September 4, 2025 • 54 mins
The shadow of colonial history still haunts our bedrooms. Sex therapist Anne Mauro reveals how historical trauma and cultural messaging create a perfect storm pushing women to consent to sex they don't truly desire.
Drawing from her extensive clinical experience, Mauro unpacks the complex intersection of race and sexuality—what she terms "ethno-sexuality"—with remarkable clarity. She traces how patriarchal family structures imposed during colonization continue shaping intimate relationships today, particularly within Black communities where "Christian supremacy" often reinforces female sexual subservience.
Perhaps most alarming is Mauro's revelation about media influence: "Sex education was the primary reason BIPOC teenagers viewed pornography." This default education source consistently portrays Black bodies with more aggression and less intimacy than white counterparts. When combined with societal silence around sexuality—"We're not talking to our children, we're not talking to our parents"—these harmful representations become the only script many young people know.
For therapists and couples alike, Mauro offers powerful somatic approaches to healing. She demonstrates how unwanted touch creates physical protective responses, teaching partners to recognize these bodily signals as important boundaries rather than obstacles. Through careful attunement and challenging colonial narratives, couples can rediscover mutual desire.
The conversation takes a hopeful turn as Mauro describes a growing cohort of Black clinicians developing culturally-specific interventions. Rather than adapting "white models to Black folks," these pioneers are creating new pathways to sexual healing that honor the unique experiences of Black communities.
Anne Mauro is a Licensed Couples and Family therapist, American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapist (AASECT) certified sex therapist, sexuality educator, sex therapy supervisor, and American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT) clinical supervisor. Her private practice is nestled in the interwebs on the unceded territory of the Coast Salish peoples in Washington State. She has two publications: More Than Ebony and Ivory: Complexities of sex therapy with interracial couples, can be found in An Intersectional Approach to Sex Therapy: Centering the lives of indigenous, racialized, and people of color and The Colonization of Black Sexualities: A clinical guide to relearning and healing. Anne is in continued service to the sexuality community by serving as the AASECT Western Representative to the nominating committee.
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Episode Transcript
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Cami (00:08):
Hi sex therapy.
101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me, and one ofthose is a book for the public
(00:30):
about my research aboutregarding long-term outcomes of
consenting to unwanted sex, orduty sex as we sometimes call it
, and in doing that, adding tomy own research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because these were
all recorded over the course ofa year and I wanted to talk to
(00:53):
experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
(01:17):
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
Now I'll give you a little bitof a bio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
(01:37):
I hope you enjoyed thisinterview with Ann Morrow as
much as I did.
She is a licensed marriage andfamily therapist, a certified
sex therapist through ASECT, aswell as a clinical supervisor.
She has a lot of training andshe has a lot of expertise and
experience.
She has a private practicebased out of Washington State
and she has two publicationsthat I want to highlight.
(02:00):
One is called More Than Ebonyand Ivory, and another called
Centering the Lives ofIndigenous, racialized and
People of Color in theColonization of Black
Sexualities.
This is a clinical guide torelearning and healing and is a
continued service to thesexuality community by serving
(02:22):
as the ASEC Westernrepresentative, which is
fantastic.
I really hope you enjoy thisconversation with that I had
with Anne.
Anne (02:30):
Hi, anne, hi, how's it going Good, can you see and hear
me?
Cami (02:36):
okay, I can Same for you, yes, so I'm really, I'm really
grateful that you're willing tohave this conversation, and it's
really generous.
I appreciate your time and yourexpertise and just the place
you hold in the world right now.
So thank you.
Anne (03:00):
Well, thank you for actually doing this work,
because this is really a pocketthat I haven't seen really
talked about so much, and so I'mglad that you did that research
, that you're continuing on withit with the book, and then
especially grateful that you'relooking at other populations
right, because you noticed thatsome people just kind of run
with that and publish, but thatyou're doing something.
I appreciate that.
Cami (03:18):
Trying to trying to.
So thank you for taking thetime to watch the video and
learn about my research and withyour lens, because you're an
expert in the world of sexualityand relationships and you saw
that research.
What did you see happening Like?
How did you interpret thoseresults?
Anne (03:38):
Or that idea.
Well, I'm interpreting it asthe, the unknown or unspoken
variable.
That's probably in a lot of ourwork that you're actually
surfacing and giving language to, and giving experience to that
people can resonate with and belike oh yeah, right, that is
(04:00):
what I'm doing, right, I don'treally want to be having sex
when I'm doing it and then Ifeel'm doing right, I don't
really want to be having sexwhen I'm doing it and then I
feel this feeling right, but Idon't think that people have
language around that experience.
Cami (04:13):
I like the language you just gave me of this is one of
an unknown variable, like we can, there's a dozen roads that
lead to I don't know if I wantto have sex right, and this is
putting a name to one of thosevariables that we don't talk
about.
I appreciate that.
That was, that was nicelanguage, and so then, if we're
taking a cultural lens someonewho you know comes from the
(04:36):
Black community, works withBlack community researches
rights like this is thisintersection of sexuality?
This intersection of sexuality?
What are some aspects,historically or even current,
you know, of Black communityculture that might keep women
consenting to sex they don'twant?
Anne (05:09):
I think that's a really good question and I have a
couple of different thoughts,but the major backdrop of what I
think of as modern day Americansexuality is under the umbrella
of still these colonial ideasof sexuality.
Think about how we aremimicking the nuclear family
structure that was imposed uponpeople in our area, the
indigenous native people, by theEnglish settlers, who really
(05:35):
mimicked a family structureunder a common law somebody who
is in power, a male right who isin power to tend and care for
the wife and children, just likethe state where the king was to
tend to the people as thehusband is to care for the wife
(05:55):
and the children.
So putting this man into thisposition of power, I think is
the backdrop of all of whatwe're seeing right.
And then, if we take that lensof that colonial ideology and
how historically people of color, black people, have been
treated in the realm ofsexuality, where they had no
(06:17):
autonomy over reproduction right, they didn't have a way to
consent to sexual activity, Ithink that we have to use that
as a backdrop when we'rethinking about this, of where we
come from historically, withthe patriarchy, with the race,
with the anti-Blackness, withthe misogynoir right.
Yeah, it's all embedded into thestructure.
(06:39):
That's baseline.
That's baseline, yeah, that'sthe baseline, part of it, yeah,
so I like what you're you'rebringing into.
We can bring in these conceptsof patriarchy into all parts of
this research, right, but whenwe're looking at the black
community, it's especiallydifferent due to, um, the
(07:01):
american descendants of slavery,right, yeah, but also when
teasing apart, like, what isBlackness in this study?
Right, that's a really big,also umbrella, term, sure, so
have you heard the termethno-sexuality before?
No, teach me, it's just theintersection between race and
(07:22):
sex, right?
Cami (07:24):
Okay, I think I just used the whole phrase.
We've got a term.
Okay, thank you yeah.
Anne (07:29):
So when we're looking at blackness and sexuality, I think
we also can dig a little bitdeeper in.
Are they American descendantsof slavery?
Are they Afro-Latinx, are theyAfro-Caribbean, are they
biracial black people?
Because I think too, inside ofthat, when we start to dig
(07:50):
through different messaging thatdifferent groups of people are
getting, we're going to seedifferent subsets within the
black community absolutely,absolutely right that are going
to contribute to why we've beenable to kind of perpetuate this
consensual, unwanted sexualactivity, right, because of
(08:11):
different messages that comefrom the different subsets of
people.
So, again, with that historicalcomponent, women have not been
in a position where they canspeak for their own wants and
desires, right, there's a realselflessness that comes under
that right.
And depending on what pocket ofBlack folks we're talking about
(08:36):
, but Christian supremacy reignssuperior within the Black
community, right, and so,thinking about how that mimics
in the family structure, thatcolonial idea of the man is on
top right and we are subservientto whatever desires that they
have and we need to be obedientto this person at the sacrifice
(09:00):
of ourselves, no matter whatthat looks like.
And you know, also, culturallyspeaking, I don't think that
we're talking a lot about sexpresently or historically, it's
not within, you know, community.
We're not talking about sex inchurch unless it's like
premarital counseling, it mightcome in.
(09:22):
We're not talking to ourchildren, we're not talking to
our parents.
So there's this hush aroundsexuality, knowing that there's
some kind of dominance andcontrol happening, but we're not
actually in a place to havelanguage or talk about it within
the communities.
(09:43):
So then I have another one.
I think mass media contributesto everybody, right, like not
just the Black folks.
When we think about how themedia really impacts us through
social learning, right, we arelearning all kinds of implicit
(10:04):
messages on how to treat eachother.
We're learning, and also it's agood reminder to say,
historically and majority, now,present day, all of the people
that are in charge of the mediaare white, cis men, and how they
want to portray black bodies inin films.
They might say, oh, this is ablack film, but you think who's
the writer in films?
(10:25):
They might say, oh, this is aBlack film, but you think who's
the writer, who's the producerof this?
Right, and a lot of times youwill find that there's white
people behind creating thenarratives around sexuality.
So that's like with just thegeneral media, right, it's not a
very good model for us inthinking about consent and
(10:48):
boundaries or putting women inpositions of sexual empowerment
to make their own sexualdecisions.
It's just, it's really not.
I'm like they just had aconsent conversation before they
, you know, did anything.
I'm loving how they're startingto implement it, but depending
(11:11):
on your age, you can really seehow the media, you know, has
impacted your ideas aroundboundaries, consent, autonomy
over your body.
So that's the media part.
And if we trickle down toerotica or pornography, as a lot
of people say, I don't thinkpeople really are grounded in
(11:35):
the fact that I have a stat hereit says sex education was the
primary reason that BIPOCteenagers and young adults
viewed pornography.
This is coming from CarolineWest.
She's out here in Tacoma,washington.
She came from UW.
The main reason BIPOC teenagersare watching pornography is for
(11:59):
sex education.
They want the education, theywant the education, education,
they want the education, theywant the education.
But unfortunately, what they'reseeing again is white cis males
who are funding producing,directing, and we know that for
that, black, latina and Asianwomen have a higher likelihood
(12:20):
of being featured in physicalaggression more than their white
counterparts, right, and sothere's this implicit.
I feel like it's a holdover fromthe colonial days that we can
treat Black and brown women acertain way.
It may not, like we talkedabout earlier, be in that
(12:42):
cognitive, you know, forefrontof the mind.
There's like these implicitmessages that are just so
insidious in our culture that weadopt that as a learning theory
.
Even if you're like I'm notracist, we have our biases that
we are actually gaining fromwhat we're watching all the time
, and so also in pornography.
(13:04):
Bipoc men weredisproportionately depicted as
the aggressors in pornography,right, and so if you're learning
, then you're learning that Ineed to be the aggressor, I need
to level up and demonstratewhat I'm seeing, to be a good
lover or to be good in bed.
And the problem too with thisis that what you're missing in
(13:28):
the pornography is those consentconversations that might happen
before or the aftercare thathappens after.
We're only getting thataggressive piece of pornography
without any context.
Cami (13:42):
And no range of expression without any context and no
range of expression.
It sounds like you know real.
Yes, just staying on theaggressive without saying a
whole range of sexual expressionthat might not include
aggression.
Anne (13:55):
Right, and on that, here's another one that Wes comes up
with.
She says that, compared towhite couples, Black women,
Black men and women demonstratedless intimacy in pornography,
defined as kissing using theother person's name, caressing,
having intercourse face-to-faceand talking to each other during
sex.
So we're creating a wholepopulation of kiddos coming up
(14:19):
underneath us, getting theireducation, viewing this and
learning that, right, this ishow you do sex, right, In this
aggressive way, in this takingwhat you want, and there's a
lack of intimacy when it comesto the Black body part, Right?
So what I think is it'snormalizing a certain kind of
(14:45):
violence or another type ofpatriarchal rule over the female
body, with these implicitmessages of taking and violence
and consent doesn't matter,boundaries don't matter
aggression.
You know all of that is justkind of interwoven into the
(15:06):
pornography.
And then when we step outsideof porn and look at just real
life, we know that for everyblack woman that reports a rape,
there's 15.
That don't.
Is that the statistic?
Cami (15:23):
I think I've only heard the general.
I don't think I've heard itbroken down by demographic.
Anne (15:28):
Right, it's like the one in three or whatever, but that's
staggering this violencebecause we're not talking about
it, right, we don't feel safe togo to the law, we don't feel
(15:48):
safe to tell our friend, hey,this thing happened.
And then we don't have commonknowledge, where a friend turns
and says, hey, that's not okay.
Right, because sometimes we'reactually normalizing, um the
behavior.
Oh, just just give him what hewants, just, do you know, keep
having sex and make him happy,right?
Instead of the other personturning and saying, hey, this
actually isn't right and let'stalk about you know how we can
(16:11):
make this better for you.
We put women in a position tosuffer, have been raped, but two
out of five have been survivorsof some sort of physical
violence, sexual violence or arape.
(16:33):
So those are the numbers.
Again, just normalizing thisbottom-down position, this
sexual subservient space thatBlack bodies are supposed to be
in, does that make sense?
Cami (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, and and it's not the thing that's standing
out to me is it's not staying ahistorical idea because of where
education is coming from andthat entertainment being
produced to consume.
It's not going to like age outthis, these ideas, right, it's
not like they're going to ageout with the next generation
(17:05):
because they're being promoted,not at the rate that we are
right now.
Anne (17:12):
Right, it would take some pretty big, drastic changes, I
think, for it to improve.
When this is the only placethat they are getting education
and when we think about rightnow, there's threats to sex
education being in curriculum,there's threats to critical race
theory being in curriculum, andwe see already from this talk
(17:32):
today is that there's a directlink in between what has
happened historically and wherewe are here now with this
sexuality, but that beingomitted from education is
omitted from common knowledge,right, and so it's almost this
gaslighting effect if you canrecognize that the harm is being
done.
Cami (17:50):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
I mean, it's not fantastic thatit's happening, but thank you
for teaching me because it'sfantastic that we can open our
eyes a little bit at a time,more and more and more, to see
the systemic things that keepchurning dynamics that are not
helpful for any of us, nothealthy.
Would you have additionalthoughts before I go to the next
(18:13):
one?
I don't want to rush you on thatone okay, what about, then,
certain aspects of you knowcommunity values, norms, beliefs
that might protect or might,you know, challenge the idea and
might help women to not consent?
Anne (18:30):
Yeah, the first thing that I thought of when I read that
was the Me Too movement.
Right, because it's amatriarchal, it's women led by
Black women, you know,originating for Black voices and
other AFAB bodies.
But if you look at it it looksmore around like sexual assault,
(18:51):
right, that sexual trauma, andnot so much what that I'm going
to call it a trauma, what thattrauma is within intimate
relationships, that you'recommitted relationship when
that's happening, right?
So that's why, again, I'm nothearing anybody talking about
that piece, but I felt like thatmovement, something where we
(19:12):
could have recognition fromother Black women or women of
color talking to women of colorabout what is being seen like
your work, right, with a blacklens put on it, being delivered
to the black community so we canhave it as a common knowledge
and shared language.
(19:32):
I think would be really, reallyhelpful.
I can't change this but newmedia resources, for example,
because, like I said, in the 80sis when I grew up and you would
have a woman who would say noand the guy would be like yes
and she'd be like no and evenslap him, and then all of a
(19:52):
sudden they're kissing, makingout and having and it's really
confusing, messaging, but right,it's like your.
Cami (19:57):
No doesn't actually matter , but my name is part of the
game or part of the chase, orpart of the yeah, yeah so
watching films with my um kiddowho's 11, she's loves
heartstopper right now.
Anne (20:12):
Have you seen heartstopper ?
Okay, so it's, it's queer, butthey have one black trans girl
on there who starts her datingjourney and in that she's able
to really articulate.
You get to see what comes upfor her in sexual scenarios,
(20:34):
somatically.
You see her then communicate toher partner about what is going
on and then you see him holdingany kind of boundaries and
asking for consent to doanything past or even adjacent
to something she may havementioned that was uncomfortable
for her.
That didn't happen when I was akiddo, no, no.
(20:58):
So if we could have more peoplemaking films like this, right,
cause if they're getting it fromporn, they're getting it from
TV.
They're not getting it fromtheir parents, they're not
getting it from their church,right?
So if this is what they'reactually getting and learning
about relationship, then we haveto switch mass media and how
we're looking at sex.
That's not perpetuating theharm.
(21:20):
Yeah, I think too that womengaining access to leadership
roles, opportunities within evensports, right, sports is very
patriarchal, right.
They let us have a couplethings right, but not even all
sports right.
(21:40):
And then they'll let us have asport, but they don't put us on
primetime TV, right?
You might not even get thechannel that plays your niece
who's playing professionalbasketball.
It'll be really hard toactually watch her, unless you
buy that extra package forwomen's sports, right?
Oh yeah, we have so manydifferent Fox or not Fox Sports,
(22:02):
but we have so many differentsports channels that are just
carved out for men's sports,right?
Whippy Goldberg, of all people,is now opening her own channel
that will only be showingwomen's sports on that channel
24-7.
It's that kind of visibility,right, putting us in positions
where we can be strong, we canbe empowered, we don't have to
(22:25):
be subservient, we are equal to,but we get mixed messages when
we can't really be at the samelevel.
There's always a hierarchy over.
So I feel like when we canstart moving into these
different positions of powerthat can be seen by younger
people, then that can build someof that sexual self-esteem,
(22:49):
because it's not being modeledthat you're subservient.
Does that make sense?
Cami (22:53):
Yeah, and I'm hearing you say what might have to happen
before just these sexualassertiveness skills is
developing them in all areas ofour life so that it's it's
natural, it's common sense, it's.
This is how I live my life.
It's like rejecting thesubservient nature in in all
(23:13):
areas will probably make iteasier than to reject
subservientness in a sexualcontext.
Instead of my lens, you know,instead of just looking at it so
narrow, of how do we empowerwomen to say what they want
sexually, why would theysexually if they couldn't
(23:34):
professionally, or that's whatI'm hearing you say.
Those are that where my, wheremy mind's going from what you're
teaching me, you know, yeah.
Anne (23:41):
Yeah, and another thing I think about is when working with
kiddos and sex ed right, like alot of people are like how do
we help kiddos like use theright language and do all this?
And it's like, yeah, but whathappens if this kiddo that you
just did brilliant sex ed workgoes home and tells her mom, oh,
it's not a vagina, it's a vulva.
And her mom clutches her pearlsand like, right, you're putting
(24:04):
her again into, like this gaslighting chamber right when I'm
learning something about myself.
But then you're setting me backinto this dysfunctional way of
thinking about sex and bodies.
And how do I exist in thatworld when the world is telling
me it's one way, but maybe Ilearned something else.
So maybe if you do it on anindividual level, they're still
(24:25):
in that insidious nature of allthese messages, saying something
different.
Yeah, because it's the backdropNot to be a Debbie Downer.
Cami (24:36):
They're serious subjects.
Anne (24:38):
Right.
Cami (24:40):
They feel like Downers.
Anne (24:41):
Often they do they do when this comes to like the Black
population specifically is wedon't really have models of
people talking about ethnosexuality in sitcoms or in
movies in a healthy way Right,we hear jokes, we get teased, we
(25:03):
have microaggressions, right,but we're not getting those
lessons built into the media.
So I think psychoeducation issuper important, right, I keep
talking about even having thatlanguage, right, even explaining
somatically what happens toyour body when you're
(25:24):
uncomfortable with something.
I think is is really, is reallybig.
And I think, in teaching theblack community about it, I
thought about doing it with,like, stories or examples, right
, bringing in something thatthey can resonate.
Instead of this fact is thisfact.
(25:45):
It's like, no, let's do somestorytelling around it so we can
personalize it and have someempathy and you know, and kind
of feel that validating like, ohyeah, right, we need to feel
that story rather than given thefacts is what I also feel and
which I feel like media could doso much with, since they're the
(26:06):
storytellers, they're narratingour era.
I think another piece that isreally big is just normalizing
and validating that there hasbeen either sexual boundary
crossing or having sex when youdidn't want to, and that that
can make you feel away Right.
(26:26):
I don't think we sit longenough to be like, wow, you know
what I mean.
You did something that didn'tfeel good to your body and that
makes sense.
I understand why that wouldn'tfeel like even sitting in that,
because it's that gaslightingagain like, oh, just give him
what he wants.
Oh, just, you know, maybe openyour relationship so you don't
(26:46):
have to be the one responsible.
And so, eventually sitting inthat feeling of what it has been
like for the last 10 years andthen to just now have your eyes
open to this is what washappening for the last 10 years.
You didn't know it, your bodyknew it, but your cognitions
didn't know it.
The other piece that I'll addinto this, which will be the
last piece, is actually thatcommunication skills building,
(27:09):
teaching people how tocommunicate those things,
because we don't have thelanguage around it.
We don't know how to language.
A lot of AFAB folks can't One.
If you ask like, what do youwant, want, what do you desire,
they can't drum that up fromwithin themselves, right, and
then when we get, to the spot.
Cami (27:28):
Yes, okay, you got it.
Go.
That's where it was that we, wepedestalize the sacrifice and
say, no, that makes you good.
And then women saying, but whydon't I feel good right after,
after I'm subservient sexuallylike it's supposed to be good,
it's supposed to be what'spraised in this patriarchal
structure, and depending on howmuch influence there is from
(27:49):
family or church, then and thenthat, conflicting with what you
just said, of listening to yourfeelings, but why don't I feel
good?
You know into your body thatretrospective we don't stop.
That was the thought.
Anne (28:02):
It's hard for folks to kind of feel that for themselves
.
But then if they get to a spotwhere they can say I really, I
really don't want to have sexafter you know, we were at the
Mariner game for 10 hours, right, and coming home, right, if
they can actually one figurethat out for themselves, right.
(28:24):
And then the other hard part ishow do I actually tell my
partner this without him?
I think one of your vignetteswas like the husband maybe had a
hissy fit or acted, you know,like a baby or you know what I
mean.
Like how do we communicate in away that's going to be
receptive, that our partnerhears and has empathy for,
(28:45):
rather than again belittles usor gives us, you know, a pout or
whatever it is to make us feelguilty for actually standing up
for what we want for ourselvesin our body?
Big missing chunk.
How do we communicate that?
Cami (29:04):
Absolutely, and no modeling for the other partner
of how to receive that.
Thank you so much for beinghonest to me.
I want our sexual relationshipto be mutually enjoyable.
I'm so glad you trust me withthat.
I'm sure that's hard to say.
Anne (29:17):
I know you don't want to disappoint me.
Cami (29:18):
You know those kinds of things, nobody's modeling,
accepting a no graciously,without creating distance, you
know.
Anne (29:27):
It's like they're, they're activated sometimes in their
own resent or rejection, right?
This rejection sensitivity ofsometimes some people feel like
they're owed, that like we're ina partnership you owe this to
me, we're married, you owe thisto me, right?
So again, with psychoeducation,that relationship mean
(29:48):
ownership ownership.
Cami (29:49):
Did you coin that phrase?
That was beautiful.
You're really great withlanguage, I'm glad.
Anne (29:54):
Okay, we, we need to make a t-shirt, and I already forgot
what I said.
Cami (29:58):
You have a background like I do in marriage and family
therapy.
We're both AAMFT supervisor.
I mean, that's kind of ourworld is a systemic lens.
If this couple lands on yourcouch, what do you see is going
to be helpful for them?
You've already described someof it.
But you've got, you know, theman obviously hurting the woman,
(30:20):
obviously avoidant and anxious,and sex hasn't been going well
for years.
And you're like start torealize, oh, you've been
consenting to quite a bit of sexthat you don't want.
That probably isn't helpful foryour desire.
What do you do with yourtraining, your lens?
Where are you going to go?
Anne (30:37):
I think probably in my early assessment pieces I might
be able to pull out some ofthose insidious messages, right,
or at least you know, even fromlooking at when this person was
born and what media they wereexposed to, right, because I
(30:59):
really like to just drop thatseed with folks.
So maybe you don't know howmedia or porn has impacted your
relationship that you have rightnow, but I want you, now that
I'm talking about it, to juststart paying attention.
Let's start seeing what models,what possibility models you're
seeing around sexuality, right,and then that kind of creates
some openness for them to payattention to how they've been
(31:21):
socialized around sex with thatmedia piece.
So I feel like just a littlepsychoeducation of that social
learning, how some of the thingsI've told you about how the
media is controlled and how theytalk about relationships, let's
just kind of set that, drop alittle seed, set that down, let
them resonate in that for alittle while while we continue
(31:42):
to do this work.
And then, you know, coming fromlike a trauma-informed lens,
one of the first stops I think Iwould be at is looking at
somatic attunement.
Does the partner, right, knowwhat's going on with their body?
Can they identify, sometimes,just for simplicity's sake, in
(32:04):
the beginning of therapy, I drawa thermometer and I have that
green, that yellow, maybe burntorange and red and we're just
getting to know, you know thosedifferent states that our body
can be in, and I have themchecking in, check in every once
in a while and see what's goingon and tell me you know how.
Where are you normally writing?
(32:25):
At Right, and when you all arespending time together, where
are you writing at?
So that's like that individualattunement.
And then I bring in this otherpiece when we start talking
about sex is what is the partnernoticing?
And then I bring in this otherpiece when we start talking
about sex is what is the partnernoticing?
Are you noticing that she isnot into it, or are you just
(32:46):
like going in and having a goodtime and have no idea what this
person's experience is?
And then, if you are noticing,what are you noticing?
Well, I noticed that she tensesup like this.
I noticed that a vein happenslike this.
I noticed that she won't lookat me.
Right, there's different cues.
Ok, so you saw that cue.
Then what are you doing withthat cue?
Some people like I just try toget done and finish, or I stop
Right and then, and so justhaving that understanding of
(33:10):
what's going on in my own body,body, what am I visually seeing
happening in my partner?
And hopefully sometimes thateven brings empathy right, if
you see it.
And then maybe you haven't beensaying for a long time oh, I
see her even have a tear comedown.
She says everything's fine andto keep going, but there's this
tear going down and I'm tryingto keep going, right, and it's
(33:33):
just kind of getting an ideainto the actual cycle.
I need to know is thereawareness?
Is there no awareness at allwith the partner having sex with
your body when you're notreally into it?
Yeah, and then kind of workingfrom that little point right
there and those areconversations.
Cami (33:51):
Maybe they've never had of analyzing the script of their
normal sexual encounter, right,because we're not talking about
at home, not going to be at achurch, not talking about at
school, when we go to thetherapy office, I have to think
for the first time what I dothat and then they do that, and
then I and I feel like this andthey feel like like that's huge.
Anne (34:10):
It's so new to slow that down and really think about it
slow that down and really thinkabout it, yeah, and so what I
try to have clients do is tostay within that window of
tolerance, right?
So if we feel ourselvescreeping up into that that
yellow part, we have to do, wehave to do an intervention on
(34:31):
ourselves.
We have to make sure that we,if we're going to you know, use
this is the brain, right.
I tell them you can't makesexual decisions when you're
activated, so we need to makesure, before you creep up into
activation mode, that you canslow down, do your, you know
(34:52):
whatever it is that you do, yourbreathing, because when we can
slow that down, then you canhave discernment.
If you have to slow down, havediscernment.
Do I want to do this, yes or no?
And if it's no, then we knowthat you're hiking up again into
a different color and we needto stay within our window of
tolerance.
Cami (35:13):
I love how you phrase that , because I've worked with
couples before who said, well,she calms down and so we can go
again.
And you're like no, we calmdown so we can have discernment,
so we can keep going.
We need to have a conversation,you know, we need to have some
our, our, we need to.
I love just how you use thatdiscernment, but that's why
we're calming down, Not so wecan keep going without her
(35:35):
having a panic attack orwhatever the thing is.
Anne (35:37):
Yeah, discernment, and then we'll follow it up with
consent.
We're waiting for thatenthusiastic yes, I want to
continue, not, yeah, okay, mynervous system calmed down
enough for you to continue to dothat thing.
That makes me uncomfortableagain, yeah, so the other thing
(35:58):
I'll do too is I'll take myvulva puppet and with that
trauma, you know idea, and Igive some psycho education
around.
Um, literally, you know, I, I,I try to do this as tender as I
can, but, um, the way like amedical field would think about
sex, right, like is, uh, is anactual trauma.
This isn't a trauma, right.
Even just hitting it around canis a is an actual trauma.
This isn't a trauma, right.
Even just hitting it around canis a.
What in the medical field, is atrauma.
(36:21):
And so when you have that trauma, your body, uh, starts to
protect you from that trauma.
So, right, I show my mobilepillow right.
And then, when you're trying toget in there, it's just like
this, this tightness, right.
And so we, if there's ever thistightness, then we're not
having sex.
That's not what we're doing.
We come up with a list of howare we going to co-regulate or
(36:44):
is it just individual regulationthat we need?
But what are we going to do?
Right?
Because all you're doing istelling your body that when this
starts to happen, then we gotto do this Right, and so explain
to them that trauma responseand then, like that, opening up
like a flower, if it's a yes,then you want them breathing
(37:05):
into your body, relaxing yourbody because of that brain body
connection Right.
And so your body might betelling your brain we need to
freak out, or your brain'stelling your body you got to
freak out.
We have to be in that green andopen.
If that's what we want to bedoing, and if you see, if it's
the partner, if you see yourpartner doing this, this isn't
(37:26):
the time to even try to do that.
Right, it's, it's the lockeddoor.
Now we need the open door right, right.
Cami (37:34):
I've never seen someone use their vulva pillow that way.
It was fantastic to see yourepresent, like what happens
with vaginismus, but also justthe clench response.
We don't have to havevaginismus to uh brace down to
protect ourselves.
That's just so instinctual tobrace down, you know, and not
conducive at all to consensual,mutually enjoyable sex you're
(37:56):
just kind of perpetuating atleast that somatic experience,
even when maybe no threat isthere.
Anne (38:02):
How can we say yes and be enthusiastic when our body keeps
on doing that, because that'swhat we've continued to let
happen for the last 10 years inthe relationship?
Cami (38:11):
and we frame it as something going wrong.
But I'm hearing you say this issomething going right.
This is what happens whenthere's a danger.
This is what our body isdesigned to do to help us, and
so we have to work with thatidea of needing safety for it to
open up, instead of justthinking there's something going
wrong.
Just muscle through, just youknow.
Anne (38:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's my buy-in of whyyou don't muscle through is
because you're just perpetuatingthat tension when we really
need relaxation.
Cami (38:43):
Absolutely.
Anne (38:50):
Also I just wrote down that, deconstructing those
colonial narratives attached tosex and relationship.
I do that quite a bit in youknow history, lesson or little.
You know whatever I can do hereand there.
And you know, just like in sextherapy, we learn a lot about
where people get these messagesand we give them the space to
say is this something you wantto hold on to or is this
(39:11):
something you want to get rid of?
And that's the same with howwe're thinking about some of
this colonial hangover in sexand relationship.
Is it really important for thisrelationship that it does
adhere to a patriarchal modeland that's what they both feel
comfortable with?
And I have to work within thatright.
But at least I'm giving someeducation.
I'm trying to see where we canmake some movement in detangling
(39:34):
some of these larger messagesand how they're infiltrating
into the dutiful life orwhatever's happening in that
moment.
Cami (39:45):
And making it a conscious choice instead of just an
implicit belief, bringing it tothe awareness of are you both
choosing this?
Anne (39:53):
It's something that I don't do with my clients, but
something that a lot of mysupervisees do, which I thought
would be good here, is usinglike betty martin's wheel of
consent or like the three minigame.
Have other folks brought thatthat?
Cami (40:07):
into the space.
No, but I've I've thought ofthat too, that that would
absolutely be something we dohere.
Go ahead, ahead and talk aboutit, because I would love to hear
your thoughts too.
Anne (40:18):
Just as a tangible intervention of what it actually
looks like.
That giving and that receivingright, that being able to ask
and say, right, what is okay,what you're okay with, I think,
are big steps, and when we thinkabout, like, what specific
(40:38):
interventions do we have acrossthe board that people have
access to, that's the one thatcomes to mind.
Cami (40:45):
Yeah, yeah, I love her work.
I'm so happy to see it growingand her publishing a book and
everything.
And I think a cool part is alsounderstanding what touches for
you and what touches for yourpartner in the way that you
brought up, you know thestereotypes and porn of people
(41:06):
of color, to be able to havethat skill of attunement in the
way that you were describing of,way that you were describing of
.
Even if I am reaching out totouch my partner, it can
sometimes be for me, not forthem, you know.
But I see a lot of couplessaying you know I'm doing this
for you, but if they don't likewhat you're doing, it's not for
(41:27):
them, you know.
Anne (41:30):
Yeah, it also made me think of something else.
That I do too is just kind ofmapping people's sexual script
so we can see where on thattimeline is.
Is it really unwanted?
Is it in the very beginning,right with that first initiation
, or is it with that touch thathe's giving me, that he thinks I
(41:51):
want and I just can't say Ireally don't, I don't, don't
like that.
You know, that's too hard andI'm not going to say that and
that's when that period of now Idon't want to do it happens
Right.
But if we can get like thatwhole script kind of laid out
right, we can kind of map outwhere it's happening and then
(42:12):
again bring in the partner.
Are you seeing it happeninghere?
Cami (42:32):
Right, how much insight do you have to the cycle that's
happening and after that of'snew?
A little bit new to me.
I've thought about, you know,checking how she feeling before,
during and after, but to beable to identify.
It's when these things happenthat I switch from enthusiastic
and consent to I'd rather not bedoing this you've talked a
(42:54):
little bit about, but what doyou see as the answer of
preventing this for youngerwomen?
Anne (43:02):
I did touch on it, but I do think we need, like
collective acknowledgement Rightnow.
This isn't a sharedacknowledgement that we have,
right, like you, busted opensomething, but it's not common
knowledge, right, and that'swhat we needed to be understood
by everyone and it's a commonknowledge.
For us to stand on first To saythis isn't helpful.
(43:25):
Yeah, yes, right, this isn'tthe way we should be having sex.
Cami (43:30):
There's negative outcomes.
If this is a longstandingpattern, that's better said yes.
Anne (43:37):
Right, but right now that's not common knowledge.
I don't think so.
Cami (43:41):
I think, I don't think that it is.
Anne (43:47):
I think once we hear it, we all go, oh hell, yeah, right.
So it's that communalacknowledgement, the communal
healing, just like the Me Toomovement.
I think a lot of people can doso much work in the individual
therapy session.
But we also need that from oursisters, our aunties, our other
women that we're in communitywith, to also have that shared
(44:10):
common ground that we can.
Because we get gaslit, like Isaid, we get gaslit out of the
experience, but we needeverybody to be on the same page
so we can normalize and havethat healing actually start.
Because if you find out inindividual therapy, then you go
out into the world and they'retelling you you're crazy, you
know, just put up with it.
Right, it's again that push andpull is holding back that
(44:35):
actual healing, not just for theindividual but for us
collectively, right?
Also, I think it would bereally important because I don't
do like premarital therapy.
If anything, I've done somepre-commitment work before
around sex.
But how profound would it be ifeven the churches added a
(44:59):
component of this into theirpre-commitment therapy modality,
right, if it was just a part ofthis manualized.
We're going to hit this part soeverybody in church knows.
Cami (45:11):
I'm only smiling because I'm imagining trying to sell
this, the church, and imaginingthe kind of resistance that it
might provoke.
Anne (45:24):
You know, it is possible, right, and so I always like to
start with the least resistance.
Right can give the leader ofthe church some concrete data,
like you've already produced,right, and then explain to them
what is happening in their heart.
They don't want their uh, theirmembers to be suffering.
(45:47):
And also adding, you know whenI'm thinking about?
Like general therapists, likean lmft, they only get three to
five credits of human sexuality,right, and then they're trying
to treat sexological issues, andsometimes, when it comes to
theology, it's almost worse,right, because it's not a lot of
times that sex positiveeducation that's actually making
(46:09):
it into that three to fivecredits, but offering them the
tools that they need to beinformed.
I think, with that insight,they would only want to not
everybody, but they would onlywant to help in this part where
they're just lacking someknowledge about this dynamic
(46:35):
we're discussing and how itinterplays with a diagnosis of
hypoactive desire or interestdisorder.
Cami (46:43):
Like yeah, I had.
Is this low desire or is thissomething else?
These women well.
Anne (46:52):
I pulled out my to really be like, let me really.
I got it out here.
I actually have the page open.
I shut it for to make somespace all night, but it kind of
reminds me.
Let's just think about, like,race and trauma.
Right, there's no racial trauma, but we have the trauma.
(47:13):
We can see where maybe it fitsin.
We don't have complex PTSD, butwe can see where it fits in so
it could be built into thediagnostic features I feel like
associated features supportingdiagnosis.
Right, they always are brushingon relational factors.
(47:35):
So another part that I thoughtI could go into is the risk in
well, I can't say the word nowfactors, but it does a
subcategory of environmental.
So environmental factorsinclude relationship
difficulties.
So, yes, this is a relationshipdifficulty, but that is such a
(47:56):
broad term that's not breakingit down into right, this
unwanted piece of you know, sex.
Cami (48:06):
That unknown variable that you mentioned.
Yeah, right, and so I thinkthat we could.
Anne (48:12):
You know, like a lot of times we use this and we know
all these other parts of why youknow this person has depression
or this person has anxiety andthose criteria aren't in the dsm
.
It feels like it could fit here, right, but we just know the
added information to the contextof why it's there true, it
doesn't say your mom underdepression.
(48:32):
Right.
Cami (48:33):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Anne (48:37):
But it gives you the wiggle room, though right Coming
to that justification by, byseveral times, just saying
relational issues.
It's all over in this, but what?
What does that?
Cami (48:51):
I mean they're not defining it Right, so they're
leaving it broad enough for usto throw it in there is what I,
I feel like so often the womanself-diagnosed herself with I
have a desire disorder or that,or the partner has, or you know
and trying to figure out wheredoes context and dynamic
(49:11):
interplay with diagnosis?
You know, that was great.
I like.
I like how you saw that and howyou, and then it gives you
another piece, too, with theculture related diagnostic
issues.
Anne (49:23):
Right, if we did bring in some of the pieces we talked
today about specifically blackbodies, right, we could add it
into that piece and then alsogender-related diagnostic
features well the gender is thatwe are in a massively
patriarchal society which has astronghold on human sexuality in
(49:44):
modern day, right?
So it's just all this wigglingto maneuver which I feel like
diagnosing is a lot of the time.
Cami (49:51):
Yeah, yeah, Agreed.
Do you have additional thoughts?
Your op ed kind of commentarythat I might you know things
that you thought of that Ididn't think to ask.
Anne (50:02):
We all collectively need to have a basic understanding of
how anti-Black our society isand that misogynoir is at the
forefront of this right.
That hatred against Black womenis they're not getting the
support, they're not getting theresources, they're not getting
that communal healing right thatthey need.
(50:25):
They're always getting pushed,pushed down, doing the most
labor and getting the push downfor for the support, and so
whatever interventions orwhatever you know
conceptualizations, we have tothink, we have to put that at
the forefront when we're lookingat working with black women.
Cami (50:43):
that that is the context, that is the backdrop of their
experience and you can correctme if I'm wrong, but I think, as
far as research goes, we'rejust starting to do that.
We're just starting to say, hey, does this intervention, this
actually gotman intervention?
We've been doing with whitefolks all the time, does it
translate?
Well, and they're starting todo some of that.
(51:04):
What interventions and what?
What?
Anne (51:10):
interventions and what changes need to be made
culturally.
And I think again, this is allsaying that white people are at
the forefront of makingdecisions for Black people's
healing and instead of trying tomold a white model to, you know
, black folks, why don't we giveBlack clinicians the space to
create interventions for us?
(51:31):
Why don't we get the funding orthe support to talk about how
we can create healing within ourown communities?
But we're on the pedestal oflooking at white folks and then
trying to mold it to work for us.
Cami (51:46):
Thanks for pointing that out.
Anne (51:48):
Not giving Black people the voice to say, hey, this is
what we actually need.
We're waiting for the whitedude to tell us what we can have
.
Cami (51:56):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, thanks for pointing that out.
That's true.
I'm going through interventions.
And who created them?
They're all older white men.
You know.
Anne (52:13):
Yeah, so the the problem that a lot of like BIPOC, a like
within asex community, is a lotof our supervisees come to us
like, well then, what is theanswer?
What do we do?
It's like, well, we're tiredright now, we can't recreate
this wheel.
But this is for those thatyounger cohort that we're
bringing in to create right,we're giving them those tools to
(52:35):
start to have that spaceBecause historically, right,
it's very ableist.
Cis, white, couple-centric isthe only way you got your foot
in the door.
But we have the responsibilityof letting that younger cohort
get a foot in the door.
But we have the responsibilityof letting that younger cohort
get a foot in the door so theycan create are you seeing that
cohort grow?
(52:57):
yes, I feel like even the cohortbefore me bust the door open.
I gotta walk through, and nowthese other folks are going to
be tearing it up.
Cami (53:06):
I believe so oh good, Awesome.
So sometimes we're talkingabout systemic change.
Anne (53:22):
It feels so long, but I'm so glad to hear you say that
this part of the systemic changeyou're seeing happen without
taking it we haven't created.
Right, right, we don't have youknow as many different models,
as many different experts whosenames are accessible to people's
mouths, right, like emilynagowski, esther perel, we know
you know people who are not inthe sex world know that.
But ask you, know them who is ablack sexologist who is doing
(53:45):
this work?
It's going to be harder forthem to retrieve a name.
We need to make it moreaccessible.
Cami (53:52):
I'm really pleased to meet you.
Thanks so much, I reallyappreciate it.
Anne (53:56):
Yeah, it's good to meet you and thank you for doing the
work.
Cami (53:58):
Yeah, we'll talk soon.
Okay, Okay thanks Bye Anne you.
Hi sex therapy.
101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me, and one ofthose is a book for the public
(00:30):
about my research aboutregarding long-term outcomes of
consenting to unwanted sex, orduty sex as we sometimes call it
, and in doing that, adding tomy own research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because these were
all recorded over the course ofa year and I wanted to talk to
(00:53):
experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
(01:17):
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
Now I'll give you a little bitof a bio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
(01:37):
I hope you enjoyed thisinterview with Ann Morrow as
much as I did.
She is a licensed marriage andfamily therapist, a certified
sex therapist through ASECT, aswell as a clinical supervisor.
She has a lot of training andshe has a lot of expertise and
experience.
She has a private practicebased out of Washington State
and she has two publicationsthat I want to highlight.
(02:00):
One is called More Than Ebonyand Ivory, and another called
Centering the Lives ofIndigenous, racialized and
People of Color in theColonization of Black
Sexualities.
This is a clinical guide torelearning and healing and is a
continued service to thesexuality community by serving
(02:22):
as the ASEC Westernrepresentative, which is
fantastic.
I really hope you enjoy thisconversation with that I had
with Anne.
Anne (02:30):
Hi, anne, hi, how's it going Good, can you see and hear
me?
Cami (02:36):
okay, I can Same for you, yes, so I'm really, I'm really
grateful that you're willing tohave this conversation, and it's
really generous.
I appreciate your time and yourexpertise and just the place
you hold in the world right now.
So thank you.
Anne (03:00):
Well, thank you for actually doing this work,
because this is really a pocketthat I haven't seen really
talked about so much, and so I'mglad that you did that research
, that you're continuing on withit with the book, and then
especially grateful that you'relooking at other populations
right, because you noticed thatsome people just kind of run
with that and publish, but thatyou're doing something.
I appreciate that.
Cami (03:18):
Trying to trying to.
So thank you for taking thetime to watch the video and
learn about my research and withyour lens, because you're an
expert in the world of sexualityand relationships and you saw
that research.
What did you see happening Like?
How did you interpret thoseresults?
Anne (03:38):
Or that idea.
Well, I'm interpreting it asthe, the unknown or unspoken
variable.
That's probably in a lot of ourwork that you're actually
surfacing and giving language to, and giving experience to that
people can resonate with and belike oh yeah, right, that is
(04:00):
what I'm doing, right, I don'treally want to be having sex
when I'm doing it and then Ifeel'm doing right, I don't
really want to be having sexwhen I'm doing it and then I
feel this feeling right, but Idon't think that people have
language around that experience.
Cami (04:13):
I like the language you just gave me of this is one of
an unknown variable, like we can, there's a dozen roads that
lead to I don't know if I wantto have sex right, and this is
putting a name to one of thosevariables that we don't talk
about.
I appreciate that.
That was, that was nicelanguage, and so then, if we're
taking a cultural lens someonewho you know comes from the
(04:36):
Black community, works withBlack community researches
rights like this is thisintersection of sexuality?
This intersection of sexuality?
What are some aspects,historically or even current,
you know, of Black communityculture that might keep women
consenting to sex they don'twant?
Anne (05:09):
I think that's a really good question and I have a
couple of different thoughts,but the major backdrop of what I
think of as modern day Americansexuality is under the umbrella
of still these colonial ideasof sexuality.
Think about how we aremimicking the nuclear family
structure that was imposed uponpeople in our area, the
indigenous native people, by theEnglish settlers, who really
(05:35):
mimicked a family structureunder a common law somebody who
is in power, a male right who isin power to tend and care for
the wife and children, just likethe state where the king was to
tend to the people as thehusband is to care for the wife
(05:55):
and the children.
So putting this man into thisposition of power, I think is
the backdrop of all of whatwe're seeing right.
And then, if we take that lensof that colonial ideology and
how historically people of color, black people, have been
treated in the realm ofsexuality, where they had no
(06:17):
autonomy over reproduction right, they didn't have a way to
consent to sexual activity, Ithink that we have to use that
as a backdrop when we'rethinking about this, of where we
come from historically, withthe patriarchy, with the race,
with the anti-Blackness, withthe misogynoir right.
Yeah, it's all embedded into thestructure.
(06:39):
That's baseline.
That's baseline, yeah, that'sthe baseline, part of it, yeah,
so I like what you're you'rebringing into.
We can bring in these conceptsof patriarchy into all parts of
this research, right, but whenwe're looking at the black
community, it's especiallydifferent due to, um, the
(07:01):
american descendants of slavery,right, yeah, but also when
teasing apart, like, what isBlackness in this study?
Right, that's a really big,also umbrella, term, sure, so
have you heard the termethno-sexuality before?
No, teach me, it's just theintersection between race and
(07:22):
sex, right?
Cami (07:24):
Okay, I think I just used the whole phrase.
We've got a term.
Okay, thank you yeah.
Anne (07:29):
So when we're looking at blackness and sexuality, I think
we also can dig a little bitdeeper in.
Are they American descendantsof slavery?
Are they Afro-Latinx, are theyAfro-Caribbean, are they
biracial black people?
Because I think too, inside ofthat, when we start to dig
(07:50):
through different messaging thatdifferent groups of people are
getting, we're going to seedifferent subsets within the
black community absolutely,absolutely right that are going
to contribute to why we've beenable to kind of perpetuate this
consensual, unwanted sexualactivity, right, because of
(08:11):
different messages that comefrom the different subsets of
people.
So, again, with that historicalcomponent, women have not been
in a position where they canspeak for their own wants and
desires, right, there's a realselflessness that comes under
that right.
And depending on what pocket ofBlack folks we're talking about
(08:36):
, but Christian supremacy reignssuperior within the Black
community, right, and so,thinking about how that mimics
in the family structure, thatcolonial idea of the man is on
top right and we are subservientto whatever desires that they
have and we need to be obedientto this person at the sacrifice
(09:00):
of ourselves, no matter whatthat looks like.
And you know, also, culturallyspeaking, I don't think that
we're talking a lot about sexpresently or historically, it's
not within, you know, community.
We're not talking about sex inchurch unless it's like
premarital counseling, it mightcome in.
(09:22):
We're not talking to ourchildren, we're not talking to
our parents.
So there's this hush aroundsexuality, knowing that there's
some kind of dominance andcontrol happening, but we're not
actually in a place to havelanguage or talk about it within
the communities.
(09:43):
So then I have another one.
I think mass media contributesto everybody, right, like not
just the Black folks.
When we think about how themedia really impacts us through
social learning, right, we arelearning all kinds of implicit
(10:04):
messages on how to treat eachother.
We're learning, and also it's agood reminder to say,
historically and majority, now,present day, all of the people
that are in charge of the mediaare white, cis men, and how they
want to portray black bodies inin films.
They might say, oh, this is ablack film, but you think who's
the writer in films?
(10:25):
They might say, oh, this is aBlack film, but you think who's
the writer, who's the producerof this?
Right, and a lot of times youwill find that there's white
people behind creating thenarratives around sexuality.
So that's like with just thegeneral media, right, it's not a
very good model for us inthinking about consent and
(10:48):
boundaries or putting women inpositions of sexual empowerment
to make their own sexualdecisions.
It's just, it's really not.
I'm like they just had aconsent conversation before they
, you know, did anything.
I'm loving how they're startingto implement it, but depending
(11:11):
on your age, you can really seehow the media, you know, has
impacted your ideas aroundboundaries, consent, autonomy
over your body.
So that's the media part.
And if we trickle down toerotica or pornography, as a lot
of people say, I don't thinkpeople really are grounded in
(11:35):
the fact that I have a stat hereit says sex education was the
primary reason that BIPOCteenagers and young adults
viewed pornography.
This is coming from CarolineWest.
She's out here in Tacoma,washington.
She came from UW.
The main reason BIPOC teenagersare watching pornography is for
(11:59):
sex education.
They want the education, theywant the education, education,
they want the education, theywant the education.
But unfortunately, what they'reseeing again is white cis males
who are funding producing,directing, and we know that for
that, black, latina and Asianwomen have a higher likelihood
(12:20):
of being featured in physicalaggression more than their white
counterparts, right, and sothere's this implicit.
I feel like it's a holdover fromthe colonial days that we can
treat Black and brown women acertain way.
It may not, like we talkedabout earlier, be in that
(12:42):
cognitive, you know, forefrontof the mind.
There's like these implicitmessages that are just so
insidious in our culture that weadopt that as a learning theory
.
Even if you're like I'm notracist, we have our biases that
we are actually gaining fromwhat we're watching all the time
, and so also in pornography.
(13:04):
Bipoc men weredisproportionately depicted as
the aggressors in pornography,right, and so if you're learning
, then you're learning that Ineed to be the aggressor, I need
to level up and demonstratewhat I'm seeing, to be a good
lover or to be good in bed.
And the problem too with thisis that what you're missing in
(13:28):
the pornography is those consentconversations that might happen
before or the aftercare thathappens after.
We're only getting thataggressive piece of pornography
without any context.
Cami (13:42):
And no range of expression without any context and no
range of expression.
It sounds like you know real.
Yes, just staying on theaggressive without saying a
whole range of sexual expressionthat might not include
aggression.
Anne (13:55):
Right, and on that, here's another one that Wes comes up
with.
She says that, compared towhite couples, Black women,
Black men and women demonstratedless intimacy in pornography,
defined as kissing using theother person's name, caressing,
having intercourse face-to-faceand talking to each other during
sex.
So we're creating a wholepopulation of kiddos coming up
(14:19):
underneath us, getting theireducation, viewing this and
learning that, right, this ishow you do sex, right, In this
aggressive way, in this takingwhat you want, and there's a
lack of intimacy when it comesto the Black body part, Right?
So what I think is it'snormalizing a certain kind of
(14:45):
violence or another type ofpatriarchal rule over the female
body, with these implicitmessages of taking and violence
and consent doesn't matter,boundaries don't matter
aggression.
You know all of that is justkind of interwoven into the
(15:06):
pornography.
And then when we step outsideof porn and look at just real
life, we know that for everyblack woman that reports a rape,
there's 15.
That don't.
Is that the statistic?
Cami (15:23):
I think I've only heard the general.
I don't think I've heard itbroken down by demographic.
Anne (15:28):
Right, it's like the one in three or whatever, but that's
staggering this violencebecause we're not talking about
it, right, we don't feel safe togo to the law, we don't feel
(15:48):
safe to tell our friend, hey,this thing happened.
And then we don't have commonknowledge, where a friend turns
and says, hey, that's not okay.
Right, because sometimes we'reactually normalizing, um the
behavior.
Oh, just just give him what hewants, just, do you know, keep
having sex and make him happy,right?
Instead of the other personturning and saying, hey, this
actually isn't right and let'stalk about you know how we can
(16:11):
make this better for you.
We put women in a position tosuffer, have been raped, but two
out of five have been survivorsof some sort of physical
violence, sexual violence or arape.
(16:33):
So those are the numbers.
Again, just normalizing thisbottom-down position, this
sexual subservient space thatBlack bodies are supposed to be
in, does that make sense?
Cami (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, and and it's not the thing that's standing
out to me is it's not staying ahistorical idea because of where
education is coming from andthat entertainment being
produced to consume.
It's not going to like age outthis, these ideas, right, it's
not like they're going to ageout with the next generation
(17:05):
because they're being promoted,not at the rate that we are
right now.
Anne (17:12):
Right, it would take some pretty big, drastic changes, I
think, for it to improve.
When this is the only placethat they are getting education
and when we think about rightnow, there's threats to sex
education being in curriculum,there's threats to critical race
theory being in curriculum, andwe see already from this talk
(17:32):
today is that there's a directlink in between what has
happened historically and wherewe are here now with this
sexuality, but that beingomitted from education is
omitted from common knowledge,right, and so it's almost this
gaslighting effect if you canrecognize that the harm is being
done.
Cami (17:50):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
I mean, it's not fantastic thatit's happening, but thank you
for teaching me because it'sfantastic that we can open our
eyes a little bit at a time,more and more and more, to see
the systemic things that keepchurning dynamics that are not
helpful for any of us, nothealthy.
Would you have additionalthoughts before I go to the next
(18:13):
one?
I don't want to rush you on thatone okay, what about, then,
certain aspects of you knowcommunity values, norms, beliefs
that might protect or might,you know, challenge the idea and
might help women to not consent?
Anne (18:30):
Yeah, the first thing that I thought of when I read that
was the Me Too movement.
Right, because it's amatriarchal, it's women led by
Black women, you know,originating for Black voices and
other AFAB bodies.
But if you look at it it looksmore around like sexual assault,
(18:51):
right, that sexual trauma, andnot so much what that I'm going
to call it a trauma, what thattrauma is within intimate
relationships, that you'recommitted relationship when
that's happening, right?
So that's why, again, I'm nothearing anybody talking about
that piece, but I felt like thatmovement, something where we
(19:12):
could have recognition fromother Black women or women of
color talking to women of colorabout what is being seen like
your work, right, with a blacklens put on it, being delivered
to the black community so we canhave it as a common knowledge
and shared language.
(19:32):
I think would be really, reallyhelpful.
I can't change this but newmedia resources, for example,
because, like I said, in the 80sis when I grew up and you would
have a woman who would say noand the guy would be like yes
and she'd be like no and evenslap him, and then all of a
(19:52):
sudden they're kissing, makingout and having and it's really
confusing, messaging, but right,it's like your.
Cami (19:57):
No doesn't actually matter , but my name is part of the
game or part of the chase, orpart of the yeah, yeah so
watching films with my um kiddowho's 11, she's loves
heartstopper right now.
Anne (20:12):
Have you seen heartstopper ?
Okay, so it's, it's queer, butthey have one black trans girl
on there who starts her datingjourney and in that she's able
to really articulate.
You get to see what comes upfor her in sexual scenarios,
(20:34):
somatically.
You see her then communicate toher partner about what is going
on and then you see him holdingany kind of boundaries and
asking for consent to doanything past or even adjacent
to something she may havementioned that was uncomfortable
for her.
That didn't happen when I was akiddo, no, no.
(20:58):
So if we could have more peoplemaking films like this, right,
cause if they're getting it fromporn, they're getting it from
TV.
They're not getting it fromtheir parents, they're not
getting it from their church,right?
So if this is what they'reactually getting and learning
about relationship, then we haveto switch mass media and how
we're looking at sex.
That's not perpetuating theharm.
(21:20):
Yeah, I think too that womengaining access to leadership
roles, opportunities within evensports, right, sports is very
patriarchal, right.
They let us have a couplethings right, but not even all
sports right.
(21:40):
And then they'll let us have asport, but they don't put us on
primetime TV, right?
You might not even get thechannel that plays your niece
who's playing professionalbasketball.
It'll be really hard toactually watch her, unless you
buy that extra package forwomen's sports, right?
Oh yeah, we have so manydifferent Fox or not Fox Sports,
(22:02):
but we have so many differentsports channels that are just
carved out for men's sports,right?
Whippy Goldberg, of all people,is now opening her own channel
that will only be showingwomen's sports on that channel
24-7.
It's that kind of visibility,right, putting us in positions
where we can be strong, we canbe empowered, we don't have to
(22:25):
be subservient, we are equal to,but we get mixed messages when
we can't really be at the samelevel.
There's always a hierarchy over.
So I feel like when we canstart moving into these
different positions of powerthat can be seen by younger
people, then that can build someof that sexual self-esteem,
(22:49):
because it's not being modeledthat you're subservient.
Does that make sense?
Cami (22:53):
Yeah, and I'm hearing you say what might have to happen
before just these sexualassertiveness skills is
developing them in all areas ofour life so that it's it's
natural, it's common sense, it's.
This is how I live my life.
It's like rejecting thesubservient nature in in all
(23:13):
areas will probably make iteasier than to reject
subservientness in a sexualcontext.
Instead of my lens, you know,instead of just looking at it so
narrow, of how do we empowerwomen to say what they want
sexually, why would theysexually if they couldn't
(23:34):
professionally, or that's whatI'm hearing you say.
Those are that where my, wheremy mind's going from what you're
teaching me, you know, yeah.
Anne (23:41):
Yeah, and another thing I think about is when working with
kiddos and sex ed right, like alot of people are like how do
we help kiddos like use theright language and do all this?
And it's like, yeah, but whathappens if this kiddo that you
just did brilliant sex ed workgoes home and tells her mom, oh,
it's not a vagina, it's a vulva.
And her mom clutches her pearlsand like, right, you're putting
(24:04):
her again into, like this gaslighting chamber right when I'm
learning something about myself.
But then you're setting me backinto this dysfunctional way of
thinking about sex and bodies.
And how do I exist in thatworld when the world is telling
me it's one way, but maybe Ilearned something else.
So maybe if you do it on anindividual level, they're still
(24:25):
in that insidious nature of allthese messages, saying something
different.
Yeah, because it's the backdropNot to be a Debbie Downer.
Cami (24:36):
They're serious subjects.
Anne (24:38):
Right.
Cami (24:40):
They feel like Downers.
Anne (24:41):
Often they do they do when this comes to like the Black
population specifically is wedon't really have models of
people talking about ethnosexuality in sitcoms or in
movies in a healthy way Right,we hear jokes, we get teased, we
(25:03):
have microaggressions, right,but we're not getting those
lessons built into the media.
So I think psychoeducation issuper important, right, I keep
talking about even having thatlanguage, right, even explaining
somatically what happens toyour body when you're
(25:24):
uncomfortable with something.
I think is is really, is reallybig.
And I think, in teaching theblack community about it, I
thought about doing it with,like, stories or examples, right
, bringing in something thatthey can resonate.
Instead of this fact is thisfact.
(25:45):
It's like, no, let's do somestorytelling around it so we can
personalize it and have someempathy and you know, and kind
of feel that validating like, ohyeah, right, we need to feel
that story rather than given thefacts is what I also feel and
which I feel like media could doso much with, since they're the
(26:06):
storytellers, they're narratingour era.
I think another piece that isreally big is just normalizing
and validating that there hasbeen either sexual boundary
crossing or having sex when youdidn't want to, and that that
can make you feel away Right.
(26:26):
I don't think we sit longenough to be like, wow, you know
what I mean.
You did something that didn'tfeel good to your body and that
makes sense.
I understand why that wouldn'tfeel like even sitting in that,
because it's that gaslightingagain like, oh, just give him
what he wants.
Oh, just, you know, maybe openyour relationship so you don't
(26:46):
have to be the one responsible.
And so, eventually sitting inthat feeling of what it has been
like for the last 10 years andthen to just now have your eyes
open to this is what washappening for the last 10 years.
You didn't know it, your bodyknew it, but your cognitions
didn't know it.
The other piece that I'll addinto this, which will be the
last piece, is actually thatcommunication skills building,
(27:09):
teaching people how tocommunicate those things,
because we don't have thelanguage around it.
We don't know how to language.
A lot of AFAB folks can't One.
If you ask like, what do youwant, want, what do you desire,
they can't drum that up fromwithin themselves, right, and
then when we get, to the spot.
Cami (27:28):
Yes, okay, you got it.
Go.
That's where it was that we, wepedestalize the sacrifice and
say, no, that makes you good.
And then women saying, but whydon't I feel good right after,
after I'm subservient sexuallylike it's supposed to be good,
it's supposed to be what'spraised in this patriarchal
structure, and depending on howmuch influence there is from
(27:49):
family or church, then and thenthat, conflicting with what you
just said, of listening to yourfeelings, but why don't I feel
good?
You know into your body thatretrospective we don't stop.
That was the thought.
Anne (28:02):
It's hard for folks to kind of feel that for themselves
.
But then if they get to a spotwhere they can say I really, I
really don't want to have sexafter you know, we were at the
Mariner game for 10 hours, right, and coming home, right, if
they can actually one figurethat out for themselves, right.
(28:24):
And then the other hard part ishow do I actually tell my
partner this without him?
I think one of your vignetteswas like the husband maybe had a
hissy fit or acted, you know,like a baby or you know what I
mean.
Like how do we communicate in away that's going to be
receptive, that our partnerhears and has empathy for,
(28:45):
rather than again belittles usor gives us, you know, a pout or
whatever it is to make us feelguilty for actually standing up
for what we want for ourselvesin our body?
Big missing chunk.
How do we communicate that?
Cami (29:04):
Absolutely, and no modeling for the other partner
of how to receive that.
Thank you so much for beinghonest to me.
I want our sexual relationshipto be mutually enjoyable.
I'm so glad you trust me withthat.
I'm sure that's hard to say.
Anne (29:17):
I know you don't want to disappoint me.
Cami (29:18):
You know those kinds of things, nobody's modeling,
accepting a no graciously,without creating distance, you
know.
Anne (29:27):
It's like they're, they're activated sometimes in their
own resent or rejection, right?
This rejection sensitivity ofsometimes some people feel like
they're owed, that like we're ina partnership you owe this to
me, we're married, you owe thisto me, right?
So again, with psychoeducation,that relationship mean
(29:48):
ownership ownership.
Cami (29:49):
Did you coin that phrase?
That was beautiful.
You're really great withlanguage, I'm glad.
Anne (29:54):
Okay, we, we need to make a t-shirt, and I already forgot
what I said.
Cami (29:58):
You have a background like I do in marriage and family
therapy.
We're both AAMFT supervisor.
I mean, that's kind of ourworld is a systemic lens.
If this couple lands on yourcouch, what do you see is going
to be helpful for them?
You've already described someof it.
But you've got, you know, theman obviously hurting the woman,
(30:20):
obviously avoidant and anxious,and sex hasn't been going well
for years.
And you're like start torealize, oh, you've been
consenting to quite a bit of sexthat you don't want.
That probably isn't helpful foryour desire.
What do you do with yourtraining, your lens?
Where are you going to go?
Anne (30:37):
I think probably in my early assessment pieces I might
be able to pull out some ofthose insidious messages, right,
or at least you know, even fromlooking at when this person was
born and what media they wereexposed to, right, because I
(30:59):
really like to just drop thatseed with folks.
So maybe you don't know howmedia or porn has impacted your
relationship that you have rightnow, but I want you, now that
I'm talking about it, to juststart paying attention.
Let's start seeing what models,what possibility models you're
seeing around sexuality, right,and then that kind of creates
some openness for them to payattention to how they've been
(31:21):
socialized around sex with thatmedia piece.
So I feel like just a littlepsychoeducation of that social
learning, how some of the thingsI've told you about how the
media is controlled and how theytalk about relationships, let's
just kind of set that, drop alittle seed, set that down, let
them resonate in that for alittle while while we continue
(31:42):
to do this work.
And then, you know, coming fromlike a trauma-informed lens,
one of the first stops I think Iwould be at is looking at
somatic attunement.
Does the partner, right, knowwhat's going on with their body?
Can they identify, sometimes,just for simplicity's sake, in
(32:04):
the beginning of therapy, I drawa thermometer and I have that
green, that yellow, maybe burntorange and red and we're just
getting to know, you know thosedifferent states that our body
can be in, and I have themchecking in, check in every once
in a while and see what's goingon and tell me you know how.
Where are you normally writing?
(32:25):
At Right, and when you all arespending time together, where
are you writing at?
So that's like that individualattunement.
And then I bring in this otherpiece when we start talking
about sex is what is the partnernoticing?
And then I bring in this otherpiece when we start talking
about sex is what is the partnernoticing?
Are you noticing that she isnot into it, or are you just
(32:46):
like going in and having a goodtime and have no idea what this
person's experience is?
And then, if you are noticing,what are you noticing?
Well, I noticed that she tensesup like this.
I noticed that a vein happenslike this.
I noticed that she won't lookat me.
Right, there's different cues.
Ok, so you saw that cue.
Then what are you doing withthat cue?
Some people like I just try toget done and finish, or I stop
Right and then, and so justhaving that understanding of
(33:10):
what's going on in my own body,body, what am I visually seeing
happening in my partner?
And hopefully sometimes thateven brings empathy right, if
you see it.
And then maybe you haven't beensaying for a long time oh, I
see her even have a tear comedown.
She says everything's fine andto keep going, but there's this
tear going down and I'm tryingto keep going, right, and it's
(33:33):
just kind of getting an ideainto the actual cycle.
I need to know is thereawareness?
Is there no awareness at allwith the partner having sex with
your body when you're notreally into it?
Yeah, and then kind of workingfrom that little point right
there and those areconversations.
Cami (33:51):
Maybe they've never had of analyzing the script of their
normal sexual encounter, right,because we're not talking about
at home, not going to be at achurch, not talking about at
school, when we go to thetherapy office, I have to think
for the first time what I dothat and then they do that, and
then I and I feel like this andthey feel like like that's huge.
Anne (34:10):
It's so new to slow that down and really think about it
slow that down and really thinkabout it, yeah, and so what I
try to have clients do is tostay within that window of
tolerance, right?
So if we feel ourselvescreeping up into that that
yellow part, we have to do, wehave to do an intervention on
(34:31):
ourselves.
We have to make sure that we,if we're going to you know, use
this is the brain, right.
I tell them you can't makesexual decisions when you're
activated, so we need to makesure, before you creep up into
activation mode, that you canslow down, do your, you know
(34:52):
whatever it is that you do, yourbreathing, because when we can
slow that down, then you canhave discernment.
If you have to slow down, havediscernment.
Do I want to do this, yes or no?
And if it's no, then we knowthat you're hiking up again into
a different color and we needto stay within our window of
tolerance.
Cami (35:13):
I love how you phrase that , because I've worked with
couples before who said, well,she calms down and so we can go
again.
And you're like no, we calmdown so we can have discernment,
so we can keep going.
We need to have a conversation,you know, we need to have some
our, our, we need to.
I love just how you use thatdiscernment, but that's why
we're calming down, Not so wecan keep going without her
(35:35):
having a panic attack orwhatever the thing is.
Anne (35:37):
Yeah, discernment, and then we'll follow it up with
consent.
We're waiting for thatenthusiastic yes, I want to
continue, not, yeah, okay, mynervous system calmed down
enough for you to continue to dothat thing.
That makes me uncomfortableagain, yeah, so the other thing
(35:58):
I'll do too is I'll take myvulva puppet and with that
trauma, you know idea, and Igive some psycho education
around.
Um, literally, you know, I, I,I try to do this as tender as I
can, but, um, the way like amedical field would think about
sex, right, like is, uh, is anactual trauma.
This isn't a trauma, right.
Even just hitting it around canis a is an actual trauma.
This isn't a trauma, right.
Even just hitting it around canis a.
What in the medical field, is atrauma.
(36:21):
And so when you have that trauma, your body, uh, starts to
protect you from that trauma.
So, right, I show my mobilepillow right.
And then, when you're trying toget in there, it's just like
this, this tightness, right.
And so we, if there's ever thistightness, then we're not
having sex.
That's not what we're doing.
We come up with a list of howare we going to co-regulate or
(36:44):
is it just individual regulationthat we need?
But what are we going to do?
Right?
Because all you're doing istelling your body that when this
starts to happen, then we gotto do this Right, and so explain
to them that trauma responseand then, like that, opening up
like a flower, if it's a yes,then you want them breathing
(37:05):
into your body, relaxing yourbody because of that brain body
connection Right.
And so your body might betelling your brain we need to
freak out, or your brain'stelling your body you got to
freak out.
We have to be in that green andopen.
If that's what we want to bedoing, and if you see, if it's
the partner, if you see yourpartner doing this, this isn't
(37:26):
the time to even try to do that.
Right, it's, it's the lockeddoor.
Now we need the open door right, right.
Cami (37:34):
I've never seen someone use their vulva pillow that way.
It was fantastic to see yourepresent, like what happens
with vaginismus, but also justthe clench response.
We don't have to havevaginismus to uh brace down to
protect ourselves.
That's just so instinctual tobrace down, you know, and not
conducive at all to consensual,mutually enjoyable sex you're
(37:56):
just kind of perpetuating atleast that somatic experience,
even when maybe no threat isthere.
Anne (38:02):
How can we say yes and be enthusiastic when our body keeps
on doing that, because that'swhat we've continued to let
happen for the last 10 years inthe relationship?
Cami (38:11):
and we frame it as something going wrong.
But I'm hearing you say this issomething going right.
This is what happens whenthere's a danger.
This is what our body isdesigned to do to help us, and
so we have to work with thatidea of needing safety for it to
open up, instead of justthinking there's something going
wrong.
Just muscle through, just youknow.
Anne (38:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's my buy-in of whyyou don't muscle through is
because you're just perpetuatingthat tension when we really
need relaxation.
Cami (38:43):
Absolutely.
Anne (38:50):
Also I just wrote down that, deconstructing those
colonial narratives attached tosex and relationship.
I do that quite a bit in youknow history, lesson or little.
You know whatever I can do hereand there.
And you know, just like in sextherapy, we learn a lot about
where people get these messagesand we give them the space to
say is this something you wantto hold on to or is this
(39:11):
something you want to get rid of?
And that's the same with howwe're thinking about some of
this colonial hangover in sexand relationship.
Is it really important for thisrelationship that it does
adhere to a patriarchal modeland that's what they both feel
comfortable with?
And I have to work within thatright.
But at least I'm giving someeducation.
I'm trying to see where we canmake some movement in detangling
(39:34):
some of these larger messagesand how they're infiltrating
into the dutiful life orwhatever's happening in that
moment.
Cami (39:45):
And making it a conscious choice instead of just an
implicit belief, bringing it tothe awareness of are you both
choosing this?
Anne (39:53):
It's something that I don't do with my clients, but
something that a lot of mysupervisees do, which I thought
would be good here, is usinglike betty martin's wheel of
consent or like the three minigame.
Have other folks brought thatthat?
Cami (40:07):
into the space.
No, but I've I've thought ofthat too, that that would
absolutely be something we dohere.
Go ahead, ahead and talk aboutit, because I would love to hear
your thoughts too.
Anne (40:18):
Just as a tangible intervention of what it actually
looks like.
That giving and that receivingright, that being able to ask
and say, right, what is okay,what you're okay with, I think,
are big steps, and when we thinkabout, like, what specific
(40:38):
interventions do we have acrossthe board that people have
access to, that's the one thatcomes to mind.
Cami (40:45):
Yeah, yeah, I love her work.
I'm so happy to see it growingand her publishing a book and
everything.
And I think a cool part is alsounderstanding what touches for
you and what touches for yourpartner in the way that you
brought up, you know thestereotypes and porn of people
(41:06):
of color, to be able to havethat skill of attunement in the
way that you were describing of,way that you were describing of
.
Even if I am reaching out totouch my partner, it can
sometimes be for me, not forthem, you know.
But I see a lot of couplessaying you know I'm doing this
for you, but if they don't likewhat you're doing, it's not for
(41:27):
them, you know.
Anne (41:30):
Yeah, it also made me think of something else.
That I do too is just kind ofmapping people's sexual script
so we can see where on thattimeline is.
Is it really unwanted?
Is it in the very beginning,right with that first initiation
, or is it with that touch thathe's giving me, that he thinks I
(41:51):
want and I just can't say Ireally don't, I don't, don't
like that.
You know, that's too hard andI'm not going to say that and
that's when that period of now Idon't want to do it happens
Right.
But if we can get like thatwhole script kind of laid out
right, we can kind of map outwhere it's happening and then
(42:12):
again bring in the partner.
Are you seeing it happeninghere?
Cami (42:32):
Right, how much insight do you have to the cycle that's
happening and after that of'snew?
A little bit new to me.
I've thought about, you know,checking how she feeling before,
during and after, but to beable to identify.
It's when these things happenthat I switch from enthusiastic
and consent to I'd rather not bedoing this you've talked a
(42:54):
little bit about, but what doyou see as the answer of
preventing this for youngerwomen?
Anne (43:02):
I did touch on it, but I do think we need, like
collective acknowledgement Rightnow.
This isn't a sharedacknowledgement that we have,
right, like you, busted opensomething, but it's not common
knowledge, right, and that'swhat we needed to be understood
by everyone and it's a commonknowledge.
For us to stand on first To saythis isn't helpful.
(43:25):
Yeah, yes, right, this isn'tthe way we should be having sex.
Cami (43:30):
There's negative outcomes.
If this is a longstandingpattern, that's better said yes.
Anne (43:37):
Right, but right now that's not common knowledge.
I don't think so.
Cami (43:41):
I think, I don't think that it is.
Anne (43:47):
I think once we hear it, we all go, oh hell, yeah, right.
So it's that communalacknowledgement, the communal
healing, just like the Me Toomovement.
I think a lot of people can doso much work in the individual
therapy session.
But we also need that from oursisters, our aunties, our other
women that we're in communitywith, to also have that shared
(44:10):
common ground that we can.
Because we get gaslit, like Isaid, we get gaslit out of the
experience, but we needeverybody to be on the same page
so we can normalize and havethat healing actually start.
Because if you find out inindividual therapy, then you go
out into the world and they'retelling you you're crazy, you
know, just put up with it.
Right, it's again that push andpull is holding back that
(44:35):
actual healing, not just for theindividual but for us
collectively, right?
Also, I think it would bereally important because I don't
do like premarital therapy.
If anything, I've done somepre-commitment work before
around sex.
But how profound would it be ifeven the churches added a
(44:59):
component of this into theirpre-commitment therapy modality,
right, if it was just a part ofthis manualized.
We're going to hit this part soeverybody in church knows.
Cami (45:11):
I'm only smiling because I'm imagining trying to sell
this, the church, and imaginingthe kind of resistance that it
might provoke.
Anne (45:24):
You know, it is possible, right, and so I always like to
start with the least resistance.
Right can give the leader ofthe church some concrete data,
like you've already produced,right, and then explain to them
what is happening in their heart.
They don't want their uh, theirmembers to be suffering.
(45:47):
And also adding, you know whenI'm thinking about?
Like general therapists, likean lmft, they only get three to
five credits of human sexuality,right, and then they're trying
to treat sexological issues, andsometimes, when it comes to
theology, it's almost worse,right, because it's not a lot of
times that sex positiveeducation that's actually making
(46:09):
it into that three to fivecredits, but offering them the
tools that they need to beinformed.
I think, with that insight,they would only want to not
everybody, but they would onlywant to help in this part where
they're just lacking someknowledge about this dynamic
(46:35):
we're discussing and how itinterplays with a diagnosis of
hypoactive desire or interestdisorder.
Cami (46:43):
Like yeah, I had.
Is this low desire or is thissomething else?
These women well.
Anne (46:52):
I pulled out my to really be like, let me really.
I got it out here.
I actually have the page open.
I shut it for to make somespace all night, but it kind of
reminds me.
Let's just think about, like,race and trauma.
Right, there's no racial trauma, but we have the trauma.
(47:13):
We can see where maybe it fitsin.
We don't have complex PTSD, butwe can see where it fits in so
it could be built into thediagnostic features I feel like
associated features supportingdiagnosis.
Right, they always are brushingon relational factors.
(47:35):
So another part that I thoughtI could go into is the risk in
well, I can't say the word nowfactors, but it does a
subcategory of environmental.
So environmental factorsinclude relationship
difficulties.
So, yes, this is a relationshipdifficulty, but that is such a
(47:56):
broad term that's not breakingit down into right, this
unwanted piece of you know, sex.
Cami (48:06):
That unknown variable that you mentioned.
Yeah, right, and so I thinkthat we could.
Anne (48:12):
You know, like a lot of times we use this and we know
all these other parts of why youknow this person has depression
or this person has anxiety andthose criteria aren't in the dsm
.
It feels like it could fit here, right, but we just know the
added information to the contextof why it's there true, it
doesn't say your mom underdepression.
(48:32):
Right.
Cami (48:33):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Anne (48:37):
But it gives you the wiggle room, though right Coming
to that justification by, byseveral times, just saying
relational issues.
It's all over in this, but what?
What does that?
Cami (48:51):
I mean they're not defining it Right, so they're
leaving it broad enough for usto throw it in there is what I,
I feel like so often the womanself-diagnosed herself with I
have a desire disorder or that,or the partner has, or you know
and trying to figure out wheredoes context and dynamic
(49:11):
interplay with diagnosis?
You know, that was great.
I like.
I like how you saw that and howyou, and then it gives you
another piece, too, with theculture related diagnostic
issues.
Anne (49:23):
Right, if we did bring in some of the pieces we talked
today about specifically blackbodies, right, we could add it
into that piece and then alsogender-related diagnostic
features well the gender is thatwe are in a massively
patriarchal society which has astronghold on human sexuality in
(49:44):
modern day, right?
So it's just all this wigglingto maneuver which I feel like
diagnosing is a lot of the time.
Cami (49:51):
Yeah, yeah, Agreed.
Do you have additional thoughts?
Your op ed kind of commentarythat I might you know things
that you thought of that Ididn't think to ask.
Anne (50:02):
We all collectively need to have a basic understanding of
how anti-Black our society isand that misogynoir is at the
forefront of this right.
That hatred against Black womenis they're not getting the
support, they're not getting theresources, they're not getting
that communal healing right thatthey need.
(50:25):
They're always getting pushed,pushed down, doing the most
labor and getting the push downfor for the support, and so
whatever interventions orwhatever you know
conceptualizations, we have tothink, we have to put that at
the forefront when we're lookingat working with black women.
Cami (50:43):
that that is the context, that is the backdrop of their
experience and you can correctme if I'm wrong, but I think, as
far as research goes, we'rejust starting to do that.
We're just starting to say, hey, does this intervention, this
actually gotman intervention?
We've been doing with whitefolks all the time, does it
translate?
Well, and they're starting todo some of that.
(51:04):
What interventions and what?
What?
Anne (51:10):
interventions and what changes need to be made
culturally.
And I think again, this is allsaying that white people are at
the forefront of makingdecisions for Black people's
healing and instead of trying tomold a white model to, you know
, black folks, why don't we giveBlack clinicians the space to
create interventions for us?
(51:31):
Why don't we get the funding orthe support to talk about how
we can create healing within ourown communities?
But we're on the pedestal oflooking at white folks and then
trying to mold it to work for us.
Cami (51:46):
Thanks for pointing that out.
Anne (51:48):
Not giving Black people the voice to say, hey, this is
what we actually need.
We're waiting for the whitedude to tell us what we can have
.
Cami (51:56):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, thanks for pointing that out.
That's true.
I'm going through interventions.
And who created them?
They're all older white men.
You know.
Anne (52:13):
Yeah, so the the problem that a lot of like BIPOC, a like
within asex community, is a lotof our supervisees come to us
like, well then, what is theanswer?
What do we do?
It's like, well, we're tiredright now, we can't recreate
this wheel.
But this is for those thatyounger cohort that we're
bringing in to create right,we're giving them those tools to
(52:35):
start to have that spaceBecause historically, right,
it's very ableist.
Cis, white, couple-centric isthe only way you got your foot
in the door.
But we have the responsibilityof letting that younger cohort
get a foot in the door.
But we have the responsibilityof letting that younger cohort
get a foot in the door so theycan create are you seeing that
cohort grow?
(52:57):
yes, I feel like even the cohortbefore me bust the door open.
I gotta walk through, and nowthese other folks are going to
be tearing it up.
Cami (53:06):
I believe so oh good, Awesome.
So sometimes we're talkingabout systemic change.
Anne (53:22):
It feels so long, but I'm so glad to hear you say that
this part of the systemic changeyou're seeing happen without
taking it we haven't created.
Right, right, we don't have youknow as many different models,
as many different experts whosenames are accessible to people's
mouths, right, like emilynagowski, esther perel, we know
you know people who are not inthe sex world know that.
But ask you, know them who is ablack sexologist who is doing
(53:45):
this work?
It's going to be harder forthem to retrieve a name.
We need to make it moreaccessible.
Cami (53:52):
I'm really pleased to meet you.
Thanks so much, I reallyappreciate it.
Anne (53:56):
Yeah, it's good to meet you and thank you for doing the
work.
Cami (53:58):
Yeah, we'll talk soon.
Okay, Okay thanks Bye Anne you.
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