#251 - Context Context Context (Vocals Pt2) - Secret Sonics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What I'm going to say is, like number one, there's
no objective right or wrong about you know, if the
reverb is right or not. But number two, there's one exception,
and it is that you are wrong and you're an
idiot and I hate you.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Wow. Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening
to Secret Sonics, Honest conversations chock full of tactical advice
to help you build your dream career in music and audio.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Let's get started. Hi, Ben, Hi Carl.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
How are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:41):
I am doing pretty good man. How are you?

Speaker 3 (00:43):
I'm good.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
I feel like we're both in a much better mood
today than we were yes last time.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
This has been a better week for me than last week.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
That's that's good.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, it was not the least stressful attempt at recording
a podcast last week.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Well, to put it lightly, we'll just we'll just leave
it at that.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
We'll leave it there, yeah, put it mildly.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, But we survived that episode and now we are
here with a renewed sense of energy and excitement and
nerdy deep dive venus.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
If you're in the mood for some nerdy deep diving nous,
you're in the right place because we got you covered.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
So, last time we deep divness into vocal production and
we kind of started getting a little bit into some
mixing things, like I know I was going off on
my ds or rant, but we were still talking about
it in solo, Like we were kind of talking about,
you know, processing the vocals and the things that we're

(01:36):
trying to do with it, but we didn't get into
the grander context of how do we make the decisions
to get the vocals to sound great in the actual
context of the song, and how do we make not
just what plugins do we choose and what are we
doing like technique wise, but what are the questions we're
asking ourselves about the grander all of the different characters

(01:57):
in the song, all all the characters in the story.
How do we decide what to do with the vocals,
why we're doing it, and then.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
How to achieve that.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
So I want to kick it off by pointing at
you across the ocean, saying, Ben, my first question for
you if at all. How do you approach mixing lead
vocals versus backing vocals. Do you have a preference, like
a kind of a go to approach to that?

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Hmm, well, I would definitely say that lead vocal. There's
a lot more thought behind anything happening in a lead
vocal than in a backing vocal. Not to say that
there isn't thought in a backing vocal, but I don't
think I've ever started with backing vocals first. You know,
I might do the lead vocal right after doing the
drum and the bass, but I'm not doing backing vocals
before we started the lead vocals. Yeah, there's definitely a

(02:47):
difference in the approach, and I definitely am trying to
get a lead vocal to be more present, almost always
unless for some reason you want to muffle voice or something,
but like you want the voice to be upfront heard,
you know, loud and and hopefully shining. Whereas the backing vocals,
the thought process is more about supporting the lead vocal

(03:08):
and finding its place in the mix, you know, in
terms of like balance and stuff. You know, they might
have different effects, they might have similar effects, but just
like one has a slightly kind of like a different
kind of eq thing going on, or maybe there's like
more reverb than the lead vocal because you want it
to sound like it's further back, or who knows. I mean,
this is like a very broad question. It's very difficult
to kind of give you what I usually do with this,

(03:29):
But yeah, lead vocal is definitely front and center of
every mix, and the mix won't ship until I'm really
happy with the vocal. So like, if I'm listening back
and the s's are not the way I want them,
I'm going to go back in and fix that before
we you know, obviously. Yeah, but lead vocals. I love
mixing lead vocals, and I think that's one of the
things that people like about my mixes When like random

(03:51):
people will give me feedback about my mixes, like, oh,
the vocals just shining. I could tell that, like, You've
put a lot of work into it, and I do.
I'm all about really sculpting lead vocal to get exactly
what I want out of it, and you know, I'll
hear it and I'll know where I want to go.
Kind of thing. That's just years of mixing and equing
vocals and compressing vocals and knowing sometimes I get down

(04:12):
to like a really nitty gritty like level of like
if I boost a little bit more top end, it
sounds a little less muddy. But choosing the right EQ
to do it, and like just like getting that perfect tone.
I try not to like compromise on the vocal sound.
Like you know, people compromise other instruments so that everything
has its place right, you don't want masking and stuff.
But with the lead vocal, I don't really want compromises.
I want it to sound as beautiful and lush and

(04:34):
upfront as possible. So that's not to say it will
be above the mix because I don't think my vocals
are too loud. I think they they sit in the
mix nicely. And that also has to do with the
separation of the low end and the top end and
you know the mids.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
Right and the style of music that you're doing too,
like it'.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
And the style of music vocal Yeah, I like it.
I'm not into that. Yeah, I don't. That doesn't happen
very much in the music I'm mixing. Like the vocals
just like way too loud. That's that's not very common. Yeah,
But I would say that, like because there's like the
lead vocal is mostly mid range and top end, it's everything,
but it doesn't have a lot of low end, so
there's always the low end to kind of fill out things.

(05:09):
So for me, that's like the secret of getting a
vocal in the mix sitting nice. I mean, I don't
know if I think about it so much when I'm
actually mixing, but like the vocal will sound really loud,
but it won't dominate the mix if there's enough low
end stuff happening. So it's just kind of it's like
a puzzle. I don't know. I feel like I'm blabbering
now I should keep going when the lead vocal or
do you want to kind of differentiate between the lead

(05:31):
vocal and the backing vocals, Well, I was gonna.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Say I can't separate them, huh, because Carl I always
coming out of left field here, But like, I love
it every time you say something and it makes me
think a little differently and it improves my workflow.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
So oh, like yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
So here's here's my thought on it.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
It's that if the backing vocals are always going to
be intended to support, well, they're not always intended to
support because there are going to be sometimes where the
backing vocal is meant to be supporting texture and like
extra body to it, and they're gonna be sometimes where
it's meant to be like feel like an explosion, because
there are sometimes where you want the like the harmonies

(06:10):
and the backing vocals and the doubles to be tucked
away and maybe like you're kind of softening the top end,
you're softening the transience you're getting, you know, really being
more cautious with the essays because like even have them
maybe tucked in a little bit because you don't want
them to distract from the lead vocal. You just want
them to be felt that other times you want it
to feel like a Muse song or Queen, where it's

(06:32):
just like in your face, like the whole, like every
part of the spectrum is just like this big wall
of vocals. So to me, I can't really separate it
because I feel like everything I do with the backing
vocals has to be following and like filling the right
role that it needs to in that moment of the song.
But to be able to do that, I need to

(06:53):
always know what the lead vocal is doing, and I
need to make sure that they're working together to create
that that because without backing vocals, there is no lead
you know what I mean, if you want to think
of it, kind of me it's a little bit a
little a little bit heady to think about, but.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, I mean, yeah, there could be just a vocalist.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, yeah, So like what I try to think of
it's like, okay, well what do I need to do
in this moment?

Speaker 3 (07:16):
And if I want the backing.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Vocals to be a support, that's going to also change
maybe what I do to the lead vocal because usually
not going to need as much effects on it, like
as many like you know, reverbs and delays and things.
If that extra texture and support is coming from backing vocals,
but if there's not a lot of backing vocals, maybe
I do need to, you know, get some of that
texture and movement and that little like you know, modulation

(07:41):
variation kind of textural stuff. Maybe I do need to
get that from the way that I process the lead.
So in a way, like the more prominent the backing
vocals are meant to be in that part of the song,
the less I need to do to the lead vocal,
because then it's just going to be adding a ton
of you know, like mud, and not just like eq
mud in you know, in the AQ sense, but just

(08:01):
like stuff that is happening, the reverb tales, the delays
that are just kind of tripping over the backing vocals
that all of a sudden, now it's kind of I'm
taking up too much space with not the lead vocal itself,
but the effects that the lead vocal has added on
to it.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, that's a really interesting thought, and I would say
I just kind of do things inversely, you know. I
would probably just make sure that the lead vocal is
is super splendid, and then I'll add in the backing
vocals and see what that does to it. And then
if it is too messy, then I will dip things out.
Maybe I'll scale back some of those reverbs, or maybe
I won't put any reverb on the backing vocal because

(08:38):
it's just like textural, you know what I mean. Like
it's kind of like chasing your tail, you know what
I mean. You could go either way, and then you're
gonna just like mess around until it suits your you
know what you're listening for kind of thing. And there
are definitely tracks where it's a you know, a big
eshtalt of vocals, and you know that's like a big
part of the sound, in which case, like I might

(08:59):
do harmonies at a similar time to the lead vocal,
you know what I mean, And I might like do
a lot of tweaks in tandem with just maybe just
soloing lead vocals and the harmonies. And you're not supposed
to solo anything while you mix, but but sometimes you
do that. Do you solo your lead vocals when you're
mixing them?

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yes, but less when I'm actually making mixing decisions, And
like it's more of what I'm fixing problems. It's more
what I'm like searching for an issue, like I hear
there's something weird happening, like there's some sort of frequency
build up in the reverb, like especially especially if there
are Let's say that I get a track and it

(09:36):
has like a double and a triple in the chorus,
like it's meant to be like a big thick but
they're all sung in unison. And maybe the person that
the producer that said it to me maybe went a
little more aggressive and tight with the tuning that I
would have probably preferred in this situation. I like having
my like doubles and triples like a little bit looser,

(09:57):
because what happens if they're all too close then you
have three different vocal tracks all hitting the same like
really narrow frequency window, all at the same time. And
then if that note is also being played by a
synth or a guitar or piano or something, that it's
like you get these spikes in that little particular frequency range,

(10:20):
and you know, like the the less tight the vocal is,
the wider that is, and therefore like it's more of
a hill and less of a mountain peak, if that
makes sense. So it's usually when I'm soloing a vocal
in the mix. It's usually because like I'm hearing something
weird and I'm trying to figure out, well, which which
of the vocals is like adding to that problem, and
then how can I isolate it, you know, rather than

(10:40):
making character building sonic decisions on it. It's usually when
I'm like in detective mode trying to figure out what's
making that thing happen that I don't.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Like, Yeah, what's your thought process in terms of like
balancing a lead vocal? Is there any thought to it?
Do you like your vocals loud? Yeah, what's going on
in your brain when you're like just thrown up the
vocal and you're playing it against the rest of the track.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
I generally like it on the louder side, but I
like texture and the instrumental elements too much to just
go like full on. Like I generally am not want
to have the vocals be like right here up in
your face. And if you're listening to this and you're
not watching it, I just imagine me putting my hand
half an inch away from your eyeballs, because that's how

(11:23):
some like vocal mixes feel.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
I feel very uncomfortable, right, Yeah, there's good, good, that's
that's the goal.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
You haven't said that to me in a couple of weeks,
and I feel like I've been.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
You've been playing it too safe, too safe.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
And there's something against those kind of vocals when the
style calls for it. I just am usually working on
stuff that is a little bit left of censer, so like,
I want the vocals to be prominent and heard, but
not at the there's like some artists in pop or
like the vocal is the only thing that they really
care about, and that's cool, that's I guess that's their thing.

(11:56):
That's usually not the kind of artists that I'm working with,
where they do really like all of the instrumental textures
and things. So it's fighting that balance of keeping the
vocals pop enough, you know, on top enough, without it
feeling like it's just kind of aggressively placed in front
of everything else. So one of the things that I
do that enables to do that to keep the volume

(12:16):
of the vocals feeling loud without it actually being loud,
and without it pushing down all the instrumentals every time
that it hits the limitter. I'm just very cautious and
thoughtful about what's happening in the top end of all
of the other tracks. So, I know we talked about this,
I think it probably a couple of months ago, but
how you know, everybody talks about, oh, yeah, you want

(12:37):
to you know, remove the subrequencies of instruments that you
don't need, Like there's no need for thirty herts in
a high hat track. Generally speaking, there's no need for
you know, thirty herts in a flute part if it's
like in the background or whatever orhereverever. Yeah, but I
mean it could be it's like a contra based flute,

(12:58):
you know, like I don't want to make or cat stroll.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
One out of two million tracks has thirty hertz in
the flute, you know, yeah, mattering.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Maybe Actually that's probably an overestimation of how frequently that
would be. But I look at the top end the
same way, like, there are a lot of instruments that
don't need you know, fifteen K. They just don't, like
a lot of guitars especially, and the stuff that I'm doing,
I a lot of times will have a low pass
filter when the guitars that there's rarely anything above like

(13:26):
seven or eight K, just because we don't need it.
And you're talking about electric guitars, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
cool acoustic guitar is usually a little bit higher. But
even then there's usually some stuff that's like at the
very very top that is just string noise and like
squeakze and like hiss that are not actually musical.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
And I think that's it.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
It's just it's not getting rid of high frequencies because
you're supposed to get rid of high frequencies. It's just
like getting rid of the non musical consequences of it
being an instrument, so whether it's in the bottom end.
Last week we talked about the like sub frequencies in
a high hat part, like in a live high hat,
and it's not because that's what the symbol sounds like.
It's because it's the physical manifestation of you hitting the

(14:07):
high hats with the stick. That physical vibration is traveling
through the stand down to the floor, up the microphone
stand and shaking the microphone capsule at you know, twenty
hrtz or whatever like that is not musical. So I'm
getting rid of it. And I think there's a lot
of things in synth parts, in loops, especially when you

(14:28):
get any kind of like drum loops or drum samples
that are just so overhyped. There's a lot of information
that is just not actually musically necessary. So rather than
having to push the volume up on the lead vocals
or adding a bunch of top pend on the lead vocals,
if I'm just cautious about what's going on in the
top end of everything else, I'm able to just kind

(14:49):
of carve out that space kind of like you were saying,
in the bottom end, you know, carving out although that
unnecessary low end of the vocal and having the instrumental
kind of fill that out. This is the inverse on
the top end where I'm carving out that unnecessary, unmusical
stuff out of the instrumental, so that all of that
air and the clarity of the lead vocal is what

(15:09):
is shining. And that's why, you know, going back to
the backing vocals and the decisions that I make in
the backing vocals based on what the lead's doing and
what the backing vocals are supposed to be doing underneath it.
It's a question of I ask this kind of like
section bisection, but like in this moment at least, are
these backing vocals are they meant to be felt or heard?

Speaker 3 (15:30):
You know?

Speaker 1 (15:30):
And if they're meant to be felt, I'm probably going
to also do a low pass on the backing vocals
because I don't necessarily want a bunch of air. I
don't want really prominent s's. I'm probably going to use
something like I usually use the even tight omnipressor on
my backing vocal buses because it has like an upward
compressor as well. But what I've found is that if

(15:52):
I adjust the attack time to be as short as possible,
it really doesn't let the transience come through, like it
really does a great job of just cutting them off.
So what I'll do is, I'll either have it as
short as I can when I don't want transcends to
come through and I want it to feel a little
bit softened as far as the punch goes. But then
if I want them to be more more prominent and

(16:13):
I want them to be like more heard, I won't
do the low pass filter. I'll probably adjust the attack
time to like ten milliseconds or something, just so like
exaggerate the entrances and exaggerate the transients of those backing
vocals so that way they actually poke through just a
little bit more. I might make it for that section,
I might make the vocals you know, all the way wide,

(16:35):
But if I want it to be felt not heard,
I might only make them like halfway out to the side.
So it's not just a volume thing of like how
loud should they be relative to the lead vocal. It's like, well,
thinking of it three dimensionally, how loud should it be,
how deep should it be? How high you know, like
frequency raine should it go? How wide should it be?
How punchy should it be? I've found like just having

(16:59):
reverb on it doesn't always do the trick, you know
what I mean, Like, yeah, you're adding reverb, you're adding space,
but you're not actually removing the things that are potentially
causing the distractions in the first place, like the transients
and the essays and the air and the breaths and
like the entrances.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, that's great. I love that that compressor trick. And yeah,
I definitely I would say maybe I lean a little
more on EQ than on compression in terms of getting
a vocal to sort of fit where I want it
to be, but you know, obviously also using compression. Yeah,
Also I totally relate to what you're talking about, like
the width of the vocal. Like my panning for vocals
are all over the place, and they're very often all

(17:39):
the way wide, and they're very often really tight and
in the middle, and it sort of just really depends
what you want to get out of the vocal. And like,
if you want wide, lush, big vocals like bo Human Rhapsody,
they're probably wide, wide panned, and I'll go all the
way left and right and do stuff like that. And
if it's something that just wants to you know, it's
more of a texture, it's just underneath that supporting it.

(18:00):
Then it might be like you know, you know, like
ten to the side or something, you know, like with
like the logic panner. Yeah, so it totally totally depends.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
So that's where I want to poke you a bit
and like, yes, I agree, it all depends. But instead
of us just saying like, well, it depends, you know, there's.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Well I'm saying that you're you're being very coherent, and
I'm just saying it depends.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
I was trying not to throw you under the bus.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Ben, you just throw me under the stereo bus. But
I'd rather be I'd rather be thrown under the vocal
box bus. You know that.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
That?

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, that was hurt.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
That hurt, unforgivable, pun, unforgivable. I'm sorry everybody, You get
your money back.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
It's just free content. We don't know anything to anybody.
They can enjoy this and take what they want for
this episode and they have to just deal with a
few terrible puns.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
Them a couple of IQ points at least.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
But anyway, I want to poke you a bit further
and say, like, so, what are some situation like you know,
sometimes it's wide, sometimes it's snarrow so like, and there's
sometimes just louder or somethings a softer so like.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
What are some examples of, you.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Know, moments and an arrangement where you would want to
like push them wider verse.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's exactly what I was thinking about as you were
framing this question. Usually first verse, there's probably not gonna
be any harmonies. First course, there might be a harmony,
and it usually grows as a song goes along. So
I would say nine times out of ten there's harmonies
in the second verse, in which case it might just
be one harmony, right, And then if it's like one
little harmony that's just supporting the lead vocal and you're

(19:37):
changing the song up and you're taking the listener on
a journey, that's usually the kind of thing where it's
just like one vocal, put it a little bit to
the side, tuck it in, find the right balance, find
the right like amount of punch or you know, presence
versus the lead vocal. As you're saying, that's usually pretty simple.
But then as the song develops, usually redoubling harmonies, and

(19:57):
we might have like two harmonies that are each double,
you know, that would be pretty typical for a song
I'm working on a third above a fifth blow or
something I don't know, and then you know, those could
all be panned full out and then and then we're
in like Bohemian rhapsody land, you know, and we're making
those harmonies sound really loud and proud, you know, compared
to the lead vocal. And so it just kind of

(20:18):
you know, as you build the song and you build that,
you build the momentum, you want to maybe add more
panning to your palette and that can build excitement and
make the final chorus you know, super strong and powerful.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Good, I'm glad you said that, because that's that's what
I wanted to kind of get into as well. Where
it's the acknowledgement that the right processing, the right balance,
the right contextual choices that you make for a vocal
is going to change from moment to moment in the song.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, and even doubled like lead vocals or you know,
a lead vocal might get doubled in like the first chorus,
and then it might get tripled in the third chorus,
you know, and so like those things also change, and
then the panning will depend also, like that could change
panning all together, Like I could double a lead vocal
that's like smack in the middle, or I could pan
them out a little bit or all the way. So

(21:06):
it just depends on the on the track what it's
a calling for. And that's just experience and knowing what
you like. But all these things are tools that our disposal. Yeah,
that's what about you, Carl, with like the you know,
the evolution of the vocal over time and the story.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
You know, I'm constantly going from like section to section
as asking myself, like what needs to happen here? Yes,
I think that's why I try to start with the
second chorus or the third chorus, kind of depending on
how long the song is. And again I'm working primarily
in like pop adjacent styles, so choruses are important generally speaking,
and I usually start towards the end where it's like

(21:43):
the maybe like the most exciting part of the song,
like the highest energy part of the song, and specifically
the part that has the most vocals. And usually what
I like to do is I like to start there
when I'm getting the balances, because if I can get
that to feel really good and really big, then I
know what I'm aiming for throughout the rest of the song,

(22:05):
So then when I go I kind of work myself backwards.
I can make the adjustments to make sure that the
things that I'm doing in the third like in the bridge,
are creating the tension to lead up to that chorus.
The things that I'm doing at the end of the
second chorus in the beginning of the bridge like that
they're creating some contrast and some tension and momentum.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
And then like going back to.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
The second verse and like, how do I always make
sure that I'm kind of like growing and like interesting
ways that keeps the listener excited. So if I and
also like generally speaking, in a lot of the stuff
that I work on, by the time you get to
that last chorus, it's kind of like the everything including
the kitchen sink has been throwed at that section, so
I kind of know, all right, like I know what

(22:49):
the important parts are going to be. I can make
sure that I'm prioritizing the parts that are happening more
often in the song, like if there is like obviously
like the base, the kick, drump, like the things that
are going to be more more present, And then that
helps me to from an overall mixed standpoint, figure out, well,
what are the little textures that are coming in just
in that last section. But then from like a vocal standpoint,

(23:11):
I can kind of see where I'm headed so that
I don't get too exciting too fast early in the beginning.
So that enables me to make some choices where maybe
I am gradually sneakily stepping up the backing vocals throughout
the song. Maybe they're getting a little bit brighter throughout
the song, maybe they're getting a little you know, depending

(23:32):
on what I'm going for. But it's maybe just maybe
I want them to be more prominent in the choruses
and less prominent in the verses. Maybe I want them
to be not really prominent at all until the bridge,
and then when the bridge comes in, it's just like
that's the big wall of vocal moment. But I always
have to ask myself, like, what do the vocals need

(23:53):
to be doing in this moment? And that's that's the
question I ask myself about Eddie instrument. It's like, what
in this moment, in this scene of the play, who
is the lead, where should the spotlight be? Who should
be adding interest in the background, but not getting in
the way and not being distracting. And it's like the
scenes change, it's not. You don't go to see a

(24:13):
play and everybody sits at the exact same place with
the exact same prominence. That would be the most boring
thing to watch ever. And I treat mixing in the
same way, whether it's the backing vocals or the lead
vocals or any of the instruments. It's always figuring out
what can I do to the rest of the song
to make the vocals stay prominent when I want them

(24:35):
to be prominent, And then what can I do to
the rest of the song and to the vocals when
I want them to sit back and be part of
the ensemble, yeah, rather than taking a lead amazing. One
of the things I've noticed over the past twenty years
being in the industry is that audio school usually leaves
most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,

(24:58):
you learn how to rewire a patch, bait sleep, but
they probably won't teach you how to stand out and
attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion for recording,
appreciate what you bring to the table, let alone pay
their rates you want to get paid, and YouTube university
is full of people telling you that their way is
the right way, and it doesn't help you apply things
to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients. So I've

(25:19):
been building studio land to fill those gaps. We use
structured learning paths, weekly live classes in a private community
of other pros to help you discover how to turn
your technical expertise into a thriving business that attracts the
right clients at the right rates. Try it out for
free the links in the show notes.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Do we want to talk about, like what kind of
like effects we do to vocals to help them sit
in the mix, Like maybe like things that we're thinking
about in terms of like getting a vocal to really
be a part of the environment it's in.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, I mean I think unsurprisingly, I'm probably going to
say something that you're going to have to have me
explain because it makes sense in my head. But when
I first say it, you're gonna be like, what the hell?

Speaker 3 (26:00):
You know?

Speaker 1 (26:00):
If I want the vocals to stay in the front,
I usually don't make any changes to them, and I'm
just making changes to the instrumental and specifically I like
to do a lot of I do a lot of
side chaining in my mixes, and a lot of utility
side chaining that is doing very subtle things, but it's
just to help retain the pecking order of the different layers.

(26:22):
So I think when I talk to mixing engineers and
I say that I use a lot of side chaining,
they just kind of assume I'm talking about like deft
punk or some sort of like really heavily aggressive. Oh,
when the kick hits, everything else gets silent for a
split second, And that's not really what I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
I think.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
For the vocals specifically, I really like using pro mb
so it's like a multi band compressor, but I side
chain it to the vocals, and I have that on
all of my other primary buses, like before it goes
to my mix bus, I have vocals, drums, basses, instruments,

(27:01):
and all the effects, all the different effects sense to
go there, and I have it on all four of
those other ones where I have it that you know,
when the vocal is really digging into that, you know
that range from like two to five K it's ducking
everything else just a little bit. Like I think at
most it does like a dB you know that gets.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Not including on the on the drums and the bass
on the drums, the bass, yeah, everything, Yeah, you're narrowed
in on that frequency zone. You're like, it's not going
to actually affect the punch of the bass. It's only
going to affect the mid range where it might be
masking the vocals present.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, well, I have a couple of different bands in it,
but it's only because it's separated that way and doing
a multi band. It's only when the vocals are getting
really like if there's a lead vocal that is pitch
shifted and foreman shifted down to octaves and is meant
to be some word crazy like textural thing and it's
so loud, then it would maybe affect a little bit

(27:57):
of the kick drum. But usually if I'm doing something
like that realistically, that's probably meant to be such a
unique moment in the song that I'm probably muting everything
else that's happening anyway, and it's just focusing on like
the only thing that you can hear in that little
split second is that those two notes that is a
super affected low octave vocal. So it really wouldn't matter anyway,

(28:20):
it's just when there happens to be like if there's
a really big group vocal that comes in and it's
really big in full and it's meant to be huge
like in that in those little situations when it happens
to go high enough over the threshold in the you know,
like the lower mid range that it does anything to
the kick, I'm okay with that because the punch of

(28:40):
the kick is not the priority there. The priority is
clearly the big wall of vocals at this huge, like
you know, pinnacle moment of the song. So if my
kick drum punch gets reduced by half a dB for
that one moment, nobody's gonna notice, And if anybody notices it,
then like I didn't make the actual vocal moment exciting.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Enough anyway, Right, Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
But I've found that I do this same approach. Like
it's why I actually process any sort of like solo,
Like if there's like a guitar solo in it, or
like a sim solo or whatever, I process that as
a lead vocal because I look at it in the
same way where whether it's a lead vocal or it's
like a lead instrument, that's the thing that should be

(29:25):
in front of everything else.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
So that's going they're all going to the same bus,
and that bus is trigger is triggering the side chain compressor.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, so there's a guitar solo in the bridge that's
actually going to be making all of the other instruments,
you know, duck out a little bit when it's going
over the threshold for like the upper mid range or
for like the lower package, whatever it is. So I'm
treating it like a lead vocal because a lead vocal
is to me synonymous with you know, the sonic priority.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
What is the narrative priority from.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Moments of the storytelling moment.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah, guitar solo acts as that storytelling moment. That's what
you know. People wouldn't add a guitar solo if they
didn't want you to listen.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
To it, you know, No, So for sure, Well, I
actually do sometimes guitar solos that are like background guitar
solos for like a big chorus where you just want
to have a little bit more energy, But it's not
really a solo. I guess it's just like guitar likes
in the background.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, because yeah, that it's that's the thing, Like, it's
not a solo. Then it's like it is a it's
a lead part.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
I love how Like, yeah, just like talking about lead vocals,
we have to talk about everything else in the mix
because they just it's all part and parcel, right, can't.
You can't divorce the vocal from the mix, and you
can't divorce the mix from the vocal. It's all because
the mix is supporting the vocal and the vocal has
to sit in the mix. So yeah, they just go
together in such a I think.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
That's you know why it's it's so weird to say
it out loud. I never really I don't think I
ever really thought about it in this sense. But I
think the first few steps of mixing vocals are investigating
the instrumental, making changes to the instrumental, like before I
even really touch the vocal. I mean, it makes sense
when you say it out loud, but I don't think

(31:07):
I've ever like said that out loud before. I don't
think I've ever really thought of it in those terms.
But yeah, that's like that has to be the first step.
But I think that's the that's the thing that especially
online production education and like mixing education kind of skips
over it's that initial deep dive into understanding what the
context is that you're trying to create and what is

(31:28):
the context that you currently have, and that is what
informs all of those decisions. And I think it's usually well,
the first step is you're going to you know, remove
any unnecessary low end, you know, like it's usually like
diving into these objectalities, like these like supposedly objective technicalities
that really aren't taking into consideration what's actually happening. Because

(31:53):
I would even say, you know, when it comes to
getting rid of like that the super low end, if
it's a section of the song where there's other layers happening,
which happens a lot in the you know, alt pop
kind of kind of world that I'm in, then yeah,
I don't want there to be any extra low end
mud that's not musical because there's plenty of other instruments
in that section. Well, let's say that it drops down

(32:15):
to a bridge where it's literally just vocal and piano
or maybe an acoustic guitar or something. Well, then there's
nothing else happening in that bottom end. And if I
get rid of the those like subrequencies from the vocals,
not only does it sounds empty, but also it doesn't
sound as intimate because if it was just you know,
if you are just listening to somebody talk and you're

(32:37):
next to them, like you do feel those those vibrations,
you do, you do feel that, So it actually makes
it feel more intimate if you're less cautious of what's
happening in the bottom end for those moments.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, what I do all the time is just like
make duplicate tracks and have like slightly different eques on them.
You know, a high pass that's like cutting a lot
more highs or whatever. Yeah, like cutting going deeper, you know, yeah,
you know, or just like finding a frequency that's bothering
me in this one specific spot that's like you know,
not working with the guitar for some reason, or the
guitar is not working with the vocals. So like, let's

(33:12):
dip out five hundred hertz in this one spot you know,
for this like two measures, and then it'll go back
to the way it was, you know the next measure,
because now it's on a different track.

Speaker 3 (33:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, it's constantly in motion and moving. Yeah, it's it's
all part and parcel. But one thing I wanted to
kind of talk about in terms of like gluing a
vocal with the mix is sharing reverbs, And I don't
know if there's something that you do, but I tend
to like have a few reverbs on a lead vocal,
like I would say two or three reverbs and maybe
two delays or something typically on like on a lead vocal,

(33:45):
and a lot of other instruments are probably going into
some of those reverbs, so not all of them, but
like the guitars and the pianos could be going into
the same you know, maybe it's a plate reverb that
the vocal is on and it will mesh them into
the same space.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Do you have like one like well, I'm just gonna
call it bus fifty, right, yeah, bus fifty first fifty.
If you see bus fifty is your plate reverb? Do
you have the vocals going to bus fifty and also
the guitar going to bus fifty and also that or
do you have it like no, bus fifty is for
like the the vocals going to that plate reverb and

(34:18):
then bus fifty one is the same settings as bus fifty.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
But well it could be either way. It kind of
depends on the mix. Yeah, I don't always duplicate the
settings and use it differently with different instruments, because I
don't always have to, and it's just like the way
I'm used to mixing. But sometimes I do and sometimes
I don't, kind of fifty to fifty. But but yeah,
it could be the same bus that it's like an
auxiliary bus and there's a reverb plugging on it, and

(34:44):
I'm sending it from the lead vocal, and I'm sending
it from the acoustic guitars, and I'm sending you know,
I don't know, the mandolin whatever. They're all going to
that in various amounts. And then if you solo that
auxiliary bus, you'll hear a bunch of vocal reverb and
then a little bit of those other reverbs. But it
could also be in two separate auxiliaries that are playing
that have the exact same settings.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah, mine for me, like I always go to separate ones,
like I always have, like I have, I have a
separate one for.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
You're doing much cleaner like kind of pop mixes than
I am, and it's it's more necessary probably for the
stuff that you're doing well.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
I would say it's just about having it be a
clean pop mix. It's more that I want control control,
to be able to have a moment where I can
like hard mute all of the instruments and totally vocal
reverbs are able to still continue, but the instrumental reverbs
are muted, which I can't do because like you can
try to like stop sending them preemptively, you know.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
And it's just like a weird thing.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
And that's something that you do all the time, and
that's something that doesn't come up very often in the
music I'm working on.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
Like every every mix that happens at some point, Like
I'm being very I do a lot of automation on
my effects buses.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, no, ill, I know that about you, And I'm
just saying, like for me, that's like one out of
fifteen mixes that that happens. So but just because of
the styles of music we're working.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
On, yeah, and for me it's like sixteen out of fifteen.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah exactly, yea perfect. Anyways, the point is less the
technicality of how I'm doing it and more the point
of just like finding a space for the mix and
having the vocal and some other instruments live in that
same space can really help things jive and mesh together.
And I'm a big blender of reverbs. I like to
use a lot, like a bunch of different reverbs to

(36:27):
get a amalgamation that has like the right space for
the song, you know, and it also reverb will like
it affects like the emotion of the vocal and it
also places it in that space of the mix. And
I find that I just like have a lot of
success using multiple reverbs to do that. Yeah, And I
have a lot of success of some instruments sharing reverbs

(36:48):
with the vocal to get it all to mix together,
and that you know, usually the drums are not going
to any of those kinds of reverbs, right like, but
often a piano or a guitar or you know, some
other accompanying instrument will, but also the vocal will have
more reverbs that they're not going to.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, I just as you were saying that, it reminded
me to add a song to the Secret Sonics.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
I was so on top of it, and I lost it.
This week we need to add more song more.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
I added a couple, but this one I was gonna say,
like we're talking about, you know, using different reverbs. I
think the artist that I feel is like a masterclass
in reverb. Every time I listen to them, it's Vampire Weekend,
and they have some songs where just like the the
use of reverb and the use of different reverbs to

(37:33):
just create these interesting characters for each of the tracks,
it is unreal. So yah Hey is the one that
I just added to the playlist now. It is there
are some moments that are just so big and reverby,
and then some parts that are so like uncomfortably dry
that even the contrast between them creates this like almost

(37:58):
like a like a hostage note where it's like you
know what I mean, like the different like cutout letters
from a magazine or like a like a kidnapper what
was sent, but like in a really good way, And
so it's kidnapping, but for the greater good of music.
And I'm always fascinated by listening to their music and
headphones because number one, like the songwriting is always so
weird and so memorable and catchy despite how weird it is,

(38:21):
but their use of space is always something that continues
to fascinate me. So I would recommend definitely listen to
ya Hey by Vampire Weekend in your monitors or in
really great headphones because it is just it's an experience.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
I have to say. I don't know what I'm about
to do, but I will say that I have never
gotten into Vampire Weekend because I found that the use
of reverb, while cool, made it feel less emotional. You know.
I felt like there was an emotional disconnect inside of
Vampire and Weekend's music for me, because it felt like
they were just using things as an effect asteat of

(39:00):
like like they were using it too like too much almost,
And even if they're doing it really well, which they are,
it feels like it takes away from whatever songwriting is
underneath it. They've actually lost me from their reverb, which
is like the opposite of what you're saying, which is
really funny. And there's other artists that I've lost me
because of reverb, actually thinking of Flea Foxes, like their
first record, which is like, should be an amazing record

(39:22):
I should love, but it's like the same reverb on
the whole record, and it's so wet, and it's just
like I can't, I can't listen to this anymore, Like
it's taking away from whatever else is happening here. So
I'm not a post to using a lot of reverbs sometimes,
but I'm for me, like, it could be really cool
in a one spot in a song, but if a
whole song has a lot a lot of reverb and
they're using it to kind of they're almost like leaning

(39:43):
on it, I lose it because it no longer talks
to me on emotional level, you know.

Speaker 3 (39:47):
Yeah, well, I think there's two things. I say.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Number one, I think it's just a difference between using
reverb to create a sense of space and using reverb
to create a sense of character. Yeah, and we both
just like and it's like not that one is objectively
right or wrong, just like yeah, it's like, especially if
you think about even the styles of music that we
work on, like you tend to lean more towards the

(40:11):
acoustically driven, like natural instruments in a space, and for me,
I'm into like weird sound design things, so like, of
course it makes sense that I'm going to be drawn
to the some of the like the same aspects that
you actually are.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Pushed away by.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So yeah, the first thing is that
there's no objectively right or wrong.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
But the second thing.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Is, and this is also such a tangent from what
we should be talking about.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
No, no, we're talking about we're talking about vocal like vocal
but how it's how it's in the mix. So this
is like perfectly okay, cool, Like this is spot on.
So yeah, number one, there's no objective.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
I like, how much we disagree about this?

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Also, like yeah, well that's That's what I'm going to say.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Is like number one, there's no objective right or wrong
about you know, if the reverb is right or not.
But number two there's one exception, and it is that
you are wrong and you're an idiot and I hate you.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
Wow, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, Ben.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
I know, I know you're kidding.

Speaker 3 (41:03):
But how often how often do we disagree on something?
That's crazy? But but but we.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Always have different approaches and we always have different thoughts.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
But like it's interesting that that really drew you in
and that really like turned me off.

Speaker 3 (41:14):
Yeah, that's that's awesome. Though I'm glubly.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
We found that that's a really good way of trying
to describe the difference in what is, you know, what
was being in versus what draws you in.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, they're they're a band. I literally I tried to
like and I and I it repelled me actually, which
is super weird. And they they should be a band.
I like, you know, you know, like in theory, but uh,
I don't know, that's that's me.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yeah, well, it was nice being your co host. I
appreciate this time we spend together. Oh god, no, but no, Okay,
So I kind of feel like this is a good
a good place to end today. Not in a good
place to end our friendship, but in a end the episode. Now,
I think that's that's awesome, And I think I think

(41:59):
what I will say is, if you're listening to this,
if you're still listening to this, let us know, what
are some of the songs that you think have really
great uses of vocal space. You know, it doesn't have
to be reverb on the on, the on the whole,
doesn't have to be reverb specifically, but like, you know,
what are some examples of songs where you feel like
the vocals really just are done so perfectly well in
the mix, and maybe some examples of songs that you

(42:20):
really don't like how the vocals are treated.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, And I'm I'm gonna add a I know, I'm like,
I'm such a radiohead fan and it's like so obvious,
but I'm going to add a Radiohead song to the
to the list now, like exit music for a film
like that is the perfect space for a vocal to
live in. For me, I don't know, So I'm gonna
add it to our list. People couldn't have a listen
to what Ben likes and what Ben detests and what
Karl likes and probably also likes.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
I was gonna say.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
I was like, I'm like, I want to be spiteful
and I want to pretend that I don't love that
song and that.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
I nobody hates it, like you know, okay, computer, So
I can't. It's hard to hate it.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
I can't even sarcastically pretend to hate it. Yeah, but
I can sarcastically pretend to hate you and say and say, well,
you know what, you know what?

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Bye Ben?

Speaker 2 (43:06):
I was I was waiting for, like fuck you, goodbye,
fuck you goodbye.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
I mean bye, Carl, I mean I love you, bye,
love you.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Bye. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as
we did. If anything here resonated with you, please share
this or your favorite episode with a friend.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Vonner.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Until next time, Bye Ben.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Bye Carl. That was good. I think the outro is great.

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#251 - Context Context Context (Vocals Pt2)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#251 - Context Context Context (Vocals Pt2)