June 17, 2025 • 38 mins
What happens when a mixing engineer accidentally builds clients in 30 countries while living in Pennsylvania? Carl discovered that global currency differences and economic crashes might be the secret weapon most audio professionals are completely ignoring.
Discover:
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Discover:
- Why COVID permanently shifted the industry away from big city studios
- How global economic instability can actually stabilize a mixing engineer’s income
- How mixing engineers became accidental project managers for self-produced artists
- The math behind why international diversification beats local word-of-mouth
- When Carl recommends other engineers to look like a hero to their clients
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
No, No, you're awesome. I hope the wedding goes great tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Which wedding goes great tonight?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
One that you need? Jane gotcha.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Yeah, it's a bar mitzvah, it's not even wet.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to secret Sonics,
honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to help you
build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Let's get started, Hi, Ben, Hi Carl.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We are diving right into it as if we.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Haven't been speaking for I don't know, forty minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, we just spend a lot of time trying to
figure out what to talk about and then just going
on endless little side quests.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
That was just like a fraction of this conversation. But yes,
but that's also true. But how are you, Carl, to
see you good?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's good to see you too. It's good to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I want to start off by acknowledging two things number one,
I don't know three things Number one, Ben, I love you.
Number two. I said this before and I'll say it
again with your handheld microphone.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You've got wedding DJ doing sound check vibes, and I
stand by that.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I could get behind that.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yes, and I gotta make fun of myself too.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Number three.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Today's episode of Secret Sonics is brought to you by
manscaped because I'm actually just kidding, but specifically, I've been
like shaving my head for the past like I don't know,
maybe a year now, and I when I first started
doing it, I got this like cheap o like Phillips
head shaver thing and it sucks and it takes forever,
and I think I'm going to finally go and spend
money on like a real head shaver thing, which I
(01:43):
think that solidifies myself as a forty something dad. I
think I'm like officially like no turning back from this moment.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Wow, well congratulations, because getting to this moment is the
best outcome of all the outcomes, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I was thinking, I mean I could try to do
like the the Hulk Hogan and like just have the
top ball it and like keep some like horseshoe kind.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Of thing going.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
But yeah, the Einstein.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yes, I don't know if I'm gonna do that, but well, it's.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Not the Einstein, it's yeah, it's the bengori Ow and
it's the founder of the State of Israel. Looked like that.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, yeah, so not actually sponsored. I was just kind
of like hoping if I put that out into the world,
I would magically get a free head trimmer. But I
don't know why that would be a relevant I don't
think that'd be a good business choice by manscaped.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, this is the wrong topic of podcast for this
kind of sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Unless hold on, hear me out. What if we talk
about how the revision process makes us pull our hair out?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Oh this is a bit of a stretch, but maybe
we're not going to do that. I'll send this episode
around to some people. We'll see what happens. We'll see
what sticks.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Let's not do any of that. In reality we want
to talk about I believe. But we finally, after like
forty minutes of pre recording banter, I think we finally
figured out what we want to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes, I think so. I think we did a lot
of like technical mixing at episodes in a row, and
I think some of that stuff will continue in the future,
but I think let's break it up a little bit
and do something a little bit from the other side
of the spectrum. We were talking about the business side
of being a mixing engineer and how it's been changing,
and it's twenty twenty five. We did an episode about
(03:16):
a year ago about how being a mixing engineer is changing,
and I thought it'd be interesting to talk about how
the business of being a mixing engineer is changing. And
I think you have a lot of light to shed
on this, and I might have a little bit of
light to shed on this, but Carl, I'm going to
throw this to you. What's it like to be a
business owner that is a mixing engineer in twenty twenty
five and how has it evolved over the last little bit.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I think the elephant in the room for it is
the fact that the global economy is kind of taking
a dump.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Right now, you know. I think that's like the nice
way to put it.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And I think one of the big things that you know,
we're not really talking about enough in the audio space
is the fact that we all talk about how well
the budgets aren't like what they used to be. You know,
like kind of getting the old old man on the
lawn cursing at the clouds because people don't have four
hundred thousand dollars album budgets anymore. But I think realistically,
(04:12):
whenever we get through a point in the economy, whether
it's regional to your country or something that's more global,
a lot of the work gets harder to find.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
That's kind of like the reality of it. I mean
a lot of people saw this in twenty twenty when
COVID hit. The artists, you know, are not making as
much money or they're unsure about, you know, what's going
to be happening. So one of the first things that
I think a lot of people do, especially you know, artists,
one of the first things they're going to do is
we're going to try to save money. Hiring a mixing
(04:46):
engineers were probably going to be one of the first
things that they that they do to custom corners. And
I think we could talk about this in the way
that is like grumbly and cranky, or we could talk
about it in a way that is proactive and adapting.
And I want to take it that way. You know,
(05:06):
I'm not generally somebody that's going to say, ah, well
the situation sucks and then like that's the end of it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Like I yeah, I mean that's what I say, Carl.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
So that's why that's.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Why I needed to team up with you for this podcast,
because otherwise I was dead in the water.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, well that's why we worked so well together, Ben.
But I think the state of being a mixing engineer
in twenty twenty five, I think the writing's been on
the wall for a while that going remote is the
future of our industry. I believed that for a long time,
and then I just when COVID hit, obviously that shifted
(05:43):
a lot of things and pushed a lot of people
in that direction. I knew it was always going to
be an inevitability. I just didn't know how abruptly and
how universally you know that was going to be affecting
us when when COVID hit. So I think that there
are going to be some except to anything that I say.
I think that's a fair overall disclaimer, is that there's
(06:05):
always going to be an exception. But I think generally speaking,
if you want to be a mixing engineer in twenty
twenty five, I think not only do you need to
really try to go remote or at least find and
create a pipeline of clients that are remote, but also
that those remote clients need to be from a lot
(06:26):
of different parts of the world. And I think if
we look at it just purely from a financial standpoint,
like from a economics standpoint, you know, especially if you
live in an area that maybe doesn't have as high
a cost of living, but you can find artists that
do live in an area that has a higher cost
of living, you can be relative to what they're used to.
(06:50):
You could be a more cost effective option, but still
be making really good money compared to your expenses. So like, actually,
this is something that I thought was really interesting. And
don't quote me on the specific numbers here, but I
recently hired a virtual assistant on fiver to just do
some like data searching for me. It was literally something
(07:10):
where I was like hiring them to spend an hour
to like make a spreadsheet for me. And when I
was looking through and I'm like, how can I pay
somebody five dollars an hour to do this thing? Like
I felt genuinely guilty about it. And then I when
you go to the different like piper profiles. It shows
you like what country they're in. And then I was
doing the math and I was looking up the cost
(07:31):
of living for these different situations, and I realized that
the person that I had hired like five dollars an
hour where they live, it's like an equivalent buying power
to like fifty something an hour here, because like the
cost of living was so much less, like the cost
of you know, average rent was like ninety three percent
lower than the average cost of living like here. So like,
(07:54):
and I was like, oh, like the same thoughts that
I have when I'm working with artists in la in
Nashville and New York and London, even though I'm in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Like that's why there are so many people in places
like the Philippines and like all these other other countries
that yeah, can do stuff for praises that seem crazy
low to us, but because of the buying power difference,
(08:16):
like it's actually it can be very lucrative for them.
And I think we as mixing engineers need to kind
of like think of ourselves in that same way. Now,
I'm not saying go on fiber. That's not at all
the point, right, because then you're competing against somebody that
can do a mix for twenty dollars and it's buying
(08:36):
their groceries for three months. Right, It's just like a
different playing field. But what I am saying is that
because of myself, like I think, I say, like most
of my clients.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I think are international, really and.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
This is between you know, like mixing and like the
education stuff that I do as well, Like I very
intentionally try to spread out where my clients are from
so that if something happens economically, I'm not at the
mercy of the US dollar or I'm not at the
(09:09):
mercy of the pound or the euro. Right, And sometimes
it works in my advantage, sometimes it works against me
kind of just depending on situation in those different countries.
But it seems to have more or less kind of
kind of averages out a bit more, and it makes
it makes it feel less volatile, even though like when paper,
there is more variation because there's more moving parts because
(09:32):
there's artists in like thirty some different countries that I've
worked with, so like, yeah, there's a bunch of different variables,
but overall it seems to be a little bit more
steady because I'm not just relying on well, what's the
current value of the dollar, you know, what's inflation like
here in the States versus the world.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So nerdy, but I totally resonate with that, and like, yeah,
it is crazy. We're also living in a time of
political upheaval where everything is anything could happen in any
country based at this point, and like anything could tank,
and like, you know, somebody who who's most of his
business was local my music business tanked in twenty twenty
(10:09):
three for very obvious reasons and it hasn't recovered. And
that's because you know, of what's been happening over here
and the fact that I haven't diversified internationally, but it
could happen anywhere, and like, you know, times have shown us,
and like I don't want to be dark, but times
have shown us that like things could happen anywhere at
any time, and diversifying is a good way to have
(10:31):
a cushion, right, So if like, yeah, like people are
like buying gold now, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, yeah, And that's that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
It's like, if you're at the mercy of your I
don't want to say local economy, I guess like local
relative to like the rest of the world. Yeah, but like,
if you're suck with that, like, but it's easier for
your clients, it's easier for you. If it's harder for
your clients, it's harder for you. But I feel like
the approach of trying to diversify where your clients come
(10:58):
from can really be that balancing factor. And I think
this is especially true for somebody like myself and for
people that maybe live in much smaller markets. I have
a couple of students of mine that live in Brazil,
and like, again, like the buying power of one hundred
US dollars is crazy compared to what a lot of
(11:20):
the other local Brazilian artists can can pay for. And
also because of the fact that I don't want to
like get into a conversation about, you know, the americanization
of like the business world and how so many countries
speak English. But the thing too is that a lot
of these artists that I work with, a lot of
the producers and engineers that I work with, like they're
(11:41):
even they speak English as a second language way better
than that I speak English as a first language a
lot of times, you.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Know, especially if they're from Northern Europe. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, so if you live in a country like Brazil
or Argentina or I would even say maybe like like
Italy or German, you can get clients from you know,
other countries, other big cities, and it actually really really
really works to your advantage, you know, and if you're
used to living in a country that you know doesn't
(12:13):
have the same buying power as like the US, or
if you live in a country that doesn't have you know,
a ton of buying power, but you can express yourself
and communicate with and like attract people from people that
live in a higher cost of living area. Then I
don't want to say you don't have to work as hard,
but like you don't need to do as many projects
to crush it and you know, really have a sustainable career.
(12:36):
I don't know, I could, I could rant about this
all day, but I just think it's very global. Economics
plays a much bigger role in my life as a
mixing engineer than I ever would have imagined, you know,
not even like five years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, I think before COVID, these things didn't really feel
like a thing, you know, just like it was business
as usual forever and ever or never, but it's it's
just been like the post World War two economy that
we were used to until until around then, but now
things are We're in a different time, so we have
to be more adaptable, and definitely diversifying where you get
(13:13):
artists to work with from is definitely one way to
do that. So that's that's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And it enables people that live in a higher cost
of living area to move outside of the city if
they want to. Like I talked to a lot of
people in the industry that have been in LA for
twenty or thirty years, and you know, they've been thinking
about moving away for a while, and it's like you
(13:38):
can now, like it's a big mental shift to take
that leap of Okay, I'm going to stop relying on
word of mouth. I'm going to stop relying on my
local network here that I've spent thirty years building, which
is a stressful thing to do to like stop relying
on the thing that you've been relying on for twenty
or thirty years, right, Like it's a big life change,
(13:59):
you know, I don't want I want to make sure
that if you've been thinking about this and you've been
like stressed about making that big life change. Like I
want to make sure that you feel like understood right now,
because like it's a big fucking deal.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It's hard to do.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
But for somebody that you know, if you're paying crazy rent,
not just for your place but also over like a
separate studio and the rent is ridiculous, and like the
general cost of living is ridiculous and it's only getting worse.
But then you're realizing that there's you know, you moved
there because that's where all the work was, and now
(14:28):
the work is I don't want to say like literally anywhere,
but there's lots and lots and lots of work outside
of those major music cities. And especially if you have
a service and like an approach to what you do
that you can do things remotely, then yeah, as long
as you have Wi Fi, you know, I mean, as
long as you have internet and phone service, like go
(14:49):
live in the mountains, go go living a farm, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
But I do want to like push back a little
bit because I do think that making that shift, although
it does sound attractive the way you're pitching it now,
there's a lot of other things that have to get done,
and you have to change your mindset of how you're
doing business, and you have to start doing outreach in
a different way, and you have to start connecting with
people online and not just in person. I think we're
(15:12):
also in an era where people are trying to get
burnt out with like social media, and like i think
we're past the peak of people enjoying using social media
to connect with other people. And so there's like a
lot of I'm just saying, it's not necessarily smooth sailing
you do. There's gonna be a lot of work that
you're gonna have to put in if you want to
take that kind of approach. That's not what you've been
used to doing. If you've been living in like a
(15:32):
New York or in la or in Nashville or whatever, London, Yeah,
it's just a totally different I've never done that. I've
always been a sort of an out like I mean,
I'm from New York, but since I've been living in Jerusalem,
I've been a business owner out of town so to speak,
this whole time. I don't have experience with that. And
I think also I think people that move to places
like La they go there for the community and they
(15:55):
make those connections in real life, and that definitely jump
starts a career. And the question is how do you
shift that? And I think it's doable, but it's it's
not necessarily easy.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Oh, that absolutely obvious. But I want to kind of clarify.
It's like, I'm not saying it's easy to do this.
I'm just saying a couple of years ago, as recently
as a couple of years ago, it wasn't possible. Yeah,
you know, you had like a very very very small
handful of exceptions. Like I think like Servan lives in
like Virginia Beach or somewhere, you know what I mean.
But like there's like a small handful of people that
(16:27):
can live outside of a major city, you know. But
then you have to be like your destination and you
have to already have a ridiculous career and network already
built up.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that it's more
attainable than it was even just a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yes, but you have to be really intentional about it.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You have to be intentional.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, it's not going to just be like, okayoop, I'm
going to go remote. At the same time, though, if
you've been doing it for a long time in a
big city, Like if you just do the math and
look at like what your monthly expenses would be if
you did move somewhere that you're going to be a
little bit happier. Like you don't need as many clients,
you don't need as big of a budget of projects
because your expenses are going to be so much lower.
(17:09):
That's the thing I want to you have to like
take into consideration, like when you're doing the math about it,
because like if I'm just pulling a number out of
my butt, but let's say you need like bare minimum,
you need to make six thousand dollars a year or
starting year a month, it seemed like six thousand dollars
a month to like pay for everything just to like
get by in a big city. But then you do
(17:31):
the math and you realize, oh, to have like the
same kind of like quality of life and the same things,
but like living in a even like a little bit
outside of the city, and it's like, oh, I only
need like forty five hundred per month to like get
by or whatever. This I'm obviously these are just like
example numbers I'm just pulling out. But it's like The
whole point is lowering the bare minimum you need to
(17:52):
survive so that when you do make that move, like,
you don't need as many clients to be able to
like get by. And then obviously the goal is to
then keep on getting more and more. But it allows
you to be a little bit pickier. It allows you
to have that like breathing room to be intentional. I
think that's the benefit of it. It's a lot of
(18:13):
fucking hard work, but I believe it is worth the
hard work if that is what you want. If I'm
not saying you should move out of a big city,
I'm not like, if you're there, you're doing second person
and like you're like a tracking engineer and you love
working with artists. It is like that that is the hub. Still, Yeah,
then don't go remote.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Like I'm not saying I think it's all it's all
hard work. It's just a matter of choosing which hard
work you're going to do and being smart about how
you strategize doing that hard work.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
You know, because you can spend that time thinking about
how to change your approach, or you can spend that
time thinking about.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Where the next gig's coming from.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, the only difference is one's proactive and one's you
know you're at you're at the mercy of word of mouth. Again,
not advocating that everybody leaves big cities if you live there,
if you love it there. I'm just saying, like, for
those of you that do live in a big city
and you're thinking about, you know, if you've been thinking
about wanting to get out, it's possible. It's not easy,
but it's way more possible than it ever was before.
(19:08):
And if you do live in like a smaller city,
you don't need to move to a big city to
really build something great. You know, I never lived in
a major music city. The closest was Philly, which is
not a major music city.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Who was in the seventies, by the way, but that's not.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
In my in my in my time. I'm not that old, Ben.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Just bring it full circle here, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I look great for a seventy five year old man.
But but realistically, like closest to like a music city
I ever lived in was in Philly, and even then,
except for like six months right out of college, I've
always lived out in the suburbs anyway, Like I lived
in like West Philly for like six months or something
and that was it. Otherwise I was like a half
hour out, so I was like in the suburbs of
(19:51):
a non music city, you know, and getting started during
a recession.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It's like, really what I started doing going full time?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
That's millennious.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, so it's not easy, but it's doable. There are
more people doing it than you realize. One of the
things I've noticed over the past twenty years being in
the industry is that audio school usually leaves most graduates
completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure, you
learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep, but
they probably won't teach you how to stand out and
attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion for recording,
(20:22):
appreciate what you bring to the table, let alone pay
their rates you want to get paid. And YouTube university
is full of people telling you that their way is
the right way, and it doesn't help you apply things
to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients. So I've
been building studio Land to fill those gaps. We use
structured learning paths, weekly live classes in a private community
of other pros to help you discover how to turn
(20:44):
your technical expertise into a thriving business that attracts the
right clients at the right rates.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Try it out for free the links in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Besides from like location and diversification, what else can we
talk about in terms of like being a business own
or that is a mixing engineer in twenty twenty five?
Like are we billing per song or billing per hour?
Obviously not? Oh, but what's included? How do you pitch it?
That's something that I want to ask you about.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, I mean, like the only thing that I've seen
that really has changed over the past couple of years
is just the ease of delivering things. Printing mix stems
is easier, doing alternate versions is easier. Computers are getting faster,
so they're doing stuff faster, Like storage space is getting cheaper,
Internet's getting faster, so like those things are getting better.
(21:32):
But like, you know, the actual process, I really feel
like it's it hasn't really changed much for me, billing wise,
you can have different ways of doing it. For me,
it's always per song or per project. You know, it's
always going to be that because I tend to take
the approach of if it's something that the artist is
in control of how long it takes, like tracking or
(21:54):
even let's say like vocal editing. It could be one layer,
it could be forty five layers. It could just need
like three notes.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Totally yeah, well sung, or it could be a piece
of a shit sandwich that that needs a special love.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, I was I was trying to be a little
bit more like I was looking for I was looking
for euphemisms and I couldn't find it. And you took
that moment to just say a shit sandwich. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I've probably asked you this. Have you seen Spidal Tap.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So, yes, but it probably not since high school.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
One of their records is called Shark Sandwich and the
review is a shit sandwich. I think it's the very
beginning of the of the movie. Yeah, I need to
watch that again. It's been way too same, same. But yeah,
so we're at the mercy of the artist in me.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So when it's a mercy of the artist, then it's hourly,
which also kind of incentivizes them to make decisions. But
when it's something that I'm you know, more or less
in charge of how long it takes, like mixing or
master ring, or like something like drum production or something like,
I just do a flat rate because I know how.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Long I'm going to take on things.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And then that way, if I choose to go down
rabbit holes, I'm not charging the artist for me to
be chasing out for something. But also then I'm not
doing work for free when the artist is the one
going down rabbit holes.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Because yeah, exactly, I have a very similar philosophy. I
frame it a little bit differently, but it's sort of like,
if I'm going for my best work, my one hundred percent,
I'm gonna charge you my full rate, and it's gonna
be just a flat fee for the song. Right, So
whether it's a production or a mix, and I'm gonna
just do the best I can and it's probably gonna
(23:28):
be my usual thing and then you're gonna love it,
or maybe you need some revisions and that's okay. Now,
if it's something that it's not that and I just
don't know what the scope is. If the scope is
not my best thing, it's gonna be an hourly rate
because otherwise there's no other way to cut corners. Like
I can't give you a demo rate because I'm always
gonna want to make it better, and you're always going
(23:50):
to want it to be better for whatever rate, So
like this is stupid. It's just gonna build hourly and
the time is going to dictate how corners get cut.
So yeah, that's sort of my like my thought process.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So just so I can make sure I'm really following,
like what is the threshold that makes you decide.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Basically what the artist is looking to accomplish. Are they
looking to just make a stellar production or a stellar mix,
or if they're trying to do something that's like, you know,
on a budget, and I need to get something out
and I don't necessarily need this to be the greatest
thing of all time, but I do need to. I
do want to express myself somehow. So it's like, okay,
this is going to be an hourly thing. You could
(24:26):
probably fight me on this. I could quote maybe a
mix rate and then like an hourly recording rate potentially,
but it's not unless if we're going all the way,
then we're going all the way and I'm trudging my
rate and we're going to just work really hard and
it's spot going to be easy. If it's not that,
then yeah, hourly rate it is.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I don't think I'm gonna fight you in that.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I'm like, thinking about it now, I've never really thought
about it that way, where it's something that if you
have the total buy in, you know, everybody's in it together,
we're just going to like this as great as we can,
and you do it as a flat rate awesome. And
then it's if like the budget's smaller or like it
seems like they're When I say the quality of their vision,
I don't mean like whether you like it or not.
(25:05):
I mean more like the clarity of their vision. I
guess the quality of the clarity of the vision. If
it seems like they don't really even know what they
want and you're going to have to do some exploration,
you know, then yeah, doing it hourly makes sense. And
I guess like when you're you're saying about it being
something where they don't necessarily want it to be the best,
I guess, like, what was that conversation, Like, I'm kind
(25:28):
of curious edit out.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I'll give you like an example. It's just like a
longtime artist client that I've worked with says, I have
this song that I made with a friend and they
made it on garage band, and they want to come
over and mix it, but they're not going to, like,
they don't have budget for a full mix, So can
we just do two hours in studio and you'll do
the best you can with it. That would be like
(25:50):
an obvious hourly rate thing, you know. I mean they're
asking for hourly time, but they're they're saying like, we
don't have a lot of budget, but we know what
you're what you take, and about two hours is what
we're willing to do. Yes, So it's just like trust you,
so let's just do the best we can with that.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yes, it's just like hour to most.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, doing the most we can with the time and
the budget they have. And I probably wouldn't take a
project like that on with a new client, but I
will with an old you know client who you know,
we have a relationship with.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
That makes sense, Yeah, I don't know, Well that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, And I think that's also something where you know,
for me, like I would still think that for myself
doing it is hourly because it's something where they're like
they're in charge of how long something's going to take,
and in that case, they're like, oh no, I want
to do two hours exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
They told me it's two hours. There's more examples where
it's like less obvious how many hours it's going to take,
but it's like I don't really know what you're trying
to do exactly, but we're going to just bill hourly
and see what comes out of this.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
So I guess like to kind of circle back to
the you know, what's changing for mix engineers, I feel
like in that sense, like for the stuff that you're
talking about now, that's kind of like when mixing is
in a way like kind of lumped into the same
scope as something else, and.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It's yeah, that does happen, even if ideally it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I have done the hybrid where it's like I don't
know what we're doing, and I'm going to bill you
hourly and then like okay, I'm going to give you
like a mixing rate to actually mix this and make
it sound as good as possible. Yeah, or like my
mixing rate will maybe include some hours of recording but
not all necessarily the hours, Like I've done that too,
of like hey, like I don't know where this is
going or what quality you want, but I need to
(27:22):
charge you my mixing rate, and I'm going to lump
in a few hours of recording and then any more
than that we'll just do hourly.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yeah, and that's sort of like a hybrid.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, as long as it's clear what it does and
doesn't include, then.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
But yeah, the other thing that I wanted to say
personally about, like what I'm including in my mix rate
now which I didn't always do, is the mastering. And
that's like if I'm doing like the full on master.
So if I quote somebody my full rate for a mix,
it'll include a master with a mastering engineer and that's
just like included, And if they have their own mastering engineer,
then we'll talk about reducing the fee maybe, you know,
because I'm most comfortable working with my mastering engineer and
(27:57):
I'm most comfortable having a real master and not full
mastering it myself. And I found that that's just like
the best way to get the best quality and to
just include it and then they know what they're paying
for and they know they don't have to also pay
for mastering and it's just kind of lumped in there,
you know. That was like another thing that I just
wanted to know. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know
if you do that yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Usually I do it like well, for me, it's it
depends on the song and the artist. And if it's
something that I feel like me doing the mastering is
going to be an integral part of the overall sound,
then I'm going to do it. And I feel very
confident doing it, and I really enjoy doing it when
it's a song that is I don't want to say
like out of my wheelhouse mastering wise, but like it
(28:38):
was something where the master here's a better way of
saying it. If the master is a part of the production.
And I think some styles of music the master is
part of the production, like a lot of electronic music,
like that the thickness of it and that the intensity
of that, that's just like a part of the sound.
In that case, like I'm doing it because that's all one,
one big part. Other styles of music, the mastering is
(29:02):
meant to like be a transparent quality control, like fixing
any little things that may have like snuck through and
just polishing it. I think that's when I will get
somebody else to do it, like because I'm not good
at like the polishing. I'm not good at polishing my
own mixes, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
But when it's something they're already polished.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Bro ah shucks. No.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
But but but seriously, like, if it's a song that
needs that, I go to somebody else. If it's a
song where you know, the line between production, mixing and
mastering is so blurry that it's just kind of like
one big blob. I don't know why lines would would
evolve from a straight line into a blurry line into
a blob.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
But whatever, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Okay, I'm not I'm not I'm not Charles Darwin, don't
don't don't not be bro That that's really what what
makes the choice for me. And I'll usually still include
the price when I give them the quote either way,
and sometimes with the artist, i'll tell them that, you know,
either I'll do the mastering or I'll have so and
so do the mastering. The price will be the same
(30:05):
for you. You're still going to pay me anyway, and
I'll pay them out of the budget. I'll handle all
of that stuff. It's just a question of when we
get to the end stage. It's like, if I feel
like I'm going to be the best fit for this
particular song, I'm.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Going to do it, and then you're paying yourself as
the mastering end.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, and then if I think that they're gonna be
the best hit for it, I'm going to have them
do it. The rates the same regardless. So it's not
a skill thing, it's not a quality thing. It's a
taste thing and a who's a better fit for this particular.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
This is an important point. Knowing how and when to
delegate the tasks that you've been allocated budget for is
a very big picture part of like the mixing business
and saying like, Okay, I can tune this vocal, but
I could also pay someone else and like save myself
two hours to start another mix and get that off
my plate and also employ somebody else, and kind of
(30:56):
thinking big picture about that kind of stuff is been
a game changer for me, and I know it's been
a game changer for you. And also in like my
other business of podcast work, just delegating leads me to
be able to expand my team and increase revenue. So like,
just thinking with that big picture mind is huge and
like and sometimes you got to do it yourself and
makes the most sense, you know, and like it sounds
(31:18):
to me like maybe even like projects are sort of
maybe trending in that direction for you of like used
to delegate more mastering and now you're taking more of
it on yourself than you used to. But that's still
a big picture decision, and you're very comfortable, I know
you are very Carl specifically, are very comfortable delegating that
stuff when it's appropriate and makes sense. And that's like
a very I think that's like a really important thing
(31:38):
to think about as you run your business as a
mixing engineer.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, you know, that brings up this idea for me too,
that a lot of times now mixing engineers have to
take on the responsibilities that would have traditionally been the
producer's responsibilities, you know, especially for somebody like myself that
works with a lot of left of center pop adjacent
styles where a lot of my artist clients are self produced,
(32:04):
so like typically if there was a producer on the project,
the producer would be the one kind of like managing
it all and finding the right people and deciding who's
going to be or at least recommending who's gonna do
the mix and you know, recommending who's can do the
master or like they're the ones asking the mixing engineer
who should do the master and like you know, they're
the ones kind of making those decisions or at least
like getting insight to be able to make those decisions
(32:24):
for the artist. And I think now for myself, when
I'm working with a lot of self produced artists, I
as a mixing engineer of kind of taking on some
of those aspects that are kind of like traditionally what producer,
like an old school producer would have done, where it's
like you're the big picture, like you know, dot connector
of people and kind of making those those decisions and
(32:44):
it's not like a paid service, you know what I mean.
Like that's that's kind of like the weird go into
like the whole like you know, well Rick Rubin doesn't produce,
but he does produce, and like it's that whole argument
of like people thinking, well that's not production if he's
not you know, setting up microphones, but like he's making
way more, way better music than you are, you know,
not you bet, I mean, like the cranky people talking
(33:05):
about that for sure. And it's like that element of
trying to be the like the musical matchmaker. It's like
that's part of being a mixing engineer for me at least,
you know, and I think for a lot of other
a lot of other people too.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, I mean this happens more when I'm technically the
producer than when i'm the mixer, but also when i'm
the mixer, you know, I'll be like, oh, yeah, there's
an album I'm thinking about where I was like, oh,
you need a vocal editor, let me send you someone
Lucas's number.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, and like friend of the show Lucas Gito.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
And then the artist I was working with was super
happy with his work and it made my job as
the mixing engineer way easier. So that was great, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
And it builds the artists trust in you because.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yes, you exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
You don't have to be the one to like like
your mouse clicks, don't have to be the one that
saves the day. But like the fact that you brought
in the person like you were the one who like
you knew a guy I came in and like knocked
out of the park. Yeah, that makes you look like
a Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
So like Lucas did the editing and he was super
happy with that, and Connor did the mastering and he
was super happy with that. And I made both of
those matchmaking moments happen and it was it was great,
you know, And that's that's what's about that. I actually
love doing that. I love I love being a connector.
My wife and I have never set anybody up romantically,
but we're we make a lot of friend setups. It
(34:21):
seems to be one of our special powers. So like
I like to do that also in the music industry.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, which which which makes sense, and it makes sense
while you're really bad at or not bad at, but
like while you don't do like romantic match.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Me, we're bad at. We're bad at romantic matchmaking. We're
good at friendship match making.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, well, I mean that's because that's what you've been
doing your whole career. As that's what we do as Yeah,
as as audio people, you know, like whether we're doing
it in an official capacity or not, like we're if
nothing else, we're always thinking about it. We're always thinking about, oh, like, oh,
this person's awesome, Like you guys would work together, like
you should meet like well you you artists, like oh
you like you need to meet this other artist that's
(34:57):
in your city because they're really cool, or like oh
have you played a show with them yet? Because they'd
be it's a fun night. You know, We're always doing that.
So I don't think that even though this is a
new I don't want to say, like a new responsibility
for a lot of mixing engineers. Now, it's not a
new skill set at least, you know, it's just you know,
(35:18):
mixing engineers twenty years ago usually weren't the ones recommending
vocal editors.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
But right exactly, you know, now we get asked.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
But the good thing is we know some like we
know who you like, or at least like we know
somebody who would know somebody. And also knowing that that
vocal editor can be remote. They don't have to be
in your city either, Like.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
It's totally I forget if Lucas is also in Lancaster
or somewhere nearby, but like, you know, the artist is
in New Jersey, the vocal editors in Pennsylvania. I'm in Jerusalem,
and the mastering engineers in Toronto, and oh yeah, there
you go. That was and that's like becoming so typical, right.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, well like that's why to me, like working remotely
with artists from all over the world has been completely
like I've become numb to it. Because there was a
time I remember, like this is maybe twenty eighteen or
twenty nineteen, where I was doing projects where it was
like the artist was from Spain, the producer was in
the UK, I was in the US, my assistant was
(36:17):
in Canada, and mastering engineers in Australia, and like that
was just like a typical Tuesday. You know, it's weird
how unwird it becomes too. I think it's a very similar.
It's a different mental shift of deciding to go more
remote and to start like approaching your business as a
(36:37):
remote business. It's a different type of like mental shift
than going from full stack, top to bottom production into
like delegating out mastering or delegating out mixing or editing
or whatever. It's a different mental shift, but it's if
you've done one, you know you've been through that tough
shift before, you've been through a big fundamental change in
(36:59):
how you run your business, and you've survived, and you've
made it to the other side, and you've realized how
much more you enjoy not having to do vocal editing,
not having to worry about checking the master in seventeen
different places whatever. The part is that you were like
the least excited about. You've seen how good it feels
to get that off your plate, so you've seen that
(37:20):
it's worth it to make those changes.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, totally, well, Carl, I think this is a great
place to wrap up, also because its getting late. But
that was that was a great rant and this episode
really covered a lot of things. Surprised at how deep
and wide it went. So yeah, yeah, this is good. Yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I'm glad I and I'm glad we made an episode
after spending forty minutes blabbering blabbering and not actually recording anything. No, No,
you're awesome. I hope the wedding goes great tonight.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Which wedding goes great tonight?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
You're Jane?
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, it's a bar mitzvah. It's not even.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Okay, that stakes her a lot lower.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Anyways, Carl, this has been fun, and I'll see you
after the bar mitzvah. We'll touch base.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Muzzletop Ben, Thank you, bye.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Bye, Carl. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much
as we did. If anything here resonated with you, please
share this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
At Ben Wallace Music and at Carl Bonner.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
No, No, you're awesome. I hope the wedding goes great tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Which wedding goes great tonight?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
One that you need? Jane gotcha.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Yeah, it's a bar mitzvah, it's not even wet.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to secret Sonics,
honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to help you
build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Let's get started, Hi, Ben, Hi Carl.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We are diving right into it as if we.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Haven't been speaking for I don't know, forty minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, we just spend a lot of time trying to
figure out what to talk about and then just going
on endless little side quests.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
That was just like a fraction of this conversation. But yes,
but that's also true. But how are you, Carl, to
see you good?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's good to see you too. It's good to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I want to start off by acknowledging two things number one,
I don't know three things Number one, Ben, I love you.
Number two. I said this before and I'll say it
again with your handheld microphone.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You've got wedding DJ doing sound check vibes, and I
stand by that.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I could get behind that.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yes, and I gotta make fun of myself too.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Number three.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Today's episode of Secret Sonics is brought to you by
manscaped because I'm actually just kidding, but specifically, I've been
like shaving my head for the past like I don't know,
maybe a year now, and I when I first started
doing it, I got this like cheap o like Phillips
head shaver thing and it sucks and it takes forever,
and I think I'm going to finally go and spend
money on like a real head shaver thing, which I
(01:43):
think that solidifies myself as a forty something dad. I
think I'm like officially like no turning back from this moment.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Wow, well congratulations, because getting to this moment is the
best outcome of all the outcomes, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I was thinking, I mean I could try to do
like the the Hulk Hogan and like just have the
top ball it and like keep some like horseshoe kind.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Of thing going.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
But yeah, the Einstein.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yes, I don't know if I'm gonna do that, but well, it's.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Not the Einstein, it's yeah, it's the bengori Ow and
it's the founder of the State of Israel. Looked like that.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, yeah, so not actually sponsored. I was just kind
of like hoping if I put that out into the world,
I would magically get a free head trimmer. But I
don't know why that would be a relevant I don't
think that'd be a good business choice by manscaped.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, this is the wrong topic of podcast for this
kind of sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Unless hold on, hear me out. What if we talk
about how the revision process makes us pull our hair out?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Oh this is a bit of a stretch, but maybe
we're not going to do that. I'll send this episode
around to some people. We'll see what happens. We'll see
what sticks.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Let's not do any of that. In reality we want
to talk about I believe. But we finally, after like
forty minutes of pre recording banter, I think we finally
figured out what we want to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes, I think so. I think we did a lot
of like technical mixing at episodes in a row, and
I think some of that stuff will continue in the future,
but I think let's break it up a little bit
and do something a little bit from the other side
of the spectrum. We were talking about the business side
of being a mixing engineer and how it's been changing,
and it's twenty twenty five. We did an episode about
(03:16):
a year ago about how being a mixing engineer is changing,
and I thought it'd be interesting to talk about how
the business of being a mixing engineer is changing. And
I think you have a lot of light to shed
on this, and I might have a little bit of
light to shed on this, but Carl, I'm going to
throw this to you. What's it like to be a
business owner that is a mixing engineer in twenty twenty
five and how has it evolved over the last little bit.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I think the elephant in the room for it is
the fact that the global economy is kind of taking
a dump.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Right now, you know. I think that's like the nice
way to put it.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And I think one of the big things that you know,
we're not really talking about enough in the audio space
is the fact that we all talk about how well
the budgets aren't like what they used to be. You know,
like kind of getting the old old man on the
lawn cursing at the clouds because people don't have four
hundred thousand dollars album budgets anymore. But I think realistically,
(04:12):
whenever we get through a point in the economy, whether
it's regional to your country or something that's more global,
a lot of the work gets harder to find.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
That's kind of like the reality of it. I mean
a lot of people saw this in twenty twenty when
COVID hit. The artists, you know, are not making as
much money or they're unsure about, you know, what's going
to be happening. So one of the first things that
I think a lot of people do, especially you know, artists,
one of the first things they're going to do is
we're going to try to save money. Hiring a mixing
(04:46):
engineers were probably going to be one of the first
things that they that they do to custom corners. And
I think we could talk about this in the way
that is like grumbly and cranky, or we could talk
about it in a way that is proactive and adapting.
And I want to take it that way. You know,
(05:06):
I'm not generally somebody that's going to say, ah, well
the situation sucks and then like that's the end of it.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Like I yeah, I mean that's what I say, Carl.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
So that's why that's.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Why I needed to team up with you for this podcast,
because otherwise I was dead in the water.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, well that's why we worked so well together, Ben.
But I think the state of being a mixing engineer
in twenty twenty five, I think the writing's been on
the wall for a while that going remote is the
future of our industry. I believed that for a long time,
and then I just when COVID hit, obviously that shifted
(05:43):
a lot of things and pushed a lot of people
in that direction. I knew it was always going to
be an inevitability. I just didn't know how abruptly and
how universally you know that was going to be affecting
us when when COVID hit. So I think that there
are going to be some except to anything that I say.
I think that's a fair overall disclaimer, is that there's
(06:05):
always going to be an exception. But I think generally speaking,
if you want to be a mixing engineer in twenty
twenty five, I think not only do you need to
really try to go remote or at least find and
create a pipeline of clients that are remote, but also
that those remote clients need to be from a lot
(06:26):
of different parts of the world. And I think if
we look at it just purely from a financial standpoint,
like from a economics standpoint, you know, especially if you
live in an area that maybe doesn't have as high
a cost of living, but you can find artists that
do live in an area that has a higher cost
of living, you can be relative to what they're used to.
(06:50):
You could be a more cost effective option, but still
be making really good money compared to your expenses. So like, actually,
this is something that I thought was really interesting. And
don't quote me on the specific numbers here, but I
recently hired a virtual assistant on fiver to just do
some like data searching for me. It was literally something
(07:10):
where I was like hiring them to spend an hour
to like make a spreadsheet for me. And when I
was looking through and I'm like, how can I pay
somebody five dollars an hour to do this thing? Like
I felt genuinely guilty about it. And then I when
you go to the different like piper profiles. It shows
you like what country they're in. And then I was
doing the math and I was looking up the cost
(07:31):
of living for these different situations, and I realized that
the person that I had hired like five dollars an
hour where they live, it's like an equivalent buying power
to like fifty something an hour here, because like the
cost of living was so much less, like the cost
of you know, average rent was like ninety three percent
lower than the average cost of living like here. So like,
(07:54):
and I was like, oh, like the same thoughts that
I have when I'm working with artists in la in
Nashville and New York and London, even though I'm in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Like that's why there are so many people in places
like the Philippines and like all these other other countries
that yeah, can do stuff for praises that seem crazy
low to us, but because of the buying power difference,
(08:16):
like it's actually it can be very lucrative for them.
And I think we as mixing engineers need to kind
of like think of ourselves in that same way. Now,
I'm not saying go on fiber. That's not at all
the point, right, because then you're competing against somebody that
can do a mix for twenty dollars and it's buying
(08:36):
their groceries for three months. Right, It's just like a
different playing field. But what I am saying is that
because of myself, like I think, I say, like most
of my clients.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I think are international, really and.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
This is between you know, like mixing and like the
education stuff that I do as well, Like I very
intentionally try to spread out where my clients are from
so that if something happens economically, I'm not at the
mercy of the US dollar or I'm not at the
(09:09):
mercy of the pound or the euro. Right, And sometimes
it works in my advantage, sometimes it works against me
kind of just depending on situation in those different countries.
But it seems to have more or less kind of
kind of averages out a bit more, and it makes
it makes it feel less volatile, even though like when paper,
there is more variation because there's more moving parts because
(09:32):
there's artists in like thirty some different countries that I've
worked with, so like, yeah, there's a bunch of different variables,
but overall it seems to be a little bit more
steady because I'm not just relying on well, what's the
current value of the dollar, you know, what's inflation like
here in the States versus the world.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So nerdy, but I totally resonate with that, and like, yeah,
it is crazy. We're also living in a time of
political upheaval where everything is anything could happen in any
country based at this point, and like anything could tank,
and like, you know, somebody who who's most of his
business was local my music business tanked in twenty twenty
(10:09):
three for very obvious reasons and it hasn't recovered. And
that's because you know, of what's been happening over here
and the fact that I haven't diversified internationally, but it
could happen anywhere, and like, you know, times have shown us,
and like I don't want to be dark, but times
have shown us that like things could happen anywhere at
any time, and diversifying is a good way to have
(10:31):
a cushion, right, So if like, yeah, like people are
like buying gold now, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, yeah, And that's that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
It's like, if you're at the mercy of your I
don't want to say local economy, I guess like local
relative to like the rest of the world. Yeah, but like,
if you're suck with that, like, but it's easier for
your clients, it's easier for you. If it's harder for
your clients, it's harder for you. But I feel like
the approach of trying to diversify where your clients come
(10:58):
from can really be that balancing factor. And I think
this is especially true for somebody like myself and for
people that maybe live in much smaller markets. I have
a couple of students of mine that live in Brazil,
and like, again, like the buying power of one hundred
US dollars is crazy compared to what a lot of
(11:20):
the other local Brazilian artists can can pay for. And
also because of the fact that I don't want to
like get into a conversation about, you know, the americanization
of like the business world and how so many countries
speak English. But the thing too is that a lot
of these artists that I work with, a lot of
the producers and engineers that I work with, like they're
(11:41):
even they speak English as a second language way better
than that I speak English as a first language a
lot of times, you.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Know, especially if they're from Northern Europe. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, so if you live in a country like Brazil
or Argentina or I would even say maybe like like
Italy or German, you can get clients from you know,
other countries, other big cities, and it actually really really
really works to your advantage, you know, and if you're
used to living in a country that you know doesn't
(12:13):
have the same buying power as like the US, or
if you live in a country that doesn't have you know,
a ton of buying power, but you can express yourself
and communicate with and like attract people from people that
live in a higher cost of living area. Then I
don't want to say you don't have to work as hard,
but like you don't need to do as many projects
to crush it and you know, really have a sustainable career.
(12:36):
I don't know, I could, I could rant about this
all day, but I just think it's very global. Economics
plays a much bigger role in my life as a
mixing engineer than I ever would have imagined, you know,
not even like five years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, I think before COVID, these things didn't really feel
like a thing, you know, just like it was business
as usual forever and ever or never, but it's it's
just been like the post World War two economy that
we were used to until until around then, but now
things are We're in a different time, so we have
to be more adaptable, and definitely diversifying where you get
(13:13):
artists to work with from is definitely one way to
do that. So that's that's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And it enables people that live in a higher cost
of living area to move outside of the city if
they want to. Like I talked to a lot of
people in the industry that have been in LA for
twenty or thirty years, and you know, they've been thinking
about moving away for a while, and it's like you
(13:38):
can now, like it's a big mental shift to take
that leap of Okay, I'm going to stop relying on
word of mouth. I'm going to stop relying on my
local network here that I've spent thirty years building, which
is a stressful thing to do to like stop relying
on the thing that you've been relying on for twenty
or thirty years, right, Like it's a big life change,
(13:59):
you know, I don't want I want to make sure
that if you've been thinking about this and you've been
like stressed about making that big life change. Like I
want to make sure that you feel like understood right now,
because like it's a big fucking deal.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It's hard to do.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
But for somebody that you know, if you're paying crazy rent,
not just for your place but also over like a
separate studio and the rent is ridiculous, and like the
general cost of living is ridiculous and it's only getting worse.
But then you're realizing that there's you know, you moved
there because that's where all the work was, and now
(14:28):
the work is I don't want to say like literally anywhere,
but there's lots and lots and lots of work outside
of those major music cities. And especially if you have
a service and like an approach to what you do
that you can do things remotely, then yeah, as long
as you have Wi Fi, you know, I mean, as
long as you have internet and phone service, like go
(14:49):
live in the mountains, go go living a farm, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
But I do want to like push back a little
bit because I do think that making that shift, although
it does sound attractive the way you're pitching it now,
there's a lot of other things that have to get done,
and you have to change your mindset of how you're
doing business, and you have to start doing outreach in
a different way, and you have to start connecting with
people online and not just in person. I think we're
(15:12):
also in an era where people are trying to get
burnt out with like social media, and like i think
we're past the peak of people enjoying using social media
to connect with other people. And so there's like a
lot of I'm just saying, it's not necessarily smooth sailing
you do. There's gonna be a lot of work that
you're gonna have to put in if you want to
take that kind of approach. That's not what you've been
used to doing. If you've been living in like a
(15:32):
New York or in la or in Nashville or whatever, London, Yeah,
it's just a totally different I've never done that. I've
always been a sort of an out like I mean,
I'm from New York, but since I've been living in Jerusalem,
I've been a business owner out of town so to speak,
this whole time. I don't have experience with that. And
I think also I think people that move to places
like La they go there for the community and they
(15:55):
make those connections in real life, and that definitely jump
starts a career. And the question is how do you
shift that? And I think it's doable, but it's it's
not necessarily easy.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Oh, that absolutely obvious. But I want to kind of clarify.
It's like, I'm not saying it's easy to do this.
I'm just saying a couple of years ago, as recently
as a couple of years ago, it wasn't possible. Yeah,
you know, you had like a very very very small
handful of exceptions. Like I think like Servan lives in
like Virginia Beach or somewhere, you know what I mean.
But like there's like a small handful of people that
(16:27):
can live outside of a major city, you know. But
then you have to be like your destination and you
have to already have a ridiculous career and network already
built up.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that it's more
attainable than it was even just a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yes, but you have to be really intentional about it.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You have to be intentional.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, it's not going to just be like, okayoop, I'm
going to go remote. At the same time, though, if
you've been doing it for a long time in a
big city, Like if you just do the math and
look at like what your monthly expenses would be if
you did move somewhere that you're going to be a
little bit happier. Like you don't need as many clients,
you don't need as big of a budget of projects
because your expenses are going to be so much lower.
(17:09):
That's the thing I want to you have to like
take into consideration, like when you're doing the math about it,
because like if I'm just pulling a number out of
my butt, but let's say you need like bare minimum,
you need to make six thousand dollars a year or
starting year a month, it seemed like six thousand dollars
a month to like pay for everything just to like
get by in a big city. But then you do
(17:31):
the math and you realize, oh, to have like the
same kind of like quality of life and the same things,
but like living in a even like a little bit
outside of the city, and it's like, oh, I only
need like forty five hundred per month to like get
by or whatever. This I'm obviously these are just like
example numbers I'm just pulling out. But it's like The
whole point is lowering the bare minimum you need to
(17:52):
survive so that when you do make that move, like,
you don't need as many clients to be able to
like get by. And then obviously the goal is to
then keep on getting more and more. But it allows
you to be a little bit pickier. It allows you
to have that like breathing room to be intentional. I
think that's the benefit of it. It's a lot of
(18:13):
fucking hard work, but I believe it is worth the
hard work if that is what you want. If I'm
not saying you should move out of a big city,
I'm not like, if you're there, you're doing second person
and like you're like a tracking engineer and you love
working with artists. It is like that that is the hub. Still, Yeah,
then don't go remote.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Like I'm not saying I think it's all it's all
hard work. It's just a matter of choosing which hard
work you're going to do and being smart about how
you strategize doing that hard work.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
You know, because you can spend that time thinking about
how to change your approach, or you can spend that
time thinking about.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Where the next gig's coming from.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, the only difference is one's proactive and one's you
know you're at you're at the mercy of word of mouth. Again,
not advocating that everybody leaves big cities if you live there,
if you love it there. I'm just saying, like, for
those of you that do live in a big city
and you're thinking about, you know, if you've been thinking
about wanting to get out, it's possible. It's not easy,
but it's way more possible than it ever was before.
(19:08):
And if you do live in like a smaller city,
you don't need to move to a big city to
really build something great. You know, I never lived in
a major music city. The closest was Philly, which is
not a major music city.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Who was in the seventies, by the way, but that's not.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
In my in my in my time. I'm not that old, Ben.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Just bring it full circle here, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I look great for a seventy five year old man.
But but realistically, like closest to like a music city
I ever lived in was in Philly, and even then,
except for like six months right out of college, I've
always lived out in the suburbs anyway, Like I lived
in like West Philly for like six months or something
and that was it. Otherwise I was like a half
hour out, so I was like in the suburbs of
(19:51):
a non music city, you know, and getting started during
a recession.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It's like, really what I started doing going full time?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
That's millennious.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, so it's not easy, but it's doable. There are
more people doing it than you realize. One of the
things I've noticed over the past twenty years being in
the industry is that audio school usually leaves most graduates
completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure, you
learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep, but
they probably won't teach you how to stand out and
attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion for recording,
(20:22):
appreciate what you bring to the table, let alone pay
their rates you want to get paid. And YouTube university
is full of people telling you that their way is
the right way, and it doesn't help you apply things
to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients. So I've
been building studio Land to fill those gaps. We use
structured learning paths, weekly live classes in a private community
of other pros to help you discover how to turn
(20:44):
your technical expertise into a thriving business that attracts the
right clients at the right rates.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Try it out for free the links in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Besides from like location and diversification, what else can we
talk about in terms of like being a business own
or that is a mixing engineer in twenty twenty five?
Like are we billing per song or billing per hour?
Obviously not? Oh, but what's included? How do you pitch it?
That's something that I want to ask you about.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, I mean, like the only thing that I've seen
that really has changed over the past couple of years
is just the ease of delivering things. Printing mix stems
is easier, doing alternate versions is easier. Computers are getting faster,
so they're doing stuff faster, Like storage space is getting cheaper,
Internet's getting faster, so like those things are getting better.
(21:32):
But like, you know, the actual process, I really feel
like it's it hasn't really changed much for me, billing wise,
you can have different ways of doing it. For me,
it's always per song or per project. You know, it's
always going to be that because I tend to take
the approach of if it's something that the artist is
in control of how long it takes, like tracking or
(21:54):
even let's say like vocal editing. It could be one layer,
it could be forty five layers. It could just need
like three notes.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Totally yeah, well sung, or it could be a piece
of a shit sandwich that that needs a special love.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, I was I was trying to be a little
bit more like I was looking for I was looking
for euphemisms and I couldn't find it. And you took
that moment to just say a shit sandwich. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I've probably asked you this. Have you seen Spidal Tap.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So, yes, but it probably not since high school.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
One of their records is called Shark Sandwich and the
review is a shit sandwich. I think it's the very
beginning of the of the movie. Yeah, I need to
watch that again. It's been way too same, same. But yeah,
so we're at the mercy of the artist in me.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So when it's a mercy of the artist, then it's hourly,
which also kind of incentivizes them to make decisions. But
when it's something that I'm you know, more or less
in charge of how long it takes, like mixing or
master ring, or like something like drum production or something like,
I just do a flat rate because I know how.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Long I'm going to take on things.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And then that way, if I choose to go down
rabbit holes, I'm not charging the artist for me to
be chasing out for something. But also then I'm not
doing work for free when the artist is the one
going down rabbit holes.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Because yeah, exactly, I have a very similar philosophy. I
frame it a little bit differently, but it's sort of like,
if I'm going for my best work, my one hundred percent,
I'm gonna charge you my full rate, and it's gonna
be just a flat fee for the song. Right, So
whether it's a production or a mix, and I'm gonna
just do the best I can and it's probably gonna
(23:28):
be my usual thing and then you're gonna love it,
or maybe you need some revisions and that's okay. Now,
if it's something that it's not that and I just
don't know what the scope is. If the scope is
not my best thing, it's gonna be an hourly rate
because otherwise there's no other way to cut corners. Like
I can't give you a demo rate because I'm always
gonna want to make it better, and you're always going
(23:50):
to want it to be better for whatever rate, So
like this is stupid. It's just gonna build hourly and
the time is going to dictate how corners get cut.
So yeah, that's sort of my like my thought process.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So just so I can make sure I'm really following,
like what is the threshold that makes you decide.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Basically what the artist is looking to accomplish. Are they
looking to just make a stellar production or a stellar mix,
or if they're trying to do something that's like, you know,
on a budget, and I need to get something out
and I don't necessarily need this to be the greatest
thing of all time, but I do need to. I
do want to express myself somehow. So it's like, okay,
this is going to be an hourly thing. You could
(24:26):
probably fight me on this. I could quote maybe a
mix rate and then like an hourly recording rate potentially,
but it's not unless if we're going all the way,
then we're going all the way and I'm trudging my
rate and we're going to just work really hard and
it's spot going to be easy. If it's not that,
then yeah, hourly rate it is.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
I don't think I'm gonna fight you in that.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I'm like, thinking about it now, I've never really thought
about it that way, where it's something that if you
have the total buy in, you know, everybody's in it together,
we're just going to like this as great as we can,
and you do it as a flat rate awesome. And
then it's if like the budget's smaller or like it
seems like they're When I say the quality of their vision,
I don't mean like whether you like it or not.
(25:05):
I mean more like the clarity of their vision. I
guess the quality of the clarity of the vision. If
it seems like they don't really even know what they
want and you're going to have to do some exploration,
you know, then yeah, doing it hourly makes sense. And
I guess like when you're you're saying about it being
something where they don't necessarily want it to be the best,
I guess, like, what was that conversation, Like, I'm kind
(25:28):
of curious edit out.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I'll give you like an example. It's just like a
longtime artist client that I've worked with says, I have
this song that I made with a friend and they
made it on garage band, and they want to come
over and mix it, but they're not going to, like,
they don't have budget for a full mix, So can
we just do two hours in studio and you'll do
the best you can with it. That would be like
(25:50):
an obvious hourly rate thing, you know. I mean they're
asking for hourly time, but they're they're saying like, we
don't have a lot of budget, but we know what
you're what you take, and about two hours is what
we're willing to do. Yes, So it's just like trust you,
so let's just do the best we can with that.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Yes, it's just like hour to most.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, doing the most we can with the time and
the budget they have. And I probably wouldn't take a
project like that on with a new client, but I
will with an old you know client who you know,
we have a relationship with.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
That makes sense, Yeah, I don't know, Well that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, And I think that's also something where you know,
for me, like I would still think that for myself
doing it is hourly because it's something where they're like
they're in charge of how long something's going to take,
and in that case, they're like, oh no, I want
to do two hours exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
They told me it's two hours. There's more examples where
it's like less obvious how many hours it's going to take,
but it's like I don't really know what you're trying
to do exactly, but we're going to just bill hourly
and see what comes out of this.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
So I guess like to kind of circle back to
the you know, what's changing for mix engineers, I feel
like in that sense, like for the stuff that you're
talking about now, that's kind of like when mixing is
in a way like kind of lumped into the same
scope as something else, and.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It's yeah, that does happen, even if ideally it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I have done the hybrid where it's like I don't
know what we're doing, and I'm going to bill you
hourly and then like okay, I'm going to give you
like a mixing rate to actually mix this and make
it sound as good as possible. Yeah, or like my
mixing rate will maybe include some hours of recording but
not all necessarily the hours, Like I've done that too,
of like hey, like I don't know where this is
going or what quality you want, but I need to
(27:22):
charge you my mixing rate, and I'm going to lump
in a few hours of recording and then any more
than that we'll just do hourly.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yeah, and that's sort of like a hybrid.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, as long as it's clear what it does and
doesn't include, then.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
But yeah, the other thing that I wanted to say
personally about, like what I'm including in my mix rate
now which I didn't always do, is the mastering. And
that's like if I'm doing like the full on master.
So if I quote somebody my full rate for a mix,
it'll include a master with a mastering engineer and that's
just like included, And if they have their own mastering engineer,
then we'll talk about reducing the fee maybe, you know,
because I'm most comfortable working with my mastering engineer and
(27:57):
I'm most comfortable having a real master and not full
mastering it myself. And I found that that's just like
the best way to get the best quality and to
just include it and then they know what they're paying
for and they know they don't have to also pay
for mastering and it's just kind of lumped in there,
you know. That was like another thing that I just
wanted to know. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know
if you do that yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Usually I do it like well, for me, it's it
depends on the song and the artist. And if it's
something that I feel like me doing the mastering is
going to be an integral part of the overall sound,
then I'm going to do it. And I feel very
confident doing it, and I really enjoy doing it when
it's a song that is I don't want to say
like out of my wheelhouse mastering wise, but like it
(28:38):
was something where the master here's a better way of
saying it. If the master is a part of the production.
And I think some styles of music the master is
part of the production, like a lot of electronic music,
like that the thickness of it and that the intensity
of that, that's just like a part of the sound.
In that case, like I'm doing it because that's all one,
one big part. Other styles of music, the mastering is
(29:02):
meant to like be a transparent quality control, like fixing
any little things that may have like snuck through and
just polishing it. I think that's when I will get
somebody else to do it, like because I'm not good
at like the polishing. I'm not good at polishing my
own mixes, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
But when it's something they're already polished.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Bro ah shucks. No.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
But but but seriously, like, if it's a song that
needs that, I go to somebody else. If it's a
song where you know, the line between production, mixing and
mastering is so blurry that it's just kind of like
one big blob. I don't know why lines would would
evolve from a straight line into a blurry line into
a blob.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
But whatever, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Okay, I'm not I'm not I'm not Charles Darwin, don't
don't don't not be bro That that's really what what
makes the choice for me. And I'll usually still include
the price when I give them the quote either way,
and sometimes with the artist, i'll tell them that, you know,
either I'll do the mastering or I'll have so and
so do the mastering. The price will be the same
(30:05):
for you. You're still going to pay me anyway, and
I'll pay them out of the budget. I'll handle all
of that stuff. It's just a question of when we
get to the end stage. It's like, if I feel
like I'm going to be the best fit for this
particular song, I'm.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Going to do it, and then you're paying yourself as
the mastering end.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, and then if I think that they're gonna be
the best hit for it, I'm going to have them
do it. The rates the same regardless. So it's not
a skill thing, it's not a quality thing. It's a
taste thing and a who's a better fit for this particular.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
This is an important point. Knowing how and when to
delegate the tasks that you've been allocated budget for is
a very big picture part of like the mixing business
and saying like, Okay, I can tune this vocal, but
I could also pay someone else and like save myself
two hours to start another mix and get that off
my plate and also employ somebody else, and kind of
(30:56):
thinking big picture about that kind of stuff is been
a game changer for me, and I know it's been
a game changer for you. And also in like my
other business of podcast work, just delegating leads me to
be able to expand my team and increase revenue. So like,
just thinking with that big picture mind is huge and
like and sometimes you got to do it yourself and
makes the most sense, you know, and like it sounds
(31:18):
to me like maybe even like projects are sort of
maybe trending in that direction for you of like used
to delegate more mastering and now you're taking more of
it on yourself than you used to. But that's still
a big picture decision, and you're very comfortable, I know
you are very Carl specifically, are very comfortable delegating that
stuff when it's appropriate and makes sense. And that's like
a very I think that's like a really important thing
(31:38):
to think about as you run your business as a
mixing engineer.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, you know, that brings up this idea for me too,
that a lot of times now mixing engineers have to
take on the responsibilities that would have traditionally been the
producer's responsibilities, you know, especially for somebody like myself that
works with a lot of left of center pop adjacent
styles where a lot of my artist clients are self produced,
(32:04):
so like typically if there was a producer on the project,
the producer would be the one kind of like managing
it all and finding the right people and deciding who's
going to be or at least recommending who's gonna do
the mix and you know, recommending who's can do the
master or like they're the ones asking the mixing engineer
who should do the master and like you know, they're
the ones kind of making those decisions or at least
like getting insight to be able to make those decisions
(32:24):
for the artist. And I think now for myself, when
I'm working with a lot of self produced artists, I
as a mixing engineer of kind of taking on some
of those aspects that are kind of like traditionally what producer,
like an old school producer would have done, where it's
like you're the big picture, like you know, dot connector
of people and kind of making those those decisions and
(32:44):
it's not like a paid service, you know what I mean.
Like that's that's kind of like the weird go into
like the whole like you know, well Rick Rubin doesn't produce,
but he does produce, and like it's that whole argument
of like people thinking, well that's not production if he's
not you know, setting up microphones, but like he's making
way more, way better music than you are, you know,
not you bet, I mean, like the cranky people talking
(33:05):
about that for sure. And it's like that element of
trying to be the like the musical matchmaker. It's like
that's part of being a mixing engineer for me at least,
you know, and I think for a lot of other
a lot of other people too.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, I mean this happens more when I'm technically the
producer than when i'm the mixer, but also when i'm
the mixer, you know, I'll be like, oh, yeah, there's
an album I'm thinking about where I was like, oh,
you need a vocal editor, let me send you someone
Lucas's number.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, and like friend of the show Lucas Gito.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
And then the artist I was working with was super
happy with his work and it made my job as
the mixing engineer way easier. So that was great, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
And it builds the artists trust in you because.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yes, you exactly.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
You don't have to be the one to like like
your mouse clicks, don't have to be the one that
saves the day. But like the fact that you brought
in the person like you were the one who like
you knew a guy I came in and like knocked
out of the park. Yeah, that makes you look like
a Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
So like Lucas did the editing and he was super
happy with that, and Connor did the mastering and he
was super happy with that. And I made both of
those matchmaking moments happen and it was it was great,
you know, And that's that's what's about that. I actually
love doing that. I love I love being a connector.
My wife and I have never set anybody up romantically,
but we're we make a lot of friend setups. It
(34:21):
seems to be one of our special powers. So like
I like to do that also in the music industry.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, which which which makes sense, and it makes sense
while you're really bad at or not bad at, but
like while you don't do like romantic match.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Me, we're bad at. We're bad at romantic matchmaking. We're
good at friendship match making.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, well, I mean that's because that's what you've been
doing your whole career. As that's what we do as Yeah,
as as audio people, you know, like whether we're doing
it in an official capacity or not, like we're if
nothing else, we're always thinking about it. We're always thinking about, oh, like, oh,
this person's awesome, Like you guys would work together, like
you should meet like well you you artists, like oh
you like you need to meet this other artist that's
(34:57):
in your city because they're really cool, or like oh
have you played a show with them yet? Because they'd
be it's a fun night. You know, We're always doing that.
So I don't think that even though this is a
new I don't want to say, like a new responsibility
for a lot of mixing engineers. Now, it's not a
new skill set at least, you know, it's just you know,
(35:18):
mixing engineers twenty years ago usually weren't the ones recommending
vocal editors.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
But right exactly, you know, now we get asked.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
But the good thing is we know some like we
know who you like, or at least like we know
somebody who would know somebody. And also knowing that that
vocal editor can be remote. They don't have to be
in your city either, Like.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
It's totally I forget if Lucas is also in Lancaster
or somewhere nearby, but like, you know, the artist is
in New Jersey, the vocal editors in Pennsylvania. I'm in Jerusalem,
and the mastering engineers in Toronto, and oh yeah, there
you go. That was and that's like becoming so typical, right.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, well like that's why to me, like working remotely
with artists from all over the world has been completely
like I've become numb to it. Because there was a
time I remember, like this is maybe twenty eighteen or
twenty nineteen, where I was doing projects where it was
like the artist was from Spain, the producer was in
the UK, I was in the US, my assistant was
(36:17):
in Canada, and mastering engineers in Australia, and like that
was just like a typical Tuesday. You know, it's weird
how unwird it becomes too. I think it's a very similar.
It's a different mental shift of deciding to go more
remote and to start like approaching your business as a
(36:37):
remote business. It's a different type of like mental shift
than going from full stack, top to bottom production into
like delegating out mastering or delegating out mixing or editing
or whatever. It's a different mental shift, but it's if
you've done one, you know you've been through that tough
shift before, you've been through a big fundamental change in
(36:59):
how you run your business, and you've survived, and you've
made it to the other side, and you've realized how
much more you enjoy not having to do vocal editing,
not having to worry about checking the master in seventeen
different places whatever. The part is that you were like
the least excited about. You've seen how good it feels
to get that off your plate, so you've seen that
(37:20):
it's worth it to make those changes.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, totally, well, Carl, I think this is a great
place to wrap up, also because its getting late. But
that was that was a great rant and this episode
really covered a lot of things. Surprised at how deep
and wide it went. So yeah, yeah, this is good. Yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Of course.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I'm glad I and I'm glad we made an episode
after spending forty minutes blabbering blabbering and not actually recording anything. No, No,
you're awesome. I hope the wedding goes great tonight.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Which wedding goes great tonight?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
You're Jane?
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, it's a bar mitzvah. It's not even.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Okay, that stakes her a lot lower.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Anyways, Carl, this has been fun, and I'll see you
after the bar mitzvah. We'll touch base.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Muzzletop Ben, Thank you, bye.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Bye, Carl. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much
as we did. If anything here resonated with you, please
share this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
At Ben Wallace Music and at Carl Bonner.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
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