May 22, 2025 • 51 mins
We dive into the complex world of "consenting to unwanted sex" with Al Vernacchio, a comprehensive sex educator who brings unique insights from his position at a Quaker school. Our conversation explores why many women agree to sex they don't desire and the cultural influences that create these situations.
Al Vernacchio, MSEd teaches at Friends' Central School in Wynnewood, PA. He is the Coordinator of Gender, Sexuality, and Consent Education, a Senior Staff member in the department of Institutional Diversity, Equity, and Justice, and is also a member of the Upper School English department. Al is forthright, funny, and compassionate as he supports students, school communities, and families to develop healthy sexuality in young people of all ages.
A nationally recognized expert in human sexuality education for over 30 years, Al has lectured, published articles, and offered workshops throughout the country. His work has been featured in “Teaching Good Sex”, a November 20, 2011 cover story in The
New York Times Magazine. Al has given four TED Talks, and has appeared on
national programs such as NPR’s “Morning Edition”, “1A”, and “Radio Times”.
He is the author of For Goodness Sex: A Sex-Positive Guide to Raising Healthy, Empowered Teens published in a revised and expanded edition in April, 2023.
Al earned his BA in Theology from St. Joseph's University and his MSEd in
Human Sexuality Education from the University of Pennsylvania.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, sex Therapy 101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you, and one
(00:26):
of those is a book for thepublic about my research, about
regarding long-term outcomes ofconsenting to unwanted sex, or
duty sex as we sometimes call it, and in doing that, adding to
my own research over the year,you'll see my hair change, my
face change, because these wereall recorded over the course of
a year, recorded over the courseof a year, and I wanted to talk
(00:50):
to experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
I'm really excited.
(01:10):
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
I'll give you a little bit of abio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
Get ready for a really funconversation with Al Vernacchio,
(01:35):
who has a master's in education, teaches comprehensive sex ed
at the Friends Central School inPennsylvania.
He's the coordinator of gender,sexuality and consent education
, a senior staff member in theDepartment of Institutional
Diversity, equity and Justice,and is also a member of the
Upper School English Department.
(01:56):
Al is forthright, he is funny,he is compassionate and he
supports his students, schoolcommunities and family to help
develop healthy sexuality inyounger people of all ages.
Hi, cammie, hi, how are you all?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm really great thanks.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I'm good, good.
It's really really nice to talkto you this morning.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thanks, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Well, I really appreciate, just just, I think,
all the depth you can add tothis conversation just because
you feel you have a foot in somany cool communities.
Yeah, right, so, um, and I, Ido kind of want to treat this as
maybe like the beginning of aconversation, right, and I would
love that yeah, and I'm likehey, what's everyone think about
(02:44):
this thing?
I think maybe we found, as LisaDiamond and I were doing this
research.
So that first question withyour lens, your background, your
experience in sexuality, howare you interpreting these
findings about these outcomeswe're seeing women have by
consenting to sex they don'twant long term?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, I was.
I mean, honestly, I wastroubled by the results and, to
my mind, I have a hard timecalling it consenting.
I don't think they areconsenting, but I don't think
they know that I don't thinkthey are consenting, but I don't
(03:28):
think they know that.
(03:52):
Tell me more about your lens ofconsent and coercion and why
that's where you were thinking.
Think about the language thatwe use and find places where
we're using language that wemight have just sort of like
adopted.
Like, for example, sexualactivity is a phrase that I
really challenge my students tothink about what that means.
This like this assumption thatit's, you know, penetrative and
(04:12):
and that kind of stuff.
So for me, the women in yourstudy, when they're saying
they're consenting to thisunwanted sex, they're, you know,
like, is consent really theright word?
They're agreeing to it.
They're, they're they're,they're, they're, they're
settling for it, they'reacquiescing.
(04:35):
Yeah, yeah, but but I think ofconsent as kind of enthusiastic
and and really affirmative, andthese women don't seem like
they're they're into it, and Ithink there's a million reasons
for that that we can talk about,but but I think that it's.
I think I think we have aculture that is very misinformed
(05:00):
about what consent really meansand and that is that labels a
lot of things consent thatprobably should be labeled
something else, and I don't evenknow if we have the language
for what it should be labeled.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
We might need a new word.
We have consent and coercion.
There are these two extremes ona continuum.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Assault right and I don't think we would call this
assault.
Is it coercive?
In some cases it's not, butthese women don't really want it
, but they're doing it anywayand I think that has a lot to do
with the way we socialize girlsand women and the way we
(05:40):
culture sort of talks aboutsexual activity and what it is
and the place it has in arelationship.
So I just I was so excited byyour research because it sent me
in a million differentdirections in thinking about
this and thinking about me as asexuality educator and what you
(06:08):
know.
What can I do when I'm workingwith young people to create some
foundation that maybe wouldhelp people not fall into this
dynamic that that a lot of thewomen that you're, that you're
interviewing have fallen into?
I don't think I don't.
I want to be clear.
I don't think it's their fault,I don't think they're doing
anything wrong, but I think thatthey don't have a conceptual
(06:30):
model of relationship, sex andconsent and sex that allows them
to frame this in any way otherthan I consented.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And you're saying we, we don'teven have the language yet for
maybe what this is.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah.
Consent would be enthusiastic,and this is that Consent would
be enthusiastic and affirmativeand and, um, you know, I think I
think for me, um, reallyhealthy consent conveys, um a
sense of, if not excitement thenat least interest.
And I think the thing that Isaw, or the thing that as you
(07:09):
were talking in the clip yousent me about your research, is
that some of these women aren'teven really interested in having
sex, like, they're fine,they're okay with it, but they'd
rather do something else.
But, but for well, for whateverreason, they feel like they
either can't or don't know howto, or or feel prohibited in
(07:32):
some way from doing that, and itmight be prohibited on the not
not from their partner sense,but in their own sense.
Like I don't know that I canreally assert myself here.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Right and I had that same feeling as I was reading
through some of the qualitativestatements.
Some women, it was known theirhusband knew this was happening
and there were other women whowere actively concealing this.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Right, and so it was this internal pressure of I have
to do this.
And it wasn't always comingfrom the partner saying I need
you to do this.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Right, no, and that, and that jives with what we see
with with young teenage girlswhen they're, when they're
beginning their sexual lives,that a lot of them are, they're
not having pressure from theirpartners but they don't really
know how to say I'd likesomething different or, you know
(08:31):
, is this the right time, oryeah?
So I think there's, and I thinkthat when they, when they have
those early experiences of, youknow, what I call non-consensual
but not in the same way ofassault or coercion sexual
activity, that sets them up forwhen they get into relationships
, just you know, acquiescing,for lack of a better word.
(08:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Are you comfortable moving on to question two, or
were there some more questionsOkay?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
No, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So you did mention culture.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
What culture is this?
American culture?
You know, you, you hold areally cool space in the
Protestant or Quaker world.
Is this a Christian thing?
Is this a Protestant thing?
Is this a U S thing?
Is this a female thing?
That you know.
When you talk about culture,what were?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
you yeah.
So I think like us to see it dothat.
I think certainly I don't thinkQuaker, but I think many
(09:57):
Christian cultures have a verypatriarchal view of
relationships and sex and Ithink that makes it difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Quakers specifically are like non-hierarchical right
Quakers are non-hierarchical weare.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Equity and equality are two of our core testimonies.
So I think what you would findin a Quaker theology of sex is
something that looks much moreegalitarian and really does give
people permission to say whatthey want.
Now, that doesn't mean thatQuakers aren't influenced by all
(10:38):
the other cultural aspectsaround them.
So I don't think Quakerrelationships are perfect by any
means, but I do think that froma theological standpoint, they
are much less likely to behierarchical and patriarchal and
(10:58):
sex negative.
Also, I think a lot ofChristianity my undergraduate
degree is in theology and Ispent my early life being
Catholic and then became aQuaker and so I think that one
of the things that led me toQuakerism was this sense of not
(11:19):
only equity and justice aroundgender, but also this sense that
sex was not anything inherentlysinful or dirty or problematic
and that it really is supposedto be this affirming life-giving
, not in the reproduction way,but in the spirit way.
Experience and you know, andthat's the other sad thing about
(11:43):
this is that it just seems likethe sexual experiences that
these couples are having isn'treally, certainly for the women
that you talk to, doesn't feellife-giving, doesn't feel
spirit-affirming.
Yeah, it feels necessary orobligatory or just expensive.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And expending a cost.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And certainly they're alsogetting some benefit from it,
because they wouldn't do it ifthey weren't getting something
out of it.
But when you think about equityand like, what are we getting
out of this experience, you knowI'm not sure there's equity at
all in what one partner isgetting versus the other in that
(12:25):
kind of experience.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Cool language you're introducing here.
That's coming from yourcultural background of your
Quakerism, and I'm hearing yousay that in your view, it's
probably multiculturalism, inthat any culture that has a
hierarchy you're going to seemore of this.
Is that kind of what I'mhearing you say yeah, we've got
(12:48):
a lot of cultures with hierarchyand patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Right, and so it's intersectional right.
So if you're female by biologyor by identity, that's one
culture.
And then if you're American,and then if you're Christian,
and then if you're, you know,whatever your political
affiliations are, so it's it'sthey all.
They all bump against andinfluence each other.
(13:15):
And it might be interesting tosee in your study, looking at
some of the other culturaldimensions that these women are
part of, and are there otheraspects that actually make it
more likely?
they would acquiesce to thisconsensual but unwanted sexual
(13:39):
contact.
Consensual but unwanted sexualcontact.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, yeah, I was hoping for diversity in my
research and it just ended upbeing really homogeneous, of
course.
So I'm like is this a white,middle-class Christian woman,
western United States thing?
I didn't intend that to be thepopulation, but that's who?
Self-selected?
Sure, sure.
(14:06):
But I like this idea thatthere's multicultural, that
there can be a lot of influences, but if there's a hierarchy,
that's going to have more of aninfluence than if one of the
core values of that communitywas equity and egalitarianism.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Sure, and there's also a difference between
communities that say they valueequality and what that looks
like in practice.
So I think it also.
You know, there's a lot ofcommunities that will talk about
equality, but I do think insome of the more conservative
Christian communities theyspecifically don't talk about
(14:46):
that.
They really do have verydifferent places and for me the
thing is is different, justdifferent, or is different
hierarchical Places?
Where difference ishierarchical?
That's where we see a lot ofproblematic outcomes.
You know, when I'm talking tothird graders and fourth graders
(15:07):
about gender, we play a gamewhere we I call it just
different, or better or worse.
It's like pairs of things, right.
So like a penny and a quarter,are they just different or is
one better than the other?
You know a raincoat andumbrella, you know we can have
preferences about things and wecan see things as different, but
(15:30):
the the problem, I think, comesfrom when we start imposing
hierarchy on difference anddifference means this is better
and this is worse.
So if in your relationship, menand women are different but men
have more power than women,that's going to set about
dynamic that much more leads tothe kind of things you found
than if it, if it, if differentwere, were not seen as
(15:53):
hierarchical.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
That's helpful.
That's helpful, okay.
Third question Do you seewithin the you already said some
of this within the quakercommunity or the larger
protestant community, um factorsof culture that might you know,
protect or be protective ofthis?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
yeah, um, certainly, I think that I think, um, the
way that a culture's fundamentalassumptions about gender are
really important and can beprotective.
I think that I don't know ifthis is a cultural factor, but I
certainly think the level ofsexuality education and the
(16:39):
quality of sexuality educationthat people get at all ages and
stages of their life can beprotective.
I think that the way we'retaught how to communicate, you
know, can be protective.
So much of consent.
Education is about givingpeople language to be able,
(17:03):
giving them permission to saywhat they want and giving them
language to express that whatthey want and what they don't
want.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Which I believe you correct me if I'm wrong which I
believe in your community is amajor pillar that people can say
when they want to or don't wantto like the way that even
meetings are arranged right.
Oh sure, yeah, yeah, this focuson communication skills and
choice and when and what youwant to share.
Am I, am I?
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And the other thing I would say is that, especially
in Quaker communities, the mostfundamental assumption in in
like if Quakers have a theologywhich is tough to say our core,
our most core belief, is thatevery person contains the divine
within them.
So whenever we are interactingwith another person, we are
(17:51):
interacting with a person whohas the divine, the divine light
within them, so we have totreat them according to that and
so that leads to According tothat and so that leads to
(18:17):
egalitarian, that leads to notbeing oppressive, that leads to
valuing people simply forinherently because they are, not
because of what they do or canprovide of inherent goodness and
inherent worth.
especially when that comestheologically, that can be a
really big protective factor.
Yeah.
Because somebody believesautomatically that they're worth
.
They're worthy of love andbelonging that's Brene Brown's
(18:40):
word or they're worthy of beingable to say no, or to say what
they want and that what theywant is important and that what
they want is a result of theirbeing in touch with you.
Know some kind of higher,higher truth, higher core,
higher being?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And that may or may not branch into broader
Protestantism, depending on thesects Right, and I think it does
not.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I think that most other mainstream Protestant
sects would not.
They would all say that thatbetter than some other
(19:29):
mainstream, especiallyfundamentalist Protestant.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well, I would agree.
Okay, what about?
You know you are an expert insexual health education and you
mentioned that as a protective.
You know, depending on how muchthe community values education,
that's going to influence thissome too.
Tell me some of the ways yousee in your role as a sex
educator.
What's the solution topreventing this for people who
(19:55):
are children now but will beadults later?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Again.
There's a wide variety of ways,but one of the things is and
this is really hard helping kidsbegin to critically assess and
question the water they swim inthe societal messaging that they
(20:23):
get on the daily.
What are they seeing in thecartoons they watch?
What are they seeing in thebehaviors they see from the
grownups around them?
What are they seeing in the toyads that come out around the
holidays?
Developing that awareness thatwe are constantly being offered
(20:49):
messages about who we'resupposed to be, how we're
supposed to act, what we'resupposed to do, and that we
actually have choice overwhether we want to accept those
or push back against those.
And to do that requires a lotof skill.
So there's awareness and thenthere's skill, and I think part
(21:11):
of what happens is a lot of sex.
Ed works on the skill and neverlooks at the awareness.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Oh, tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah.
So I think what often happensis, you know, we tell kids you
have the right to say no toanything you don't want sexually
, but we don't tell kids.
But that goes against all themessaging that you're being sold
every day, and so, without thatpiece, then you think well, I
(21:40):
have the right to say no, butwhy is nobody listening to me,
or why isn't that working?
I must be doing it wrong.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Why isn't it working?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Right, and whereas if you say, oh okay, this isn't
working, not because I'm doingsomething wrong, but because I'm
pushing against something muchbigger than just this person in
front of me, who's who's wanting, and then you know how can we
help young people talk to theirpartners, talk to their
(22:17):
sweethearts, about this sort oflarger awareness that we help
them develop, because it's onlywith that, you know, it's the
same way of, like, you know,being in a minority group, right
?
If you're a person of color, youhave a keen awareness of how
white culture works and you haveto know that to be able to
(22:37):
navigate.
Well, if you're white, youdon't have to have that, right,
you navigate the world, youdon't have to think about that.
But the more awareness you haveof that, the more you're able
to become a better, you know,anti-racist, anti-bias ally.
So the same thing.
First, we have to get people tounderstand the message is
(22:59):
impacting them and how itimpacts them, and that's easier,
like it's easier to get girlsto see that than boys to see
that in a very binary way oftalking about it.
But then what's hard is so youknow, I can, I can get young
women in my classes to see thatthey're being sold a bill of
(23:20):
goods.
But then what are you supposedto do with that?
How do you?
What do you do around that?
And part of what you do is youhave to make the other people
see that as well, because oncethey see that, then they see oh
wait, I actually might behurting you and I don't.
I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So like I wonder, I think that's really true here in
this research, because even asit's become an idea I'll talk
about with my clients, or that'sstarting to get talked about
with other clients, I have this.
I don't want to be tooaccusatory of the partner
involved here, so so they'realso operating from all the
(24:01):
messages.
They might not realize ourentitlement messages, they might
not realize our, and so I likehow you pointed that out that we
can't.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
In some of these situations there might not be a
villain, so to say, or aperpetrator so to say, right
know, just from from theresearch that you described, it
doesn't, it doesn't feelcoercive, it doesn't feel like
(24:34):
there's a villain here.
It feels like there's somebodyasking for something, not
realizing that their partner isnot as into it, or or it they
don't recognize the pressuresthat their partners are feeling
to say yes, to acquiesce to this, that there's so much involved
in in what seems like a simplequestion yes or no.
(24:54):
But there's so much underneaththat, and the more, the more the
sort of majority or dominantculture can become aware of that
, the more they can realize twothings.
One is that it's actually sofrom the guy's perspective.
It's not my fault.
I'm not a terrible person, I'mnot a villain.
I've been, as as what were,conditioned, programmed.
(25:19):
You know, I've been as swept upin this as anybody else, and so
the awareness is going tobenefit me as well, because I
become more free to be able notonly to see things in my partner
that I might not see, but Ibecome able to see things that
might allow me to decide whatkind of person.
(25:41):
I want to be you know, and Ithink that that's.
but we have such fear about that, especially in today's
political climate.
There's such fear aboutexpanding knowledge or opening
eyes or, you know, doing somecritical analysis of the society
(26:06):
the way it is, and I think it'sbecause too many people have a
zero-sum mentality when it comesto this, like if you're going
to get something, I'm going tolose something.
But the goal is that we allhave access to really good
outcomes, whether it's sex or arelationship, or you know how to
(26:32):
manage a home or how to raisekids.
That what we're looking for aresolutions that allow each of us
to be our authentic selves, useour strengths whatever they are
, and make the world betterright um and I think, I think a
lot of the guy.
It would be interesting it's awhole different study but but to
(26:56):
go back and talk to thepartners of these women right
and to really get a sense ofwhat their understanding is.
I think they would be.
I think many of them would bereally shocked, and some
probably devastated, to learnthat maybe they are
inadvertently, you know, causingcausing their partners to do
(27:17):
things that they really don'twant to do.
Um you know, I, some people sayI give people too much credit.
But I, I, I don't think so Ithink.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
But that might be the world, you that might be the
way you want to engage.
Well, it's the way that I framemy life.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I'm not afraid to look at it.
Once you get over the fear oflooking at it, then you realize
oh, okay.
It's not, you know it's not sobad.
Yeah, there's a cost involved.
You know knowledge always hascost.
But and one of the things youhave to give up is your, your
sense of you know, being incontrol and being the top dog,
(28:00):
and and there's a real sense ofsafety that comes with that.
You know you feel morevulnerable.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I appreciate it.
Vulnerable is good.
Yeah.
So, as an educator, I like howyou analyzed what needs to maybe
some more emphasis in sexeducation, not just on the
skills but on the awareness andin this, this K through 12 world
(28:31):
of sex education.
A lot of that is thinking aboutwait.
Where'd that message come from?
Am I aware of the influencesthat contribute to my decision
making?
And that I think you're right.
Sometimes sex ed ends upsounding like the just say no to
drugs campaign, which we knowdidn't work, you know, and, and
it's like here's what you saywhen that happens.
But then there's no follow-upof well, what do I do with my
(28:53):
partners and like, oh, you'reright, oh, thank you so much for
being honest.
Oh, absolutely, your body isyour.
You know.
What do you do when then there,it doesn't work, it doesn't
feel like it'll work, it'll feellike it'll backfire.
Very cool.
Okay, it doesn't work.
It doesn't feel like it'll work.
It'll feel like it'll backfire.
Very cool, okay.
What about for adults, who arejust becoming aware of this?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
you can't go back and start from the beginning, right
?
You can't.
You can't undo what's been done.
You can't, you can't change theway you were brought up or what
you internalized.
So what is so?
What is the first step you cantake?
You know what's, what is it?
What's the goal that you want?
You know what?
What do you?
What do you?
if you can envision who youwould like to be, or the
conversation you would like tohave with your partner.
(29:51):
What's the first step to that?
And then let's look at the nextstep to that.
And that's also the way I talkto kids, you know, when we're
talking about relationships, youknow, like, when you imagine
the kind of relationship youwant to have, well, what are
some early steps?
That sort of get that set up,because you don't go right to
(30:11):
the goal.
It's a process and I think foradults the hard part is to
realize that, whereas kids havethe opportunity to sort of start
that process earlier and avoidsome of the mistakes and
pitfalls that maybe adults havefallen into, we don't have that
(30:33):
opportunity.
We can start from now and moveforward with the awareness that
it wasn't as good as it couldhave been in the past, that
maybe we hurt or were hurt bypeople, that maybe we, you know,
did a lot of things we wish wedidn't do, but all that's going
to do is drag us down and keepus from being able to move
(30:57):
forward.
So, starting from now, lookingahead, what do I want?
What's an initial step?
And you know, and certainly,for I mean I don't do therapy,
but certainly in the educationthat I do.
You know you don't start withsex, start with something much
easier, you know, like withrelationships, you know.
(31:19):
You know with kids you don'tstart with sex, you start with
something much easier and then,and then you move up to that Um,
because that that just feelstoo too big and too scary and
too hard yeah, and I don't knowwhy.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
the way you phrased it helped me see something in a
different way as far as withcouples and trying to bring
awareness to this idea, castingthe vision of sexual health
being, instead of saying I wantyou to learn to be okay when I
say no, which I think is maybethe goal is, but that's not the
(31:56):
vision, the vision being let'sbuild a sexual life together
that's mutually enjoyable,non-exploitative.
You know values, consent, thatwe value honesty, and so then,
whenever the no comes up, goingback to the vision of oh, you're
right, we wanted an honest,mutually enjoyable, non
exploitative relationship.
(32:16):
This is part of that process.
You just kind of helped mefigure out how, for couples, you
cast a vision that doesn't feelrestrictive, shaming and
controlling of the other partner.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Right, yeah, the way I frame it with teenagers is
that you know when you'refighting with your sweetheart.
You want the relationship towin.
If either of you wins, you wantthe relationship to win.
If either of you wins, probablythe relationship doesn't win.
So what's the solution?
(32:55):
That allows this relationshipthat you've created together to
win, to move forward and I thinkthat's kind of what you're
saying.
there is like what, when couplesthink about that, oh what,
what's the thing that's going toallow us to continue together
happily and on this path?
And sometimes that's going totake a lot of work and a lot of
(33:16):
undoing and some couples aregoing to find that they actually
don't have the same vision.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And that's really hard.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
But, boy, it's better to know that than not know that
yeah, I think that's some ofthe rock and hard place many of
these women experience is, ifI'm really honest here, this
isn't working and that willaffect my living situation, my
access to financial resources,my access to my children.
Yeah, you're right.
And so then it's this huge, itbecomes right, larger than do
(33:50):
you want to have sex?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
yeah, and that pulls you back to the hierarchical
stuff and the patriarchy and andall that.
Sure.
But I mean, who wouldn't sayyes when all of that is on the
line, whether you want to or not?
who wouldn't say sure, whateverbecause, there's, it's, it's,
it's so heavily weighted with somuch other stuff.
Yeah, and again, that's theawareness that that both parties
(34:16):
in the relationship need torecognize.
You know, and it can be easyfor for you know,
stereotypically for a man to say, oh look, oh look, really, this
is just about like, right now,and do you want to have sex
right now?
This is not about like, am Igoing to support you tomorrow?
Right but.
But words don't hurt it, yeahyeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Both people have to wake up to the system that
they're in and in this situation, it might be the only the
females we interviewed were opento the consequences of a no,
and their partners might nothave thought about that.
Right.
Okay, awesome, okay Questionsix do you see this as do you
(35:07):
see these women as having lowdesire, low sexual desire, or do
you see this as somethingdifferent?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, I don't see it as low sexual desire, I see it
as something different.
I see it as, um, uh, perhaps asa system that that sort of
constructs sexual interactionsand sexual models in a way that
(35:38):
doesn't fairly reflect thereality that many women are in
when it comes to these consentsituations.
So they come out looking likethey have low desire when when
(35:59):
they may not.
It's just that the weight ofall this other stuff makes it
hard to relax, right?
So, like what?
What allows sexual desire toflow freely to?
To what allows us to reallyrespond to sexual desire and to
(36:20):
feel it right.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
There's got to be a sense of freedom.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
There's got to be a sense of there's going to be a
good outcome for me.
There's got to be a sense ofthere's going to be a good
outcome for me.
There's got to be a sense of mypleasure and desires matter, you
know, and I think that whenthose conditions aren't there,
(36:44):
it's not fair to then say, well,you have low desire?
No, I don't.
I don't have the conditionsthat allow my desire to be
respected and to be actualized.
You know now, of course, andalso just from my perspective as
a sex educator, like peoplehave really different levels of
(37:07):
desire, and part of the otherproblem is there's this
expectation that we're all goingto be horny all the time for
everybody, and that's just notthe way we work, and you know.
So if a relationship moves to aplace where the people in.
It are fine with it becoming farless sexual and more
(37:30):
affectionate.
Well then then you know, Iguess that has to be okay.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Right, that's gonna be fine, there's nothing wrong
with that, um, but again, it'sthat communication and it's that
, it's that mutual understandingI mean I agree, and I find it
difficult as a therapist becauseI think too often we're having
this conversation about lowdesire and not the conversation
about the conditions necessaryfor desire, right.
(37:59):
And so then, you know, I get awoman in my office who said my
husband says I have to come andwe're trying to fix.
You know, we're looking at itthrough like an individual
diagnosis lens, which I don'tthink it is.
I think it's a context, adynamic, a conditions, uh, what
they've created together astheir norms and their roles in
(38:24):
there, right, but we don't.
But we're then just likeselling books about desire and
doing desire interventions andI'm like I don't know if that's
going to work for that.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
You don't frame it that way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'mtotally in agreement with you.
Yeah, so I think, in some waysit's just, you know, when we,
when we classify these women ashaving low desire or having some
kind of disorder of desire, andwe're, we're moving in exactly
the opposite direction of wherewe want to go, we're, um, we're
(38:55):
pathologizing women forresponding to this.
This, um, sort of arcade gamethey've been put into and where
the rules aren't fair yeah andso they're recognizing that and
they don't want to, they don'twant to play the game.
Well, nobody says, well, wait,the problem is the game yeah,
(39:18):
player so why do we want to playthis game?
right, whether that game is therelationship or whether that
game is something larger.
Um, if it just comes down towell, you're a bad player and
you never have to think aboutthe game or the other or the
other people in the game.
It, you know, it takes what it,as you said, it takes this.
(39:39):
This is really a communal issueor problem or situation, and we
, our tendency is to reduce itto.
You have a problem, right, youknow, which happens all the time
and is really unfair.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, and and that might come through some of our U
S values of individualisminstead of collectivism, right
Yep.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yep, but that also be useful in terms of when I've
talked to some young women aboutyou know how unfair some of
these situations are.
They then get angry andempowered as opposed to feeling
defeated, and empowered asopposed to feeling defeated.
(40:32):
So you know, for some people,that awareness of the game, for
some people it makes them feellike, well, I can't win anyway,
so what the hell?
But there are some people whofeel like, wow, it's not my
fault, there's something biggergoing on here and I don't want
that.
I want to.
You know, there is something Ican do and it's not just about
fixing me Like, yeah, there arecertain things I can, I can, I
(40:56):
can develop my skills and I canwork on, but but it, the whole
thing is not just housed in me.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Right, yeah, it's a heavy burden.
I've seen a lot of relief.
I've gotten a lot of emailsfrom women that are speaking of
the relief when they realized Imight not be broken.
It might be the system thatwe're operating in that's broken
.
Yeah, yeah yeah all right.
So our last question what wasthe what, what were some of your
(41:27):
thoughts that I didn't askabout, just like this op-ed
commentary, because you couldhave seen something that I
didn't see, so I didn't ask aquestion about it.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
How difficult we've made it we, the larger, we, the
societal we, to do this verynatural thing, which is to love
each other and to like we arewe're.
We're made for connection,we're made to come together,
we're made to cooperate.
We're wired that way.
(42:05):
We need it, we're, we're, we're, we're social animals.
You know, it really does take avillage, it's, it's better for
us to be in community.
And yet there are all theseways where we, we stop that or
(42:26):
block that or or push againstthat, um, and it's bad for all
of us, but but there's a largersystem that says that's not what
really matters, right and youknow again this individualism,
this, this, um exceptionalism,this.
(42:46):
I'm gonna come out on top umthis.
Competitive, you know,competition versus cooperation
um uh that, when you look at somany of our systems, uh, it's
not a surprise that we're soscrewed up in so many ways when
(43:06):
it comes especially to sex andrelationships, and every
generation wants to do better bytheir kids, but unless that
generation becomes more aware ofthe systems, that are
surrounding them and their kids.
We're just going to wind uprepeating the same pattern.
(43:26):
We're just going to keep givingpeople the same, you know,
inadequate set of skills orinadequate information and then
say, gee, that didn't, whydidn't that work?
So in some ways it in some waysit did really make me sad
because I thought, oh, we reallyhaven't like come as far as I
(43:51):
as I I hope we have.
But on the other hand, you know,we this may sound much more
haughty than I mean it, but likewe kind of know what the
solution is and it's just aboutgetting people to hear it and to
(44:20):
believe it.
I mean, I've, I've worked at aschool for 30 years as the sex
educator and the, the, the thesort of progress I have made is
so tiny compared to what Ireally had hoped we could do.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, and you know, but it's progress, right it's it
is progress and I hear whatyou're saying when it's making
me think about is in theresearch for this dissertation.
You know how many years have wespent on consent and
affirmative consent in collegesand we still.
There was a statistic that 90%of college age girls give
consent by saying nothing, and Iwas like oh my gosh, how many
(45:00):
millions of dollars have wespent and we only have 10% of
women in college age.
You know, using verbal consentinstead of just saying nothing.
Yeah that we've had the effort,a lot of effort, but we're
seeing change happen reallyslowly.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Right right.
And part of that is because weinsist on the focus of lessons
being on teaching women how tonot get raped versus teaching
men not to rape.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Putting the efforts and, quite frankly, the efforts
go where.
You know this is a littleMachiavellian, but the efforts
go where the system lets it goright.
And pushes it away from where itreally might affect and impact
(45:56):
change.
Because there's a lot of peoplewho like the system the way it
is and are getting great benefitfrom it.
And so that's why, for me, youknow, when I think about the,
the, the global situation andthe national situation and all
that, my response, response tothat scariness and you know, is
(46:20):
to get smaller right.
So how do I, how do I get, youknow, my school community a
little better informed aboutthis right?
And then it's.
It's because the solution hasto be bottom up.
It's never going to work topdown.
So what are we doing to?
(46:41):
What are we doing with theconnections that we have?
I mean, that's why I, that'swhy I love therapy and I love
therapists, because the benefitthat I've had from therapy in my
whole life is somebody who'sbeen helping me get aware about
myself and about larger systemsand who's not trying to fix the
(47:05):
world, he's trying to help mefigure out strategies that then
I can take, and you know, eachone teach one.
Um, so I, I, we make progress,um, but yeah, our big programs
don't, they don't do it.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Um, it's the, it's the what's it like, as an
educator, to say that, that ourbig programs don't oh, it's I
mean.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Well, if you've been in education for a long time,
like I have, you know that.
So that's, just an act of yourlife, and your life is
constantly figuring out.
How do I keep doing it despitethat?
You've got to have ways to feellike you are effective enough
(47:54):
or that you are affecting changein some way.
And for me, that's just thenumber of students who talk to
me years after they've graduatedto say I still remember this
conversation or this reallyaffected the way I am in
relationships and it's not everykid by far, but it's enough
that tells me.
You know, if I hadn't done thiswork, we wouldn't be that far.
(48:19):
So, you know, I think it's agame of inches.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, a game of inches, and I hadn't necessarily
thought about it that way, thatthe top down is not going to
work, and I thought, well, itshould.
And then I'm like that's thewater I swim in, that's the
hierarchy.
I like everything has this bigumbrella and then it filters I
mean even top down economics oreven like top down power, and so
it was funny.
(48:45):
Even as you said that, I waslike, but it's supposed to work,
because that's the way.
Instead of the conditioning ofit really is bottom up is what's
going to be influential.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Yeah, yeah, so you know, I think that I think that
the the the work that you'veyou've begun with this
dissertation is is creating thisgreat opportunity to then for
those women in the study to goback and create opportunities
(49:17):
for them, to, for their partnersto like see what's happening,
to affect some, you know, tomaybe affect some change there,
and then they figure somethingout that they share with their
friends and family.
And then you know and I don'tyou know, who knows, whenever
(49:38):
we're going to get lucky andinfluence somebody who's going
to become one of the big,powerful people in the system
who might have enough resilience, to get there and still be able
to push back and, and you know,really try to change things.
(49:59):
Um, you know, I have to hold outhope that that's at least
possible.
Um, I don't know if it's likely, but it's possible.
It's possible.
There's reason to get up in themorning and keep, keep doing it
.
Yeah, yeah, there's reason toget up in the morning and keep
doing it.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, this was helpful.
I really appreciate your lens,your expertise.
You have, like I said, yourfoot in so many cool communities
and I appreciate it.
I just want I don't want tooperate in an echo chamber, I
don't want to write a book froman echo chamber especially.
So I really appreciate youbeing willing to say, hey, I
(50:38):
don't even know you, but I'mwilling to have a conversation
with you.
I appreciate it so much.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
It's my pleasure.
I think you're doing great workand I really am.
I'm really inspired by thequestions you're asking and and
yeah, and I thought, I thoughtmaybe I have something to
contribute that could be useful,so I'm glad it was yeah, thank
you I really appreciate it.
Always happy to talk more.
Yeah, anytime.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Okay, I hope you have a good day.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Thanks, kimmy, you too Take care, bye-bye, bye-bye.
Hello, sex Therapy 101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you, and one
(00:26):
of those is a book for thepublic about my research, about
regarding long-term outcomes ofconsenting to unwanted sex, or
duty sex as we sometimes call it, and in doing that, adding to
my own research over the year,you'll see my hair change, my
face change, because these wereall recorded over the course of
a year, recorded over the courseof a year, and I wanted to talk
(00:50):
to experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
I'm really excited.
(01:10):
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
I'll give you a little bit of abio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
Get ready for a really funconversation with Al Vernacchio,
(01:35):
who has a master's in education, teaches comprehensive sex ed
at the Friends Central School inPennsylvania.
He's the coordinator of gender,sexuality and consent education
, a senior staff member in theDepartment of Institutional
Diversity, equity and Justice,and is also a member of the
Upper School English Department.
(01:56):
Al is forthright, he is funny,he is compassionate and he
supports his students, schoolcommunities and family to help
develop healthy sexuality inyounger people of all ages.
Hi, cammie, hi, how are you all?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm really great thanks.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I'm good, good.
It's really really nice to talkto you this morning.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thanks, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Well, I really appreciate, just just, I think,
all the depth you can add tothis conversation just because
you feel you have a foot in somany cool communities.
Yeah, right, so, um, and I, Ido kind of want to treat this as
maybe like the beginning of aconversation, right, and I would
love that yeah, and I'm likehey, what's everyone think about
(02:44):
this thing?
I think maybe we found, as LisaDiamond and I were doing this
research.
So that first question withyour lens, your background, your
experience in sexuality, howare you interpreting these
findings about these outcomeswe're seeing women have by
consenting to sex they don'twant long term?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, I was.
I mean, honestly, I wastroubled by the results and, to
my mind, I have a hard timecalling it consenting.
I don't think they areconsenting, but I don't think
they know that I don't thinkthey are consenting, but I don't
(03:28):
think they know that.
(03:52):
Tell me more about your lens ofconsent and coercion and why
that's where you were thinking.
Think about the language thatwe use and find places where
we're using language that wemight have just sort of like
adopted.
Like, for example, sexualactivity is a phrase that I
really challenge my students tothink about what that means.
This like this assumption thatit's, you know, penetrative and
(04:12):
and that kind of stuff.
So for me, the women in yourstudy, when they're saying
they're consenting to thisunwanted sex, they're, you know,
like, is consent really theright word?
They're agreeing to it.
They're, they're they're,they're, they're, they're
settling for it, they'reacquiescing.
(04:35):
Yeah, yeah, but but I think ofconsent as kind of enthusiastic
and and really affirmative, andthese women don't seem like
they're they're into it, and Ithink there's a million reasons
for that that we can talk about,but but I think that it's.
I think I think we have aculture that is very misinformed
(05:00):
about what consent really meansand and that is that labels a
lot of things consent thatprobably should be labeled
something else, and I don't evenknow if we have the language
for what it should be labeled.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
We might need a new word.
We have consent and coercion.
There are these two extremes ona continuum.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Assault right and I don't think we would call this
assault.
Is it coercive?
In some cases it's not, butthese women don't really want it
, but they're doing it anywayand I think that has a lot to do
with the way we socialize girlsand women and the way we
(05:40):
culture sort of talks aboutsexual activity and what it is
and the place it has in arelationship.
So I just I was so excited byyour research because it sent me
in a million differentdirections in thinking about
this and thinking about me as asexuality educator and what you
(06:08):
know.
What can I do when I'm workingwith young people to create some
foundation that maybe wouldhelp people not fall into this
dynamic that that a lot of thewomen that you're, that you're
interviewing have fallen into?
I don't think I don't.
I want to be clear.
I don't think it's their fault,I don't think they're doing
anything wrong, but I think thatthey don't have a conceptual
(06:30):
model of relationship, sex andconsent and sex that allows them
to frame this in any way otherthan I consented.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And you're saying we, we don'teven have the language yet for
maybe what this is.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah.
Consent would be enthusiastic,and this is that Consent would
be enthusiastic and affirmativeand and, um, you know, I think I
think for me, um, reallyhealthy consent conveys, um a
sense of, if not excitement thenat least interest.
And I think the thing that Isaw, or the thing that as you
(07:09):
were talking in the clip yousent me about your research, is
that some of these women aren'teven really interested in having
sex, like, they're fine,they're okay with it, but they'd
rather do something else.
But, but for well, for whateverreason, they feel like they
either can't or don't know howto, or or feel prohibited in
(07:32):
some way from doing that, and itmight be prohibited on the not
not from their partner sense,but in their own sense.
Like I don't know that I canreally assert myself here.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Right and I had that same feeling as I was reading
through some of the qualitativestatements.
Some women, it was known theirhusband knew this was happening
and there were other women whowere actively concealing this.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Right, and so it was this internal pressure of I have
to do this.
And it wasn't always comingfrom the partner saying I need
you to do this.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Right, no, and that, and that jives with what we see
with with young teenage girlswhen they're, when they're
beginning their sexual lives,that a lot of them are, they're
not having pressure from theirpartners but they don't really
know how to say I'd likesomething different or, you know
(08:31):
, is this the right time, oryeah?
So I think there's, and I thinkthat when they, when they have
those early experiences of, youknow, what I call non-consensual
but not in the same way ofassault or coercion sexual
activity, that sets them up forwhen they get into relationships
, just you know, acquiescing,for lack of a better word.
(08:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Are you comfortable moving on to question two, or
were there some more questionsOkay?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
No, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So you did mention culture.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
What culture is this?
American culture?
You know, you, you hold areally cool space in the
Protestant or Quaker world.
Is this a Christian thing?
Is this a Protestant thing?
Is this a U S thing?
Is this a female thing?
That you know.
When you talk about culture,what were?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
you yeah.
So I think like us to see it dothat.
I think certainly I don't thinkQuaker, but I think many
(09:57):
Christian cultures have a verypatriarchal view of
relationships and sex and Ithink that makes it difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Quakers specifically are like non-hierarchical right
Quakers are non-hierarchical weare.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Equity and equality are two of our core testimonies.
So I think what you would findin a Quaker theology of sex is
something that looks much moreegalitarian and really does give
people permission to say whatthey want.
Now, that doesn't mean thatQuakers aren't influenced by all
(10:38):
the other cultural aspectsaround them.
So I don't think Quakerrelationships are perfect by any
means, but I do think that froma theological standpoint, they
are much less likely to behierarchical and patriarchal and
(10:58):
sex negative.
Also, I think a lot ofChristianity my undergraduate
degree is in theology and Ispent my early life being
Catholic and then became aQuaker and so I think that one
of the things that led me toQuakerism was this sense of not
(11:19):
only equity and justice aroundgender, but also this sense that
sex was not anything inherentlysinful or dirty or problematic
and that it really is supposedto be this affirming life-giving
, not in the reproduction way,but in the spirit way.
Experience and you know, andthat's the other sad thing about
(11:43):
this is that it just seems likethe sexual experiences that
these couples are having isn'treally, certainly for the women
that you talk to, doesn't feellife-giving, doesn't feel
spirit-affirming.
Yeah, it feels necessary orobligatory or just expensive.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And expending a cost.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And certainly they're alsogetting some benefit from it,
because they wouldn't do it ifthey weren't getting something
out of it.
But when you think about equityand like, what are we getting
out of this experience, you knowI'm not sure there's equity at
all in what one partner isgetting versus the other in that
(12:25):
kind of experience.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Cool language you're introducing here.
That's coming from yourcultural background of your
Quakerism, and I'm hearing yousay that in your view, it's
probably multiculturalism, inthat any culture that has a
hierarchy you're going to seemore of this.
Is that kind of what I'mhearing you say yeah, we've got
(12:48):
a lot of cultures with hierarchyand patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Right, and so it's intersectional right.
So if you're female by biologyor by identity, that's one
culture.
And then if you're American,and then if you're Christian,
and then if you're, you know,whatever your political
affiliations are, so it's it'sthey all.
They all bump against andinfluence each other.
(13:15):
And it might be interesting tosee in your study, looking at
some of the other culturaldimensions that these women are
part of, and are there otheraspects that actually make it
more likely?
they would acquiesce to thisconsensual but unwanted sexual
(13:39):
contact.
Consensual but unwanted sexualcontact.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, yeah, I was hoping for diversity in my
research and it just ended upbeing really homogeneous, of
course.
So I'm like is this a white,middle-class Christian woman,
western United States thing?
I didn't intend that to be thepopulation, but that's who?
Self-selected?
Sure, sure.
(14:06):
But I like this idea thatthere's multicultural, that
there can be a lot of influences, but if there's a hierarchy,
that's going to have more of aninfluence than if one of the
core values of that communitywas equity and egalitarianism.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Sure, and there's also a difference between
communities that say they valueequality and what that looks
like in practice.
So I think it also.
You know, there's a lot ofcommunities that will talk about
equality, but I do think insome of the more conservative
Christian communities theyspecifically don't talk about
(14:46):
that.
They really do have verydifferent places and for me the
thing is is different, justdifferent, or is different
hierarchical Places?
Where difference ishierarchical?
That's where we see a lot ofproblematic outcomes.
You know, when I'm talking tothird graders and fourth graders
(15:07):
about gender, we play a gamewhere we I call it just
different, or better or worse.
It's like pairs of things, right.
So like a penny and a quarter,are they just different or is
one better than the other?
You know a raincoat andumbrella, you know we can have
preferences about things and wecan see things as different, but
(15:30):
the the problem, I think, comesfrom when we start imposing
hierarchy on difference anddifference means this is better
and this is worse.
So if in your relationship, menand women are different but men
have more power than women,that's going to set about
dynamic that much more leads tothe kind of things you found
than if it, if it, if differentwere, were not seen as
(15:53):
hierarchical.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
That's helpful.
That's helpful, okay.
Third question Do you seewithin the you already said some
of this within the quakercommunity or the larger
protestant community, um factorsof culture that might you know,
protect or be protective ofthis?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
yeah, um, certainly, I think that I think, um, the
way that a culture's fundamentalassumptions about gender are
really important and can beprotective.
I think that I don't know ifthis is a cultural factor, but I
certainly think the level ofsexuality education and the
(16:39):
quality of sexuality educationthat people get at all ages and
stages of their life can beprotective.
I think that the way we'retaught how to communicate, you
know, can be protective.
So much of consent.
Education is about givingpeople language to be able,
(17:03):
giving them permission to saywhat they want and giving them
language to express that whatthey want and what they don't
want.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Which I believe you correct me if I'm wrong which I
believe in your community is amajor pillar that people can say
when they want to or don't wantto like the way that even
meetings are arranged right.
Oh sure, yeah, yeah, this focuson communication skills and
choice and when and what youwant to share.
Am I, am I?
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And the other thing I would say is that, especially
in Quaker communities, the mostfundamental assumption in in
like if Quakers have a theologywhich is tough to say our core,
our most core belief, is thatevery person contains the divine
within them.
So whenever we are interactingwith another person, we are
(17:51):
interacting with a person whohas the divine, the divine light
within them, so we have totreat them according to that and
so that leads to According tothat and so that leads to
(18:17):
egalitarian, that leads to notbeing oppressive, that leads to
valuing people simply forinherently because they are, not
because of what they do or canprovide of inherent goodness and
inherent worth.
especially when that comestheologically, that can be a
really big protective factor.
Yeah.
Because somebody believesautomatically that they're worth
.
They're worthy of love andbelonging that's Brene Brown's
(18:40):
word or they're worthy of beingable to say no, or to say what
they want and that what theywant is important and that what
they want is a result of theirbeing in touch with you.
Know some kind of higher,higher truth, higher core,
higher being?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And that may or may not branch into broader
Protestantism, depending on thesects Right, and I think it does
not.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I think that most other mainstream Protestant
sects would not.
They would all say that thatbetter than some other
(19:29):
mainstream, especiallyfundamentalist Protestant.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Well, I would agree.
Okay, what about?
You know you are an expert insexual health education and you
mentioned that as a protective.
You know, depending on how muchthe community values education,
that's going to influence thissome too.
Tell me some of the ways yousee in your role as a sex
educator.
What's the solution topreventing this for people who
(19:55):
are children now but will beadults later?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Again.
There's a wide variety of ways,but one of the things is and
this is really hard helping kidsbegin to critically assess and
question the water they swim inthe societal messaging that they
(20:23):
get on the daily.
What are they seeing in thecartoons they watch?
What are they seeing in thebehaviors they see from the
grownups around them?
What are they seeing in the toyads that come out around the
holidays?
Developing that awareness thatwe are constantly being offered
(20:49):
messages about who we'resupposed to be, how we're
supposed to act, what we'resupposed to do, and that we
actually have choice overwhether we want to accept those
or push back against those.
And to do that requires a lotof skill.
So there's awareness and thenthere's skill, and I think part
(21:11):
of what happens is a lot of sex.
Ed works on the skill and neverlooks at the awareness.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Oh, tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah.
So I think what often happensis, you know, we tell kids you
have the right to say no toanything you don't want sexually
, but we don't tell kids.
But that goes against all themessaging that you're being sold
every day, and so, without thatpiece, then you think well, I
(21:40):
have the right to say no, butwhy is nobody listening to me,
or why isn't that working?
I must be doing it wrong.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Why isn't it working?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Right, and whereas if you say, oh okay, this isn't
working, not because I'm doingsomething wrong, but because I'm
pushing against something muchbigger than just this person in
front of me, who's who's wanting, and then you know how can we
help young people talk to theirpartners, talk to their
(22:17):
sweethearts, about this sort oflarger awareness that we help
them develop, because it's onlywith that, you know, it's the
same way of, like, you know,being in a minority group, right
?
If you're a person of color, youhave a keen awareness of how
white culture works and you haveto know that to be able to
(22:37):
navigate.
Well, if you're white, youdon't have to have that, right,
you navigate the world, youdon't have to think about that.
But the more awareness you haveof that, the more you're able
to become a better, you know,anti-racist, anti-bias ally.
So the same thing.
First, we have to get people tounderstand the message is
(22:59):
impacting them and how itimpacts them, and that's easier,
like it's easier to get girlsto see that than boys to see
that in a very binary way oftalking about it.
But then what's hard is so youknow, I can, I can get young
women in my classes to see thatthey're being sold a bill of
(23:20):
goods.
But then what are you supposedto do with that?
How do you?
What do you do around that?
And part of what you do is youhave to make the other people
see that as well, because oncethey see that, then they see oh
wait, I actually might behurting you and I don't.
I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So like I wonder, I think that's really true here in
this research, because even asit's become an idea I'll talk
about with my clients, or that'sstarting to get talked about
with other clients, I have this.
I don't want to be tooaccusatory of the partner
involved here, so so they'realso operating from all the
(24:01):
messages.
They might not realize ourentitlement messages, they might
not realize our, and so I likehow you pointed that out that we
can't.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
In some of these situations there might not be a
villain, so to say, or aperpetrator so to say, right
know, just from from theresearch that you described, it
doesn't, it doesn't feelcoercive, it doesn't feel like
(24:34):
there's a villain here.
It feels like there's somebodyasking for something, not
realizing that their partner isnot as into it, or or it they
don't recognize the pressuresthat their partners are feeling
to say yes, to acquiesce to this, that there's so much involved
in in what seems like a simplequestion yes or no.
(24:54):
But there's so much underneaththat, and the more, the more the
sort of majority or dominantculture can become aware of that
, the more they can realize twothings.
One is that it's actually sofrom the guy's perspective.
It's not my fault.
I'm not a terrible person, I'mnot a villain.
I've been, as as what were,conditioned, programmed.
(25:19):
You know, I've been as swept upin this as anybody else, and so
the awareness is going tobenefit me as well, because I
become more free to be able notonly to see things in my partner
that I might not see, but Ibecome able to see things that
might allow me to decide whatkind of person.
(25:41):
I want to be you know, and Ithink that that's.
but we have such fear about that, especially in today's
political climate.
There's such fear aboutexpanding knowledge or opening
eyes or, you know, doing somecritical analysis of the society
(26:06):
the way it is, and I think it'sbecause too many people have a
zero-sum mentality when it comesto this, like if you're going
to get something, I'm going tolose something.
But the goal is that we allhave access to really good
outcomes, whether it's sex or arelationship, or you know how to
(26:32):
manage a home or how to raisekids.
That what we're looking for aresolutions that allow each of us
to be our authentic selves, useour strengths whatever they are
, and make the world betterright um and I think, I think a
lot of the guy.
It would be interesting it's awhole different study but but to
(26:56):
go back and talk to thepartners of these women right
and to really get a sense ofwhat their understanding is.
I think they would be.
I think many of them would bereally shocked, and some
probably devastated, to learnthat maybe they are
inadvertently, you know, causingcausing their partners to do
(27:17):
things that they really don'twant to do.
Um you know, I, some people sayI give people too much credit.
But I, I, I don't think so Ithink.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
But that might be the world, you that might be the
way you want to engage.
Well, it's the way that I framemy life.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I'm not afraid to look at it.
Once you get over the fear oflooking at it, then you realize
oh, okay.
It's not, you know it's not sobad.
Yeah, there's a cost involved.
You know knowledge always hascost.
But and one of the things youhave to give up is your, your
sense of you know, being incontrol and being the top dog,
(28:00):
and and there's a real sense ofsafety that comes with that.
You know you feel morevulnerable.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I appreciate it.
Vulnerable is good.
Yeah.
So, as an educator, I like howyou analyzed what needs to maybe
some more emphasis in sexeducation, not just on the
skills but on the awareness andin this, this K through 12 world
(28:31):
of sex education.
A lot of that is thinking aboutwait.
Where'd that message come from?
Am I aware of the influencesthat contribute to my decision
making?
And that I think you're right.
Sometimes sex ed ends upsounding like the just say no to
drugs campaign, which we knowdidn't work, you know, and, and
it's like here's what you saywhen that happens.
But then there's no follow-upof well, what do I do with my
(28:53):
partners and like, oh, you'reright, oh, thank you so much for
being honest.
Oh, absolutely, your body isyour.
You know.
What do you do when then there,it doesn't work, it doesn't
feel like it'll work, it'll feellike it'll backfire.
Very cool.
Okay, it doesn't work.
It doesn't feel like it'll work.
It'll feel like it'll backfire.
Very cool, okay.
What about for adults, who arejust becoming aware of this?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
you can't go back and start from the beginning, right
?
You can't.
You can't undo what's been done.
You can't, you can't change theway you were brought up or what
you internalized.
So what is so?
What is the first step you cantake?
You know what's, what is it?
What's the goal that you want?
You know what?
What do you?
What do you?
if you can envision who youwould like to be, or the
conversation you would like tohave with your partner.
(29:51):
What's the first step to that?
And then let's look at the nextstep to that.
And that's also the way I talkto kids, you know, when we're
talking about relationships, youknow, like, when you imagine
the kind of relationship youwant to have, well, what are
some early steps?
That sort of get that set up,because you don't go right to
(30:11):
the goal.
It's a process and I think foradults the hard part is to
realize that, whereas kids havethe opportunity to sort of start
that process earlier and avoidsome of the mistakes and
pitfalls that maybe adults havefallen into, we don't have that
(30:33):
opportunity.
We can start from now and moveforward with the awareness that
it wasn't as good as it couldhave been in the past, that
maybe we hurt or were hurt bypeople, that maybe we, you know,
did a lot of things we wish wedidn't do, but all that's going
to do is drag us down and keepus from being able to move
(30:57):
forward.
So, starting from now, lookingahead, what do I want?
What's an initial step?
And you know, and certainly,for I mean I don't do therapy,
but certainly in the educationthat I do.
You know you don't start withsex, start with something much
easier, you know, like withrelationships, you know.
(31:19):
You know with kids you don'tstart with sex, you start with
something much easier and then,and then you move up to that Um,
because that that just feelstoo too big and too scary and
too hard yeah, and I don't knowwhy.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
the way you phrased it helped me see something in a
different way as far as withcouples and trying to bring
awareness to this idea, castingthe vision of sexual health
being, instead of saying I wantyou to learn to be okay when I
say no, which I think is maybethe goal is, but that's not the
(31:56):
vision, the vision being let'sbuild a sexual life together
that's mutually enjoyable,non-exploitative.
You know values, consent, thatwe value honesty, and so then,
whenever the no comes up, goingback to the vision of oh, you're
right, we wanted an honest,mutually enjoyable, non
exploitative relationship.
(32:16):
This is part of that process.
You just kind of helped mefigure out how, for couples, you
cast a vision that doesn't feelrestrictive, shaming and
controlling of the other partner.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Right, yeah, the way I frame it with teenagers is
that you know when you'refighting with your sweetheart.
You want the relationship towin.
If either of you wins, you wantthe relationship to win.
If either of you wins, probablythe relationship doesn't win.
So what's the solution?
(32:55):
That allows this relationshipthat you've created together to
win, to move forward and I thinkthat's kind of what you're
saying.
there is like what, when couplesthink about that, oh what,
what's the thing that's going toallow us to continue together
happily and on this path?
And sometimes that's going totake a lot of work and a lot of
(33:16):
undoing and some couples aregoing to find that they actually
don't have the same vision.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And that's really hard.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
But, boy, it's better to know that than not know that
yeah, I think that's some ofthe rock and hard place many of
these women experience is, ifI'm really honest here, this
isn't working and that willaffect my living situation, my
access to financial resources,my access to my children.
Yeah, you're right.
And so then it's this huge, itbecomes right, larger than do
(33:50):
you want to have sex?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
yeah, and that pulls you back to the hierarchical
stuff and the patriarchy and andall that.
Sure.
But I mean, who wouldn't sayyes when all of that is on the
line, whether you want to or not?
who wouldn't say sure, whateverbecause, there's, it's, it's,
it's so heavily weighted with somuch other stuff.
Yeah, and again, that's theawareness that that both parties
(34:16):
in the relationship need torecognize.
You know, and it can be easyfor for you know,
stereotypically for a man to say, oh look, oh look, really, this
is just about like, right now,and do you want to have sex
right now?
This is not about like, am Igoing to support you tomorrow?
Right but.
But words don't hurt it, yeahyeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Both people have to wake up to the system that
they're in and in this situation, it might be the only the
females we interviewed were opento the consequences of a no,
and their partners might nothave thought about that.
Right.
Okay, awesome, okay Questionsix do you see this as do you
(35:07):
see these women as having lowdesire, low sexual desire, or do
you see this as somethingdifferent?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, I don't see it as low sexual desire, I see it
as something different.
I see it as, um, uh, perhaps asa system that that sort of
constructs sexual interactionsand sexual models in a way that
(35:38):
doesn't fairly reflect thereality that many women are in
when it comes to these consentsituations.
So they come out looking likethey have low desire when when
(35:59):
they may not.
It's just that the weight ofall this other stuff makes it
hard to relax, right?
So, like what?
What allows sexual desire toflow freely to?
To what allows us to reallyrespond to sexual desire and to
(36:20):
feel it right.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
There's got to be a sense of freedom.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
There's got to be a sense of there's going to be a
good outcome for me.
There's got to be a sense ofthere's going to be a good
outcome for me.
There's got to be a sense of mypleasure and desires matter, you
know, and I think that whenthose conditions aren't there,
(36:44):
it's not fair to then say, well,you have low desire?
No, I don't.
I don't have the conditionsthat allow my desire to be
respected and to be actualized.
You know now, of course, andalso just from my perspective as
a sex educator, like peoplehave really different levels of
(37:07):
desire, and part of the otherproblem is there's this
expectation that we're all goingto be horny all the time for
everybody, and that's just notthe way we work, and you know.
So if a relationship moves to aplace where the people in.
It are fine with it becoming farless sexual and more
(37:30):
affectionate.
Well then then you know, Iguess that has to be okay.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Right, that's gonna be fine, there's nothing wrong
with that, um, but again, it'sthat communication and it's that
, it's that mutual understandingI mean I agree, and I find it
difficult as a therapist becauseI think too often we're having
this conversation about lowdesire and not the conversation
about the conditions necessaryfor desire, right.
(37:59):
And so then, you know, I get awoman in my office who said my
husband says I have to come andwe're trying to fix.
You know, we're looking at itthrough like an individual
diagnosis lens, which I don'tthink it is.
I think it's a context, adynamic, a conditions, uh, what
they've created together astheir norms and their roles in
(38:24):
there, right, but we don't.
But we're then just likeselling books about desire and
doing desire interventions andI'm like I don't know if that's
going to work for that.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
You don't frame it that way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'mtotally in agreement with you.
Yeah, so I think, in some waysit's just, you know, when we,
when we classify these women ashaving low desire or having some
kind of disorder of desire, andwe're, we're moving in exactly
the opposite direction of wherewe want to go, we're, um, we're
(38:55):
pathologizing women forresponding to this.
This, um, sort of arcade gamethey've been put into and where
the rules aren't fair yeah andso they're recognizing that and
they don't want to, they don'twant to play the game.
Well, nobody says, well, wait,the problem is the game yeah,
(39:18):
player so why do we want to playthis game?
right, whether that game is therelationship or whether that
game is something larger.
Um, if it just comes down towell, you're a bad player and
you never have to think aboutthe game or the other or the
other people in the game.
It, you know, it takes what it,as you said, it takes this.
(39:39):
This is really a communal issueor problem or situation, and we
, our tendency is to reduce itto.
You have a problem, right, youknow, which happens all the time
and is really unfair.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, and and that might come through some of our U
S values of individualisminstead of collectivism, right
Yep.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yep, but that also be useful in terms of when I've
talked to some young women aboutyou know how unfair some of
these situations are.
They then get angry andempowered as opposed to feeling
defeated, and empowered asopposed to feeling defeated.
(40:32):
So you know, for some people,that awareness of the game, for
some people it makes them feellike, well, I can't win anyway,
so what the hell?
But there are some people whofeel like, wow, it's not my
fault, there's something biggergoing on here and I don't want
that.
I want to.
You know, there is something Ican do and it's not just about
fixing me Like, yeah, there arecertain things I can, I can, I
(40:56):
can develop my skills and I canwork on, but but it, the whole
thing is not just housed in me.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Right, yeah, it's a heavy burden.
I've seen a lot of relief.
I've gotten a lot of emailsfrom women that are speaking of
the relief when they realized Imight not be broken.
It might be the system thatwe're operating in that's broken
.
Yeah, yeah yeah all right.
So our last question what wasthe what, what were some of your
(41:27):
thoughts that I didn't askabout, just like this op-ed
commentary, because you couldhave seen something that I
didn't see, so I didn't ask aquestion about it.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
How difficult we've made it we, the larger, we, the
societal we, to do this verynatural thing, which is to love
each other and to like we arewe're.
We're made for connection,we're made to come together,
we're made to cooperate.
We're wired that way.
(42:05):
We need it, we're, we're, we're, we're social animals.
You know, it really does take avillage, it's, it's better for
us to be in community.
And yet there are all theseways where we, we stop that or
(42:26):
block that or or push againstthat, um, and it's bad for all
of us, but but there's a largersystem that says that's not what
really matters, right and youknow again this individualism,
this, this, um exceptionalism,this.
(42:46):
I'm gonna come out on top umthis.
Competitive, you know,competition versus cooperation
um uh that, when you look at somany of our systems, uh, it's
not a surprise that we're soscrewed up in so many ways when
(43:06):
it comes especially to sex andrelationships, and every
generation wants to do better bytheir kids, but unless that
generation becomes more aware ofthe systems, that are
surrounding them and their kids.
We're just going to wind uprepeating the same pattern.
(43:26):
We're just going to keep givingpeople the same, you know,
inadequate set of skills orinadequate information and then
say, gee, that didn't, whydidn't that work?
So in some ways it in some waysit did really make me sad
because I thought, oh, we reallyhaven't like come as far as I
(43:51):
as I I hope we have.
But on the other hand, you know,we this may sound much more
haughty than I mean it, but likewe kind of know what the
solution is and it's just aboutgetting people to hear it and to
(44:20):
believe it.
I mean, I've, I've worked at aschool for 30 years as the sex
educator and the, the, the thesort of progress I have made is
so tiny compared to what Ireally had hoped we could do.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, and you know, but it's progress, right it's it
is progress and I hear whatyou're saying when it's making
me think about is in theresearch for this dissertation.
You know how many years have wespent on consent and
affirmative consent in collegesand we still.
There was a statistic that 90%of college age girls give
consent by saying nothing, and Iwas like oh my gosh, how many
(45:00):
millions of dollars have wespent and we only have 10% of
women in college age.
You know, using verbal consentinstead of just saying nothing.
Yeah that we've had the effort,a lot of effort, but we're
seeing change happen reallyslowly.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Right right.
And part of that is because weinsist on the focus of lessons
being on teaching women how tonot get raped versus teaching
men not to rape.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Putting the efforts and, quite frankly, the efforts
go where.
You know this is a littleMachiavellian, but the efforts
go where the system lets it goright.
And pushes it away from where itreally might affect and impact
(45:56):
change.
Because there's a lot of peoplewho like the system the way it
is and are getting great benefitfrom it.
And so that's why, for me, youknow, when I think about the,
the, the global situation andthe national situation and all
that, my response, response tothat scariness and you know, is
(46:20):
to get smaller right.
So how do I, how do I get, youknow, my school community a
little better informed aboutthis right?
And then it's.
It's because the solution hasto be bottom up.
It's never going to work topdown.
So what are we doing to?
(46:41):
What are we doing with theconnections that we have?
I mean, that's why I, that'swhy I love therapy and I love
therapists, because the benefitthat I've had from therapy in my
whole life is somebody who'sbeen helping me get aware about
myself and about larger systemsand who's not trying to fix the
(47:05):
world, he's trying to help mefigure out strategies that then
I can take, and you know, eachone teach one.
Um, so I, I, we make progress,um, but yeah, our big programs
don't, they don't do it.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Um, it's the, it's the what's it like, as an
educator, to say that, that ourbig programs don't oh, it's I
mean.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Well, if you've been in education for a long time,
like I have, you know that.
So that's, just an act of yourlife, and your life is
constantly figuring out.
How do I keep doing it despitethat?
You've got to have ways to feellike you are effective enough
(47:54):
or that you are affecting changein some way.
And for me, that's just thenumber of students who talk to
me years after they've graduatedto say I still remember this
conversation or this reallyaffected the way I am in
relationships and it's not everykid by far, but it's enough
that tells me.
You know, if I hadn't done thiswork, we wouldn't be that far.
(48:19):
So, you know, I think it's agame of inches.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, a game of inches, and I hadn't necessarily
thought about it that way, thatthe top down is not going to
work, and I thought, well, itshould.
And then I'm like that's thewater I swim in, that's the
hierarchy.
I like everything has this bigumbrella and then it filters I
mean even top down economics oreven like top down power, and so
it was funny.
(48:45):
Even as you said that, I waslike, but it's supposed to work,
because that's the way.
Instead of the conditioning ofit really is bottom up is what's
going to be influential.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Yeah, yeah, so you know, I think that I think that
the the the work that you'veyou've begun with this
dissertation is is creating thisgreat opportunity to then for
those women in the study to goback and create opportunities
(49:17):
for them, to, for their partnersto like see what's happening,
to affect some, you know, tomaybe affect some change there,
and then they figure somethingout that they share with their
friends and family.
And then you know and I don'tyou know, who knows, whenever
(49:38):
we're going to get lucky andinfluence somebody who's going
to become one of the big,powerful people in the system
who might have enough resilience, to get there and still be able
to push back and, and you know,really try to change things.
(49:59):
Um, you know, I have to hold outhope that that's at least
possible.
Um, I don't know if it's likely, but it's possible.
It's possible.
There's reason to get up in themorning and keep, keep doing it
.
Yeah, yeah, there's reason toget up in the morning and keep
doing it.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, this was helpful.
I really appreciate your lens,your expertise.
You have, like I said, yourfoot in so many cool communities
and I appreciate it.
I just want I don't want tooperate in an echo chamber, I
don't want to write a book froman echo chamber especially.
So I really appreciate youbeing willing to say, hey, I
(50:38):
don't even know you, but I'mwilling to have a conversation
with you.
I appreciate it so much.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
It's my pleasure.
I think you're doing great workand I really am.
I'm really inspired by thequestions you're asking and and
yeah, and I thought, I thoughtmaybe I have something to
contribute that could be useful,so I'm glad it was yeah, thank
you I really appreciate it.
Always happy to talk more.
Yeah, anytime.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Okay, I hope you have a good day.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Thanks, kimmy, you too Take care, bye-bye, bye-bye.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.