to a bass track, I
probably won't change the original base track, but I'll add
a supplemental track which will probably be high passed, you know. Yeah,
So like I don't want to put decapitator on the
subs of the bass all blended in on a mid
rangey sort of thing, So I totally get that. And
(20:39):
also like recording into like the thing that you're doing
for kind of more soundscapey things is totally I would
do that if I'm doing a synth bas also if
I was, which it does happen. I mean, usually I'm
doing real base, but like if I am using whether
it's a VST or whatever, or I have a pedal
board for my for my bass that sometimes I'll use,
(21:00):
like I have an octave pedal or or filter pedal,
and so that if I'm doing that, then it'll go
in on the way in also so then it is
getting played through that. So the typical stuff I work
on is indie folk and pop and rock and so
like that stuff is usually more straight ahead, but if
it's not, then I'll adjust accordingly, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So one thing I really do have to pay a
lot of attention to as well, because I'm blending you know,
an electric base and uh sub base synth base. Obviously
I have to check the phase and make sure that
we're not having any weird facing issues. And I know,
doing the high pass on the electric base usually kind
of stops those problems before they happen, because I'm not
going to notice something drastically cutting out at you know,
(21:43):
thirty hertz or something. But one thing that I've found
that is just from me being in the weeds of
you know, synth bases for so long is I have
to even go through and kind of gain stage each
individual note in like an ato eight or like a subasse,
especially if it's something that is sample based, and it's like, oh,
(22:07):
they the original sample was an A and then they
shifted it to make all the different notes. Sometimes the
perceived volume is different, sometimes the mathematical amplitude is different,
so I have to always be conscious of how loud
did the notes sound relative to each other, and also
how much are each of them pushing the compressors and
(22:31):
how is that interacting with the other layers. And it's
kind of a mind fux sometimes, especially when you have
some ato eights that have a pretty intense transient to it,
like a nice like nice knock to it. But then
that note is what they use to create the whole baseline,
(22:51):
and as they stretch it, like the impact of that
transient is kind of like you know, it's stretched out
or compressed, and it doesn't always hit the same So
you even have differences in the amount of the perceived
like transient in different parts, So I have to really
keep that in mind, which is just a bit of
(23:12):
a mind fuck. But I have a couple go to
techniques that I use to try to make sure that
I'm not just wrangling the individual layers, but also making
sure that they're not overtaking each other from moment to
moment depending on the particular frequencies.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And I know about that issue, although I don't deal
with it a lot, but when I do deal with it,
I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, it's so important, and especially you know in a
lot of the pop adjacent electronic styles of music that
I work on, Like, if the bottom end isn't right,
nothing's right. Obviously, if the vocals are not right, then
nothing's right. But I mean, like the bottom end like
needs to be consistent, it needs to be intentional.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
And that's yea.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
The more that we explore down there sonically, more likely
we're gonna, you know, step into a trap. I don't know,
I don't know, have like an Indiana Jones vision in
my head there. But we have to be very careful
than tread lightly to make sure we don't create.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
More problems than we're fixing.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yes, all right, So we just talked a whole lot
about the things that we do to the basses individually, right,
Like how we shape the tone, how we get the
parts that we want, how we kind of like wrangle
the bass internally.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
But I think it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Would be really good for us to switch gears, and
you know, maybe maybe next episode we dive more into
the mixing side of it, and how do we get
those great sounding basses to play well with the others,
to play well with the drums and the vocals and
the guitar and all the other elements. Because I know
we're gonna even diverge further and further because we're working
(24:52):
on such different stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, so stay tuned for next week's episode, where we'll
get even nerdier and dirtier with the base.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So we'll be back after this commercial break that's going
to last approximately one week.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So I think you have to say goodbye to me though,
even though I'll see you soon.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, Okay, this is the formality of saying goodbye to Ben.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Bye, Ben, Bye, Carl.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did.
If anything here resonated with you, please share this or
your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
At Ben Wallace Music and at.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Carl Bonner Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
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