January 8, 2026 • 43 mins
2025 Tantra Talks Throwback! If you followed spiritual communities online in 2025, you likely noticed this topic: Polyamory, Aubrey Marcus,  and “Radical Nonmonogamy”, etc., etc.
But are all these radical liberating concepts simply code words for “Poly f*ckery” i.e. f*ck around without consequence?
In this throwback episode of Tantra Talks from May 2025, we address one of the most common myths in Western Tantra:
Do you have to be polyamorous to practice Tantra?
Short answer: No.
But we go way deeper than that.Â
You'll discover how the unexpected choice of intentional monogamy could lead to more profound spiritual growth than you ever imagined, and learn about simple, powerful practices to transform any relationship context.
The monogamy vs non-monogamy debate isn’t just a spicy trend—it’s a deeper call to examine your intention, nervous system, and patterns when it comes to how you love and connect.
Â
Thank you for listening to Sex Is Medicine! We appreciate YOU! :-)
Please make sure you LIKE + SUBSCRIBE to Sex Is Medicine REBOOT! And please leave us a comment... we love to hear your thoughts!
Do you have a question you want answered on air? We are delighted to answer!
Send your questions to Questions@holisticsexologyinstitute.com
Learn more about our work at HolisticSexologyInstitute.com
Find out more about our government-accredited Holistic Sexology Certification Program.
See you next week!
With Love,
Devi and Alaina
But are all these radical liberating concepts simply code words for “Poly f*ckery” i.e. f*ck around without consequence?
In this throwback episode of Tantra Talks from May 2025, we address one of the most common myths in Western Tantra:
Do you have to be polyamorous to practice Tantra?
Short answer: No.
But we go way deeper than that.Â
You'll discover how the unexpected choice of intentional monogamy could lead to more profound spiritual growth than you ever imagined, and learn about simple, powerful practices to transform any relationship context.
- Here’s what we unpack:
- Why Tantra is not inherently polyamorous or monogamous
- The real danger of “poly-f*ckery” masquerading as spiritual awakening
- How non-monogamy can become another form of trauma reenactment
- How choosing “intentional monogamy” can serve as a powerful exploration in spiritual practice.Â
- How to make relationship choices from presence—not pressure or performance
- Our personal experiences navigating polyamory, swinging, and monogamy within a Tantric context.
The monogamy vs non-monogamy debate isn’t just a spicy trend—it’s a deeper call to examine your intention, nervous system, and patterns when it comes to how you love and connect.
Â
Thank you for listening to Sex Is Medicine! We appreciate YOU! :-)
Please make sure you LIKE + SUBSCRIBE to Sex Is Medicine REBOOT! And please leave us a comment... we love to hear your thoughts!
Do you have a question you want answered on air? We are delighted to answer!
Send your questions to Questions@holisticsexologyinstitute.com
Learn more about our work at HolisticSexologyInstitute.com
Find out more about our government-accredited Holistic Sexology Certification Program.
See you next week!
With Love,
Devi and Alaina
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Daby ward Ericson and I'm Elena Salks and you.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Are listening to sex is Medicine, your number one resource
for holistic sex education. Elena and I are bringing you
over twenty seven years of combined expertise in the field
of holistic sexual wellness to help you integrate your body, mind, spirit,
and sex.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
New episodes drop every Thursday morning, so make sure to
like and subscribe on all your favorite listening platforms, and
make sure you follow Holistic Sexology Institute on Instagram, TikTok
and YouTube for your daily dose on sex is Medicine.
Now let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So for the next episode of the Tundra TECs, we
are going to be talking about monogamy versus non monogamy.
I guess they don't have to be in a battle,
but monogamy non monogamy in Tontra because this is again
a question that comes up a lot, and there are
a lot of misconceptions. I know, when I first started
(01:01):
training in Tntra, there was an assumption that because I
was a Tantrica, I automatically was polyamorous and wanted to
have sex with lots of people. I don't know why,
why polyamory and TANDRA are tied together, honestly, but that
was a thing, And I've had my own journey of
pre TNTRA being in polyamorous relationships and POSTNDRA being in
(01:24):
polyamorous and monogamous relationships. So we want to give you
our perspective as a married, currently monogamous tontric couple who
practices authentic lineage based TNDRA under the umbrella of the
Shank Picagul lineage. And we also happened to live in
a household with our root lama, with our Buddhist lamas
(01:47):
for real.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Absolutely, you mentioned something already that I think is really interesting,
like why is there this connection between polyamory and in
many cases not even polyamory, it's just multiple bodies slamming
together and TNTRA. And I think it has to do
with how Tantra came to the West and how it's
been quite honestly warped and abused in that process. So
(02:13):
I think that that's primarily where that comes from, because
I've seen that too. I mean, there's a lot of
misconceptions about this. You don't have to be polyamorous, you
don't even actually even have to be sexually active to
do tantra.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, that's a good Okay, So let's pause there because
I want people to like breathe and digest that. So
for all y'all out there listening, when you are practicing real, authentic,
lineage based entra, it doesn't matter if you're practicing with
our institute or wherever in the world you're practicing. Sex
is not required for your countra practice. Sexuality can be
(02:46):
incorporated into your tuntra practice, but you can have a
contra practice independent of sexual activity entirely. Like look good,
that's what the Buddhist monks do.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, the Dalai Lama is a practitioner and he's not
sexually active exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
A lot of these folks aren't even fucking themselves. So
I mean we're talking like zero zero zero sexual activity.
So so yeah, So so I want to I want
to start off this conversation by disclosing my history with
this topic of polyamory, full disclosure, just just because well
just kind of like set the tone. No, you know where,
(03:21):
so you know where I'm coming from. So I entered
into the world of polyamory as a young child, as
a young woman actually probably in my early twenties, like
I can't remember exactly how old day was, but I
was living in Hawaii, Awahu, and I was in a
relationship with a with a man and a woman who
(03:45):
were both around my my age in ore, you know,
early in the mid twenties. And that was, if I'm
recalling correctly, that was that was my first like official
poly if I want to call it poly. We were threesomes,
so I don't know if you want to call that polyamory,
but we were. We were a three a three way situation,
three way relationship, and you know, and to be fair,
(04:06):
before that, when I was a stripper in Detroit, I
would yeah, So I don't know, I can't say that
I had like three way relationships, but I certainly had
I had three way hookups, three way encounters. I mean,
and and the other thing is, you know, I'm I'm bisexual,
(04:27):
and so for me, it was very common to have
a boyfriend and a girlfriend, and sometimes my boyfriend and
my girlfriend played together. And I guess we just didn't
consider that polyamory because it was like nineteen ninety four, right,
I mean, we just didn't like that just wasn't the
terminology at that point. It was just like, hey, do
you want to come over and like, you know, hang
(04:48):
out and let's all fuck Like that was just just normal.
It was just normal for our lifestyle. So so then
you know, fast forwarding a few years later and and
it was an official I think I that's when I
was first introduced to the language of polyamory. It was
with this this threattle I was a part of right
and that was lovely for the time that it was.
(05:09):
And it was also not lovely. I will say that
that for me, my emotional maturity was not such that
I could effectively navigate that type of relationship. And y'all,
I had so much severe complex post traumatic stress disorder.
(05:29):
So for those of you who don't know me, who
only know me professionally on TV, you know, more disclosure,
like I have had for most of my life, severe
complex post traumatic stress disorder. So if you don't know
what that is and the manifestations of it, go ahead
and google it, because it's a whole rabbit hole to
fall down. You know, it's a real diagnosis, it's a
real thing. It's complex post traumatic stress disorder, which is
(05:51):
normal for people who have adverse childhood experiences and on
the adverse childhood experience test that you can take. There's
like ten things that mean that you're probably gonna have,
you know, PTSD. I've got ten. I've got eight of them.
I've got eight of the ten. Eight of the ten
happened when I was, you know, a child. So I've
been fucked up. Luckily I'm not so fucked up anymore.
(06:16):
But but anyway, so this circling back that we are
going somewhere with this. I am going somewhere with this
circling back to my early adulthood experiences with polyamory. My
complex post traumatic stress disorder was so fucking severe. I
mean I couldn't have a healthy relationship with like anything,
Like I was just incapable of it. So so I
(06:38):
blessed the experience. It was a wonderful experience, and I
also recognized that I had way too much trauma to
be able to navigate that type of dynamic in a
way that was like healthy and sustainable.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Well, a lot of people, just on their own, like
even in a monogamous relationship, have enough damage in trauma
to make like a monocous relationship difficult. I'll speak for
myself here. Yeah, And so adding yet another person to
that it just it makes it much more complex. I
would like to very quickly draw a little bit of
a line between polyamory, which is which to me and
(07:11):
maybe I'm off base here, but maybe not to me,
polyabory is more like committed relationships with more than one person,
whereas there's also just playtime, which is the hookup right
with with more than one person.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, I like to say the way that I've I
observe quote unquote polyamory being practiced in mainstream America, and
it's changed now, I would say it's it's changed recently
because there are some very integris voices in the market,
I'll say, or in the in the industry, there are
(07:48):
some very integra's voices that are becoming louder, and I
celebrate and I applaud those voices because there are they
are setting a beautiful example of how to do polyamory
and not monogamy like whatever word you want to put there,
but just non monogamy. They are role modeling and setting
really beautiful examples for how to do this in a
way that's truly an integrity, ethical, responsible and like supporting
(08:13):
the love and the humanity and the connection between everybody.
So those voices will put some links down down below
this episode, but I'm going to give a shout out
to Melcassidy, who's actually publishing a book, who's been a
friend of mine for a while, who I'm looking forward
to to their book. And then I'm also gonna say
Toyomi Morgan has been sitting a very beautiful role modeling
(08:36):
on how to do polyamory in a way that's ethical
and integris. Yeah, so I just want to shout out
those two folks because they are role modeling in a
way that I think is really healthy to follow.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So anyway, yeah, well, again, the relationships with a single
person or complex, because we carry our own complexities with
us and both parties do, and it takes a long
time to sort that out. Even in a one on
one monogamous relationship with a with a polyamorous situation, that multiplies,
and so it's not just like yeah, let's go. I mean,
(09:10):
unless it's just a one night stand thing whatever, which
is fun. That can be very fun, but but again
it's not just something you just kind of randomly do.
You have to sort of think about it. You have
to be prepared, and it helps to have that level
of emotional maturity going into it. I mean, that's certainly
what I would emphasize about this. My own history with
(09:32):
this is is quite limited. It stems from a former
partner that I was with, after a couple of years
of relationship with a rather lovely woman, said I have
a secret and I've never told anybody. I'd like to
share it with you. And I was like sure. She said,
I'm bisexual. What do you think about bringing another woman
into the bed? And my industrial response was a combination
(09:53):
of all hell yeah and only shit, what am I
supposed to do with this? It was like a combination
of celebration and panic all at once. It was a
very strange thing. I come from a very sort of
a strict ultra like you don't talk about sex at all.
It's very private. It's it's great and it's fine, but
it's private. It's behind the closed doors and nobody talks
about it ever. And so for this to come out
(10:15):
was like, I mean, it almost put me in a
state of panic at first. It was. It was really confronting,
and my first couple of tries at it were really
clunky and awkward and they felt gross.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
What do you mean your tries at it. Do you mean,
like when do you mean tries? How do you like try.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Literally even even the opportunity for like a hookup, like
to get over the like panic feeling was was difficult.
I mean it was a marvelous opportunity, amazing wonderful like
in concept and in practice it was terrifying. I mean
it was, you know. So, I mean because I had
(10:54):
all kinds of I had all kinds of performance anxiety
at the time. I had all kinds of like, all
kinds of like that was totally unresolved. I'm like, oh
my god, what if that comes up when I'm in
the middle of this, what do we do? And that's
before I even got started, right, So, I mean that
was that was a component of this that I had
never considered. I always just thought, you know, the porn style,
(11:15):
you know, they show up and away you go and
there you got everybody's good. Uh No. It was way, way,
way more complex than that, much more complex than that.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
And you make such a great point because again the way,
you know, like making a distinction between threesome hookups that's
what they're called manaja twas it took me away, like
figure out minaja TWA was making a distinction between manajatua
and what you said. This polyamory is like multiple relationships
or loving relationships with multiple people, you know, the one
(11:46):
night stand manajetoi or you know, just kind of playdate.
The way it's portrayed, like you said them porn and
then in movies or whatever, it's like it's supposed to
be this great thing, but holy fucking shit, especially if
it's like two women a guy, there's got to be
so much that comes up for you. You it's like
so much insecurity, so much like that you're just kind
of slammed in the face with right.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Without a doubt, without a doubt, really confronting, like surprisingly
so for me, like enormously so to the point where
where after you know, again, I left all of this
up to my former partner. She she chose the person
that she wanted to bring in, and I was kind
of like standing back a little bit, which.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Is the way you're supposed to do it, quote unquote,
like at least like in the swingers community, right, because
that was also like part of the things, Well, well,
we'll fill you in on like how this ties into
our relationship in just a minute, because that's pertinent. But yeah,
that's that's like type the you know, the typical, like
the etiquette. I'll say in Hi, Benny Bennie has now
joining up. Benny Bennie is our third Now we actually
(12:47):
have we have a polyamous relationship with our pets. No,
obviously it's non sexual. Obviously you guys were not like that.
But but our dogs have have claim claim have claims
upon us. And so Benny has joined our conversation. So
if you hear him snorting and breathing in the microphone,
that's his contribution to your listening experience. So so so anyway,
(13:10):
I'm sorry, go on. So in the swinger community, I'm sorry.
In the swinger community, the etiquette is that the woman chooses,
but that's not necessarily the etiquette and other like all other.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Cas no, itway was the case. And again because of
my own situation, like I was never I was never
a one night stand hookup, meat market type of a
person anyway, So so for me, it was just doubling
that and and I never really got into the whole
swinger scene thing. It just didn't feel comfortable to me.
It felt quite the opposite, actually quite the opposite, and again,
(13:42):
we'll we'll, I'm sure we'll cycle back, because there there
were elements about that that changed when I got into
a relationship that had a bit more depth to it.
And uh yeah, So but I want to bring this
back really quickly to the relationship between between polyamory and
contra Again, it's if somebody says, are you got to
be polyamorous? To be they're lying, They're they're flat out there,
(14:04):
they're trying to get something from you, They're trying to
sell you something. And that is that it's just not correct.
It's simply not correct and to be and just to
be aware of that right off the bat. So a
lot of people, I remember we we hosted a we
hosted a workshop, you and I and one of the
participants his wife had signed up for it, and he
(14:25):
approached me and said, are we gonna have to get naked?
Are we gonna have to be with other partners? I'm like, no,
not at all. So this is very I mean, it's
a very real concern, particularly for those that are like
committed monogamous relationships and like, oh, how does this play out? Right?
So just again, you do your homework on this, recognize
what's what if you're dealing with neo tantra, they may
have a very different answer to this, but certainly in
(14:48):
lineage based tantro. Now, there is an element to traditional
tantra that is highly transgressive, right, It crosses the boundaries
from time to time of what's ex sceptible or normal
right by society exactly. So, so a lot of the
so again, like the wisdom holder is a is an
untouchable black woman in like Nakuma.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Well, we believe, we can't you know, we're we don't
have we don't have verification on this exactly, but we
believe given the context.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
She was, Yeah, absolutely absolutely. But you know there's there's
you know, talk of doing practices and graveyards and talk
of doing practices and underneath, you know, solo trees out
in the in the hills which are supposed to be
places where spirits gather and you're not supposed to go there, right,
So it's there is that element of oh, don't go
(15:41):
there that tantra says, why not?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Right, So they to transform judgments, to transform dualism, to.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Transform the judgment of it, and to transform the strict
either or.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Of it, and so the other the other thing so
I and I love that you're bringing back this back
to Tantra and polyamory because that's what we're here for.
But the other thing that comes up for me in
terms of the concept of polyamory with TNTRA is when
we look at like the roots of contrac Buddhism in
India and then the founder of you know, the at
(16:15):
least the cagulineage. I believe pamasim Baba, like Pamasimbaba and
Yesha Sogio established Buddhism in Tibet through their sexual union
practice and they had multiple lovers, and so there's this
concept of when you know, in TNTRA, when we've purified attachment,
you know that that there isn't that then having multiple partners,
(16:36):
you know, it gives you like an openness and like
you're not attached and all the things that go along
with monogamy or the assumptions of monogamy. It's like, you know,
grasping attachment and jealousy of that sort of thing. So
the concept in like, you know, the role models, some
of the role models that we've actually had in contrac
Buddhism have actually modeled for us that you know, the
(16:57):
non attachment to to monogamy, the non attachment to that
type of relationship structure. That being said, what those folks
were doing, like actually engaging and utilizing sexual pleasure and
sexual energy as a form of worship and as a
(17:17):
form as a as a vehicle of transformation, is not
the way I have witnessed polyamor being practiced in the
neotontra or sexual you know, sacred sexuality containers. Shall we say?
So what I have witnessed, what I have witnessed is,
(17:39):
like I was saying before, is polyfuckery. So they say polyamory,
but what they mean is polyfuckery, And it's really just
an excuse to have sex with multiple people without accountability
and without having to you know, address like normal relationship concerns,
because when you're an a monogamous relationship, you're required to
(18:03):
show up for that and you're required to confront your
blocks if you want the relationship, if you want the
relationship to last, you have to be willing to work
through your shit. You know, there's no way that any
of us in this culture that we grow in, grow
up in come out of that without some type of
fucking attachment trauma, without some type of attachment wounding, and
(18:24):
the attachment wounding is relational wounding. Right. So there's no
way that we come out of the culture that we
live in, being raised in the culture that we live
in without having some scars, without having some wounds, and
those wounds are going to rear their beautiful, ugly heads
in intimate relationship. That's why we partner with people usually
(18:44):
is because they, you know, we the deeper we go,
the more intense it gets in relationship. And so what
I've witnessed is folks often using polyfuckery as a way
to avoid commitment. And there's a way to avoid like
having to go into those really deep, like scary, you know,
(19:06):
wounded places that require us to literally transform our demons,
not just face them, but you need to like fucking
like literally transform and befriend them, right, And so's that's
one of the things that I've witnessed. Now again, y'all,
I've been in the field since two thousand and eight, Okay,
so that's seventeen years at this point. I know, I
(19:27):
have tea, I know a lot about a lot of
things because I've been here in the background, Like oh,
who me, Yeah, I'm just here and like you know,
paying attention, watching how it goes down. And so what
I've seen, you know, throughout this is again, as I said,
the polyfuckery as opposed to polyamory. I'm just gonna keep
(19:48):
saying that. So and then again this expectation that if
you are a Tontrica and your sexual liberation equates to
I'm gonna say sex expression, but the way sexual expression
is expected, the unspoken, you know, expectation is that your
sexual expression means that you're going to want to fuck
(20:10):
all the time, anytime and with anybody, and if you don't,
you're not enlightened or realized enough.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Absurd.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And so I actually see I see in in Neo
Tantra and sacred sexuality, the concepts around polyamory and polyfuckery
being used to gaslight people about, you know, basic human
emotions and also their intuition. Like y'all, you know, if
you're in a relationship with multiple people and something feels funky,
(20:40):
maybe something fucking is funky, Like maybe there's some shit
going on under the fucking surface that you are attuning to,
and it may in other people may not even really
be aware of it, but you may be a tuning
to something and then to be gaslit about your intuition
and being told that you're just being jealous, or you're
being attached, or you're not being enlightened enough, that sort
of thing. So I really see the weaponization of I
(21:05):
see in the realm of polyamory. I see the weapon
and you know the way it's practice. Through the years
I've witnessed and some currently today, I've really seen the
weaponization of you know, of of what I would call
normal human response to boundaries and potential boundary violations and
(21:26):
then darvo, you know, deny attack, reverse victim offender, a lot,
a lot of psychological abuse. I personally have seen a
lot of fucking psychological psychological abuse in the realm of polyamory,
which is why in the beginning of this episode I
highlighted those voices for you, because those are folks that
I've known personally and I've witnessed how they practice their polyamory,
(21:47):
their multiple love and it's ethical and it isn't like
they're not fucking gaslighting each other and their partners and shit.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So if we think about sort of one of the
primary features of lineage based traditional approaches to tantra is
that has to do with the dissolution of the ego.
And what I've seen, and I haven't been in as
you know, since two thousand and eight, but you've been
around it for a little bit. What I've seen is
that more often than not, this the polyamory, or rather
(22:16):
the polypuckory, is used to increase strength and cultivate the
ego rather than dissolve it, which is completely the opposite
of what tantra is intended to do.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That point right there, Yes, wow, say that again.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, it's what I'm saying. Creases, it increases and cultivates
the ego. Look at how many Look at how many
notches are on my belt.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I mean that's just like playboy culture, girl culture. Right,
It's like and like such avoidant behavior. Again in some cases,
in many cases.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah exactly. I mean Padma Samama or Hugh Hefner. Which
one do you want, right.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I mean, I'll take Hugh Hefner's money.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But I mean, so again, it's this, It's almost a
complete inversion of what the tradition is actually about. Hence
all the confusion about what trauma is or what what
trauma is, what TNTRA is and what it does and
how it operates and and we go right back to
the beating of what makes us think that we have
to be polyamorous in order to be practitioners. That's right,
(23:19):
that's that warp that we're seeing right there.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I love that point that you made. It's almost an inversion.
So you're right. So tantra is about dismantling the ego.
It's about liberating ourselves from dualistic thinking, right, wrong, good, bad,
you know whatever. Like you know, like that two things
can't be true simultaneously. That's you know, dualistic thinking that
two things can't be so so yeah, the fact that
(23:44):
it that it that it that that that the way
polyamory is sometimes practiced in the field of sacred sexuality,
neo tandra feeds the ego as opposed to dissolves the ego,
and a limit eliminates it. Yeah right yeah, so but
and it's it's it's bizarre how like then, like the again,
this is where the gaslighting is. Like it's like, oh well,
(24:05):
if you have a problem or an issue with the
way your partner is practicing polyamory, oh well, you're just
in your ego. Like it's just like you know, like
how again, like you said the warping. The warping, right, Yeah,
it's really gross. So anyway, so so okay, So to
bring us up to speed in relationship to like monogamy,
non monogamy and tontra full disclosure with doctor Ericson and eyes.
(24:29):
So so, Chris and I met actually at a at
a swingers event, so we were it was not an
actual like open swingers party. It wasn't the play it was.
It wasn't the play party, but it was a mutual
friend of ours was having a birthday party, and that
mutual friends happened to own a swinging uh network or
(24:53):
be the founders of a swinging network into the lifestyle
in Vancouver. I don't know if they're still operating. They
are all it's like I want to give them a
plug as wy well, they are awesome into the lifestyle Vancouver. Again,
I don't know if they're operating anymore because we're not Vancouver,
have been for years. But talk about like like the
contrast between the space that they created versus other spaces.
(25:14):
I investigated, like it was so there was such beauty,
wholesome and I'm gonna say sacredness. It was like they
really did a fantastic job and curating experiences. I mean
just they curated really great experiences. So anyway, so at
this birthday party we met, we were both in relationship
with other people. I was in a relationship with a
woman at the time. Chris was also in a relationship
(25:35):
with a woman at the time. We share we share
that interest, so that worked got really well for everybody.
But we met and actually my girlfriend and and you.
My girlfriend and Chris, you.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Know, we were both fish out of water. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
You're completely in And I think what happened is that
I noticed how nervous she looked, and I resonated with
that because I was feeling sort of the same way,
and we just started chatting and and that that was
really nice. And then I remember you showing up into
the conversation. I was just I was floored by you
the moment I saw you to be perfectly honest, and
(26:10):
so was my partner at the time. She at one
point nudge me and said, anybody here look interesting to you,
and I was I put it to you, and I
said huh and she was like, yeah, me too. But yeah,
that's sort of where it began. And then we invited
you guys over for dinner and had some conversation. Again
no no playing around at this point, just just conversation, like.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
To see if we liked each other, right, I mean
that's the thing like before, I really have to like
you if I'm gonna fuck you, like I have to
be like, yes, I actually want to. I mean i'd say,
you know, I guess that's not true for everybody, and
that's that's that's odd to me. I don't anyway. But
so yeah, so we we we we started a friendship,
(26:52):
we became friends, we became friends, and then I was
very graciously invited into your relationship as a couple, right,
And so that's a that's a that's an important point
as well. So my my pre my girlfriend and I
broke up and I was invited, you know, just whatever
the timing, and I was invited to join you and
(27:14):
your partner at that time in your relationship. And I
want to make that point that, like I was very
clear that it was your relationship that I was being
invited into. Right, So that's important. Again, this is like
etiquette you know for this type of thing, like you know,
so that was part of the etiquette. Y. So so
I was invited into this relationship and we had that
(27:35):
was like one of the best relationships I've ever had.
Like it was like for the time the duration of it,
we had so much fucking fun. We we really liked
each other. We had amazing sex, and we laughed so hard,
I mean more than my stomach would hurt after we
spent wega my stomach would hurt from laughing so hard
(27:56):
with you all. So that was a really amazing experience.
And and y'all broke up, and then months went by,
and then you and I got together down the line,
and then since you and I have been together, we
have made a it has been a conscious choice that
we've made to be monogamous. And so I guess this
is like my climax of this whole episode is I'm like,
(28:18):
this is my view on polyamory versus monogamy. In my opinion,
these are both strategies to meet needs in relationship. That's
all it is for me. Whether we are monogamous, we're
choosing monogamous, or we're choosing to open up the relationship
or have other people in it, or go date other people,
(28:39):
they are strategies to meet needs in our relationship. And
so if we are attuned to and aware of and
in conversation about our needs, this is how we determine
what type of relationship style or relationship strategy is going
to both meet those needs and because of what what
(29:03):
our needs are in our current relationship. And like for me,
it's been like like, this is the longest monogamous, this
is the longest relationship I've had. It's the longest romantic
relationship that I've had. And that container of monogamy has
allowed I'll say, both of us to go really deep
into facing some core childhood wounds that would be very
(29:26):
easy for both of us to avoid by going out
and like you know, avoiding them by by by cultivating
connection with other people to run. Like in our case,
I would say, this isn't true for everybody, not so usuly.
Everybody does this, But for me and for you, I'm
gonna speak for you. Maybe I should, I'll speak for me.
I'll speak for me, but for me, I will say,
(29:49):
it would have been a lot easier to be, like,
you know what, I'm gonna go play with somebody else
and avoid some of the ship that was coming up
in our relationship as a way of like managing you know,
some of our wounds is that we really needed to like,
like really, I don't even want to say confront because
that word is beyond confront. It's like we needed to
like like ingest them and digest them and literally alchemize that.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah. Completely, yeah, completely, deconstruct, dismantle, reconstruct, like from a
ground level. I find it interesting that, uh, and I'm
not sure if this is the same for you, But
for me, the deeper I've gone into contric practice, the
more the more I don't know how to put this.
(30:35):
The deeper I've gone into the tontric practice, the more
drawn I am to being simply with one person that's
more than enough. And as a matter of fact, the
more I'm even just being like taking my own space
as well, right, because that that internal work that is
that is that's what that's what countra in a lot
of cases is about. At certain stages, I've had to
(30:56):
do that. I mean again, say, I would agree with
you that a you know, if we we had sort
of stuck on the let's just play, there's no way
that we've gone into the depth that we have gone to.
And that's for us. Other people may do it differently,
but I know for me, I've I've absolutely needed that,
absolutely needed that. So for me, a ramp up in
the contra is a ramp down in number of partners.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Well, I love that you say that, because you know,
as we go deeper into our healing process and more
aspects of our personality, like, because we become more whole, right,
So there's more facets to who we are and how
we show up and so like we kind of it's
not like multiple persons, right, and it's like we get
(31:38):
you know, we get to we get to to play
with different pieces of our being this right, and and
for me, I have found so much more freedom of
expression in our container, our chosen container of monogamy by again,
like by really alchemizing these wounds and allowing that to
(31:59):
become part of my wholeness as opposed to part of
my fragment, as part of a fragmentation.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Exactly, I mean to play, to playfully talk about what
we what we were just out of it rather than
playing with holes, We're playing with wholeness.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, yes, and the multitude of facets that you know
that that each of us has, right, every every human
is a jewel, and there's multiple facets of our personality right,
and we keep we keep so many of those facets
like dimmed or dulled or confined, constrained by the boundaries
(32:34):
of what society tells us is acceptable. And what are
you know, our childhood wounds have told us is acceptable.
So there's so many aspects of our of our beingness,
of our psyche that are you know, that become that
are shadowed, right, that we that we hide out of
fear of not being loved. And when we trend, when
(32:54):
we love ourselves from the inside out, when you know,
when we heal those wounds and reclaim those pieces of ourselves,
then we get Then they get to emanate, they get
to be they get to be shared. Like that's the thing.
Like who you see in front of you today is
not who I was seventeen years ago. I was a
shadow of my former self. You I mean, in the
fucking ten years we've been married or been here together.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
It's like you were completely dinner.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Oh my god, you could like burly speak like like
and how how we have both blossomed literally like a lotus,
how we've blossomed and and you know, radiate in a
way now that was impossible for us then because we
were so overwhelmed and consumed with our own trouma.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Absolutely well, to be fair, that first dinner, part of
the reason I couldn't speak is because I was just
stunned that a woman so beautiful would join us. But
that's anyway. But yeah, the growth is just there's no
words for it, Like you just you cannot. But at
the same time, people that I haven't seen in years
will immediately see me. I'm like, whoa, what are you doing?
(33:57):
What do you? Wow? You look great? What are you doing? Right?
So I but yeah, it's a complete it's a complete change.
And again, the the polyamory is is kind of a
marginal aspect of that. It didn't have to be there,
right uh, and but the willingness to deep dig deeply
into the wounds that were stopping me from full expression
(34:20):
did need to be there. Yeah, And if if in
an avenue for that is through poly I mean I
can remember that that when when the three of us
were in there was one day that we're kind of
going at it all day and then I was like, Okay,
who's ready for the next round? And both of you
were tapped out, and I felt like Superman at that point.
And that, honestly, that made a huge difference in my
(34:41):
in my self esteem and my self confidence. But I
don't need to do that over and over and over
and over again.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I don't have to why So I love that this
this point that you just brought up, which is, if
we think of polyamory or monogamy as a strategy to
meet needs in the relationship, right or meet needs for growth,
it doesn't even have to be in the relationship. You
you were what you just described, is it as a
strategy to meet needs for spiritual growth? Right? And so
(35:10):
I guess, you know, for those of us, for those
of you who came to listen to this episode for
an answer of like monogamy, non monogamy, what should I do?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yes or no?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah, I guess the answer is, like what actually meets
your needs for spiritual growth? Like what is your priority?
What needs are you trying to meet by these strategies?
And so, for you and I, right now, monogamy is
the best relationship strategy to meet needs. Yeah, not just
for the relationship, but also for our personal and spiritual growth.
(35:39):
Where us in the beginning of our relationship, the polyamory
was meeting a whole lot of needs. It was hit.
It was hitting all those needs.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yes, it had a lot of things for me that
that was so far outside of my comfort zone that
it just smashed the envelope.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, it was kind of like necessary.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yes, it was literally like I mean people talk about
with this when they use like psiloside or something like that,
where just smashes your whole conception of reality and you
get to rebuild it. That's what that did for me, right,
That's what that that episode did for me. And I
started to think, oh, wait a minute, I have all
this self judgment, I have all this other stuff that wow,
how can I maintain that and still maintain this great thing?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
And I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Like one of them had to give and the restricted
one gave. But that doesn't mean now I can return
to I can return to a monogamous, monogamous relationship which
is well inside the strictures that I had before, but
without the judgments that I had, without the constraint that
was there before, without the without the what's the word
(36:42):
I'm looking for, with without feeling so burdened by really
my own end and society's judgment.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
And again, you're making such good poise for me, you're
a hidden You're hidden my spots. So so what I
wanted to say about that is I think that like
one of the keys in this conversation is monogamy and
non monogamy look very different for people who are on
a committed path of spiritual realization and are actually implementing
(37:15):
methods that transform consciousness. Very different because we're not talking
about your standard monogamy like Joan Kleaver and you know,
Leavi a de Beaver and like whatever, whatever the tug,
like whatever, Like we're not talking about the normal fifties
you know relationship or you know, seventies relations that version
(37:37):
of monogamy, the toxic, toxic monogamy, that's not what we're
talking about. We're talking about healthy, present, engaged, intentional monogamy
is a choice, not as a reflex, not as a
not as like a like, oh well, that's just what
society has told me I need to do. But but
monogamy as an actual active choice that you're making to
(38:01):
meet needs for your well being and your your personal growth.
That's a very different type of monogamy than the typical
monogamy that most folks are talking about. When we're having
this conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Which is just like a default fault default.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
That's what I'm looking for.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, that has like really no import to it. It's
just what you do.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, so I guess you know again, to bring this
conversation to a close finally, because I think we're past
thirty minutes at this point. I help you enjoyed the journey.
But to bring the conversation to a close, we're I
think the word that we want to put in front
of the conversation monogamy versus non monogamy is tontric are
like and and not just not not neo tontra. We're
(38:39):
talking about like it doesn't even spiritual spiritual monogamy like
And I don't care if your path is tontra or
Christianity or Judaism or Islam. When you love Creator, when
your life is devoted to God and to like your
life being an offering to the divine, that is a
(39:00):
very different way of living in this world than just
like the default mode. And so what I would invite
you to do, if you're asking yourself this question again
is that if you're coming from a standpoint of spiritual
monogamy and spiritual non monogamy and which relationship strategy is
going to most effectively meet your needs for personal growth,
(39:23):
for healing, for liberation, for fun, for pleasure, you know,
and for if you're and connection with your partner. And
so for some people there is I mean, there is
no easy answer. For some people it may look like
polyamories the medicine that you need for your relationship, and
for other people that is absolutely not the fucking right.
It's poison. It's poison. And same with monogamy. Monogamy can
(39:46):
be suffocating the way some people practice it. Right, So
it really is a question of like self attunement, in
my opinion, like attuning to what am I feeling? What
am I needing? Is is there anything, you know, what
type of whatever relationship strategy, experience scenario is going to
(40:07):
most effectively meet these needs for you know whatever they
are healing, growth, connection, liberation, transformation. And I'm also gonna say, like,
you know, there's talk of like, oh, you've got to
push your edges. Fuck that, dude, Like if you like
the worst. In my opinion, the worst thing that you
can do as a traumatized person is force yourself to
(40:29):
do fucking anything, is to force yourself to step outside
of your comfort zone, invite yourself, coax yourself, stroke yourself,
you know, to to like melt into to like like
investigate outside your comfort zone. But like, do not push
yourself Like that's self abuse, that self abuse, that's self abuse.
(40:52):
You don't need to hurt yourself to.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Grow absolutely, And then just very quickly, if you're gonna
look to dissolve all of the ego as as Tantra does,
it helps to have some level of ego awareness to
begin with.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Do you think kinda does?
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Because again, the polyamory could be just a new age default, right,
And that's the same problem in a different cloak. So
we need to look a little bit past the surface,
look a little under the surface, get to what is
it the need? What's the need that I'm trying to
meet here? What's the purpose? Right? And and if if
you sometimes those purposes are really just vapid.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
And I want to I want to say, say, like
one more thing and then we're done, we promise. So
I'm going to say, like, in my opinion, once again,
it's really important, like in a couplehood, it's really important,
I'll say, for me to self attune to my own needs.
And then like for each partner to attune to their
own needs so we can be honest and not codependent. Right,
(41:53):
So to attune to each of our individual needs and
then together as a couple. Then like okay, so, but
what are then of our partnership and relationship to our
ultimate needs or I'm sorry, our individual needs. So those
two things are very important. Self attunement to your own
feel to your own needs and strategies to meet those.
And then attunement to your needs in partnership and then
strategies to meet those.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, and those I mean that requires a level of
communication that is out of the ordinary. Check out authentic
tntra dot com. We do teach those communication skills from
time to time.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Beautiful plug there except beautiful plug. All right, we're gonna
wrap up this episode. It was a long one. Thanks
so much for sticking with us. We hope you enjoyed it.
It was super Fun's fun, and stay tuned for our
next episode of Tentre Talks and go check us out
to Authentic Contre dot com to see our amazing programs. Yeah, anyway,
I'm such a good saleswoman.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
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(43:14):
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Hi, I'm Daby ward Ericson and I'm Elena Salks and you.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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Now let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So for the next episode of the Tundra TECs, we
are going to be talking about monogamy versus non monogamy.
I guess they don't have to be in a battle,
but monogamy non monogamy in Tontra because this is again
a question that comes up a lot, and there are
a lot of misconceptions. I know, when I first started
(01:01):
training in Tntra, there was an assumption that because I
was a Tantrica, I automatically was polyamorous and wanted to
have sex with lots of people. I don't know why,
why polyamory and TANDRA are tied together, honestly, but that
was a thing, And I've had my own journey of
pre TNTRA being in polyamorous relationships and POSTNDRA being in
(01:24):
polyamorous and monogamous relationships. So we want to give you
our perspective as a married, currently monogamous tontric couple who
practices authentic lineage based TNDRA under the umbrella of the
Shank Picagul lineage. And we also happened to live in
a household with our root lama, with our Buddhist lamas
(01:47):
for real.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Absolutely, you mentioned something already that I think is really interesting,
like why is there this connection between polyamory and in
many cases not even polyamory, it's just multiple bodies slamming
together and TNTRA. And I think it has to do
with how Tantra came to the West and how it's
been quite honestly warped and abused in that process. So
(02:13):
I think that that's primarily where that comes from, because
I've seen that too. I mean, there's a lot of
misconceptions about this. You don't have to be polyamorous, you
don't even actually even have to be sexually active to
do tantra.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, that's a good Okay, So let's pause there because
I want people to like breathe and digest that. So
for all y'all out there listening, when you are practicing real, authentic,
lineage based entra, it doesn't matter if you're practicing with
our institute or wherever in the world you're practicing. Sex
is not required for your countra practice. Sexuality can be
(02:46):
incorporated into your tuntra practice, but you can have a
contra practice independent of sexual activity entirely. Like look good,
that's what the Buddhist monks do.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, the Dalai Lama is a practitioner and he's not
sexually active exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
A lot of these folks aren't even fucking themselves. So
I mean we're talking like zero zero zero sexual activity.
So so yeah, So so I want to I want
to start off this conversation by disclosing my history with
this topic of polyamory, full disclosure, just just because well
just kind of like set the tone. No, you know where,
(03:21):
so you know where I'm coming from. So I entered
into the world of polyamory as a young child, as
a young woman actually probably in my early twenties, like
I can't remember exactly how old day was, but I
was living in Hawaii, Awahu, and I was in a
relationship with a with a man and a woman who
(03:45):
were both around my my age in ore, you know,
early in the mid twenties. And that was, if I'm
recalling correctly, that was that was my first like official
poly if I want to call it poly. We were threesomes,
so I don't know if you want to call that polyamory,
but we were. We were a three a three way situation,
three way relationship, and you know, and to be fair,
(04:06):
before that, when I was a stripper in Detroit, I
would yeah, So I don't know, I can't say that
I had like three way relationships, but I certainly had
I had three way hookups, three way encounters. I mean,
and and the other thing is, you know, I'm I'm bisexual,
(04:27):
and so for me, it was very common to have
a boyfriend and a girlfriend, and sometimes my boyfriend and
my girlfriend played together. And I guess we just didn't
consider that polyamory because it was like nineteen ninety four, right,
I mean, we just didn't like that just wasn't the
terminology at that point. It was just like, hey, do
you want to come over and like, you know, hang
(04:48):
out and let's all fuck Like that was just just normal.
It was just normal for our lifestyle. So so then
you know, fast forwarding a few years later and and
it was an official I think I that's when I
was first introduced to the language of polyamory. It was
with this this threattle I was a part of right
and that was lovely for the time that it was.
(05:09):
And it was also not lovely. I will say that
that for me, my emotional maturity was not such that
I could effectively navigate that type of relationship. And y'all,
I had so much severe complex post traumatic stress disorder.
(05:29):
So for those of you who don't know me, who
only know me professionally on TV, you know, more disclosure,
like I have had for most of my life, severe
complex post traumatic stress disorder. So if you don't know
what that is and the manifestations of it, go ahead
and google it, because it's a whole rabbit hole to
fall down. You know, it's a real diagnosis, it's a
real thing. It's complex post traumatic stress disorder, which is
(05:51):
normal for people who have adverse childhood experiences and on
the adverse childhood experience test that you can take. There's
like ten things that mean that you're probably gonna have,
you know, PTSD. I've got ten. I've got eight of them.
I've got eight of the ten. Eight of the ten
happened when I was, you know, a child. So I've
been fucked up. Luckily I'm not so fucked up anymore.
(06:16):
But but anyway, so this circling back that we are
going somewhere with this. I am going somewhere with this
circling back to my early adulthood experiences with polyamory. My
complex post traumatic stress disorder was so fucking severe. I
mean I couldn't have a healthy relationship with like anything,
Like I was just incapable of it. So so I
(06:38):
blessed the experience. It was a wonderful experience, and I
also recognized that I had way too much trauma to
be able to navigate that type of dynamic in a
way that was like healthy and sustainable.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Well, a lot of people, just on their own, like
even in a monogamous relationship, have enough damage in trauma
to make like a monocous relationship difficult. I'll speak for
myself here. Yeah, And so adding yet another person to
that it just it makes it much more complex. I
would like to very quickly draw a little bit of
a line between polyamory, which is which to me and
(07:11):
maybe I'm off base here, but maybe not to me,
polyabory is more like committed relationships with more than one person,
whereas there's also just playtime, which is the hookup right
with with more than one person.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, I like to say the way that I've I
observe quote unquote polyamory being practiced in mainstream America, and
it's changed now, I would say it's it's changed recently
because there are some very integris voices in the market,
I'll say, or in the in the industry, there are
(07:48):
some very integra's voices that are becoming louder, and I
celebrate and I applaud those voices because there are they
are setting a beautiful example of how to do polyamory
and not monogamy like whatever word you want to put there,
but just non monogamy. They are role modeling and setting
really beautiful examples for how to do this in a
way that's truly an integrity, ethical, responsible and like supporting
(08:13):
the love and the humanity and the connection between everybody.
So those voices will put some links down down below
this episode, but I'm going to give a shout out
to Melcassidy, who's actually publishing a book, who's been a
friend of mine for a while, who I'm looking forward
to to their book. And then I'm also gonna say
Toyomi Morgan has been sitting a very beautiful role modeling
(08:36):
on how to do polyamory in a way that's ethical
and integris. Yeah, so I just want to shout out
those two folks because they are role modeling in a
way that I think is really healthy to follow.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So anyway, yeah, well, again, the relationships with a single
person or complex, because we carry our own complexities with
us and both parties do, and it takes a long
time to sort that out. Even in a one on
one monogamous relationship with a with a polyamorous situation, that multiplies,
and so it's not just like yeah, let's go. I mean,
(09:10):
unless it's just a one night stand thing whatever, which
is fun. That can be very fun, but but again
it's not just something you just kind of randomly do.
You have to sort of think about it. You have
to be prepared, and it helps to have that level
of emotional maturity going into it. I mean, that's certainly
what I would emphasize about this. My own history with
(09:32):
this is is quite limited. It stems from a former
partner that I was with, after a couple of years
of relationship with a rather lovely woman, said I have
a secret and I've never told anybody. I'd like to
share it with you. And I was like sure. She said,
I'm bisexual. What do you think about bringing another woman
into the bed? And my industrial response was a combination
(09:53):
of all hell yeah and only shit, what am I
supposed to do with this? It was like a combination
of celebration and panic all at once. It was a
very strange thing. I come from a very sort of
a strict ultra like you don't talk about sex at all.
It's very private. It's it's great and it's fine, but
it's private. It's behind the closed doors and nobody talks
about it ever. And so for this to come out
(10:15):
was like, I mean, it almost put me in a
state of panic at first. It was. It was really confronting,
and my first couple of tries at it were really
clunky and awkward and they felt gross.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
What do you mean your tries at it. Do you mean,
like when do you mean tries? How do you like try.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Literally even even the opportunity for like a hookup, like
to get over the like panic feeling was was difficult.
I mean it was a marvelous opportunity, amazing wonderful like
in concept and in practice it was terrifying. I mean
it was, you know. So, I mean because I had
(10:54):
all kinds of I had all kinds of performance anxiety
at the time. I had all kinds of like, all
kinds of like that was totally unresolved. I'm like, oh
my god, what if that comes up when I'm in
the middle of this, what do we do? And that's
before I even got started, right, So, I mean that
was that was a component of this that I had
never considered. I always just thought, you know, the porn style,
(11:15):
you know, they show up and away you go and
there you got everybody's good. Uh No. It was way, way,
way more complex than that, much more complex than that.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
And you make such a great point because again the way,
you know, like making a distinction between threesome hookups that's
what they're called manaja twas it took me away, like
figure out minaja TWA was making a distinction between manajatua
and what you said. This polyamory is like multiple relationships
or loving relationships with multiple people, you know, the one
(11:46):
night stand manajetoi or you know, just kind of playdate.
The way it's portrayed, like you said them porn and
then in movies or whatever, it's like it's supposed to
be this great thing, but holy fucking shit, especially if
it's like two women a guy, there's got to be
so much that comes up for you. You it's like
so much insecurity, so much like that you're just kind
of slammed in the face with right.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Without a doubt, without a doubt, really confronting, like surprisingly
so for me, like enormously so to the point where
where after you know, again, I left all of this
up to my former partner. She she chose the person
that she wanted to bring in, and I was kind
of like standing back a little bit, which.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Is the way you're supposed to do it, quote unquote,
like at least like in the swingers community, right, because
that was also like part of the things, Well, well,
we'll fill you in on like how this ties into
our relationship in just a minute, because that's pertinent. But yeah,
that's that's like type the you know, the typical, like
the etiquette. I'll say in Hi, Benny Bennie has now
joining up. Benny Bennie is our third Now we actually
(12:47):
have we have a polyamous relationship with our pets. No,
obviously it's non sexual. Obviously you guys were not like that.
But but our dogs have have claim claim have claims
upon us. And so Benny has joined our conversation. So
if you hear him snorting and breathing in the microphone,
that's his contribution to your listening experience. So so so anyway,
(13:10):
I'm sorry, go on. So in the swinger community, I'm sorry.
In the swinger community, the etiquette is that the woman chooses,
but that's not necessarily the etiquette and other like all other.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Cas no, itway was the case. And again because of
my own situation, like I was never I was never
a one night stand hookup, meat market type of a
person anyway, So so for me, it was just doubling
that and and I never really got into the whole
swinger scene thing. It just didn't feel comfortable to me.
It felt quite the opposite, actually quite the opposite, and again,
(13:42):
we'll we'll, I'm sure we'll cycle back, because there there
were elements about that that changed when I got into
a relationship that had a bit more depth to it.
And uh yeah, So but I want to bring this
back really quickly to the relationship between between polyamory and
contra Again, it's if somebody says, are you got to
be polyamorous? To be they're lying, They're they're flat out there,
(14:04):
they're trying to get something from you, They're trying to
sell you something. And that is that it's just not correct.
It's simply not correct and to be and just to
be aware of that right off the bat. So a
lot of people, I remember we we hosted a we
hosted a workshop, you and I and one of the
participants his wife had signed up for it, and he
(14:25):
approached me and said, are we gonna have to get naked?
Are we gonna have to be with other partners? I'm like, no,
not at all. So this is very I mean, it's
a very real concern, particularly for those that are like
committed monogamous relationships and like, oh, how does this play out? Right?
So just again, you do your homework on this, recognize
what's what if you're dealing with neo tantra, they may
have a very different answer to this, but certainly in
(14:48):
lineage based tantro. Now, there is an element to traditional
tantra that is highly transgressive, right, It crosses the boundaries
from time to time of what's ex sceptible or normal
right by society exactly. So, so a lot of the
so again, like the wisdom holder is a is an
untouchable black woman in like Nakuma.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Well, we believe, we can't you know, we're we don't
have we don't have verification on this exactly, but we
believe given the context.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
She was, Yeah, absolutely absolutely. But you know there's there's
you know, talk of doing practices and graveyards and talk
of doing practices and underneath, you know, solo trees out
in the in the hills which are supposed to be
places where spirits gather and you're not supposed to go there, right,
So it's there is that element of oh, don't go
(15:41):
there that tantra says, why not?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Right, So they to transform judgments, to transform dualism, to.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Transform the judgment of it, and to transform the strict
either or.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Of it, and so the other the other thing so
I and I love that you're bringing back this back
to Tantra and polyamory because that's what we're here for.
But the other thing that comes up for me in
terms of the concept of polyamory with TNTRA is when
we look at like the roots of contrac Buddhism in
India and then the founder of you know, the at
(16:15):
least the cagulineage. I believe pamasim Baba, like Pamasimbaba and
Yesha Sogio established Buddhism in Tibet through their sexual union
practice and they had multiple lovers, and so there's this
concept of when you know, in TNTRA, when we've purified attachment,
you know that that there isn't that then having multiple partners,
(16:36):
you know, it gives you like an openness and like
you're not attached and all the things that go along
with monogamy or the assumptions of monogamy. It's like, you know,
grasping attachment and jealousy of that sort of thing. So
the concept in like, you know, the role models, some
of the role models that we've actually had in contrac
Buddhism have actually modeled for us that you know, the
(16:57):
non attachment to to monogamy, the non attachment to that
type of relationship structure. That being said, what those folks
were doing, like actually engaging and utilizing sexual pleasure and
sexual energy as a form of worship and as a
(17:17):
form as a as a vehicle of transformation, is not
the way I have witnessed polyamor being practiced in the
neotontra or sexual you know, sacred sexuality containers. Shall we say?
So what I have witnessed, what I have witnessed is,
(17:39):
like I was saying before, is polyfuckery. So they say polyamory,
but what they mean is polyfuckery, And it's really just
an excuse to have sex with multiple people without accountability
and without having to you know, address like normal relationship concerns,
because when you're an a monogamous relationship, you're required to
(18:03):
show up for that and you're required to confront your
blocks if you want the relationship, if you want the
relationship to last, you have to be willing to work
through your shit. You know, there's no way that any
of us in this culture that we grow in, grow
up in come out of that without some type of
fucking attachment trauma, without some type of attachment wounding, and
(18:24):
the attachment wounding is relational wounding. Right. So there's no
way that we come out of the culture that we
live in, being raised in the culture that we live
in without having some scars, without having some wounds, and
those wounds are going to rear their beautiful, ugly heads
in intimate relationship. That's why we partner with people usually
(18:44):
is because they, you know, we the deeper we go,
the more intense it gets in relationship. And so what
I've witnessed is folks often using polyfuckery as a way
to avoid commitment. And there's a way to avoid like
having to go into those really deep, like scary, you know,
(19:06):
wounded places that require us to literally transform our demons,
not just face them, but you need to like fucking
like literally transform and befriend them, right, And so's that's
one of the things that I've witnessed. Now again, y'all,
I've been in the field since two thousand and eight, Okay,
so that's seventeen years at this point. I know, I
(19:27):
have tea, I know a lot about a lot of
things because I've been here in the background, Like oh,
who me, Yeah, I'm just here and like you know,
paying attention, watching how it goes down. And so what
I've seen, you know, throughout this is again, as I said,
the polyfuckery as opposed to polyamory. I'm just gonna keep
(19:48):
saying that. So and then again this expectation that if
you are a Tontrica and your sexual liberation equates to
I'm gonna say sex expression, but the way sexual expression
is expected, the unspoken, you know, expectation is that your
sexual expression means that you're going to want to fuck
(20:10):
all the time, anytime and with anybody, and if you don't,
you're not enlightened or realized enough.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Absurd.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And so I actually see I see in in Neo
Tantra and sacred sexuality, the concepts around polyamory and polyfuckery
being used to gaslight people about, you know, basic human
emotions and also their intuition. Like y'all, you know, if
you're in a relationship with multiple people and something feels funky,
(20:40):
maybe something fucking is funky, Like maybe there's some shit
going on under the fucking surface that you are attuning to,
and it may in other people may not even really
be aware of it, but you may be a tuning
to something and then to be gaslit about your intuition
and being told that you're just being jealous, or you're
being attached, or you're not being enlightened enough, that sort
of thing. So I really see the weaponization of I
(21:05):
see in the realm of polyamory. I see the weapon
and you know the way it's practice. Through the years
I've witnessed and some currently today, I've really seen the
weaponization of you know, of of what I would call
normal human response to boundaries and potential boundary violations and
(21:26):
then darvo, you know, deny attack, reverse victim offender, a lot,
a lot of psychological abuse. I personally have seen a
lot of fucking psychological psychological abuse in the realm of polyamory,
which is why in the beginning of this episode I
highlighted those voices for you, because those are folks that
I've known personally and I've witnessed how they practice their polyamory,
(21:47):
their multiple love and it's ethical and it isn't like
they're not fucking gaslighting each other and their partners and shit.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So if we think about sort of one of the
primary features of lineage based traditional approaches to tantra is
that has to do with the dissolution of the ego.
And what I've seen, and I haven't been in as
you know, since two thousand and eight, but you've been
around it for a little bit. What I've seen is
that more often than not, this the polyamory, or rather
(22:16):
the polypuckory, is used to increase strength and cultivate the
ego rather than dissolve it, which is completely the opposite
of what tantra is intended to do.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That point right there, Yes, wow, say that again.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, it's what I'm saying. Creases, it increases and cultivates
the ego. Look at how many Look at how many
notches are on my belt.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I mean that's just like playboy culture, girl culture. Right,
It's like and like such avoidant behavior. Again in some cases,
in many cases.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah exactly. I mean Padma Samama or Hugh Hefner. Which
one do you want, right.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I mean, I'll take Hugh Hefner's money.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But I mean, so again, it's this, It's almost a
complete inversion of what the tradition is actually about. Hence
all the confusion about what trauma is or what what
trauma is, what TNTRA is and what it does and
how it operates and and we go right back to
the beating of what makes us think that we have
to be polyamorous in order to be practitioners. That's right,
(23:19):
that's that warp that we're seeing right there.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I love that point that you made. It's almost an inversion.
So you're right. So tantra is about dismantling the ego.
It's about liberating ourselves from dualistic thinking, right, wrong, good, bad,
you know whatever. Like you know, like that two things
can't be true simultaneously. That's you know, dualistic thinking that
two things can't be so so yeah, the fact that
(23:44):
it that it that it that that that the way
polyamory is sometimes practiced in the field of sacred sexuality,
neo tandra feeds the ego as opposed to dissolves the ego,
and a limit eliminates it. Yeah right yeah, so but
and it's it's it's bizarre how like then, like the again,
this is where the gaslighting is. Like it's like, oh well,
(24:05):
if you have a problem or an issue with the
way your partner is practicing polyamory, oh well, you're just
in your ego. Like it's just like you know, like
how again, like you said the warping. The warping, right, Yeah,
it's really gross. So anyway, so so okay, So to
bring us up to speed in relationship to like monogamy,
non monogamy and tontra full disclosure with doctor Ericson and eyes.
(24:29):
So so, Chris and I met actually at a at
a swingers event, so we were it was not an
actual like open swingers party. It wasn't the play it was.
It wasn't the play party, but it was a mutual
friend of ours was having a birthday party, and that
mutual friends happened to own a swinging uh network or
(24:53):
be the founders of a swinging network into the lifestyle
in Vancouver. I don't know if they're still operating. They
are all it's like I want to give them a
plug as wy well, they are awesome into the lifestyle Vancouver. Again,
I don't know if they're operating anymore because we're not Vancouver,
have been for years. But talk about like like the
contrast between the space that they created versus other spaces.
(25:14):
I investigated, like it was so there was such beauty,
wholesome and I'm gonna say sacredness. It was like they
really did a fantastic job and curating experiences. I mean
just they curated really great experiences. So anyway, so at
this birthday party we met, we were both in relationship
with other people. I was in a relationship with a
woman at the time. Chris was also in a relationship
(25:35):
with a woman at the time. We share we share
that interest, so that worked got really well for everybody.
But we met and actually my girlfriend and and you.
My girlfriend and Chris, you.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Know, we were both fish out of water. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
You're completely in And I think what happened is that
I noticed how nervous she looked, and I resonated with
that because I was feeling sort of the same way,
and we just started chatting and and that that was
really nice. And then I remember you showing up into
the conversation. I was just I was floored by you
the moment I saw you to be perfectly honest, and
(26:10):
so was my partner at the time. She at one
point nudge me and said, anybody here look interesting to you,
and I was I put it to you, and I
said huh and she was like, yeah, me too. But yeah,
that's sort of where it began. And then we invited
you guys over for dinner and had some conversation. Again
no no playing around at this point, just just conversation, like.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
To see if we liked each other, right, I mean
that's the thing like before, I really have to like
you if I'm gonna fuck you, like I have to
be like, yes, I actually want to. I mean i'd say,
you know, I guess that's not true for everybody, and
that's that's that's odd to me. I don't anyway. But
so yeah, so we we we we started a friendship,
(26:52):
we became friends, we became friends, and then I was
very graciously invited into your relationship as a couple, right,
And so that's a that's a that's an important point
as well. So my my pre my girlfriend and I
broke up and I was invited, you know, just whatever
the timing, and I was invited to join you and
(27:14):
your partner at that time in your relationship. And I
want to make that point that, like I was very
clear that it was your relationship that I was being
invited into. Right, So that's important. Again, this is like
etiquette you know for this type of thing, like you know,
so that was part of the etiquette. Y. So so
I was invited into this relationship and we had that
(27:35):
was like one of the best relationships I've ever had.
Like it was like for the time the duration of it,
we had so much fucking fun. We we really liked
each other. We had amazing sex, and we laughed so hard,
I mean more than my stomach would hurt after we
spent wega my stomach would hurt from laughing so hard
(27:56):
with you all. So that was a really amazing experience.
And and y'all broke up, and then months went by,
and then you and I got together down the line,
and then since you and I have been together, we
have made a it has been a conscious choice that
we've made to be monogamous. And so I guess this
is like my climax of this whole episode is I'm like,
(28:18):
this is my view on polyamory versus monogamy. In my opinion,
these are both strategies to meet needs in relationship. That's
all it is for me. Whether we are monogamous, we're
choosing monogamous, or we're choosing to open up the relationship
or have other people in it, or go date other people,
(28:39):
they are strategies to meet needs in our relationship. And
so if we are attuned to and aware of and
in conversation about our needs, this is how we determine
what type of relationship style or relationship strategy is going
to both meet those needs and because of what what
(29:03):
our needs are in our current relationship. And like for me,
it's been like like, this is the longest monogamous, this
is the longest relationship I've had. It's the longest romantic
relationship that I've had. And that container of monogamy has
allowed I'll say, both of us to go really deep
into facing some core childhood wounds that would be very
(29:26):
easy for both of us to avoid by going out
and like you know, avoiding them by by by cultivating
connection with other people to run. Like in our case,
I would say, this isn't true for everybody, not so usuly.
Everybody does this, But for me and for you, I'm
gonna speak for you. Maybe I should, I'll speak for me.
I'll speak for me, but for me, I will say,
(29:49):
it would have been a lot easier to be, like,
you know what, I'm gonna go play with somebody else
and avoid some of the ship that was coming up
in our relationship as a way of like managing you know,
some of our wounds is that we really needed to like,
like really, I don't even want to say confront because
that word is beyond confront. It's like we needed to
like like ingest them and digest them and literally alchemize that.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah. Completely, yeah, completely, deconstruct, dismantle, reconstruct, like from a
ground level. I find it interesting that, uh, and I'm
not sure if this is the same for you, But
for me, the deeper I've gone into contric practice, the
more the more I don't know how to put this.
(30:35):
The deeper I've gone into the tontric practice, the more
drawn I am to being simply with one person that's
more than enough. And as a matter of fact, the
more I'm even just being like taking my own space
as well, right, because that that internal work that is
that is that's what that's what countra in a lot
of cases is about. At certain stages, I've had to
(30:56):
do that. I mean again, say, I would agree with
you that a you know, if we we had sort
of stuck on the let's just play, there's no way
that we've gone into the depth that we have gone to.
And that's for us. Other people may do it differently,
but I know for me, I've I've absolutely needed that,
absolutely needed that. So for me, a ramp up in
the contra is a ramp down in number of partners.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Well, I love that you say that, because you know,
as we go deeper into our healing process and more
aspects of our personality, like, because we become more whole, right,
So there's more facets to who we are and how
we show up and so like we kind of it's
not like multiple persons, right, and it's like we get
(31:38):
you know, we get to we get to to play
with different pieces of our being this right, and and
for me, I have found so much more freedom of
expression in our container, our chosen container of monogamy by again,
like by really alchemizing these wounds and allowing that to
(31:59):
become part of my wholeness as opposed to part of
my fragment, as part of a fragmentation.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Exactly, I mean to play, to playfully talk about what
we what we were just out of it rather than
playing with holes, We're playing with wholeness.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, yes, and the multitude of facets that you know
that that each of us has, right, every every human
is a jewel, and there's multiple facets of our personality right,
and we keep we keep so many of those facets
like dimmed or dulled or confined, constrained by the boundaries
(32:34):
of what society tells us is acceptable. And what are
you know, our childhood wounds have told us is acceptable.
So there's so many aspects of our of our beingness,
of our psyche that are you know, that become that
are shadowed, right, that we that we hide out of
fear of not being loved. And when we trend, when
(32:54):
we love ourselves from the inside out, when you know,
when we heal those wounds and reclaim those pieces of ourselves,
then we get Then they get to emanate, they get
to be they get to be shared. Like that's the thing.
Like who you see in front of you today is
not who I was seventeen years ago. I was a
shadow of my former self. You I mean, in the
fucking ten years we've been married or been here together.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
It's like you were completely dinner.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Oh my god, you could like burly speak like like
and how how we have both blossomed literally like a lotus,
how we've blossomed and and you know, radiate in a
way now that was impossible for us then because we
were so overwhelmed and consumed with our own trouma.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Absolutely well, to be fair, that first dinner, part of
the reason I couldn't speak is because I was just
stunned that a woman so beautiful would join us. But
that's anyway. But yeah, the growth is just there's no
words for it, Like you just you cannot. But at
the same time, people that I haven't seen in years
will immediately see me. I'm like, whoa, what are you doing?
(33:57):
What do you? Wow? You look great? What are you doing? Right?
So I but yeah, it's a complete it's a complete change.
And again, the the polyamory is is kind of a
marginal aspect of that. It didn't have to be there,
right uh, and but the willingness to deep dig deeply
into the wounds that were stopping me from full expression
(34:20):
did need to be there. Yeah, And if if in
an avenue for that is through poly I mean I
can remember that that when when the three of us
were in there was one day that we're kind of
going at it all day and then I was like, Okay,
who's ready for the next round? And both of you
were tapped out, and I felt like Superman at that point.
And that, honestly, that made a huge difference in my
(34:41):
in my self esteem and my self confidence. But I
don't need to do that over and over and over
and over again.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I don't have to why So I love that this
this point that you just brought up, which is, if
we think of polyamory or monogamy as a strategy to
meet needs in the relationship, right or meet needs for growth,
it doesn't even have to be in the relationship. You
you were what you just described, is it as a
strategy to meet needs for spiritual growth? Right? And so
(35:10):
I guess, you know, for those of us, for those
of you who came to listen to this episode for
an answer of like monogamy, non monogamy, what should I do?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yes or no?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah, I guess the answer is, like what actually meets
your needs for spiritual growth? Like what is your priority?
What needs are you trying to meet by these strategies?
And so, for you and I, right now, monogamy is
the best relationship strategy to meet needs. Yeah, not just
for the relationship, but also for our personal and spiritual growth.
(35:39):
Where us in the beginning of our relationship, the polyamory
was meeting a whole lot of needs. It was hit.
It was hitting all those needs.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yes, it had a lot of things for me that
that was so far outside of my comfort zone that
it just smashed the envelope.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, it was kind of like necessary.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yes, it was literally like I mean people talk about
with this when they use like psiloside or something like that,
where just smashes your whole conception of reality and you
get to rebuild it. That's what that did for me, right,
That's what that that episode did for me. And I
started to think, oh, wait a minute, I have all
this self judgment, I have all this other stuff that wow,
how can I maintain that and still maintain this great thing?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
And I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Like one of them had to give and the restricted
one gave. But that doesn't mean now I can return
to I can return to a monogamous, monogamous relationship which
is well inside the strictures that I had before, but
without the judgments that I had, without the constraint that
was there before, without the without the what's the word
(36:42):
I'm looking for, with without feeling so burdened by really
my own end and society's judgment.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
And again, you're making such good poise for me, you're
a hidden You're hidden my spots. So so what I
wanted to say about that is I think that like
one of the keys in this conversation is monogamy and
non monogamy look very different for people who are on
a committed path of spiritual realization and are actually implementing
(37:15):
methods that transform consciousness. Very different because we're not talking
about your standard monogamy like Joan Kleaver and you know,
Leavi a de Beaver and like whatever, whatever the tug,
like whatever, Like we're not talking about the normal fifties
you know relationship or you know, seventies relations that version
(37:37):
of monogamy, the toxic, toxic monogamy, that's not what we're
talking about. We're talking about healthy, present, engaged, intentional monogamy
is a choice, not as a reflex, not as a
not as like a like, oh well, that's just what
society has told me I need to do. But but
monogamy as an actual active choice that you're making to
(38:01):
meet needs for your well being and your your personal growth.
That's a very different type of monogamy than the typical
monogamy that most folks are talking about. When we're having
this conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Which is just like a default fault default.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
That's what I'm looking for.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yeah, that has like really no import to it. It's
just what you do.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, so I guess you know again, to bring this
conversation to a close finally, because I think we're past
thirty minutes at this point. I help you enjoyed the journey.
But to bring the conversation to a close, we're I
think the word that we want to put in front
of the conversation monogamy versus non monogamy is tontric are
like and and not just not not neo tontra. We're
(38:39):
talking about like it doesn't even spiritual spiritual monogamy like
And I don't care if your path is tontra or
Christianity or Judaism or Islam. When you love Creator, when
your life is devoted to God and to like your
life being an offering to the divine, that is a
(39:00):
very different way of living in this world than just
like the default mode. And so what I would invite
you to do, if you're asking yourself this question again
is that if you're coming from a standpoint of spiritual
monogamy and spiritual non monogamy and which relationship strategy is
going to most effectively meet your needs for personal growth,
(39:23):
for healing, for liberation, for fun, for pleasure, you know,
and for if you're and connection with your partner. And
so for some people there is I mean, there is
no easy answer. For some people it may look like
polyamories the medicine that you need for your relationship, and
for other people that is absolutely not the fucking right.
It's poison. It's poison. And same with monogamy. Monogamy can
(39:46):
be suffocating the way some people practice it. Right, So
it really is a question of like self attunement, in
my opinion, like attuning to what am I feeling? What
am I needing? Is is there anything, you know, what
type of whatever relationship strategy, experience scenario is going to
(40:07):
most effectively meet these needs for you know whatever they
are healing, growth, connection, liberation, transformation. And I'm also gonna say, like,
you know, there's talk of like, oh, you've got to
push your edges. Fuck that, dude, Like if you like
the worst. In my opinion, the worst thing that you
can do as a traumatized person is force yourself to
(40:29):
do fucking anything, is to force yourself to step outside
of your comfort zone, invite yourself, coax yourself, stroke yourself,
you know, to to like melt into to like like
investigate outside your comfort zone. But like, do not push
yourself Like that's self abuse, that self abuse, that's self abuse.
(40:52):
You don't need to hurt yourself to.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Grow absolutely, And then just very quickly, if you're gonna
look to dissolve all of the ego as as Tantra does,
it helps to have some level of ego awareness to
begin with.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Do you think kinda does?
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Because again, the polyamory could be just a new age default, right,
And that's the same problem in a different cloak. So
we need to look a little bit past the surface,
look a little under the surface, get to what is
it the need? What's the need that I'm trying to
meet here? What's the purpose? Right? And and if if
you sometimes those purposes are really just vapid.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
And I want to I want to say, say, like
one more thing and then we're done, we promise. So
I'm going to say, like, in my opinion, once again,
it's really important, like in a couplehood, it's really important,
I'll say, for me to self attune to my own needs.
And then like for each partner to attune to their
own needs so we can be honest and not codependent. Right,
(41:53):
So to attune to each of our individual needs and
then together as a couple. Then like okay, so, but
what are then of our partnership and relationship to our
ultimate needs or I'm sorry, our individual needs. So those
two things are very important. Self attunement to your own
feel to your own needs and strategies to meet those.
And then attunement to your needs in partnership and then
strategies to meet those.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, and those I mean that requires a level of
communication that is out of the ordinary. Check out authentic
tntra dot com. We do teach those communication skills from
time to time.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Beautiful plug there except beautiful plug. All right, we're gonna
wrap up this episode. It was a long one. Thanks
so much for sticking with us. We hope you enjoyed it.
It was super Fun's fun, and stay tuned for our
next episode of Tentre Talks and go check us out
to Authentic Contre dot com to see our amazing programs. Yeah, anyway,
I'm such a good saleswoman.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
You've been listening to Sex is Medicine? Your number one
resource for holistic sex education.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Make sure you like and subscribe to Sex's Medicine on
all your listening platforms, and follow us on Instagram, YouTube,
and TikTok where you can get your daily dose of
sexes Medicine videos and episode recaps. Also, make sure you
register for your weekly dose of sexes Medicine at Holisticsexologyinstitute
dot com and send us your questions please at Questions
(43:14):
at Holistic Sexology Institute dot com. Thank you so much
for listening to sex is Medicine
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