Tantra For Same Sex Couples

Welcome back to Sex Is Medicine, your number #1 resource for holistic sex education. In this episode, Alaina and Devi draw on their combined 27 years of expertise to answer a listener's question: "Can you practice tantra as a same-sex couple?" 
The answer is "Of course!", and here are a few things to consider:

1. It's essential to distinguish between authentic, lineage-based Tantra (real Tantra) and Neo-Tantra. Authentic, lineage-based Tantra involves energy body yoga and meditation, whether practiced sexually or non-sexually, and whether done individually (solo)  or in partnership.

 

1. The concept of "polarity" in Neo-Tantra creates a lot of confusion for Queer folks. The concept of "polarity" is not found in authentic, Buddhist lineages of Tantra. The concept of "Polarity" as it relates to sexuality was introduced to the Neo-Tantra industry by author David Deida. David Deida's teachings are not sourced from or associated with an authentic Tantric lineage. In short, the concept of polarity is not a concept present in authentic Tantra. It has no relevance in the practice of actual Tantra.

 

1. Same-sex relationships are very congruent with the original roots of Tantric Buddhism, which were revolutionary, transformative, and transgressive. In examining the roots of Tantric Buddhist sexuality, studies reveal the concept of "Pandikas"—people who are trans, gender non-conforming, or engage in same-sex relationships. There is a historical reference recognizing non-cis, non-heteronormative relationship structures.

 

1. In some cultures, such as Chinese Taoist, women-to-women relationships were well-supported and celebrated. In contrast, in others, such as Roman and Spartan societies, male-to-male relationships received similar acknowledgments.

Authentic, lineage-based Tantra for same-sex couples can incorporate all of the same methods and practices as used for heterosexual couples.

Same-sex couples can use meditation, yogic breathwork, communication, and pleasure methods to enrich, balance, and heal the energy and physical. 

For queer men, women, and non-binary folks, heart-centered tantric practices can help improve relationships by healing wounds inflicted by Patriarchy, allowing individuals to foster loving relationships with themselves, their partners, and their environment.

Tantra is a spiritual technology that has been transmitted from one human heart to another for millennia. Tantra is designed to support the liberation of body, mind, and sex for all human beings, without a single exception.

Check out our Tantra Healing Program if you'd like to learn Tibetan 5 Element Tantra for Holistic sexual healing.

Thank you for listening to Sex Is Medicine! We appreciate YOU! :-)

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See you next week!
With Love,
Devi and Alaina

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Davy Ward Ericson and I'm Alena Selks, and you.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Are listening to sex is Medicine, your number one resource
for holistic sex education. Elena and I are bringing you
over twenty seven years of combined expertise in the field
of holistic sexual wellness to help you integrate your body, mind, spirit,
and sex.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
New episodes drop every Thursday morning, so make sure to
like and subscribe on all your favorite listening platforms, and
make sure you follow Holistic Sexology Institute on Instagram, TikTok,
and YouTube for your daily dose on sex is Medicine.
Now let's get started.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello, and welcome back to Sex is Medicine. I am
your host, Davie word Ericson.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
And I am Elena Selks, and we.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Are so delighted to be back with you this week.
We hope that you have been loving these episodes. We've
been getting lots of comments, lots of lots of good news,
lots of good words, and we are once again just
so honored, so delighted, so grateful to be back. You know,
it was wild. Elena and I were talking like last
week as we were organizing stuff for the launch, and

(01:11):
I was looking on my computer and I was searching
Sex's Medicine in my desktop, and they came up with
this whole map, this whole path of us relaunching Sex's
Medicine in September of twenty twenty three. So Aleida, you
and not we had already planned to do this. We had,
like we had recording dates scheduled for March of twenty

(01:31):
twenty three, like you flew to Canada and we like
recorded a bunch of content and we were gonna like
re record Sex's Medicine episodes and relaunch Sex's Medicine September
of twenty twenty three. But then my house burned down,
and here we are today, so we just had to
like put press pause on it for two years.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah, and I can't believe that your house burning, like
not only did we stop, but it obliterated it from
our memory. Like neither you or I even remembered that
we were going to do this back then as well.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I mean I completely forgot. We launched a whole other podcast,
Contra Talks, you know, and our and our social media
person was like, why the fuck are we launching a
whole new podcast that was for Lamaitashi though we had
to do. We had to do a podcast just with Lamatashi.
We had to do that. So so that's Contra Talks
or TNTRA Talks are Lamatashi influenced Contra TACs. But you

(02:22):
can still hear on Spotify, so make sure you like
and subscribe. All right, So today we are going to
be answering one of your questions. This is so, this
is why your questions are so important. We are doing
an entire episode to answer one question that one of
y'all sent to us on Instagram or Instagram account. We're
still at Authentic TNTRA. We hope that changes, but you

(02:42):
can all search us. It's the tune the holistic sexology
on Instagram everywhere else let us change our names. But
Instagram's like no, you have to be authentic tantru forever,
and we're like no, please, let us go anyway. On Instagram,
someone sent us a question asking about can you practice tontra?
Can to women practice TNTRA? Can you practice TNTRA is
the same sex couple And we are here to say absolutely,

(03:04):
of course, of course, of course, of course, but we
want to make some very specific distinctions in regards to
what we're referring to is tntra and how that relates
to tontra for the same sex couples. Excuse my chihuahua,
who is a monster who you can probably hear barking
in the background, attacking random people in the background. That's
my CHUAA okay, So but before we dive into that,

(03:27):
Elena is is going to We're gonna she's gonna lead
our hot topic portion for today. So okay, Elena, you're on.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yes, thank you, Davey. So we picked a hot topic
portion that we thought would be really really tie into
our topic of the day. We've came across this influencer online.
He's a really prominent sex education influencer who really leans
in the neo tantra realm, and he was asked this question,

(03:54):
is it the man's fault if there is a sexless relationship?
So we're gonna just play that clip for you.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
First couple is in sexless relationship? Whose fault is it
to the man's Why? Because he has not created enough polarity,
is not created enough, dominance, is not created enough surrender,
He is not created enough trust. He's not put in
enough effort to make sure that his woman can unferral
and surrender to his masculine pull. The reality is a
lot of times when you're a long term relationship, things

(04:19):
get stale, couples get complacent, men stuff working as hard.
And if a woman's withholding from you, guys, it's not
her fault. It's your responsibility to actually change your energetic
frequency with time, effort, and patience so that she will
then open up to you. Yes, it takes effort, Yes,
it requires discipline. Yes, yet she may not open up
at first, and you need to recognize that that's just

(04:41):
a reality of life.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
A long So I want to just pause there. It
does go on for a little bit longer. He talks
a little bit about with some good things about paying
attention to women's sexual response and how it's a responsive desire.
But I want to just pause us there because it's
a long clip to get our first opinions. Davey, do
you want to start us off?

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, okay, So, like you said, there's some there, there
is some truth to what he's saying, like trust is
really important and and uh, and then for we we
who identify this is for cis gender women typically, that's
who his audience he's talking to. Cis gender men and
sis gender women and the heterosexual relationship dynamic, that's what

(05:25):
we're talking about. So in that type of relationship dynamic,
UH traditionally, yes, it's important for UH me as a
woman to feel supported and to have my needs for
trust and you know, and honoring and all that met.
The issue for me is that that, like this conversation about,
you have to be more rooted in your masculine for

(05:46):
her to want to be to magnetize, to be magnetized. Look,
I will be magnetized to you when you do the
dishes without me having to fucking ask you to do
the dishes. I will be If you want me to
like feel more supported and to what open and blossom
to you, then then stop leaving piles of your shit
all over the house and making me be your mother

(06:08):
to ask you to pick them up. So, like, one
of the biggest things that makes my yoni dry up
like a fucking raisin. I'm gonna cuss for this, like seriously,
is when I have to be your mommy. When I
have to be your mommy. And I don't know if
this is specific to like gen X men specifically, And

(06:28):
I'm gonna also say gen x white men, because you
know I'm by racial, so you are always gonna get
racial dynamics in this conversation because I have to fucking
live them. So if I have to live them, then
you get to hear about them. Right. So I will
say that growing up when my my black boyfriends, like
black mamas will keep their house in shape, and my

(06:51):
black boyfriends did not need to be told that they
needed to do the dishes, vacuum the carpet, da da
da dah. Like I would come over to their houses
and it would be absolutely spotless, impeccable, and my boyfriends
would be like, well, I'll call you back after I've
vacuumed and done the dishes and whatever. So I have
never had an issue when I have been with black men.

(07:12):
I have never had an issue with them leaving piles
of their shit around the house. It has never been
an issue. So I'm not saying the black man can't
be message to I'm just telling you my dating experience, right.
But with white gen x men, I am forever following
you around asking you to like being your mommy. Okay,
So the number one thing, it's not about you being
more masculine or maybe it is. It's about you being

(07:35):
a fifty year old man and not a fourteen year
old boy. So let's start there. So, if your version
of masculinity does not include vacuuming, doing the fucking laundry
without me asking you to do the laundry, folding the
laundry after I've done it, like cleaning the toilet bowl,
like basic shit without me having to ask you to

(07:56):
do it, book the house cleaner if you don't want
to do it, Book the house cleaner. That like basic
daily domestic stuff really really really meets needs for support.
And this isn't just me. This is like there's articles
there's about this, about like what is it called weaponized incompetence.
There's articles about Sabrina Carpenter just released a whole ass

(08:17):
album about Manchild, and like, can you just clean up
your fucking shit so your your boomer mamas did not
do justice. They have fucked us all up, just say
it's a boomer mom thing. I watched this up close
and personal because I'm married to a white man with
a boomer mom, so I get to see how this
ship plays out, you know, and it's definitely your conditioning.

(08:40):
So so if you really want her vagina to be
an overflowing like like nectar waterfall kind of thing. Clean
up your ship. That's that's what you That is how
you need to get your pole erect. That that is
the poll that you need to like anger into is
clean up your shit. When about me having to ask,

(09:01):
all right, that's my rant? Sorry y'all. Sorry, I'll just
bleep it out if you have to.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, those are really good insights, Davie, especially because a right,
I hear you saying that it doesn't meet your needs
for respect, right and help support those things right, so
that fosters an environment where you might have feelings of
anger or resentment towards your partner, and those are not
good for connection and intimacy. But in addition to that,

(09:31):
there's also this labor component, both both your actual labor
and your invisible labor, which is going to increase stress
for the person who's doing all of that. And we
know physiologically that stress is a lebido killer and a
pleasure killer for most people. So that's another huge component
of it. It's not just about you know, how you're

(09:52):
feeling in your brain about the other person, It's also
about whether your body is able to relax into a response,
which she does talk a little bit about that with
responsive behavior, but he doesn't talk about the stress. Right now,
we're talking about the stress component of that.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Well, So what the thing is is he's focusing on like,
you have to be more rooted in your masculine and
what these like these these archaic I'm gonna say, archaic
concepts of what masculine is. So like, yeah, like boomer
moms made sure they're boys, their gen X boys were
rooted in masculinity, which causes them to not lift a
fucking finger, you know, to help to help their female

(10:28):
partners around the house. Now, I am gonna say, doctor,
doctor Erickson and I have worked through this in counseling
for many years, so we are no longer in this place.
So the heat that you are feeling for me is
not present time. Shit, we have worked through this in counseling.
But I'm just saying his mama could have saved us
a lot of money in counseling. I'm just sad. But

(10:49):
this concept of like rooting into your masculine poll when
when you hear that, guys and ladies, when you hear like, oh,
I want him to be rooted in his masculine pole.
Are you thinking about him vacuuming the house? No, no, oh,
because that's woman's work. So what I'm saying to you
is your concepts when we're talking about these kind of
like gross concepts of polarity, you know, these concepts of

(11:09):
polarity which are based on these like traditional gender roles.
When we're thinking about that, like the actual the actual
thing that you needed to be you need to be
rooted in is equity. Is equity, is shared shared relationship,
dynamic shared mutuality. Because I'll tell you, like it turns

(11:31):
me on when my husband when he does the dishes
and cleans up the kitchen and remembers to put the
dog food away, I'm like, and I when he makes
me coffee in the morning, Oh my god, that gets
me so wet. Like these acts of service, these acts

(11:53):
of service really meet my needs for support. And when
I feel supported as a badass, powerful tongue, which the
chini in the world. When I feel supported, that that
is what gives me the space to melt. That's what
gives me the space to surrender. Is when when I
got you, well I know you got me because of
what you did I don't care what you say. I

(12:15):
care what you do, and I want to see what
you do to support me. I don't want to have
to guess. I want to walk out and be like,
oh damn, he arranged all the pillows. What a beautiful
Tontra temple. I didn't have to do it myself. Anything,
I don't have to do myself. I'm gonna feel supported
when you do it, so I don't have to do it.
When I don't have to think about it, woo, that
meets my needs for support. And when my needs for
support are met, all of the stress starts to decompress.

(12:39):
And when the stress decompresses, my libido arises. And I mean,
we're off to the race as my friends. So there
we go, beautiful.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
I have a couple more thoughts about it, Okay, okay,
So I think the thing that I initially found most
disturbing about this video was that he's really distilling relationships
down shysteriatypes, right, And that's something that I find disturbing
about the polarity conversation. Just like you said a minute ago,
it distills the person down to specific set gender norms

(13:10):
that are created, you know, within the context of our
dysfunctional system, right, our white patriarchal, classist system, like our roles,
our gender roles fit within that. So, I mean, it's
entirely possible that there are people who have done lots
of self examining and they really want to fit into
these traditional, you know, masculine, feminine stereotypes for their relationship. Cool,

(13:35):
have at it, Great for you, but I don't think
that's the majority of people, right. There's a lot of
people who have all kinds of different dynamics within their relationship.
And one of the first thing that came to my
mind for me was he said, oh gosh, she said
a number of things, but one of the words that's
jumped out at me was this concept of dominance. Which, yeah,
a lot of cis women do want to be dominated.
That's a common fantasy, a common kink for many women.

(14:00):
But there's a lot a lot of women who want
to dominate, and there's a lot of men who want
a dominant woman as well as as their preferred way
of engaging with power in their relationships. So it's not
that simple as just like you're not being masculine enough
in order to let her open. Right, in most cases, Additionally.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
What masculinity is, I'm interrupting you masculine and the concept
of what masculinity is, that's the thing. Are you being
masculin depends on what your version of masculinity is. Like
my version of masculinity could be playing the piano and
you know, fucking writing poetry, like maybe that's what I
think a real man is quote unquote. So it's it
all goes into like a very specific demographs graphics idea

(14:44):
of what is masculine, maga, masculine, shall we.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Say, yeah, yeah, exactly, And those many of those stereotypes
for many people are are violent, right, They don't support
their true connection, their ability to really be fully present,
especially for men to be fully present in their emotions
and be fully present in their emotions with their with
their partner as well, which is another factor in being

(15:10):
able to connect in order to have a great sex life.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
So yeah, and then like on the feminine side, there's
this societal standard for us in that stereotype that women
can't know about their sexuality.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Right.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
You talk about this in your book Shake Your Soul Song,
This Walt Disney syndrome where you know, good girls don't
know about their sex and don't know how to how
to please themselves or enjoy sex in the bedroom. It's
all up to the man, whereas women who do they're
just sluts and whoors and you know, so we can't
we can't fuck with them. So it plays into that,
which is violent for both parties. Right, Do you have

(15:49):
anything else to say about that?

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Nope, nope, nope, right off.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Tell the other thing that really jumped out at me
is Jesus Christ. Both people in a room relationship are
responsible for the relationship. It's toxic to assign one person
or another person, you know, specific aspects of a relationship. Again,
there can be agreemance within a relationship, right, so like

(16:15):
one person might agree to be more responsible in this
way or that way, but it's not appropriate to just
assign people their responsibilities based off of their sex or
gender as well, and even if you do, it's still
both people's responsibility to care and tender for their relationship.
And your sexuality in a sexual relationship is a primary

(16:36):
factor in the reason you're in a relationship with that person,
so both of you need to be engaged in that
and having conversations with that. And it also links into
how few people in this country have learned how to
communicate about their sexuality and communicate with their partner about
their sexuality and about what's going on for them and

(16:58):
to troubleshoot.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, and I and I would say I would
add to that everything you said one point on, on
point point on and on point, And I would also
say what rises for me is like like, rather than
looking at the polarity of your relationship, look at the
health of your relationship. Is your relationship healthy and functional?
Cause you know, I was telling Elena before we before

(17:22):
we started recording, the people that I've come encountered in
the field over seventeen years who are the most focused
on these polarity dynamics are also the most propensity for
gas lighting and predatory behavior. I'm just gonna say, and
the and the schools for TNTRA schools that I've encountered,
or TANTRA teachers that I've encountered that are really into this,

(17:45):
you know polarity thing. A polarity has nothing to do
with actual Tentra lineage based entre. I mean, go google
polarity and like, real Tentra doesn't fucking exist. It's a
totally a neotontra concept. And as we've said, neo TNTRA
is a result of colin isa and violence, and so
it carries that, it carries the violence of colonization within it.

(18:06):
And so again when it comes to polarity, there's no
there's no real authentic tunture teachings on fucking polarity, and
the neo TNTRA teachers on polarity. Honestly, what I've seen
is there's a propensity as I've said, for gas lighting,
psychological abuse, and predatory behavior, or there's complaints against the

(18:26):
teachers or the schools for predatory behavior. So I mean,
you know, actual TNTRA focuses on union and balance. That's
what it focuses on. It focuses on union, uniting duality,
transforming the concept of duality by recognizing the inherent union

(18:48):
of all expressions of life. And it focuses on balance.
We all, as human beings have masculine and feminine In fact,
we've got masculine channels and feminine channels in the body,
and the important thing is for them to be balance.
That's the point of your tenttr yoga practice. When you're
doing energy body yoga, you are balancing your energy bodies.
So sometimes your masculine channels need more energy, or sometimes

(19:10):
your feminine channels need more energy, or maybe your whole
freaking energy body needs more energy. Right, it's not about
this dualistic dynamic. That's another way another thing about neo.
Why you know it's not real contra because real tunture
is about dismantling duality, not reinforcing it. And this whole
conversation about polarity is reinforcing concepts of duality, I mean.

(19:31):
And then this brings us, this brings us to this
brings us to the topic that we're gonna talk about today,
which is can you practice contra as the same sex couple? So,
of course, so I'm gonna circle back to that in
a moment of the of course why. But what I
want to point to, what I want to point to
right now is like, historically, contric Buddhism was about transforming

(19:56):
rigid concepts of rigid structures, rigid structures of hierarchy and
rigid structures, rigid structures of patriarchy and male versus female
and duality and even heterosexuality. There's historical record and contrac
Buddhism of non binary and trans people, and they were

(20:16):
referred to as pondicas or pondiicas wherever you put that emphasis.
And so so these were these were considered to be shamans.
These were considered to be like potent, powerful, kind of
magical beings that that had both that weren't necessarily masculine
or feminine, but were a beautiful fusion of both. And
so they were viewed as like precious and rare and

(20:39):
like again like unicorns, so to speak, because they walked
in all worlds. Right. So, so that that is a
that is a historical reference in contried Buddhism to the
celebration and the upliftment of intersex, non binary, trans and
even homosexual individual It was people who did not fit

(21:01):
into the rigid binary roles were considered fucking magic.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
So when it comes to to to TNTRA for same
sex people, you know, something that that causes a lot
of confusion that that Elena is going to talk about
in just a moment is this concept of polarity of
these rigid, you know, masculine feminines. So it that leaves
a lot of people out of the conversation who don't

(21:33):
fit in, you know, and that fucking kills me, because,
you know what, you're not supposed to fit in. Real Tontra.
Those of us that don't fit in, we're We're We're
the magic sauce. We're Tontra was not fucking mainstream. Tontic
Buddhism was not mainstream. It was underground. It was subversive,
it was transit transgressive, it was fucking revolutionary. We were

(21:55):
not we were not. The Tontic Buddhists were not the
people at the top of the you know, top of
the food chain. They weren't the fucking Brahmins. They were
the underground. They were the outcasts. They were the untouchables,
many of them. So that is the roots of contraed Buddhism.
So so when it comes to you as a as

(22:17):
a non non normative, heteronormative and nonsense gender person looking
at at TNTRA and neotontrin feeling unincluded, you're right, you're
you're right. But real TNTRA does include you. Real TNTRA
actually fucking celebrates you.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Okay, okay, thank you, Damian. That's beautiful. Yeah, and you
talked a lot about about what I was going to
talk about which is this concept of polarity and neotantra
that that's so prevalent in that community, and that that
can cause real pain and suffering for a large portion
of the population both you know, as you said, uh,

(22:57):
same sex couples, people of who are our gender diverse,
and again it also is violent to people who are
cysts as well because it puts those in those specific
gender roles, right, And as you were talking about, like,
it doesn't really have anything to do with real tntra,

(23:17):
So you're probably going to go more into this. But
in our lineage of practice, we define mantra as weaving
light with sound and form. Right, That is the mantra
that we do. It is energy work, right, and everything
else that we teach is to go along with that
energy work. It's not the tntra. The tntra is the
energy work itself. So we we've light and sound with form,

(23:40):
the light being our visualization, the sound being launchic syllable,
the form being our bodies.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
And I think in this instance the person may be
talking more about the sexual practices because they are specifically
often linked to the concept of tantra, especially in neo tntra.
But that and up self is not tantra. So you
can anyone. Tantra's for anyone, right, you can one hundred
percent learn this energy body yoga, learn it, synthesize it,

(24:10):
and receive profound healing from it. And also the sexual
teachings that we offer are also for everyone. So there
there really isn't a you know, a hierarchy or a
differentiation between you know, practicing it as an individual, practicing
it in a sist heat couple, or practicing it in

(24:32):
a homosexual couple or any other congomeration of of of
queer coupledom.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
And so, because Elena and I actually are practice under
the umbrella of lineage and have a root lama and
do actually practice authentic lineage based Tibetan Buddhist tntra, we
approach tntra. She was saying from a perspective of there
being sexual tontra and on sexual contra, right, there's both.

(25:02):
And basically, when it comes to sexual tntra, you when
you're practicing real tenttra and not just you know, sexual
healing methods. Essentially, when you're practicing real contra, real sexual tentra,
authentic sexual tentra, what you are doing is applying your
non sexual practice, your non sexual energy body yoga practice,

(25:23):
to your sexual activity. The beautiful thing about cultivating non
sexual contra practice is you very quickly begin to realize
that you can make any activity tontric by your attention,
your intention, your focus, and your awareness. No matter what
you're doing, it can become a tontric practice because real,

(25:47):
authentic TNTRA is an internal practice. It's something we're doing
internally with our awareness, with our attention, with our focus,
with our mantra, with our chanting, with our breath. You
can practic this tntra walking. You can practice tntra doing
the dishes. You can practice contra making sweet love with
your partner. You can practice tnture when you're pooping. In fact,

(26:09):
we have a video on I think on our YouTube
channel and maybe our Instagram channel. I think it got
taken down Instagram. We can post it again, but it's
definitely on YouTube because I was watching it the other day.
You can practice tntrare while pooping. You can chant mantra
and do energy body yoga while you're sitting on the
toilet pooping. And in fact that it was an instruction
from my lama, so there's not one moment when you

(26:30):
are practicing authentic tntra. Not one moment is wasted, Not
one moment of your human experience is wasted. You can
practice tonture with every breath if you want to, and
at a certain point, you get to a point where
everything you do is your tenttra practice. Whether you're intentionally
doing it or whether you're living it as an embodied experience,

(26:54):
everything that you do becomes tntra. There's no separation between
your tntra and your life. So that's that's that's the
that's the goal of practice, so that you can actually
leave practice away. The analogy give like leave your practice behind.
The analogy is like if you're crossing a river. You
need a raft to cross the river. It's a tool,
but once you get to the once you get to

(27:15):
the other side of the river, you're not going to
carry your raft with you, right, Well, that's the dharma.
That's that's tantra practice. Is that you use it to
get to a certain point and then when you are
actually firmly anchored in that level of realization, you don't
need to continue carrying it with you, or maybe you
just actually carry one stick you change the shape of
the raft and turned it into a walking stick to

(27:36):
help your journey now, to help this leg of your journey. Right,
So it changes your relationship to the actual practice changes
as your realization as a result of your practice evolves
and changes and grows. So so yeah, so we're talking
about tntra for same sex people. That's a lot. So
here we go. So, so the non sexual I think

(27:56):
we've we sufficiently answered, Yes, the non sexual yoga practice.
As long as you are human and you have attention
and the desire and the intention, you can practice non
sexual contra. Can you, as the same sex couple, apply
your non sexual tentra yoga practice to your sexuality? Absolutely?

(28:17):
Of course, Why would it be any different for you
than anybody else? Of course you can. You're a human being.
Your genitals are irrelevant when it comes to tantra. I
mean they're relevant because you want to know how to
how to make them work. You know how to make them,
how to make them cream. I want to say, you know,
I don't know what I was thinking of Princess Saga, right,
how to make them generate the nectar that they are

(28:40):
that they're designed to generate, So they're important that way,
but they're irrelevant in terms of like they're just different parts,
you know, like of course, of course, of course, of course,
of course you can you can apply your non sexual
practice to your sexual practice. And are there specific methods
sexual methods for same sex people? Yes, actually there are,

(29:05):
I could take them with it. Didn't think for a moment. Yes,
actually there are differences if you are in the same
sex couple as with lotus, which is we're gonna say
vagina or volvan vagina we're gonna reference as lotus. And
then if you're in the same sex couple with a vazra,
a divine thunderbolt of wisdom or otherwise no as a penist,

(29:27):
but I prefer divine thunderbolt of wisdom, and I would
guess y'all do too, whether your divine thunderbolt of wisdom. Yes,
you are going to run the energy body yogas slightly
differently when you are in when you are partnered with
with with this with the same sex and when we
do our Tuntra Couples are Tantra Coaching for Couples Tuntra
Healing for Couples program in twenty twenty six that will

(29:49):
be open for heterosexual and same sex couples, and so
we'll give those instructions during class, like the differences in
the energy body yoga depending on if you're playing with
the same same puzzle pieces or opposite puzzle pieces. Yeah, okay,
I went on forever. Did you want to add anything
to that, Elena.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Hmmm, not at the moment.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
So s to BN s to moyben toto bien toto
bin okay. So, so why don't I go into tons?
So because I have experience and not only am I biracial,
I am bisexual, I have all the byes. I have
foots in many worlds, many different worlds, and so I
have I have had tonture with with other Lotus owners

(30:35):
and I fucking love it. That's one of my favorite
things is tontra with with with another Lotus owner. And
so I'll share a little bit about my experience in
terms of how the adjustments that that that occur naturally
is a result and how the energy flows. So when

(30:57):
it comes to when it came for me to practice
ton with women with other women a sexual contra, we're saying,
so we do the same, you know, some of the
same practices. Is like you know, looking into each other's
eyes and harmonizing the breath. So when two or more
people breathe together at the same rate, at the same pace,
their heart beats synchronized, brain wave synchronized. I'm a big

(31:19):
fan of having my heart, heart beat synchronized and my
brain waves synchronized before I try to synchronize my genitals.
I'm just saying, I'm very much a top down person
when it comes to that, or a heart down person
when it comes to that. And then when it comes
to the yoga breathing practices, yeah, energy flows, and you know,
absolutely for anyone, anyone who's bisexual, those of us who

(31:42):
are bisexual, and I happen to believe that if we
removed or if our cultural conditioning looked a different way
than it does today, I am a believer that I
would say I truly believe that at least eighty percent
of the population is bisexual. I really feel like bisexuality
is normal. I do. It's like it seems it's like,
I mean, if you think of when your children and children,

(32:03):
don't you know, they're they like they play with each
other's genitals, they'd look at their own genitals like I mean,
anyway that's my personal opinion. I know, and I've seen
it elsewhere, but I just can't remember where.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Uh yeah, I think many sex educators believe that people
fall on a spectrum, right. I think Kinsey was the
first person to talk about that spectrum when he invented
the Kinsey scale, at least in the United States.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
So yeah, yeah, and I love that, and I love
that idea of a scale. I'm not a big fan
of Kinsey myself, bless his heart, but bless their heart, whatever,
but I do love the idea of a scale because
you know, and I would also say in terms of
the scale, like that's not static, because there's certain times
in our life that we may be more inclined one
way or the other. Like I've the lifetimes that I've

(32:49):
lived just in the last two years, much less, you know,
the last fifty years, Like I'm not the same person
fifty years later that I was though before. So so
I will say that my my sexual orientation, or I
would say my sexual movement in the world, not necessarily orientation,

(33:09):
but how I choose to move in the world sexually
has evolved tremendously, and I've been more inclined towards you know,
homosexuality and other client and more inclined towards heterosexuality at
different points in my life, but definitely fluid in that term.
So speaking from my experience practicing contru with with many women,

(33:29):
I mean it just for those of us, says I
was going to say, who are bisexual. There is a
difference in the way the energy flows when you're when
you when you're playing with somebody who has the same
genital anatomy, like, there is a different quality and which
is part of why we do that. It's a different,
you know, flavor of food, so to speak. It's a
different different, different taste, different flavor, just like with every

(33:53):
person we engage with sexual sexually. Every there is a
difference based on the sexual anatomy. Absolutely a different quality
and a different energetic exchange. And what I found really
notable is over time, so when I was predominantly in
relationship having sexual intimacy with women predominantly so like not

(34:18):
eighteen to ninety percent of my sex was happening with
another Yoni owner, another Lotus owner, another woman, the channels
in my energy body actually adapted to accommodate that. So
when I'm having and this don't. I haven't had an
opportunity to gauge this on other people's bodies. So maybe

(34:40):
we can do a study of, you know, tracking energy
channels and seeing how they line up and seeing how
they shift and change when we're making love with different people.
But when I was having sex predominantly with vajras with men,
my channels in my like my down'd avoiding wind channels,
and my channels and my lower end we pointed predominantly

(35:01):
downward to meet the penetration. Right, So the channels like
coming down my cervix and just like in my whole
lower area. And we're not talking I'm not talking about
in the nerve pathways. I'm talking about channels, my energy channels.
So the energy channels can move and change and adapt
to meet the needs to help us digest and metabolize
the energy that we're receiving from our environment more effectively.

(35:23):
And so when I was having sex with heterosexual men
a lot, or you know, my number one food source,
shall we say, my energy channels were pointing downwards to
accommodate the penetration. When I was predominantly having sex as
with women as my predominant food source for sex, my

(35:43):
channels actually shifted so that they were pointing out like
towards the anterior of my body, so no longer downward,
but more anterior in order to receive more of a
full whole body exchange as opposed to just the exchange
from the lingam. So that was very interesting because it
definitely changed the quality of my orgasm and it definitely

(36:04):
changed the quality of my of my sexual experience because
it was moving through like different channels of the energy body.
And then you know, when I when I was no
longer having having sex as often with women, the channels
and I'm predominantly monogamous in a heterosexual dynamic, my channels

(36:25):
are all, you know, pointing downward to receive, to receive
my partner again, my male partner again. So that was
my experience of kind of shifting with the energy channels
and how they can how they will adapt to or
can adapt to to to receive the love essentially the medicine,

(36:47):
the food, sex, sex and food sex and nourishment. Right
to receive the nourishment that we're receiving from our partners,
regardless of how that energy is being put into our bodies,
whether be through you know, physical penetration or you know,
surface activity or just a different kind of penetration, because
I was still being penetrated, but I just wasn't being

(37:09):
penetrated by a penis when I was with women, I
will say I was still being penetrated, just not with
a penis. I was being penetrated with you know, other
things anyway, So that's along, That's a lot. So okay,
what do you think about that, Lena?

Speaker 1 (37:23):
I think that's beautiful. And in addition to that, I'll
say that, you know, so the sexual practices that we
teach that are often linked to tantra but aren't necessarily tantra,
those are also applicable in the same sex, you know,
female female couples. So things like contra union, breathing, sexual

(37:45):
communication practices, yoni massage, partner orgasmic awareness practice. These are
all things we teach that are beautiful, connective, pleasure expanding,
juicy couple practices, and your genital makeup has nothing to
do with whether you can practice them or not.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
And what we love to do is give you information,
educate you about your genital makeup, like for for whether
you have a lotus or lingam or combination like the
more we know about how our genitals function, the better
they can function. Just like the more you know about
what's under the hood of the car, you're gonna be
able to make that car work a lot better. Same, same, same,

(38:28):
So your genitals are important in terms of understanding how
they function for optimal performance. Shall we say it. I
don't mean, you know, performance in a bad way, but
just to you know, optimally bring you bliss because you're
designed for bliss. Your body, your your body is designed
for pleasure. And that's just a fact. Like pleasure is
our is our is our compass, it's our guidance system.

(38:49):
If it feels good, we want to move towards it.
If it hurts, we want to avoid it. That's like
that's what fucking kept us alive for millennia, right, A
very simplified version of that. But your your genitals are
built for pleasure, So understanding how they function to bring
you and your partner the most, the most pleasure is
really important. Education And just want to reiterate again that

(39:10):
we are going to be So if you're thinking, well,
how can I learn all this awesomeness, well, guess what.
In February of twenty twenty six, we're going to open
registration for a Tontra for couples. I think we're calling
it Cultivating Sacred Intimacy Tentre Healing for Couples program that
myself and doctor Ericson and Elena and maybe her partner
going to be teaching you. So registration for that is

(39:32):
going to open in February. February of twenty twenty six,
So make sure you are at Holistic Sexology Institute dot
com and signing up for notifications. If you just signed
up for your Sex's Medicine podcast day weekly doses in
your inbox every day, you will get notifications of any
of our programs. But we are going to be teaching
a Tentra Healing for Couples program in twenty twenty six.

(39:54):
Registration opens February. Fingers crossed. You know, we were going
to do that before before the how week week before
the house burned out. No week after we'd registration, we're
uping registration for the Tatrina thing for couple. So we
had to do it from Costa Rica, y'all. We had
to do it from Costa Rica.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Okay, are we ready to talk about men?

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yes? Let's talk about so. Yes, let's talk about So
we're going to talk about you men, you sist gender
men and your beautiful beautiful lingams and and you and
same sex practicing tantra as the same sex couple, because
y'all get left out of this conversation. You do, and
we want we want you to know that that we
see you and we celebrate you, and you are a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful,

(40:39):
beautiful expression of life. So go on, Elena, give it
to them.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yes, thank you so much, Davey. So, I have trained
a number of queer, queer men and queer people who
have lingams and penises in my time as a Tantra
teacher and educator, And yeah, Tantra is absolutely applicable to
people who have penises in the same sex relationship as well.

(41:03):
So just starting again with talking about the energy body
yoga of TNTRA. You know, I think what I really
like to presence is that the contrac practices are heart
centered practices. So when we're doing this energy body yoga,
we're always beginning and ending in the heart right, which
really deepens our connection to ourselves. And when practice in

(41:25):
partnership deepens our connection to our partner, as well, which
is just you can't go wrong with that, right, Like,
this is the gold standard for relationships when your hearts
are are purely beautifully connected to one another. And yeah,
when we do that, our relationships get better, We communicate
more clearly, we give each other more grace, We heal

(41:47):
our wounds. And especially for men, men who have been
socialized in men are people with penises who've been socialized
in this country. One of the first things that happens
to them as they are separated from their connection. They
are separated. They're severed violently from their emotions, and they're
not loud to feel their emotions. And this gets in

(42:09):
the way of connecting deeply with others and in their
partnerships as well. So when we you know, refocus both
with these energy body practices and these these sexual or
connection based practices we're giving ourselves, they're they're they're getting
the opportunity to heal that that connection wounds and to yeah,

(42:32):
to rediscover it, right, to rediscover that connection and that
that emotional literacy and uh what sort of vulnerability?

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Thank you? Yeah, I love it, and I love that
you brought it back to Tontra is about a heart
to heart connection that that is like, that is what
sexual tntra is rutans with all tentras rooted in, but
particularly sexual tentres having that loving, open, present, spacious connection
with one of them. So that's the key, that's both

(43:02):
the goal, that's both the practice and the goal.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah. Yeah, And in terms of sticking with the energy
body and kind of going along the lines of what
you were talking about, Datie, there are some differences about
how you know, men who are in same sex union,
how their energy channel would relate to one another. So
when we're placing our central channel in this tradition, it

(43:29):
runs through the center of the body in front of
the spine, from the soft stop spot on the top
of the head and ends in the parandium. So what
we often talk about is, you know, when people are
in heterosexual union, there's an offshoot of the central channel
that goes through the penis to the tip of the
lingam and there's an offshoot of the central channel that
goes from the central channel into the cervix. So when

(43:52):
people are in union in a heterosexual couple, we've got
that direct connection between the two central channels, so you're
kind of connected and having this little bit of of
a merge with each other's energy bodies. Right, And when
we're doing this with men in same sex couples, the
same thing happens. It's just slightly altered.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Right.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
So in that case, if two men are having anal sex,
there's an offshoot you can access to the central channel
through the anus itself, and of course there's still a
central channel off shoot through the penis. So they're having
that same level of connection, they're just coming at it
from a different points in the body.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
And the anus or the rectum is where the downward
avoiding winds arise. Okay, pardon my chihuahua. If you can
hear him in the background, I'm not sure if you can.
I can hear him. He's driving me crazy. But the
downward avoiding winds actually arise in the rectum. And so
this is one of the reasons that anal pleasure is

(44:54):
so so profoundly important for all anus Ownershi, you meant
and this owners, but for all of us is having
anal pleasure can help remove and dissolve any obstacles in
the downward voiding winds, allowing those downward voiding winds to rebalance.
It can improve your bowel function having any massage and

(45:16):
anal pleasure, So your anus is a the second highest
concentration of pleasure sensitive nerve endings, if there is such
a thing. And also too, it's also the home of
where the downward voiding winds arise in the body, and
so it's a very very important energy center to pay
attention to.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, yeah, and to build off of that because we
when we define orgasm in our tradition from the energy
body perspective, we talk about it being this moment where
our downward our downward voiding winds brush the central channel.
So you're also going to be expanding your capacity to
experience different kinds of orgasms when you're keeping up with

(46:00):
the health of your downward avoiding winds.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yep, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, So.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
That's the energy body component. So talking about some of
the methods that are often thought of as contra but
aren't necessarily contra, but go along with everything we're doing,
there are also some other things that are of great
benefit to men in same sex relationships. So, uh, just
like with women, we just talked about things like contric union, breathing,

(46:28):
and sexual communication. In this case, linga massage and couples
o EP. These are all beautiful practices which have no no,
no need for specific genital makeup. Additionally, men who are
tontric often engage in semen retention practices as well, and

(46:50):
this is good for CIS men as well as homosexual
or queer men. I think one of the main distinctions
I want to make here, and the reason we're bringing
it up, is because seman retention is often framed for
men as a way to last longer for her, right.
So that's a very prominent way that people market semen retention,
and so sometimes, you know, queer men and people with

(47:10):
penises feel really left out of that conversation, like why
would I practice this if this is just lasting longer
for a female partner?

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Right?

Speaker 1 (47:18):
But there are many many other benefits to semen retention
that have nothing to do with that. So there's increased vitality,
so you're retaining chi when you're retaining your semen, so
you're retaining that juicy vital essence, which is going to
improve your health and your well being just overall. There's
also been some studies that indicate that as you retain

(47:39):
your semen, that increases your testosterone. Some of your androgens
in the body, those hormones, and then it also helps
you to what am I trying to say here, seman
retention also helps you with your cultivation of multiple orgas

(48:00):
as well. So if you didn't know this, men and
people with penises, they can have more orgasms than just
an ejaculatory orgasm. They have a huge breath of orgasmic capacity,
different juicy flavors that come from different parts of their
body and are expressed differently, right, And semen retention is
one of the kind of like one of the portals

(48:22):
to getting there for many men. So that's a definite
benefit for all men. And then it's also really wonderful
for them to learn how to slow down and connect
and connect to their pleasure and to connect to their
partner during their sexual practice as well.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Beautiful, beautiful beauty. I mean, the thing is TNDRA is
like real tra authentic linage based ENTRA is for humans.
It's for humans. It's for humans to help us have
a better human existence, a better human experience, and yes,
to realize enlightenment, but not at the expense of our humanity. Right,

(49:06):
That's the thing. As I move, as I realize more
and more Mahamoudra consciousness like just open void, spacious awareness
in my you know, in my awareness, in my consciousness
like the goal that like, enlightenment is not divorcing ourselves
from our humanity. Enlightenment is about being fully human and

(49:29):
being internally free, internally liberated from suffering. And you know,
we are often our own worst enemies, as you know,
this culture conditions us to be, and those of us
with CPDSD are definitely our worst enemies. Right. So so TNTRA,
the tontric enlightenment is true is about ending suffering, ceasing

(49:51):
suffering for all humans and all beings ultimately, but particularly
for all humans. So for you, in regardless of w
relationship orientation, how how you find love, regardless of who
with whom, and how you find love, it's your birthright.
It's your birthright to know how to heal. It's your

(50:15):
birthright to understand your energy body if you're if you're
attracted to that and drawn to that, it's your birthright
to understand how your energy body feeds and nourishes your
physical body, and how you can use connection and pleasure
to increase the energy in your body and to heal
and transform. So so yeah, So hold on one second,

(50:39):
I'm going to pause this. Yes.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
So the other thing that I wanted to mention about
contract practices is the way that our specific orientation to
the practice is performed. It really creates a situation where
we're allowed to process a lot of trauma from our bodies, trauma, judgments,
all these nasty things that get stuck in ourselves. Right,

(51:06):
And the way that we practice, we have this beautiful
meshing of the energy body work of the five elements
with our sexual practices but also our somatic practices, right,
So somatic cor regular practices but also somatic sexual healing practices,
and those two practices together I find create kind of
like a bridge inside the body, right, because we're working

(51:27):
on all of the blocks or obscurations or breaks in
our energy body from the inside out. When we're working
in our central channel with elements, 're healing that way,
and then when we're applying the somatic sexual healing principles,
we're working essentially from the outside in to release trauma
where it lives in the body. So that specific orientation

(51:49):
allows us to do so much in terms of moving
towards health and well being. And you know, I just
think about all of the ways that it has helped
our students for the years transform judgments that they've had
about themselves. And so I think a lot about like
transforming judgment one might have about being queer, right, like

(52:12):
internalized homophobia, transforming that in oneself, or judgments one may
feel about engaging in anal sex or Yeah, just all
of the trappings of our that our culture puts upon
queer people. That's something else that can be helped and
transformed to a contric practice.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, just thank you for that. That's so beautiful. Yeah,
because our culture teaches us, you know, if we don't
fit into these very narrow boxes, teaches us to hate ourselves,
that there's something wrong with us, that we're deficient, that
we're queer. I mean even the word I don't use
the word queer because when I was coming up into
early adulthood, like in the nineties, right, I graduated high

(52:55):
school in ninety two, and I started like going to
gay bars like hit eighteen at like three ninety fourths
unlike that, graduated fromhigh school early, and so and I was,
you know, go to gay bars and hang out with
the gay folks, and like we didn't call ourselves queer
because queer was a slur. That was a bad word.
It was like gay was was like that was a
happy thing. Right, So for me, the word queer is

(53:18):
still like carries the weight of that shame because it
was a curse word. It was a cuss word when
I was you know, coming up and coming up in
the day. So it wasn't it wasn't the word of
liberation that it is now twenty years later, twenty five
years later. So so yeah, like that's such a beautiful point.
Is Like, that's the thing about tontras, as we said
to be to begin with, it's it's not about reinforcing

(53:41):
polarities and opposites and duality. It's about finding that point
of union and also creating balance, creating balance where there's imbalance,
because that's the key to wellness is balance. And so
if we are holding on to this, this this distorted
constant of self that we are somehow wrong and bad

(54:03):
because we don't fit into the magabox, so to speak,
that is an imbalance. That's an imbalance in our psyche,
and that is part of this purification and this healing
that can occur through authentic lineage based huntra, which we
are still teaching, y'all. We're just not certifying in it,
but we are still teaching it, and we have, oh
my god, so many incredible certified practitioners that you can

(54:25):
choose from. You can see them on our website Holistic
Sexology dot com. We're very proud of everybody who has
achieved their certification because it was no joke, and we
are still teaching these methods. Elena and I are still
laying it down and our instructors are still laying it
down for your personal healing. We're not going to take
that away from you. Yeah, yay. So I think the

(54:48):
last thing I want to say on this topic before
we close out is I just want to say that
that for those of us who don't fit in the box,
and for those of you who do identify as queer, trans,
non binary, homosexual, however you identify, I am sorry that
you have not found a home in neotntra. But let's

(55:08):
also just recognize that once again that the roots of
neo Tantra are rooted in colonialism, and there isn't space
for us in colonialism. They tried to fucking wipe us
out right, So I'm just saying, so that's why know
where it comes from. But there is space for you
and authentic lineage based entra, not just our tentra, but
tntra in general. There is space for you and in

(55:29):
real tntra because real entre is for humans. It's for
human beings to actualize their full human potential, which is
ultimate realization. Yeah, yeah, all right, anything else to Slena.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
No, that was so wonderful and juicy.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
Thank you so much, Davie, Thank you Elena, wondering to
empowers activate. So I'm so grateful and so delighted to
be doing this with you. I love, I love the
wisdom and the essence and the presence and the potency
and the power that you bring. Really really grateful. I'm
grateful to have worked with you for the last you know,
ten years, intimately and intensely and through many many obstacles.

(56:12):
So anyway, that's my love note for Lena. Y'all can
leave leave some love notes for Lena in the comments.
Thank you so much for all your comments. Thank you
so much for all your comments. I'm gonna say it again,
thank you so much for all your comments. We love
responding and thank you. I mean it just it uplifts
us and brings us so much like encouragement. Encouragement when
we know that you like it and we know that

(56:33):
we're like serving you up some good, delicious food, it
makes me want to cook in the kitchen, makes us
want to cook in the kitchen. So thank you really.
Oh yeah, ah, they's got one more.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Oh and do you want to talk about questions at two?

Speaker 2 (56:45):
If? Yeah, yeah, so send us your question so you
can send us your questions at Holistic Sexology Institute dot com.
That's our new website, Holistic Sexology Institute dot com. You
can also, if you aren't already on our Instagram page,
go you our instat ground page Institute of Holistic Sexology
and you can dm us questions, or you can leave
a question on one of our comments and we'll pick

(57:06):
it up. We'll scoop it up. It's best of you.
Dm us questions though, uh so they don't get missed.
We don't want to miss any questions because they're important
and they're valuable and we want to answer them for you.
So dm us your questions on Instagram. Also send us
your questions at Questions at Holistic Sexology Institute dot com
and we're so excited to answer them, and we'll either
answer them on an episode or we'll answer them on
an Instagram video. I had a really good one that

(57:27):
I did. I think last weekend, we had a beautiful
question come in about a transgender woman wanting to know
about if practicing seminarytention you know, is a thing, it
would be a beneficial for them as they you know, transition.
And so there's a wonderful answer to that question, because
these are important things to know, as you know, with

(57:48):
different body parts and different orientations, and how is how
is this how is this energy body yoga going to
affect you both energetically and physically, We need to know this.
We need to know all right, my friends, thank you
so much. We're gonna sign out. See you next week.
Make sure you like and subscribe, Like and subscribe, comment,
hit the notification bell all the things Spotify YouTube or

(58:10):
Spotify iTunes YouTube. That's where we're at. Instagram check us out.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
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(58:46):
at Holistic Sexology Institute dot com. Thank you so much
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