#254 - The Shelf-Life of Major Credits - Secret Sonics

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's such a pervasive myth, you know that you just
see that big project, but then when people get to
the other side of that big project and realize, oh,
that didn't really do it. Fuck, what do I do?
You know? Like, I've seen too many people with that
like deer in headlights sort of view of their own
career and like the future of their business, and I

(00:22):
want to try to nip it in the bud.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hi. I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to
Secret Sonics, honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to
help you build your dream career in music and audio.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Let's get started.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Hi, Ben, Hi Carl. How are you today? Sir?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm doing really well now that I'm you know, schmoozing
with you, so let's put it that way. But yeah,
I'm doing I'm doing okay.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Is it still schmoozing if we've been friends for many years?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I feel like any conversation is a schmooze.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Maybe for us gentiles, I feel like schmoozing is usually
like in a networking sort of scenario. Ah, So I
was like, do you just see me as your like
your business acquaintance.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
That's just like a crass definition of the word schmooze.
It's not it's not the true definition of the word schmooze. Like,
you know, there's a smear campaign or smear campaign, but
then there's smearing your bagel that's kosher every time, right, yes,
so like if the ingredients are kosher.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
It would be so much better if, like if political
smear campaigns were actually just like kind of like the
Nickelodeon slime bucket.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
But yeah, it's like yeah, yeah, and then you shmear.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
It cream cheese or whatever. But anyway, from that completely
nonsensical note, I'm glad to see you. It's been a
little while.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yes we don't have to discuss why, but I'm glad
to be here and to talk to you again.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm glad you're here too. So today's topic, do you
want to tee it up? Or should I do it?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I'm gonna attempt to tee it up because this is
something that I know you been getting nerdy about recently. Essentially,
we're trying to debunk the myth that if you have
Grammys or amazing credits, you know that's it. Once you
get the credits, you're going to be good to go
and you don't really have to try to get leads
or drive people to work with you. You know, that's it.
You've built it, and now they will come. And we're

(02:18):
saying that that's not true. And Carl knows better than
me that that's not true because he works with people
who have credits and tries to get them more work.
So Carl is, does that sound like a good framing
for what we're going to be talking about today?

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yes, that's that's perfect. Yeah, I want to talk about
the myth that, like you said, like once you have
a big credit, everything is going to be easy from
that point on, Like it's like word of mouth is
therefore going to just kind of carry you on until
you retire, right, And if that were the case, I

(02:51):
would not have had a lot of the conversations that
I've had with people that do have Grammys and number
ones and Emmys and you know, all sorts of big, ridiculous,
ridiculous culture shifting album credits that still have a hard
time finding work, and I kind of want to like
be very blunt about it before I start talking about

(03:12):
some of like the positive, like how to reframe how
we look at what successfully actually is. But I want
to be very kind of like get out of the way,
tough love Daddy Carl time, and just say like you
can have a Grammy and still be broke, And you
could have a big number one and still be broke.
You can have a you know, these these big eccolades.

(03:32):
You can have a huge artist on your portfolio and
still not be able to get clients. I want to
get that out of the way because that is a
myth that I think has been just perpetuated by whether
it's society or hope maybe or you know, maybe that
was like how it was in the past at some
point in the industry, you know, but like that's just

(03:54):
not how it actually works. Like right now, I've got
I think fifteen or sixteen students that have Grammys that
come to me and get my help with, you know,
figuring out client equisition because it's just not it's not
something that is guaranteed.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
It's also not something that they thought about working on
because they were so focused on like the process of
being an amazing audio engineer to work with, yep, said
kind of artists, Right, they're like, how do I get
amazing drum sounds? And they are just so dialed in
on that, but they haven't looked up to see, oh wait,
but how do people find out about me?

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Right?

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Like they're just not that's not on their radar.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, and it's a blessing and a curse because word
of mouth is amazing when it works, but then the
second that it stops, everybody just kind of craps their
pants because they don't know where the projects are going
to be coming in, you know. And I think it's
why I've seen a lot of very successful producers at
engineers very successful on paper, either really struggling to find

(04:54):
clients and not wanting to admit it or acknowledge it
until it's too late, which is probably like a generational
thing something to talk to the therapists about. Or they
start getting into other side I don't say side hustles,
but like other parts of the industry, like making mixed

(05:16):
tutorials and like kind of going that route not because
they want to, but because they feel like that's where
the money is. Or they start doing like corporate stuff
and just not talking about it publicly. And there's a
lot of stuff that I've seen that kind of happens,
you know, behind the curtain that is really depressing, you know,

(05:37):
when you think that it's all preventable, because it all
stems from this belief that, yeah, you get a big credit,
you get you know, a big artist on your resume,
and you're going to be set. And I think it
makes sense why we think that, you know, not just
because we see it in TV shows and movies and whatever,
but also because for a lot of people, when they

(05:58):
have that big like sprint of success and stuff to
talk about, they do get a lot of attention and
they do get a like a surge in inquiries. But
the thing that nobody talks about is that a grammy
has a shelf life, you know. And I don't mean
that in the sense that, like you lives on a
shelf that's no pun intended there.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Hopefully this shelf will stay there and the grammy will
stay put for a long time, you know.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yes, yeah, I don't mean like literally gonna it's not
going to like spoil and go go bad. But in
the sense that if you have a big credit and
a big award like in you know, twenty twenty five,
that's going to be more relevant to artists than something
that was from twenty fifteen or two thousand and five, right,

(06:47):
And it's uncomfortable to talk about, but I think that's
something that needs to be talked about because it's it's
it's true. I've seen it firsthand so many times through
like talking to so many people that have that and
something that I want to talk about because it's fixable
and because it's it's something that we can shift how
we look at it, how we look at what success is.
And I'm not saying that in a like Travis Ferrence

(07:08):
Progressions podcast like Front of the Show Luff. I don't
mean it like reframing success at a mental health standpoint.
I just mean, like, what are some of the landmarks
that we look to achieve in our careers and what
do those landmarks mean? And I just want to say that,
you know, having a Grammy, having a number one, having
a big hit is a landmark, but it's not the

(07:28):
finish line. And I think people look at that as
the finish line. So the finish line and then like
everything else after that is just like a victory lap.
You know, you just do victory laps for the rest
of your career. And that's not how it is. So
what I want to look at and what I want
to talk about today are the kind of like three
essential principles that we need to always keep in mind

(07:50):
if we want to actually have a successful and sustainable
and like creatively fulfilling career.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, and one that doesn't dry up and have bad seasons.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yes, exactly to avoid the feaster famine. It's like, if
you can write instill these three things into your head,
like that will help you to get out of the
feaster famine. It's like the biggest, the biggest shift you
can make.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Okay, so let's let's get into it, Carl. Yes, you
have the three principles. Three prints give us the first principle.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
So the first principle is that potential clients need to
have a problem that we can solve. We think, okay,
that's pretty obvious. Yeah, like they need mixing, so we
can mix it. Problem solved, right, And I think that's
the very very shallow way of looking at that problem.

(08:36):
And I think more importantly we should be looking at
you know, what are the deeper problems that we have
that we can solve. I describe like the four different
like levels of clients or the four different levels of
like client purchase decision making. As you know, at first,
people are hiring based on the price. You are cheaper
than them, so they're going to hire you, or they're

(08:57):
cheaper than us, they're going to hire the other person.
After that stage, they start to be making their decisions
based on quality. I said, Okay, well, I know that's
this person's a little bit more expensive, but that makes
it sound a lot better, So I'm gonna I'm gonna
spend the extra hundred dollars to do this or whatever
that that number is. But then above that, like the

(09:19):
next level, it's the people that are looking for the experience,
Like they know that they can get a really great
quality mix from a lot of different people, and they
want to work with somebody that they get along with
collaboratively and creatively, and like they really feel like fulfilled
themselves when they're working with you. Then that fourth level
is the peace of mind. I don't like, you know,

(09:39):
talking about individual mixers or anything like on the podcast,
like you know, good or bad. I think this is
just like a neutral thing. But like let's say like Serban,
I would say Serban is going to be one of
those people where like, yeah, of course this maxes sound great. Yeah,
like that's not a question. But it's not that like
serbands the only person that can do a great pop mix,
you know, and I'm sure like you could make an

(10:00):
argument that there's some pop mixes from other people that
sound better than some of the ones that he's done.
But as the peace of mind, like people hire Servan
because they know what they're gonna get. They know it's
gonna be really really really really good. They're gonna get
like there's not gonna have any hiccups, there's not gonna
be any drops in communication, there's not going to be
any any problems at all, and they know that he's
gonna get done one time. Money needs to like everything's

(10:24):
gonna work, you know. So when you have an artist
that they're doing this for fun and it's just like
their their hobby, there's something else financially really involved, and
there's no pressure, right, so it's just like okay, well
there's no pressure, so like I'm just gonna get the
cheapest option, which is why for like mastering engineers people
will go to like you know, Lander or whatever. Then

(10:45):
you have like the quality and it's like, okay, well
maybe they'll get somebody to do whatever, maybe they'll learn
how to master themselves because they think they can do
a better job than Lander, and that's more important than
like the money. And they might spend the money on
some plugins, you know, more than the couple bucks a
month for like emastering, but to them it's it's worth
it because the qualities can be better. Then you have

(11:07):
the experience of you know, hiring a really like professional
mastering engineer and not just somebody that does a good
sonic job, but somebody that like also gives you feedback
and is like release it'll work with and you know,
answers your questions all those things. And then you still
have like those top top top mastering engineers that yeah,
they do a really great job, and yeah they have

(11:27):
all the same gear as somebody else, but it's also
that peace of mind that like they've done so many
high level projects and they all sounding great that there's
almost like no risk involved in hiring that person. And
especially when we're talking about like mixing and production and
these bigger things. The artists have so many other things

(11:49):
to worry about. That hobbyist, you know, like weekend artists
that's just doing it for a fine, Like they're not
worried about marketing and pr and ad spend and like
tour logistics and all that labeled negotiations and that stuff. Right,
So like the higher if you go, like the more
other problems that they have. So the peace of mind

(12:10):
of like not having to think twice about it and
just knowing thing can can do the files and it's
gonna sound fucking awesome and everything's going to be like
done without a hitch to them, That's why they pay
so much money for that. So the reason I wanted
to explain that is because one number one, I think
it's super important that we kind of understand that. But
number two, when we think about finding a problem that

(12:30):
we can solve and knowing that the artists have to
have a problem that we can solve, solving the same problem.
If we think of it as they need a song mixed,
I do mixing, I'm solving their problem. Well, when I said,
it has a different like scope and like different intensity
and different like emotional value depending on where that artist is,
depending on what stage it is. It's a very different consideration.

(12:54):
So somebody that charges, you know, ten thousand dollars for
a mix, they're charging that because the people that are
hiring them see like the solution of that getting the mix
done by them with that experience, at that peace of mind,
is that's worth a ten thousand dollars to them. So
like being able to do a ten thousand dollars mix
for one client does not mean that every other client

(13:17):
is gonna see ten thousand dollars value. So that that
that weekend artist like that, you know, SoundCloud wrapper is
not going to be like, oh yeah, it's totally worth
ten thousand dollars to get that because because to them,
it's not it's not that the mixes are any better
or worse, or that you're a different person. It's just
it's a different amount of pain.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Right, Like major labels, right they hopefully have enough cash
to go around to pay a very high mixing rate
and they can just be like it's almost like they're
happy to throw money at a problem because they have
more money than maybe like they don't have the resources
to deal with a headache of not being happy with
the mix or whatever. So they're just gonna go with
the option that they know they're going to be happy with,

(13:56):
which is serbin.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah. Well, I mean even if we think of it
like less of out just like throwing money somewhere and
just thinking like there are so many moving pieces to
a big album release, especially for like a bigger artist.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
That any any hiccups.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Any hiccups, even if it's like you know, the files
get there like and you know a couple hours after
when they needed to get there, like that could cost
them tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know,
like millions of dollars in some cases, you know, right
in the longer term, it just like in a way
if you think about was it the swet Canal or whatever,
like the canal was it had like the boat that

(14:30):
got stuck for a while and like totally screwed up.
But like when that happened, one boat got stuck and
it sucked up everything for like the world economy for
a long time. Right, Yes, and yes that's a bigger scale.
But if we think about it, like if there's an
issue with the mixes, are like the artist isn't happy
with it, or there's like a delay because the mixer

(14:53):
is slow and like doesn't have the flexibility and the
availability to do all of the revisions or whatever. Like
it's worth it to spent that ten thousand dollars or
whatever the money is because it prevents all that.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Other stuff like cascading issues.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
And like the cascading potential risk for that soundclub repper
that's gonna spend fifty bucks, Like there is no cascading risk.
They just like, don't put it out in another day. Yeah,
we're going to get ten listeners, you know. So Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
I spoke with John Greenham, who mastered the first Billie
Eilish record, and he was like saying, like, I just
get a record and they need it asap. And I
listened basically for fifteen minutes. I do the best I can.
And that's basically how you master really big singles, yeah,
and albums like you just this says, there's no time
to overthink it, you just do right. Yeah, But they

(15:41):
get paid for their experience in their ears and the
track record of just doing those masters really quickly.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
And yeah no, yeah, that piece of mind that like
whenever we have this song, we can call John and
we'll get it back in like an hour or two,
you know, you mean, like and if that's it's like
the doctors that are on call you know, lights and
weekends or whatever, like good money because they need to
be like able to provide that drop of the hat service,
and that drop of the hat service is very valuable

(16:08):
to the dislabeled comments artists. So where this kind of
falls apart for a lot of producers and engineers, it's
when they want to raise their race. They want to
work with like higher and higher clients. Maybe they're used
to working with these clients and they want to like
start working with like the better and better clients, But
they don't take into consideration the kind of problems that

(16:29):
they have because like it's a very different sort of
problem to solve for a fifty dollars client versus a
you know, five hundred dollars client, you know, And it's
not not in the classic producer meme like complaining about
a fifty dollars client and like five thousand dollars clients
like super easy to work with, like number one. That's
true for a reason, but also it has something to

(16:50):
do with the client. It has to do with you know,
what are the expectations that we have of ourselves and
the way that we think we can help people, and
like making sure that that's in a alignment with the
problems were actually publicly saying that we can solve. One
of the things I've noticed over the past twenty years
being in the industry is that audio school usually leaves
most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,

(17:13):
you learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep,
but they probably won't teach you how to stand out
and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording, appreciate what you bring to the table, let
alone pay their rates you want to get paid, and
YouTube university is full of people telling you that their
way is the right way, and it doesn't help you
apply things to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients.

(17:34):
So I've been building studio Land to fill those gaps.
We use structured learning paths, weekly live classes in a
private community of other pros to help you discover how
to turn your technical expertise into a thriving business that
attracts the right clients at the right rates. Try it
out for free. The links in the show notes. So
if you make all of your marketing about really reasonable rates,

(17:58):
fast turn around, you're going to attract artists that really
are valuing that. If you make the marketing about like
the quality of it more so than like the pricing,
then you're going to get people that are more interested
in that. If you make the marketing about the experience
that you have and like the creativity and the collaboration

(18:20):
and and all of that, that's going to attract a
different type of clientele than everybody else. And you know,
and then like when it comes to like those really
big artists, like that's a kind of like a whole
other beast. But again it's like the marketing for them
is more just like the that is the relationships, and
that is where the the word of mouth and like
their constant track record is helping them. Right. The interesting

(18:44):
thing is like for myself, like you know, I am
not up here, but I'm definitely in that like third
layer of like you know, the experience of working with me,
not just like the price or the sound quality. And
that's why like I don't talk about gear or like
mixing really ever, you know what I mean, Like it's
it seems kind of counterintuitive, but like I always talk

(19:04):
about like the relationships that I have with the artists,
like the collaborative, the creative things we've tried this, you know,
the way that I love like the relationships that I
have with them, like funny stories about like us as friends.
You know, like I'm not talking about here's why mixed
chain or whatever, like yeah, here, you know, here's what
I can do to make you know. It's because I'm
trying to make sure that I'm attracting the right people

(19:26):
for my goals. So maybe I should reframe this is that,
like it's not just that the potential clients have a
problem that we can solve. They have to have a
problem that we want to solve, or a problem that
is big enough to justify the kind of income we
want to make. So that's the first principle. It's kind
of a bit of a tangent on that, but I

(19:47):
think it's important. So first principle being they have to
have a problem that you can solve. Second one, and
this is one that I feel like people know but
don't do anything about, and it drives me nuts, is
that client's I can't hire you if they don't know
that you exist, like it's obvious. It's super obvious. But
why is it then so common and infuriating for me

(20:10):
when they are really great producers and engineers that don't
utilize social media. You know, they don't have a website,
they don't do outreaching like star conversations. You know, they
think that if they build it, they will come kind
of thing is going to happen, and it doesn't. You know,
maybe it did in the seventies or something, you know
what I mean, it did it in Field of Dreams
the movie, but like in real life, it doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, and even in the seventies it probably didn't happen.
It was just like a different kind It was a
different kind of networking, right, Like it was if you
were in the music scene in La in the seventies.
Then you met people at parties and you met you know,
people were just in the room and you would meet
artists just hang out in the studio. It was a
different kind of water cooler whatever situation. It wasn't you
didn't need to be on social media because everybody was

(20:54):
in the same you know, in the same spaces really
and also this is like sort of like a tangent.
But like when I was like playing bass with Alex Claire,
like in my scenes, people knew who he was and
I was still doing gigs and I was like meeting
other people. That was like a good word of mouth
sort of generator, because it's like I'm talking about people
ask you what you're doing, you know, and you're with them,

(21:16):
and then they're like, oh, Ben does that. But if
you're not in those kinds of social situations, then you
really have to be more proactive about it.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
So I agree with that. However, I think the issue
was a lot deeper than that. I just had to
like google it to double check because I didn't get
the numbers wrong. Every single day there are one hundred
thousand songs being uploaded to Spotify that doesn't include stuff
it's only to SoundCloud doesn't include stuff it's only up
to YouTube, doesn't in cloud all the you know, pretentious
c Indie bands.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
It does include the new AI bands does.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
And that's a whole other conversation. I don't want to
don't derail me here, sir.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
I'm trying so hard to deal with now.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
But there's like one hundred thousand songs a day coming
out on Spotify. Yeah, in nineteen seventy, I think in
the US there were four thousand albums total release.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
I was gonna guess two thousand.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, in all of nineteen seventy. I think here's like
fifty six hundred singles.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
So there are there's a lot of noise.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Roughly, there's roughly like the amount of songs that came
out in nineteen seventy come out in like an hour
an hour and a half. Now, wow. So that's where
the whole if you build it, they will come thing
just completely falls apart because like everybody's fucking building it,
you know what I mean. Like that's that's the thing.

(22:31):
Like there, if you were one of you know, one
of four thousand albums, one of fifty six hundred songs
that are you know, singles, versus one of three point
six million or whatever, it's a very very different thing.
So like building it is not enough, like the building
in is not enough to make people right.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
And the positive flip side here is that there's if
there're people are releasing so many, so much music every
single day, that there's got to be stuff that you
could find yourself, you know, working.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
With exactly exactly and then that's that's like the positive
thing that I look at it. It's like, if there
are one hundred thousand songs coming out every single day,
there's no reason why one of them can't be yours.
And if you're doing three hundred and sixty.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Five, it's gonna be harder. It's gonna be harder than
ever though still to stick out and like like for
the music to like be memorable remembered. You could still
have had an amazing experience making the music and it
could be an emotional process and it could be meaningful,
but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is going to
find it.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
And yeah, exactly, And that's like the flip side to
the Oh, you know, back in the day, artists didn't
have to do social media and they do, you know,
like yeah, because there was no competition, you know, relative
to what there is now.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Like, well, there was competition, but they were it was
gate kept by the industry. Right once you got past
that gate, it was probably amazing to be an artist
in the nineteen seventies. If you've already been gone past
all the hurdles and now you're like accepted and popular.
Those people are still popular and they're still making it
in on Spotify, right, like whether you're you know, Paul
Simon or you know whatever, Like these people are still

(24:07):
massively streamed today, So that would have been a good time.
It's like the best time to like get into investing
is today, like this, The best time was yesterday and
the second best time is right now.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah. So yeah, well, and I think whatever it is,
but I think the point being is that it is
just fundamentally a different industry and like what works that
doesn't work now. So principal number one, clients need to
have a problem that you can solve, and the emotional
and financial intensity of that problem is going to kind
of like help figure out what that customer precedes value

(24:40):
of the surface is. So like mixing a song for
SoundCloud wrapper versus mixing a song for arg On to
Grande are going to have very different respective perceived values,
not just because of the sound quality. Right, So there's that.
Principal Number two was that they can't hire you if
they don't know that you exist. And number three, which

(25:02):
also ties into why social media is so necessary for
us as producers and engineers, is that people hire people
that they trust. When we moved into the new house.
We needed to get like a plumber to come do something.
Like I could go on Google and search for it,
and if I did, I would probably go by how

(25:25):
many reviews that they have, you know, how how close
they are, Like I would want to make sure that
I'm getting somebody that is not going to screw up
a bigger issue, or more likely, i'd probably ask a friend.
I might ask like the neighbor who they use, right,
And I think that's where like word of mouth does help,
you know, like when you build trust through word of mouth.
Like guess why closing a deal with an artist that

(25:47):
you've met through word of mouth is so much easier
because they trust their friend who hired you before. That
friend your client trusts you. So there's this like inherent
sense of trust being tend it to you. So that's
why word of mouth works so well because them versus
someone that's never met you before, there don't know anything
about you. There's no trust there because not that they

(26:11):
distrust you, but there's just no it's like a neutral
amount of trust. And if you're selling something for fifty bucks,
it's we're going to require a different amount of trust
than selling something for five hundred bucks or five thousand bucks,
you know, or the difference in trust needed when you're
working on a song with a hobbyist versus somebody that

(26:31):
is like serious but still amateur versus somebody that is
like top of their game, and it is very very
important that like everything goes great and that they want
to be able to also like they want to feel
fulfilled too, So you need to build enough trust for
them to actually decide, Okay, this is this is the
right person for me. So that's where social media can

(26:52):
be so helpful, you know, not because you're trying to
build the trust that you know how a compressor works.
You're trying to get them to try us that you
understand that problem that you want to solve for them.
So it's like this three piece, like three step kind
of process where you have to understand what problem you
can solve for them, You have to make them aware

(27:13):
that you exist and that you solve that problem, and
then you have to build their trust so that they
trust you to solve that problem.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Right, we're talking about in the client artist acquisition stage.
We're not talking about like once you're actually working with them,
you know, like I have a lot to say about
like maintaining trust and becoming somebody who's continuously trustworthy that
they'll want to keep working with you over and over
again unless they change their artistic direction.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
Basically, that's a great pay because that's exactly why getting
someone to like come back for a second song is,
like it feels infinitely easier, right.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, I'm working with it right now with an artist
I haven't worked with him, like I guess I worked
with him like a few years ago, but then also
before that, like it had been like a few years,
and it's just like, oh, we know exactly how to
work together because like, yeah, that trust was established when
we first started working together like seven years ago.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
You know.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
It's just like it's so easy because like we just
trust each other and our processes together, you know.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
And that's exactly the thing. You know, Like they've the
reason that they're coming back a second time is because
they have already kind of like gone through those those processes.
They've already they've realized that you solve a problem for them.
They obviously are where that you exist, and they obviously
trust you, right Right. That's why word of mouth is
easier and why getting somebody to come back for a

(28:25):
second song is easier.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
But that's why you got to hold on to your
to your existing clients instead of it's almost even more
important than getting new clients.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
I disagree.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm not saying that new clients aren't important, right, Obviously,
you need to have like you need to have leads, right,
and it's also great for growing what you become, you know,
as like an artist or whatever. But but on a business,
on a fundamental business level, having consistent and repeat clients
is just easier to keep financially, you know. And it's like,

(28:52):
it's more it's a safer bet. I guess just like
that you're going to have recurring revenue.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
And that's where I want to fight you on it,
because it's it's a I think it's a bit of
a false sense of safety because you can't control if
they come back to you or not. You can't control
they keep making music. Sure, and the biggest thing this
and this happens. I'm sure there's a lot of listeners
that well, that's.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Why I hopefully you have several artists that you're working
with at any given moment, right, yes, yes, but also
and hopefully you won't lose all of them at the
same Obviously there's a turnover, right, there's turnover.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, and also just realistically too, like I'm forty, I
want to keep working until I'm you know, one hundred
and ten, right, So like I can't expect I mean,
let's let's say, let's say even if I go to sixty,
Let's say I'm you know, lucky enough to be able
to make it to sixty, right, I would say that,
you know, the likelihood of my clients now wanting to

(29:44):
come back to me again and again enough to sustain
my career for the next twenty years.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
No, it's not going to happen, right, Yeah, but you're
right in that sense. You have to keep the you
have to keep the momentum going, and you have to
continuously have leads so that when there is turnover, there's newer,
better projects happening. You know, it's like a cycle.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
So but here's where this is the big This is
like the biggest thing that I really want to like
get to you in this whole episode is yes, okay
the Carl Yes, stop interrupting me with your good points, Ben,
stop having useful and relevant interjections that that help forward
the narrative. So the fundamental problem is that on the
plus side, all of the positives of like somebody's already

(30:24):
hired you, they can want to keep on coming back
again and again, with all of the benefits of having
somebody that has already worked with you and keeps on
coming back again and again. There's a lot of benefits
of that. But on the flip side, the problem is
that those clients it is extremely difficult to ever raise
your rates because they came in at a particular rate,

(30:45):
and the reason they came in at that particular rate
is because the problem that you solve for them, and
the amount of trust you needed to build to get
them there is really ultimately what led them to saying
yes at whatever price you did, even if you had
like a little bit of a higher rate, like let's
say that you had like a client that was you know,
really really really cheap, didn't really require a lot of

(31:05):
trust to get them in, and then they keep on
coming back for more and more and more and more.
But then you start to get even better at it,
You start to have more creative itches that you're trying
to fulfill that maybe that artist doesn't you know, you
could either keep working with them at that rate that
they came in. You can try to like incrementally raise it,
or you can just like raise it a lot and

(31:26):
just say sorry, bud. Right. And the problem is if
we want to get people that are coming in at
higher rates and staying again and again, then the thing
is we need to figure out. Okay, low price requires
like easy problem, low rate requires low trust. Bigger problems

(31:47):
require bigger trust. But that's what brings like the higher rate.
That is why you know, when we happy existing clients,
like even for myself, like if I have someone that
I've been working with for a long time, like I'm
happy to keep them at an old rate, and then
when I do raise my rates for new clients, I'll
let them know. I'll say, look, last time we were together,

(32:07):
it was x just so you know, like my new
rate for or my rate for new clients now has
gone up quite a bit too. Why. But I love
working with you. I'm just so glad to hea you around.
I love when we work together because we always make
fun music and also you make fun of me a
lot and it makes me feel happy. So I'm happy
to meet you in the middle at ze right. So

(32:30):
I'm still raising my rate for them, but it's like
still not as much as like a new client. So
I can do that, but ultimately it's like if we
want someone to come in at a higher rate and
stay there and like see that as a deal. You know,
making a five hundred dollars client see seven fifty as
like an increase as like a good move is a

(32:54):
lot harder to do than getting somebody that thinks that
it's worth like a thousand dollars. And you say, oh,
I keep that rate seven fifty, they are like, oh
my god, this is a steal, right because that price.
It's not like seven to fifty is expensive or a
seven to fifty is.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Cheap, right, the expectation is different.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, It's it's all relative to like the how big
of a problem that you solve and is it a
technical problem that you're solving and something that really anybody
else can do, or is it like a creative and
emotional problem that you're solving that only you can do.
That's the big decider then of like really what your
prices should be, you know, And I think that's why

(33:34):
rate calculators and tips on how to figure out your rates,
like I think they're all bullshit, you know, because it
doesn't take into consideration like what kind of existential struggle
are you helping that artist with? But it's a fundamentally
just a very different problem to solve, and the pricing

(33:55):
should be based on how much does it mean to
that artist have that problem solved. So when you start
focusing your marketing on and all the messaging in general,
like everything you do, focusing it on like this is
the problem that I help people solve, and this is
like it can be something that is technical, but if

(34:15):
your selling point is something technical, it's always going to
be a race to the bottom and want to get
into AI, Like it's going to be a matter of
time until that process is done by AI for free.
If you make it all about the technical process, like
you're fucked. If you make it about that human connection,
the creativity, the empathy, the existential vulnerability and like exploration

(34:40):
that they have when they're working with you, that is
something that is irreplaceable and that is something that they're
only going to find with you.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, I really like this, but I would love if
you could give me some sort of like real world
example of a problem that you show someone else that
you can solve for them that is worth a higher rate.
What would be something that like Carl does in his
marketing on social media to show an artist, you're gonna
want to hire me to mix this song because it's

(35:08):
gonna be it's gonna be worth this much obviously without
saying it'll be worth this much, but.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah, oh no. The big thing that I say is
like I help artists and producers that get their production
to like the ninety seven percent mark, and they know
that the song has more potential, not just like needing
a mix, like it's almost like it's missing something or
it has too much of something. There's like something just
kind of like off with it. But because they've spend
so much time on it, they just have lost that objectivity.

(35:34):
And I come in not just to like help at
ear can like at ear candy and those kind of things,
but also I'm the one that mixes with the producer's
ear and will help to try to figure out like,
oh man, if if we just cut these two measures
out the flow I'm going from the first chorus into
verse two, or like the bridge a bridge is not

(35:54):
long enough, like we're trying to like build this this
anxiety and we're trying to like get it to like
grow and feel bigger and like feel more intense, and
it's just not quite getting there yet. And I think
it's because, as an objective listener with a lot of
experience doing this, I feel like, oh, we're trying to
like build that tension too quickly, and I think if

(36:14):
we spread this out, or maybe the other way around,
maybe we're like we've like built it up. We're building
it up and then like here's the part where like
the release will feel really good, but that doesn't come
for another eight measures. Like let's chop that out. So
for me, I come in as as a mixing engineer
with a very extensive production experience and listening to a
gazillion songs a year, so I'm able to understand not

(36:37):
just how to translate their ideas into a ridiculously great
sounding mix, but also I can help them to fill
in all those little gaps and kind of like figure
out those little things that they've been that they.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Can't figured it out. Yeah, figured it out. You're a consultant,
and consultants charge a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
I mean that's kind of it, you know, And also
knowing that like what are the big things people hire
me for. It's like it's not even because of like
the quality of the mix. It's because they know I
can't keep my mouth shut if I notice something that
I think is going to make the song better. And
when I say better, I don't mean that in like
some sort of like objective way, or not even like
better in my own subjective way, but I mean closer

(37:15):
to the goal and the vision that they're describing to me.
If I hear something that I think is going to
help take the song closer to that thing that they
described as the finish line, I'm going to do it.
I asked for forgiveness, you know what I mean, But like, yeah,
that's one that's good.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
And the fact that you can't keep your mouth shut
on the flip side, will probably deter some artists from
wanting to work with you, but it's actually for the
best because then you're aligned with the right.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Artists exactly, you know, and like there's nothing objectively right
or wrong about it, Like there's nothing wrong about people
that like artists that have a very very specific clear
vision and they just need somebody to help like like
get the settings right and like capture the right sounds
and that piece together to like make it like a
one to one translation from what's in their head to

(38:00):
what's coming out of the speakers. Nothing objectively wrong with that.
That is just not at all where my heart is
or what I feel is like the best use of
my creativity because I love going into it, like exploring
with the artists, with the producer, trying crazy shit and
failing a lot and occasionally finding something really cool. And

(38:21):
that's what we keep in the song, you know. That's
and the artists that really want that are gonna learn
that about me and realize, like, oh, nobody else really
talks like that. Nobody else. I mean, even if people
do that, they don't talk about it in their marketing.
They're too busy talking about, you know, how to phase
check your floor, tom or whatever, you know, So they

(38:41):
see that like that is like a very you know,
kind of experience that they want to have. It's not
just the price, not just the sound quality. It's like
that experience. And then when you realize, when it's based
on price, it's your price versus their price. When it's quality,
it's the quality of your mix versus quality their mix,
which is like more subjective but like still pretty objective.

(39:04):
But when it's like the experience of working with somebody,
like the emotional reward of working with somebody, that's that's
something that you can very easily compare to like me
versus somebody else.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
And I would say I would go further and say
the taste and opinion, you know what I mean, and
trusting that taste and opinion that it will be best
for your song because we're taste mate, where Like we've
curated taste. We curate taste because we've listened to so
much music and that's what we obsessed about for so
many years. So we've listened to so many records and
we and we understand what makes records, you know what
I mean. And that's like in the end, I guess

(39:37):
if they're paying us the big box, it's for our taste.
It's as opposed to just like do this technical thing
for me, which is just like then you're like a plumber,
you know, or or like whatever. No shame in that,
No shame in that.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
And there's also like I mean, if you want it
to be based on like the technique or like the
technical stuff, like the good thing is there's plenty of
people that are like willing to hire you to do that.
It's just not for me, And I feel like for
a lot of listeners it's probably not for them either,
or they've done that for so long and it just

(40:10):
doesn't scratch the itches like it used to, and the
money is not amazing. So it's like, if you know,
if you're if it's not going to be creatively fulfilling,
it may as well get a job that pays better,
right you know.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
So yeah, well that's a that's a harsh one, but
that's a pill for.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
People like Paul, like I see it. But like that's
why so many producers and engineers end up going into
like real estate, because they can use their social interaction skills,
they can use their charisma, they can help like they're
able to like do the creative searching instead of with music.
It's like with trying to find houses for people having

(40:48):
those conversations, and it's you know, usually better money in
different hours, Like you're not relying on you know, people
coming over to your house for twelve hours a day.
So like it makes sense why people go go that route,
you know, but it's not for me for sure.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Well that's a I think this is a great place
to wrap this episode. Is there anything else you want
to add to this? Because I think that's I thought
I knew it was gonna happen in this episode, but
I learned a lot and uh, thinking about a lot
of things. It's always good when I when I'm coming
out of an episode with you, Carl and I have
my brain starts thinking about things in new ways and tickling.
So hopefully, hopefully the audience is having the same reaction

(41:26):
as me.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
I hope so too. I hope this wasn't like super
boring and just feeling like a soapbox.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
It definitely was a little bit of a soapbox, but
that's okay. But but it wasn't boring.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Okay, It's yeah, this is something that like, I I
don't know, I feel like it's my moral responsibility to
just like beat this into the skull of every producer
and engineer I beat. It's such a pervasive myth, you
know that you just see that big project, but then

(41:56):
like when people get to the other side of that
big project and realize, oh, that didn't really do it? Fuck?
What do I do? You know? Like that's I've seen
too many people with that like deer in headlights sort
of view of their own career and like the future
of their business, and I want to try to nip

(42:17):
it in the bud and.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
All right, yeah, yeah, so let's keep nipping those existential
crises in the bud before they happen, and keep people
working on stuff that brings them joy and their client's joy,
and hopefully some positive good music in the world and
that will stand out in the noise that is Spotify.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Yes, yes, yeah, Ben, I missed you, and I'm glad
to see this.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
To Carl, I am, I am very glad I got
to see you, Carl, and I hope we can get
back into our rhythm and routine, yes, for a little bit.
Agree for at least at least in July.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
Yes, yeah, oh god, and then August is going to.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Be August is going to be bananas for both of us.
So yeah, but for different reasons. Yeah, but exciting.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
That you're the man. I appreciate you. And until next time, Bye, Ben,
Bye Carl.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did.
If anything here resonated with you, please share this or
your favorite episode with a friend.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
At Ben Wallace Music and at Carl Vonner.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Until next time, Bye.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Ben, Bye Carl. That's good. I think the outro is great.

All Episodes

#254 - The Shelf-Life of Major Credits

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#254 - The Shelf-Life of Major Credits