July 22, 2025 • 28 mins
What happens when a successful music producer realizes he’s been working with the wrong people for years? Carl reveals the moment everything changed after his first child was born, and why he now prioritizes client personalities over everything else. The conversation gets deep about energy vampires, family priorities, and a surprising truth about word-of-mouth referrals.
Discover:
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Discover:
- Why Carl went from doing 150 shows a year to being extremely picky about clients after having kids
- The exact moment he realized $50 bar gigs weren’t worth his time or energy anymore
- Why that ridiculously talented Berkeley guitarist everyone knows is actually bad for business
- The surprising reason word-of-mouth referrals can trap you with similar low-quality clients
- How to recognize if you’re being a pushover with difficult clients who love unlimited revisions
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I've met a lot of big professionals right in our industry.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Like we're talking like eight feet people like you know
how taller thing when you say.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Big, Yes, Ben, eight foot engineers, That's exactly what I meant.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to
Secret Sonics, honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to
help you build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Let's get started.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi, Ben, Hi Carl. I missed you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I know I missed you too. How is your last
couple weeks?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You know the real answer to that.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I know the real answer. But there seems like there
were some good moments in there for you too, Carl.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, No, there were a lot of a lot of
good moments.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
There's some dinosaurs, oh yeah, dude, Okay, which are always cool.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I'm not going to complain about anything.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
What I will say, though, is that I went to
the coolest mini golf place ever. I love playing mini golf.
I'm not good at it. It's not like I love
doing it because I'm really good. I really kind of
suck at it, but I just enjoy enjoy it for
whatever reason. And I also enjoy the creativity of like
mini golf course designers, you know what I mean, Like
(01:20):
not that I don't like know any by name obviously,
but I mean like I love when I can go
to a minigolf course and I'm like, oh, this is
this is unique, this is different, this isn't just like,
you know, the same boring stuff. And the one that
we went to was Dinosaur Themes, which is ambitious in
its own right, but it had these like life size
animatronic dinosaurs that like moved and made very loud sounds
(01:46):
and like there was one my favorite one was the
I forget the name of the dinosaur, but it was
the one that in Jurassic Park and the first one
that uh like kills Newman, you know what I mean,
Like the one that has little like laughs and that's
one that has like the flaps to come out and
it like yes, yeah, but it's like this thing is
I don't know, ten feet tall and literally right next
(02:08):
to you at like the putting green part of.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
One of the holes.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So like your back starting to wit and you're like
trying to putt and then all of a sudden, this
ten foot dinosaur screams at you from like three feet
behind your head.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So I had fun. Yeah, it was great. So I'm
happy about that.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And I love that there's just some company out there
that's creating massive animatronic dinosaurs for people for random, various reasons,
Like that's a company that exists on planet Earth.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's so.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And I don't know, I know I've probably told a
few people this very very randomly. I don't think I
ever said this on the podcast, but my one of
my bucket list items. Genuinely, I'm not being like sarcastic
or facetious about this. I would love to have a
three hole mini golf course in my backyard and every
(02:58):
year we redesign it, Like I want to treat that
like my backyard mini golf course, the way that some
people treat their Christmas decoration, you know what I mean,
Like they go like all out and it's like this
like one time a year they do this big thing.
And initially this is like I had this idea first
when I was still like the beginning of producing and
(03:19):
I was like, oh my god, my dream studio will
have a mini golf course out back, so that way
like between takes, you know, while we're like doing editing
or like if the you know, they need a break,
they can just go out back and like play mini
golf and that'd be such a like add thing we
can all do. And now that I am fully remote,
the chances of me playing mini golf with a client
in between takes is a little to none. But it
(03:42):
doesn't stop me for money.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Till the metaverse has off. But yeah, yeah, yeah, basically.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, so I don't know if I'll have like animatronic dinosaurs,
but I don't know. That's just a little, a little
dream that I have that someday I'll be.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Like it's very specific and very quirky.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, anyway, on that note, without further ado, yeah, we're
going to do no so one quick piece of housekeeping,
I think for all the listeners. So we are trying
our best to get a couple episodes ahead. The next
couple of weeks are going to be banana bonkers for
both of us. I know, like this is the Jewish
holiday season coming up, so it's gonna be kind of
(04:16):
crazy for Ben.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Not exactly, but yours is more interesting. Well, it's just vacation.
It's just like kids don't have school, but your thing
is way more.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yes, yeah, this is July seventeenth as we're recording this,
and our third child is due on the ninth of August,
so it's like any day now. So we're gonna try
to get a couple ahead. If you don't hear from us,
we haven't died or like, you know, fled.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, assume good things.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Assume good like the planet or anything.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, we're doing our best here, you know, people at
our stage in life, like it's just really really hard
to commit to that every single week thing. We do
our best, and we are doing our best. But we
in this season, episodes will be a little more sparse,
and I think we're like aiming for buy a month,
like you know, twice a month or so for a
little bit and then we'll and then hopefully we'll get
our groove back on, you know, once everyone's settled.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, I think this like later this fall, it'll be
a little bit more predictable and like especially when you
know kids are back in school and yep, all that exactly.
But let's go into today's topic, Now today's topic, today's topic.
I set out an email to my mailing list a
couple of days ago that apparently spark something with Bet
(05:32):
and made him want to talk about this together.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
And the email was about.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
How I put so much of a priority on the
personalities of my clients, even more so than the style
of music that they make, or you know, even like
what specific role I have in the project. And that
is for me because number one, I enjoy being flexible
and you know, having different, different roles and like, you know,
(05:59):
doing different cosom mus but more specifically because you know,
I'm forty, I've got two kids and a third one
arriving imminently, and I don't have the time or energy
or patience to deal with clients that I don't actually
get along with and like and for a long time,
(06:22):
like this is something that I really started really started
doubling down on, you know, mentally or emotionally whatever, after
our first child was born, because up until that point,
you know, it was just myself and my wife, and
we're both very independent, so I just was working all
the time I was doing I was still a session
drummer primarily, and I'm like a gigging drummer, and I
(06:42):
was doing one hundred, one hundred and fifty shows a
year and that was great. It was awesome as soon
as a you know, a family started becoming a thing
all of a sudden, those like fifty dollars bar gigs,
you know, like when you're that sound great when you're nineteen,
when you're in you're early to mid thirties at the time,
like that.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
No, Like I don't, I don't want to do that.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
And it's not just the money, but it's also like
a lot of the professionalism and the personalities of those
kind of clients. And I really started making it more
and more of a priority that what I do work
with somebody, whether it's as you know, as their mixing engineer,
or even with the students that I take on for coaching,
it's like, I want to make sure that you know,
(07:27):
we're a really good fit and not just good fit
for the service. I want to provide a good fit
for me enjoying actually providing that service.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, and you said it even better in the email.
It's like there's like two types of artists or clients
that you're working with. They are the type that they
give you energy, and then there's the type that take
away your energy. They drain you of your of your
of your energy. And I think that's like a really
really good paradigm because it's something that I don't know
(07:58):
if I think about it that much, I don't think
I've ever labeled it quite like that, but I think
it's a really really astute comment. And there are clients
that it's like you try to like say like, oh,
these are the kinds of things I don't want to do,
and these are the kinds of things I do want
to do, But sometimes it's just as simple as like,
oh no, this is life affirming. This makes me feel
joy and makes me want to get up and I
(08:19):
have energy to get up in the morning and go
do this work. And then there's there's artists that even
if it's like what you want to do, maybe it
is just like maybe you want to mix and it's
a mixing gig, but there's something about the project that
just like makes you want to like, yeah, you know,
or I'd go back to bed.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I mean, maybe a good way to think about this
if you haven't had this experience personally yet. But like
if you think about you know, there are plenty of
like the kind of classic Berkeley guitarist is kind of
like the person I have in my head where it's
like somebody that is a ridiculously phenomenal player. They're so
(08:53):
technically gifted, they can play anything you put in front
of them, but they are just like such a dick
and they're so full of themselves, and like having them
in the room is exhausting, and there becomes a point where,
like when they're the best guitar player you know, or
they're the only really good guitar player you know, like
you put up with it. But then when you start
to realize that, oh, there are a lot of other
(09:13):
people that are really really great guitarists and oh wait,
I'd like being in their room with them, all of
a sudden, that first guitarist becomes a lot less desirable
for your project, right, And I think that's something that
you know, we're all going to go through a stage
as engineers or as producers where you know, we're going
to be working with clients that make great music but
(09:33):
are just like a pain to work with and.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
From parks and rec the worst you can catch my
catch my reference, Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes, thank you Hio.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So that's exactly that is the joy in that wears off,
you know, because I think when you're young, you're excited
by the fact that you get to you know, you're
working with this like great musician or you're working with
this great songwriter. You're working on this great music.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
You really love and we're working in this band.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
In this band.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, and over time, as you get more experienced, it
looses its appeal. And then you know, as we get
older and we have not just like, oh, you have
more responsibilities, goes No, we're marrid and we have kids,
but also like, we have other priorities and we have
other things that we want to spend our time and
energy on. So then you know, we go from you know,
(10:23):
being happy with doing sixteen hour days every day to
all of a sudden being like, I want to be
there for my kids, I want to be present, I
want to be around, and you start realizing that those
people that completely just drain your energy, you know, like
when you're when you're in paid really well, when you're
younger or the music is good, you can put up
(10:43):
with that because then you're done with your session, you
go home, you're by yourself. You know, you'll watch a
Marvel movie, drink some whiskey, you're happy, whatever. But like
now with kids, it's like, no, I love my kids
so much. You love your kids so much, but kids
are fucking draining, you know what I mean. So, like
I already have the existential exhaustion of having kids and
(11:07):
like trying to be a good parent and trying to
raise them and trying to you.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Know, yeah, having attention for your kids or requires you
to like not be over stimulated, you know, like when
you're when you come home from like one of these
full day session where you're just like brain has been
activated and just like and then you get home and
then the kids are vying for attention and you just
can't think anymore. You're not a patient, mindful, present parent. Yeah,
And that is the worst.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, And I think that's when this whole idea of
you know, clients drain your energy or like give you energy,
that's when it becomes so important because I know there
are other things outside of music that I need energy
for and I want energy for, So I don't want
to let somebody else take that energy that I have
(11:52):
that I want to give to the family. You know
or to like the bigger goal set that we have
as a family. It became very important to me what
we've had our first kid nine years ago, and it's
just kind of continuously become you know, higher and higher,
not just higher, look perty list, Like it's been like
pulling away, you know, it's been just like getting.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Further and further and further from whatever.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Like the second consideration is because it just becomes almost everything.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, your time is the most precious thing, most most
valuable thing. Yeah, yeah, you got to make it worth
it while we're on this planet, and just like every day,
you know what I mean. Like for me, it was
more about like the I understand the concept that like
every day you know, is limited, and like your time
is limited and you should be working on like you know,
stuff that gives you joy and you feel aligned with,
but like just like to have energy to get through
(12:41):
every single day, you need to be you need stuff
that gives you caffeine and not stuff that like you know,
makes you drowsy, so otherwise it'll be so difficult. Yeah yeah,
but again, like like you said, there's also a time
at the beginning where you just take anything you can
get and it's fun and like you still get energy
from that dick guitar player's who's not not nice, but
like you're just happy to be in the room and
(13:03):
like seeing somebody crush a guitar solo. Yeah, so that varies,
you know that that changes from from season to season.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, I do want to say that.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I'm sure a lot of people listening are thinking, yeah, well, Carl,
that's all great, but what if those you know, those
annoying clients are the ones that actually pay better?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Right, So this is fire all your clients and don't
worry about making money, like it's not important, you know
what I mean. There's so there's ramen soup. You know,
there's they're they're instant ramen.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So clearly Bend's being sarcastic. But I think, like, for me,
this is why, like if we keep on following this
at the next like logical step, this is why I
put so much thought and energy into lead generation because
everything is supply and demand, right, Like the supply of
(13:54):
how much energy that I have doesn't change, if anything,
it gets smaller, right, So I want to make sure
that I'm generating demand for what it is that I do.
And if we continue to just rely on word of
mouth and kind of passively sit back and see who
(14:14):
knocks on our door, and then you know, only take
the clients that we really like working with. Then yeah,
you're you're taking like a finite demand.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
There's only like so many people that already know who
you are and already like want to work with you.
And if that's already barely enough to keep you afloat,
and then you're saying, well, let's filter out the ones
that we don't want to work with, and then there's
an even smaller number, well, then yeah, you're in trouble. Right,
that's not going to work. Which is why again, like
I put so much thought and energy into for myself
(14:43):
and also for all of my students, and why I'm
listen to the podcast. You're not surprised when I say this.
And I keep on like trying to get people to
do outreach and be thoughtful about like social media and
all these things, because you need to have enough people
knocking on your door that you can say, know to
all the ones that don't give you energy, and there's
(15:04):
still a high enough number of people that they give
you the energy and they pay you.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, and I think even if like the word of
mouth thing works, it is a much longer process. Right
by the time you've been working long enough to get
enough people to refer to, refer to, refer to, fer
I could take like years before you feel like you're
working with clients that you fully align with and are
happy and give you energy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And it doesn't last forever, you know, because if you
because anybody like I mean, I've met a lot of
big professionals right in our industry.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Like like we're talking like eight feet people like you know,
like how taller are Then when you.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Say big yes, Ben, eight foot engineers, that's exactly what
I meant.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It's swear. My brain went, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I honestly I wish I was wearing my bigfoot shirt
and I would just like stand up and show you
this one's actually like yeah, like wolves on a on
a mountain, that's pretty rad. But what I was trying
to say is before you made a dad joke that
I probably would have made if you were telling the story,
So like, I totally empathize with that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I do, I'll do. But it was a relatable, the
very relatable I was thinking it too.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Lots of big producers.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, yeah, buzz of people, and like everybody goes through
at some point those seasons of feast and famine, you know,
because if if you're relying on just word of mouth,
it's they're gonna have feast or famine because there's no
controllable lead flow. So I think that's really the core
of you know, for myself, when i'm what I'm trying
(16:31):
to get people to understand, like, no, you need to
be proactive, you need to be generating this demand. It's
one thing to say, oh, yeah, you got to get
you know, generate demands, you get more clients, but that's
kind of missing the point. Really, the underlying point is
generating enough demand so that there are so many people
that are interested in working with you that you can
say no and feel confident about it, because saying no
(16:53):
to a client that's willing to pay you is a
really hard thing for a lot of producers and engineers
to do, both emotionally and also like financially. You know,
everybody goes through those times where we have to say
yes to something even if we don't want to do it,
just because we don't have to buy food, we have
to pay their rent. You know, and this is exactly
(17:14):
why I push so hard for people to be proactive
so that way we don't get stuck in that cycle.
One of the things I've noticed over the past twenty
years being in the industry.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Is that audio school usually.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Leaves most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,
you learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep,
but they probably won't teach you how to stand out
and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording. I appreciate what you bring to the table,
let alone pay their rates. You want to get paid,
and YouTube university is full of people telling you that
their way is the right way, and it doesn't help
(17:47):
you apply things to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients.
So I've been building studio land to fill those gaps.
We use structured learning paths weekly a live classes in
a private community of other pros to help you discover
how it's your technical expertise into a thriving business that
attracts the right clients at the right rates.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Try it out for free the links in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah. I think also there's like a psychological element here too.
Of if you're in a mindset of you're proactively seeking
the best possible artists clients to work with, then you're
already in like a go getter mode, and you're probably
gonna find people that are go getter also, and that's
gonna it'll be like a cycle, a good cycle that
will make everybody more energetic. Like you have energy, you
(18:31):
find people with more energy energy, and then like it's
just like a virtuous cycle. Yeah, that's gonna be As
opposed to word of mouth, you're just like kind of
waiting around with the phone to ring. That's like a
very passive state, and so like maybe the people that
are finding you are also a little bit more passive.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Also, Well, I would say this just because you're proactive
in finding new clients and starting new conversations, that does
not mean that word of mouth is not going to happen, right,
Oh yeah, so like no, for sure, you like for sure,
that's but it's like about waiting for the phone to
ring versus oh yeah, yeah, you know, saying this that
kind of to the listeners too, where it's like okay, well,
if you're already getting word of mouth, a lot of
people that are like interested in working with you and
(19:07):
like you enough to want to work with you, then
clearly you're doing something right. So now it's just a
question of Okay, well, let's get more people to get
to know us and want to shout us from the rooftops.
And the thing that I think we everybody sees when
I say this out loud, but like a lot of
people never really sat down and thought about explicitly before,
(19:28):
is the fact that your clients are going to recommend
similar clients. So if you are working with clients that
are just they're doing it as a hobby, they play
it like open mic nights and like to them like
that's like that that's the extent of their goal, Like
they're just trying to get their friends to think that
they're cool. The people that they hang out with are
(19:49):
probably going to be in that same boat. They're probably
going to be similar budget. I mean, do you think
about it, Like, I'm sure there are going to be
some very very very very rare exceptions, but like generally speaking,
if you work with somebody that is just like a
for fun hobbyist, the likelihood of them recommending a really great,
you know, like next tier client to you is little
(20:13):
to none, because even if they are friends with them,
put yourself in their shoes. If you're in that like
next tier up artist and you get a recommendation from
somebody that you know that is just like a hobbyist,
you're not going to take that recommendation seriously because you'd
be like, oh, well, that's that's a kind.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Of artist that this guy works with. You know.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So word of mouth is not always a good thing.
It can kind of perpetuate a cycle of boxes you
and it boxes you in, and it if you work
with a whole bunch of emo rappers or something.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
I'm just making this up.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Like, if you work with with emo rappers and they
love working with you, and they recommend you to their friends,
the other artists are could most likely be other emo rappers,
and like, if you love that, if that's what you
want to do, then Buckyheat, keep doing that. But if
your heart is in indie or in pop or in
you know, metalcore folk or whatever, it's very unlikely that
(21:07):
not just like level of seriousness, but also like stylistically
and I think also personality wise, it's very unlikely that
they're going to recommend you to somebody that is like
outside of what they're like, So if you have a
bunch of clients that Yeah, if we're working with clients
that are like either really overbearing or like really bad communicators,
(21:29):
or they don't respect your time like generally speaking, uh,
what's supposed to phrase like like recommends like you know,
so like there is very unlikely that somebody that is
you know, very unprofessional, doesn't you know, treat you well
and it's just kind of like an ass It's very
unlikely that they're going to be surrounded by a bunch
(21:51):
of other artists that are really respectful and really kind
and like really driven, you know, Like it's not impossible, No,
it's it's a lot more likely that if you have
clients that are really driven and also really thoughtful and
respect your boundaries, there's a good chance they're probably friends
with other people that are also really driven and have
(22:12):
they respect boundaries and they're they're really good communicators and
all those things.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
That's absolutely true. Yeah. Again, it's like we were talking
about the virtuous cycle, there's like the negative cycle also
the vicious cycle. Yeah, so you get both of them
and like you know, one feeds the other. So I
wanted to ask you Carl, Like, how do you break
those vicious cycles to create virtuous cycles when it comes
to finding clients artists that are giving you energy and
(22:36):
not sucking it away.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Honestly, it's a numbers game. That's the only the only
real answer is it's a numbers game of just trying
to get as many conversations started as possible and getting
as many reps in of being able to get somebody's
vibe as early as possible. You know, like in a way,
this is similar to somebody that's like, you know, how
(22:58):
do we get really in shape exercise and eat well?
What I mean, Like it's on paper, it's not hard
to do. In action, in willpower, in dedication.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
It's a lot harder. You know.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That's but but really it's it's it's that simple. It's
just getting enough conversations started with people that you can
see those differences. Kind of like when I was talking
about the guitarists, like the you know, the really really
talented but like awful person guitarists that we all we
all knew in college. Right when you only know them,
(23:31):
it's easier to justify working with them. But once you
start to meet a lot more people and other people
that are just as talented, but maybe also have other
qualities that you're looking for, like being driven, taking constructive criticism, well,
being flexible with ideas, being great communicators, supporting other people,
like all those things. Once you meet more people and
you realize that there's there are more qualities that you
(23:53):
can look for, the better you are at recognizing, oh,
this person does not respect matter. This person is just
like only cares about vanity metrics. They just want this
for the fame or whatever. It's as a muscle you
have to build, and the only way to build it
is by doing it and just starting those conversations and
having a lot and being wrong and like misjudging people
(24:16):
because you're like trying to kind of calibrate.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
That totally and mistakes are great. I want to kind
of like try to wrap this episode up, and I
want to leave the listeners with a question what you
talked about in your email or blog posts? I mean
it was really a blog post just happened to have
been an email. But you're saying, like, use your gut
and just like make a list, like this client gives
(24:38):
me joy, gives me energy, This client takes away my energy.
Sucks away my energy. What I'd like to propose is
like a thought experiment for the listeners is to like
a do that and then just see what those people
that give you energy have in common and how you
can like make a create like an avatar of like
the kinds of artists you want to work with, and
how you can I guess, promote yourself on Instagram or
(25:04):
however to try to draw in those kinds of conversations
with people that match that sort of avatar. That's kind
of like something I should be thinking about more. And
I would like to encourage the audience to the listeners
to think about that as well. What do you think
about that, Carl? Is that good? Is that a good
like little exercise homework assignment for the class?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah? I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I would maybe refine it a little bit and say
that it's not just about, like, you know, how do
you promote that you know online? I think it's more
a question of figuring out, you know, those people that
really do respect you, that really like are great collaborators.
Are all those people that have those positive qualities the
clients that you've worked with that have those positive qualities
(25:46):
that you really like? Ask yourself, like well, what do
they like about me? You know, what is the thing
about me that makes someone to keep coming back? Because
it's I always say this, like it's not just going
to be the Sonics, like because they can get a
great sounding mix anywhere, they can get you know, a
great guitar player, anywhere, whatever, whatever you happen to be doing.
It's like, well, what are the things about me that
(26:07):
they really like? Because like if once you look at
that and then you start to maybe also think about
those awful clients and what do they like about you?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yeah, they like that.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's exactly what I know, because that's the thing that's like,
oh they and those are your like bad personality traits
that you need to work on well or like we're
not necessarily bad personally trusts, but like bad business decisions
you're making perhaps.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, well, and things you don't want to highlight, like
I would say probably, I mean this is gonna maybe
hit home for a lot of people. But I feel
like those awful clients probably love you because you're a
bit of a pushover, you know, and like they keep
on asking you for more things and you get frustrated
about it, and you like get really annoyed by it,
(26:50):
but you do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
You don't you don't ever put up the guardrails.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
So you just kind of like do seventeen rounds of
you know, meaningless revisions exactly, and then get really mad
about it and like get grumpy and it ruins your day.
But because you don't stop them, they love the fact
that they can keep on coming back, and like they
have this like infinite flexibility, you know, or the fact
that like you take on a project because you need
(27:15):
the money and that it's like a really low rate,
and they just really love the fact that they can
afford you even though like you're miserable.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
So it's a question of like figuring out, what are
the things that your best clients that you really love
working with, what are the qualities that they like about you,
And then like you're not to say it like your
worst clients, but like the others, what are the things
that they like about you? And that's going to help
you to figure out what to showcase and what not
to showcase on your website, on your social media and
(27:45):
all those things.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, or things that you should maybe put up
guardrails about exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Which is probably like the first the first place to
start for most.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, from tot of us, it's like when they put
like a die on something to like highlight issues. I
don't know exact something medical where they I don't know
what I'm talking about. Just shut me up now, Carl.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
No, you're you're the man, But you know what, I
will shut you up and I will say that was
a great episode.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Likewise, Bye Ben, Bye Carl. We hope you enjoyed this
conversation as much as we did. If anything here resonated
with you, please share this or your favorite episode with
a friend.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Bonner. Until next time,
Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
I've met a lot of big professionals right in our industry.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Like we're talking like eight feet people like you know
how taller thing when you say.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Big, Yes, Ben, eight foot engineers, That's exactly what I meant.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to
Secret Sonics, honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to
help you build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Let's get started.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi, Ben, Hi Carl. I missed you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I know I missed you too. How is your last
couple weeks?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
You know the real answer to that.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I know the real answer. But there seems like there
were some good moments in there for you too, Carl.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, No, there were a lot of a lot of
good moments.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
There's some dinosaurs, oh yeah, dude, Okay, which are always cool.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I'm not going to complain about anything.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
What I will say, though, is that I went to
the coolest mini golf place ever. I love playing mini golf.
I'm not good at it. It's not like I love
doing it because I'm really good. I really kind of
suck at it, but I just enjoy enjoy it for
whatever reason. And I also enjoy the creativity of like
mini golf course designers, you know what I mean, Like
(01:20):
not that I don't like know any by name obviously,
but I mean like I love when I can go
to a minigolf course and I'm like, oh, this is
this is unique, this is different, this isn't just like,
you know, the same boring stuff. And the one that
we went to was Dinosaur Themes, which is ambitious in
its own right, but it had these like life size
animatronic dinosaurs that like moved and made very loud sounds
(01:46):
and like there was one my favorite one was the
I forget the name of the dinosaur, but it was
the one that in Jurassic Park and the first one
that uh like kills Newman, you know what I mean,
Like the one that has little like laughs and that's
one that has like the flaps to come out and
it like yes, yeah, but it's like this thing is
I don't know, ten feet tall and literally right next
(02:08):
to you at like the putting green part of.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
One of the holes.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So like your back starting to wit and you're like
trying to putt and then all of a sudden, this
ten foot dinosaur screams at you from like three feet
behind your head.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So I had fun. Yeah, it was great. So I'm
happy about that.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And I love that there's just some company out there
that's creating massive animatronic dinosaurs for people for random, various reasons,
Like that's a company that exists on planet Earth.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's so.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And I don't know, I know I've probably told a
few people this very very randomly. I don't think I
ever said this on the podcast, but my one of
my bucket list items. Genuinely, I'm not being like sarcastic
or facetious about this. I would love to have a
three hole mini golf course in my backyard and every
(02:58):
year we redesign it, Like I want to treat that
like my backyard mini golf course, the way that some
people treat their Christmas decoration, you know what I mean,
Like they go like all out and it's like this
like one time a year they do this big thing.
And initially this is like I had this idea first
when I was still like the beginning of producing and
(03:19):
I was like, oh my god, my dream studio will
have a mini golf course out back, so that way
like between takes, you know, while we're like doing editing
or like if the you know, they need a break,
they can just go out back and like play mini
golf and that'd be such a like add thing we
can all do. And now that I am fully remote,
the chances of me playing mini golf with a client
in between takes is a little to none. But it
(03:42):
doesn't stop me for money.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Till the metaverse has off. But yeah, yeah, yeah, basically.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, so I don't know if I'll have like animatronic dinosaurs,
but I don't know. That's just a little, a little
dream that I have that someday I'll be.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Like it's very specific and very quirky.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, anyway, on that note, without further ado, yeah, we're
going to do no so one quick piece of housekeeping,
I think for all the listeners. So we are trying
our best to get a couple episodes ahead. The next
couple of weeks are going to be banana bonkers for
both of us. I know, like this is the Jewish
holiday season coming up, so it's gonna be kind of
(04:16):
crazy for Ben.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Not exactly, but yours is more interesting. Well, it's just vacation.
It's just like kids don't have school, but your thing
is way more.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yes, yeah, this is July seventeenth as we're recording this,
and our third child is due on the ninth of August,
so it's like any day now. So we're gonna try
to get a couple ahead. If you don't hear from us,
we haven't died or like, you know, fled.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, assume good things.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Assume good like the planet or anything.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, we're doing our best here, you know, people at
our stage in life, like it's just really really hard
to commit to that every single week thing. We do
our best, and we are doing our best. But we
in this season, episodes will be a little more sparse,
and I think we're like aiming for buy a month,
like you know, twice a month or so for a
little bit and then we'll and then hopefully we'll get
our groove back on, you know, once everyone's settled.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, I think this like later this fall, it'll be
a little bit more predictable and like especially when you
know kids are back in school and yep, all that exactly.
But let's go into today's topic, Now today's topic, today's topic.
I set out an email to my mailing list a
couple of days ago that apparently spark something with Bet
(05:32):
and made him want to talk about this together.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
And the email was about.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
How I put so much of a priority on the
personalities of my clients, even more so than the style
of music that they make, or you know, even like
what specific role I have in the project. And that
is for me because number one, I enjoy being flexible
and you know, having different, different roles and like, you know,
(05:59):
doing different cosom mus but more specifically because you know,
I'm forty, I've got two kids and a third one
arriving imminently, and I don't have the time or energy
or patience to deal with clients that I don't actually
get along with and like and for a long time,
(06:22):
like this is something that I really started really started
doubling down on, you know, mentally or emotionally whatever, after
our first child was born, because up until that point,
you know, it was just myself and my wife, and
we're both very independent, so I just was working all
the time I was doing I was still a session
drummer primarily, and I'm like a gigging drummer, and I
(06:42):
was doing one hundred, one hundred and fifty shows a
year and that was great. It was awesome as soon
as a you know, a family started becoming a thing
all of a sudden, those like fifty dollars bar gigs,
you know, like when you're that sound great when you're nineteen,
when you're in you're early to mid thirties at the time,
like that.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
No, Like I don't, I don't want to do that.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
And it's not just the money, but it's also like
a lot of the professionalism and the personalities of those
kind of clients. And I really started making it more
and more of a priority that what I do work
with somebody, whether it's as you know, as their mixing engineer,
or even with the students that I take on for coaching,
it's like, I want to make sure that you know,
(07:27):
we're a really good fit and not just good fit
for the service. I want to provide a good fit
for me enjoying actually providing that service.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, and you said it even better in the email.
It's like there's like two types of artists or clients
that you're working with. They are the type that they
give you energy, and then there's the type that take
away your energy. They drain you of your of your
of your energy. And I think that's like a really
really good paradigm because it's something that I don't know
(07:58):
if I think about it that much, I don't think
I've ever labeled it quite like that, but I think
it's a really really astute comment. And there are clients
that it's like you try to like say like, oh,
these are the kinds of things I don't want to do,
and these are the kinds of things I do want
to do, But sometimes it's just as simple as like,
oh no, this is life affirming. This makes me feel
joy and makes me want to get up and I
(08:19):
have energy to get up in the morning and go
do this work. And then there's there's artists that even
if it's like what you want to do, maybe it
is just like maybe you want to mix and it's
a mixing gig, but there's something about the project that
just like makes you want to like, yeah, you know,
or I'd go back to bed.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I mean, maybe a good way to think about this
if you haven't had this experience personally yet. But like
if you think about you know, there are plenty of
like the kind of classic Berkeley guitarist is kind of
like the person I have in my head where it's
like somebody that is a ridiculously phenomenal player. They're so
(08:53):
technically gifted, they can play anything you put in front
of them, but they are just like such a dick
and they're so full of themselves, and like having them
in the room is exhausting, and there becomes a point where,
like when they're the best guitar player you know, or
they're the only really good guitar player you know, like
you put up with it. But then when you start
to realize that, oh, there are a lot of other
(09:13):
people that are really really great guitarists and oh wait,
I'd like being in their room with them, all of
a sudden, that first guitarist becomes a lot less desirable
for your project, right, And I think that's something that
you know, we're all going to go through a stage
as engineers or as producers where you know, we're going
to be working with clients that make great music but
(09:33):
are just like a pain to work with and.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
From parks and rec the worst you can catch my
catch my reference, Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes, thank you Hio.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So that's exactly that is the joy in that wears off,
you know, because I think when you're young, you're excited
by the fact that you get to you know, you're
working with this like great musician or you're working with
this great songwriter. You're working on this great music.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
You really love and we're working in this band.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
In this band.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, and over time, as you get more experienced, it
looses its appeal. And then you know, as we get
older and we have not just like, oh, you have
more responsibilities, goes No, we're marrid and we have kids,
but also like, we have other priorities and we have
other things that we want to spend our time and
energy on. So then you know, we go from you know,
(10:23):
being happy with doing sixteen hour days every day to
all of a sudden being like, I want to be
there for my kids, I want to be present, I
want to be around, and you start realizing that those
people that completely just drain your energy, you know, like
when you're when you're in paid really well, when you're
younger or the music is good, you can put up
(10:43):
with that because then you're done with your session, you
go home, you're by yourself. You know, you'll watch a
Marvel movie, drink some whiskey, you're happy, whatever. But like
now with kids, it's like, no, I love my kids
so much. You love your kids so much, but kids
are fucking draining, you know what I mean. So, like
I already have the existential exhaustion of having kids and
(11:07):
like trying to be a good parent and trying to
raise them and trying to you.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Know, yeah, having attention for your kids or requires you
to like not be over stimulated, you know, like when
you're when you come home from like one of these
full day session where you're just like brain has been
activated and just like and then you get home and
then the kids are vying for attention and you just
can't think anymore. You're not a patient, mindful, present parent. Yeah,
And that is the worst.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, And I think that's when this whole idea of
you know, clients drain your energy or like give you energy,
that's when it becomes so important because I know there
are other things outside of music that I need energy
for and I want energy for, So I don't want
to let somebody else take that energy that I have
(11:52):
that I want to give to the family. You know
or to like the bigger goal set that we have
as a family. It became very important to me what
we've had our first kid nine years ago, and it's
just kind of continuously become you know, higher and higher,
not just higher, look perty list, Like it's been like
pulling away, you know, it's been just like getting.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Further and further and further from whatever.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Like the second consideration is because it just becomes almost everything.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, your time is the most precious thing, most most
valuable thing. Yeah, yeah, you got to make it worth
it while we're on this planet, and just like every day,
you know what I mean. Like for me, it was
more about like the I understand the concept that like
every day you know, is limited, and like your time
is limited and you should be working on like you know,
stuff that gives you joy and you feel aligned with,
but like just like to have energy to get through
(12:41):
every single day, you need to be you need stuff
that gives you caffeine and not stuff that like you know,
makes you drowsy, so otherwise it'll be so difficult. Yeah yeah,
but again, like like you said, there's also a time
at the beginning where you just take anything you can
get and it's fun and like you still get energy
from that dick guitar player's who's not not nice, but
like you're just happy to be in the room and
(13:03):
like seeing somebody crush a guitar solo. Yeah, so that varies,
you know that that changes from from season to season.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, I do want to say that.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I'm sure a lot of people listening are thinking, yeah, well, Carl,
that's all great, but what if those you know, those
annoying clients are the ones that actually pay better?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Right, So this is fire all your clients and don't
worry about making money, like it's not important, you know
what I mean. There's so there's ramen soup. You know,
there's they're they're instant ramen.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So clearly Bend's being sarcastic. But I think, like, for me,
this is why, like if we keep on following this
at the next like logical step, this is why I
put so much thought and energy into lead generation because
everything is supply and demand, right, Like the supply of
(13:54):
how much energy that I have doesn't change, if anything,
it gets smaller, right, So I want to make sure
that I'm generating demand for what it is that I do.
And if we continue to just rely on word of
mouth and kind of passively sit back and see who
(14:14):
knocks on our door, and then you know, only take
the clients that we really like working with. Then yeah,
you're you're taking like a finite demand.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
There's only like so many people that already know who
you are and already like want to work with you.
And if that's already barely enough to keep you afloat,
and then you're saying, well, let's filter out the ones
that we don't want to work with, and then there's
an even smaller number, well, then yeah, you're in trouble. Right,
that's not going to work. Which is why again, like
I put so much thought and energy into for myself
(14:43):
and also for all of my students, and why I'm
listen to the podcast. You're not surprised when I say this.
And I keep on like trying to get people to
do outreach and be thoughtful about like social media and
all these things, because you need to have enough people
knocking on your door that you can say, know to
all the ones that don't give you energy, and there's
(15:04):
still a high enough number of people that they give
you the energy and they pay you.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, and I think even if like the word of
mouth thing works, it is a much longer process. Right
by the time you've been working long enough to get
enough people to refer to, refer to, refer to, fer
I could take like years before you feel like you're
working with clients that you fully align with and are
happy and give you energy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And it doesn't last forever, you know, because if you
because anybody like I mean, I've met a lot of
big professionals right in our industry.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Like like we're talking like eight feet people like you know,
like how taller are Then when you.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Say big yes, Ben, eight foot engineers, that's exactly what
I meant.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It's swear. My brain went, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I honestly I wish I was wearing my bigfoot shirt
and I would just like stand up and show you
this one's actually like yeah, like wolves on a on
a mountain, that's pretty rad. But what I was trying
to say is before you made a dad joke that
I probably would have made if you were telling the story,
So like, I totally empathize with that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I do, I'll do. But it was a relatable, the
very relatable I was thinking it too.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Lots of big producers.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, yeah, buzz of people, and like everybody goes through
at some point those seasons of feast and famine, you know,
because if if you're relying on just word of mouth,
it's they're gonna have feast or famine because there's no
controllable lead flow. So I think that's really the core
of you know, for myself, when i'm what I'm trying
(16:31):
to get people to understand, like, no, you need to
be proactive, you need to be generating this demand. It's
one thing to say, oh, yeah, you got to get
you know, generate demands, you get more clients, but that's
kind of missing the point. Really, the underlying point is
generating enough demand so that there are so many people
that are interested in working with you that you can
say no and feel confident about it, because saying no
(16:53):
to a client that's willing to pay you is a
really hard thing for a lot of producers and engineers
to do, both emotionally and also like financially. You know,
everybody goes through those times where we have to say
yes to something even if we don't want to do it,
just because we don't have to buy food, we have
to pay their rent. You know, and this is exactly
(17:14):
why I push so hard for people to be proactive
so that way we don't get stuck in that cycle.
One of the things I've noticed over the past twenty
years being in the industry.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Is that audio school usually.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Leaves most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,
you learn how to rewire a patch bay or sleep,
but they probably won't teach you how to stand out
and attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion
for recording. I appreciate what you bring to the table,
let alone pay their rates. You want to get paid,
and YouTube university is full of people telling you that
their way is the right way, and it doesn't help
(17:47):
you apply things to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients.
So I've been building studio land to fill those gaps.
We use structured learning paths weekly a live classes in
a private community of other pros to help you discover
how it's your technical expertise into a thriving business that
attracts the right clients at the right rates.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Try it out for free the links in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah. I think also there's like a psychological element here too.
Of if you're in a mindset of you're proactively seeking
the best possible artists clients to work with, then you're
already in like a go getter mode, and you're probably
gonna find people that are go getter also, and that's
gonna it'll be like a cycle, a good cycle that
will make everybody more energetic. Like you have energy, you
(18:31):
find people with more energy energy, and then like it's
just like a virtuous cycle. Yeah, that's gonna be As
opposed to word of mouth, you're just like kind of
waiting around with the phone to ring. That's like a
very passive state, and so like maybe the people that
are finding you are also a little bit more passive.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Also, Well, I would say this just because you're proactive
in finding new clients and starting new conversations, that does
not mean that word of mouth is not going to happen, right,
Oh yeah, so like no, for sure, you like for sure,
that's but it's like about waiting for the phone to
ring versus oh yeah, yeah, you know, saying this that
kind of to the listeners too, where it's like okay, well,
if you're already getting word of mouth, a lot of
people that are like interested in working with you and
(19:07):
like you enough to want to work with you, then
clearly you're doing something right. So now it's just a
question of Okay, well, let's get more people to get
to know us and want to shout us from the rooftops.
And the thing that I think we everybody sees when
I say this out loud, but like a lot of
people never really sat down and thought about explicitly before,
(19:28):
is the fact that your clients are going to recommend
similar clients. So if you are working with clients that
are just they're doing it as a hobby, they play
it like open mic nights and like to them like
that's like that that's the extent of their goal, Like
they're just trying to get their friends to think that
they're cool. The people that they hang out with are
(19:49):
probably going to be in that same boat. They're probably
going to be similar budget. I mean, do you think
about it, Like, I'm sure there are going to be
some very very very very rare exceptions, but like generally speaking,
if you work with somebody that is just like a
for fun hobbyist, the likelihood of them recommending a really great,
you know, like next tier client to you is little
(20:13):
to none, because even if they are friends with them,
put yourself in their shoes. If you're in that like
next tier up artist and you get a recommendation from
somebody that you know that is just like a hobbyist,
you're not going to take that recommendation seriously because you'd
be like, oh, well, that's that's a kind.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Of artist that this guy works with. You know.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So word of mouth is not always a good thing.
It can kind of perpetuate a cycle of boxes you
and it boxes you in, and it if you work
with a whole bunch of emo rappers or something.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
I'm just making this up.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Like, if you work with with emo rappers and they
love working with you, and they recommend you to their friends,
the other artists are could most likely be other emo rappers,
and like, if you love that, if that's what you
want to do, then Buckyheat, keep doing that. But if
your heart is in indie or in pop or in
you know, metalcore folk or whatever, it's very unlikely that
(21:07):
not just like level of seriousness, but also like stylistically
and I think also personality wise, it's very unlikely that
they're going to recommend you to somebody that is like
outside of what they're like, So if you have a
bunch of clients that Yeah, if we're working with clients
that are like either really overbearing or like really bad communicators,
(21:29):
or they don't respect your time like generally speaking, uh,
what's supposed to phrase like like recommends like you know,
so like there is very unlikely that somebody that is
you know, very unprofessional, doesn't you know, treat you well
and it's just kind of like an ass It's very
unlikely that they're going to be surrounded by a bunch
(21:51):
of other artists that are really respectful and really kind
and like really driven, you know, Like it's not impossible, No,
it's it's a lot more likely that if you have
clients that are really driven and also really thoughtful and
respect your boundaries, there's a good chance they're probably friends
with other people that are also really driven and have
(22:12):
they respect boundaries and they're they're really good communicators and
all those things.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
That's absolutely true. Yeah. Again, it's like we were talking
about the virtuous cycle, there's like the negative cycle also
the vicious cycle. Yeah, so you get both of them
and like you know, one feeds the other. So I
wanted to ask you Carl, Like, how do you break
those vicious cycles to create virtuous cycles when it comes
to finding clients artists that are giving you energy and
(22:36):
not sucking it away.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Honestly, it's a numbers game. That's the only the only
real answer is it's a numbers game of just trying
to get as many conversations started as possible and getting
as many reps in of being able to get somebody's
vibe as early as possible. You know, like in a way,
this is similar to somebody that's like, you know, how
(22:58):
do we get really in shape exercise and eat well?
What I mean, Like it's on paper, it's not hard
to do. In action, in willpower, in dedication.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
It's a lot harder. You know.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That's but but really it's it's it's that simple. It's
just getting enough conversations started with people that you can
see those differences. Kind of like when I was talking
about the guitarists, like the you know, the really really
talented but like awful person guitarists that we all we
all knew in college. Right when you only know them,
(23:31):
it's easier to justify working with them. But once you
start to meet a lot more people and other people
that are just as talented, but maybe also have other
qualities that you're looking for, like being driven, taking constructive criticism, well,
being flexible with ideas, being great communicators, supporting other people,
like all those things. Once you meet more people and
you realize that there's there are more qualities that you
(23:53):
can look for, the better you are at recognizing, oh,
this person does not respect matter. This person is just
like only cares about vanity metrics. They just want this
for the fame or whatever. It's as a muscle you
have to build, and the only way to build it
is by doing it and just starting those conversations and
having a lot and being wrong and like misjudging people
(24:16):
because you're like trying to kind of calibrate.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
That totally and mistakes are great. I want to kind
of like try to wrap this episode up, and I
want to leave the listeners with a question what you
talked about in your email or blog posts? I mean
it was really a blog post just happened to have
been an email. But you're saying, like, use your gut
and just like make a list, like this client gives
(24:38):
me joy, gives me energy, This client takes away my energy.
Sucks away my energy. What I'd like to propose is
like a thought experiment for the listeners is to like
a do that and then just see what those people
that give you energy have in common and how you
can like make a create like an avatar of like
the kinds of artists you want to work with, and
how you can I guess, promote yourself on Instagram or
(25:04):
however to try to draw in those kinds of conversations
with people that match that sort of avatar. That's kind
of like something I should be thinking about more. And
I would like to encourage the audience to the listeners
to think about that as well. What do you think
about that, Carl? Is that good? Is that a good
like little exercise homework assignment for the class?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah? I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I would maybe refine it a little bit and say
that it's not just about, like, you know, how do
you promote that you know online? I think it's more
a question of figuring out, you know, those people that
really do respect you, that really like are great collaborators.
Are all those people that have those positive qualities the
clients that you've worked with that have those positive qualities
(25:46):
that you really like? Ask yourself, like well, what do
they like about me? You know, what is the thing
about me that makes someone to keep coming back? Because
it's I always say this, like it's not just going
to be the Sonics, like because they can get a
great sounding mix anywhere, they can get you know, a
great guitar player, anywhere, whatever, whatever you happen to be doing.
It's like, well, what are the things about me that
(26:07):
they really like? Because like if once you look at
that and then you start to maybe also think about
those awful clients and what do they like about you?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yeah, they like that.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's exactly what I know, because that's the thing that's like,
oh they and those are your like bad personality traits
that you need to work on well or like we're
not necessarily bad personally trusts, but like bad business decisions
you're making perhaps.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, well, and things you don't want to highlight, like
I would say probably, I mean this is gonna maybe
hit home for a lot of people. But I feel
like those awful clients probably love you because you're a
bit of a pushover, you know, and like they keep
on asking you for more things and you get frustrated
about it, and you like get really annoyed by it,
(26:50):
but you do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
You don't you don't ever put up the guardrails.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
So you just kind of like do seventeen rounds of
you know, meaningless revisions exactly, and then get really mad
about it and like get grumpy and it ruins your day.
But because you don't stop them, they love the fact
that they can keep on coming back, and like they
have this like infinite flexibility, you know, or the fact
that like you take on a project because you need
(27:15):
the money and that it's like a really low rate,
and they just really love the fact that they can
afford you even though like you're miserable.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
So it's a question of like figuring out, what are
the things that your best clients that you really love
working with, what are the qualities that they like about you,
And then like you're not to say it like your
worst clients, but like the others, what are the things
that they like about you? And that's going to help
you to figure out what to showcase and what not
to showcase on your website, on your social media and
(27:45):
all those things.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, or things that you should maybe put up
guardrails about exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Which is probably like the first the first place to
start for most.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, from tot of us, it's like when they put
like a die on something to like highlight issues. I
don't know exact something medical where they I don't know
what I'm talking about. Just shut me up now, Carl.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
No, you're you're the man, But you know what, I
will shut you up and I will say that was
a great episode.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Likewise, Bye Ben, Bye Carl. We hope you enjoyed this
conversation as much as we did. If anything here resonated
with you, please share this or your favorite episode with
a friend.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Bonner. Until next time,
Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the octro is great.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.