April 15, 2025 • 19 mins
When unidentified remains are found in a chimney, a police detective takes on a lifelong quest for answers. Years later we know who Chimney Doe is, but are still wondering what happened.
Written by John Lordan, produced by LordanArts.
This is not intended to act as a means of proving or disproving anything related to the investigation. It is a conversation about the current known facts and theories being discussed. Everyone directly or indirectly referred to is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
LordanArts 2025
Written by John Lordan, produced by LordanArts.
This is not intended to act as a means of proving or disproving anything related to the investigation. It is a conversation about the current known facts and theories being discussed. Everyone directly or indirectly referred to is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
LordanArts 2025
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
About seven years ago, I looked into a perplexing case
on brain Scratch, one that would be called Madison's most
baffling murder investigation by a local reporter. On Labor Day
weekend in nineteen eighty nine, a body was found in
a chimney. Investigators would eventually excavate the skeleton and found
several personal items, including what appeared to be a paisley
(00:42):
dress that the person was wearing, But that brought an
interesting twist. The analysis of the bones would conclude that
the person in the dress was born a man. Their
age estimated to be between eighteen and thirty five years old.
There have been some very big recent developments with this case,
so I thought it was time to revisit it. I'm
(01:03):
John Lorden and this is the seriously mysterious story of
Chimney Dough. The body was found on September third of
nineteen eighty nine at the Good and Loud Music Store
in Madison, Wisconsin. The new owner of the store, Steve Lytton,
was attempting to fix a leak in the boiler system.
He knew that one of two clay pipes was leaking.
(01:25):
They ran from the basement up to the chimney. He
looked up into one of the pipes using a flashlight.
He told Madison Magazine about the ordeal, quote, I was
hoping I would see light from the sun going down.
I thought it might tell me where it was leaking.
But something in there caught his eye. It was at
the base of a right angle turn, and it was
(01:47):
a skull and a scapula. He called the police, telling
them that he had found human remains. The unidentified decedent
record on NamUs had few details when I first reviewed
it several years ago. According to that record, there wasn't
any DNA available, which was curious since there was an
entire skeleton image. Recreations noted that the person had hair
(02:09):
that was four to six inches in length, and they
could even determine the hair color brown. Perhaps due to
the location of the remains, the constant exposure to heat
and other environmental elements may have played some part in
destroying the traces of DNA that could be found. The
NAMOUS record also stated that it was a white male.
(02:29):
The remains were skeletonized, and while complete, they were not
totally intact. The person was estimated to stand around five
foot seven and it was noted that the pelvis had
been broken around the same time that the person passed away.
They did have a complete dental chart, however, searches with
that information would not be able to end the mystery.
(02:50):
Investigators were working with an educated guess on the age
and a pretty vague idea of how long the body
had actually been in there. It could have been anywhere
from two months to two years, or even longer. The
Dough Network had a profile with a much stronger description
of the clothing, a sleeveless paisley dress with a matching belt.
(03:11):
Chimney Dough was also wearing a long sleeve, buttoned down
shirt that may have been made of Oxford type cloth,
a medium sized white Stag brand shaggy pile sweater, low heeled,
pointy shoes, and they were wearing one pair of socks
while carrying another. The remains were not wearing any underwear,
and in terms of jewelry, they were found with a
(03:33):
German iron cross medallion. Some other items of interest found
were a butter knife and a pocket comb. The comb
certainly makes sense, but why a butter knife was there
some threat to Chimney Dough. Was the butter knife something
that they grabbed trying to defend themselves. Outside of the
broken pelvis, there didn't seem to be a strong indicator
(03:53):
of the cause of death, which of course left a
huge question. Was this some unbelievable accident or was it
a concealed homicide. Madison Police detective James Grant told the
Wisconsin State Journal that investigators couldn't even get to the bones.
They had to wait for construction equipment to be brought
in two days later to open the bottom of the chimney. Quote.
(04:16):
I still remember going through the bones that day. I
was thinking, I hope you've got a well laminated driver's
license or something, because otherwise we've got a real challenge.
The building had previously been a Christian bookstore, and the
owner of the bookstore expressed shock when told of the
skeleton found in the chimney. Considering that this person likely
(04:37):
died at some point in the nineteen eighties, it had
me wondering if identifying with another gender could have been
part of the motivation for their death and concealment, particularly
when you have a business in that spot that likely
would not have exactly supported that lifestyle at that time.
Gran made a very interesting observation. It was probably the
(04:58):
smallest crime scene I've ever scene, he said. The whole
crime scene was a twenty five by eleven inch pipe.
The television show Hard Copy would come out to Madison
and do a segment on the case the week after
the discovery was made. The producer said of the case,
this is one of the strangest ones we've ever seen.
The more you get into it, the more bizarre it gets.
(05:21):
And he was right. How did this dough fit into
a chimney that in places was smaller than twelve inches
in diameter. Investigators were also clear there was no way
that chimney dough got into that location from inside the building. Unfortunately,
the national exposure from Hard Copy was somewhat salacious and
(05:41):
yielded little results for the investigation. Please check the missing
persons lists, no luck. They considered the possibility that the
person may have been trying to break into the building
to possibly rob it, and perhaps the dress was a disguise.
They cross referenced male residents of the Dane County Jail,
known for robberies, and checked their dental records, hoping to
(06:01):
identify chimney dough. Again, no luck. Photographs of the jewelry
and clothing were gone over time and time again searching
for clues. Experts at the Smithsonian Institute even reconstructed the
victim's face in clay, a somewhat haunting image that would
become a staple for every mystery television show that featured
the case. The remains were examined by an anthropologist, a
(06:25):
forensic pathologist, and a forensic odentologist, as well as the
Wisconsin State Crime Lab. Even though their findings generally agreed,
there were some inconsistencies noted. Detective gran requested an additional
opinion from the FBI. Based on their examination of the
skull and pelvic bones, they were finally able to confirm
(06:46):
the conclusions of the other specialists. They were ninety three
percent sure that the remains were indeed a mail This
also helped better define the age of the victim. They
now believed Chimney Dough was between twenty two and thirty
five years old. One scenario that was discussed was the
possibility that Chimney Doe could have been engaged in prostitution.
(07:07):
Was the broken pelvis trying to tell us that there
were elements of this being a hate crime. Looking at
a map, you can see that there was a barn
located behind the store. Could this barn have been part
of Chimney Dough's final moments. Unfortunately, there was no way
to definitively conclude if the remains were forced into that
tiny location while Chimney Doe was alive or after they
(07:29):
were deceased. Detective Grand determined that only a very slim
body could have inched or even been stuffed down that chimney,
and once in no one could have gotten out. Another
(07:53):
theory that was making the rounds about Chimney Doe was
one we frequently hear when a body's discovered in a
strange place, that this started as a terrible car accident
and the driver hid the body. A book titled one
hundred and one Wisconsin Mysteries by Marv Belusik also had
a write up on this case, and it detailed that
police eventually ruled out the theory that the victim went
(08:15):
down the chimney to burglarize the business. I mean, the
earlier business was a Christian bookstore, the next a record shop.
This certainly was not a high value target, and Detective
Gran also felt the same way. Plus personally, if I
was going to rob a business in that way, I
would likely take some helpful items with me, including maybe
(08:36):
a flashlight, not a butter knife. There have actually been
stories of several would be burglars being rescued by firefighters
after failed attempts to use this Santa Claus method of
breaking into a business. A lot of them don't realize
that some chimneys are not straight drops. If they were,
the rain would put your fire out. Some chimneys include
(08:56):
what you might describe as a gooseneck shape that happens
on the way down. Another interesting theory discussed about this
case was that this location was not far from State Street,
the scene of Madison's wild Halloween parties during the nineteen eighties.
Was this victim actually a party reveler who climbed this
roof and somehow had a terrible accident. It's an interesting
(09:18):
point keeping in mind that Chimney Dough was not wearing
any women's undergarments. Also recalled that there was an extra
pair of socks with the body. Could they have been
used to accentuate the breasts? If so, why wasn't there
two pairs found. Another few points supporting this possibility is
that no purse was found, and the shoes could have
been a thrift store pickup based on my review of them.
(09:41):
I mean, we are talking the nineteen eighties here, but
for a young woman in her twenties, the shoes struck
me as maybe a little too old fashioned. To me,
they almost looked like they're from the early nineteen hundreds.
It's also interesting that investigators never released information on the
manufacturer of those shoes. I was able to look photos
of the iron cross that was found with Chimney Dough,
(10:03):
and initially it reminded me of something you might see
from the German military. There is an organization at the
university nearby known as the Iron Cross Society. It's kind
of a student group slash secret organization, almost like the Freemasons.
Was Chimney Doe part of this organization? Possibly, but this
(10:24):
form of cross has become fairly common in recent years.
If you look at any motorcycle or tattoo shop, you're
probably going to see some version of this type of cross.
As of nineteen ninety three, Detective Grand said that he
kept the remains, saying he was going to continue to
do so until the State Crime Laboratory was up and running.
With their new DNA testing facilities. He also shared that
(10:46):
they hadn't had any leads in years, but he was
waiting for the day when he could give who he
referred to as the Chimney Guy his name back. Detective
gran would retire from the Madison Police Department in nineteen
ninety nine, but he wanted to continue working on cold cases,
and specifically Chimney Dough's case. Quote. It's my most frustrating case.
(11:08):
Not that there weren't others. It's a real hole in
my reflection on my career, he would tell the press.
In twenty ten, an article was published by the Wisconsin
State Journal saying the remains of the slender man in
women's clothes have cooled for twenty one years at the
Dane County Morgue. There was still no mention of DNA
analysis being attempted. Lindsay Lowton was born in Madison and
(11:31):
was a child when the bones were found in the
chimney of her hometown. After college, she joined the Madison
Police Department in two thousand and six and became a
detective six years after that. She essentially begged for this case,
and in twenty eighteen it was a signed to her.
My original goal when I first took this case was
to give them their name back by the thirtieth anniversary,
(11:53):
she would tell the press. The following year, she was
contacted by a member of the DNA Dough Project, Anthony Grave.
Anthony is extremely passionate about cases involving the LGBTQ community,
and this case was one of the first that he
started researching. Detective Luden was soon in touch with DNA
Dough Project co founder Margaret Press. They discussed next steps,
(12:18):
but those steps would take some time. Essentially, they needed
to get approval to take evidence from law enforcement and
get it to a testing lab. This effort would go
on for nearly two years, but in twenty twenty one
it happened. The hair that was found was sent off
to Astria Forensics in California. They are one of the
leading labs that handle a very specific challenge with DNA analysis.
(12:41):
They can extract DNA from rootless hair samples. Astria knew
that this case would be a challenge even for them,
but they got to work. In twenty twenty two, someone
that was desperately waiting to hear about that sample would
run out of time. Retired Detective James gran As away.
Detective Luton would tell her reporter, I am sad. I
(13:04):
was not able to give him a big update before
his passing, but I will continue to think of him
as we work on the case. She was now carrying
the torch on her own and she didn't know it yet,
but she was getting very close to the finish line.
Astraa Forensics had pulled it off. The rootless hair found
with the body came back with a full DNA profile
(13:25):
and the DNA Dough Project got to work on the
genetic genealogy. They uploaded the profile to jeedmatch pro and
family tree DNA. During a presentation I attended given by
the DNA Dough Project at Advocacy Con twenty twenty five,
they made a very interesting observation about this work. The
DNA sequencing is a very science driven process, where the
(13:47):
genetic genealogy is more of an art. Their work is
to blend those two together to find the answer, and
as they have done for many cases now, they came
through again. Ultimately, it would take thirty four years to
identify those remains found in the chimney. Chimney Doe's real
name is Ronnie Joe Kirk DNA dough Project team leader
(14:11):
Gwen Napp said this was such a unique case with
adoption and multiple generations of different marriages. The shrewd genealogy
work done by my team was amazing to tease out
the various relationships. We're so excited that we can give
Ronnie Kirk his name back and hope his family has
some closure for Ronnie being missing for so long. Ronnie
(14:33):
Joe Kirk was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in nineteen forty two.
He would have been forty seven years old when his
remains were found in nineteen eighty nine, which begs the
question how long was he in that chimney and when
did his tragic fate befall him. The estimate that the
remains were there for two years would mean that he
was forty five at the time of his death. The
(14:54):
original age estimates of twenty two to thirty five years
old don't seem like a strong match for that. Could
he have been in there much longer. Ronnie was adopted
and raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma, eventually attending high school there.
What looks like a yearbook photo of him is now
a staple of the online articles detailling this story. A
(15:14):
marriage certificate details that Ronnie's first marriage happened in nineteen
sixty two in Ottawa County, Oklahoma. They would have two children,
and that relationship ended in divorce. He would remarry and
have another child. His last contact with his family was
in nineteen seventy, when he divorced his second wife in Missouri.
All of Ronnie's children are now in their fifties. The
(15:37):
two from his first marriage didn't know about their third
half sibling. Ronnie has ties to Oklahoma, Missouri, Texas, Alabama,
and of course Wisconsin. But investigators still have a lot
to figure out. How did Ronnie wind up in Madison,
how did he die, when exactly did he die? And
how long was his body in that chimney. None of
(16:00):
this is lost on Detective Lutin. I thought I would
find relief, but it's opened up ten thousand more questions,
she would say. The New York Post found something interesting
that maybe part of the puzzle related to that pelvic injury.
A nineteen fifty seven newspaper article reported that a fourteen
year old boy name Ronnie Joe Kirk was riding a
(16:21):
scooter when he was hit by a car. The age
seems right, but that injury should have been long healed,
and the description of the damage to the pelvis bone
given in the databases made it seem like it was
damaged at the time of his death. Of course, there's
also the question about how he was dressed, and there's
a possible answer to that. DNA dough Project co team
(16:43):
leader Meghan Paska said in her release, people are going
to speculate about the so called dress, and we feel
that it was mislabeled as such since we have found
no further evidence to suggest Ronnie ever identified as anything
other than male. At a press comp conference, Madison Police
Chief Sean Barnes stated that they're still looking for answers
(17:05):
and help. That's why we need help from the community.
Someone will remember him and will do everything to try
to trace down if he worked here, if he lived here,
if he was just passing through or going somewhere else,
We don't know, he said at that press conference. Someone
else in that press conference was very proud of all
the work that went into this case. Detective Jamie Gran,
(17:29):
the son of retired detective James Gran, was asked what
his father would think of the discovery he'd be thrilled.
Jamie said he'd be over the moon. Ronnie Joe Kirk's
family has been contacted, but they're asking for privacy. Madison
Police are still at work on this case and asking
anyone who recognizes him or has any information to call
(17:50):
the detective that's still carrying the torch. You can reach
Detective Lindsay Loutin directly at six zero eight two two
nine eight two one five. Quote. I'm open to all
calls and any input of people that might have shared
a moment in time with Ronnie and can help me
fill in who he was and where he spent his time,
(18:10):
places he worked anything. We've gone thirty four years not
knowing who he was, and so we're kind of starting
a new phase of the investigation at this point. Do
you have any comments or a case you'd like to suggest,
Feel free to send it to me. You can find
a case submission form at Lordenarts dot com. Thank you,
The Wisconsin State Journal, Madison Magazine, Channel three thousand, dot com,
(18:34):
News nine, hard copy, inside edition, WPR, The New York Post,
and Wikipedia for information contributing to today's story. This episode
was written by John Lordon and produced by lord En Arts.
Thank you to our audience who joined us for the
recording session hosted live on the YouTube channel Lord and
Arts Studio. Too Special. Thanks to seriously mysterious financial supporters
(18:55):
Scary Poppins, Robert Martin, Mel Stephen and Flotilla. Most of all,
thank you for listening. I'm John Lordon. Please join me
again next week for another case I know you'll find
seriously mysterious
About seven years ago, I looked into a perplexing case
on brain Scratch, one that would be called Madison's most
baffling murder investigation by a local reporter. On Labor Day
weekend in nineteen eighty nine, a body was found in
a chimney. Investigators would eventually excavate the skeleton and found
several personal items, including what appeared to be a paisley
(00:42):
dress that the person was wearing, But that brought an
interesting twist. The analysis of the bones would conclude that
the person in the dress was born a man. Their
age estimated to be between eighteen and thirty five years old.
There have been some very big recent developments with this case,
so I thought it was time to revisit it. I'm
(01:03):
John Lorden and this is the seriously mysterious story of
Chimney Dough. The body was found on September third of
nineteen eighty nine at the Good and Loud Music Store
in Madison, Wisconsin. The new owner of the store, Steve Lytton,
was attempting to fix a leak in the boiler system.
He knew that one of two clay pipes was leaking.
(01:25):
They ran from the basement up to the chimney. He
looked up into one of the pipes using a flashlight.
He told Madison Magazine about the ordeal, quote, I was
hoping I would see light from the sun going down.
I thought it might tell me where it was leaking.
But something in there caught his eye. It was at
the base of a right angle turn, and it was
(01:47):
a skull and a scapula. He called the police, telling
them that he had found human remains. The unidentified decedent
record on NamUs had few details when I first reviewed
it several years ago. According to that record, there wasn't
any DNA available, which was curious since there was an
entire skeleton image. Recreations noted that the person had hair
(02:09):
that was four to six inches in length, and they
could even determine the hair color brown. Perhaps due to
the location of the remains, the constant exposure to heat
and other environmental elements may have played some part in
destroying the traces of DNA that could be found. The
NAMOUS record also stated that it was a white male.
(02:29):
The remains were skeletonized, and while complete, they were not
totally intact. The person was estimated to stand around five
foot seven and it was noted that the pelvis had
been broken around the same time that the person passed away.
They did have a complete dental chart, however, searches with
that information would not be able to end the mystery.
(02:50):
Investigators were working with an educated guess on the age
and a pretty vague idea of how long the body
had actually been in there. It could have been anywhere
from two months to two years, or even longer. The
Dough Network had a profile with a much stronger description
of the clothing, a sleeveless paisley dress with a matching belt.
(03:11):
Chimney Dough was also wearing a long sleeve, buttoned down
shirt that may have been made of Oxford type cloth,
a medium sized white Stag brand shaggy pile sweater, low heeled,
pointy shoes, and they were wearing one pair of socks
while carrying another. The remains were not wearing any underwear,
and in terms of jewelry, they were found with a
(03:33):
German iron cross medallion. Some other items of interest found
were a butter knife and a pocket comb. The comb
certainly makes sense, but why a butter knife was there
some threat to Chimney Dough. Was the butter knife something
that they grabbed trying to defend themselves. Outside of the
broken pelvis, there didn't seem to be a strong indicator
(03:53):
of the cause of death, which of course left a
huge question. Was this some unbelievable accident or was it
a concealed homicide. Madison Police detective James Grant told the
Wisconsin State Journal that investigators couldn't even get to the bones.
They had to wait for construction equipment to be brought
in two days later to open the bottom of the chimney. Quote.
(04:16):
I still remember going through the bones that day. I
was thinking, I hope you've got a well laminated driver's
license or something, because otherwise we've got a real challenge.
The building had previously been a Christian bookstore, and the
owner of the bookstore expressed shock when told of the
skeleton found in the chimney. Considering that this person likely
(04:37):
died at some point in the nineteen eighties, it had
me wondering if identifying with another gender could have been
part of the motivation for their death and concealment, particularly
when you have a business in that spot that likely
would not have exactly supported that lifestyle at that time.
Gran made a very interesting observation. It was probably the
(04:58):
smallest crime scene I've ever scene, he said. The whole
crime scene was a twenty five by eleven inch pipe.
The television show Hard Copy would come out to Madison
and do a segment on the case the week after
the discovery was made. The producer said of the case,
this is one of the strangest ones we've ever seen.
The more you get into it, the more bizarre it gets.
(05:21):
And he was right. How did this dough fit into
a chimney that in places was smaller than twelve inches
in diameter. Investigators were also clear there was no way
that chimney dough got into that location from inside the building. Unfortunately,
the national exposure from Hard Copy was somewhat salacious and
(05:41):
yielded little results for the investigation. Please check the missing
persons lists, no luck. They considered the possibility that the
person may have been trying to break into the building
to possibly rob it, and perhaps the dress was a disguise.
They cross referenced male residents of the Dane County Jail,
known for robberies, and checked their dental records, hoping to
(06:01):
identify chimney dough. Again, no luck. Photographs of the jewelry
and clothing were gone over time and time again searching
for clues. Experts at the Smithsonian Institute even reconstructed the
victim's face in clay, a somewhat haunting image that would
become a staple for every mystery television show that featured
the case. The remains were examined by an anthropologist, a
(06:25):
forensic pathologist, and a forensic odentologist, as well as the
Wisconsin State Crime Lab. Even though their findings generally agreed,
there were some inconsistencies noted. Detective gran requested an additional
opinion from the FBI. Based on their examination of the
skull and pelvic bones, they were finally able to confirm
(06:46):
the conclusions of the other specialists. They were ninety three
percent sure that the remains were indeed a mail This
also helped better define the age of the victim. They
now believed Chimney Dough was between twenty two and thirty
five years old. One scenario that was discussed was the
possibility that Chimney Doe could have been engaged in prostitution.
(07:07):
Was the broken pelvis trying to tell us that there
were elements of this being a hate crime. Looking at
a map, you can see that there was a barn
located behind the store. Could this barn have been part
of Chimney Dough's final moments. Unfortunately, there was no way
to definitively conclude if the remains were forced into that
tiny location while Chimney Doe was alive or after they
(07:29):
were deceased. Detective Grand determined that only a very slim
body could have inched or even been stuffed down that chimney,
and once in no one could have gotten out. Another
(07:53):
theory that was making the rounds about Chimney Doe was
one we frequently hear when a body's discovered in a
strange place, that this started as a terrible car accident
and the driver hid the body. A book titled one
hundred and one Wisconsin Mysteries by Marv Belusik also had
a write up on this case, and it detailed that
police eventually ruled out the theory that the victim went
(08:15):
down the chimney to burglarize the business. I mean, the
earlier business was a Christian bookstore, the next a record shop.
This certainly was not a high value target, and Detective
Gran also felt the same way. Plus personally, if I
was going to rob a business in that way, I
would likely take some helpful items with me, including maybe
(08:36):
a flashlight, not a butter knife. There have actually been
stories of several would be burglars being rescued by firefighters
after failed attempts to use this Santa Claus method of
breaking into a business. A lot of them don't realize
that some chimneys are not straight drops. If they were,
the rain would put your fire out. Some chimneys include
(08:56):
what you might describe as a gooseneck shape that happens
on the way down. Another interesting theory discussed about this
case was that this location was not far from State Street,
the scene of Madison's wild Halloween parties during the nineteen eighties.
Was this victim actually a party reveler who climbed this
roof and somehow had a terrible accident. It's an interesting
(09:18):
point keeping in mind that Chimney Dough was not wearing
any women's undergarments. Also recalled that there was an extra
pair of socks with the body. Could they have been
used to accentuate the breasts? If so, why wasn't there
two pairs found. Another few points supporting this possibility is
that no purse was found, and the shoes could have
been a thrift store pickup based on my review of them.
(09:41):
I mean, we are talking the nineteen eighties here, but
for a young woman in her twenties, the shoes struck
me as maybe a little too old fashioned. To me,
they almost looked like they're from the early nineteen hundreds.
It's also interesting that investigators never released information on the
manufacturer of those shoes. I was able to look photos
of the iron cross that was found with Chimney Dough,
(10:03):
and initially it reminded me of something you might see
from the German military. There is an organization at the
university nearby known as the Iron Cross Society. It's kind
of a student group slash secret organization, almost like the Freemasons.
Was Chimney Doe part of this organization? Possibly, but this
(10:24):
form of cross has become fairly common in recent years.
If you look at any motorcycle or tattoo shop, you're
probably going to see some version of this type of cross.
As of nineteen ninety three, Detective Grand said that he
kept the remains, saying he was going to continue to
do so until the State Crime Laboratory was up and running.
With their new DNA testing facilities. He also shared that
(10:46):
they hadn't had any leads in years, but he was
waiting for the day when he could give who he
referred to as the Chimney Guy his name back. Detective
gran would retire from the Madison Police Department in nineteen
ninety nine, but he wanted to continue working on cold cases,
and specifically Chimney Dough's case. Quote. It's my most frustrating case.
(11:08):
Not that there weren't others. It's a real hole in
my reflection on my career, he would tell the press.
In twenty ten, an article was published by the Wisconsin
State Journal saying the remains of the slender man in
women's clothes have cooled for twenty one years at the
Dane County Morgue. There was still no mention of DNA
analysis being attempted. Lindsay Lowton was born in Madison and
(11:31):
was a child when the bones were found in the
chimney of her hometown. After college, she joined the Madison
Police Department in two thousand and six and became a
detective six years after that. She essentially begged for this case,
and in twenty eighteen it was a signed to her.
My original goal when I first took this case was
to give them their name back by the thirtieth anniversary,
(11:53):
she would tell the press. The following year, she was
contacted by a member of the DNA Dough Project, Anthony Grave.
Anthony is extremely passionate about cases involving the LGBTQ community,
and this case was one of the first that he
started researching. Detective Luden was soon in touch with DNA
Dough Project co founder Margaret Press. They discussed next steps,
(12:18):
but those steps would take some time. Essentially, they needed
to get approval to take evidence from law enforcement and
get it to a testing lab. This effort would go
on for nearly two years, but in twenty twenty one
it happened. The hair that was found was sent off
to Astria Forensics in California. They are one of the
leading labs that handle a very specific challenge with DNA analysis.
(12:41):
They can extract DNA from rootless hair samples. Astria knew
that this case would be a challenge even for them,
but they got to work. In twenty twenty two, someone
that was desperately waiting to hear about that sample would
run out of time. Retired Detective James gran As away.
Detective Luton would tell her reporter, I am sad. I
(13:04):
was not able to give him a big update before
his passing, but I will continue to think of him
as we work on the case. She was now carrying
the torch on her own and she didn't know it yet,
but she was getting very close to the finish line.
Astraa Forensics had pulled it off. The rootless hair found
with the body came back with a full DNA profile
(13:25):
and the DNA Dough Project got to work on the
genetic genealogy. They uploaded the profile to jeedmatch pro and
family tree DNA. During a presentation I attended given by
the DNA Dough Project at Advocacy Con twenty twenty five,
they made a very interesting observation about this work. The
DNA sequencing is a very science driven process, where the
(13:47):
genetic genealogy is more of an art. Their work is
to blend those two together to find the answer, and
as they have done for many cases now, they came
through again. Ultimately, it would take thirty four years to
identify those remains found in the chimney. Chimney Doe's real
name is Ronnie Joe Kirk DNA dough Project team leader
(14:11):
Gwen Napp said this was such a unique case with
adoption and multiple generations of different marriages. The shrewd genealogy
work done by my team was amazing to tease out
the various relationships. We're so excited that we can give
Ronnie Kirk his name back and hope his family has
some closure for Ronnie being missing for so long. Ronnie
(14:33):
Joe Kirk was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in nineteen forty two.
He would have been forty seven years old when his
remains were found in nineteen eighty nine, which begs the
question how long was he in that chimney and when
did his tragic fate befall him. The estimate that the
remains were there for two years would mean that he
was forty five at the time of his death. The
(14:54):
original age estimates of twenty two to thirty five years
old don't seem like a strong match for that. Could
he have been in there much longer. Ronnie was adopted
and raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma, eventually attending high school there.
What looks like a yearbook photo of him is now
a staple of the online articles detailling this story. A
(15:14):
marriage certificate details that Ronnie's first marriage happened in nineteen
sixty two in Ottawa County, Oklahoma. They would have two children,
and that relationship ended in divorce. He would remarry and
have another child. His last contact with his family was
in nineteen seventy, when he divorced his second wife in Missouri.
All of Ronnie's children are now in their fifties. The
(15:37):
two from his first marriage didn't know about their third
half sibling. Ronnie has ties to Oklahoma, Missouri, Texas, Alabama,
and of course Wisconsin. But investigators still have a lot
to figure out. How did Ronnie wind up in Madison,
how did he die, when exactly did he die? And
how long was his body in that chimney. None of
(16:00):
this is lost on Detective Lutin. I thought I would
find relief, but it's opened up ten thousand more questions,
she would say. The New York Post found something interesting
that maybe part of the puzzle related to that pelvic injury.
A nineteen fifty seven newspaper article reported that a fourteen
year old boy name Ronnie Joe Kirk was riding a
(16:21):
scooter when he was hit by a car. The age
seems right, but that injury should have been long healed,
and the description of the damage to the pelvis bone
given in the databases made it seem like it was
damaged at the time of his death. Of course, there's
also the question about how he was dressed, and there's
a possible answer to that. DNA dough Project co team
(16:43):
leader Meghan Paska said in her release, people are going
to speculate about the so called dress, and we feel
that it was mislabeled as such since we have found
no further evidence to suggest Ronnie ever identified as anything
other than male. At a press comp conference, Madison Police
Chief Sean Barnes stated that they're still looking for answers
(17:05):
and help. That's why we need help from the community.
Someone will remember him and will do everything to try
to trace down if he worked here, if he lived here,
if he was just passing through or going somewhere else,
We don't know, he said at that press conference. Someone
else in that press conference was very proud of all
the work that went into this case. Detective Jamie Gran,
(17:29):
the son of retired detective James Gran, was asked what
his father would think of the discovery he'd be thrilled.
Jamie said he'd be over the moon. Ronnie Joe Kirk's
family has been contacted, but they're asking for privacy. Madison
Police are still at work on this case and asking
anyone who recognizes him or has any information to call
(17:50):
the detective that's still carrying the torch. You can reach
Detective Lindsay Loutin directly at six zero eight two two
nine eight two one five. Quote. I'm open to all
calls and any input of people that might have shared
a moment in time with Ronnie and can help me
fill in who he was and where he spent his time,
(18:10):
places he worked anything. We've gone thirty four years not
knowing who he was, and so we're kind of starting
a new phase of the investigation at this point. Do
you have any comments or a case you'd like to suggest,
Feel free to send it to me. You can find
a case submission form at Lordenarts dot com. Thank you,
The Wisconsin State Journal, Madison Magazine, Channel three thousand, dot com,
(18:34):
News nine, hard copy, inside edition, WPR, The New York Post,
and Wikipedia for information contributing to today's story. This episode
was written by John Lordon and produced by lord En Arts.
Thank you to our audience who joined us for the
recording session hosted live on the YouTube channel Lord and
Arts Studio. Too Special. Thanks to seriously mysterious financial supporters
(18:55):
Scary Poppins, Robert Martin, Mel Stephen and Flotilla. Most of all,
thank you for listening. I'm John Lordon. Please join me
again next week for another case I know you'll find
seriously mysterious
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