The Historical Roots of Neo-Tantra

Join Devi Ward Erickson and Relationship Coach and practitioner of ​​​​Kashmir Shaivism, Mel Cassidy, as they discuss the historical roots of Neo-Tantra in the West.
In this episode, find out:
*The importance of lineage in authentic Tantra
*The signs and symptoms of not practicing Tantra within a lineage
*The sinister roots of Neo-Tantra
*How “sex magick” started as ritualistic abuse of underage boys and girls and how it is NOT in any way related to authentic Tantra.
*How to be an ethical practitioner of Neo-Tantra
Join us for a joyfully expressive interview in which we are sure to press many Neo-Tantra buttons!

Thank you for listening to Sex Is Medicine! We appreciate YOU! :-)

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See you next week!
With Love,
Devi and Alaina

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Sex's Medicine, your number one resource for holistic
sex education. I'm Davey word Ericson, and I invite you
to join me every week for another enriching and powerful
conversation about the intersection of sexuality, spirituality, pleasure, and personal growth.
Each episode of Sex's Medicine is dedicated to awakening your

(00:23):
heart and mind to the true purpose and power of
human sexuality. Please join me on this journey of self
discovery as we explore the art of using pleasure as
medicine to awaken, heal, and empower every area of your life.
Sex's Medicine broadcasts every Thursday at seven pm Pacific on

(00:45):
Contact Talk Radio Networking. You can listen to the replay
and subscribe to Sex's Medicine on Spotify, Stitcher, tune in, iTunes, iHeartRadio,
and YouTube. And now get ready for another episode of
Sex Is Medicine. Hey, everybody, welcome to sex Is Medicine.
I am your host, Ms. Davey ward Erickson, here with

(01:08):
you for another juicy and enriching episode where we explore
the intersection of sexuality, spirituality, pleasure, and personal growth. I
am here this evening with my friend and sex is
medicine alumni. Mel Cassidy of the Monogamy Detox my wonderful
polyamory expert, ethical polyamory, a trauma informed polyamory, very important,

(01:35):
And today we're going to talk about the historical roots
of neo tontra. So you hear me talk to to
talk about it quite a bit. My angst with with
the whole neotntra realm. And and Mel is a friend
of mine because she shares smmar thanks about it. And

(01:55):
the reason for that is because we were both trained
in lineage based styles of tntra. So Mel was trained
in h Hindu based style of tantra. I'm trained in
Tibetan Buddhist lineage of tontra. And so you know not
that not everything I do is Tibetan Buddhist and the
tntra that I do is rooted in Tibetan Buddhism. And

(02:17):
so both of us having being anchored literally and rooted
in these lineage based practices, when we met, it was
kind of like what the fuck is going? What is
this other stuff? So Mel is over at my house
a few months ago and we're standing by in the
kitchen by the fringe I remember this and Mel started
kicking down the historical roots of Neo Tndra and I'm like,

(02:40):
what how come? Because maybe the way neo Tontras presented
is just like, oh I went to workshop in India
and now I'm a Dondrica whatever. And so there isn't
there isn't a conversation or even general knowledge about quite frankly,
the very insidious roots of Neo Tantra. So Mel has
the down low on all of this kind. It makes

(03:00):
so much sense when you understand where this ship is
coming from, You understand why why it manifests the way
the way it manifests here in today. So uh So, Melcassidy,
thank you for joining us for this illustrious and enlightening
conversation about the historical roots of Neo Tantra. So tell
us if you're open to telling telling us the roots

(03:22):
of your lineage, because I always mispronounce it, so I
don't try to even pronounce it on like Shiva whatever
it is.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
So the the lineage that I grew up in is
one of the Tantra lineages that is not sex focused.
It definitely has uh you know, it talks about sexuality
and the sacredness of it, but it's not sex focused
and it's rooted in Kashmir Shaivism. Okay, So Kashmir Shaivism
is a particular flavor of tantra that emerged in Kashmir,

(03:50):
which is the often disputed province uh Uh in between
India and Pakistan. And there's some really incredible, beautiful teachings
in Kashmir Shaivism. It's considered to be a non dualistic
philosophy and set of practices. So rather than separating things
into binaries such as male and female, you learn to

(04:14):
look beyond that. And you know, growing up with that tradition,
Like as a teenager, I was studying Sanskrit texts. You know,
I would go to the ashram, I'd be in retreat.
I had the incredible privilege to learn from a living
master and learn from the teachers who she has empowered
to continue the teaching and you know, learning this like

(04:39):
form of tantra which is a life practice. And then
that was my experience as a teenager. And then as
an adult, I was in a relationship with someone who
was like all into tantra and I was like cool,
but wait, what are you talking about? What is what
do you, what are you talking about? Like, what you're
practicing sounds like it's gonna emphasize the duality. To me,

(05:01):
TNTRA is about transcending duality. I don't understand what's going
on here. And you know, I came out of that
relationship with a I would say some baggage around sex
because of what he interpreted contric sex to be, which
I now know is a gross misinterpretation of what the

(05:22):
certainly with your tradition teach. And I got really curious
about what is this, Like what is it that people
are talking about with TNTRA because it doesn't resemble what
I know as TNTRA. Like to me, this is a
profound spiritual practice that borders on poetic quantum physics. Like

(05:49):
and it's lineage based, right, Like I have a living
master who exists in this world. And because there is
a living lineage, that means that she can adapt the
teachings and she can make them accessible and modernize them.
But they are still rooted in that tradition and they

(06:11):
you know, we're still learning the Sanskrit, We're still learning
the origins of the tradition while also learning how to
bring them to life in the modern day. And when
I started looking at all these you know, different books
on neotontra and looking at workshops and neotontra, I mean
nobody was calling it neotantra. Then some just contra, Yeah, pondra,

(06:32):
and like, kudos to the practitioners who are doing the
work to differentiate. Yeah, who understand the appropriation that's gone on.
But looking at these TNTRA workshops and going well, who's
what lineage are you? Who did you learn this from?
Where are the origins of this lineage? And asking questions

(06:52):
like that and being met with blank expressions, and I
was like, Okay, there's something more going on here, and
I really want to know more.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, and I as I shared on my episode from
last week, and then you know, in summits and whatever
is like in terms of TNTRA, where I was coming
out of Kwait, you know, this little concentrated bubble, this old,
tiny island in the middle of the ocean. I had
very little exposure to tantra before, and so when I
was initiated, so to speak, or introduced to this, it

(07:27):
was under this umbrella of these sacred lineage based teachings
that calor Rimpochet had given to Lama Tashi and had
never given to a Westerner before. And it was all
like these secret teachings for harnessing sexual energy and using
it for healing and realization and enlightenment. And it was
it was, it was like just rooted in in this
this spiritual tradition, and it was all about using sexuality, yes,

(07:50):
for pleasure, but healing through that pleasure and realizing our
ultimate bliss nature through that pleasure. And every organism is
a glimpse of enlightenment. And you know, and it's not
just about these like physical things, and that's not about
these breath things. It's actually visualizing shit. Like when I'm
practicing deity sexual deity tantra yoga, I'm emanating as the deity.

(08:10):
I've got the whole fricking universe emanating as the deity.
I've got a heart mantra spinning, shooting rainbow light out
into all directions. I got things up, moving up and
down my central channel. Like that's complicated shit. So it's
like you got a whole orchestra going on and you're
orgasming at the same time. So all of this stuff
and it's all for you know, for elevating you know,

(08:34):
expanding and ultimately purifying everything that obscures us and blocks
us from being healthy, happy, mature human beings. That's what
I love about the way my lama teaches. He's like,
enlightenment is just about being a mature human being. That's
all it is. That's what it means. It's your birthright right.
So that was my understanding of sexual contu of my
training of sexual tantra. So I come out of this

(08:54):
little tiny island and I hit Vancouver, and all of
a sudden, it's like, you know, I'm like, hey, I
offer tantra co I'm expecting to walk people through meditations
and you know, and some sexual healing practices. And I'm
getting calls for erotic massages. Not that there's anything wrong
with an erotic massage, but it's not the same as tndra.
So I was confused. I'm like, how does entre because
my lama didn't teach me about erotic massages, Like that's

(09:18):
you know, I'm not that sensuality, neuroticism is it can't
be part of tandra. It actually is in Buddhist tantra. Specifically,
it's rich and gritty and feminine and passionate and blood
and sweat and come and drink it. And yeah, right,
it's it's hot and passionate, and it's not you know,
an hour long sensual massage, right, that's it's not the

(09:38):
same thing. So I was confused, quite frankly.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Well, and you know what kinds to mind for me
is that, I mean, I have to you know, say,
I'm not a scholar. I am just a student of
the lineage that I'm I have practiced with them. But
what comes to mind to me is the importance of
how that lineage, Like like you were saying, like people
go take a workshop, maybe not even India, maybe they

(10:06):
take a workshop in Vancouver and they're like, Okay, now
I know Tontra, And I'm like, are you kidding me?
Like you've been doing this for a year. Like every
tntra lineage doesn't matter whether you're part of a Tibetan
lineage or a Hindu lineage or or one of the
other you know, millieu of branches of tntra. You do

(10:27):
not become a Tontra master in such a short space
of time unless you have already accumulated tons of merit
in past lifetimes and so on and so forth, Like
it is a very very rare thing for that to happen.
And you know, I know in my own lineage there
are examples of people having the experience of awakening to

(10:51):
that liberation potential and mistaking that for aha, I'm now enlightened.
And then they have announced themselves as their own teacher.
And and the thing is, and like, I know, I'm
sure your lineage teaches this too, Like when you are
doing these practices without the blessing of the lineage, without

(11:13):
the grounding in the practices yourself, it actually creates sickness. Yes,
And you know, sickness is not necessarily you know, viruses
and bacteria and that kind of sickness, because those are
real forms of sickness. But this is a sickness in
the nervous system. This is a sickness and the energy
of the body.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
And you know, I think of neo tantra practitioners I've
talked to who have suddenly gotten incredibly sick and they
can't understand what's going on, and they wonder why, And
I'm like, well, maybe I don't know, I'm not an expert,
but maybe there's something here where something in your practice

(11:56):
hasn't been grounded.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
We call that practice of wrong real religion one of
the eight primary causes of illness. And so you're exactly right.
It may not manifest physically, or maybe it will, but
energy imbalances, chronic fatigue, and different forms of psychosis, yes,
emotional imbalance. It's something that I see a lot of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
I find it heartbreaking because so many people who've been
drawn to neotantra are drawn to it for good reason. Yeah, right,
Like we live in a culture that has a very
messed up relationship to sexuality, to spirituality, to self care,
to liberation, right that, like and and tntra offers solutions

(12:40):
for all of those things.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, so this event does, yes, Real contra does, yes.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
And I think Neotantra attempts to.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
And so like I, you know, I don't want to
beerate the people who are practicing this or who have
practiced or who have you know, endeavored to make their
career teaching newtntra because I think, like I want to
recognize the good intention that goes into and you know,
we're all suffering. Well you know this, this sort of

(13:13):
situation of new Tantra suffers from uh, it's maladapted origins.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, yes, thank you, And that's that's a great segue
to go into the origins. But before we dive into that,
I do want to capitalize or I want to you know,
expand upon what you were just sharing about, like not
uh whatever, vilifying those folks who practice neo tantra and
I'm in agreement. I know, I speak out about strongly,
and part of it is because it is so misrepresented
and because I am a tentra teacher, I have to

(13:41):
confront this all the freaking time, and I have to
confront you know, every interview it's like, oh, can you
talk about sex magic? There's no fucking thing is sex magic?
You language, it's focus on enlightenment. You focus on you know,
the bliss of the orgasm and you know, really sure
attachment to it. We're not manifesting fucking cards with this,
it's not that's not why the Buddha gave us these
teaching so that you could have a nice fucking car. Right,

(14:02):
So that kind of kisses me off because I have
to deal with that shit. But I do also want
to address something that is important in the field, is
that that when I'm usually talking about you know, neotntra
in negative way. I'm usually talking about, you know, the
I'm going to just be real, like the white folk
or the non people of color folks who have read

(14:22):
a book or took a workshop and are appropriating it.
What I have seen from the black women teaching tntra,
because there are some hellipotent black women out there teaching
tentra and they got what they could from the neo
Tantra world because that's all that was available. And what
I have seen them do is I have seen them
take these methods and transform them into medicine. So there's
a lot of poison that we will get into in

(14:45):
the in the realm of like you know, non people
of color neo tantra. There's a lot of poison in
that realm. And I've seen several powerful black women take
those teachings and turn them into healing practices for their
communities and for communities of color. So I do want
to say that there is beautiful alchemy that's occurring by

(15:07):
people who have the correct motivation. They're not trying to capitalize,
They're trying to bring healing to their communities with whatever
tools they have available to them. And I so admire that.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Beautifully said yeah, and on the note of the appropriation,
and we're going to dive into like how this all began.
But one of the things that I look for when
I'm like questioning is someone doing this from an authentic
place or are they doing this from a place where
they've been appropriating, is look for a conflation of different language.

(15:37):
So like was I was in a course and we're
reading a book and the author, who is a white person.
I won't name the book, but the author is in
one paragraph using Taoist terminology like yin and yang, and
then in another paragraph is using Sanskrit terminology Kundalini. And

(15:58):
I was like, whoa you're You're this is like, yes,
there is a space for integration and mixing, but you're
not contextualizing these And when it comes to using Kundalini,
this is this is the piece that hurts my soul.
Kundalini is a goddess in in the the Hindu and

(16:20):
Tantric pantheon that I know of, Like, Kundalini is her
own goddess and her own right. Sexuality is one aspect
of Kundalini shakti. It is not the totality of of
what she represents or who she is, and so many
neotontric UH texts reduce Kundalini to being your sexual energy,

(16:42):
and that reduction takes away from the experience of what
these incredible ancient teachings are wanting to convey. Yeah, so
that's a that's a specific red flag that if Kundalini
is being talked about as a rather than as a deity,

(17:04):
that that's one of those places where I'm like, hmm,
what what's going on here?

Speaker 1 (17:08):
And so thank you for sharing that, because this is
another difference in traditions when you're doing you know, lineage
based contra. So I have been confused this whole time.
I'm like, why fuck are people talking about Cundalini? Like
what is that? So I asked my law mom, like,
Lama tells you, could you talk, you know, tell me
about Kundalini's like, oh, just stay away from it. What
He's like, oh, just fire element energy. People don't know

(17:31):
how to work with it. Just just stay away from it.
So I'm like, okay, So in our tradition, Cundalini is
fire element energy. He's like, yeah, you do it. You
active me every time you do fire elementitation. It's in
every cell of your body. You got all these chances.
It's just fire element energy. People just don't know what
the fuck they're doing. So it's like, so that drives
me crazy. When I'm getting asked to do interviews and
they're like, talk about cundolinium.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
I'm like, that's from a different aspect of tradition.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
Yeah, and you don't even know what it is, So
you better call because I had no idea that Kundelini
was a goddess, right, You just want to because it's
you know, it's the trendy, it's the kitsch, it's the
it's the i don't know, the media sound bite style
of contra and it's quite marketable.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
But like the actual life essence of it, like that
right there, Kundalini in the is a goddess in that tradition.
In our tradition, it's fire element energy. And that's also
a dikini that's also a realized being, the fire element dikini, right,
And so when we're working with the fire element energy,
we are invoking the wisdom aspect of that daikini and

(18:34):
fire element is the end to do it to attachment.
It has the power and activity of magnetizing. That's where
all that sex magic bullshit comes in. Right. If your
fire element is active and strong, you're going to have
the ability to magnetize in the track. Not at the
moment of orgasm, but at every waking moment. You'll think
a thing and it will manifest. Right, because that is
the power of fire element energy in every cell of

(18:55):
your body. It doesn't just live in your genitals, It
lives in every cell. It awakens the wisdom of discernment,
It generates the quality and the energy of bliss, and
it governs our sexual reproductive system. There's this whole system
of healing associated with the fire element intelligence, not just
this groovy like, hey, awaken the serpent energy in your

(19:16):
spine and they have great orgasms. Yeah, drives me crazy.
So so let's talk about how we got here, What
the fuck happened?

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay, So I'm going to put on my history buff
hat for a second and let's just talk about like
the eighteen hundreds in England. This is specifically the British Empire.
This is the psychology we want to go into. And
this is something I'm unfortunately very familiar with because I
spent my early childhood in England and I you know,

(19:46):
they attempted to indoctrinate me in colonialism. Thankfully they failed.
But Victorian England was this I mean, you're it's the
Industrial Revolution going on, so there's a lot of social
change happening, but at the same time, there's a kind
of prudishness that has set in. You know, prior to
Queen Victoria, there had been this incredible renaissance and there

(20:09):
had been a lot of sexual openness, and for whatever reason,
maybe it was because we didn't understand how sexual diseases,
sexually transmitted diseases happened. Maybe it was just like the pushback,
you know, that that pendulum swing. Under Victoria's rule, things
became a lot more prudish, like to the point where
if a woman was showing her ankles, that was scandalous.

(20:33):
All right, you want to you saw a gentleman you liked,
you wanted to flirt with him, you'd lift your skirt
up and show him your your ankle.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh wait, can I pause you here? Though? What about
all those they weren't they were those of their boobs
all up? Like? Was that Victorian too?

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Uh? That there's I mean that that kind of comes
and goes, and that would also depend on status and
and and so forth, and there's like acceptable ways to
do that. And yeah, but yes, that was like a hypocrisy.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Because I'm get that and when I'm watching curd pieces,
I'm looking at the titties on the set. So the
ankle was concerned flirting. I don't know what they considered
the wealthy.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
And it's interesting because Queen Victoria herself apparently had a
very healthy sex life, but she was quite scandalized by
a lot of things, and so things became a little
more rigid and restricted. At the same time, Britain is
going out and colonizing the world and building its empire.
As my grandfather put it, he's like, I know why
the British had to create an empire because it was

(21:33):
so boring at home, because my Greek grandfather, that was
his commentary after visiting England the first time. And you know,
not to dismiss England. England has a lot of beautiful
nature and people, but there was this excitement about getting
to explore these completely different worlds. And you know, Europe

(21:53):
itself is you know, centuries of Christianity, which also has
its own elements of puritanical stuff in it and sexual restriction.
And so these adventurers and colonizers from Europe and specifically
from Britain arrive in the Orient. And so we have

(22:14):
to remember that back then, the Orient is just the
like blanket term that referred to everything from the Middle
East through the Indian subcontinent through to Asia. That's a
lot of the world just gets called the Orient.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
It's the non British world essentially, basically where the brown
people live. The brown people live in the Orient.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
It's the Heathens, it's the Christians. And there was a
fetishism that arose around the Orient because it's so different.
Even the fabrics are different, the way of dressing is different,
the cultural norms are completely different. People live in family

(23:01):
in a different way, the government is structured in a
different way. The religions are completely different. I mean, you're
going from monotheistic religions in Europe to these pantheistic traditions
throughout this whole Orient. Maybe not so much the Middle East,
but like once you get to India, like you've got
a whole pantheon. And that was arousing for these British explorers.

(23:29):
And so you have this fetishization of the orient I mean,
there's a picture of my Irish great great grandfather dressed
as a China man, right, And this is something that
people would do in the Victorian times. You go to
the photographer's studio and you dress up in these oriental
clothes to like, you know, this is what you do

(23:50):
for fun with your friends. And I'd be like, we
cringe at this because you're like, oh my god, that's
so terrible, and so many.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Like we're in blackface, right, it's appropriate, yes, And.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
There's this photograph of him with his buddies being like
ha ha ha, we look like Chinaman and it's just like,
oh God. So along with all this, there was this
fascination in the spirituality that was coming in from all
these different parts of the Indians of continent and Asia.

(24:24):
And you have in the midst of this a few
different white men who come along and basically start wanting
to learn. And you know what I found out about
with this information comes from a scholar called Hugh Urban,
who's written a couple of books about the origins of contras. So, like,

(24:44):
this is not research I've done on myself. I'm just
repeating what I've read and he focuses on two particular characters.
One was a fellow who nicknamed himself the omnipotent Um,
and the other was someone who you may have heard about,
a fellow called Alistair Crowley. Now Alistair Crowley's name I'd

(25:09):
encountered before. As I mentioned, I had this partner who
was really into doing contra and he was also fascinated
with Alistair Crowley. And so Alistair Crowley is seen as
this like sort of like the og white magician character.
He went and studied all sorts of esoterica and different

(25:32):
hidden spiritual paths and secret knowledge and so forth, and
then kind of like glued it all together in a
sort of Frankenstein pastiche of things. And you know, it's
not that what he studied was inaccurate, you know, like
he studied kabalistic terminology and developed a whole tarot deck
and like wrote extensively about that. But he had what

(25:55):
I would say dark motivation. And so there's a lot
of anecdotal evidence and stories that say that Alista Crowley
was using both his positional power as like the head
of a new cult, the Oto, the Order Temporalis Orientalis
and the Sacred Knowledge that he was learning from different

(26:18):
traditions to abuse people and to sexually abuse people. So
there are numerous accounts where you know, he would create
rituals where women sometimes boys too who are underage, would
be forced into sex, would basically.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Be raped, and all under the auspices of contra all.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Under the auspices of this is this contrac practice. And
so when you know people talking about sex magic practices,
that that's what they're referring to. It's this stuff that
originates from a white man, an abusive, harmful white man,

(27:00):
going and studying these sacred teachings. Like I don't know
if it's the same in your tradition, but like I
know within Kashmir Shaivism, like a student might have to do,
you know, labor and work for years before the teacher
would actually impart the sacred knowledge to them, like they'd
have to prove their worth Somehow. He'd gotten a hold

(27:22):
of the texts and didn't have a living teacher, didn't
have a living lineage to ground him, and just went
on this this path of basically stealing with practices and
then morphing them and gluing them to other things that
he was doing in order to harm.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
And so what's what's a few things are coming to
me from this. So tuntra, at least an R lineage,
is something that you do. It's not something that you
read and intellect ctualize and mentally masturbate that about it
is yoga. And so you can read one hundred fucking

(28:08):
books on tantra and know absolutely nothing about tontra because
it's not a head thing. It's not an intellectual rational understanding.
It's an embodied wisdom practice. And when you're doing authentic contra,
wisdom arises from the inside out. So like a that's
the first thing. It's like, I don't care how many
books he read. If he's reading them through the lens

(28:28):
of poison, the only thing he's going to produce is poison.
If there's no realization, then of course it's going to
be this cobbling together of this like you know, misconstrued,
misinterpreted stuff, because he has no wisdom arising. The other
thing that occurs to me is incorrect motivation. Will you
go to the hell how realms you know you're karro,

(28:52):
You will fuck your shit up if you are practicing
stay stealing shit from these traditions. And then repackaging and
repurposing it with incorrect motivation. I mean, that is the
karmic repercussions of that are extraordinary. Apparently he didn't read
that part in all the texts he was reading, or.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
He read it and thought that, you know, in his
in his grandiosity, that he was above that in his arrogance.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
So right, what you're saying right now, like this is
all the root poison of arrogance, which is a poison
which causes psychosis, which is the root poison of arrogance,
is what narcissism is rooted in, which leads to all
kinds of abuses, and this we can trace to, like, hey,
you know some of the current shit that has occurred

(29:38):
in the field of neo tantra. I mean, there are
some really well known contra schools that I'm like, I
don't know how y'all are not in jail, because the
kind of the prolific sexual abuse.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Well, and that's one of the things I look at.
I look at you know, I'm in a lot of
the same groups as you, like with sex educators and
tantra people, and and it feels like there's another call
out every week or another warning about some group or
some teacher, And you know, I follow the work of Beastcofeld.
I think they're incredible, and I'm so grateful for the

(30:12):
work that they do, researching and like sometimes going undercover
in some of these organizations. And and you know, the
the abuse in neo tantra is endemic. Yeah, And I
sit back as an observer and go, like, have y'all
looked at what might be in common here? Like like

(30:35):
maybe I don't know, I'm not an expert, but maybe
it's just possible that there is a draw towards these
abusive behaviors because the origins of this neotontra lineage, for
lack of a better term, come from a place that

(30:55):
was designed for abuse and harm.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
So let's just let's let's just nail that down and
pin it so our audience knows. So the so what
we what the television companies are calling me to do,
what Western mainstream believes is to tontra actually originated with
Alistair Crowley sexually abusing boys and men ritualistically sexually abusing

(31:25):
them and calling it tantra. That that's that that's what
that's what they're they're trying. That's that's what neo tantra.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Is yeah, wow, yeah, And and you know, I look
at all these other pieces that neo Tantra does, like
so many groups, it's like, oh, the sacred masculine, divine
feminine and all of that, and I'm like, yes, those
those are those are phenomenon.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
There's are things like we can talk about that, but
also like if we get if we get rigid in that,
you're losing the point like tntra is about transcendence. And
and you know, one of the things that I love
about the work that you do is you make it
accessible for people who are non binary, who are trans,
who don't conform to rigid gendered identities, because it's it's

(32:13):
about what what are you working with? Yeah, what does
your body have? And how are you cultivating that? And
a lot of neotantra has no space for that. A
lot of neotantra And and this is not universal that
there are some teachers who have done an incredible job
of adapting and being inclusive, but a lot of it

(32:34):
is still very cis and heteronormative. And that I see that,
and I experience that myself as someone who's clear. I
experienced that it's as part of the poison.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
That's violence.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, it's it's a form of harm, that's saying no,
we're going to polarize you, and we're going to separate you,
and and that that separation is a wounding.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, and you know where I encountered this is I'm
gonna call it a name, David Data's work. Like when
I again, when I first came out of Kawai to Vancouver,
Everyone's talking about day Dan. I'm like, well, who's his teacher?
What's his lineage? Like, I mean, Adi Da, who was
a fucking sexual abuser. That's where that you came from, right,

(33:20):
It came out of a cesspool of abuse and and
and the constant like the masculine essence of the again
that my training, my understanding was like feminine essence is
relative reality, and it's you know, the feminine energy is
what manifested form. The masculine energy is conceptual. They are
an inseparable union. You cannot have one without the other.

(33:41):
They are fucking on top of your head all the time.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
And they both exist within you.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah. Yeah, And sometimes you imagine yourself as a male
type dity, a penis deity, And sometimes you imagine yourself
with a Yoni deity and it's and and in terms
of TNTRA, who it's appropriate for is anybody with a
human nervous system. That's it. That's not your genitals are irrelevant,
Like we can give a shit. I just need to know,

(34:06):
like if I'm teaching you linga massage or Yoni massage,
you know, like do you have labia or do you
have a scrotum. That's all I need to know. But
the tungtra is for anyone with a human nervous system.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah. Yeah, So there's there's so much that's going on
in there, and I, you know, I get afraid to
speak up about it because I'm like, I don't have
these like Coentra teacher credentials. I am not a teacher
in my own lineage. I am just a student. I
just know what I know and I know my experience.

(34:39):
But it's this that that sense like when you've grown
up with something. I mean literally, like I I met
my teacher for the first time when I was two
years old, and I remember it. You know, when you've
grown up with with a practice, you can feel it
in your gut when something isn't right. And and so

(35:01):
trying to like figure out, well, what is it? And
what I find really heartbreaking is seeing so many people
moving towards it with a genuine desire. You know, they're
genuine seekers. They are looking for solutions, they are looking
for answers, they're wanting to heal themselves, and they end

(35:25):
up in this neotontra realm where there isn't the same
kind of lineage accountability, there isn't the same level of
awareness of what's actually happening. Like I mean, I've had
conversations with some entrare teachers where I'm like, you know,
I'll ask them questions about what's happening energetically in a

(35:45):
practice and they can't answer, And I'm like, well, like no, Like,
if you're teaching this, you have to have a deeper understanding,
I'm sure, And you have to be able to adapt
to where a student is at. And there is a
reason why. And these lineage practices that you and I
have that you don't like. Not everything is revealed right away,

(36:09):
Always teachings that are kept back until the student is ready. Yeah,
And and they might be imparted in person, they might
be imparted in a vision, or they might be imparted
suddenly to everybody publicly, but like you don't get everything
all at once, and so you know, there's tentra retreats

(36:31):
and conferences and things like that, and that's a lot
for the nervous system to experience. Whereas you know, what
I know through this Kashmir Shaiva is in practice, is
my experience of tantra is much more closer to somatics.
Ye is that like we're working with the nervous system,
we're working with our bodies. This is about an embodiment experience,

(36:52):
and don't push yourself, don't force yourself to go somewhere
where you're not ready, don't exhaust yourself, like you have
to tune into yourself and sin and a lot of
the neotntria environments don't seem to do that. They want
to get you high on an experience and get you
into the next experience and get you into the next experience,
and and there's this risk of like you go chasing

(37:14):
the high and and then that becomes a poison and
of itself.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, well absolutely, and again isn't isn't that? Sorry Beniyaka? Sorry,
this conversation, you can the conversation so so even even
that seeking. Well, that's an seeking an exalted experience. That's

(37:42):
the antithesis of tondre. Like that's we call those rainbow experiences.
And like if I did like, oh, you know, and
go to my lomas like, oh, I had a great experience,
He's like, great, that sounds like a nice experience. Don't
lose your focus. It's like, you know, the difference between
experience and realization, like you were talking about earlier, and
some you know, some of us Contra teachers have a

(38:02):
really incredible experience and think we're enlightened. Experience is very
different than realization. Really, experiences go away. Realization does not
realization angers in the form. Experience is a nice like
gateway drug to what's possible, but it's not the same
as realization and going to TNTRA festivals and chasing these
rain books for this exaltation. That's a path to the

(38:22):
god realm. That's not enlightenment, that's not actually realization. And
so I got distracted by the dog, So I can't
remember exactly what I was going to say, So I
guess I'll just leave it there.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, And you know, there is is there a value
in these kind of bigger retreats with tons of teachers arriving. Yes,
there's definitely going to be value in there, but I
think the way that they've gone about creating them. You know,
I've been invited to go teach it those and I
always end up thinking about it and sitting with it
and deciding not to because I feel like there isn't

(38:59):
this spaciousness to digest the practice. And my teacher talks
about like you need to have space, you need to
have that integration time for experiences, and that's slowing down,
and that's giving yourself permission to do nothing for a

(39:19):
while and that adrenaline rush seeking out the new high
that like rainbow experience that you're talking about, Like, there
isn't the spaciousness to really sit with an experience in there.
And you know, I come across a similar phenomenon when
I'm coaching people in polyamory and nom monogamy, Like there's
this kind of like addiction cycle that can happen of

(39:43):
like I need to get back into that new relationship energy,
I need to get back into that sexual space with somebody.
I need to get back into that experience and keep
cultivating it. And it's like, well, what if you actually
sit with what you have right now and really work
on integrating that first.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
I love that you said that sit with what you
have right now in integrating that first, because that's a
that's such a Western thing. That's seeking and collector you know,
just taking little bits and pieces, and that's seeking. That's
such a Western thing because we haven't actually been taught
how to just rest and be with ourselves. And that's
something exactly, it's exactly, it's decolonizing. And the other thing

(40:19):
I was going to say about like the TNTRA festivals
which I've been invited to present at as well, and
for me, it's like, you know, what would meet my
need for integrity is if they called it a neo
Tontra festival like that, you know, like like that my
needs for that's that's a big That's why I keep
calling out neotontra quite frankly, I'll just let you all know,
is because if you call it NEOTNTRA, then we know

(40:40):
what the fuck we're dealing with. But when you just
say TNTRA, it's it's a complete misrepresentation. It's just not
it's a misrepresentation. So call it NEOTNTRA and I'll shut
the fuck up. So that's all what we're asking for,
some integrity and accountability number one. Number two. The other
other thing that occurs to me is that the way

(41:01):
we we do tantra tantra is energy body yoga. That's
what we're doing. We are working directly with the energy
body for the purpose of clarifying it, purifying it, healing it,
rich enriching it, enlightening it, quite literally, and you have
to prepare the channels. You can't just boom. So I'll

(41:22):
give you an example of my own life of my
own training is like, so I was being trained by
my mentor, who was like twenty years older than I was,
had been practicing neo tantra Dallas practices, Indian based tantra
before he encountered Tibetan Buddhist nentra and that was like
missing link for him, right, And so he'd been practicing
and cultivating the energy body yoga of Tibetan Buddhist tantra

(41:43):
for five years before he trained me. So he had
a tremendous amount of potency and what he was doing
and he wanted to practice. So he was doing shit
with me, and like that he should not doing in
terms of working with my energy body. And so I
just remember very clearly, like I was, like, you know,
having all these emotional breakdowns and reactions, and the lama

(42:06):
said to him, He's like, you're doing too much with her.
Her energy body isn't prepared. You have to slow down,
you have to prepare her channels. She can't handle that.
And my mentor wanted to do this like you know,
DD yoga practice, and my Lama's like, no, not until
she's accomplished Green Tara. You cannot do this sexual yoga
practice with her until she has completed this non sexual
yoga practice, so her energy body is prepared for that

(42:28):
increase in voltage of energy. That's the beauty of practicing
under a lineage with and with a with a lama
is that you have that guidance, you have that wisdom
and that like literal enlightened understanding to look at what's
most appropriate for a student and then can help like
gauge and regulate how the information is being dispensed. And

(42:51):
so with our school, one of the things that guidance
Alamata she gave us recently because I had no idea
that five elements have never been taught the way we're
teaching them ever before. So you know, Lamatash's like go
fourth in the world and prosper and you know, but
they didn't know what was going to happen. And so
after a few years about being out here, what we're
recognizing is that the Western nervous system and energy body

(43:11):
has so much accumulated trauma in it that we're dropping
this medicine in and it's like ooh h. And not
for everybody, but for people who haven't prepared the ground,
so to speak, it can be explosive. And so Lama
Tashi has given us some suggestions for adapting and changing
and altering the way we deliver it, to ty trate it,

(43:32):
to make it, to make it potent but less overwhelmingly
so right, and so that's real Tontra Tantra is energy
body yoga. It's knowing that you're introducing medicine into your
system and that system needs to be able to absorb, digest,
and metabolize it before you add more.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
And what you're describing as a trauma informed approach, because
it's not. We don't want to overwhelm the nervous systm.
You know, I see people go to these contric magic
retreats and whatever, and there, you know, we're going to
do group masturbation and stuff like that, and that's overwhelming
for the nervous system. And when the nervous system is overwhelmed,

(44:13):
there's a kind of energetic fracturing that can happen, and
there's a loss of self that can happen in there.
That's where you know, control and manipulation can weave their
way in, and that is not a good situation for
anyone to find themselves in. And sometimes people don't even
realize that they're the one who's trying to control another person, right, Like,

(44:35):
sometimes this stuff is happening on an unconscious level, and
I think about the importance of breaking it down into simplicity.
Like my teacher has been sharing some very simple teachings
with us online recently, and one of them recent meditations,
was just about taking a step. A whole ten minute

(44:56):
meditation on taking a step and working with the awareness
of the body and the energy that's happening in the
body and visualizations to go with that and working with
you know, sacred mantra and just a single step and
to bring that level of mindfulness to a single step
felt so nourishing. And I was thinking about how, you know,

(45:21):
when I used to be on retreat at the ashram,
if people were having a mental health crisis, they were
asked to go home because you know, if you're in
a mental health crisis, this is going to be too much,
like your nervous system is already dealing with so much basically,
And then I think about how many people get drawn
into these new contra spaces when they're going through crisis.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yes, yeah, and it makes them easy like take advantage, right,
It makes it makes us easy to manipulate when we're
when we're broken seeking help. And that was me, you know,
broken seeking help, and we will do any anything you say.
We will do whatever you say.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Yeah, yeah, And and you know, I think if there's
like a cautionary thing for folks to take away from this,
it's to you know, have discernment when you are choosing
to follow a path. I mean, my teacher's teacher said,
test your guru, test your teacher, test them. Don't just

(46:17):
accept their word. Maybe they're a good teacher, but that
they're not the right one for you, right, Like test
them and also make sure that you are monitoring like
your experience of it. Don't push yourself yes into it,
and don't let anyone else push you into something that
you're not ready to explore, because I think the real medicine,

(46:39):
the real healing, happens when we slow down and don't push.
Because you know that that Western colonial mindset is what
wants to push us. It's that colonization that pushed people
out of Europe. And we have to achieve more, and
we have to learn more, and we have to do more,
and that's kind of how we get in this mess
in the first place. So we have to counteract that. Yeah,

(47:00):
And I really I hope, I hope there comes a
day where we see the new Tantra community at large
start to acknowledge what its origins are because they don't.
No one wants to talk about that. When I've brought
it up with Tantra teachers, they don't. They don't want
to talk about Alista Crowley or the Omnipotent Oom or
you know, the handful of other white guys who were

(47:22):
abusing boys and girls under the name of Tantra and
sex magic rituals. Like, nobody wants to talk about it,
And I'm like.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Why And I'm gonna invite our audience like, do do
your homework and investigate. So it's Alistair Crowley and the
Omnipotent Oom and I'm I'm gonna share the links under
this episode. I'm gonna on our blog at Authentic TNTRA
dot Co. I'm gonna share the links to those articles
that you set me because buyer beware, like we this

(47:51):
was a revelation for me. I just thought it was like, oh, people,
you know, went to India and like took stuff and
then came back. I didn't realize that it was like
rooted in Satan Satanism, Satanic ritual, like Alistair Crowley was
a satan eds.

Speaker 5 (48:05):
Right, And I mean that's like yeah, and if that's
the roots, you know, you've planted your tree in poison
roots or in poison soil, and you know, we may
we can transmute that stuff, but there's still going to be.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Poison that leeches in to that. And we just look
at the result, Like that's what my teacher says consistently.
It's like, look at the result, what are the results?
Are the results beneficial or are the results harmful? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, wow,

(48:38):
Well this is obviously something that I feel very passionate about. Yeah,
And then it's also you know, it's also I think
it's also something that causes confusion, is not just neo
TNTRA being packaged as tantra authentic tntra, which it's not,

(48:59):
but also so that in traditional contra there are so
many different lineages and traditions. Like there's scholars in Kashmir
or Shevitism they know jack all about the shank have
never heard of the Shanka Kagyu tradition at all, right,
And I like, I, you know, I'm I'm very very
focused on my tradition. I didn't know about all these
other traditions. And you know, oh they use the sex

(49:20):
choker term like awesome. I didn't know that, you know,
because we're like my little blinders. But there's like so
like the realm of traditional lineage based contra is vast
and rich.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
And because there's so many teachers who have adapted it
for the time that they're in. Yes, and they're like,
this is I feel called to focus on this aspect
of the teaching. I feel called to the focus on
this aspect of the teaching. You know, my lineage talks
about sex and it talks about the sacredness of sexuality
and the importance of preserving the male seed, but that

(49:55):
that's about all that goes into the public teachings at least,
you know, and because that isn't the focus. And that's fine,
because there's other branches of TNTRA, real lineage based mantra
that do offer that for the people who want to
and whose path that's part of. So you know, there,
I think about like how we have so many different

(50:16):
branches of Christianity. Right, there's Lutheranism, this Catholicism, there's Orthodox
it's everything. There's so many different kinds of Christianity. And
I'd say it's comparable in that way that there's so
many different branches of TNTRA and they might be so
different they might seem sometimes to be in opposition to
each other. Yeah, and I know, talking about our different lineages,

(50:37):
there are parts where are like whoa, how does this
come from the same origin? But they do, right, they
share the same roots. And if we go back far enough,
and and I think that's you know, important to recognize
that there's going to be an expression of true lineage
TNTRA that's going to resonate for each person y and

(50:59):
so some times you just have to put that intention
out and go on that quest to seek it out.
But there is so much richness and healing to be
found you don't need to go with the water down
potentially harmful aspects of it.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
So I think we've got a few minutes left, and
so I wanted to ask you this question because this
is the one that I'm really confused about when people
say that they're they that they like that, Like, so
you said that your your husband and your partner wanted
to like contric sex, Like what do the fuck what
do they mean by? Because I hear that's like, oh

(51:44):
we had it was it was very tontral like, And
I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about because
for me, tontra sex is really fucking complicated, like like
what I'm doing really tonterc sex, Like it's amazing and
excitic whatever, but there's a lot of shit going on,
like I describe. So I'm so confused with spy what
what what did your husband mean?

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Well, it was this this partner that I had. I
think they had like some of mantec Chia's books, Oh okay,
and they got me to read a part of a passage.
I'm like, oh, I was so traumatizing to read this,
And what I remember reading in there was that maybe

(52:25):
it wasn't mantec Chia, maybe it was somebody else, But
what I remember reading in there was that the man
and the woman, because it's very sis heteronormative, the man
and the woman have to organasm at the same time,
and the woman is not allowed to She's not allowed
to climax until the man climaxes, and so like, it

(52:45):
was this explanation of like a valley orgasm, like you
would get to a peak and then you'd have to
take it away and then get to another peak and
take it away, and get to another peak and take
it away. And it was practicing that that actually left
me with sexual trauma.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Dude, that doesn't sound like Dallas sexual to me. From
what I've read about deosexuality. It's like, how many orgasms
can she can have? A million of fucking make her come,
make her comedy, come come come, co come co come come,
And only when she says you can, can you stop
because you're not even supposed to be ejaculating, motherfucker, not
all ever. Yeah, yeah, so don't know it lets you

(53:19):
try to have a baby.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
So I mean that that that was just one passage
of a book that this partner.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Had me read.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
And I don't know what else is out there, but
I know that it definitely never felt that kind of
like you know, like I look at that Alex Gray art.
I know you guys have that same print in your
house too, and you know that's the aspiration for what
ton Tric sex is going to feel like this transcendent
energy cycling. And I've had that experience with partners, with

(53:51):
different multiple different partners, and it's beautiful and incredible and
nothing at all like what this book was China urgent.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
But even I was gonna say, but even like having
transcend into amazing experiences isn't necessarily ton Tric sex. Like again,
Tontric you're do. It's something you do, like again my
inductrination or in trainment in it is. It is energy
body yoga. So I can be making love with my
husband and it can be great and expansive and wonderful,
and it's gonna it's gonna build upon our non sexual

(54:23):
and sexual contra practice. But when we are practicing sexual tantra,
we are doing a very specific series of methods and
practices that can then be translated to ordinary sex too.
But it's just because it's expanded sex doesn't mean it's
contra expanded sex. Feeling all connected and one with universe.
That's just your birthright. That's called normal sex. That's called
natural human sex. That's what we're supposed to be having.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
But there's a lot of practices that I think get
pulled into ner tontra that are just like basic health
things that are good, like let's work on releasing our
pelvic floor, and like not a whole thing'll let chronic
tension in our so ass from how chronically stressed and
traumatized we are. You know, that's probably a good thing.
Breath work probably a good thing to do as a

(55:09):
human being. You can bring that into the sexual space
or not. Right, Like, they're all elements that are healthy
and worthy and worthwhile doing. But are they part of tntra?

Speaker 1 (55:22):
Thank you? What is your lineage? And who is your teacher?
That's what it boils down to. All right, Well, this
has been in enlivening conversation and probably very triggering in
some ears, But I'm okay with that. So we're no
strangers to that. Thank you, Mel, This is so fun.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Thank you baby. I always love chatting with you.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
Likewise, so you audience, you have been enlightened. I'm going
to leave links, as I said, under this video on
our blog at Authentic tntra dot com hopefully on YouTube too,
so you can read more about the roots of neo tantra.
Uh it's it's it's good to know. Doesn't mean you
can't ever enjoy neotntra. Just no know what you're know
what you're doing right, No, no, no where it came from.

(56:11):
And so that can I find I think that that
can help like navigate that, like you know, if you
kind of you know, for forewarned is forearmed?

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Yes? Yeah yeah, everybody, Well, thank you so much for
joining us again. Make sure that you stay connected with
Mel at what is your website again.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Radical Relationship Coaching dot.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Ca a, Radical Relationship Coaching dot ca A and follow
her on Instagram for all of her amazing, amazing wisdom
coming down the pipeline. And you have a you have
an event coming up soon?

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Yeah yeah, My Monogamy Dtalks course starts October seventh.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Okay, all right, so go to Radical Relating dot c
A and check out that course Monogamy d Talks UH
and you can stay connected with us between shows at
Authentic tontra dot com online and Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all
the major outlets, and make sure that you give a
shout out to our marketing director Brian Craig, who is
holding it down and spreading the good word of the

(57:07):
institute online and everywhere we can. So have you mind,
take care. You've been listening to Sex's Medicine with Davey
Ward ericson your number one resource for holistic sex education.
You can listen to and subscribe to Sex's Medicine on Spotify, Stitcher,
tune in, iTunes, iHeartRadio, and YouTube. Just search Sex's Medicine

(57:31):
with Davy Ward. Stay connected with me and my guests
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(57:53):
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with Davey bournem