August 5, 2025 • 26 mins
Ben and Carl share some of the techniques they use to add percussive depth without cluttering your mix. Learn why texture beats rhythm, how to stretch samples for supernatural groove, and the specific workflow for making percussion serve your song instead of competing with it.
Discover:
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Discover:
- Why Carl’s orchestral training taught him to add texture instead of rhythm to modern pop mixes
- How time-stretching a sample creates unique transient effects you can’t get any other way
- How adding one extra rhythmic element can destroy the unison power of an entire mix
- The Middle Eastern groove Ben constructed sample by sample because no loop existed for what he needed
- When to mute it and boot it if your percussion isn’t making the song better
Ben and Carl's Weekly Inspiration Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1IpnxDVoTY44JBV1j19H4h?si=0f80e020d8ae497e
LA Wildfire Relief:
Musicares - https://donor.musicares.org/page/lafirerelief
WAMTN - https://give.wearemovingtheneedle.org/campaign/654724/donate
Learn more about StudioLand - https://www.welcometostudioland.com/a/2147995182/bmyFf8p5
Download our free guide: "The Future-Proof Mixing Engineer: 8 Essential Skills for 2024 and Beyond" - https://mpe-ebook.benwallick.com/future-proof-mixing
Connect with us:
Secret Sonics - https://www.instagram.com/secretsonics
Ben - https://www.instagram.com/benwallickmusic/
Carl - https://www.instagram.com/carlbahner/
Learn more:
https://www.benwallick.com/
https://www.carlbahner.com/
This episode with edited by Gavi Kutliroff - https://www.instagram.com/pleasant_peasant_music/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If I'm adding like a bongo part, I don't know.
I'm just pulling in percussions from out of my butt
right now. Not literally, that would be painful.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
That's that's a rough one.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
That's a very that's a very different type of multi
media source. We'd have it. We would charge for these
episodes if that was what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You have to charge a lot of money for that.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to
Secret Sonics, honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to
help you build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Let's get started.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hi, bet Hi, Carl, how are you I am. I'm good,
I'm doing I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We're getting goof here as the day, as the day
moves on, you know, like we're just as.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
You're as you're getting later into the evening, and as
my caffeine and adderall are both kicking in for the day.
So today we are today, today, Junior, what's that from?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I think it's Billy Madison.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yes, yes, I forgot about it.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'm all about movie references from at least fifteen years ago.
Day further, because I think that's from the nineties.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I was gonna like, yeah, that's a lot. I'm sorry
to burst your bubble there.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
But that's I'm just not up to date on movies anymore.
Since having kids, I basically don't see movies. But before then,
I used to go, anyways, what were we going to
talk about today? To Carl, I think we had an idea.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We had an idea we are going to not talk
about Billy Madison. We are going to talk about percussion
in the mix. So we mix did some episodes where
we were talking about our approach to mixing drums and
vocals and all these things. And I feel like percussion
(01:49):
deserves its own separate episode because it encapsulates a lot
of different things, and a lot of a lot of
different styles of music and a lot of different purposes
and roles. And also, you know, my degree was in
orchestral percussion performance, so of course I'm going to be
a word about this stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and I'm here for it because there's nothing like
a little percussion to just push that mix over the
edge of the cliff. You know, yes, it just needs
that little extra something. You know, you're coming up on
the on the last chorus. Everything's already been done in
the second chorus. What else can you do? Shake or
baby tambourine? This is the time.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Let it, let it, let it shine.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So okay, let it shine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So there are a couple of different ways that we
could do this. We could talk about, you know, some
of our go to ideas, but I think that might
be a little less exciting. I wonder if it would
be worth exploring some unconventional uses or unconventional approaches that
we've done in the past, whether it is the way
(02:54):
that we process percussion, the way that we decide when
percussion should happen, maybe if it's like integrating fully as percussion,
like rhythmically. I'm sure there's a lot of things that
we could explore and talk about, but I wanted to
see what sickles your fancy.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, I'm just kind of curious about, you know, how
you think about it, because you're like a drummer and
a percussionist. I'm mostly curious about like what you're thinking
about spatially, how do you see it feel it in
the mix? How do you balance it out? What kind
of spaces do often put percussion in, and like how
does it complement the drums and like the rest of
the mix versus you know, percussion could be really loud,
(03:31):
sometimes it could be really soft and subtle. Sometimes where
do you see percussion in the context of a mix.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I think my approach and my view on percussion is
it comes from I think obviously, you know, me studying
orchestral percussion in college, but also being a super nerd
for pop music. You know, I grew up listening to
a lot of like experimental like like you know, it's
(03:57):
so weird to say, like, you know, twentieth century composed
like that used to mean like forward thinkers, and now
it's like we're talking about people from the fifties. But
I think how I approach it is I very rarely
add percussion to try to like add rhythm. I am
trying to add texture and energy, and when you want
(04:21):
to add energy to something, sometimes adding a new rhythm
can help. If you're coming from like something very sparse
and you're like like you're the beginning of verse two
is like really sparse and then like the second half
as starting to pick up, we add like another rhythmic
layer that helps to pick it up, right, Like that's
when I would do something like that, like there's maybe
(04:41):
there's no even something that's just just kicking snare in
the first half, and then like the high hats come
in in the second half, or like a shaker comes
in in the second half. Right, that's the kind of
easy to imagine scenario.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, But when I'm doing something like the scenario you
were talking about, where you know you're going into that
last chorus and it needs something else, you're like Wet's
ad shaker. To me, most of the time when I'm
adding percussion, I'm doing it to add texture as opposed
to adding a new rhythmic component. So it is very
(05:14):
common for me, even in like a fairly minimal arrangement,
to have like three or four sometimes a lot more
like layers of percussion happening at the same time. But
I'm not having three or four different rhythms happening at
the same time. They're all either playing the same like
(05:38):
pattern on paper, you know what I mean, Like they're
all like doing just like sixteenth notes, you know, or
just eighth notes. But it's the variation of the texture
and the variation of the combination of those things that
creates that extra depth for me. So I'm not trying
to like add new things to grab your attention. I'm
trying to add depth to the to the rhythms that
(05:59):
are already happening and getting variation to the texture of that.
So if it's something where there's if I'm adding like
a bongo part, I don't know, I'm just pulling percussions
from out of my butt right now.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Not literally, that would be painful. Yeah, that's a rough one.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
That's a very different type of multimedia source we'd have.
We would charge for these episodes if that was what
we were doing.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
We have to charge a lot of money for that.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, sorry anyway, But no, like if I was gonna
add like a you know, like a percussion layer to something,
usually what I would think is like, okay, well, this
is either it's playing straight sixteenth notes, you know, with
different accent patterns, or maybe it's it's not playing every note.
(06:44):
It's actually kind of kind of minimal. But there are
no if the existing rhythmic pattern is like sixteenth notes
generally speaking, I'm not going to add something that has
like a little fast like a little flutter fill or
flams or like thirty second notes in it, because those
new parts, the rhythms are going to break from the
(07:08):
the unisonness of the rest of the percussion and therefore
grab your attention.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
But percussion could be used so effectively at doing just that. Yeah,
you know, Like it's also like one of like that's
one of the things I love about percussion is like
that sort of like it's almost like a pre roll,
like you're about to hit something, but then you hear
a little you know, right before it hits, you know, Like, yeah,
I love that stuff about I love that about percussion. Yeah,
and I did that recently, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think like when we talk about
like using percussion as ear candy, I want I'll talk
about that too, But like I would say, like this
is not about percussion specifically, but this is about like
how something in unison can add so much power. I
always talk about Gold on the Ceiling by the Black Keys.
You know that main riff that burn Burner in Nert
(07:53):
Burner nerd Berner Berner, like that that riff. If you
listen to it. There's I think like two or three
octaves of synths, synth, bass, electric bass, multiple guitars, organ
I believe, and I think there's even like a I forget,
like a glockenspiel or something all like a wall like
(08:17):
a wall sound, and but like you don't hear like
all those instruments are playing different rhythms and different counter melodies.
You just hear this like big wall, so like it's
just this huge, monstrous like texture that you just bob
your head to. And when you listen to the drums
in that part, there's like the drums are doing that,
don't tambourines just doing the bass is doing dun't get dunk,
(08:43):
get dunk, got dunk. Like the rhythm parts, like there's
only really like three rhythmic things even happening in there,
and if you look at it, they're all just doing
some variation of that like kind of shuffley that some
are playing the notes, some are like not playing some
(09:03):
of those parts, but they're all on that same kind
of grid. And if we just started adding in like
like a and to that all of a sudden, it
would kill the mood, even if that was the only
thing happening. Even if it was just like high hats
doing like playing all three of the triplets in that
little shuffle right, it would distract even if it's like
(09:24):
super super super super super super quiet, because it's something
it has notes that are happening where no other notes
are happening. You're gonna hear it, you know, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't have to be allowed like fucking like cow
bell through a guitar ump, you know, to do it
like it could be something very quiet and subtle. So
that's you know, for me, when I'm trying to like
(09:46):
layer things and add interest and depth, it's not about
adding interest by creating new rhythms and adding like filling
in all these little spots. It's about how can I
have as much variation notes to note during a sixteenth
note pattern. So I approach percussion as a texture and
as like a depth enhancer in a different way that
(10:09):
I would treat percussion if I was trying to do
your candy, you know. And that's why I think it's
why I am so particular with pills and I'm I'm like,
I'm a crazy person with with pills and transitions, and
I think it's because I studied orchestral percussion, and I
you know, I'm used to resting for seventy three measures,
(10:30):
hitting a tambourine one note, you know at panisimo, and
then resting for another five minutes like.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
That's then dropping the tambourine on the floor, walking off
the stage.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Exactly exactly out of pure shame. But no, but that's
that's the thing. It's like always knowing that everything needs
to have an intention and having its place. So for me,
that's why, like for for percussion, like the conceptually and
like placement wise, even as a mixer, if I'm going
to be doing additional production, which I'm I'm usually doing
for a lot of my clients, I would to make
(11:02):
sure that I'm not I'm not trying to add new
rhythmic interest. I'm trying to add some texture and depth.
Which sometimes that's you can do that in the mix.
Sometimes you can't, and sometimes it is just adding an
extra little layer underneath or like I also like really
(11:22):
like doubling high hat parts, you know where they're you know,
the the high hat that's in there already might be
really like big and like thick and full, but it
doesn't really have any top end or it has way
too much top end, and I need to try to
balance it out, you know. I'm like trying to create
(11:42):
a more you know, something that is going to create
the kind of balance that I want for that part.
So then when it comes to like ear candy, like
you were saying, like you know, have fielling those little spots,
I try to have a like a hyper awareness of
where those spots are and like what are the spots
that should be filled and what are the spots that
(12:02):
should remain open. Because if you feel every if you
fill every spot with a cool sound, it's gonna feel
like you're walking through Times Square on New Year's Eve.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
It just like there's monotonous.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Well, there's like too much stuff, even if every even
if they are like cool sounds on their own or
like in the moment when you loop that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, because it takes away from the specialness of like
the journey and the building and the storytelling. It's all
the same throughout and it's just the static mix. Even
if it's really busy, it just sucks, you know, it's
just not fun and it's just not fun.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, And if it's taking away from the story, then.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yes, it's the same thing with like guitar licks, you
know what I mean, it could be the exact same thing.
Like if you're playing that lick every single time, it
loses the specialness, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, Like oh my god, Like I always think
about the the end the air tonight drum fill, Like
if you played that drum fill before every chorus, it
would not it would not be what it is.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yes, or that big tom or snare hit. We don't
really know what it is in the Whitney Houston song,
oh yeah, and like nobody knows how to get it
just right with the rhythm that only happens once in
that entire you know, fucking power ballad. So make it count, bro, Yeah,
I know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And that's it. I think, Like it is weird for
me to say that I tend to add a lot
of percussion things to songs, but I don't add a
lot of percussion moments to songs. I try to use
it as a way to add a texture and depth
to something as already.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So it's like it's just like enhancing the drum kit basically,
yeah or whatever the main rhythmic element is.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, Like you're probably not even going to notice that
it's there. Like, if you notice that it's there, I'm
probably not doing it right. One of the things I've
noticed over the past twenty years being in the industry
is that audio school usually leaves most graduates completely unprepared
for entering the industry. I mean, sure, you learn how
to rewire a patch, bait or sleep, but they probably
won't teach you how to stand out and attract the
kinds of artists that fuel your passion for recording. I
(13:57):
appreciate what you bring to the table, let alone pay
their rates. You want to get paid, and YouTube university
is full of people telling you that their way is
the right way, and it doesn't help you apply things
to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients. So I've
been building studio Land to fill those gaps. We use
structured learning paths, weekly live classes in a private community
of other pros to help you discover how to tarn
(14:18):
your technical expertise into a thriving business that attracts the
right clients at the right rates. Try it out for
free the links in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I want to ask you, like I want to get
a little technical with you. That's Okay. You describe yourself
sometimes as a post producer in addition to being a mixer.
So when you're like creating these percussion elements to tracks
that you're handed, what's your like go to method? Do
you you know you just pull up splice? Do you
use battery? Are you kind of just like finding a
sample and popping it in and just like dragging it?
(14:49):
Like what's what's the Carl method? How do you actually
make it come to life?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah? Typically I'll have an idea of, like what's the
purpose of what I want to add, Like I'm trying
to add something that maybe the I want something that's
going to match the rhythm of the high hats but
adds a little bit more deeper frequencies and maybe something
that's a little bit like wider as well. So I
don't want to, like I don't want to add like
a chorus to the high hats or something like widener.
(15:14):
I want something that maybe feels naturally a little bit
more spacious, because I don't want to add reverb to
the high hats without adding reverb to the other drums,
like if it if it doesn't, if it feels like
out of place. So typically if you want me to
walk through like my workflow from a like actual tangible
like step by step way.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Typically, yeah, you know, curious, I get an idea for
what I'm looking for. And let's say that I'm looking
for a percussion part that is playing a similar rhythm,
if not the exact same rhythm, and I want it
to be something that has more of the lower frequency range.
Probably not, you know, maybe I don't need a lot
of transience, so I'm not looking for something that's really
(15:53):
really pokey. I want it to be something that I
can kind of just tuck in there, somethink that's not
too intense on its own. So I'll open up splace
and generally what I do is, actually I will look
at the tempo of the project. Let's say that the
project is ninety two bpm, Right, I'll go in and
I'll go to the the like the bpm selector for
(16:17):
the search, and I'll usually do like plus or minus
a couple like I very rarely will search for like
ninety two bpm because usually they're kind of boring.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And there's also not enough options.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Usually, yeah, there's theres gonna be some options, but I
know that if I'm trying to add a layer into it,
and it's knowing that it's going to be a deep thing,
I have a lot of flexibility to like stretch it
and mess with it because it's not going to be
like a prominent part. So sometimes I'll go even further
and I'll intentionally just like look for us like a
(16:48):
cool loop, regardless of what the tempo is. And then
I'll see like, okay, well this is you know the
songs in ninety two. This is actually like at one ten.
I'll drop it into logic and I'll do the flex
time with like the speed effects. So that way, when
I when I like stretch the file out to this
lower tempo, it like it's kind of like playing a
record back at a slower speed, so everything zones a
(17:10):
little bit. You get like the pitch drift, you know,
and the pitch the pitch shifting from it, and also
it kind of like widens the transience so it's not
as punchy. And sometimes that's really really cool. Sometimes sounds terrible,
you know, And I'll I just am looking for something
trial and error, and I literally like I I don't
go into it with like I want this specific type
(17:32):
of sound this specific instrument doing the specific rhythm. I'm
just like, this is the kind of character I want
to add to this moment. I'm gonna just usually sort
it by either like I don't usually do most popular first.
I usually do either random or most recent, just because
I I want to be surprised and I'll get through
though something sounds kind of cool, and then I'll just
(17:53):
drop it in time, stretch it, you know, do some
time alignment. If there's like a certain kind of maybe
the song I'm working on is more straight sixteenths and
this is a little bit swung, I'll like try to
see what it sounds like if I, you know, flex
timate and like straighten it out to like hide in better.
A lot of trial and error with that. Sometimes I'll
do something a little bit less I don't know, maybe
(18:17):
less common, but I'll use something like either a transient
designer to try to like soften it, or maybe a
transient designer to exaggerate it. But I also will use
something like isotope rx D click, and like I want
to see what it sounds like if I take all
of the trans like basically like make it really sensitive,
take all like the transience out of this because I
don't need transience. If I'm adding to something that already
(18:39):
has the transience, I just want that like kind of
like back around like texture, and sometimes that works really
well or sometimes if you know, obviously, like I if
you don't know this about me already for the listeners,
like I tend to work in pop adjacent styles, so
like electronic elements are a lot more common, So I'm
not doing audiophile folk that that this stuff wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Work right, You don't need to hear that it's definitely
a bongo.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah, yeah, like if anything, like I kind of like
when I when it doesn't sound like the original source obviously,
you know, I have a big old buckets full of
percussion instruments and all sorts of weird stuff. So like
if I do want a real sound, I'll do that,
but just play the shaker into it to speed, you know,
thirty seconds. Sometimes i'll play the I've done this before too,
(19:28):
where I'll play the shaker at a different tempo intentionally,
and then I'll stretch it out so I get like
a real it's really me playing the shaker. But then
I'm taking that and I'm recording it at one ten,
stretching it out to ninety two. So I'm getting like
the texture of that slowed.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah back, use if you could use very speed and
logic to do that, it's great. Yeah, it's a great hack.
Jacob Coller did that. That's that's how I learned about that.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Oh yeah. So there's a lot of different different ways,
but it's all about you know, what am I trying
to do here? What is the purpose of adding this.
I'm not going to add something just because it's cool
on its own. It has to really serve a purpose.
So it's I'm looking at something that is cool on
its own and serves a purpose. You know. Cool on
its own is what grabs my attention when I'm doom
(20:14):
scrolling through splice. But once I drop it in and
I put it where I think it needs to be,
then it's either going to inspire me and I'm gonna
be like super stoked about it. Or usually it's like
a four bar loop and there's like two and a
half of the bars are exactly what I want and
then there's like too many extra notes, or it's doing
something weird and adding a little pill and which keys
(20:35):
I'll just chop that part off grab and like fly
over part of the section that I like, and I'll
you know, rearrange it, drop, you know, whatever I need
to get it to have the accent pattern that I
want to. It's experimentation and fun and just trying to
make sure that at all times it is serving the
purpose that I feel like it needs to serve. And
if it doesn't, I just mute it.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, boot it. Mute, didn't boot it, Yeah, mute didn't
boot it. Yeah. If it's not making your booty move,
you know kind of thing, awesome. I don't know what
else I want to add to this, but I guess,
like I I would say, I'm doing more of the
of the real kind of percussion parts than you are
based on like the stuff that I'm working on, I'm
doing less percussion to kind of enhance a groove versus
(21:20):
like what is a part here that's going to enhance
the storytelling of this song? And I'll do anything and everything,
And it could be me playing the shaker part or
a tambourine part. It could be me finding a loop.
It could be me finding a sample and just dragging
it and then chopping it or like just like moving
it according to whatever I want. Or it could be
sometimes using logics like drummer feature and then exporting the
(21:44):
MIDI from it and using a better sample library to
do it. It could be like literally anything. It just
kind of depends what the song needs. And I actually
recently worked on like a like a Middle Eastern and
kind of groove thing with like all Spice samples, and
the whole thing would just like patch together just like
taking it was like literally sample by sample to create
the grooves. It was just like the best way to
(22:04):
do it because we did like a cahone and you
can't always get good cohone grooves, but like I found
a really good sample library on Spice and we just
like popped it in and literally made every single bar
of that percussion and it sounds kick ass actually, So yeah,
it's just like everything can work, you know. Yeah, maybe
the commonality about what we're both doing is like nothing
(22:25):
holds us back with percussion, just like the intent of
what we're each doing is a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, the you know, like as long as the intent
and as long as the intention is fulfilled, how we
fulfill it to me doesn't matter like whether it's me
doing it, whether it's a splice, loop, whether it's something
that's like some weird combination that's a you know, really
just jacking things up, Like I don't care, like if
(22:52):
it gets if it serves what I needed to serve
in the song, Like I don't really, I don't know.
I'm not precious about where it came from, even though
even though I have a degree in orchestral percussion performance,
Like I'm not going to be like, oh, well, you
know the real Why would you play real? Why would
you a sample shaker when you can just play yourself,
you know, like.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
That's yeah, that sample might sound better, yeah, or fit
the what you're going for better, yeah, or just it's
faster and time is of the essence.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, I mean, especially if it's like if it's something
where it's stopping and like recording it is going to
pull you out of the flow of making good creative decisions.
A mix like the you know, the it's like two
steps forward but like six steps back.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah that's and sometimes I'll record the part and it
won't work and then I and anyways have to go
to the a splice or you know, a loop or whatever.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So just like brain, brain, open ears, open, you know,
and and trying to be inspired by it, I think
is also a good lesson. Like you know, what I
like about what you've been talking about is just like
there's like a freedom to like, Okay, I don't even
know what I'm looking for, but I'm looking for something,
and I'm going to just find stuff and fuck around
until I find something that's inspiring to me. Yeah, and
(24:03):
like that's really cool. Yeah, And like I think so
many people, including myself, sometimes overthink all this shit when
it comes to like the arrangement of a production or whatever,
and so much of it could just be happenstance of like,
oh I found this thing and it sounded really cool
and we just built off of that. I think you
have to like let go and how I don't know
I got there's an artist I'm working with who like
(24:24):
really wanted specific like instrument. I'm like, like it doesn't
actually matter, Like just like roll with this, you know,
and like see where the experiment goes and then see
if you're missing something. You know, Like you have to
like kind of build the building blocks and like finish
out that experiment and see if it's fun and if
it works and like if you're taking it too seriously.
If you're taking every single part too seriously or like
what the actual instrument sound is or whatever, then you
(24:47):
might just be holding yourself back from actually just creating
and making something meaningful. So like, go with it, man,
you know mic drop.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Ben, that was great.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
That's what I'm done.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I'm done. That's let's send it there. That was awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
H likewise yeah, yeah, so sick man, so percussion, we
did it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
We'll add it to the list of various things within
the mix that we talked about, various instruments within the
context of the mix that we've talked about.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Ben, you're the man. Thank you for doing this today.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah you too. Carl's good to see you again. Get
to do our catch up again, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And hopefully we will meet up again next week and
or either I will have small human baby child and
we will not be meeting next week, or I'll have
a somehow even more pregnant wife and we.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Will do an other I think I know which way
your wife wants it to go.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Editor. Yes, I think you're right about that one. Ben.
You're the man. I love you. I'm mister Bye Ben, Bye.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Carl, we hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as
we did. If anything here resonated with you, please share
this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Vonner.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the outro is great.
If I'm adding like a bongo part, I don't know.
I'm just pulling in percussions from out of my butt
right now. Not literally, that would be painful.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
That's that's a rough one.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
That's a very that's a very different type of multi
media source. We'd have it. We would charge for these
episodes if that was what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You have to charge a lot of money for that.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening to
Secret Sonics, honest conversations chock full of tactical advice to
help you build your dream career in music and audio.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
up for success in the ever changing music industry.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Let's get started.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hi, bet Hi, Carl, how are you I am. I'm good,
I'm doing I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We're getting goof here as the day, as the day
moves on, you know, like we're just as.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
You're as you're getting later into the evening, and as
my caffeine and adderall are both kicking in for the day.
So today we are today, today, Junior, what's that from?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I think it's Billy Madison.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yes, yes, I forgot about it.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I'm all about movie references from at least fifteen years ago.
Day further, because I think that's from the nineties.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I was gonna like, yeah, that's a lot. I'm sorry
to burst your bubble there.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
But that's I'm just not up to date on movies anymore.
Since having kids, I basically don't see movies. But before then,
I used to go, anyways, what were we going to
talk about today? To Carl, I think we had an idea.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We had an idea we are going to not talk
about Billy Madison. We are going to talk about percussion
in the mix. So we mix did some episodes where
we were talking about our approach to mixing drums and
vocals and all these things. And I feel like percussion
(01:49):
deserves its own separate episode because it encapsulates a lot
of different things, and a lot of a lot of
different styles of music and a lot of different purposes
and roles. And also, you know, my degree was in
orchestral percussion performance, so of course I'm going to be
a word about this stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and I'm here for it because there's nothing like
a little percussion to just push that mix over the
edge of the cliff. You know, yes, it just needs
that little extra something. You know, you're coming up on
the on the last chorus. Everything's already been done in
the second chorus. What else can you do? Shake or
baby tambourine? This is the time.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Let it, let it, let it shine.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So okay, let it shine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
So there are a couple of different ways that we
could do this. We could talk about, you know, some
of our go to ideas, but I think that might
be a little less exciting. I wonder if it would
be worth exploring some unconventional uses or unconventional approaches that
we've done in the past, whether it is the way
(02:54):
that we process percussion, the way that we decide when
percussion should happen, maybe if it's like integrating fully as percussion,
like rhythmically. I'm sure there's a lot of things that
we could explore and talk about, but I wanted to
see what sickles your fancy.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, I'm just kind of curious about, you know, how
you think about it, because you're like a drummer and
a percussionist. I'm mostly curious about like what you're thinking
about spatially, how do you see it feel it in
the mix? How do you balance it out? What kind
of spaces do often put percussion in, and like how
does it complement the drums and like the rest of
the mix versus you know, percussion could be really loud,
(03:31):
sometimes it could be really soft and subtle. Sometimes where
do you see percussion in the context of a mix.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I think my approach and my view on percussion is
it comes from I think obviously, you know, me studying
orchestral percussion in college, but also being a super nerd
for pop music. You know, I grew up listening to
a lot of like experimental like like you know, it's
(03:57):
so weird to say, like, you know, twentieth century composed
like that used to mean like forward thinkers, and now
it's like we're talking about people from the fifties. But
I think how I approach it is I very rarely
add percussion to try to like add rhythm. I am
trying to add texture and energy, and when you want
(04:21):
to add energy to something, sometimes adding a new rhythm
can help. If you're coming from like something very sparse
and you're like like you're the beginning of verse two
is like really sparse and then like the second half
as starting to pick up, we add like another rhythmic
layer that helps to pick it up, right, Like that's
when I would do something like that, like there's maybe
(04:41):
there's no even something that's just just kicking snare in
the first half, and then like the high hats come
in in the second half, or like a shaker comes
in in the second half. Right, that's the kind of
easy to imagine scenario.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, But when I'm doing something like the scenario you
were talking about, where you know you're going into that
last chorus and it needs something else, you're like Wet's
ad shaker. To me, most of the time when I'm
adding percussion, I'm doing it to add texture as opposed
to adding a new rhythmic component. So it is very
(05:14):
common for me, even in like a fairly minimal arrangement,
to have like three or four sometimes a lot more
like layers of percussion happening at the same time. But
I'm not having three or four different rhythms happening at
the same time. They're all either playing the same like
(05:38):
pattern on paper, you know what I mean, Like they're
all like doing just like sixteenth notes, you know, or
just eighth notes. But it's the variation of the texture
and the variation of the combination of those things that
creates that extra depth for me. So I'm not trying
to like add new things to grab your attention. I'm
trying to add depth to the to the rhythms that
(05:59):
are already happening and getting variation to the texture of that.
So if it's something where there's if I'm adding like
a bongo part, I don't know, I'm just pulling percussions
from out of my butt right now.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Not literally, that would be painful. Yeah, that's a rough one.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
That's a very different type of multimedia source we'd have.
We would charge for these episodes if that was what
we were doing.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
We have to charge a lot of money for that.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, sorry anyway, But no, like if I was gonna
add like a you know, like a percussion layer to something,
usually what I would think is like, okay, well, this
is either it's playing straight sixteenth notes, you know, with
different accent patterns, or maybe it's it's not playing every note.
(06:44):
It's actually kind of kind of minimal. But there are
no if the existing rhythmic pattern is like sixteenth notes
generally speaking, I'm not going to add something that has
like a little fast like a little flutter fill or
flams or like thirty second notes in it, because those
new parts, the rhythms are going to break from the
(07:08):
the unisonness of the rest of the percussion and therefore
grab your attention.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
But percussion could be used so effectively at doing just that. Yeah,
you know, Like it's also like one of like that's
one of the things I love about percussion is like
that sort of like it's almost like a pre roll,
like you're about to hit something, but then you hear
a little you know, right before it hits, you know, Like, yeah,
I love that stuff about I love that about percussion. Yeah,
and I did that recently, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think like when we talk about
like using percussion as ear candy, I want I'll talk
about that too, But like I would say, like this
is not about percussion specifically, but this is about like
how something in unison can add so much power. I
always talk about Gold on the Ceiling by the Black Keys.
You know that main riff that burn Burner in Nert
(07:53):
Burner nerd Berner Berner, like that that riff. If you
listen to it. There's I think like two or three
octaves of synths, synth, bass, electric bass, multiple guitars, organ
I believe, and I think there's even like a I forget,
like a glockenspiel or something all like a wall like
(08:17):
a wall sound, and but like you don't hear like
all those instruments are playing different rhythms and different counter melodies.
You just hear this like big wall, so like it's
just this huge, monstrous like texture that you just bob
your head to. And when you listen to the drums
in that part, there's like the drums are doing that,
don't tambourines just doing the bass is doing dun't get dunk,
(08:43):
get dunk, got dunk. Like the rhythm parts, like there's
only really like three rhythmic things even happening in there,
and if you look at it, they're all just doing
some variation of that like kind of shuffley that some
are playing the notes, some are like not playing some
(09:03):
of those parts, but they're all on that same kind
of grid. And if we just started adding in like
like a and to that all of a sudden, it
would kill the mood, even if that was the only
thing happening. Even if it was just like high hats
doing like playing all three of the triplets in that
little shuffle right, it would distract even if it's like
(09:24):
super super super super super super quiet, because it's something
it has notes that are happening where no other notes
are happening. You're gonna hear it, you know, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't have to be allowed like fucking like cow
bell through a guitar ump, you know, to do it
like it could be something very quiet and subtle. So
that's you know, for me, when I'm trying to like
(09:46):
layer things and add interest and depth, it's not about
adding interest by creating new rhythms and adding like filling
in all these little spots. It's about how can I
have as much variation notes to note during a sixteenth
note pattern. So I approach percussion as a texture and
as like a depth enhancer in a different way that
(10:09):
I would treat percussion if I was trying to do
your candy, you know. And that's why I think it's
why I am so particular with pills and I'm I'm like,
I'm a crazy person with with pills and transitions, and
I think it's because I studied orchestral percussion, and I
you know, I'm used to resting for seventy three measures,
(10:30):
hitting a tambourine one note, you know at panisimo, and
then resting for another five minutes like.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
That's then dropping the tambourine on the floor, walking off
the stage.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Exactly exactly out of pure shame. But no, but that's
that's the thing. It's like always knowing that everything needs
to have an intention and having its place. So for me,
that's why, like for for percussion, like the conceptually and
like placement wise, even as a mixer, if I'm going
to be doing additional production, which I'm I'm usually doing
for a lot of my clients, I would to make
(11:02):
sure that I'm not I'm not trying to add new
rhythmic interest. I'm trying to add some texture and depth.
Which sometimes that's you can do that in the mix.
Sometimes you can't, and sometimes it is just adding an
extra little layer underneath or like I also like really
(11:22):
like doubling high hat parts, you know where they're you know,
the the high hat that's in there already might be
really like big and like thick and full, but it
doesn't really have any top end or it has way
too much top end, and I need to try to
balance it out, you know. I'm like trying to create
(11:42):
a more you know, something that is going to create
the kind of balance that I want for that part.
So then when it comes to like ear candy, like
you were saying, like you know, have fielling those little spots,
I try to have a like a hyper awareness of
where those spots are and like what are the spots
that should be filled and what are the spots that
(12:02):
should remain open. Because if you feel every if you
fill every spot with a cool sound, it's gonna feel
like you're walking through Times Square on New Year's Eve.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
It just like there's monotonous.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Well, there's like too much stuff, even if every even
if they are like cool sounds on their own or
like in the moment when you loop that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, because it takes away from the specialness of like
the journey and the building and the storytelling. It's all
the same throughout and it's just the static mix. Even
if it's really busy, it just sucks, you know, it's
just not fun and it's just not fun.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, And if it's taking away from the story, then.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yes, it's the same thing with like guitar licks, you
know what I mean, it could be the exact same thing.
Like if you're playing that lick every single time, it
loses the specialness, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, Like oh my god, Like I always think
about the the end the air tonight drum fill, Like
if you played that drum fill before every chorus, it
would not it would not be what it is.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yes, or that big tom or snare hit. We don't
really know what it is in the Whitney Houston song,
oh yeah, and like nobody knows how to get it
just right with the rhythm that only happens once in
that entire you know, fucking power ballad. So make it count, bro, Yeah,
I know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And that's it. I think, Like it is weird for
me to say that I tend to add a lot
of percussion things to songs, but I don't add a
lot of percussion moments to songs. I try to use
it as a way to add a texture and depth
to something as already.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So it's like it's just like enhancing the drum kit basically,
yeah or whatever the main rhythmic element is.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, Like you're probably not even going to notice that
it's there. Like, if you notice that it's there, I'm
probably not doing it right. One of the things I've
noticed over the past twenty years being in the industry
is that audio school usually leaves most graduates completely unprepared
for entering the industry. I mean, sure, you learn how
to rewire a patch, bait or sleep, but they probably
won't teach you how to stand out and attract the
kinds of artists that fuel your passion for recording. I
(13:57):
appreciate what you bring to the table, let alone pay
their rates. You want to get paid, and YouTube university
is full of people telling you that their way is
the right way, and it doesn't help you apply things
to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients. So I've
been building studio Land to fill those gaps. We use
structured learning paths, weekly live classes in a private community
of other pros to help you discover how to tarn
(14:18):
your technical expertise into a thriving business that attracts the
right clients at the right rates. Try it out for
free the links in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I want to ask you, like I want to get
a little technical with you. That's Okay. You describe yourself
sometimes as a post producer in addition to being a mixer.
So when you're like creating these percussion elements to tracks
that you're handed, what's your like go to method? Do
you you know you just pull up splice? Do you
use battery? Are you kind of just like finding a
sample and popping it in and just like dragging it?
(14:49):
Like what's what's the Carl method? How do you actually
make it come to life?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah? Typically I'll have an idea of, like what's the
purpose of what I want to add, Like I'm trying
to add something that maybe the I want something that's
going to match the rhythm of the high hats but
adds a little bit more deeper frequencies and maybe something
that's a little bit like wider as well. So I
don't want to, like I don't want to add like
a chorus to the high hats or something like widener.
(15:14):
I want something that maybe feels naturally a little bit
more spacious, because I don't want to add reverb to
the high hats without adding reverb to the other drums,
like if it if it doesn't, if it feels like
out of place. So typically if you want me to
walk through like my workflow from a like actual tangible
like step by step way.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Typically, yeah, you know, curious, I get an idea for
what I'm looking for. And let's say that I'm looking
for a percussion part that is playing a similar rhythm,
if not the exact same rhythm, and I want it
to be something that has more of the lower frequency range.
Probably not, you know, maybe I don't need a lot
of transience, so I'm not looking for something that's really
(15:53):
really pokey. I want it to be something that I
can kind of just tuck in there, somethink that's not
too intense on its own. So I'll open up splace
and generally what I do is, actually I will look
at the tempo of the project. Let's say that the
project is ninety two bpm, Right, I'll go in and
I'll go to the the like the bpm selector for
(16:17):
the search, and I'll usually do like plus or minus
a couple like I very rarely will search for like
ninety two bpm because usually they're kind of boring.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And there's also not enough options.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Usually, yeah, there's theres gonna be some options, but I
know that if I'm trying to add a layer into it,
and it's knowing that it's going to be a deep thing,
I have a lot of flexibility to like stretch it
and mess with it because it's not going to be
like a prominent part. So sometimes I'll go even further
and I'll intentionally just like look for us like a
(16:48):
cool loop, regardless of what the tempo is. And then
I'll see like, okay, well this is you know the
songs in ninety two. This is actually like at one ten.
I'll drop it into logic and I'll do the flex
time with like the speed effects. So that way, when
I when I like stretch the file out to this
lower tempo, it like it's kind of like playing a
record back at a slower speed, so everything zones a
(17:10):
little bit. You get like the pitch drift, you know,
and the pitch the pitch shifting from it, and also
it kind of like widens the transience so it's not
as punchy. And sometimes that's really really cool. Sometimes sounds terrible,
you know, And I'll I just am looking for something
trial and error, and I literally like I I don't
go into it with like I want this specific type
(17:32):
of sound this specific instrument doing the specific rhythm. I'm
just like, this is the kind of character I want
to add to this moment. I'm gonna just usually sort
it by either like I don't usually do most popular first.
I usually do either random or most recent, just because
I I want to be surprised and I'll get through
though something sounds kind of cool, and then I'll just
(17:53):
drop it in time, stretch it, you know, do some
time alignment. If there's like a certain kind of maybe
the song I'm working on is more straight sixteenths and
this is a little bit swung, I'll like try to
see what it sounds like if I, you know, flex
timate and like straighten it out to like hide in better.
A lot of trial and error with that. Sometimes I'll
do something a little bit less I don't know, maybe
(18:17):
less common, but I'll use something like either a transient
designer to try to like soften it, or maybe a
transient designer to exaggerate it. But I also will use
something like isotope rx D click, and like I want
to see what it sounds like if I take all
of the trans like basically like make it really sensitive,
take all like the transience out of this because I
don't need transience. If I'm adding to something that already
(18:39):
has the transience, I just want that like kind of
like back around like texture, and sometimes that works really
well or sometimes if you know, obviously, like I if
you don't know this about me already for the listeners,
like I tend to work in pop adjacent styles, so
like electronic elements are a lot more common, So I'm
not doing audiophile folk that that this stuff wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Work right, You don't need to hear that it's definitely
a bongo.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah, yeah, like if anything, like I kind of like
when I when it doesn't sound like the original source obviously,
you know, I have a big old buckets full of
percussion instruments and all sorts of weird stuff. So like
if I do want a real sound, I'll do that,
but just play the shaker into it to speed, you know,
thirty seconds. Sometimes i'll play the I've done this before too,
(19:28):
where I'll play the shaker at a different tempo intentionally,
and then I'll stretch it out so I get like
a real it's really me playing the shaker. But then
I'm taking that and I'm recording it at one ten,
stretching it out to ninety two. So I'm getting like
the texture of that slowed.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah back, use if you could use very speed and
logic to do that, it's great. Yeah, it's a great hack.
Jacob Coller did that. That's that's how I learned about that.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Oh yeah. So there's a lot of different different ways,
but it's all about you know, what am I trying
to do here? What is the purpose of adding this.
I'm not going to add something just because it's cool
on its own. It has to really serve a purpose.
So it's I'm looking at something that is cool on
its own and serves a purpose. You know. Cool on
its own is what grabs my attention when I'm doom
(20:14):
scrolling through splice. But once I drop it in and
I put it where I think it needs to be,
then it's either going to inspire me and I'm gonna
be like super stoked about it. Or usually it's like
a four bar loop and there's like two and a
half of the bars are exactly what I want and
then there's like too many extra notes, or it's doing
something weird and adding a little pill and which keys
(20:35):
I'll just chop that part off grab and like fly
over part of the section that I like, and I'll
you know, rearrange it, drop, you know, whatever I need
to get it to have the accent pattern that I
want to. It's experimentation and fun and just trying to
make sure that at all times it is serving the
purpose that I feel like it needs to serve. And
if it doesn't, I just mute it.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, boot it. Mute, didn't boot it, Yeah, mute didn't
boot it. Yeah. If it's not making your booty move,
you know kind of thing, awesome. I don't know what
else I want to add to this, but I guess,
like I I would say, I'm doing more of the
of the real kind of percussion parts than you are
based on like the stuff that I'm working on, I'm
doing less percussion to kind of enhance a groove versus
(21:20):
like what is a part here that's going to enhance
the storytelling of this song? And I'll do anything and everything,
And it could be me playing the shaker part or
a tambourine part. It could be me finding a loop.
It could be me finding a sample and just dragging
it and then chopping it or like just like moving
it according to whatever I want. Or it could be
sometimes using logics like drummer feature and then exporting the
(21:44):
MIDI from it and using a better sample library to
do it. It could be like literally anything. It just
kind of depends what the song needs. And I actually
recently worked on like a like a Middle Eastern and
kind of groove thing with like all Spice samples, and
the whole thing would just like patch together just like
taking it was like literally sample by sample to create
the grooves. It was just like the best way to
(22:04):
do it because we did like a cahone and you
can't always get good cohone grooves, but like I found
a really good sample library on Spice and we just
like popped it in and literally made every single bar
of that percussion and it sounds kick ass actually, So yeah,
it's just like everything can work, you know. Yeah, maybe
the commonality about what we're both doing is like nothing
(22:25):
holds us back with percussion, just like the intent of
what we're each doing is a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, the you know, like as long as the intent
and as long as the intention is fulfilled, how we
fulfill it to me doesn't matter like whether it's me
doing it, whether it's a splice, loop, whether it's something
that's like some weird combination that's a you know, really
just jacking things up, Like I don't care, like if
(22:52):
it gets if it serves what I needed to serve
in the song, Like I don't really, I don't know.
I'm not precious about where it came from, even though
even though I have a degree in orchestral percussion performance,
Like I'm not going to be like, oh, well, you
know the real Why would you play real? Why would
you a sample shaker when you can just play yourself,
you know, like.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
That's yeah, that sample might sound better, yeah, or fit
the what you're going for better, yeah, or just it's
faster and time is of the essence.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, I mean, especially if it's like if it's something
where it's stopping and like recording it is going to
pull you out of the flow of making good creative decisions.
A mix like the you know, the it's like two
steps forward but like six steps back.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah that's and sometimes I'll record the part and it
won't work and then I and anyways have to go
to the a splice or you know, a loop or whatever.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So just like brain, brain, open ears, open, you know,
and and trying to be inspired by it, I think
is also a good lesson. Like you know, what I
like about what you've been talking about is just like
there's like a freedom to like, Okay, I don't even
know what I'm looking for, but I'm looking for something,
and I'm going to just find stuff and fuck around
until I find something that's inspiring to me. Yeah, and
(24:03):
like that's really cool. Yeah, And like I think so
many people, including myself, sometimes overthink all this shit when
it comes to like the arrangement of a production or whatever,
and so much of it could just be happenstance of like,
oh I found this thing and it sounded really cool
and we just built off of that. I think you
have to like let go and how I don't know
I got there's an artist I'm working with who like
(24:24):
really wanted specific like instrument. I'm like, like it doesn't
actually matter, Like just like roll with this, you know,
and like see where the experiment goes and then see
if you're missing something. You know, Like you have to
like kind of build the building blocks and like finish
out that experiment and see if it's fun and if
it works and like if you're taking it too seriously.
If you're taking every single part too seriously or like
what the actual instrument sound is or whatever, then you
(24:47):
might just be holding yourself back from actually just creating
and making something meaningful. So like, go with it, man,
you know mic drop.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Ben, that was great.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
That's what I'm done.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I'm done. That's let's send it there. That was awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
H likewise yeah, yeah, so sick man, so percussion, we
did it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yay.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
We'll add it to the list of various things within
the mix that we talked about, various instruments within the
context of the mix that we've talked about.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Ben, you're the man. Thank you for doing this today.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah you too. Carl's good to see you again. Get
to do our catch up again, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And hopefully we will meet up again next week and
or either I will have small human baby child and
we will not be meeting next week, or I'll have
a somehow even more pregnant wife and we.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Will do an other I think I know which way
your wife wants it to go.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Editor. Yes, I think you're right about that one. Ben.
You're the man. I love you. I'm mister Bye Ben, Bye.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Carl, we hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as
we did. If anything here resonated with you, please share
this or your favorite episode with a friend.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Vonner.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Until next time, Bye Ben.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Bye Carl. That's good. I think the outro is great.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.