May 27, 2025 • 24 mins
Two cranky engineers accidentally reveal why your technically perfect vocals sound emotionally dead
In this episode, Ben and Carl dive into why the "mistakes" you're fixing might be the only thing keeping your vocals human. From pre-production psychology to multi-de-esser philosophy, they challenge everything you think you know about processing vocals.
Discover:
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
In this episode, Ben and Carl dive into why the "mistakes" you're fixing might be the only thing keeping your vocals human. From pre-production psychology to multi-de-esser philosophy, they challenge everything you think you know about processing vocals.
Discover:
- How over-rehearsed bands sabotage their own records (and why pop artists need completely different rules)
- Reading the room and matching your approach to the artist's psychology
- Why perfect tuning kills emotion and when to leave the "mistakes" in
- Why using multiple light processors beats one heavy one (and Carl's controversial multi-de-esser approach)
- How deliberately bad cuts make choruses hit like trucks
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's like whatever the demo itis of like before a demo,
like rehearsal itis. I guess you know they have. That's
the way that they've played it with the band two
bunch of times in rehearsal, they've played it on stage
fifty times, and they go into the studio. And if
you want to make a change, that is going to
be objectively, you know, helping to tell the story better,
helping to communicate the vision more. It's a bit more
(00:23):
of a struggle because they have to consciously try to
do something other than what they've spent all this time.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah doing Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're
listening to Secret Sonics, Honest conversations chock full of tactical
advice help you build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Let's get started. Hi, Ben, Hi Carl.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We are both tired, we are both in cranky moves,
but we are going to fix that today. We're going
to bring each other back up out of the depths
of to bring it back in misery and existential dread.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And I was gonna say more door, but I don't
know if you're a lord of the rings.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I am, it feels like more door these days. Yes,
but we are going to drop right into it because
we are also going to use this episode, this conversation
as our way to cheer each other up because we
need it. And sometimes talking about nerdy shit is what
makes us happy. And I hate to admit that it's
rare for me, but today's one of those days where
(01:31):
I'm excited to talk about nerdy shit. Well it's this
particular nerdy shit is something I do really care about,
and it is vocal processing. I don't know why I'm
talking like a AM radio DJ right now, but anyway,
vocal processing.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We don't want to start with like the vocal recording.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Well that's that's what I was going to say. I
felt like in the previous episodes we started with like
the production phase of it and then kind into mixing.
And for myself, I don't do tracking anymore, like at all.
I hate it, even when I'm playing the instruments. If
I'm playing drums on something like, I refuse to track myself.
I need to go somewhere else and have somebody else
worry about it. And vocals, I just haven't tracked somebody's vocals.
(02:15):
That wasn't like a quick for fun thing with a
friend in years. So I have a lot of thoughts
about like the editing and vocal production stuff. But when
it comes to actual straight up like voice into microphone
other than recording podcasts like this, I don't really do
much these days. So I want to tee it up,
(02:36):
toss it to you, and I want to hear what
your process has been like lately and if that's changed
over the past few months or a few years.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Okay, So I just also want to just like straight
up say I met my neighbor's apartment and recording into
my MacBook pro speakers because of all kinds of like
scheduling issues. So it's like ironic talking about vocals when
like my probably my voice probably sounds worse than ever
on this podcast. What's my approach to processing vocals? Okay,
to go back to the beginning, I mean I have
to touch a little bit on the recording process because
(03:06):
I track vocals for almost everything I'm working on. If
I'm you know, recording and mixing it and I don't
want to get too deep into it, but I try
to get as good a performance as I can. I'm
not one of these guys that gets you know, give
me four takes and I'll just choose the best stuff
and make it work. I really try to get every
single section how I want it, or as close as
the singer can get it to how I want it.
(03:29):
And you know that's you know, you have to read
the room and see what the artist is actually capable
of recording, but based on the limitations of the actual
singer getting it as close as I can. Yeah. And
I'm much more pandic about lead vocals than I'm about harmonies. Harmonies,
I don't mind tuning and doing crazy shit to make
them work. Just give me something that's like close enough
and like rhythmically cool, and I'll make it work. But
(03:52):
lead vocals, I really try to get as good as possible.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, could I stop you for a second, Yeah, I
want to. I do have like a tracking question for you.
Back when I was also doing a lot of vocal tracking,
I knew that there were going to be some artists
that really prefer to do lots and lots of just
like straight through top to bottom performances, or like doing
as few punches as possible. And then there are some
artists that really preferred to like focus on a particular
(04:16):
section and just really really nail that down. So I
know every artist is going to have their different preferences,
But for you, as the engineer and as like the
producer brain in that moment, do you have a process
that you really are more drawn to and why?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I don't think they make a difference to me. I
like them both, And it really depends on what the
artist is more comfortable doing. So you know, if I'm
working with an artist that can really sing, we'll usually
do full takes and then maybe we'll focus on like
a specific thing at the end. And then with a
vocalist who's a little bit newer, a little less experienced,
or just needs a little extra coaching, we'll probably take
(04:55):
a section by section and sometimes we'll start with the
verse and we realize, you know, we got a warm
your voice up, and we'll skip to the chorus and
we'll go back to the verse later. So it really
is I don't know if I have a preference. I mean,
I guess my preference is it's an amazing vocalist that
we could just do a take, right, but that's not typical.
So because I don't know if I prefer doing multiple
full takes versus like individual I guess I prefer individual
(05:17):
sections over multiple full takes if it's more than like
two full takes. You know, if you're Aretha Franklin, you
give me two full takes perfect. Otherwise I'm constantly thinking about, oh,
I like that part, like that part, and I'm trying
to like on the fly, camp things together and choose
the folders, you know, the takes. I really like the
logics comping thing, and so like I'm on the fly
(05:37):
just doing that. So it is a little easier to
do that section by section if the singer's not capable
of doing like full takes. So yeah, that's I don't
really have a preference.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, I think there's also a benefit, you know, depending
on how you break it up. There's also the benefit
of being able to give direction and give notes on
individual sections and not have to like overload them with
don't forget this and in this thing, and then when
you get here, try this, and then when it's like
over the course of a three minute song, like if
there are ideas that you have. I've found that unless
(06:08):
they are ruthther Franklin, who I have not worked with obviously,
you know, unless they're like at a really really crazy
high level, it's almost like too much for them to
really take it all in and apply it without being
stressed out about what they need to change, you know.
And I think that's one of the differences between working
with like a super pro vocalist that's like like session
(06:29):
vocalist sort of level, that they're able to keep those
notes in mind and have it not distract them from
the performance itself, similar to how I think a lot
of really great session musicians, you can give them specific
notes about like the you know, the third verse, and
they can do it from the top and still remember
what's happening in the third verse comms, and it's not
(06:50):
going to mess them up in the moment because there
it's so second nature to them to do the performance
of it that they're not in their heads and they
can only just like you know, focus on that moment
when that moment comes up. And I think with vocalists,
especially because of how important the vocals are in the
songs that you know that you and I work on anyway,
and how exposed they tend to be because of the
(07:12):
either the instrumentation or at least like the prominence that
the vocals have in the arrangement. It comes down to,
I think the confidence that the singer has, not just
in their voice and their performance, but the confidence that
they have in themselves to remember the things that they
want to do differently and not have it bog them
down and you know, not get in their own heads
(07:33):
as they're singing, because they're ye well, as they're singing
verse one, as they're singing chorus one, as they're singing
verse two, because they have this idea about going into
chorus two, and they're so focused on not forgetting that
thing and remembering that little like run that they did,
and then there's all like the mental aspects of it.
All that said, I think that's why for the least
the styles of music that I work on, which are
(07:54):
more in like the pop adjacent side of things, I
think doing it section bisection to work best because we
can really focus on creating as much drama in those
moments as we can without having to try to remember
a million things. But I think that would feel super
awkward and forced if I was doing a bunch of
you know, Americana or you know, a singer songwriter or
(08:16):
stuff that is meant to be more natural, And it
comes down to you do we Is it meant to
feel like an artist in the rumor is it meant
to feel like a hyper realistic like art piece, and
like where on that spectrum is the song? And I
think that for me is what kind of dictates what
vocal production, what vocal treking preference I'm going to have
(08:38):
in that moment.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And I would say also like if it's more of
a pop production, meaning like if it's less of a
pop production, it's more like a folk thing, they're more
likely to have worked it all out in advanced and
practiced it. And like I feel like with pop sessions
are usually in the studio trying to figure out the
best arrangement because.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's a.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Lot of times yeah, yeah, and I'm usually holding all
those ideas in my head while they're tracking.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So yeah, that really goes back to pre production and
like what the pre production process is for the artists
and some styles just have very different pre production systems,
you know, and approaches, you know, not just artists to artists,
but I think even some styles of music kind of
lend themselves more naturally to different.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Approaches to that. Yeah, like band music is much more
like the you know, it's much more like the band
has practiced a lot and gone over it and like
performed it at bars even before they've gotten into the
into the studio to track it. And that's that's much
more likely to be a normal, you know, full length
all the way through and they know exactly which part
what they want to do for every single section. I'm
supposed to pop artist, where usually you've worked out the
(09:42):
whole arrangement for the first time and they haven't been
performing this with the band necessarily, and this is their
first time coming up with what the actual vocal arrangement is.
It's in the recording session itself.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And I know we intended to start talking about like
the vocal like tracking and things, but I think this
is we're kind of going a step before that into
like the philosophy behind and like the preparation that they do,
which makes me think about like the blessing and the
curse that pre production and that you know, live performance
before recording gives you because the people that don't do
(10:12):
that prep and they don't do the lot. You know,
they don't rehearse as a band a bunch of times
and perform live. Like, yeah, they're going to be a
little bit less prepared for the session, but it opens
up the possibilities of experimenting and trying new things and
like they're they're not married to parts. On the flip side,
the people that have prepared a lot, it can be
a danger because sometimes they'll have something so ingrained in
(10:34):
their in their muscle memory and their and their brain
and they're so familiar. It's like whatever the demo itis
of like before a demo, like rehearsal itis. I guess
you know they have. That's the way that they play it.
That's way they've you know, they've played it with the
band two bunch of times in rehearsal, they've played it
on stage fifty times, and they go into the studio
(10:55):
and if you want to make a change, that is
going to be objectively, you know, helping to tell the
story better, helping to communicate the vision more. It's a
bit more of a struggle because they have to consciously
try to do something other than what they've spent all
this time doing.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
It really is a problem. The more you've listened to
one thing, the more you it's hard for you to
hear new things. It's a real, real problem, and I
think it's something we should all be trying to fight.
You know, we shall all be open to new ideas
and trying to get out of our demo witis, whatever
kind of demo witis it is. It's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
One of the things I've noticed over the past twenty
years being in the industry is that audio school usually
leaves most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,
you learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep,
but they probably won't teach you how to stand out
and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording, appreciate what you bring to the table, let
alone pay their rates you want to get paid, and
(11:47):
YouTube university is full of people telling you that their
way is the right way, and it doesn't help you
apply things to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients.
So I've been building studio land to fill those gaps.
We use structured learning. We leave live classes in a
private community of other pros to help you discover how
to turn your technical expertise into a thriving business that
attracts the right clients at the right rates. Try it
(12:10):
out for free the links in the show notes. So
once we have it down, once you have the parts
recorded and we figured out what we want to do,
and we get into the editing stage before I cut
you off to start going more into the you know,
behind the scenes philosophy of this stuff. You were talking
about Melodine and how you really prefer tuning in Melodine.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I do. I don't know if I always prefer that
I'm the one doing it, but yeah, Melodie, I find
I'm just able to get whatever I want out of Melodine.
It's so flexible and I'm able to use all the
different tools and parameters to to really coax a vocal
into where it should be. And that doesn't you have
to also, you know, it's a blessing and a curse
because sometimes you can go too far and you have
to know when to stop. And if like a vocal
(12:52):
feels really good and the emotion is being carried through,
then you shouldn't always necessarily tune it perfect. You should
maybe leave some stuff in so finding the right balance
between like exactly what you want and leaving you know,
the magic of a take in is definitely a balance
I'm trying to find personally. And I would say that,
you know, there was a time in my career where
I was doing a lot more like straight up getting
(13:14):
everything sound as intune as possible. And also, you know, harmonies,
I work less now in tuning than I used to.
I'm definitely leaving more more in there to be imperfect,
because I kind of love that. I think we've gotten
to be a bit too perfect, and I think it's
a problem or it's like, you know, the robots are
doing that anyway, so let's be human. Yeah, But I
am one who sometimes uses like auto tune or metitune
(13:36):
for backing vocals, not really for lead vocals, but to
you know, it's also a budget thing, Like if a
client doesn't have a ton of money, they don't want
to pay me for hours of editing. I could do
one hour of editing and get a really good lead
vocal and you know, kind of just auto tune the harmonies,
which nobody's going to really notice that anyways. So that's
(13:56):
sort of my my editing thing. And you know, sometimes
I will do some manual chops to get like teased
to like hit at the same time. Or there's like
breaths right before a chorus, and there's like if they
have like eight backing vocals, you know, or like there's
like three parts and they're stacked or whatever, and you
have like there's like it's big breaths and like where
(14:18):
the s is fall and stuff like that. So, yeah,
these are all things that we have to pay attention to,
and I'm attle bit pedantic about. So I do some
chopping also, not just tuning, And yeah, that's my approach
generally speaking to to tuning editing vocals. How about you, Carl,
I have more questions.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I'm not done asking you questions yet. I'm not done.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
But you do editing also, I know, but.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I I'll eventually transition, I know, I know. I just
have one less question and then I'll talk about myself
for a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Do you have anything in the editing process that you
are neurotic about? Like, are there any particular things that
you know, even when you want it to be quote
unquote natural or raw or loose, like, there are still
things that you have to fix because you it just
greats at your soul. Good example would be like, you know,
breaths in backing vocals.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Well, you know, a big thing I learned from Philip
Winrowe is to leave breath sin because the kind of
music I usually make is trying to make people not
freak out. And I do think that there's something calming
about hearing breaths and it feels more human. So I
definitely try to leave breath sin. Doesn't mean I don't
lower the gain on the breath or get rid of
the ones that really don't sound good or not in rhythm.
So I do definitely leave breaths in a lot these days,
(15:23):
and I didn't always. Yeah, another thing that's changed over
the years, I've become less perfect, and I think less
perfect is better generally speaking, not always. Something I do
a lot. Also in Meledine is I will change the
formant because sometimes, you know, a singer will hit a
note weird and it might sound too bright or too
dark compared to the rest of it, and then just
(15:44):
like a little bit of a formant shift could really
make it sound like it really should. So that's something
that I'm also listening for. And yeah, I don't actively
listen for it, because I'll hear it if I and
I'll know right away because I'm like very attuned to
this stuff. So yeah, but that's definitely something I would
say happens twice in every song is there'll be like
(16:04):
a slight sporman shift just to make it sound like
the person's voice and not like that weird note that
they hit somehow.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I've got a couple. I think. The one thing that
I'm I'm very i'm very kind of crazy about it's
going to be yes breaths in the backing vocals, but
specifically the breath right before the first note, like right
before the entrance of a backing vocal, so like especially
right before the chorus. If there's an entrance where the
(16:30):
backing vocals come in, like right on the downbeat, then
I want to make sure that in that moment before it,
I'm probably trying to create as much contrast as I
can and making things feel smaller so that the chorus
hits big. So then what I'll make sure that I
do is I got to get rid of any breaths
or you know, entrances in the backing vocal part because
(16:56):
I don't want to show my hands too soon. I
don't want to let the listener know that they're backing
vocals coming in. I want to make sure that when
they come in, it is like a smack in the
face and the surprise. And I think because of that too.
This is something that I picked up from Andrew Maury
years and years and years and years ago. I was
doing a remix for a band that he had produced,
(17:16):
and I remember the base at the beginning of the
chorus was like abruptly cut, like right exactly perfectly on
the grid, and when he played it in solo, it
had a little bit of like a click to it,
like it wasn't a clean cut, and I was like, oh, man,
I can't believe. I can't believe you let that slip
through here. That's kind of sloppy. So I like fixed
(17:38):
it air quotes for those listening to the podcasts, I'm
doing very aggressive air quotes. I fixed it, and all
of a sudden, the chorus didn't feel as good, it
didn't hit as hard, and then I realized that was
there to just add an extra little bit of like
that punch and like using the wrong thing, using like
the click of a bad fade air quotes bad fade
(18:00):
to add a little bit more oof to the downbeat.
So I started doing that to backing vocals as well.
So if there's a chorus especially, you know, I'm thinking
like pop. This is like pop stuff, you know, where
the downbeat is very strongly in unison, like the downbeat
of a chorus. And not only am I going to
mute the any kind of like breaths or any kind
(18:21):
of noise before, because I don't want to give away
that the chorus is coming. I don't want to give
away that the backing vocals are going to enter. But
then I'll I'm happy to just like cut it, you know,
cut the clip right on the downbeat, and then it
just adds that extra little bit of spice right on
that that downbeat.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, that's a really cool, cool hack.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
If this is one of those few times where I
learned from somebody else's quote unquote mistake, and it's become
like such a little hack for making your chorus at harder.
Same thing for bass, same thing for like sense, if
you're using any kind of like analogue sense or guitars,
anything that was recorded not programs and needs to be
like a right one other than drump parts. Trump parts
(19:01):
can get kind of funky if you don't get like
the beginning of the snare or something, but usually it
just like adds this extra bit of excitement to that
downbeat that you can't get from, you know, automating a
volume boost.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Or something that's so interesting. That's a new one for me.
I guess it's like clipping your converters if you're a
mastering engineers. I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, it's weird, but it usually sounds really awful in solo.
But then you put it in the context and you're like, oh, yeah,
that was.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
The right move, and that's the lesson. It's always in
the context, right.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Always, Yeah, And I think because of that, Like that's why,
just because of the context, I'm like you, I love Melodine.
I'm very particular with breadths and ESS's, and I'll still
use more often than not. I end up using melodine
and then autotune after it, with the autotune with a
pretty slow retuned speed, but just to give it kind
of that there's like a texture of autotune that I like.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, autotune has a sound. It has a sound.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, and especially when it's not not super tight, and
it doesn't sound like a Share song like it's it's
sort of like Future or somebody. I don't know why
it shows share I should have picked a slightly more
slightly more relevant recent artists. But yeah, usually like the
combination of those things. But when it comes to es
is this is where I am like maybe the most neurotic.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I know.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
We talked about this on the podcast year probably probably
years ago at this point, But I usually have three
or four different ds ers on a vocal part, all
doing very little, but all doing very like specific things.
And it's the analogy that I like to use for
those of you that are either rolling your eyes or
(20:42):
crying at my blasphemy here of using so many plugins.
But I look at it like I call myself like
a plug in minimalist, even though I use a lot
of plugins on vocals, it's because each plug in is
only doing one small specific thing, you know, Like you
could have one plug in on your vocals and it's
like cla Fox and it's like doing a whole bunch
of shit and makes it sound terrible. Or if I
(21:04):
use multiple compressors that all have different feels and different
amounts of you know what it does. I'm able to
have a lot less unintended consequences to the sound, And
the same thing with the dsers. So I like to
use the analogy of like, I have a big glass
desk over at my mixing studio and the studios up
on the third floor of an old warehouse, and I
(21:25):
could carry that glass top. I mean, it's pretty big.
It's probably like five or six feet wide. I could
have carried that up all those flights of stairs by myself,
and I would have been able to get it up there.
I mean, the downside would have been that I would
be exhausted, and the likelihood of me either denting or
(21:46):
scratching the walls or the table would have been pretty high.
But if I asked two or three of my friends
to help give me a hand to get up up
the stairs, we would have all been doing a lot
less work, We'd all be a lot less high, and
the likelihood of those unintended consequences of bonking up against
the wall, there's gonna be way fewer chances of that happening.
(22:08):
So I found that the minimalism, if we take it
literally and think, oh, we only need one dyes or
one plug in as few plugins as possible. If we
do that, that we're making that one plug in work
way too hard, and there's there's just like there's always
going to be some amount of diminishing returns with the
ds ER or any kind of like multi band anything,
(22:30):
whether it's like or soothe or pro.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And B whatever.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So if I'm able to do that, especially at different
points along the chain, you know, before compressors or after compressors,
or you know wherever, then I'm able to get the
more consistent sound that I want and not have to
pay the price of having the s is either be
too loud or to list by and have it sound
(22:57):
good for eighty percent of the song but then sounds
like pretty off for twenty percent. Now I can get
it to sound great for one hundred percent. But really,
the approach that I have for the yes ors and
the compressors like that kind of applies to how I
approach bixic in general, So we don't have to go
down that rabbit hole. I think what we should do
is maybe end this one for right now. I think
(23:18):
we've been enjoying the two partners lately, and I think
we should end this right now and then we'll get
into a little bit more mixing next time.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I think that's a great idea. So much to
unpack with vocals. It has been super fun and there's
so much more to get into when it comes to
vocal production and mixing. So I'm here for it and
I love getting nerdy with you, Carl, So let's do
a second partner.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah. I'm excited to get nerdier with you in the
next episode, but until then, you're the man, and uh
bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Bye Carl. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much
as we did. If anything here resonated with you, please
share this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Bonner.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the outro is great.
It's like whatever the demo itis of like before a demo,
like rehearsal itis. I guess you know they have. That's
the way that they've played it with the band two
bunch of times in rehearsal, they've played it on stage
fifty times, and they go into the studio. And if
you want to make a change, that is going to
be objectively, you know, helping to tell the story better,
helping to communicate the vision more. It's a bit more
(00:23):
of a struggle because they have to consciously try to
do something other than what they've spent all this time.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah doing Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're
listening to Secret Sonics, Honest conversations chock full of tactical
advice help you build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Let's get started. Hi, Ben, Hi Carl.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We are both tired, we are both in cranky moves,
but we are going to fix that today. We're going
to bring each other back up out of the depths
of to bring it back in misery and existential dread.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And I was gonna say more door, but I don't
know if you're a lord of the rings.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I am, it feels like more door these days. Yes,
but we are going to drop right into it because
we are also going to use this episode, this conversation
as our way to cheer each other up because we
need it. And sometimes talking about nerdy shit is what
makes us happy. And I hate to admit that it's
rare for me, but today's one of those days where
(01:31):
I'm excited to talk about nerdy shit. Well it's this
particular nerdy shit is something I do really care about,
and it is vocal processing. I don't know why I'm
talking like a AM radio DJ right now, but anyway,
vocal processing.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We don't want to start with like the vocal recording.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Well that's that's what I was going to say. I
felt like in the previous episodes we started with like
the production phase of it and then kind into mixing.
And for myself, I don't do tracking anymore, like at all.
I hate it, even when I'm playing the instruments. If
I'm playing drums on something like, I refuse to track myself.
I need to go somewhere else and have somebody else
worry about it. And vocals, I just haven't tracked somebody's vocals.
(02:15):
That wasn't like a quick for fun thing with a
friend in years. So I have a lot of thoughts
about like the editing and vocal production stuff. But when
it comes to actual straight up like voice into microphone
other than recording podcasts like this, I don't really do
much these days. So I want to tee it up,
(02:36):
toss it to you, and I want to hear what
your process has been like lately and if that's changed
over the past few months or a few years.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Okay, So I just also want to just like straight
up say I met my neighbor's apartment and recording into
my MacBook pro speakers because of all kinds of like
scheduling issues. So it's like ironic talking about vocals when
like my probably my voice probably sounds worse than ever
on this podcast. What's my approach to processing vocals? Okay,
to go back to the beginning, I mean I have
to touch a little bit on the recording process because
(03:06):
I track vocals for almost everything I'm working on. If
I'm you know, recording and mixing it and I don't
want to get too deep into it, but I try
to get as good a performance as I can. I'm
not one of these guys that gets you know, give
me four takes and I'll just choose the best stuff
and make it work. I really try to get every
single section how I want it, or as close as
the singer can get it to how I want it.
(03:29):
And you know that's you know, you have to read
the room and see what the artist is actually capable
of recording, but based on the limitations of the actual
singer getting it as close as I can. Yeah. And
I'm much more pandic about lead vocals than I'm about harmonies. Harmonies,
I don't mind tuning and doing crazy shit to make
them work. Just give me something that's like close enough
and like rhythmically cool, and I'll make it work. But
(03:52):
lead vocals, I really try to get as good as possible.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, could I stop you for a second, Yeah, I
want to. I do have like a tracking question for you.
Back when I was also doing a lot of vocal tracking,
I knew that there were going to be some artists
that really prefer to do lots and lots of just
like straight through top to bottom performances, or like doing
as few punches as possible. And then there are some
artists that really preferred to like focus on a particular
(04:16):
section and just really really nail that down. So I
know every artist is going to have their different preferences,
But for you, as the engineer and as like the
producer brain in that moment, do you have a process
that you really are more drawn to and why?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I don't think they make a difference to me. I
like them both, And it really depends on what the
artist is more comfortable doing. So you know, if I'm
working with an artist that can really sing, we'll usually
do full takes and then maybe we'll focus on like
a specific thing at the end. And then with a
vocalist who's a little bit newer, a little less experienced,
or just needs a little extra coaching, we'll probably take
(04:55):
a section by section and sometimes we'll start with the
verse and we realize, you know, we got a warm
your voice up, and we'll skip to the chorus and
we'll go back to the verse later. So it really
is I don't know if I have a preference. I mean,
I guess my preference is it's an amazing vocalist that
we could just do a take, right, but that's not typical.
So because I don't know if I prefer doing multiple
full takes versus like individual I guess I prefer individual
(05:17):
sections over multiple full takes if it's more than like
two full takes. You know, if you're Aretha Franklin, you
give me two full takes perfect. Otherwise I'm constantly thinking about, oh,
I like that part, like that part, and I'm trying
to like on the fly, camp things together and choose
the folders, you know, the takes. I really like the
logics comping thing, and so like I'm on the fly
(05:37):
just doing that. So it is a little easier to
do that section by section if the singer's not capable
of doing like full takes. So yeah, that's I don't
really have a preference.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, I think there's also a benefit, you know, depending
on how you break it up. There's also the benefit
of being able to give direction and give notes on
individual sections and not have to like overload them with
don't forget this and in this thing, and then when
you get here, try this, and then when it's like
over the course of a three minute song, like if
there are ideas that you have. I've found that unless
(06:08):
they are ruthther Franklin, who I have not worked with obviously,
you know, unless they're like at a really really crazy
high level, it's almost like too much for them to
really take it all in and apply it without being
stressed out about what they need to change, you know.
And I think that's one of the differences between working
with like a super pro vocalist that's like like session
(06:29):
vocalist sort of level, that they're able to keep those
notes in mind and have it not distract them from
the performance itself, similar to how I think a lot
of really great session musicians, you can give them specific
notes about like the you know, the third verse, and
they can do it from the top and still remember
what's happening in the third verse comms, and it's not
(06:50):
going to mess them up in the moment because there
it's so second nature to them to do the performance
of it that they're not in their heads and they
can only just like you know, focus on that moment
when that moment comes up. And I think with vocalists,
especially because of how important the vocals are in the
songs that you know that you and I work on anyway,
and how exposed they tend to be because of the
(07:12):
either the instrumentation or at least like the prominence that
the vocals have in the arrangement. It comes down to,
I think the confidence that the singer has, not just
in their voice and their performance, but the confidence that
they have in themselves to remember the things that they
want to do differently and not have it bog them
down and you know, not get in their own heads
(07:33):
as they're singing, because they're ye well, as they're singing
verse one, as they're singing chorus one, as they're singing
verse two, because they have this idea about going into
chorus two, and they're so focused on not forgetting that
thing and remembering that little like run that they did,
and then there's all like the mental aspects of it.
All that said, I think that's why for the least
the styles of music that I work on, which are
(07:54):
more in like the pop adjacent side of things, I
think doing it section bisection to work best because we
can really focus on creating as much drama in those
moments as we can without having to try to remember
a million things. But I think that would feel super
awkward and forced if I was doing a bunch of
you know, Americana or you know, a singer songwriter or
(08:16):
stuff that is meant to be more natural, And it
comes down to you do we Is it meant to
feel like an artist in the rumor is it meant
to feel like a hyper realistic like art piece, and
like where on that spectrum is the song? And I
think that for me is what kind of dictates what
vocal production, what vocal treking preference I'm going to have
(08:38):
in that moment.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And I would say also like if it's more of
a pop production, meaning like if it's less of a
pop production, it's more like a folk thing, they're more
likely to have worked it all out in advanced and
practiced it. And like I feel like with pop sessions
are usually in the studio trying to figure out the
best arrangement because.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's a.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Lot of times yeah, yeah, and I'm usually holding all
those ideas in my head while they're tracking.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So yeah, that really goes back to pre production and
like what the pre production process is for the artists
and some styles just have very different pre production systems,
you know, and approaches, you know, not just artists to artists,
but I think even some styles of music kind of
lend themselves more naturally to different.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Approaches to that. Yeah, like band music is much more
like the you know, it's much more like the band
has practiced a lot and gone over it and like
performed it at bars even before they've gotten into the
into the studio to track it. And that's that's much
more likely to be a normal, you know, full length
all the way through and they know exactly which part
what they want to do for every single section. I'm
supposed to pop artist, where usually you've worked out the
(09:42):
whole arrangement for the first time and they haven't been
performing this with the band necessarily, and this is their
first time coming up with what the actual vocal arrangement is.
It's in the recording session itself.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And I know we intended to start talking about like
the vocal like tracking and things, but I think this
is we're kind of going a step before that into
like the philosophy behind and like the preparation that they do,
which makes me think about like the blessing and the
curse that pre production and that you know, live performance
before recording gives you because the people that don't do
(10:12):
that prep and they don't do the lot. You know,
they don't rehearse as a band a bunch of times
and perform live. Like, yeah, they're going to be a
little bit less prepared for the session, but it opens
up the possibilities of experimenting and trying new things and
like they're they're not married to parts. On the flip side,
the people that have prepared a lot, it can be
a danger because sometimes they'll have something so ingrained in
(10:34):
their in their muscle memory and their and their brain
and they're so familiar. It's like whatever the demo itis
of like before a demo, like rehearsal itis. I guess
you know they have. That's the way that they play it.
That's way they've you know, they've played it with the
band two bunch of times in rehearsal, they've played it
on stage fifty times, and they go into the studio
(10:55):
and if you want to make a change, that is
going to be objectively, you know, helping to tell the
story better, helping to communicate the vision more. It's a
bit more of a struggle because they have to consciously
try to do something other than what they've spent all
this time doing.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
It really is a problem. The more you've listened to
one thing, the more you it's hard for you to
hear new things. It's a real, real problem, and I
think it's something we should all be trying to fight.
You know, we shall all be open to new ideas
and trying to get out of our demo witis, whatever
kind of demo witis it is. It's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
One of the things I've noticed over the past twenty
years being in the industry is that audio school usually
leaves most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,
you learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep,
but they probably won't teach you how to stand out
and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording, appreciate what you bring to the table, let
alone pay their rates you want to get paid, and
(11:47):
YouTube university is full of people telling you that their
way is the right way, and it doesn't help you
apply things to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients.
So I've been building studio land to fill those gaps.
We use structured learning. We leave live classes in a
private community of other pros to help you discover how
to turn your technical expertise into a thriving business that
attracts the right clients at the right rates. Try it
(12:10):
out for free the links in the show notes. So
once we have it down, once you have the parts
recorded and we figured out what we want to do,
and we get into the editing stage before I cut
you off to start going more into the you know,
behind the scenes philosophy of this stuff. You were talking
about Melodine and how you really prefer tuning in Melodine.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I do. I don't know if I always prefer that
I'm the one doing it, but yeah, Melodie, I find
I'm just able to get whatever I want out of Melodine.
It's so flexible and I'm able to use all the
different tools and parameters to to really coax a vocal
into where it should be. And that doesn't you have
to also, you know, it's a blessing and a curse
because sometimes you can go too far and you have
to know when to stop. And if like a vocal
(12:52):
feels really good and the emotion is being carried through,
then you shouldn't always necessarily tune it perfect. You should
maybe leave some stuff in so finding the right balance
between like exactly what you want and leaving you know,
the magic of a take in is definitely a balance
I'm trying to find personally. And I would say that,
you know, there was a time in my career where
I was doing a lot more like straight up getting
(13:14):
everything sound as intune as possible. And also, you know, harmonies,
I work less now in tuning than I used to.
I'm definitely leaving more more in there to be imperfect,
because I kind of love that. I think we've gotten
to be a bit too perfect, and I think it's
a problem or it's like, you know, the robots are
doing that anyway, so let's be human. Yeah, But I
am one who sometimes uses like auto tune or metitune
(13:36):
for backing vocals, not really for lead vocals, but to
you know, it's also a budget thing, Like if a
client doesn't have a ton of money, they don't want
to pay me for hours of editing. I could do
one hour of editing and get a really good lead
vocal and you know, kind of just auto tune the harmonies,
which nobody's going to really notice that anyways. So that's
(13:56):
sort of my my editing thing. And you know, sometimes
I will do some manual chops to get like teased
to like hit at the same time. Or there's like
breaths right before a chorus, and there's like if they
have like eight backing vocals, you know, or like there's
like three parts and they're stacked or whatever, and you
have like there's like it's big breaths and like where
(14:18):
the s is fall and stuff like that. So, yeah,
these are all things that we have to pay attention to,
and I'm attle bit pedantic about. So I do some
chopping also, not just tuning, And yeah, that's my approach
generally speaking to to tuning editing vocals. How about you, Carl,
I have more questions.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I'm not done asking you questions yet. I'm not done.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
But you do editing also, I know, but.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I I'll eventually transition, I know, I know. I just
have one less question and then I'll talk about myself
for a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Do you have anything in the editing process that you
are neurotic about? Like, are there any particular things that
you know, even when you want it to be quote
unquote natural or raw or loose, like, there are still
things that you have to fix because you it just
greats at your soul. Good example would be like, you know,
breaths in backing vocals.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Well, you know, a big thing I learned from Philip
Winrowe is to leave breath sin because the kind of
music I usually make is trying to make people not
freak out. And I do think that there's something calming
about hearing breaths and it feels more human. So I
definitely try to leave breath sin. Doesn't mean I don't
lower the gain on the breath or get rid of
the ones that really don't sound good or not in rhythm.
So I do definitely leave breaths in a lot these days,
(15:23):
and I didn't always. Yeah, another thing that's changed over
the years, I've become less perfect, and I think less
perfect is better generally speaking, not always. Something I do
a lot. Also in Meledine is I will change the
formant because sometimes, you know, a singer will hit a
note weird and it might sound too bright or too
dark compared to the rest of it, and then just
(15:44):
like a little bit of a formant shift could really
make it sound like it really should. So that's something
that I'm also listening for. And yeah, I don't actively
listen for it, because I'll hear it if I and
I'll know right away because I'm like very attuned to
this stuff. So yeah, but that's definitely something I would
say happens twice in every song is there'll be like
(16:04):
a slight sporman shift just to make it sound like
the person's voice and not like that weird note that
they hit somehow.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I've got a couple. I think. The one thing that
I'm I'm very i'm very kind of crazy about it's
going to be yes breaths in the backing vocals, but
specifically the breath right before the first note, like right
before the entrance of a backing vocal, so like especially
right before the chorus. If there's an entrance where the
(16:30):
backing vocals come in, like right on the downbeat, then
I want to make sure that in that moment before it,
I'm probably trying to create as much contrast as I
can and making things feel smaller so that the chorus
hits big. So then what I'll make sure that I
do is I got to get rid of any breaths
or you know, entrances in the backing vocal part because
(16:56):
I don't want to show my hands too soon. I
don't want to let the listener know that they're backing
vocals coming in. I want to make sure that when
they come in, it is like a smack in the
face and the surprise. And I think because of that too.
This is something that I picked up from Andrew Maury
years and years and years and years ago. I was
doing a remix for a band that he had produced,
(17:16):
and I remember the base at the beginning of the
chorus was like abruptly cut, like right exactly perfectly on
the grid, and when he played it in solo, it
had a little bit of like a click to it,
like it wasn't a clean cut, and I was like, oh, man,
I can't believe. I can't believe you let that slip
through here. That's kind of sloppy. So I like fixed
(17:38):
it air quotes for those listening to the podcasts, I'm
doing very aggressive air quotes. I fixed it, and all
of a sudden, the chorus didn't feel as good, it
didn't hit as hard, and then I realized that was
there to just add an extra little bit of like
that punch and like using the wrong thing, using like
the click of a bad fade air quotes bad fade
(18:00):
to add a little bit more oof to the downbeat.
So I started doing that to backing vocals as well.
So if there's a chorus especially, you know, I'm thinking
like pop. This is like pop stuff, you know, where
the downbeat is very strongly in unison, like the downbeat
of a chorus. And not only am I going to
mute the any kind of like breaths or any kind
(18:21):
of noise before, because I don't want to give away
that the chorus is coming. I don't want to give
away that the backing vocals are going to enter. But
then I'll I'm happy to just like cut it, you know,
cut the clip right on the downbeat, and then it
just adds that extra little bit of spice right on
that that downbeat.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, that's a really cool, cool hack.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
If this is one of those few times where I
learned from somebody else's quote unquote mistake, and it's become
like such a little hack for making your chorus at harder.
Same thing for bass, same thing for like sense, if
you're using any kind of like analogue sense or guitars,
anything that was recorded not programs and needs to be
like a right one other than drump parts. Trump parts
(19:01):
can get kind of funky if you don't get like
the beginning of the snare or something, but usually it
just like adds this extra bit of excitement to that
downbeat that you can't get from, you know, automating a
volume boost.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Or something that's so interesting. That's a new one for me.
I guess it's like clipping your converters if you're a
mastering engineers. I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, it's weird, but it usually sounds really awful in solo.
But then you put it in the context and you're like, oh, yeah,
that was.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
The right move, and that's the lesson. It's always in
the context, right.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Always, Yeah, And I think because of that, Like that's why,
just because of the context, I'm like you, I love Melodine.
I'm very particular with breadths and ESS's, and I'll still
use more often than not. I end up using melodine
and then autotune after it, with the autotune with a
pretty slow retuned speed, but just to give it kind
of that there's like a texture of autotune that I like.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, autotune has a sound. It has a sound.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, and especially when it's not not super tight, and
it doesn't sound like a Share song like it's it's
sort of like Future or somebody. I don't know why
it shows share I should have picked a slightly more
slightly more relevant recent artists. But yeah, usually like the
combination of those things. But when it comes to es
is this is where I am like maybe the most neurotic.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I know.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
We talked about this on the podcast year probably probably
years ago at this point, But I usually have three
or four different ds ers on a vocal part, all
doing very little, but all doing very like specific things.
And it's the analogy that I like to use for
those of you that are either rolling your eyes or
(20:42):
crying at my blasphemy here of using so many plugins.
But I look at it like I call myself like
a plug in minimalist, even though I use a lot
of plugins on vocals, it's because each plug in is
only doing one small specific thing, you know, Like you
could have one plug in on your vocals and it's
like cla Fox and it's like doing a whole bunch
of shit and makes it sound terrible. Or if I
(21:04):
use multiple compressors that all have different feels and different
amounts of you know what it does. I'm able to
have a lot less unintended consequences to the sound, And
the same thing with the dsers. So I like to
use the analogy of like, I have a big glass
desk over at my mixing studio and the studios up
on the third floor of an old warehouse, and I
(21:25):
could carry that glass top. I mean, it's pretty big.
It's probably like five or six feet wide. I could
have carried that up all those flights of stairs by myself,
and I would have been able to get it up there.
I mean, the downside would have been that I would
be exhausted, and the likelihood of me either denting or
(21:46):
scratching the walls or the table would have been pretty high.
But if I asked two or three of my friends
to help give me a hand to get up up
the stairs, we would have all been doing a lot
less work, We'd all be a lot less high, and
the likelihood of those unintended consequences of bonking up against
the wall, there's gonna be way fewer chances of that happening.
(22:08):
So I found that the minimalism, if we take it
literally and think, oh, we only need one dyes or
one plug in as few plugins as possible. If we
do that, that we're making that one plug in work
way too hard, and there's there's just like there's always
going to be some amount of diminishing returns with the
ds ER or any kind of like multi band anything,
(22:30):
whether it's like or soothe or pro.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And B whatever.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So if I'm able to do that, especially at different
points along the chain, you know, before compressors or after compressors,
or you know wherever, then I'm able to get the
more consistent sound that I want and not have to
pay the price of having the s is either be
too loud or to list by and have it sound
(22:57):
good for eighty percent of the song but then sounds
like pretty off for twenty percent. Now I can get
it to sound great for one hundred percent. But really,
the approach that I have for the yes ors and
the compressors like that kind of applies to how I
approach bixic in general, So we don't have to go
down that rabbit hole. I think what we should do
is maybe end this one for right now. I think
(23:18):
we've been enjoying the two partners lately, and I think
we should end this right now and then we'll get
into a little bit more mixing next time.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I think that's a great idea. So much to
unpack with vocals. It has been super fun and there's
so much more to get into when it comes to
vocal production and mixing. So I'm here for it and
I love getting nerdy with you, Carl, So let's do
a second partner.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah. I'm excited to get nerdier with you in the
next episode, but until then, you're the man, and uh
bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Bye Carl. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much
as we did. If anything here resonated with you, please
share this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Bonner.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the outro is great.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.