#253 - Dave Stagl: Leaving Artists Speechless with Dolby Atmos - Secret Sonics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'll get the stereo version right first, and then we
can listen over to the immersive side. And generally it's
just little balance changes sometimes if anything, for the immersive one,
and a lot of times I'm not making any changes.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
It all just kind of sorts itself out. Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to Secret Sonics,
honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to help you
build your dream career in music and audio.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
Whether it's skill development, mixing, mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Let's get started.

Speaker 4 (00:43):
Hi Ben. Oh wait, you're not Ben, You're Dave.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
I am Hi Carl.

Speaker 4 (00:50):
Okay, So elephant in the room, Ben, is that here today?
This is an odd one where I am actually doing
an episode with my good friend Dave, who I am
going to be interviewing today as a special little Secret
Sonics curveball we're throwing at you. So. Ben has had
a bunch of holidays lately and some family stuff, so

(01:12):
we just wanted to get a couple extra fun little
episodes in the bank so you don't have to wait
around for us in case we get behind.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
You didn't tell me it had to be fun.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
Well, I feel like it's gonna be.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
This might be too much pressure for me.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
Now you'll be fine. I believe in you, Dave. I
believe in you. So that said, I am here with
not Ben. This is Dave Stagel, and Dave is a
lovely human who also is a badass mixing engineer and
at most engineer down in the lovely, warm and very

(01:49):
humid state of Georgia. And before we get too deep
into me prodding him and all of the things that
make his little brain and heart tick, I went to
give you a chance, Dave, to introduce yourself to the
audience and give everybody a little little background about what
you do now and how you got here.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, like you said, I'm a mix engineer. I've been
doing this.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Well, it's been a long time. I was trying to
do math the other night, and I don't like doing math,
but I started. I started. I mean, we really want
to go back. I was doing sound kind of in
high school. That was kind of where I got into it,
doing plays and musicals, and then when I went to college,
I was playing in bands and ended up interning at

(02:41):
a recording studio when I was in Chicago, did that
for a bit, and then I started doing Jeesus has
done so much stuff, Like I did a lot of
audio post production, everything from like corporate videos for medical associations,
like the most unglamorous possible audio stuff you can make

(03:03):
a living doing.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
I did that, to TV broadcast stuff.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
And then I spent a lot of time in the
live sound world working with houses worship and I still
do a bunch of that. And about ten years ago
I finally went independent after being on staff for all
those years, finally went independent, and I've done a variety
of things in that time. Still do audio posts here

(03:31):
and there, still do live sound. But the big focus
right now for me that I'm really trying to dig
in on that Karl knows about, is really mixing records
and especially Dolby Atmost. I love Atmost, and that's kind
of the main thing I'm trying to do these days.

Speaker 4 (03:50):
That's awesome, and I feel like I'm not surprised that
you're so excited and interested in utmost, especially considering not
the medical post production stuff, but at least with the and.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
That was what did it?

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Yeah, oh gosh, it's obviously the natural next step from
mixing voiceovers about knee surgeries is to get into adult
me out most fixing. That's not the kind of thing
I want to be immersed in. But it makes sense
though that you know, you have this background not just
in musical theater, but also in like the house of
worship stuff, and the fact that both of those are

(04:22):
a very three dimensional experience, right, Like when you're at
a house of worship, if you're seeing a musical, you're
seeing a play, like even if the things are technically
coming from in front of you, like, the experience itself
is all around you. So it actually it makes more
sense than you might think at first. That ended up
kind of picking out a thing for you.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, I think that that definitely played into it. The
bigger thing for me even was you know, the first
time I heard at Most when I was at my
buddy studio and he had just put it in. It
took me back to my days playing in bands, Like
I still remember the first time we played at the
House of Blues in Chicago and I had it was

(05:04):
like the first real monitor experience where I had like
a pair of wedges down in front of me, and
there were side fills and the back line and everything
was just right, and it was just like the most
I don't know, almost euphoric experience like playing up in

(05:26):
that and you know, atmost made me.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Think of that.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
It made me think of being in kind of rehearsal
rooms where we would all just be set up around
and you just had everything around you and you were
kind of inside the music. And that's an experience that
I don't know, I love it. And to be able
to take that to other people and give them a

(05:52):
taste of that, it just turns into so much more
of an emotional experience listening to music that way. It's
hard to explain, Like if you haven't heard it, it's
kind of hard to articulate, like you need to hear it.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
It's yeah, it's an amazing thing to me.

Speaker 4 (06:11):
That's awesome. Yeah, And I like to think of you.
I think I I might have messaged you yesterday about
how I think you're like the least pretentious gear nerd
that I know.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, and I think some friends of mine might argue
with you on that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Maybe, or they would laugh because it's true. So it's yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:29):
Well, I mean, like I think because of that, I
know how tempting it would be to be the host
of a podcast right now talking to somebody that's like
I'll just say knee deep in at MOST and get
really nerdy and technical and ask you about a whole
bunch of like technical questions. But I know that you could.

(06:50):
I if I asked you a bunch of nerdy questions,
you'd happily answer them. But I feel like you and
I both want to talk a little bit more about
that emotional experience about MOST, because I think that's I've
seen at least when ATMOS is brought up in conversation,
it's usually this like you know, oh, this three dimensional
like wizardry and like all of the tech behind it.
But I think what really strikes me about you and

(07:13):
the way that you approach it is the fact that
it's so experience based. At everything that you're doing. It's
almost like the technology is there to like enable you
to do these things, but all of the decisions are
based on the experience that in a way, like you
want to shape for yourself as you're listening to it,
because you want to share that experience with the listener

(07:35):
and the fans of the artists you're working with. Is
that like a fair description of it?

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, you said it all. There you go. We just
we'll see you next time when that'll be back.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I think.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
I just think I just wrote your new website copy
for you.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, there you go, thanks Carl. Yeah, I mean that,
you know, the technical side. I mean there's a technical
side to audio production, but to me, learning and understanding
the tech side it was always more of a means
to how do we do this creative thing? You know,
I'm more interested in that than the gear. It's like,

(08:13):
what do they say about the audio files they buy
records to listen to their gear. I think people who
are into immersive as we call it today, or who
were into surround sound, I think it's the exact opposite.
We buy the surround stuff and the immersive stuff so
that we can actually experience this music and movies and whatever,

(08:39):
you know, we want to on that. There's just something
about it, like it's gosh, I you know. I bring
people into my studio and they sit in my chair.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
And they go, oh, I get it.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
And that's usually after silence, because people are speechless when
they hear it and everybody like, sometimes people are mad
because they're like, how do I go back after this?
The thing I think about with music is like, you know,
we get all hung up on the recording industry and
making records and this is how you do it. And

(09:12):
the recording industry is really only you know, maybe one
hundred years old, little more than that, whereas music has
been around for thousands and thousands of years. So it
was only up until the last kind of one hundred
years where we were kind of putting it into these
like tiny boxes that were going to play it out of.
Prior to that, you had to be in a room

(09:36):
with musicians and you had this feeling of it being
all around you. And I think there's a lot of
people these days who haven't experienced music that way. Not
as many people have really experienced live music a lot.
I mean I have from playing in bands and mixing

(09:56):
live bands and doing that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
But that I mean immersive.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
I hate using like buzzwords like that, but you are,
You're just immersed in it and it's all around you.
And I think there is something about that connection to me.
It's it's a lot closer to the way it's supposed
to be like the way nature intended music to be.

(10:21):
When we're hearing it more in that format, there's something
strangely more natural about it, even though I mean it's
completely artificial what we're doing in this, but I mean
that's that's the way it's always been with making music
and recording music and everything. I mean, there's we think about,
you know, drums these days, what is natural about modern drums?

(10:45):
You know, It's like there was someone I was I
was having a discussion with because their client they wanted
it natural, and then you have to sit and figure out, well,
what does that What does that actually mean? What do
they think is actually natural?

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Who knows?

Speaker 4 (11:00):
And do they really want natural? Or do they want
to want natural?

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Right?

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yeah, As a drummer, I feel like that's a big,
a big thing, and I mean because I think for
vocals it's the same the same way. It's like, if
you really want a natural it's like that Tim Robinson,
like you sure about that?

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (11:16):
But I think that's it goes back to being a
creative choice, and is the creative choice to showcase the
imperfections and to highlight that and to capture like a
specific moment in time, or is the creative intent to
create something that is bigger and different and something that

(11:37):
maybe wasn't possible in our shared reality. So we're creating
a bit of like an alternate reality that those drums
live in, you know. And there's there's no right or
wrong way. And I think this when it comes to
like atmost mixing, you'd probably agree with this, Like there's
no like right or wrong way to do it. There's
gonna be some ways that are like more effective and

(11:57):
yet a more emotionally acts full story across versus just
like oh cool, Like the cow bell's moving in a
circle around my head.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, it is fun to move cow bells around your head. Well,
I don't know if I've done I don't know if
I've done it with.

Speaker 4 (12:13):
A cow bell, but oh man, you haven't lived.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
I've moved everything else I could around my head.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I mean, there there's a lot of room for what
I like to call stupid at most tricks, you know,
like gimmicky. I think about the down at Disney with
they had like the Muppets three D experience and in
the movie, like they keep going stupid three D tricks,
and you know, like poking stuff out of the screen,
and you can do that kind of stuff in at

(12:42):
most and I mean, when you start messing around, you
probably should do it and get it all out of
your system.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
So that it's like Drumber, same thing with like Drumber chops.
Like everybody goes through a phase where they play a
fill every other bar and then eventually you, like I
don't know, you reach nirvana and you realize you don't
have to fill at all.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Hopefully I know a lot of drummers who haven't reached
that yet, but hopefully that's the goal.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
That is the that is the dream of music.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Directors and producers everywhere that drummers will reach that nirvana.
But there's a lot of creative opportunity in atmost for sure.
There are some technical things though on the creative side
a little more I think sometimes that people don't think about.
Like one of the things that I learned very quickly

(13:35):
is you know, you have to think about phase between
speakers a lot more, because you know, if you think about,
like if we're multi micing a drum kit and we're
trying to place microphones so that we're not having a
lot of phase problems because where we place them. You

(13:55):
kind of have that in reverse when you start moving
into immersive because now we've got all of these speakers,
and if you've got the same thing coming out of
multiple speakers depending on where someone is sitting, you can
start to create phase problems and you can do weird
like and I hear it with some people's mixes, like

(14:16):
if you move your head a couple of inches to
the left or the right, like everything just goes swishy
on you.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
So that's stuff.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
That like, there there are kind of limits I guess
to everything, but there's limits in everything. And I look
at a lot of that more in terms of you know,
there's best practices and you have to figure them out.
But once you start figuring that out, when you start flying,
like the cow bells, they're way more effective and impactful.

(14:49):
Now I really I really want to fly at cow
bell around just because.

Speaker 4 (14:53):
That's your homework after this call, David, So this brings
up an interesting interesting to me, hopefully it's interesting to
you and the less steners. But there's the the approach
that a lot of mixers will take where they talk
about you know, mixing and mono right, and they want
to mix it at mono and if it sounds good
in mono, then when they break it apart to stereo,
it'll still sound good. That's the that's their theory. Is

(15:14):
there like an equivalent or like a an analogous approach
to mixing Dolby? Because when you're talking about all these
different phase issues, is it something where like you're always
like checking an immersive mix in mono or are you checking
it in stereo to see if like the stereo still
holds up, or like what are your how does that
affect your approach to that.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
That's a really good question. I check the mix in
a lot of different formats because part of the benefit
to working in at most is it's a scalable format.
You know, all these formats were used to stereo mono mainly.
They're all channel based formats, and you have to have

(15:52):
a very specific speaker configuration. I mean it's minimal if
you're doing stereo, but you have to have a very
specific speaker configure to play it back. When you get
up into like five to one for surround, you have
to have five speakers or you're going to miss out
on something. Potentially with Atmost that's not the case with utmost.

(16:15):
It's an object based format, which basically it means that
you kind of just can work in the format, and
then on the back end, the renderer goes, okay, there's
speakers here and here and here and here, and then
it goes, I'm going to put everything in the best

(16:36):
speaker possible to sort of replicate the creative intent on
that placement. So I like to check a lot of
those different fold downs to see how is it going
to translate from you know, the full autmost basically all
the way down to stereo, because I'm actually mixing stereo

(16:59):
and atmost at the same time and probably for the
last i don't know, a year or so, maybe longer.
All the stereo mixes I've done in my studio, they've
all been derived.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
From an utmost mix.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
I mean, a lot of the stuff I've been doing
is kind of more broadcast related, like live material and
that stuff. You know, it's going out over the web
most of the time, so it's only gonna be stereo.
But I still mix it in here in atmost because
I can, and I'm gonna enjoy listening to it that

(17:34):
way if I'm mixing it. But I'll have to check
you know, I have to check the fold down. I
have to make sure it's going to work in stereo
as well as I mean, I don't think I really
have checked mono in a long time. One of the
things that a lot of engineers talk about who get
into Atmost is they're not carving space the same way

(17:58):
as like you know, with stereo.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Records.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
These days, we've got all of this stuff we're trying
to kind of cram into two speakers, and with at
Most we have a whole lot more room, and guys
aren't carving things up as much. You know, you're not
hacking up acoustic guitars until they kind of sound like
rhythmic washboards in the mix to fit in with everything.

(18:26):
You can let them sort of breathe and live a
little bit.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
And what a.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Lot of engineers are finding, and this is an ongoing
discussion I have with people. We don't understand how it works,
but somehow it folds down even without having all that
stuff carved out. I think some of it might have
to do with us having a lot more dynamic range
available in at Most because there is actually a loudness

(18:56):
limit you have to deliver things at we can't squash
stuff like we do with stereo releases.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
You have to deliver.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
At I mean, not to get technical, but you have
to deliver at nag eighteen luffs or lkfs, which I
know for a lot of people who are making records
these days that might be horrifying, like the idea of that,
but it actually for me anyways, it's freeing because now

(19:27):
you've got all of this dynamic range and you can
have so much more punch and you're not losing that
bottom octave because you're squashing things with a limitter anymore.
So you have just kind of a deeper thing. And
I think that's also part of the emotional side of
why does this connect with people on a more emotional level.

(19:50):
Sometimes it's because we're not squashing it. I mean, I'm
a friend of compressors. I mean I'm not.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
You're not like anti loudness out of spite.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
No, No, I think, well, I mean the loudness thing,
and it's a bigger discussion. I mean, these days, the
loudness like fixing something loud or doing that limiting just
for the sake of it. It's kind of silly, you
know that every streaming service, they're all normalizing the loudness.
I mean, that's not why I think you should do it,

(20:24):
but there is an esthetic that you get when you
do start limiting things that way, and sometimes I think
it's desirable, and sometimes artists desire it, and to me,
that's like the best way to make that choice and
the reason to make that choice.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
And I guess you could still do it.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
And at most, if you want to really crush things,
I tend to find that a lot of the mixes
that are sort of coming from stereo mixes that were
originally squashed, if they're taking stems and remixing things and
those stems had kind of been put through the you know,

(21:07):
the blender of the you know, the forty plug in
two bus kind of.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Thing that people do.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
A lot of times, those songs in atmost they don't
feel as good because they're not taking advantage of the
same amount of space and the same amount of dynamics.
I mean not always, but if you take those songs
sometimes and you put them up against something that is
a little more open and that is going to breathe
a little bit, the ones that were crushed beforehand, they

(21:36):
don't hit as hard as maybe we think they do
when we listen to them in stereo. So I think
that's something that a lot of us were still kind
of figuring out, Like where is the line between hitting
things kind of the way we were used to doing
it for a while and letting things breathe so that

(22:00):
the music impacts the listeners the way we wanted to
hit them. Because at the end of the day, for me, anyways,
that's what matters is how is this stuff going to
connect with people.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
One of the things I've noticed over the past twenty
years being in the industry is that audio school usually
leaves most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,
you learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep,
but it probably won't teach you how to stand out
and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording, appreciate what you bring to the table, let
alone pay their rates you want to get paid. And

(22:32):
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way is the right way, and it doesn't help you
apply things to your unique struggles, personality, and ideal clients.
So I've been building studio land to fill those gaps.
We use structured learning paths weekly live classes in a
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(22:55):
out for free the links in the show notes. So okay,
so that it makes you want I'm gonna ask a
question that I'm pretty sure most of the listeners are
thinking right now too. You were saying that most of
the stereo mixes that you've been doing kind of like
started out as the atmost mixes. So when the emotional
intent of the artists, for like a big, dynamic, spacious,

(23:17):
immersive doobey mix, when that gets like kind of folded
down to stereo. But then the emotional goal sometimes can
be different between the utmost mix and the stereo mix.
Like they might want the stereo mix because it doesn't
have the I don't want to say, like forced normalization
of like the negative eighteen integrated. They might want the

(23:39):
stereo mix to be louder because they want to it's
going to be up against other stereo mixes that are
not kind of evened out by the expectations and the
requirements of the atmost. So that was kind of a
long way to tee up the question of what do
you have to do differently to the stereo version, Like

(24:00):
after you kind of summit down to stereo, that is,
is it just like okay, this is now mastering round two?
Like is it just an adjustment of like the limitter,
or like does does anything kind of fundamentally fall apart
when the artists ask you to push the loudness of
the stereo version to a much different degree than the

(24:23):
loudness of the atmosversion.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Okay, I'm going to back up a little bit because
maybe this gets into some of my like my background
where I came up, because I started in studios where.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
We were analog.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Like when I went into the studio, it was right
in sort of a transition time, I feel like where
we were moving between.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Analog and digital.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
I remember we would do some sessions were on two
inch analog tape and then other sessions we were working
on like ats or you know, in pro tools or
things like that. So the way I have kind of
looked at metering in a lot of ways, I have
always had kind of this sort of analog level sort

(25:14):
of mindset, and I've always kind of mixed to that.
And I know guys who you know, they mix into
limitters and.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
It's great.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
I never really got into that, and it's just that's
not the way I came up. And you know, the
guys who were my heroes, that's not the way they worked.
So I never would do that. So my approach in
stereo make a long story, way too long. My approach
in stereo was, you know, I just mix, and at

(25:49):
the end, when you get into that kind of mastering phase,
that's where I will start applying any kind of loudness
to make things you know, quote unquote competitive and to
get things up and.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Doing what you have to do.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
And in stereo right now, like let's say, let's say
for the last five to ten years, a lot of
times I want to get that limited on towards the
end of the mix because you know, as anybody who's
done this, no, sometimes your balance will change if you
are going to do you know, the amount of limiting
that you need to get up to those kind of

(26:26):
modern levels. A lot of times when you put that
limit or on, at least it's been my experience, you
put that limited on and your balance can start to change.
Things poke out like things there are things that sit
back all of a sudden that you can anticipate, and
sometimes things poke out. It's like, how did that? That
doesn't make any sense? But now I'm gonna go back

(26:48):
in and I'm gonna tweak that a little bit.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
This goes back to your hatred of math. It's all
that math, no math, too much math happening. I don't
like it.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
That's my podcast rule. There's no math allowed, man. I
know that, like music is supposed to. You know, kids
who play music do much better in math somehow, and
that's all fine and dandy. But I we're not in
grade school anymore, and we're not doing If I wanted to,
if I wanted to earn the engineer title because of math,

(27:20):
I would go do something else, like maybe.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
Something slightly more lucrative. I think, yes, definitely.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Anyway.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
So to get back to applying workflows to at most
like I have worked with a calibrated monitor setup for
I don't know, fifteen, maybe twenty years where and this
is this is a concept that kind of comes out
of broadcast world. I got introduced to it honestly through
Bob Katz and some of the stuff that he's written

(27:51):
on his different approaches to monitoring, and basically the idea is,
you have a sort of signal level that's your kind
of goal.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
So let's say zero.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
VU, and the equivalent in digital is going to be
like depending on your converters, it's gonna be like neg
eighteen NAG twenty. Now we're getting too technical in math.
But the idea is you have that level in your gear,
and then you calibrate the sort of sound pressure level

(28:24):
in your space to be this sort of comfortable ideal level,
and then you just mix and you don't look at
the meters.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
You actually can just work, and strangely, at the end
of the.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
Day you are right where you want to be within
a couple of dB. And in broadcast applications it's just
a beautiful thing because you just mix and you just listen.
And that's kind of more where I came from, Like
we didn't used to sit around and think about like, oh, well,

(29:00):
maybe we're supposed to turn this up a little bit.
It's like nobody nobody worried about that. I mean, my
I still remember the first time I was in a
session when I was an intern, and I remember explaining
to the engineer who was mentoring me like, hey, the
meters on the on the multi track, they're clipping on

(29:22):
the two inch, and I remember him looking at me,
going the redder the better, you know, because he wanted
some of that that tape saturation that was happening on
drums and things like that.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
But it was all more about the sound.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
So in at most that's kind of how I approach
it to begin with, is I'm just listening. Everything's calibrated
in my studio, and Dolby has recommendations on that.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
We don't need to get into that today.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
But when I take when I take that, yeah, you're welcome.
If you are having trouble sleeping, I can point you
to some websites. I will take the stereo kind of
fold down version of it, and then I will master
it much the same way as I would if I

(30:10):
had mixed it in stereo originally.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
So what does it need? I find?

Speaker 1 (30:15):
I use less EQ on that stage now, So a
lot of times it's a liminar.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
But sometimes, you know, sometimes I.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Might put some fun stuff in there, you know, black
box kind of things or tape things, or you know.

Speaker 4 (30:33):
It's that would just be for the stereo version, just for.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
The stereo version. I mean sometimes with the utmost it gets.
The thing where it gets interesting in the atmost world
is if you have a song that had already been
mixed in stereo, and now you have to decide, or
the artist has to decide, you know, how close do

(30:56):
we want the atmost to feel to the stereo version.
Because you know, people who are listening on Apple devices,
they can sit there and you can flip back and
forth between the two of them. I mean it's not
easy easy, but it's relatively easy, and once you understand
how to do it, you can flip back and forth
between the spatial version and the stereo version. And the

(31:20):
general consensus among engineers is you don't want it to
be like a whiplash experience for somebody going between the two.
I think, I think you want to maintain the spirit
of the stereo. When you go over into atmost, you're
really just kind of expanding things. So you have to decide,

(31:42):
if the stereo was originally crushed, now on the atmost side,
what do you do.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Do we let it.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Breathe a little more and take a little more advantage
of that, or does that change the feel of the song.
So you have to start, you know, putting some of
that squash back into things a little bit. That's yeah,
you know, it's it's a it's a creative thing you've
got to figure out.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
Yeah, And like and if it does change it, does
the artists want that? Does the artist want it to
feel like its own unique thing in a way? Like
I think what's interesting is there are a lot of parallels,
like the difference between you know, mixing for CDs versus
mixing for cassettes, or mastering for CDs versus mastering for
cassettes or mastering is vinyl. And I think what the
thing that's so interesting is that for all of those

(32:29):
like we're used to them all requiring different approaches and
kind of like specs and we know, like, yeah, you
can't have nearly as much bottom end of the vinyl,
Like that's all all normal, But those different formats, you
didn't have the ability to literally like flick a button
and all of a sudden it goes from one version
to the other, right, you know, like there was always

(32:49):
if nothing else, even if you were like switching between
even if you were a total doofist and you were
like switching between like the phono into like the RCA
or whatever, like there was still like a bit of
a buffer time, right, Like there was still like a
little bit of a time in between, like even if
you were trying to switch it, like you had that
break and now it's like you can like instantaneously go

(33:10):
from one to the other. And if you want it
to be a whiplash, I feel like some artists probably
do want that, they want it to be a totally
different experience, then awesome. But then if they don't want that,
it is a totally different set of considerations. And I
feel like the this is where I want to kind
of like ask you a bit about the conversations that

(33:30):
you have with the artists, like how do you decide
or how do you help them to decide and articulate
what their goals are for not just for the CEO mix,
not just for this fairly new technology of the immersive audio,
but then like having that decision about well, how close
should they be, Like what are those conversations, Like, Man.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
I don't know, I don't even see I don't even
necessarily think about it. In the same way, I think
my approach is more when I'm talking to someone about
their music, I'm not necessarily thinking specifically in terms of
format or like, you know, do you want the guitar

(34:15):
up in the front left or do you want it
in the back right. I don't know that that's ever
a good way to approach doing any kind of music.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
For me.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
It's it's much more of a field based kind of thing.
So if I'm going to have a conversation with an
artist about what they're going for intent things like that
up front, I'm gonna have all that stuff in my
head when I sit down to actually mix, and all

(34:45):
of the kind of decisions that I'm making in the
studio are going to be based on the context that
I get from the artist, which is hopefully very deep,
because you know, you don't have to do as many
revisions typically on the back end if you get it right.
So it's the same kind of thing when I'm doing stuff, though,

(35:07):
the first thing I typically deliver to somebody is I
deliver the stereo.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
So because the.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Stereo, I mean, as much as I want at most
to be the most important thing where we're at right now,
the stereo is still kind of the key thing for people,
So I always look at it is let's get the
stereo right first, even though I'm working in At most

(35:33):
I'll get the stereo version right first, and then we
can listen over to the immersive side. And generally it's
just little balance changes sometimes if anything, for the immersive one,
and a lot of times I'm not making any changes.
It's it all just kind of sorts itself out. I

(35:55):
haven't worked with artists yet who they're not thinking about,
like I want this pad to kind of engulf and
swirl around on things. What I see happening is when
I do a mix for someone in immersive. I've had

(36:18):
some local artists here who have come over and listened
in the studio. I can see the wheels turning when
they start hearing their song. The wheels are turning for
what am I going to do.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
On my next record? And how am I gonna start
thinking about this?

Speaker 1 (36:33):
More So, I think as we go forward, there's gonna
be a lot more of that kind of collaboration in
a lot of ways on the immersive side. And not
that there isn't right now, because when I mean, it's
not bizarre for me, but I've had attended sessions for

(36:54):
the first time in I don't know how long, because
when I've been doing ATMOS stuff for local artists. They
want to come over and hear it in the speakers,
and they'll come over and we'll talk about, oh, maybe
we should move some of the vocals a little more
around or sometimes and this is a discussion that I've

(37:18):
had with other engineers. You know, there are some songs
where if you try and pull it into the space
too much, it feels like you've pulled the music apart
rather than made it immersive. There are some things that
it just needs to go together. And that's the kind

(37:40):
of thing where maybe in some of those some of
those preliminary conversations with artists, that's the kind of stuff
that I might start getting a feel from. Sometimes you
can listen to a rough mix and go, okay, you know,
what's the intent?

Speaker 2 (37:57):
They want this to kind of be this thing.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Maybe it needs to be a wall rather than this
like blanket that wraps around you or something like that.
So I don't know if that answers the question, Carl, but.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
No, it does. It does, and it makes me I
just had like a I'm like half sarcastic about this,
but I kind of think there is something beautiful about
if you have an attended session with a band, and notoriously,
the guitarist will want the guitars louder and the drummer
wants the drums ladder. You can just tell the guitarists
like just move to your left like two feet.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, just go over there. Yeah, it just don't lead
a little.

Speaker 4 (38:36):
Bit this way. Oh yeah. So it's like it's like
the next stage of evolution from the whole, like pretend
to move a feeder approach. Yeah yeah, yeah, but this
is an utmost nube question.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
So let's say you're working with an artist that's not local.
It might be a really stupid question, but like how
do they preview and listen to the immersive version? I mean,
assuming that they have AirPods, right, Like, is it just
like a something they can listen to and look up
in Apple Music or is it like a separate sort
of like you know preview like web version, Like how

(39:11):
does that work?

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (39:12):
No, that's actually a really great question. With the immersive
stuff with Dolby autmost, there are a couple of different
headphone formats. With Dolby, they actually have their own kind
of binaural version, which is something that we have control
of as engineers and we can kind of assign different

(39:36):
distances to things. Is the way it works in there
to make things feel a little more kind of spatial
and immersive in there. And in addition to sort of
the placement, because it does a binaural thing. Where I
was working on something real early on and I had
headphones on because I can listen to it in here,

(39:58):
and there was a voice that I put in the
back corner and it made me jump and like I
turned around and there was nobody there, so and that
was in headphones, So that kind of stuff can happen.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
So so I hear.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
Georgia is pretty haunted, So are you sure it was
in the mix?

Speaker 2 (40:21):
So there's a Dolby version.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
Apple has their own thing they called Spatial Audio, which
is the way they deliver Dolby outmost content. And we
can talk about the differences if you really want to
get into that in a minute. But what I will
send to artists if they're remote, I mean, there's a
couple of things that I'll do. The first thing is
I'll check is there a studio in the area that
has speakers where I can connect with the engineer might

(40:45):
be able to get them into a room to go
and listen. I mean, you know, for someone who's in Nashville,
for example, there are plenty of studios in Nashville that
are at most you know, major markets, they've all got
outmost capable studios these days. But for other artists, or

(41:06):
maybe someone's on tour and they're on a bus somewhere
and they're just not going to be able to get
into a studio and listen. We've got these headphone formats
that work great. It's not quite the same experience, but
it's the way most listeners these days listening to music.
It is the way that they are hearing things these days,
since the car audio is coming and it's starting to

(41:29):
get rolled out more and more all the time. But
until that really becomes the standard, headphones are how most
people are listening to things. And honestly, I think that's
the way most people are well not my generation, but
you know, like my kids generation, it's a headphone thing.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
So what I will usually typically.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Do, long story long again, I will send the dolby
byin oural version and I'll say, hey, just listen to
this in headphones. That's the way their song is going
to be heard. On Amazon it's the way you're going
to hear it. On title. If somebody is listening on
Apple Music and they want to listen to spatial audio

(42:11):
without AirPods, that's the way they're going to hear it too.
I believe it's kind of a little bit of a
moving target, because a lot of this is still a
little bit of a moving target. But I'll send them
that and then they can listen in headphones and comment
and make notes. I can also send them a file

(42:33):
that would be Apple specific if they want to hear
the head tracking and really do that kind of thing.
I personally don't like doing that because to do that,
I have to send an instruction booklet on how to
do it. Unfortunately, it's just not as easy right now
to listen to things that way. I think that's something

(42:54):
that's going to change over the next year or two.

Speaker 4 (42:58):
Yes, say, nothing makes an artist feel more excited about
your mix of their song, of their creative baby than
having to read an instructional manual before listening to it.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah, that's like really Yeah, you got to text it
to yourself and then you've got to save it in
the files app.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
And then you go in and play. It's I know.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
I know engineers, high level engineers who have they've got
documents on this that they send out and they've been
fairly successful doing that. I personally don't like doing that
because the artists that I've worked with in the past,
I just know it's like, Okay, they just need a
file that they can play and with that binormal file,

(43:41):
I mean, it's just a stereo waveform that has been
created with you know, the binormalization in it. So I
can put that in any kind of web based player,
like you know, if you're using Sample or mix up,
drop Box, whatever you're using saying, I can just send

(44:02):
that to a client and they can play it and
it's easy, which is what I like. I like making
things as easy as possible for people because I don't
want them to have to worry about the technical kind
of stuff that's you know.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Because then then they're frustrated.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
Like the last thing I want is somebody, you know,
when they finally go to their first listen of their song,
like they're frustrated because they had to go through this
crazy technical procedure just to hear the thing. Now that's
gonna influence how they're you know, actually listening to it.

(44:40):
I mean, hopefully it would be a relief and would
you know, turn the day around. But I just like
taking that out of the equation to begin with and
make it as simple and easy for people so that
they can just you know, hear their music.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
That's awesome. Okay, So my big question for you then
is going to be talking to the producers that are listening.
You know, I don't want to like get to technical
about like the nerdy stuff. You know, there's plenty of
other places they can go, plenty of white papers they
can read, I'm sure. But like, let's say I'm a
producer that doesn't currently do at most and maybe I

(45:17):
don't even do my own mixing, like because I just don't.
That's just not not a thing that I really love.
And maybe like trying to figure out the whole utmost
thing is just like more stuff to learn. That's not
really what I'm excited about. I'm more excited about like
the creation process and like working with the artists. Right, So, like,
as a producer, what should I be looking for in

(45:38):
a mixed engineer that does at most right? Like, because
I know, like I know what to look for, and
like a mixing engineer. But when it comes to the
atmost side, there's a lot of people that are saying
that they're doing at most, but they're not. They haven't
been as far along in the emotional journey of translating
songs to at most. So I'm curious what would you
say to a producer such that they'd be looking for.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
I think, well, I think there's a few things. I mean,
number one, are they working on speakers. I think there's
a lot of people out there who have gotten into
atmost and they're only working on headphones. And that is
a great way to get started if you want to
learn the technology. Headphones is a great way to start,

(46:23):
But there are some things that will bite you if
you are only working on headphones and not on speakers.
So I would say, make sure whoever you're working with,
make sure they're working on speakers and are going to
hear it in speakers. I know the headphone side gets
a lot of attention right now, but this is still

(46:44):
a speaker format. And when car audio really starts blowing up,
which I think it's really gonna do, everybody I know
who listens to utmost in cars, they're amazed when that
really starts happening. I think there's a lot of engineers
who are going to go and listen to some of

(47:05):
the stuff they've done and you know, maybe want a
mulligin on those mixes because they weren't listening in speakers
and they were doing it all on the headphones. So
make sure it's someone who is working on speakers or
has the ability to go and check it on speakers,
because that's something you can do. You could work in

(47:25):
headphones and then you know, go book a studio for
half a day and listen on speakers and fix anything
that doesn't work. The other thing, though, and maybe this
is to me the bigger thing is you know, is
the person who's doing the utmost, Like are they into
at most or did they just get into it so

(47:47):
that they could work more and not that it's a
bad thing if you're getting into this because there are
new opportunities there. I mean, hey, that's business. But I
think you want somebody who who actually really cares about
it and loves the experience that you get from it

(48:08):
being immersive. Because there's mixes I listen to from artists
you know that I grew up with who I know,
like the creativity that was going on and things, and
I will listen to these immersive mixes and it's just
everything is up front and they're not taking advantage of that,

(48:29):
and it doesn't make any sense to me.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
It's like the immersive versions feel.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Like they run counter to those artists and what you
know makes them them. So I think you want to
work with engineers who actually love immersive and are trying
to create that.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Kind of experience.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
I mean, yeah, for me, the was like yeah, I
mean I saw it and I went, hey, this might
be some opportunities to do this. But for me, I've
been a surround sound junkie since high school and when
I first heard at Most it was me kind of
I just said, Okay, I've wanted to work this way

(49:22):
my entire career. I'm getting older, I need to go
for it. I need to do this. I mean to me,
the way I hear music in my head, that's at
Most just always the way that I you know, going
back to my days as an artist and a songwriter,

(49:43):
like I just I hear it that way, and working
in the format, it's almost like I'm not even thinking
about a format now. I'm just thinking about music and
how am I going to experience this music? And I
can take these things in my head and now I

(50:04):
can do it so that other people can hear it
that way.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
So well, number one, that's going to make a really
great clip for the Instagram. But also I mean maybe
the way that I would say, like kind of listening
to what you're how you're describing this, and I think
the short version of that because you and I are talkers,
and this is nice for me to be able to
like let somebody else talk. Poor Ben, I just like
to talk over him all the time. But it's like

(50:29):
the difference between somebody that gets into at Most to
provide a service versus someone that gets into at Most
to curate experiences. I think there's a very big difference there.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 4 (50:41):
And some people do just want like the service done.
But I feel like if you're an engineer wanted to
get into at Most, do it because you want to
create experiences, You're going to have a lot more fun
and get better results. And if you're a producer that's
looking at bringing an utmost mixer onto the team for projects,
you know, looking for somebody that is really dedicated into

(51:04):
creating and crafting and experience for the listener, and experience
for your client's fans, right, because that's the whole thing.
It's like, we're not just like, yes, we're doing it
for ourselves because it's cool to shit, but also ultimately
we're trying to make it an experience for the listeners
of the artists who are like the fans of the
artists who have trusted us with their music, and that

(51:28):
it can be tempting to just, you know, do this
swirly cow bell, which I know you have to do
after this call, but like as tempting to do that.
But if we can have the restraint and the willpower
to avoid helicopter cow bells and just create a unique
experience for our artist clients fans, then you know, that's

(51:50):
really the big delivery that we need to we need
to be responsible for.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Absolutely, I mean, I think the service mentality that still
stands that is what we do as engineers. We're here,
at least I'm here to help my clients and to
really take care of them and help them achieve their
vision first and foremost, that is always a big thing

(52:17):
for me. But sometimes I think with the immersive side,
sometimes it's being able to show them that, hey, what
you had was amazing, we can make it even more
than you even.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Thought it would be.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
But also you have to be able to, like, you know,
the restraint side. You've got to bring it down sometimes
because not every song, not every song should be that.
And I don't think you need to either. I mean,
that's what's interesting to me too, is you know, on
the one hand, you know, we can start thinking about
it's like, oh, okay, well I got a track I'm
working on. It's like five hundred tracks, and you know,

(52:55):
four hundred and ninety nine of those are vocals somehow.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
And the other one is the cow bell, right, the other.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
One's the cow bell. You know, do you swirl the
cow bell or do you swirl the vocals?

Speaker 4 (53:07):
Yeah, it has to be like a Steve Reich composition
where it's like one cow bell and four hundred and
ninety nine vocalists.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Those dnse the dense tracks, as we'll call them. Yeah,
with with autmost, you can you can do some stuff
with them and make things fit a little better. But
there's also something that I think Atmost does with the
smaller songs and how you can achieve a different kind

(53:34):
of intimacy with people. You know, you take your like
singer songwriter kind of stuff, and as an artist, you
want to get in the room with your fans and
really be able to have this song that they can
connect from. There are things you can do with it.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
It just.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
It's a different level of connection when you're experiencing that.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
That's awesome. First off, thank you for sharing that kind
of an experience and critmic experience for artists. But secondly,
thank you for being a restrained nerd with me today.
I feel like we like got right on the edge
of like diving head first, but we sought ourselves. We
were good little boys and we didn't get too nerdy

(54:21):
and technical, and I just I appreciate you. I'm so
glad you were here and able to kind of like
give I think a bit of a different perspective on
immersive audio that really should be talked about more, but
I don't think it's enough attention.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Yeah, the creative side of it, I mean that's I
think a lot of us that's where we want to
get it to. I mean, it's this new thing, so yeah,
we have to talk about the mechanics of how do
we do it? But I can't wait until we have
moved past that completely and it's just experience because that

(55:00):
was what hooked me. That's what I know hooked a
lot of other people. And I love that we were
able to talk about that today and not have to
get too much into all of that technical stuff. And
thanks for bringing me on, Carl. I appreciate it. But
I always enjoyed talking to you, so you know, it's
just like us hanging out.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
Well, I appreciate you. I think you're awesome, and I
am excited to come back in like ten years when
we're talking about mixing for neural implants and like you know,
doing low pass smell filters and things. It's gonna be real, real,
real great time. But Dave, you're the man. I appreciate you,
and I hope you have the best day ever and

(55:41):
I'll see you next time.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
Thanks, Carl, I'll talk to you later.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did.
If anything here resonated with you, please share this or
your favorite episode with a friend.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
At Ben Wallace Music and at.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
Carl Bond until next time. Bye Ben, Bye Carl. That
was good.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
I think the outro is great.

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#253 - Dave Stagl: Leaving Artists Speechless with Dolby Atmos

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#253 - Dave Stagl: Leaving Artists Speechless with Dolby Atmos