'Conscious Community' or Cult? What I learned from my journey with ISTA

This is a true story of coercion, manipulation, and abuse….

What happens when sexual healers engage in acts of sexual harm? 

Who can you turn to when an organization's leadership lacks a genuine interest in accountability?

In this episode of Sex Is Medicine, Devi speaks with ISTA survivor advocate, Cara Cordoni, to explore how "sex-positive, trauma-informed" communities can sometimes function as high-control groups that cause harm to those they claim to serve.

In this episode, Cara shares her experience of participating in several levels of ISTA training, the coercion, manipulation, and abuse she witnessed personally and vicariously, multiple survivor stories, and the results of her 2-year attempt to facilitate change within the heart of the ISTA organization.

Find out:

• How ISTA uses the promise of healing, liberation, and "conscious" sexuality to attract students and clients.

• Validated reports of sexual harm filed against ISTA from 18 countries spanning back to 2008

• The troubling patterns of manipulation, neglect of participants in distress, financial exploitation, and the misuse of "trauma-informed" language without implementing actual trauma-informed practices.

• The 2-year attempt at mediation with ISTA that ended with defending actions that many considered rape, victim blaming, denial, and positioned themselves as victims rather than addressing the documented patterns of harm from numerous survivor reports.

• How ISTA's so-called "accountability process" ultimately harmed survivors further

• Red flags to watch for before joining trainings: lack of established lineage (teachers creating content without drawing from recognized traditions), spiritual bypassing, pressure to disregard boundaries in the name of "growth," financial exploitation, unclear processes for reporting concerns, and whether criticism is welcomed or punished.

Thank you for listening to Sex Is Medicine! We appreciate YOU! :-)

Please make sure you LIKE + SUBSCRIBE to Sex Is Medicine REBOOT! And please leave us a comment... we love to hear your thoughts!

Do you have a question you want answered on air? We are delighted to answer!

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Learn more about our work at HolisticSexologyInstitute.com

Find out more about our government-accredited Holistic Sexology Certification Program.

See you next week!
With Love,
Devi and Alaina

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Davy ward Ericson and I'm Elena Salks, and
you are listening to sex is Medicine, your number one
resource for holistic sex education. Elena and I are bringing
you over twenty seven years of combined expertise in the
field of holistic sexual wellness to help you integrate your body, mind, spirit,

(00:21):
and sex.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
New episodes drop every Thursday morning, so make sure to
like and subscribe on all your favorite listening platforms, and
make sure you follow Holistic Sexology Institute on Instagram, TikTok
and YouTube for your daily dose on sex is Medicine.
Now let's get started.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Three.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hello, and welcome to sex is Medicine. I am your host,
Davy ward Ericson, and we are delighted to have you
here with us again this week for another episode of
your favorite woke sex holistic sex education podcast. Elena will
not be joining us today. She is not feeling well,
so she is having a wellness day so that she

(01:04):
can increase her health and wellness. And I am joined
here today by a very very special guest, Kara Cordoni.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Tarah a r Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
For correcting me. Kat Kara CORDONI. The pronunciation is very important.
Who is a leadership coach, cooperative developer and the survivor
advocate to discuss how sex positive trauma informed communities can
be high control groups that harm the people they claim
to serve. And I wanted to say before we dive

(01:38):
in that this topic is so important. I feel so
passionately about this topic because I am a survivor and
because I believe it is such a powerful duty for
those those of us who are in positions of leadership,

(02:02):
those of us who are presenting ourselves as healers and
teachers and guides to support people through the path of
healing and transformation. They're trauma transforming the lead of suffering
into the gold of self empowerment. It is such a
precious and sacred role that we play, and coming from

(02:27):
the position of being a survivor and healing from survival
into thrival, as I like to say, being on the
other side in many ways of that trauma and that wounding.
Those healers and those guides who have met me with clarity, empathy, compassion,

(02:52):
and integrity have been integral, integral to the process of
rep and healing. Those of us who are wounded and
fragmented from a history of trauma. It is so necessary
that the healers and the guides and the teachers that

(03:13):
we work with are holding honest, authentic and integris space
with us and not using our wounding and our vulnerability
as a tool to further manipulate us, to further harm us,
not weaponizing our vulnerability against us. So I feel so

(03:36):
passionately about this because of my own experience and also
because of the literally thousands of students that we have
had again the precious and sacred duty of holding in
a container of love and compassion and honesty and integrity.

(03:59):
And I can think think of nothing more evil, quite frankly,
than having somebody come to us who is vulnerable and
seeking healing and repair and manipulating them, abusing that vulnerability
just the same way it was abused for many of
us as children. Like it's fucking evil. It is evil.

(04:25):
And there are predators in the field of sexology that
exploit our trauma, that exploit your trauma, and that is
their intention. They literally prey upon it. And I know
that strong language, and not everyone wants to believe that
there are human predators, but I study this are there

(04:47):
are predators. There are people in our society, in our culture,
that take great pleasure in twisting the knife, in driving
that blade more deeply, and in again weaponizing your trauma
and your vulnerability against you. And I feel that those

(05:10):
of us in the field who are leaders and lead
with integrity have a sacred duty to inform you when
we know that these people are that there are folks,
that there are organizations that, although they may intend to
be trauma informed and healing organizations, are not operating as such.

(05:33):
It doesn't matter as much what people say, It matters
what we do and are organizations willing to be called
to accountability and repair harm that they know has occurred
and has occurred perpetually. One incident is one thing. We're

(05:53):
not talking about one incident today. We're talking about multiple
pattern of repeated behavior that is detrimental, harmful, exploitive and
re traumatizing for multiple people. We're not talking about one survivor.

(06:14):
We're talking about potentially hundreds, and so Kara Cordoni was
introduced to me by an email that was sent to
me about a month ago, which I don't know the
other organizations that it was sent to, but it seems
like it was sent to multiple organizations informing us of credible, tangible,

(06:40):
recorded instances of harm that have gone unrectified for years
by a specific institute in the field of sexology. And
this institute is considered to be the number one school
for neo tantra. And this is many of my listeners,

(07:03):
many of you, many of my of y'all who have
been following me, you're just maybe encountering me today or
you've been following me for years, are interested in sexology,
neotontric et cetera, et cetera. So we want to make
you aware of what is occurring in some of these
institutions that refuse to be held to account. Right, Shit's

(07:27):
gonna happen. Shit's gonna go down. We're dealing with sex.
It's like playing with fire. Right, We've had stuff in
our instance like shit is going to go down. It's
how the institute responds to reports of harm, credible reports
of harm, because we've had uncredible reports of arm as well.
How an institution reports to credible reports of harm is gold.

(07:49):
It's important for you as a student, as a person
seeking healing, to know if you are involved in the
training and there is harm that occurs, How is that
harm being addressed? Will it be addressed, and will it
be addressed sufficiently? And will the perpetrators of that harm

(08:10):
continue to be supported and allowed to operate within that
institution and perpetuate further harm. You need to know that
it's important for you to know that. So Kara was
brought to my attention by this email that it was
informing us of this pattern of harm that had been
going on, has been going on for years and continues.

(08:33):
That's the thing. It continues to go on. So Kara
was referred to me to be on the podcast to
speak to this specifically because Kara has been active in
attempting to bring reparation to these issues and mediation with
this particular institute. So I'm going to be quiet now

(08:55):
and let you take the mic. So Kara, please please
introduce yourself to us, and please let it know how
all this started, how you became involved, and what this
institution is that we are vaguely referencing.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
I was vaguely referencing in the INDRO building a little suspense. Yes, yeah,
So I'm car CORDONI I am a cooperative developer leadership coach.
As you said DEVII, thank you so much for having
me on. It's so important that we have these conversations,
and it feels try not to get into urgency, but

(09:30):
it's very important, right, It's very important. And so my
story where it's relevant here is, you know, came out
of COVID lockdown. For me, it was the end of
a pretty toxic relationship and I sought like classes on

(09:51):
sexual and emotional intimacy. Found a great class and in
the chat someone brought up and people were talking about ISTA,
the International School of Temple Arts, and it caught my attention.
I went to the site. I was like, this looks
a little crazy. It's a little little wild and edgy,

(10:12):
but look they're going to be in my neighborhood. I'm
in northern California, of course, you know San Francisco Bay
Area is an epicenter for sex positivity, all these good things.
And so I hit up my best friend, who's about
She was like sixty five when we went, and she

(10:35):
was like, let's do it, and she's monogamous married. We're like,
they say, you can be, you know, super consenting in
all things. And we spent a week at Level one,
the sexual Shamanic Spiritual Experience sss EX and I had

(10:55):
a blast. I loved it. It was seventy people, music, dancing, crying, screaming,
you know, and I just was like happily out of
my mind, if that makes sense, so like really high,

(11:18):
really empowered. I thought that was empowerment. So that's something
we should talk about, like yes, yes, yetting hypomanic or
hypermanic is not actual enlightenment or empowerment. It's an experience.
And so one of the facilitators had kind of had

(11:38):
a moment where it's like, you know, you're not meant
to be small, you know, I can see you take
take space in the center, and why don't you come
and be an assistant and carry on? And I was
so lit up and excited, and there were parts of me,

(12:00):
I will admit, I saw these three facilitators on the
couch in the circle and they're up on kind of
this throny decorated they have people and there's a hierarchy
absolutely physically represented, and I was like, these people are
saving the world by reducing sexual shame, traveling the world

(12:25):
and getting well paid and screwing whoever they want. And
I felt it. I was like I could do that.
How does one get up there? And I want to
name that really transparently, because there's a lot of us
who feel that there's a glamour, there's a hook, there's
the lifestyle, there's it's seductive. It's seductive, seductive, thank you.

(12:51):
And so I was like, oh, well, the path to
become a facilitator is you've got to do some apprenticing
or not apprenticing, sorry, assisting first for no.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Pay, right, you pay to go, so you you actually
you pay to work for them.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
You get a little bit of a discount.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Oh okay, okay, you get a discount one hundred off.
Oh but you you have to pay your own tuition.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
To your ass off.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
That is a how do I get that? Business model?

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Seems really successful for them, it really does.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
That's okay, So sorry, just like that is just not
the way we operate. So I'm like, wow, you have
to pay to work for them. That's like when I
was a stripper in Detroit and I had to pay
the bar and the DJ. Y'all wouldn't have a job
if I wasn't up here naked. You know, like why
am I paying you? But like that's the thing so
you had to pay them to work for them. That's it.

(13:53):
That that's interesting, Okay, anyway.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Go on and they say, oh, well, the assistants are
so important because you are the bearers of the culture
because we split everybody into groups, and the assistants are
pod leaders, and so you meet with your pod leader

(14:15):
every morning there your go to the pod leaders are
going and reporting back to the lead faculty usually three
or four and saying like, oh, I've got a concern
about this person or this person's great or I had
this interaction, or I'm going to be sexual with this person.
Is that okay? And so they're like you're the bears

(14:40):
of the culture. And then the other pieces, like the
assistants are like the fluffers for these temple nights where
it's like, oh, we want you to stay in the
room and we want you to embrace everybody, and you know,
and like if you have a sexual interaction, like do
it in the temple. Don't go back to your room

(15:01):
or their room, because part of what you're doing is
I don't even have work.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
But I have a question for you about like you've
referenced the sexual interactions, now, is there any conversation about
sexual health, like you know STIs, you know, using barrier
methods protections, Like is that part of the culture. So
all of that okay, So.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Like Level one, it was sold as like the sex
ed you wished you'd had in high school or as
a young adult. And we do spend some great time
talking about no practicing, doing some boundaries, touch, what kind
of touch, and this, And then they teach something called
the RBDSM conversation, which is relation, like what's your relational

(15:53):
status and what kind of relationship are you looking at
if we're going to engage, what are your boundary is?
What are your desires? And the idea right is to say,
how do we get into the best alignment? But everybody's
consenting and no one comes out harmed? You know what
kind of aftercare? So like even if it's a party,
you might be like, yeah, it's casual, but I still

(16:16):
want you to check on me tomorrow, or I want
us to have a conversation. So there's so much languaging
and the reason they are as successful as they are,
in my opinion is that a majority of people do
have a good experience in Level one, and I think

(16:38):
there's already seeds of problems that are seeded. But a
lot of people will to this day ongoing talk about
how Level one was transformative and it was awesome and
you know, and I'm not going to argue with that.
Then there's also a very large contingency of those who

(17:03):
have been harmed, and the harms range from rape, sexual assault,
to spiritual abuse, deception, profound manipulation, harassment.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
In Level one one.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
This is the bigger ista container that as you go deeper.
And so when I went back as an assistant, all
of a sudden, right, I'm not on the outside circle.
I'm a step in and I'm I you know, I
really I really believed, Like I was like, oh, I
get to be a temple keeper, and I get to

(17:48):
be in my divine feminine and I get to hold
space and just this opportunity which many of us experienced
to be like, oh, I can be a channel of
love and compassion, and you know, there's beautiful sacred ceremonies
that are very intimate. For example, in Level one, we

(18:12):
accumulate to sacred spot, which I imagine a lot of
your listeners are familiar with, like A I don't know
if you use that language.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
No, that's a very nice and so sacred G spots. Yeah,
I like I was never indoctrinated in neo tantras, so
I haven't absorbed that language. So sacred spot, I think,
is that like the G spot and the prostate on men.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, and so the really ethical teachers will tell you
it's anywhere that you decide it is for that exercise, Okay,
However it is the G spot, it is in the prostate.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay. So it's it's general, that's what you know. If
it's been referenced. It's like I vague, have a vague understanding.
That usually means the sacred spot massage is G spot
massage and people with volvas and prost massage and people
with prostates.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
So that training culminates in that experience, right, yeah, which
is very intimate experience with people that you don't you've just.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Met right out of a group of seventy and it's
randomly assigned. So in our training, so they talk about
you can consent all the time, right, And that's true,
but we're really ignoring what we know from science that
if you are in a room of seventy people and

(19:35):
they all take their clothes off, you will take your
clothes off ninety nine point nine percent of the time.
There's nothing wrong with you. It is not that you
are not empowered. It is that you are part of
a human system. Right. So, like our ideas of consent
and the ability to say no to things when you

(19:58):
are in a cathart hypomanic high state is manipulative and uncaring, right,
They're they're taking advantage of the fact that we do
these really crazy opening, psychologically stressful practices and they don't

(20:27):
like the the ethics of like actual care and relationality
are missing from their agreement field.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
So it's like false intimacy. So it's what I'm hearing
is I'm hearing. If I may recap and kind of summarize,
it's like level one. It sounds like it met a
lot of needs for you, right. You felt seen, you
felt empower, you felt like like uplifted, right, And it
was speaking to to your to your needs and your
your desire for growth and evolution, you know, spiritual growth,

(20:56):
sexual spirituality like woo, like yay. It's it's like the
missing link in our culture, right, And so that's how
you were kind of seduced into this environment. And then
in the environment. Things that you noticed were again these
these exercises that pushed their boundaries and and you know,
broke down the kind of barriers within us, which seems

(21:20):
very expansive and exciting in the moment, but also can
be used to manipulate people into doing things that they
wouldn't necessarily otherwise do and also manipulate them into letting
down their boundaries. And I guess maybe it's like the
power dynamic of trusting the environment as opposed to trusting yourself. Yeah.

(21:44):
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Speaker 3 (22:27):
Very much so, and the ideas of does it follow
the process get out of your head. It's a mystery school,
so you're constantly being surprised and an off balance, and
that's kind of baked into the design. So really taking
a step back, A four, five, six, seven, eight day

(22:47):
retreat with ISTA is a large group awareness training and
that is something that came out of California in the
sixties seventies. We had encounter groups. There was like you
get on the hot seat and everybody tells you what's
wrong with you. All of that started in that period.

(23:08):
It got popularized and just so people have a context,
what happens in a large group awareness training, as researched
by John Hunter, who's PhD and wrote the book Manufacturing Mania,
is that we experience sleep changes, food location, and a

(23:34):
lot of psychological stress. So healing is right, like there
is a place where like, yes, I need to get
to that edge, I need to look inward. And then
when that stress is intensified, and then you add all
these cathartic activities pillow pounding, pillow thrusting, screaming, crying, lots

(24:00):
of dancing, cathartic things that create our own internal chemical cocktail, right,
and when the stress is released around day four, day five.
Then our bodies, in his theory, have this dopaminergic defense mechanism,

(24:21):
which is dopamine floods us and it's we feel confident,
we feel a static, we feel empowered, we feel alive,
we feel bold, and these are all things they'll sell us, like,
look at your transformation. However, that state which is you know,

(24:42):
could be hypomanic manic, and some people actually do become
psychotic they get pushed so far by that experience. And
when we're in that super confident state, we're more likely
to spend our money, We're more likely to signed up
for the next thing, We're more likely to believe our relationship,

(25:04):
we're more likely to do dramatic and things that can
have long lasting harms. Because you're kind of manic.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
So you know, what's occurring to me as you're saying
this is is the I mean, it's it's if it
wasn't intended to manipulate it, it's it serves a beautiful
function what you're describing, because it reminds me of like
and I'm you know, vague vague sense of this, but
it reminds me of like, way way way back before

(25:35):
colonization way way back in our tribal times, how we
would probably come together as humans and you know, have
these cathartic ecstatic experiences, you know, dance around the fucking
fire like you know whatever, like like have these shamanistic
experiences like that's part of our of our human history
and that sense of tribe and belonging and inclusion and

(26:01):
being included, like being a tribe coming together and having
a mystical experience together. I mean that speaks to our DNA, right,
that speaks to our to our human history together. And
so you know, again the differences in our human history
when we did that, that was part of our shared humanity.
What you are describing is the manipulation of our human

(26:22):
tendencies for profit. And also the space holders are not
necessarily operating ethically, and that seems to be the problem
at you know, that that that you've pointed to. As
you move forward deeply into Ista and as you become

(26:43):
more aware of like what's going on behind the scenes,
it's that some of the leadership views those events as
like a predator views you know, pray so to speak,
like they get to kind of just take their pick
of whatever candy is is showing up if I don't
know if that makes sense, but.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Well, let's be explicit about that. So red flags in
when you come in to level one, we sit and
do an agreement circle, and they read the agreements and
people ask questions or they explain it, and then we
all say I'm in and we do something physical right,

(27:24):
things that we know right. And it's funny because all
of these things are they just are, and then we
can use them well or we can use them poorly.
And so I think that's really important because there's people
that come at it from like, oh it's because you
can't be sex positive, or people are like and it's

(27:45):
like no, no, no, no no, or even like cathartic activities.
It's that My imagination is when we did that as
a community, let's say it's a rite of passage for
young men or young women, is that you're there on
the other side because you're actually a community. And part
of what happens to us as we go through Ista,
we get really high and then there's nobody there. I mean,

(28:08):
now they've created an integration program where you can pay
fifty bucks a month to again all the money all
not actual care, not actual consideration. So when you're sitting
in that agreement circle, unbeknownst to me, the agreement comes up. Well,
we're different here at Ista and here facilitators can sexually

(28:31):
engage with students. And we're doing that because you know,
there's a shadow in the world that teachers and students
can't sexually engage. But we know people are breaking that
rule all the time. So here we're going to bring
it into the light. And so you want to engage
or there's a thing, then we'll make sure all three

(28:53):
facilitators think it's you know, in your best interests. So
you get the group gaze, and so they have all
this explanation, all this and it's what I've learned is
it's actually there's like those things where if you ask
an ist a person, they will almost verbate them tell
you the thing.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
If you talk, it's all very it's it's all it's
it's we're we're uplifting you by by you, You're you're
being liberated from the social constructs of the concept of boundaries, ethics,
and power dynamics. Those are constraining concepts. Boundaries and power dynamics,
those are all that constraine you. So you need to
liberate yourself and allow yourself to fuck your teacher, because

(29:36):
that's liberation.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
That's no power dynamics, because that the teacher is just
a person. That's the thing. They're like, well, the person's
just And one of the facilitators who built Ista said
to my face, well, I built a community so I
could play in it. And I get it. But when
you're a seventy year old man who built it and

(30:03):
you're bringing in twenty year old women, there's yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
And the key is that this is not like there's
a difference between a playground and a community and people
coming to you, paying you money and having a professional
relationship dynamic with you. You know, I go to my
therapist for psychological healing and my therapist sexually abuses me.

(30:33):
We all agree, we all agree that that is unethical
and harmful. And I, you know, I've been thinking about
this a lot. The reason this is allowed to proliferate
is because the field of sexology and tonture and sexual
wellness there's no checks and balances, right, It's an unregulated industry.
There's no regulation happening, there's no authority, and there's no accountability,

(30:54):
and in some ways that's that's beneficial and in other
ways it's it's extremely detrimental me because what you're saying
is like, like, I have an expectation as a professional
that there's there's ethics in how I operate when but
it sounds like the orientation of ISTA is that their
goal is to break down, you know, to to break

(31:15):
down barriers that that are healthy, but they glorified in
the name of enlightenment. Is that is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yeah? I mean Igonta would phrase it that way. Of course,
the idea is both to like take your self apart
and then also to like be like, is my mind
and my heart and my gut and my sex are
they in alignment? So I think the challenge is that

(31:43):
there's so much good languaging and great little pieces, and
the idea is to heal and free yourself and be alive.
And who doesn't want that? We all want that, but
you would have to have an agreement about what constitutes harm,

(32:05):
and that's why we're getting tikubits and so at A
one dimension is if there's no victims. So they talk
a lot about the cartment drama triangle perpetrator, victim and
rescuer and this is a model that was designed by

(32:27):
a therapist as a way to understand certain dynamics. Right,
that we can get into a pattern where we feel
that we are a victim. We want someone to rescue us,
and if that person doesn't rescue us, then we become
the perpetrator and we're mad at them, and then we're like,

(32:48):
you're bad, you're bad, and so that's a dynamic.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
However, it is not to be confused with actual victim hood,
which is, if you have been raped, you are a
victim of rape.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
But if you're just in victim consciousness, rape doesn't exist.
There is no abuser. And if there's no abuser, because
you called it in, it's your sole development. You are
here to learn a lesson and grow from this. Basically,

(33:27):
it's your fault. There's no victim, there's no abuser. And
that works great for abusers and even for people that
don't mean to be abusers. Right, there's layers here. There's
the horrible predatory narcissists. Then there's the people that get
sucked in and taught these thought forms, these lack of care.

(33:47):
It teaches narcissism because it deadens empathy, and it does
it in big and small ways. One of the agreements
is let people have their experience. If they're crying, don't
approach them. They need to reach out for help. Again,

(34:08):
we get it, people are crying. You're not there to
go shut them down. But for me to see someone
crying and then be like, oh, I'm not I feel
in my heart to go touch them, to hug them,
to check on them. But I'm violating their sovereignty because
I'm interrupting their process. So I need to stop that

(34:28):
feeling and let them suffer on their own for their
own good, right Like it's it's.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Well, it interrupts your intuition, it robs you. So again,
this is such a slippery slope because you're what you
just described is you see someone crying and your body says, hey,
go be human. But the doctrine of the organization, the
institution is, you know, ignore your intuition and trust us.

(34:57):
Don't believe your intuition because you're into it is inadequate
for this moment, and trust what we say, not what
you feel. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Absolutely, And that's and it happens again and again. And
so for example, loop back in my ADHD way to
weave all of this together to sacred Spot, and a
tray goes around with different objects, usually really natural flower,

(35:29):
a little stone. Everybody chooses one out of the receiving group, right,
and then all of the givers also choose one, so
you don't know who has You don't know who you're
going to be paired with. And we're standing in these
lines and I have my flower, and I'm super anxious

(35:52):
because I'm receiving. I had no problem giving. I was
beautiful on the receiving side. I'm like, there are people
here that I do not want to spread my legs for.
I don't want that, and so I'm in my mind going, lo, well,
how am I going to handle this? I tend to
be complicit. I know some things about me. I like
to participate. I want to get my money's worth, I

(36:14):
want to go the distance.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
All of this is.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Swirling in my mind, and one of the facilitators says, ladies,
I hope you're not worried, because I would let any
man here perform Sacred Spot on me. I'd be honored
to have any of the men here do that ritual
with me.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
So there's something wrong with you if you don't feel
the same because leadership just modeled for you that a
true leader spreads their legs. Friend, that's true leadership. Sisters
spread it. And if you if your intuition is saying,
I don't want this mofo touching me, the problem is

(37:01):
you not the fact that your body, the wisdom of
your body, is giving you a clear message that you
are being told is incorrect. That is psychological abuse.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
That is using because they'll keep getting it from both sides,
like they'll say no, no, no, of course we don't
mean that, Debbie, like what of course that's not but
it is like it is. For example, my friend who
I said came with me, older woman, monogamous, not gonna
do sacred spot got the day. She was like, I'll

(37:37):
be a spaceholder and one of the facilitators came and
is like, okay, get in line and she was like, no, no, no,
I'm not doing it, and she goes, well, you're messing
up our numbers.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
So there's quite because I'm speechless.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
There's things like this that they don't you know, they
don't clock right, like it's it's just going on. So
at level two, super into it really probably over extending
myself between getting hypomanic and also being in a leader space,
and also with hypomania can come hyper sexuality, which I

(38:19):
don't know if you talk about that, but this place
where it's like, yes, I want to be sexually free,
but I also want to be within my boundaries, my body,
my intimacy, and that gets really confusing. Day four, Day five, right,
and so it's you know, people have asked me, well,

(38:41):
were you sexually assaulted, like you've led this movement, You're like,
were you actually sexually assaulted at Ista? And my answer
is no, But because I did not have informed consent,
that's huge. It was not consensual.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Yeah, yep, that's huge, And that's a nuance. Yep.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
It is a nuance, but it is one that affects
many of us who come out being very confused about
what just happened to us. And women who are coming
out did not get sexually assaulted but went into a
psychotic state had to be picked up by their parents

(39:28):
and taken to a psychiatric hospital. This is not the
only person And even talking to a former facilitator, she
was like, I saw people become psychotic, and I saw
there was no one in the room that knew how
to help them, and in one case she was like,
I talked to the lead facilitator about a person that

(39:50):
shouldn't be driving. I was really worried about them because
they were not in a good place. Still, I was like, oh, yeah,
I'll take care of it, and then never followed up. Never,
like they don't care.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
So so I mean, I'm hearing again summarize, so hearing
like level one sounds amazing. It sounds like the party
of a lifetime, right, and it sounds it sounds amazing.
So again it's like, it's it's it's not that the
services that they provide and the rituals that they do,
it's not like there's inherently anything bad with them, Like
you're describing really beautiful, lovely rituals that that's the that's

(40:27):
on one level, But on another level, what I'm hearing
is grooming. If I were to give it a word,
I'm hearing these subtle ways of conditioning. And that's the
thing about psychological abuse that most folks don't understand. It
is not overt, it's subtle. Particularly we're talking about cult

(40:49):
dynamics and group dynamics. It's part of the culture and
it preys upon our needs for community, our needs for tribe,
our needs for access dance, and also, like you were
describing earlier, how like if there's a room of seventy
people getting naked, you're probably going to get naked too,
because that's just the way that human humans are wired.

(41:10):
We're going to follow the group, you know, because that's
part of our our hardwiring. It's nothing to be ashamed of.
It's part of our hardwiring. Right. So on one level
with these is the experiences. It's beautiful, like it sounds beautiful,
like it's meeting a lot of needs, but it's it's
why you're here today is to talk about what's subversive,

(41:32):
what's hidden, what's unseen below this surface, and what's unseen
below this surface is it sounds like a lot of
abdicating of responsibility, a lot of again using using you know,
half truths. I think, you know, like like partial truths

(41:52):
like oh, you know, let everyone have their experience. Well, yeah,
like I get that as a leader, Like I can't
you know, somebody was crying because I didn't get a
massage in the retreat and I'm like I can't help
you with that, Like feel your feels right, that's like
just what it is. Right, So there's a level of
let folks have their experience, and then there's also a
level of like when harm occurs. Period, When harm occurs,

(42:17):
how do you react in that moment as an institution
to address the harm and support the victim and also
bring accountability to the perpetrator. That to me is where rock.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
Meets bone and it's not going to happen because the
worldview is you as an attendee, take one hundred percent responsibility.
The world view as a woman, yes, an insta yes, right.
The one of the agreements is because you brought up right,
there's a lack of responsibility. And I'm going to say
absolutely because there is putting all the responsibility onto the

(42:59):
part anticipant. Right, you're responsible for your experience, You're responsible
for your consent, your sovereign. This idea like we're sovereign
and I get it, and I came there to be
and find my sovereignty. But did I come there like
with their language of so they you know? And then
if you get raped, you're one hundred percent responsible. How

(43:23):
did you get in that situation? What was your frequency?
What is it? The the you know you've been sent
here to learn to integrate and that's their worldview, and
that's Charles Muir at Source TNTRA And a lot of
this comes from O show raj Niche was a huge
proponent of this rape doesn't exist and in the really

(43:47):
scary gross depths, they're like, yeah, you need to take
responsibility that you wanted to be raped when you were
six by your uncle.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Okay, I need to pause there for a moment. I'm like,
I like, I want to cry, like I feel I
feel defeated and I feel crushed that this is the
most you know whatever significant school for Neo Tantra in
the world, and you've also named off other significant schools

(44:18):
for Neo Tantra and their worldview is that if our
frequency is low, then we then we are responsible for
the abuse that we receive and as a child, you know,
and and I get like that's the thing, like I too,
Like when I was disassociated because of my draupa, I

(44:38):
was like like, there that worldview is not is not negated,
and yet it's not completely untrue. And yet on the
other hand, it's like as like, we do not deserve
the harm we experience, and yes, there may be karma
and yes, there may be all these other factors, and

(45:00):
part of the healing is the accountability and the recognition
and the protection of the most vulnerable. I think that's
the thing I'm really responding to is like healthy. My
understanding of healthy societies is that they protect the most vulnerable,
they protect life, they protect the most vulnerable. And this

(45:20):
is like some psychological, abusive distortion of that concept.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Right, And it's like I had I had this male
facilitator like yeah, literally literally say that, Like, just we're
not going to walk in the room and be concerned
about who's most likely to get harmed. We don't hold
a worldview about privilege you want to talk about I'm
a tall, white, handsome man with money. I don't live

(45:48):
in that worldview.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
So I mean, it's like a bunch of narcissists that
want that don't want to like, don't want accountability, that's
the thing. Like, that's like you can't do anything with that.
There's no like so you know that if you go
to an ISTA event and you experience harm, that is
your fault. Like I just want you to know as
a listener, right, And we're I want to you know,
with our with our time because we can take as
much both our time. I do want to talk about

(46:12):
some of the victims stories because that was you know
that that's profoundly impactful, and you are a leader in
helping lead the way of trying to bring reparation to
these these stories. But for our audience, we you know,
what Kara is laying Kara is laying out for us
is that if you go to an ISTA event and
you experience harm or violation, it's your fault and it's

(46:33):
your responsibility to deal with the aftermath of that, and
there will be no empathy. There will be no sympathy,
there will be no compassion. You are responsible for your experience, right,
So if you you know, like just buyer beware, buyer beware,
Like I think it's really important for us to all
be informed, like eyes wide open. I know, if I
go to an ISTA event and somebody you know, does

(46:54):
something to me that that is not that that crosses
my boundaries, that's my fault. Okay. So as all this
were clear about, I just need to know. I just
need to know.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
And that just came up. So I went to ISTA,
some weird shit happened where I did the Sacred Spot demonstration,
so right. I modeled it with one of the facilitators,
super intimate, and of course I was like, very spiritually focused,
like how can I be a channel and do this

(47:25):
for good for everyone? And there was no aftercare and
I asked I followed up, hey, I need some aftercare
and I was blown off. And at the end of
the whole retreat there's a let's get together and have
a feedback session and I'd never been in there, but
they were like, yeah, you have four minutes because we

(47:47):
know we want to clean up and get out of here.
Four minutes something you learned. If you want feedback things,
you have feedback for us. And I started sweating and
I'm like, am I sovereign? Am I brave enough to
tell the truth? And I was like, well, let's find out.
And how much how much of a level of feedback

(48:07):
do you want? They ask, if you're feeling tender, you know,
you might want a one or two, but if you're
feeling strong, we could give you a ten. And so
I'm an asshole and I'm like, sure, I want a ten. Yeah,
And I said, here's what I observed. A bunch of
you were on your phones during Sacred Spot. Really broke

(48:29):
my heart because it's so intimate and tender and beautiful
and sacred, and it's like they are just numbed out
and they don't really care. I said, I did say
sacred spot, and then you never followed up and didn't
provide any care, and I had something else, and the
room goes silent, and the facilitator turns and says, I

(48:50):
call bullshit. Do you see how your victim attitude is
making us abusive or making you know, make us the perpetrator.
But really it's because you have a victim attitude running
your life, and you should go home and see how
that's impacting you, because that's probably blocking your success. And also,

(49:11):
weren't you the temple priestess? That last altar was ugly
and I felt it right in, like literally like an arrow.
And then because I'm a survivor and all of my conditioning,
I was like, I can take a punch, thank you,

(49:32):
Oh my god, I fond and then we don't have
time for that. We need to move on to the
next person. And so I left with that kind of distortion,
and then I signed up for level two. And level
one is like inner personal personal level, and level two

(49:56):
is more spiritual. It's trans personal and archetype, and it's
way they're supposedly not teaching it right now. I don't
know if that's true, but this is where Ista was
started by a guy Des Nichols, and it was more

(50:16):
like the sex addict kind of attitude of like I
just want to put it in everybody once. It's all love,
it's all good, you know, share that good energy, like
it's beautiful. I don't see why anyone has a problem
that I want to put it in everybody once. That
then attracted the more malignant, nasty narcissist Bruce Lyon, who

(50:41):
has Heiden Temple and Ista and Heiden will act like
they're separate and they are fighting in ways, but it's
all the same people. And Heiden is where the spiritual
abuse really gets cranked up and the grooming and the

(51:02):
uh yeah grooming increases. For example, in many of the
Level two's we do a call and response song playing
the guitar whatever. Everybody's singing together, and and this is
early in the retreat, and the verse comes up, spread
your legs like a temple whore, grab your dick and

(51:25):
open that door. She'll fuck you and suck you and
be ready for more while the void is pounding at
your core.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
And those are lyrics. That's poetry, folks, that's the that's
the poetry. And and I get like, I can see
that's the thing. I can I can see a room
full of you know, folks a row. This is so edgy.
We're just it's all funny games. It's all funny games.
But it's grooming. Right. If that's all it was, that
would be one thing. But that's not all it was.

(51:57):
It's it's symptomatic. Well, you're pointing out because you've been
through the system. What you're pointing out is all these
little again nuanced micro micro moments in which the group,
the implant is being seated, right, and the and the
worldview is being seated, and then when you challenge that worldview,

(52:17):
you're the one in the wrong. It's exactly the same
thing that you know, the episode that I did about
Nicole Day don't in one taste, it's it's the exact
same language. You know, she went up on the stage
and said that she doesn't if if you're if you're
turned on enough, if you're if your pussy's turned on enough,
you can't there's no such thing as rape and stop
being such a victim and that you know, and the
survivors that were that took the stand for her, they

(52:39):
were all in their victimhood. So so that's like, that's
the I'm gonna like give y'all. It's the same, so
y'all red flag. If someone's saying you're really you know,
you're really rooted in your victimhood, you it's usually because
they're trying to manipulate you. I can't. I can't think
of one time I've ever said that to a student
of mine, even when they've even when they've come up
me with some ship, I'm not like, oh, you're in

(53:00):
your victimhood. When when I had a student say hey,
they had a boundary that was crossed, and luckily it
wasn't even a physical sexual boundary. It was an emotional boundary,
and they were like, that boundary was crossed by your
faculty member. I was like, oh, fuck, no, that doesn't
happen in my school, Like like I'm not like a
relational emotional boundary, like that's not acceptable, right, and so

(53:24):
so so that grooming grooming, yeah, and so.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
There's so much we could go into there, but I
want to move forward, came out of level two, still
very disregulated, very high, signed up to be an assistant again,
and then a Facebook boast popped up and it was
the facilitator who darvoed me right, which is defend attack

(53:53):
and reverse victim. Yep, so she right, so darvo. So
I didn't know even that word right or that acronym
she posted and she made reference like oh, I know
people are upset, and they started this Facebook group and
I was like, oh, let's go check it out because
maybe I can be a helper and find out and

(54:15):
make it better.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Right.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
So many of us come and people are like why Kara,
and I'm like, we're idealists, were hard workers, Like this
is people that get sucked into cults. This is not
my first cultic experience, it's not my first abusive relationship,
and so as I've actually been healing this time, understanding

(54:38):
there's these very pro social qualities that many of us
who get into these cults have, and so I was like,
I'll go and I can be a bridge and I'll
learn about it. So I drop into this Facebook group
very early. It ended up being six hundred people, but
it kind of collapsed because of controversy very early, really

(55:01):
ten years old. Ten reports that had been ten years
that people had been trying to get resolved.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
With ISTA report abuse with that were ten years old.
So here we are twenty twenty five. So that's as
twenty fifteen and.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Earlier, earlier, even earlier, And all of a sudden, I realized,
Holy Molly, I am the new kid on the block.
I have no idea what's going on actually, And so
I start reading all these accounts and then I was like, well,
maybe this thing that happened was kind of not my fault.

(55:37):
And I posted and some people were like, yeah, that's
Darvo honey, Like that's and for me, psychological abuse, And
I triggered CPTSD for me, and I dropped out of
the coaching school I was in, which is okay because
it was also kind of culty. And I eventually was

(56:03):
invited to join a small group that were attempting to
like take all of this and go to ISTA and say, Okay,
we're going to try to not be cancel culture. Right,
We've got all this Oh my god, people are cancel
culture and we're like, what about calling in culture? We
have all this information. We put up a form and

(56:24):
we invited people to send us their reports, and we
took those reports fifty and Crunch Data analyzed created a
report that showed that the most common issue was coercion
with ISA, boundary pushing with ISTA. This was the most
common in these reports. And there are I have talked

(56:47):
since we got those reports three years ago. So many
women have said, oh, I didn't even send in a report.
We didn't trust you. We didn't you know, like why
because we're talking about talking to ISTA, and they're like,
I got raped there five years ago. Like y'all new
kids on the block are trying to do a thing.
I'm gonna sit on the sidelines and see what happens. Right,

(57:10):
So we got legal threats for MISTA. Then we convince
them basically to hire a mediator. We report all these
huge amount of like consulting work, basically saying here's things
you need to address. Where's your code of ethics, where's
your code of conduct? They still don't have them. They

(57:32):
still don't have that.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Okay, so pause if this still does not have a
code of conduct or code of ethics or a code
of conduct for their for their faculty, Okay, So that's
I mean that's yes, that's that's again red flag. Does
your institution have a basic code, basic code of ethics?
It's not that hard. But again, their worldview is such

(57:53):
that harm doesn't exist when you're floating in the ethers
and your top of on, you're the top with the
food chain, harm doesn't exist.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
It's an illusion, right, it's misunderstanding.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
It's a misunderstanding. Don't take it so seriously.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
Righting, And long story short, we sat down with four
of their council leadership and a couple you know been
there many many years, helped to build the organization beautiful facilitator,
mediator and long story short, what we thought would be

(58:31):
three months ended up being a year of one on
face to face. We did thirty hours of mediation as
a group, not including the behind the scenes, the trying
to educate. And the idea was in calling in you
want to have a genuine relationship. You can't sit at
the table and scream at someone and expect them to
learn or grow. So the idea is like, how do

(58:54):
we show up with respect and engage in a respectful process.
And that was really hard for me because I was CPTSD.
I was full of rage and hurt my own for
all these people. I was trying to, you know, keep
it together. And after a year we just went into

(59:21):
like a mediated chat kind of not mediated, just chat
communication through WhatsApp. And then in February of this year,
the New York magazine article in the Cut came out

(59:41):
and that was a almost two year at least a
year investigation by Anya Kamen. It's a journalist and she
had come to the project being really excited to say,
here's an organization that's been called to accountability and we
get to tell the story. Worry about a place turning
itself around. I mean that's I was like, this could

(01:00:03):
be an amazing model leader, right, like, oh my god, right,
I know, the idealist and yeah, and she found out
what we all found out because it's a shit show.
And she had a rape survivor come forward who was

(01:00:27):
raped in a ritual in level two. And it still
will still tell you like, well, you know, we can't
stop her from using the word rape, but it was
within the consent of what she said at the time,
so she didn't say, don't penetrate me, so therefore it
wasn't against her consent because she didn't say don't do it,

(01:00:51):
which was part of the setup for the ritual.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
So darvo once again, Darvo once again. And so I
want to let our audience know that under this video
and on our blog at Holistic Sexology Institute dot com
for this episode, I will absolutely include the link to
that article. There's another article that base Gothfield, Oh B.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
Scofield. B.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Scofield, Yeah, wrote as well. And I think the article
in the New Yorker is the one that included the
animal sacrifice if I'm remember is that the one?

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Okay, So any articles that we have, like I have
access to, will include those links and the blog beneath
this episode, So just want to let you know that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:35):
Yeah, and three SC dot community we'll put that's where
we documented the journey, so you can see all of
our letters to the community, you can see our updates
about mediation, and then you can see that it has failed.
Is where I have landed and we have landed with that.

(01:01:58):
So the New York magazine are came out and it
was devastating. What was more devastating was Justa's response to it,
which was, as I just said, you know, we don't
agree that that's rape and blah blah blah, and then
they corrected things in the article. They were so random

(01:02:19):
and unimportant and diversion. It was totally like we're going
to nitpick this, and and that broke the remaining connections
in the mediation team such that they were and got darvoed.
I reached out and I said, if you guys have changed,

(01:02:40):
this letter is horrible. You can do much better. And
I was told you don't have consent to talk to
me in that tone. So now that what's really scary.
So people activists had said to me and the group,
they're going to use what you're doing to whitewash themselves,
and I was like, oh, I'm feeling like my story

(01:03:04):
is we'll do this and if it fails, we have
more power than ever to call them out because it failed.
So now they are there's legal threats that have come
forward in which they are threatening someone and they're saying, well,
we did this process and see so they're inaccurate and
we're not harmful. And these people said we're okay. Well

(01:03:26):
we didn't say they're okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
It's just as the communications broke down, because it's really
like I'm just thinking of again, I feel overwhelmed time. Sorry,
I just feel overwhelmed because because it seems as though
that world view in terms of we are flawless and

(01:03:50):
we bear no responsibility, is so deeply entrenched, right, and
you can only have repair with folks that are in repair.
And that's just what I'm hearing in this dynamic of like,
you know, yay the starry eyed, then let's turn this
organization around. But this organization is not interested in or

(01:04:12):
invested in. I keep using the word accountability, but I'm
just gonna say repair and compassion and kindness for people
who are again legitimately have been harmed and coerced. But
that sounds like again the whole cultural dynamicsactly you can't
get Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
I mean, I look at the letter that we wrote,
which is like a a summary of the harms, but
then we wrote like thirty pages of like here's things
you would do that are baseline, here's things in retrospect.
I'm like we were in the weeds. We didn't get
at the ground. The ground is their cult. These are

(01:04:56):
cultic systems, with cultic thinking, with cultic harms. It is
a cult. This is how people in a cult behave.
When I reached out to so many people when I
got in the Facebook group and I was like, no,
I reached out to people. I went to level one with.

(01:05:16):
I reached out to people I went to level two with,
and I'll will tell you what I found. The healthy
people they were like, that was weird. I got I'm done.
It was an experience. It was summer camp. And one
of the gals was like, y'all are funny. It's like
you went to summer camp and now you're like, my
life has changed. We're going to be best friends. And
she's like, it's an experience. That's my train of thought there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
But you were outraged, and yes, I was outraged, and
I reached out.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
I tried.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
I tried.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
And everyone was like, well, I'm sure they called that
on themselves. Oh, I'm sure they just need to process
their experience. Oh. I get that you're disregulated right now.
Oh I have heard of some of the harms. But
really that's people who weren't able to integrate. And I
mean just over and over and then no one checked

(01:06:10):
on me. And that's what one guy said about like
you said about ritual and things, if you come out
of that ritual in two days, have gone by and
no one's seeing you. Someone going to come check on you.
They'd be like, what happened? Where'd you go? Have you eaten?
No one's coming for you after ista because it's not relational,

(01:06:33):
it's not based in care. And this is from an
organizer who came out after many years and has now
having processing what was going on. And one of the
things he's really synthesized is out of all those agreements
or whatever values we imagine are there, there is not
a value of relationality, and there is not a value

(01:06:56):
of care.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
It's so but and so and so that's okay. So
that's the thing that's there's not a value of relationality
and there's not a value of care. But they're selling
it as trauma informed. That trauma informed includes care. Ha ha,
Trauma informed includes some modicum of care and even if

(01:07:19):
like we can't support you, please go talk to the
mental health professionals down the road, like this is beyond
our capacity. Here's someone to call, right, So, like, trauma
informed includes a level of care. So that's the thing
that's that's part of the twist and why I wanted
to call this out and do this episode because if
people are selling you medicine, and they're selling you healing

(01:07:45):
like and you are going to them for that. You
need to be aware that that is not the core intention.
That's just marketing. It's just marketing, So be aware, buyer beware. Right,
if you want true tru healing and you want true medicine,
maybe go to an institution that has not had multiple

(01:08:08):
articles calling them out for abuse.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
You could just go to their website and click on
ISTA response under media and then click show all and
there's a list of like eight responses. Financial issue response,
animal ritual sacrifice response being called a cult response, I mean, oh,

(01:08:34):
and about the event they were going to hold it
Auschwitz a response. So they're they're trying to handle all
of this and they need to because it's coming at
them and coming at them dropped.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
Yeah, yeah, the mask is dropping.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
And so a woman who I spoke with this weekend,
as I said, people are still like coming forward because
they don't realize or they haven't. So she went to
an ISTA retreat. It was her second I think maybe
her third. There was an assistant there who is also
part of Heiden Temple. And this is a pattern because

(01:09:17):
I want people to understand that ISTA is the funnel
for Heiden. So when you go to ISTA, there are
people there who are promoting grooming for ISTA is seven
or eight days. Heiden Temple training is six weeks on site.

(01:09:39):
It's a feeder. This woman was had conversations with this assistant.
They did the RBDSM conversation on the last night of
the training. She said, no sex, no penetration. He raped her.
He penetrated her and then and he harassed her for

(01:10:02):
three months, including that he could see the entities that
were around her and on her, and that he could
help her with the entities that were interfering with her life,
and that she should be really scared about all the
things that he could do that he saw, and that

(01:10:23):
he was the only way anyway. It was major spiritual
psychological abuse that went on for three months on.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
Top of shert.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
And so she went through the accountability system that ISTA developed.
They'd started it before we did the activism, but then
it's supposed to have been informed by our shit. She
went through their accountability system and she was further traumatized.
She basically met with one of the lead facilitators who

(01:10:57):
helped build this whole organization and that person would not
use the word rape, would not bring that back to
the rapist. Another gal just published a piece and people
are going to see this because it is coming up.
Lots of people are speaking, there's blogs, there's people are
starting to spill the tea. And this gal also was

(01:11:20):
raped by a leader at his at Heiden. And then
she describes all of the piling on. You knew what
was going to happen, You really wanted it. It's your
soul work. Why can't you take responsibility? And she said
it became sadistic, Like it was so clearly sadistic. And

(01:11:46):
so I want people to really know, stay away from Ista,
stay away from Heiden unless you understand that it's like
skydiving with someone that didn't know how to fucking pack
your parachute.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Thank you, Kara, Thank you for being vocal and being
a target in this right, putting yourself out and in
front and leading the charge. And thank you to all
of Thank you for all of the labor you and
your colleagues have invested in trying to right or wrong

(01:12:24):
and create safe space in this industry. It feels like
an uphill battle because I truly believe that this industry
is rife with predators right, truly, truly, and it has
been shocking to me through the years to see other

(01:12:44):
people in positions of leadership not share that passion for
ethics and integrity and prevention of harm and protection of
the most vulnerable, particularly when using words like healing trauma
and trauma informed. If you're going to use the words
healing trauma and trauma and trauma informed, you better put

(01:13:05):
your money where your mouth is. And Darboux gas lighting
and denial of people's experiences, particularly when we're talking about
a sexual violations and psychological coercion, that it's just not okay,
it's not okay. And again the repeated, repeated, repeated, repeated,
repeated instances demonstrate what you what you stated. It's a cult.

(01:13:30):
It's a sex cult, is what it appears to be.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
It is. And now the leadership has said they've mastered
sex and so now they're going to become leaders in
power because they've been through this amazing transformation that all
of this has coudipulted them into being recognized leaders in power.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
What does that mean? Leaders? What does that mean? Leaders
in power?

Speaker 3 (01:13:55):
Accountability? Whatever they think? They turned the ship around and
now they can lead others linked to Tamera, linked to like,
you know, kind of the neo Tantra community building web
around the world, and so they're, yeah, I don't know this.

(01:14:17):
A bunch of the leaders have been saying it's unclear
what it means. It's just terrifying, that's all. And the
arrogance and the lack of humility. And I would say,
you know, lots of people are having to go through
accountability ourselves in different ways. There might be sexual aspects.
I talked to a lot of men in their fifties
and they're like, when I was nineteen, the way we

(01:14:39):
got laid it wasn't okay. But I didn't know it
wasn't okay. Even a leader coming out of this cult,
he's like, oh shit, I didn't recognize that. Of course
people are projecting their power, and of course I was
a daddy figure, and of course he's like, I bought
it and it benefited me, and I am sorry. And

(01:15:02):
I will sit with anybody one on one or in mediation,
what do you need? What do you want? I am
here for it, and I am humbled, and I will
continue to be humbled. It is an ongoing experience, and
you will recognize accountability when you have people truly able

(01:15:25):
to articulate their self awareness, self reflection, so they can
talk about the land they are leaving. If you don't
know where, you can't leave a place you haven't been.
So if you're like, well, I was never an abuser,
how can you get out of being an abuser? And
these cult leaders are out there, Oh, I'm accountable. Oh
and it's all real, slick and slippery. Oh. I made

(01:15:47):
some mistakes. I brought some bad people in, oh way,
but not about Wow. I had conditioning in my mind
that women were objects, Like I literally was not able
to see women's humanity because of the conditioning. And therefore that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
Kind of insight soul searching some like some actual soul searching,
some actual like humility and self awareness. Yeah, and that's
the thing. It's like, the harm is one thing. And
as I said before, like you know, in the field
of sexology, it's like play them with fire, a harm
will occur. But is there even an openness to accountability? Right?

(01:16:29):
And that to me is the difference. It's like, is
there a process, potential interest, desire, investment in repair, in
accountability and repair? And that is how we transform harm
is through accountability and repair. Otherwise the harm just continues.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
And that would have been the transformation. Right. They're selling transformation,
large group awareness training sell transformation and John Hunter's like,
what is that? You can't sell that, like that's anything actually,
like unless it's like come with me for a six
months or a year or right like these shortcuts. Yeah, yeah,

(01:17:11):
And I'm like, if they were honest and they were like,
it's kind of like a real emotionally and sexually edgy
skydiving with potentially a faulty thing, people will still sign up.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Yeah, a lot less though, Yeah, well yeah, and again
the thing for me is if you're selling it as
healing trauma and trauma and form, you're going to attract
people who are actually seeking healing from trauma and trauma
inform spaces to provide a level of care that Ista
simply does not, from what you're telling me, is not

(01:17:44):
interested in providing that level.

Speaker 3 (01:17:45):
Well, now they would say we would screen you out,
so we are trauma informed, but we are we would
not advise you to come if you know you're a
traumatized person. We are not stewards of trauma. We are informed.
Whatever they think that means, but they are trying to
screen people out. So if you knew you had bipolar,

(01:18:06):
if you had childhood sex abuse, they would try to
not have you come at this point, would.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Because I know Jesus, thank you, hallelujahs. That's that's all
that came out of it. Thank you, Jesus. Stop, please stay,
go find another provider, please do There's a lot of
ethical providers in this field. There are many ethical providers
in this field. Yes, yeah, yeah, wow.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
Yeah, So I have a summary if they have three minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:18:39):
Yes, let's do it. Let's do it, let's do it. Yes,
I want to hear your beauty all right.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
Yeah, this one I actually wrote back in twenty two
so as I was really processing and it kind of
came through, and then I put it aside, and then
I wrote a final verse for it just this week.
I'm an optimist by nature, but I don't know what

(01:19:06):
to do with the narcissist feeding off of me. And
you can he change, well, that'd be something new. It's
unlikely because his defenses that undo exposed to the light
dissolving in the sun. All the misdirection finally undone, and

(01:19:27):
those that came with willing hearts and good intentions. See
it added nothing to their light. It's on their light.
They feed, teaching narcissism, death of empathy, crying and screaming,
encouraged to get free in doctrination, paid for by the guest.

(01:19:49):
What's implanted ain't for their best safe container. Quite the
opposite is true, true believers. They can't see what they do.
There's no a abuse, her and victims, just an act.
Her soul wanted it, even if her body did not.
Say she's empowered. As long as she's on her knees.

(01:20:10):
She's so thankful, been trained to please eyes like spirals.
Where has she gone? It seems the teacher stole her
soul song. Nothing wrong here. She's twenty four, she's sovereign.
Can't ask for more responsibility. It lays with us. Each

(01:20:31):
get harmed. It's your fault, is what they teach. Personality disorder.
They're here to spread just happens best when they get
you in bed. It's not essential. Once they're in your head.
You sought healing and get harmed instead. We saw the
entities move in the temple at night, thought they were

(01:20:54):
human till they vanished out of sight, collecting all the
trauma and all the arrows too, but we couldn't see
what they were feeding it to. I'm an optimist by nature,
but I don't know what to do with the narcissists.
We're feeding off of me and you can they change, Well,
that'd be something new. It's unlikely because they're defenses that undo.

(01:21:18):
Now the bonds are broken and we help each other free.
We see with painful clarity how they take and deceive.
So spread the word. Dear sister, please tell your brothers,
good mister, may we starve them of new souls until
their doors they have to close.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
That's profound, poignant and on point, on point. Yeah, yeah,
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah. It's
again how I feel is overwhelmed at the enormity. I

(01:22:08):
feel like so sad, like I want to cry, you know,
for the unwillingness to heal, the unwillingness to be decent
fucking humans, right, and the.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):
Really beautiful people who get sucked in. If I had
gotten sucked in, if I had the opportunity, Like really,
some of the most wonderful people join cults, they really do,
and then they leave them. That's my call for the
brothers and sisters who are still in Ista and think
they can fix it or change it have been ignoring

(01:22:47):
the red flags. You can leave, you can leave the cult.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for your courage, your bravery, bravery.
You're in labor, they are ongoing labor, and this opportunity
to share this very important message with our audience. Yeah
all right, all right everyone, thank you for joining us.
I can't leave on a more cheerful note. Please, you know, absorb,

(01:23:14):
integrate everything we share. This was heavy, This was heavy
for me, heavy and deep, and again we wanted to
We want to share this because we want you to
be informed in these spaces. And if, knowing what you know,
you choose to go into those spaces. Okay, may you
have you know, God's protection with you, right And if
you are like we Kara and I are, and you're

(01:23:36):
a survivor truly looking for healing, we want to invite
you to maybe look elsewhere, maybe look elsewhere for true healing.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
And I think what I learned just as a final cap,
like a lot of us who are survivors, we seek cathartic, big,
exciting things, and so know that about yourself. I didn't
know that about my and I didn't have mentors to say, hey, honey,
what about something that's softer, kinder, more gentle down system regulating.

(01:24:10):
So don't buy the hype that big cathartic things are
actually good for your your nervous system and your healing.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
Small bites titrate. Yeah, that's how we actually heal. Yep,
with balance, you know, has to have balance. All right,
to migos blessing. See you next week for another episode
of sex Is Medicine. Woo hoo.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
You've been listening to sex is Medicine your number one
resource for holistic sex education.

Speaker 1 (01:24:40):
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(01:25:02):
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