May 29, 2025 • 44 mins
Join us on our new podcast Tantra Talks with Devi and Chris where we talk about everything Tantra!
Tantra Talks – Episode 4 with Devi Ward Erickson & Dr. Chris Erickson (Listen wherever you get your podcasts!)
If you’ve been anywhere near spiritual Instagram lately, you’ve probably seen it:
Aubrey Marcus, polyamory backlash, and hot takes galore.The ongoing conversation around non-monogamy has made one thing very clear: People are craving more nuance around love, sex, and spiritual growth.
Which is exactly why this episode of Tantra Talks couldn’t have come at a better time.In Episode 4, we dive into one of the biggest myths in the Western Tantra world:
Do you have to be polyamorous to practice Tantra?
Short answer: No.
But we go way deeper than that.
Tantra Talks – Episode 4 with Devi Ward Erickson & Dr. Chris Erickson (Listen wherever you get your podcasts!)
If you’ve been anywhere near spiritual Instagram lately, you’ve probably seen it:
Aubrey Marcus, polyamory backlash, and hot takes galore.The ongoing conversation around non-monogamy has made one thing very clear: People are craving more nuance around love, sex, and spiritual growth.
Which is exactly why this episode of Tantra Talks couldn’t have come at a better time.In Episode 4, we dive into one of the biggest myths in the Western Tantra world:
Do you have to be polyamorous to practice Tantra?
Short answer: No.
But we go way deeper than that.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, I'm Davy Ward Ericson and thank you so much
for listening to Sex's Medicine. If you love Sex's medicine,
I want to let you know about my new podcast,
Contra Talks. We're dropping episodes every week, so for those
of you who are still thirsty for sexist medicine, we
haven't dropped a new episode since twenty twenty one. I'm
gonna invite you to head on over to Tontra Talks
so you can get your you can get your pill,
(00:23):
you can get your episodes dropped every Thursday. Make sure
you subscribe like all that good stuff so you don't
miss one juicy drop of this contra goodness. Make sure
you head on over to Tontra talksmedia dot com and
make sure you like and subscribe to get all the
notification bells tontra talksmedia dot com. Hey, welcome back to
(00:43):
Tontra Talks. I am Davey ward Ericson.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I'm Chris Ericson, and we are.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Fucking ecstatic to be answering one of your questions once
again today. Please send us your questions at connect the
Authentic tntra dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And no questions, Yeah, and we will answer the.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Moment of our upcoming episodes. You are listening to us
on our new podcasting mics for your ear orgasm, your
eargasm pleasure. We wanted to make sure that the sound
was delicious for your ear so that you can enjoy
listening to these podcasts as much as we enjoy sharing
(01:18):
them with you, as much as we enjoy talking in
your ear. We want you to enjoy. We want you
to enjoy us all up in your.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Ear drum, whispering sweet Tntra into your ear.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
In your ear hole. Okay, that's really gross and discussing anyway.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So for this episode of the Tundra Ducts, we are
going to be talking about monogamy versus non monogamy. I
guess they don't have to be in a battle, but
monogamy non monogamy in Tontra because this is again a
question that comes up a lot, and there are a
lot of misconceptions. I know, when I first started training
(01:51):
in TNTRA, there was an assumption that because I was
a Tantrica, I automatically was polyamorous and wanted to have
sex with lots of people. I don't know a whole lot
why polyamory and Tandra are tied together, honestly, but that
was a thing. And I've had my own journey of
pre TNTRA being in polyamorous relationships and post tondra being
(02:14):
in polyamorous and monogamous relationships.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So we want to give you our.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Perspective as a married, currently monogamous tontric couple who practices
authentic lineage based TNTRA under the umbrella of the shank
Picagu lineage. And we also happened to live in a
household with our root lama, with our Buddhist lama, so.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
For real, absolutely you mentioned something already that I think
is really interesting, like why is there this connection between
polyamory and in many cases not even polyamory, it's just
multiple bodies slamming together.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And tantra.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And I think it has to do with how tantra
came to the West and how it's been quite honestly
warped and abused in that process. So I think that
that's primarily where that comes from, because I've seen that too.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I mean, there's a lot of misconceptions about this.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
You don't have to be polyamorous, you don't even actually
even have to be sexually active to do tntra.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, that's a good Okay, So let's pause there because
I want people to like breathe and digest that. So
for all y'all out there listening, when you are practicing real, authentic,
lineage based entra, doesn't matter if you're practicing with our
institute or wherever in the world you're practicing, sex is
not required for your countra practice. Sexuality can be incorporated
(03:37):
into your tauntra practice, but you can have a tontra
practice independent of sexual activity entirely.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Like look good, that's what the Buddhist monks do.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Yeah, the Dali Lama is a practitioner and he's not
sexually active exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
A lot of these folks aren't even fucking themselves.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So I mean we're talking like zero zero zero sexual activity.
So so yeah, So, so I want to to start
off this conversation by disclosing my history with this topic
of polyamory, full disclosure, just just because well just kind
of like set the tone.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
No, you know where, so you know where I'm coming from.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So I entered into the world of polyamory as a
young child, as a young woman actually probably in my
early twenties. Like I can't remember exactly how old day was.
But I was living in Hawaii, Awahu, and I was
in a relationship with a with a man and a
(04:34):
woman who were both around my my age in our
you know, early in the mid twenties. And that was,
if I'm recalling correctly, that was that was my first
like official poly I maybe I want to call it
poly We were threesome, So I don't know if you
want to call that polyamory, but we were we were
a three a three way situation, three way relationship, and
(04:55):
you know, and to be fair, before that, when I
was a stripper in in Detroit, I.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Would yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So I don't know, I can't say that I had
like three way relationships, but I certainly had I had
three way hookups, three way encounters. I mean, and and
the other thing is, you know, I'm I'm bisexual, and
so for me, it was very common to have a
boyfriend and a girlfriend, and sometimes my boyfriend and my
(05:24):
girlfriend played together. And I guess we just didn't consider
that polyamory because it was like nineteen ninety four, right,
I mean, we just didn't like that just wasn't the
terminology at that point. It was just like, hey do
you want to come over and like, you know, hang
out and let's all fuck like that.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Was just just normal. It was just normal for our lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So so then you know, fast forwarding a few years
later and it was an official I think that's when
I was first introduced to the language of polyamory. It
was with this this threatle I was a part of
right and that was lovely for the time that it was,
and it was also not lovely. I will say that
that for me, my emotional maturity was not such that
(06:08):
I could effectively navigate that type of relationship. And y'all,
I had so much severe complex post.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So for those of you who don't know me, who
only know me professionally on TV, you know, more disclosure,
like I have had for most of my life, severe
complex post traumatic stress disorder. So if you don't know
what that is and the manifestations of it, go ahead
and google it, because it's a whole rabbit hole to
fall down. You know, it's a real diagnosis, it's a
real thing. It's complex post traumatic stress disorder, which is
(06:41):
normal for people who have adverse childhood experiences and on
the adverse childhood experience test, that you can take. There's
like ten things that mean that you're probably gonna have,
you know, PTSD. I've got ten. I've got eight of them.
I've got eight of the ten. Eight of the ten
happened when I was, you know, a child. So I've
been fucked up most Luckily I'm not so fucked up anymore.
(07:06):
But anyway, so this circling back that we are going
somewhere with this.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I am going somewhere with this.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Circling back to my early adulthood experiences with polyamory. My
complex post traumatic stress disorder was so fucking severe. I
mean I couldn't have a healthy relationship with like anything,
Like I was just incapable of it. So so I
blessed the experience. It was a wonderful experience, and I
also recognized that I had way too much trauma to
(07:34):
be able to navigate that type of dynamic in.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
A way that was like healthy and sustainable.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Well, a lot of people, just on their own, like
even a monogamous relationship, have enough damage in trauma to
make like a monogamous relationship difficult.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I don't speak for myself here.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah, and so adding yet another person to that, it
just it makes it much more complex. I would like
to very quickly draw a little bit of a line
between polyamory, which is which to me, and maybe I'm
off base here, but maybe not to me, polyamory is
more like committed relationships with more than one person, whereas
(08:10):
there's also just playtime, which is the hookup right with
more than one person.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well, I like to say the way that i've I
observe quote unquote polyamory being practiced in mainstream America, and
it's changed now, I would say it's it's changed recently
because there are some very integris voices in the market,
i'll say, or in the in the industry, there are
(08:38):
some very integra's voices that are becoming louder, and I
celebrate and I applaud those voices because they are setting
a beautiful example of how to do polyamory and non
monogamy like whatever word you want to put there, but
just non monogamy. They are role modeling and setting really
beautiful examples for how to do this in a way
that's truly an integrity, ethical, responsible and like supporting the
(09:03):
love and the humanity and the connection between everybody. So
those voices, I will put some links down down below
this episode. But I'm gonna give a shout out to Melcasidy,
who's actually publishing a book, who's been a friend of
mine for a while, who I'm looking forward to their book.
And then I'm also gonna say Tyomi Morgan has been
sitting a very beautiful role modeling on how to do
(09:28):
polyamory in a way that's ethical and integris. Yeah, so
I just want to shout out those two folks because
they are role modeling in a way that.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I think is really healthy to follow.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
So anyway, yeah, well, again, the relationships with a single
person are complex because we carry our own complexities with
us and both parties do, and it takes a long
time to sort that out. Even in a one on
one monogamous relationship. With a polyamorous situation, that multiplies, and
(09:58):
so it's.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Not just like yeah, let's go.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
I mean, unless it's just a one night stand thing whatever,
which is fun, that can be very fun. But again,
it's not just something you just kind of randomly do.
You have to sort of think about it. You have
to be prepared, and it helps to have that level
of emotional maturity going into it.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I mean, that's certainly.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
What I would emphasize about this, my own history with
this is is quite limited. Its stems from a former
partner that I was with, after a couple of years
of relationship with a rather lovely woman, said I have
a secret and I've never told anybody. I'd like to
share it with you, and I was like sure. She said,
I'm bisexual. What do you think about bringing another woman
into the bed? And my initial response was a combination
(10:43):
of all hell yeah and only shit, what am I
supposed to do with this? It was like a combination
of celebration and panic all at once. It was a
very strange thing. I come from a very sort of
a strict ultra like you don't talk about sex at all.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It's very private.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
It's it's great and it's fine, but it's pride. It's
behind the closed doors and nobody talks about it ever.
And so for this to come out was, like, I mean,
it almost put me in a state of panic at first.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It was. It was really confronting.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
And my first couple of tries at it were really
clunky and awkward and they felt.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Gross, what do you mean your tries at it? Do
you mean?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Like?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
What do you mean tries, how do you like try.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Literally even even the opportunity for like a hookup, like
to get over the like panic feeling was was difficult.
I mean it was a marvelous opportunity, amazing wonderful like
in concept and in practice it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I mean it was, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
So, I mean because I had all kinds of I
had all kinds of performance anxiety at the time, I
had all kinds of like all kinds of like trauma
that was totally unresolved. I'm like, oh my god, what
if that comes up when I'm in the middle of this, Ah,
what do I do? And that's before I even got started, right, So,
I mean that was that that.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Was a component of this that I had never considered.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
I always just thought, you know, the port and style,
you know, they show up, but the way you go
and there everybody's good.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Uh No, it was way way, way more complex than that,
much more complex than that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
And you you make such a great point because again
the way you know, like making a distinction between threesome hookups,
that's what they're called manaja twas. It took me away,
like figure out minaja twa was making a distinction between Manajatoa.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
And what you said.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
This polyamory is like multiple relationships or loving relationships with
multiple people, you know, the one night stand MANAJATOI or
you know, just kind of playdate the way it's portrayed,
like you said, I'm born and then in movies or whatever,
it's like it's supposed to be this great thing, but
holy fucking shit, especially if it's like two women and
a guy, there's got to be so much that comes
(12:49):
up for you. It's like so much insecurity, so much
like that you're just kind of slammed in the face with.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Right, without a doubt, without a doubt, really confronting, like
surprising so for me, like enormously so to the point
where where after you know, again, I left.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
All of this up to my former partner.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
She she chose the person that she wanted to bring in,
and I was kind of like standing back a little bit.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
This is the way you're supposed to do it, quote unquote,
like at least like in the swingers community, right, because
that was also like part of the things. Well, well
we'll fill you in on like how this ties into
our relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
In just a minute, because that's pertinent.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
But yeah, that's that's like type the you know, the typical,
like the etiquette, I'll say in Hi, Benny, Bennie has
now joined the Benny Benny is our third Now we
actually have we have a polyarmius relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
With our pets.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
No, obviously it's non sexual. Obviously you guys were not
like that.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
But but our dogs.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Have have claim claim have claims upon us. And so
Benny has joined our our conversation. So if you hear
him snorting and breathing in the microphone, that's his contribution
to your listening experience. So so so anyway, I'm sorry,
go on. So in the swinger community, I'm sorry. In
the swinger community, the etiquette is that the woman chooses,
but that's not necessarily the etiquette and other like all other.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Case, no, always the case.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
And again because of my own situation, like I was
never I was never a one night stand hookup, meat
market type of a person anyway, So so for me,
it was just.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Doubling that.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
And and I never really got into the whole swinger
scene thing.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
It just didn't feel comfortable to me. It felt.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Quite the opposite, actually quite the opposite. And and again
we'll we'll I'm sure we'll cycle back, because there there
were elements about that that changed when I got into
a relationship that had a.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Bit more depth to it.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
And uh yeah, so but I want to bring this
back really quickly to the relationship between between polyamory and
contra Again, it's if somebody says, oh, you got to
be polyamorous to be they're lying, They're they're flat out
they're they're trying to get something from you. Uh, they're
trying to sell you something. And that is that it's
just not correct. It's simply not correct and to be
(15:03):
and just to be aware of that right off the bat.
So a lot of people I remember we we hosted
a we hosted a workshop, you and I and one
of the participants his wife had signed up for it,
and he approached me and said, are.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
We gonna have to get naked? Are we gonna have
to be with other partners? I'm like, no, not at all.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
So this is very I mean, it's a very real concern,
particularly for those that are like committed monogamous relationships and like, oh,
how does this play out?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right? So just again, do your homework on this.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Recognize what's what if you're dealing with neo tantra, they
may have a very different answer to this, but certainly
in lineage based tuntra. Now, there is an element to
traditional tantra that is highly transgressive, right, It crosses the
boundaries from time to time of what's acceptable or.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Normal right by society exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So a lot of the so again, like the wisdom
holder is an untouchable black woman in like Naguma, well.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
We believe, we can't you know, we're we don't have
we don't have verification on this exactly, but we believe
given the context.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
She was, Yeah, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
But you know there's there's you know, talk of doing
practices and graveyards and talk of doing practicism underneath you know,
solo trees out in the in the hills, which are
supposed to be places where spirits gather and you're not
supposed to go there, right, So it's there is that
element of oh, don't go there that tantra says, why not?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Right, So they to transform judgments, to transform dualism, to.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Transform the judgment of it, and to transform the strict
either or.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Of it, and so the other the other thing.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
So, and I love that you're bringing about this back
to TNTRA and polyamory because that's what we're here for.
But the other thing that comes up for me in
terms of the concept of polyamory with TNTRA is when
we look at like the roots of Contra Buddhism in
India and then the founder of.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
You know, the at least the cagulineage.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I believe pamas Ambaba, like pamas Ambaba and Yeesh Sogio
established Buddhism in Tibet through their sexual union practice and
they had multiple lovers, and so there's this concept of
when you know, in Tantra, when we've purified attachment, you
know that that there isn't that then having multiple partners,
(17:26):
you know, it gives you like an openness and like
you're not attached and all the things that go along
with monogamy or the assumptions of monogamy. It's like you know,
grasping attachment, jealousy, that sort of thing. So the concept
in like, you know, the role models, some of the
role models that we've actually had in Contra Buddhism have
actually modeled for us that you know, the non attachment
(17:48):
to to monogamy, the non attachment to that type of
relationship structure. That being said, what those folks were doing,
like actually engaging in utilizing sexual pleasure and sexual energy
as a form of worship and as a form as
(18:08):
a as a vehicle of transformation is not the way
I have witnessed polyamor being practiced in the neotontra or
sexual you know, sacred sexuality containers.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Shall we say so?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So what I have witnessed, what I have witnessed is,
like I was saying before, is polyfuckery. So they say polyamory,
but what they mean is polyfuckery, and it's really just
an excuse to have sex with multiple people without accountability
and without having to you know, address like normal relationship concerns,
(18:49):
because when you're in a monogamous relationship, you're.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Required to show up for that and you're required to
confront your blocks.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You're required if you want the relations if you want
the relationship to you have to be willing to work
through your shit. You know, there's no way that any
of us in this culture that we grow grow up
in come out of that without some type of fucking
attachment trauma, without some type of attachment wounding, and the
attachment wounding is relational wounding. Right, So there's no way
(19:18):
that we come out of the culture that we live in,
being raised in the culture that we live in without
having some scars, without having some wounds, and those wounds
are going to rear their beautiful, ugly heads in intimate relationship.
That's why we partner with people usually is because they
you know, we the deeper we go, the more intense
(19:38):
it gets in relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And so what I've.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Witnessed is folks often using polyfuckery as a way to
avoid commitment. And there's a way to avoid like having
to go into those really deep, like scary, you know,
wounded places that require us to literally transform our demons,
(20:01):
not just face them, but you need to like fucking
like literally transform.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
And befriend them, right.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And so's that's one of the things that I've witnessed.
Now again, y'all, I've been in the field since two
thousand and eight, Okay, so that's seventeen years at this point.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
I know, I have.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Tea, I know a lot about a lot of things
because I've been here in the background, like oh who me, Yeah,
I'm just here and like, you know, paying attention, watching
how it goes down.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
And so what I've seen, you know, throughout this is again,
as I said, the polyfuckery as opposed to polyamory.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
I'm just gonna keep saying that.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So and then again this expectation that if you are
a ton Trica and your sexual liberation equates to I'm
gonna say sexual expression, but the way sexual expression is expected,
the unspoken, you know, expectation, is that your sexual expression
means that you're going to want to fuck all the time,
(21:01):
anytime and with anybody, and if you don't, you're not
enlightened or realized enough. And so I actually see I
see in in Neo Tantra and sacred sexuality, the concepts
around polyamory and polyfuckery being used to gaslight people about,
(21:21):
you know, basic human emotions and.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Also their intuition.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Like y'all, you know, if you're in a relationship with
multiple people and something feels funky, maybe something fucking is funky,
Like maybe there's some shit going on under the fucking
surface that you are attuning to and it may in
other people may not even really be aware of.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
It, but you may be a tuning to something.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And then to be gaslt about your intuition and being
told that you're just being jealous, or you're being attached,
or you're not being enlightened enough, that sort of thing.
So I really see the weaponization of I see in
the realm of polyamory. I see the weapon and you
know the way it's practice. Through the years I've witnessed
(22:02):
and some currently today, I've really seen the weaponization of
you know, of of what I would call normal human
response to boundaries and potential boundary violations and then darvo
you know, deny attack, reverse victim offender.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
At a lot of psychological abuse. I personally have seen
a lot of fucking psychological psychological.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Abuse in the realm of polyamory, which is why in
the beginning of this episode I highlighted those voices for you,
because those are folks that I've known personally and I've
witnessed how they practice their polyamory. They're multiple love and
it's ethical, and it isn't like they're not fucking gaslighting
each other and their partners and shit.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
So if we think about sort of one of the
primary features of lineage based traditional sort of approaches to
tantra is that has to do with the dissolution of
the ego and what I've seen, and I haven't been
in as you know, since two thousand eight, but you've
been around it for a little bit. What I've seen
is that more often than not, this the polyamory, or
(23:06):
rather the polypuckory, is used to increase strength and cultivate
the ego rather than dissolve it, and which is completely
the opposite of what tantra is.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Intended to do.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
That point right there, Yes, wow, say that again.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, it's what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Creases, It increases and cultivates the ego. Look at how
many Look at how many notches are on my belt.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I mean that's just like playboy culture or culture. Right,
It's like and like such avoidant behavior.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Again in some cases, in many cases.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah exactly, I mean padmasa Mama or Hugh Hefner. Which
one do you want?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Right, I mean, I'll take Hugh Hefner's money.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
But I mean, so again, it's this, It's almost a
complete inversion of what the tradition is actually about. Hence
all the confusion about what trauma is or what not.
What trauma is, what is and what it does and
how it operates and and we go right back to
the meating what makes us think that we have to
be polyamorous in order to be practitioners. That's right, that's
(24:10):
that warp there.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I love that point that you made. It's almost an inversion.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So you're right.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So tantra is about dismantling the ego. It's about liberating
ourselves from dualistic thinking, right, wrong, good, bad, you know whatever.
Like you know, like that two things can't be true simultaneously.
That's you know, dualistic thinking that two things can't be
so so yeah, the fact that it it that it
that it that that that the way polyamory is sometimes
(24:38):
practiced in the field of sacred sexuality and neo tantra
feeds the ego as opposed to dissolves the ego, and
a limit eliminates it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah right yeah, so but and it's.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
And it's and it's bizarre how like then like the again,
this is where the gaslighting is. Like it's like, oh well,
if you have a problem or an issue with the
way your partner is practicing polyamory, oh well, you're just
in your ego. Like it's just like you know, like
how again, like you said, the warping, the warping, right, yeah,
it's really gross. So anyway, so okay, So to bring
(25:11):
us up to speed in relationship to like monogamy, non
monogamy and tontra full disclosure with doctor Ericson and I
so so, Chris and I met actually at a at
a swingers event, so we were it was not an
actual like open swingers party. It wasn't a play it
(25:31):
was it wasn't a play party, but it was a
mutual friend of ours was having a birthday party.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
And that mutual friends happened to own.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
A swinging uh network or be the founders of a
swinging network into the lifestyle in Vancouver. I don't know
if they're still operating. They are, It's like I want
to give them a plug as well. They are awesome
into the lifestyle Vancouver. Again, I don't know if they're
operating anymore because we're not Vancouver, have been for years.
But talk about like like the contrast between the space
(26:01):
that they created versus other spaces I investigated, Like it
was so there was such beauty, wholesome and I'm gonna
say sacredness. It was like they really did a fantastic
job and curating experiences.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I mean just they curated really great experiences. So anyway,
so this.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Birthday party we met, we were both in relationships with
other people. I was in a relationship with a woman
at the time. Chris was also in a relationship with
a woman at the time. We share we share that interest.
That worked got really well for everybody. But we met
and actually my girlfriend and and you.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
My girlfriend and Chris, you know.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
We were both fish out of wat Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
you're completely in one. And I think what happened is
that I noticed how nervous she looked, and I resonated
with that because I was feeling the sort of the
same way. And we just started chatting and and that
that was really nice. And then I remember you showing
up into the conversation. I was just I was floored
by you the moment I saw you to be perfectly
(26:59):
on it, and so was my partner at the time.
She at one point nudge me and said, anybody here
look interesting to you, and I was, I put it
to you and I said huh, and She's like, yeah,
me too. But yeah, that's sort of where it began.
And then we invited you guys over for dinner and
had some conversation. Again, no no playing around at this point,
(27:20):
just just conversation to.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
See if we liked each other, right, I Mean that's
the thing, like before I really have to like you
if I'm gonna fuck you, Like I have to be like, yes,
I actually want to have I mean i'd say, you know,
I guess that's not true for everybody. That's that's that's
odd to me. I I I don't anyway. But so yeah,
so we we we we started a friendship, we became friends,
(27:43):
we became friends, and then I was very graciously invited
into your relationship as a couple, right, And so that's
a that's a that's an important point as well. So
my my pre my girlfriend and I broke up and
I was in I did you know, just whatever the timing,
and I was invited to join you and your partner
(28:04):
at that time in your relationship. And I want to
make that point that, like I was very clear that
it was your relationship that I was being invited into, right,
So that's important. Again, this is like etiquette you know
for this type of thing, like you know, so that
was part of the etiquette.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
So so I.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Was invited into this relationship and we had that was
like one of the best relationships I've ever had like
it was like for the time the duration of it,
we had so much fucking fun. We we really liked
each other. We had amazing sex, yes, and we laughed
so hard. I mean my stomach would hurt after we
(28:43):
spent weeks my stomach would hurt from laughing so hard
with you all. So that was a really amazing experience.
And then y'all broke up, and then months went by,
and then you and I got together down the line,
and then since you and I have been together, we
have made a it has been a conscious choice that
we've made to be monogamous.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And so I guess this is like my climax of
this whole EPI said, is I would like this is my.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
View on polyamory versus monogamy. In my opinion, these are
both strategies to meet needs in relationship.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
That's all it is for me.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Whether we are monogamous, we're choosing to monogamous, or we're
choosing to open up the relationship or have other people
in it or go date other people, they are strategies
to meet needs in our relationship. And so if we
are attuned to and aware of and in conversation about
our needs. This is how we determine what type of
(29:44):
relationship style or relationship strategy is going to both best
meet those needs and because of what our needs are
in our current relationship, and like for me, it's been
like like, this is the long monogamous, this is the
longest relationship I've had. It's the longest romantic relationship that
(30:04):
I've had, And that container of monogamy has allowed I'll say,
both of us to go really deep into facing some
core childhood wounds that would be very easy for both
of us to avoid by going out and like you know,
avoiding them by by by cultivating connection with other people
(30:25):
to run Like in our case, I would say, this
isn't true for everybody, not so usually everybody does this,
But for me and for you, I'm.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Gonna speak for you. Maybe I should, I'll speak for me.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I'll speak for me, But for me, I will say,
it would have been a lot easier to be, like,
you know what, I'm gonna go play with somebody else
and avoid some of the ship that was coming up
in our relationship as a way of like managing you know,
some of our wounds that we really needed to like,
like really I don't even want to say confront because
that word is beyond confront. It's like we needed to
(30:58):
like like ingest them and digest them and literally alchemize that.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, completely, yeah, completely deconstruct, dismantle, reconstruct, like from a
ground level. I find it interesting that and I'm not
sure if this is the same for you. But for me,
the deeper I've gone into tontric practice, the more the
more I don't know how to put this, The deeper
(31:25):
I've gone into the tontric practice, the more drawn I
am to being simply with one person that's more than enough.
And as a matter of fact, the more I'm even
just being like taking my own space as well, right,
because that that internal work that is that is hot,
That's what that's what contra in a lot of cases
is about. At certain stages, I've had to do that.
(31:47):
I mean again, say, I would agree with you that,
you know, if we we had sort of stuck on
the let's just play, there's no way that we've gone
into the depth that we have gone to.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And that's for us. Other people may do it differently.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
But I know for me, I've I've absolutely needed that,
absolutely needed that.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
So for me, a ramp up in the contra is
a ramp down in number of partners.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Well, I love that you say that, because you know,
as we go deeper into our healing process and more
aspects of our personality, like, because we become more whole, right,
So there's more facets to who we are and how
we show up and so like we kind.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Of it's not like multiple person.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Right, and it's like we get you know, we get
to we get to to play with different pieces of
our being this right, and and for me, I have
found so much more freedom of expression in our container,
our chosen container of monogamy by again, like by really
(32:47):
alchemizing these wounds and allowing that to become part of
my wholeness as as opposed to part of my fragment,
as part of a fragmentation exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I mean to play, to playfully talk about what we
what we were just rather than playing with holes, we're
playing with wholeness.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, yes, and the multitude of facets that you know
that each of us has, right, every every human is
a jewel, and there's multiple facets of our personality, right,
and we keep we keep so many of those facets
like dimmed or dulled or confined, constrained by the boundaries
(33:24):
of what society tells us is acceptable and what are
you know, our childhood wounds have told us is acceptable.
So there's so many aspects of our of our beingness,
of our psyche that are you know, that become, that
are shadowed, right, that we that we hide out of
fear of not being loved. And when we trend, when
(33:44):
we love ourselves from the inside out, when you know,
when we heal those wounds and reclaim those pieces of ourselves,
then we get Then they get to emanate, they get
to be they get to be shared.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Like that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Like who you see in front of you today is
not who I was seventeen years ago.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
I was a shadow of my former self.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
You I mean, in the fucking ten years we've been
married or been here together.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's like we were completely dinner.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Oh my god, you could like burly speak like like
and how how we have both blossomed literally like a lodus.
How we've blossomed and and you know, radiate in a way.
Now that was impossible for us then, because we were
so overwhelmed and consumed with our own trun absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Well, to be fair, that first dinner.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Part of the reason I couldn't speak is because I
was just stunned that a woman so beautiful would join us.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
But that's anyway.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
But yeah, the growth is just there's no words for it,
Like you just you cannot. But at the same time,
people that I haven't seen in years will immediately see.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Me and like, whoa, what are you doing? What do
you wo? Wow? You look great? What are you doing? Right?
So I but yeah, it's a complete it's a complete change.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
And again, the the polyamory is is kind of a
marginal aspect of that. It didn't have to be there,
right uh, and but the willingness to deep dig deeply
into the wounds that were stopping me from full expression.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Did need to be there.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, And if if in an avenue for that is
through poly I mean I can remember that that when
when the three of us were in there was one
day that we're kind of going at it all day
and then I was like, okay, of who's ready for
the next round? And both of you were tapped out
And I felt like Superman at that point. And that, honestly,
that made a huge difference in my in my self
(35:32):
esteem and my self confidence.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
But I don't need to do that over and over
and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I don't have to why So I love that This
is this point that you just brought up, which is,
if we think of polyamory or monogamy as a strategy
to meet needs in the relationship, right or meet needs
for growth, it doesn't even have to be in the relationship.
You you were what you just described is it as
a strategy to meet needs for spiritual growth?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
And so I guess, you know, for those of us,
for those of you who came to listen to this
episode for an answer of like monogamy, non monogamy, what
should I do?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yes or no?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, I guess the answer is like what actually meets
your needs for spiritual growth? Like?
Speaker 3 (36:13):
What is your priority? What needs are you trying to
meet by these strategies?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And so, for you and I right now, monogamy is
the best relationship strategy to meet needs. Yeah, not just
for the relationship, but also for our personal and spiritual growth.
Where us in the beginning of our relationship, the polyamory was.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Meeting a whole lot of needs. It was hit it
was hitting all those needs.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Yes, a lot of needs for me that that was
so far outside of my comfort zone that it just
smashed the envelope.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah, it was kind of like necessary.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, it was literally like I mean, people talk about
with this when they use like psilocybin or something like that,
where just smashes your whole conception of reality and you
get to rebuild it. That's what that did for me, right,
That's what that that episode did for me.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And I started to think, oh, wait a.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Minute, I have all this self judgment, I have all
this other stuff that wow, how can I maintain that
and still maintain this great thing?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
And I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Like one of them had to give and the restricted
one gave. But that doesn't mean now I can return
to I can return to a monogamous, monogamous relationship which
is well inside the strictures that I had before, but
without the judgments that I had, without the constraint that
was there before, without the without the what's the word
(37:32):
I'm looking for, without feeling so.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Burdened by really my own end and society's judgment.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
And again, you're making such good points for me. You're hidden,
You're hidden my spots.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
So so what I wanted to say about that is
I think that, like one of the keys in this
conversation is monogamy and non monogamy look very different for
people who are on a committed path of spiritual realization
and are actually implementing methods that transform consciousness. Very different
(38:09):
because we're not talking about your standard monogamy like Joan
Cleaver and you know, leave a de Beaver and.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Like whatever, shock whatever, the true whatever.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Like, we're not talking about the normal fifties you know
relationship or you know, seventies relations that version of monogamy,
the toxic, toxic monogamy, that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about healthy, present, engaged intentional monogamy is a choice,
not as a reflex, not as a not as like
(38:41):
a like, oh well that's just what society has told
me I need to do. But but monogamy as an
actual active choice that you're making to meet needs for
your well being and your your personal growth. That's a
very different type of monogamy than the typical monogamy that
folks are talking about when we're having this conversation.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
Which is just like a default, fault default that's what
I'm looking for, that has like really no import to it.
It's just what you do.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, so I guess you know again, to bring this
conversation to a close finally, because I think we're past
our thirty minutes.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
At that's I hope you enjoyed the journey.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
But to bring the conversation to a close, we're I
think the word that we want to put in front
of the conversation monogamy versus non monogamy is contric are
like and and not just not not neo tontra. We're
talking about like and spiritual spiritual monogamy like, And I
don't care if your path is contra or Christianity or
(39:38):
Judaism or Islam. When you love Creator, when your life
is devoted to God and to like your life being
an offering to the Divine, that is a very different
way of living in this world than just like the
default mode. And so what I would invite you to
(39:58):
do if you're asking yourself this question and again, is
that if you're coming from a standpoint of spiritual monogamy
and spiritual non monogamy, and which relationship strategy is going
to most effectively meet your needs for personal growth, for healing,
for liberation, for fun, for pleasure. You know, and for
(40:18):
if you're in and connection with your partner, And so
for some people there is I mean, there is no
easy answer. For some people, it may look like polyamory
is the medicine that you need for your relationship, and
for other people that is absolutely not the fucking right.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
It's poison. It's poison, and same with monogamy.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Monogamy can be suffocating the way some people practice it. Right,
So it really is a question of like self attunement,
in my opinion, like attuning to what am I feeling?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
What am I needing?
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Is there anything, you know, what type of whatever relationship strategy,
experience scenario is going to most effectively meet these needs
for you know whatever they are healing, growth, connection, liberation, transformation.
And I'm also gonna say, like, you know, there's talk
of like, oh, you've got to push your edges.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Fuck that, dude, Like if you like.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
The worst, in my opinion, the worst thing that you
can do as a traumatized person is force yourself to
do fucking anything. Yeah, is to force yourself to step
outside of your comfort zone, invite yourself, coax yourself, stroke yourself,
you know, to to like melt into to like like
investigate outside your comfort zone. But like, do not push
(41:37):
yourself like that's self abuse, that's self abuse, that's self abuse.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
You don't need to hurt yourself to grow.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
Absolutely, And then just very quickly, if you're gonna look
to dissolve the ego as as Tantra does, it helps
to have some level of ego awareness to begin with,
you think kinda does, because again the polyamory could be
just a new age default, right, and that's the same
problem in a different cloak. So we need to look
(42:09):
a little bit past the surface, look a little under
the surface, get to what is it the need?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
What's the need that I'm trying to meet here? What's
the purpose? Right?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
And and if if you've sometimes those purposes are really
just vapid.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
And I want to I want to say, say, like
one more thing and then we're done, we promise. So
I'm going to say, like, in my opinion, once again,
it's really important, like in a couplehood, it's really important,
I'll say, for me to self attune to my own
needs and then like for each partner to attune.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
To their own needs so we can be honest and
not co dependent. Right, So to.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Attune to each of our individual needs and then together
as a couple. Then like, okay, so, but what are
the needs of our partnership and relationships to our ultimate
needs or I'm sorry, our individual needs. So those two
things are very important. Self attunement to your own feeling,
to your own needs and strategies to meet those, and
then attunement to your needs in partnership and then strategies
to meet those.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Yeah, and those I mean that requires a level of
communication that is out of the ordinary.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Check out authentic contra dot com. We do teach those
communication skills from time to time.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Beautiful plug, there said beautiful plug.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
All right, we're gonna wrap up this episode. It was
a long one. Thanks so much for sticking with us.
We hope you enjoyed it. It was super fun.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
And stay tuned for our next episode of Contra Talks
and go check us out to authentic contra dot com
to see our amazing programs. Yeah, anyway, I'm such a
good saleswoman. Hey there, thanks for listening to tontre Talks.
We hope you love this episode as much as we did.
(43:47):
Make sure you like and subscribe to Tontra Talks on
all your favorite listening outlets, YouTube, Spotify, Apple, so you
don't miss a single juicy episode.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
And make sure you head over to Authentic tntra dot
com and register for our free and introduction to Tibetan
five element contra. He will transform and empower your life
with authentic lineage based entra
Speaker 3 (44:06):
To legitiquate, to legitiquate, to legiti quete to the
Hey, I'm Davy Ward Ericson and thank you so much
for listening to Sex's Medicine. If you love Sex's medicine,
I want to let you know about my new podcast,
Contra Talks. We're dropping episodes every week, so for those
of you who are still thirsty for sexist medicine, we
haven't dropped a new episode since twenty twenty one. I'm
gonna invite you to head on over to Tontra Talks
so you can get your you can get your pill,
(00:23):
you can get your episodes dropped every Thursday. Make sure
you subscribe like all that good stuff so you don't
miss one juicy drop of this contra goodness. Make sure
you head on over to Tontra talksmedia dot com and
make sure you like and subscribe to get all the
notification bells tontra talksmedia dot com. Hey, welcome back to
(00:43):
Tontra Talks. I am Davey ward Ericson.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I'm Chris Ericson, and we are.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Fucking ecstatic to be answering one of your questions once
again today. Please send us your questions at connect the
Authentic tntra dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And no questions, Yeah, and we will answer the.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Moment of our upcoming episodes. You are listening to us
on our new podcasting mics for your ear orgasm, your
eargasm pleasure. We wanted to make sure that the sound
was delicious for your ear so that you can enjoy
listening to these podcasts as much as we enjoy sharing
(01:18):
them with you, as much as we enjoy talking in
your ear. We want you to enjoy. We want you
to enjoy us all up in your.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Ear drum, whispering sweet Tntra into your ear.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
In your ear hole. Okay, that's really gross and discussing anyway.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So for this episode of the Tundra Ducts, we are
going to be talking about monogamy versus non monogamy. I
guess they don't have to be in a battle, but
monogamy non monogamy in Tontra because this is again a
question that comes up a lot, and there are a
lot of misconceptions. I know, when I first started training
(01:51):
in TNTRA, there was an assumption that because I was
a Tantrica, I automatically was polyamorous and wanted to have
sex with lots of people. I don't know a whole lot
why polyamory and Tandra are tied together, honestly, but that
was a thing. And I've had my own journey of
pre TNTRA being in polyamorous relationships and post tondra being
(02:14):
in polyamorous and monogamous relationships.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So we want to give you our.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Perspective as a married, currently monogamous tontric couple who practices
authentic lineage based TNTRA under the umbrella of the shank
Picagu lineage. And we also happened to live in a
household with our root lama, with our Buddhist lama, so.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
For real, absolutely you mentioned something already that I think
is really interesting, like why is there this connection between
polyamory and in many cases not even polyamory, it's just
multiple bodies slamming together.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And tantra.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
And I think it has to do with how tantra
came to the West and how it's been quite honestly
warped and abused in that process. So I think that
that's primarily where that comes from, because I've seen that too.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I mean, there's a lot of misconceptions about this.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
You don't have to be polyamorous, you don't even actually
even have to be sexually active to do tntra.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, that's a good Okay, So let's pause there because
I want people to like breathe and digest that. So
for all y'all out there listening, when you are practicing real, authentic,
lineage based entra, doesn't matter if you're practicing with our
institute or wherever in the world you're practicing, sex is
not required for your countra practice. Sexuality can be incorporated
(03:37):
into your tauntra practice, but you can have a tontra
practice independent of sexual activity entirely.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Like look good, that's what the Buddhist monks do.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Yeah, the Dali Lama is a practitioner and he's not
sexually active exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
A lot of these folks aren't even fucking themselves.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So I mean we're talking like zero zero zero sexual activity.
So so yeah, So, so I want to to start
off this conversation by disclosing my history with this topic
of polyamory, full disclosure, just just because well just kind
of like set the tone.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
No, you know where, so you know where I'm coming from.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So I entered into the world of polyamory as a
young child, as a young woman actually probably in my
early twenties. Like I can't remember exactly how old day was.
But I was living in Hawaii, Awahu, and I was
in a relationship with a with a man and a
(04:34):
woman who were both around my my age in our
you know, early in the mid twenties. And that was,
if I'm recalling correctly, that was that was my first
like official poly I maybe I want to call it
poly We were threesome, So I don't know if you
want to call that polyamory, but we were we were
a three a three way situation, three way relationship, and
(04:55):
you know, and to be fair, before that, when I
was a stripper in in Detroit, I.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Would yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So I don't know, I can't say that I had
like three way relationships, but I certainly had I had
three way hookups, three way encounters. I mean, and and
the other thing is, you know, I'm I'm bisexual, and
so for me, it was very common to have a
boyfriend and a girlfriend, and sometimes my boyfriend and my
(05:24):
girlfriend played together. And I guess we just didn't consider
that polyamory because it was like nineteen ninety four, right,
I mean, we just didn't like that just wasn't the
terminology at that point. It was just like, hey do
you want to come over and like, you know, hang
out and let's all fuck like that.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Was just just normal. It was just normal for our lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So so then you know, fast forwarding a few years
later and it was an official I think that's when
I was first introduced to the language of polyamory. It
was with this this threatle I was a part of
right and that was lovely for the time that it was,
and it was also not lovely. I will say that
that for me, my emotional maturity was not such that
(06:08):
I could effectively navigate that type of relationship. And y'all,
I had so much severe complex post.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So for those of you who don't know me, who
only know me professionally on TV, you know, more disclosure,
like I have had for most of my life, severe
complex post traumatic stress disorder. So if you don't know
what that is and the manifestations of it, go ahead
and google it, because it's a whole rabbit hole to
fall down. You know, it's a real diagnosis, it's a
real thing. It's complex post traumatic stress disorder, which is
(06:41):
normal for people who have adverse childhood experiences and on
the adverse childhood experience test, that you can take. There's
like ten things that mean that you're probably gonna have,
you know, PTSD. I've got ten. I've got eight of them.
I've got eight of the ten. Eight of the ten
happened when I was, you know, a child. So I've
been fucked up most Luckily I'm not so fucked up anymore.
(07:06):
But anyway, so this circling back that we are going
somewhere with this.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I am going somewhere with this.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Circling back to my early adulthood experiences with polyamory. My
complex post traumatic stress disorder was so fucking severe. I
mean I couldn't have a healthy relationship with like anything,
Like I was just incapable of it. So so I
blessed the experience. It was a wonderful experience, and I
also recognized that I had way too much trauma to
(07:34):
be able to navigate that type of dynamic in.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
A way that was like healthy and sustainable.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Well, a lot of people, just on their own, like
even a monogamous relationship, have enough damage in trauma to
make like a monogamous relationship difficult.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I don't speak for myself here.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah, and so adding yet another person to that, it
just it makes it much more complex. I would like
to very quickly draw a little bit of a line
between polyamory, which is which to me, and maybe I'm
off base here, but maybe not to me, polyamory is
more like committed relationships with more than one person, whereas
(08:10):
there's also just playtime, which is the hookup right with
more than one person.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well, I like to say the way that i've I
observe quote unquote polyamory being practiced in mainstream America, and
it's changed now, I would say it's it's changed recently
because there are some very integris voices in the market,
i'll say, or in the in the industry, there are
(08:38):
some very integra's voices that are becoming louder, and I
celebrate and I applaud those voices because they are setting
a beautiful example of how to do polyamory and non
monogamy like whatever word you want to put there, but
just non monogamy. They are role modeling and setting really
beautiful examples for how to do this in a way
that's truly an integrity, ethical, responsible and like supporting the
(09:03):
love and the humanity and the connection between everybody. So
those voices, I will put some links down down below
this episode. But I'm gonna give a shout out to Melcasidy,
who's actually publishing a book, who's been a friend of
mine for a while, who I'm looking forward to their book.
And then I'm also gonna say Tyomi Morgan has been
sitting a very beautiful role modeling on how to do
(09:28):
polyamory in a way that's ethical and integris. Yeah, so
I just want to shout out those two folks because
they are role modeling in a way that.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I think is really healthy to follow.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
So anyway, yeah, well, again, the relationships with a single
person are complex because we carry our own complexities with
us and both parties do, and it takes a long
time to sort that out. Even in a one on
one monogamous relationship. With a polyamorous situation, that multiplies, and
(09:58):
so it's.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Not just like yeah, let's go.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
I mean, unless it's just a one night stand thing whatever,
which is fun, that can be very fun. But again,
it's not just something you just kind of randomly do.
You have to sort of think about it. You have
to be prepared, and it helps to have that level
of emotional maturity going into it.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I mean, that's certainly.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
What I would emphasize about this, my own history with
this is is quite limited. Its stems from a former
partner that I was with, after a couple of years
of relationship with a rather lovely woman, said I have
a secret and I've never told anybody. I'd like to
share it with you, and I was like sure. She said,
I'm bisexual. What do you think about bringing another woman
into the bed? And my initial response was a combination
(10:43):
of all hell yeah and only shit, what am I
supposed to do with this? It was like a combination
of celebration and panic all at once. It was a
very strange thing. I come from a very sort of
a strict ultra like you don't talk about sex at all.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It's very private.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
It's it's great and it's fine, but it's pride. It's
behind the closed doors and nobody talks about it ever.
And so for this to come out was, like, I mean,
it almost put me in a state of panic at first.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It was. It was really confronting.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
And my first couple of tries at it were really
clunky and awkward and they felt.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Gross, what do you mean your tries at it? Do
you mean?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Like?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
What do you mean tries, how do you like try.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Literally even even the opportunity for like a hookup, like
to get over the like panic feeling was was difficult.
I mean it was a marvelous opportunity, amazing wonderful like
in concept and in practice it was terrifying.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I mean it was, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
So, I mean because I had all kinds of I
had all kinds of performance anxiety at the time, I
had all kinds of like all kinds of like trauma
that was totally unresolved. I'm like, oh my god, what
if that comes up when I'm in the middle of this, Ah,
what do I do? And that's before I even got started, right, So,
I mean that was that that.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Was a component of this that I had never considered.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
I always just thought, you know, the port and style,
you know, they show up, but the way you go
and there everybody's good.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Uh No, it was way way, way more complex than that,
much more complex than that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
And you you make such a great point because again
the way you know, like making a distinction between threesome hookups,
that's what they're called manaja twas. It took me away,
like figure out minaja twa was making a distinction between Manajatoa.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
And what you said.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
This polyamory is like multiple relationships or loving relationships with
multiple people, you know, the one night stand MANAJATOI or
you know, just kind of playdate the way it's portrayed,
like you said, I'm born and then in movies or whatever,
it's like it's supposed to be this great thing, but
holy fucking shit, especially if it's like two women and
a guy, there's got to be so much that comes
(12:49):
up for you. It's like so much insecurity, so much
like that you're just kind of slammed in the face with.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Right, without a doubt, without a doubt, really confronting, like
surprising so for me, like enormously so to the point
where where after you know, again, I left.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
All of this up to my former partner.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
She she chose the person that she wanted to bring in,
and I was kind of like standing back a little bit.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
This is the way you're supposed to do it, quote unquote,
like at least like in the swingers community, right, because
that was also like part of the things. Well, well
we'll fill you in on like how this ties into
our relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
In just a minute, because that's pertinent.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
But yeah, that's that's like type the you know, the typical,
like the etiquette, I'll say in Hi, Benny, Bennie has
now joined the Benny Benny is our third Now we
actually have we have a polyarmius relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
With our pets.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
No, obviously it's non sexual. Obviously you guys were not
like that.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
But but our dogs.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Have have claim claim have claims upon us. And so
Benny has joined our our conversation. So if you hear
him snorting and breathing in the microphone, that's his contribution
to your listening experience. So so so anyway, I'm sorry,
go on. So in the swinger community, I'm sorry. In
the swinger community, the etiquette is that the woman chooses,
but that's not necessarily the etiquette and other like all other.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Case, no, always the case.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
And again because of my own situation, like I was
never I was never a one night stand hookup, meat
market type of a person anyway, So so for me,
it was just.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Doubling that.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
And and I never really got into the whole swinger
scene thing.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
It just didn't feel comfortable to me. It felt.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Quite the opposite, actually quite the opposite. And and again
we'll we'll I'm sure we'll cycle back, because there there
were elements about that that changed when I got into
a relationship that had a.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Bit more depth to it.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
And uh yeah, so but I want to bring this
back really quickly to the relationship between between polyamory and
contra Again, it's if somebody says, oh, you got to
be polyamorous to be they're lying, They're they're flat out
they're they're trying to get something from you. Uh, they're
trying to sell you something. And that is that it's
just not correct. It's simply not correct and to be
(15:03):
and just to be aware of that right off the bat.
So a lot of people I remember we we hosted
a we hosted a workshop, you and I and one
of the participants his wife had signed up for it,
and he approached me and said, are.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
We gonna have to get naked? Are we gonna have
to be with other partners? I'm like, no, not at all.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
So this is very I mean, it's a very real concern,
particularly for those that are like committed monogamous relationships and like, oh,
how does this play out?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right? So just again, do your homework on this.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
Recognize what's what if you're dealing with neo tantra, they
may have a very different answer to this, but certainly
in lineage based tuntra. Now, there is an element to
traditional tantra that is highly transgressive, right, It crosses the
boundaries from time to time of what's acceptable or.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Normal right by society exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
So a lot of the so again, like the wisdom
holder is an untouchable black woman in like Naguma, well.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
We believe, we can't you know, we're we don't have
we don't have verification on this exactly, but we believe
given the context.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
She was, Yeah, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
But you know there's there's you know, talk of doing
practices and graveyards and talk of doing practicism underneath you know,
solo trees out in the in the hills, which are
supposed to be places where spirits gather and you're not
supposed to go there, right, So it's there is that
element of oh, don't go there that tantra says, why not?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Right, So they to transform judgments, to transform dualism, to.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Transform the judgment of it, and to transform the strict
either or.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Of it, and so the other the other thing.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
So, and I love that you're bringing about this back
to TNTRA and polyamory because that's what we're here for.
But the other thing that comes up for me in
terms of the concept of polyamory with TNTRA is when
we look at like the roots of Contra Buddhism in
India and then the founder of.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
You know, the at least the cagulineage.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I believe pamas Ambaba, like pamas Ambaba and Yeesh Sogio
established Buddhism in Tibet through their sexual union practice and
they had multiple lovers, and so there's this concept of
when you know, in Tantra, when we've purified attachment, you
know that that there isn't that then having multiple partners,
(17:26):
you know, it gives you like an openness and like
you're not attached and all the things that go along
with monogamy or the assumptions of monogamy. It's like you know,
grasping attachment, jealousy, that sort of thing. So the concept
in like, you know, the role models, some of the
role models that we've actually had in Contra Buddhism have
actually modeled for us that you know, the non attachment
(17:48):
to to monogamy, the non attachment to that type of
relationship structure. That being said, what those folks were doing,
like actually engaging in utilizing sexual pleasure and sexual energy
as a form of worship and as a form as
(18:08):
a as a vehicle of transformation is not the way
I have witnessed polyamor being practiced in the neotontra or
sexual you know, sacred sexuality containers.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Shall we say so?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So what I have witnessed, what I have witnessed is,
like I was saying before, is polyfuckery. So they say polyamory,
but what they mean is polyfuckery, and it's really just
an excuse to have sex with multiple people without accountability
and without having to you know, address like normal relationship concerns,
(18:49):
because when you're in a monogamous relationship, you're.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Required to show up for that and you're required to
confront your blocks.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You're required if you want the relations if you want
the relationship to you have to be willing to work
through your shit. You know, there's no way that any
of us in this culture that we grow grow up
in come out of that without some type of fucking
attachment trauma, without some type of attachment wounding, and the
attachment wounding is relational wounding. Right, So there's no way
(19:18):
that we come out of the culture that we live in,
being raised in the culture that we live in without
having some scars, without having some wounds, and those wounds
are going to rear their beautiful, ugly heads in intimate relationship.
That's why we partner with people usually is because they
you know, we the deeper we go, the more intense
(19:38):
it gets in relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And so what I've.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Witnessed is folks often using polyfuckery as a way to
avoid commitment. And there's a way to avoid like having
to go into those really deep, like scary, you know,
wounded places that require us to literally transform our demons,
(20:01):
not just face them, but you need to like fucking
like literally transform.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
And befriend them, right.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And so's that's one of the things that I've witnessed.
Now again, y'all, I've been in the field since two
thousand and eight, Okay, so that's seventeen years at this point.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
I know, I have.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Tea, I know a lot about a lot of things
because I've been here in the background, like oh who me, Yeah,
I'm just here and like, you know, paying attention, watching
how it goes down.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
And so what I've seen, you know, throughout this is again,
as I said, the polyfuckery as opposed to polyamory.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
I'm just gonna keep saying that.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So and then again this expectation that if you are
a ton Trica and your sexual liberation equates to I'm
gonna say sexual expression, but the way sexual expression is expected,
the unspoken, you know, expectation, is that your sexual expression
means that you're going to want to fuck all the time,
(21:01):
anytime and with anybody, and if you don't, you're not
enlightened or realized enough. And so I actually see I
see in in Neo Tantra and sacred sexuality, the concepts
around polyamory and polyfuckery being used to gaslight people about,
(21:21):
you know, basic human emotions and.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Also their intuition.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Like y'all, you know, if you're in a relationship with
multiple people and something feels funky, maybe something fucking is funky,
Like maybe there's some shit going on under the fucking
surface that you are attuning to and it may in
other people may not even really be aware of.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
It, but you may be a tuning to something.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And then to be gaslt about your intuition and being
told that you're just being jealous, or you're being attached,
or you're not being enlightened enough, that sort of thing.
So I really see the weaponization of I see in
the realm of polyamory. I see the weapon and you
know the way it's practice. Through the years I've witnessed
(22:02):
and some currently today, I've really seen the weaponization of
you know, of of what I would call normal human
response to boundaries and potential boundary violations and then darvo
you know, deny attack, reverse victim offender.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
At a lot of psychological abuse. I personally have seen
a lot of fucking psychological psychological.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Abuse in the realm of polyamory, which is why in
the beginning of this episode I highlighted those voices for you,
because those are folks that I've known personally and I've
witnessed how they practice their polyamory. They're multiple love and
it's ethical, and it isn't like they're not fucking gaslighting
each other and their partners and shit.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
So if we think about sort of one of the
primary features of lineage based traditional sort of approaches to
tantra is that has to do with the dissolution of
the ego and what I've seen, and I haven't been
in as you know, since two thousand eight, but you've
been around it for a little bit. What I've seen
is that more often than not, this the polyamory, or
(23:06):
rather the polypuckory, is used to increase strength and cultivate
the ego rather than dissolve it, and which is completely
the opposite of what tantra is.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Intended to do.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
That point right there, Yes, wow, say that again.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, it's what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Creases, It increases and cultivates the ego. Look at how
many Look at how many notches are on my belt.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I mean that's just like playboy culture or culture. Right,
It's like and like such avoidant behavior.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Again in some cases, in many cases.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah exactly, I mean padmasa Mama or Hugh Hefner. Which
one do you want?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Right, I mean, I'll take Hugh Hefner's money.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
But I mean, so again, it's this, It's almost a
complete inversion of what the tradition is actually about. Hence
all the confusion about what trauma is or what not.
What trauma is, what is and what it does and
how it operates and and we go right back to
the meating what makes us think that we have to
be polyamorous in order to be practitioners. That's right, that's
(24:10):
that warp there.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I love that point that you made. It's almost an inversion.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
So you're right.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
So tantra is about dismantling the ego. It's about liberating
ourselves from dualistic thinking, right, wrong, good, bad, you know whatever.
Like you know, like that two things can't be true simultaneously.
That's you know, dualistic thinking that two things can't be
so so yeah, the fact that it it that it
that it that that that the way polyamory is sometimes
(24:38):
practiced in the field of sacred sexuality and neo tantra
feeds the ego as opposed to dissolves the ego, and
a limit eliminates it.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Yeah right yeah, so but and it's.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
And it's and it's bizarre how like then like the again,
this is where the gaslighting is. Like it's like, oh well,
if you have a problem or an issue with the
way your partner is practicing polyamory, oh well, you're just
in your ego. Like it's just like you know, like
how again, like you said, the warping, the warping, right, yeah,
it's really gross. So anyway, so okay, So to bring
(25:11):
us up to speed in relationship to like monogamy, non
monogamy and tontra full disclosure with doctor Ericson and I
so so, Chris and I met actually at a at
a swingers event, so we were it was not an
actual like open swingers party. It wasn't a play it
(25:31):
was it wasn't a play party, but it was a
mutual friend of ours was having a birthday party.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
And that mutual friends happened to own.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
A swinging uh network or be the founders of a
swinging network into the lifestyle in Vancouver. I don't know
if they're still operating. They are, It's like I want
to give them a plug as well. They are awesome
into the lifestyle Vancouver. Again, I don't know if they're
operating anymore because we're not Vancouver, have been for years.
But talk about like like the contrast between the space
(26:01):
that they created versus other spaces I investigated, Like it
was so there was such beauty, wholesome and I'm gonna
say sacredness. It was like they really did a fantastic
job and curating experiences.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
I mean just they curated really great experiences. So anyway,
so this.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Birthday party we met, we were both in relationships with
other people. I was in a relationship with a woman
at the time. Chris was also in a relationship with
a woman at the time. We share we share that interest.
That worked got really well for everybody. But we met
and actually my girlfriend and and you.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
My girlfriend and Chris, you know.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
We were both fish out of wat Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
you're completely in one. And I think what happened is
that I noticed how nervous she looked, and I resonated
with that because I was feeling the sort of the
same way. And we just started chatting and and that
that was really nice. And then I remember you showing
up into the conversation. I was just I was floored
by you the moment I saw you to be perfectly
(26:59):
on it, and so was my partner at the time.
She at one point nudge me and said, anybody here
look interesting to you, and I was, I put it
to you and I said huh, and She's like, yeah,
me too. But yeah, that's sort of where it began.
And then we invited you guys over for dinner and
had some conversation. Again, no no playing around at this point,
(27:20):
just just conversation to.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
See if we liked each other, right, I Mean that's
the thing, like before I really have to like you
if I'm gonna fuck you, Like I have to be like, yes,
I actually want to have I mean i'd say, you know,
I guess that's not true for everybody. That's that's that's
odd to me. I I I don't anyway. But so yeah,
so we we we we started a friendship, we became friends,
(27:43):
we became friends, and then I was very graciously invited
into your relationship as a couple, right, And so that's
a that's a that's an important point as well. So
my my pre my girlfriend and I broke up and
I was in I did you know, just whatever the timing,
and I was invited to join you and your partner
(28:04):
at that time in your relationship. And I want to
make that point that, like I was very clear that
it was your relationship that I was being invited into, right,
So that's important. Again, this is like etiquette you know
for this type of thing, like you know, so that
was part of the etiquette.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
So so I.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Was invited into this relationship and we had that was
like one of the best relationships I've ever had like
it was like for the time the duration of it,
we had so much fucking fun. We we really liked
each other. We had amazing sex, yes, and we laughed
so hard. I mean my stomach would hurt after we
(28:43):
spent weeks my stomach would hurt from laughing so hard
with you all. So that was a really amazing experience.
And then y'all broke up, and then months went by,
and then you and I got together down the line,
and then since you and I have been together, we
have made a it has been a conscious choice that
we've made to be monogamous.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And so I guess this is like my climax of
this whole EPI said, is I would like this is my.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
View on polyamory versus monogamy. In my opinion, these are
both strategies to meet needs in relationship.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
That's all it is for me.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Whether we are monogamous, we're choosing to monogamous, or we're
choosing to open up the relationship or have other people
in it or go date other people, they are strategies
to meet needs in our relationship. And so if we
are attuned to and aware of and in conversation about
our needs. This is how we determine what type of
(29:44):
relationship style or relationship strategy is going to both best
meet those needs and because of what our needs are
in our current relationship, and like for me, it's been
like like, this is the long monogamous, this is the
longest relationship I've had. It's the longest romantic relationship that
(30:04):
I've had, And that container of monogamy has allowed I'll say,
both of us to go really deep into facing some
core childhood wounds that would be very easy for both
of us to avoid by going out and like you know,
avoiding them by by by cultivating connection with other people
(30:25):
to run Like in our case, I would say, this
isn't true for everybody, not so usually everybody does this,
But for me and for you, I'm.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Gonna speak for you. Maybe I should, I'll speak for me.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I'll speak for me, But for me, I will say,
it would have been a lot easier to be, like,
you know what, I'm gonna go play with somebody else
and avoid some of the ship that was coming up
in our relationship as a way of like managing you know,
some of our wounds that we really needed to like,
like really I don't even want to say confront because
that word is beyond confront. It's like we needed to
(30:58):
like like ingest them and digest them and literally alchemize that.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, completely, yeah, completely deconstruct, dismantle, reconstruct, like from a
ground level. I find it interesting that and I'm not
sure if this is the same for you. But for me,
the deeper I've gone into tontric practice, the more the
more I don't know how to put this, The deeper
(31:25):
I've gone into the tontric practice, the more drawn I
am to being simply with one person that's more than enough.
And as a matter of fact, the more I'm even
just being like taking my own space as well, right,
because that that internal work that is that is hot,
That's what that's what contra in a lot of cases
is about. At certain stages, I've had to do that.
(31:47):
I mean again, say, I would agree with you that,
you know, if we we had sort of stuck on
the let's just play, there's no way that we've gone
into the depth that we have gone to.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And that's for us. Other people may do it differently.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
But I know for me, I've I've absolutely needed that,
absolutely needed that.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
So for me, a ramp up in the contra is
a ramp down in number of partners.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Well, I love that you say that, because you know,
as we go deeper into our healing process and more
aspects of our personality, like, because we become more whole, right,
So there's more facets to who we are and how
we show up and so like we kind.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Of it's not like multiple person.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Right, and it's like we get you know, we get
to we get to to play with different pieces of
our being this right, and and for me, I have
found so much more freedom of expression in our container,
our chosen container of monogamy by again, like by really
(32:47):
alchemizing these wounds and allowing that to become part of
my wholeness as as opposed to part of my fragment,
as part of a fragmentation exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I mean to play, to playfully talk about what we
what we were just rather than playing with holes, we're
playing with wholeness.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, yes, and the multitude of facets that you know
that each of us has, right, every every human is
a jewel, and there's multiple facets of our personality, right,
and we keep we keep so many of those facets
like dimmed or dulled or confined, constrained by the boundaries
(33:24):
of what society tells us is acceptable and what are
you know, our childhood wounds have told us is acceptable.
So there's so many aspects of our of our beingness,
of our psyche that are you know, that become, that
are shadowed, right, that we that we hide out of
fear of not being loved. And when we trend, when
(33:44):
we love ourselves from the inside out, when you know,
when we heal those wounds and reclaim those pieces of ourselves,
then we get Then they get to emanate, they get
to be they get to be shared.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Like that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Like who you see in front of you today is
not who I was seventeen years ago.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
I was a shadow of my former self.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
You I mean, in the fucking ten years we've been
married or been here together.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's like we were completely dinner.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Oh my god, you could like burly speak like like
and how how we have both blossomed literally like a lodus.
How we've blossomed and and you know, radiate in a way.
Now that was impossible for us then, because we were
so overwhelmed and consumed with our own trun absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Well, to be fair, that first dinner.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Part of the reason I couldn't speak is because I
was just stunned that a woman so beautiful would join us.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
But that's anyway.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
But yeah, the growth is just there's no words for it,
Like you just you cannot. But at the same time,
people that I haven't seen in years will immediately see.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Me and like, whoa, what are you doing? What do
you wo? Wow? You look great? What are you doing? Right?
So I but yeah, it's a complete it's a complete change.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
And again, the the polyamory is is kind of a
marginal aspect of that. It didn't have to be there,
right uh, and but the willingness to deep dig deeply
into the wounds that were stopping me from full expression.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Did need to be there.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, And if if in an avenue for that is
through poly I mean I can remember that that when
when the three of us were in there was one
day that we're kind of going at it all day
and then I was like, okay, of who's ready for
the next round? And both of you were tapped out
And I felt like Superman at that point. And that, honestly,
that made a huge difference in my in my self
(35:32):
esteem and my self confidence.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
But I don't need to do that over and over
and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I don't have to why So I love that This
is this point that you just brought up, which is,
if we think of polyamory or monogamy as a strategy
to meet needs in the relationship, right or meet needs
for growth, it doesn't even have to be in the relationship.
You you were what you just described is it as
a strategy to meet needs for spiritual growth?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
And so I guess, you know, for those of us,
for those of you who came to listen to this
episode for an answer of like monogamy, non monogamy, what
should I do?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yes or no?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, I guess the answer is like what actually meets
your needs for spiritual growth? Like?
Speaker 3 (36:13):
What is your priority? What needs are you trying to
meet by these strategies?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And so, for you and I right now, monogamy is
the best relationship strategy to meet needs. Yeah, not just
for the relationship, but also for our personal and spiritual growth.
Where us in the beginning of our relationship, the polyamory was.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Meeting a whole lot of needs. It was hit it
was hitting all those needs.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Yes, a lot of needs for me that that was
so far outside of my comfort zone that it just
smashed the envelope.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah, it was kind of like necessary.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, it was literally like I mean, people talk about
with this when they use like psilocybin or something like that,
where just smashes your whole conception of reality and you
get to rebuild it. That's what that did for me, right,
That's what that that episode did for me.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And I started to think, oh, wait a.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Minute, I have all this self judgment, I have all
this other stuff that wow, how can I maintain that
and still maintain this great thing?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
And I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Like one of them had to give and the restricted
one gave. But that doesn't mean now I can return
to I can return to a monogamous, monogamous relationship which
is well inside the strictures that I had before, but
without the judgments that I had, without the constraint that
was there before, without the without the what's the word
(37:32):
I'm looking for, without feeling so.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Burdened by really my own end and society's judgment.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
And again, you're making such good points for me. You're hidden,
You're hidden my spots.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
So so what I wanted to say about that is
I think that, like one of the keys in this
conversation is monogamy and non monogamy look very different for
people who are on a committed path of spiritual realization
and are actually implementing methods that transform consciousness. Very different
(38:09):
because we're not talking about your standard monogamy like Joan
Cleaver and you know, leave a de Beaver and.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Like whatever, shock whatever, the true whatever.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Like, we're not talking about the normal fifties you know
relationship or you know, seventies relations that version of monogamy,
the toxic, toxic monogamy, that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about healthy, present, engaged intentional monogamy is a choice,
not as a reflex, not as a not as like
(38:41):
a like, oh well that's just what society has told
me I need to do. But but monogamy as an
actual active choice that you're making to meet needs for
your well being and your your personal growth. That's a
very different type of monogamy than the typical monogamy that
folks are talking about when we're having this conversation.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
Which is just like a default, fault default that's what
I'm looking for, that has like really no import to it.
It's just what you do.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, so I guess you know again, to bring this
conversation to a close finally, because I think we're past
our thirty minutes.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
At that's I hope you enjoyed the journey.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
But to bring the conversation to a close, we're I
think the word that we want to put in front
of the conversation monogamy versus non monogamy is contric are
like and and not just not not neo tontra. We're
talking about like and spiritual spiritual monogamy like, And I
don't care if your path is contra or Christianity or
(39:38):
Judaism or Islam. When you love Creator, when your life
is devoted to God and to like your life being
an offering to the Divine, that is a very different
way of living in this world than just like the
default mode. And so what I would invite you to
(39:58):
do if you're asking yourself this question and again, is
that if you're coming from a standpoint of spiritual monogamy
and spiritual non monogamy, and which relationship strategy is going
to most effectively meet your needs for personal growth, for healing,
for liberation, for fun, for pleasure. You know, and for
(40:18):
if you're in and connection with your partner, And so
for some people there is I mean, there is no
easy answer. For some people, it may look like polyamory
is the medicine that you need for your relationship, and
for other people that is absolutely not the fucking right.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
It's poison. It's poison, and same with monogamy.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Monogamy can be suffocating the way some people practice it. Right,
So it really is a question of like self attunement,
in my opinion, like attuning to what am I feeling?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
What am I needing?
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Is there anything, you know, what type of whatever relationship strategy,
experience scenario is going to most effectively meet these needs
for you know whatever they are healing, growth, connection, liberation, transformation.
And I'm also gonna say, like, you know, there's talk
of like, oh, you've got to push your edges.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Fuck that, dude, Like if you like.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
The worst, in my opinion, the worst thing that you
can do as a traumatized person is force yourself to
do fucking anything. Yeah, is to force yourself to step
outside of your comfort zone, invite yourself, coax yourself, stroke yourself,
you know, to to like melt into to like like
investigate outside your comfort zone. But like, do not push
(41:37):
yourself like that's self abuse, that's self abuse, that's self abuse.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
You don't need to hurt yourself to grow.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
Absolutely, And then just very quickly, if you're gonna look
to dissolve the ego as as Tantra does, it helps
to have some level of ego awareness to begin with,
you think kinda does, because again the polyamory could be
just a new age default, right, and that's the same
problem in a different cloak. So we need to look
(42:09):
a little bit past the surface, look a little under
the surface, get to what is it the need?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
What's the need that I'm trying to meet here? What's
the purpose? Right?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
And and if if you've sometimes those purposes are really
just vapid.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
And I want to I want to say, say, like
one more thing and then we're done, we promise. So
I'm going to say, like, in my opinion, once again,
it's really important, like in a couplehood, it's really important,
I'll say, for me to self attune to my own
needs and then like for each partner to attune.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
To their own needs so we can be honest and
not co dependent. Right, So to.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Attune to each of our individual needs and then together
as a couple. Then like, okay, so, but what are
the needs of our partnership and relationships to our ultimate
needs or I'm sorry, our individual needs. So those two
things are very important. Self attunement to your own feeling,
to your own needs and strategies to meet those, and
then attunement to your needs in partnership and then strategies
to meet those.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Yeah, and those I mean that requires a level of
communication that is out of the ordinary.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Check out authentic contra dot com. We do teach those
communication skills from time to time.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Beautiful plug, there said beautiful plug.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
All right, we're gonna wrap up this episode. It was
a long one. Thanks so much for sticking with us.
We hope you enjoyed it. It was super fun.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
And stay tuned for our next episode of Contra Talks
and go check us out to authentic contra dot com
to see our amazing programs. Yeah, anyway, I'm such a
good saleswoman. Hey there, thanks for listening to tontre Talks.
We hope you love this episode as much as we did.
(43:47):
Make sure you like and subscribe to Tontra Talks on
all your favorite listening outlets, YouTube, Spotify, Apple, so you
don't miss a single juicy episode.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
And make sure you head over to Authentic tntra dot
com and register for our free and introduction to Tibetan
five element contra. He will transform and empower your life
with authentic lineage based entra
Speaker 3 (44:06):
To legitiquate, to legitiquate, to legiti quete to the
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