Cultural Perspective on Consenting to Unwanted Sex with Bat Sheva Marcus

Bat Sheva Marcus is a sex therapist in private practice. She was founder and served as clinical director of one of the largest sexual health centers in the US for 25 years. She is also the author of Satisfaction Guaranteed: How to Have the Sex You've Always Wanted.

Dr. Marcus immediately challenges our conventional understanding of sexual desire, suggesting that what we often label as "coercive sex" or "low desire" might actually stem from unrealistic expectations and misguided narratives. With refreshing directness, she proposes reframing how we think about sex entirely—comparing it to an exercise program rather than something driven by "magic pixie dust." Just as we don't always feel like going to the gym but usually feel better afterward, she argues that waiting for spontaneous desire might be sabotaging many relationships.

The discussion delves into fascinating territory when exploring Orthodox Jewish communities, where theoretical support for sexual pleasure clashes with practical pressures and expectations. Dr. Marcus shares eye-opening stories from her clinical practice, including a poignant example of a woman who believed sex needed to be a profound spiritual connection every time—"If every time you have sex, it had to be a Shabbat dinner, sometimes you just want a sandwich," Marcus quips, illustrating how our expectations can become burdens.

Perhaps most valuable are the three harmful narratives Dr. Marcus identifies that undermine healthy sexuality: expecting sex to be driven by spontaneous desire rather than conscious choice; believing you must be "relaxed and present" to enjoy sex (unrealistic for most busy adults); and expecting your partner to be what turns you on, rather than taking responsibility for your own arousal. By dismantling these misconceptions, she offers a path toward more satisfying sexual relationships based on choice, communication, and realistic expectations.

Whether you're struggling with desire discrepancies in your relationship or simply curious about the complex dynamics of consent, this episode provides thought-provoking perspectives that might transform how you think about sex. Share your thoughts with us—what narratives about sex have you found helpful or harmful in your own life?

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Hello, Sex Therapy 101 friends.
You notice I might have taken abreak.
But we're back and we'reexcited.
And I'm really passionate aboutthis new series that I'm going
to be offering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me.
And one of those is a book forthe public about my research

(00:33):
about regarding long-termoutcomes of consenting to
unwanted sex or duty sex as wesometimes call it.
And in doing that, adding to myown research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because this were
all recorded over the course ofa year.
And I wanted to talk to expertsabout the cultural implications

(00:57):
or cultural beliefs or thecultural ideas among different
communities in the US that mightprotect people against negative
outcomes and that might actuallykind of promote people into some
of the more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I have tooffer you.

(01:17):
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome.
It's been enlightening to me.
It's really helped me make surethat this book is what I want it
to be for all of you.
So with no adieu, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
I'll give you a little bit of abio for each, and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.

(01:39):
Batshiva Marcus is a sextherapist in private practice.
She was the founder and servedas the clinical director of one
of the largest sexual healthcenters in the U.S.
for 25 years.
She's amazing.
She's been on my radar forseveral years.
She's the author of SatisfactionGuaranteed: How to Have the Sex

(02:00):
You've Always Wanted.
And I think you're really goingto enjoy her perspective.
I know that I did.

SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
Hi, Cami.

SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
How are you?
I'm good.
How are you?
I'm doing good.
I really appreciate being ableto meet with you this morning.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
I'm happy to do this.
I feel like I may draw a monkeywrench into some of your
narratives, but I'm happy.

SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
No, that's what this is about.
Why don't you give me yourlittle elevator pitch?
I think it'll be easier for methat, yeah.
Okay.
So what we did is we re uh did asurvey with uh 1300 respondents
was amazing.
Um, and we were looking at arethere any long-term outcomes for
women who do consent to sex thatthey don't necessarily want.

SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
They participated, and so and so they were doing
everything retroactively, right?
Like what they rememberedparticipating in was they don't
want to, but now they feelcorrect.

SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
And so then we had one qualitative portion and one
quantitative portion.
And we quoted the comments andwe scored the assessments and
were like, I think it's amazingresearch.

SPEAKER_00 (03:02):
I think it's amazing research.
I do think it's amazingresearch.

SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
And I'm so glad you'll help me figure out what
some of it means from yourperspective.

SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
Yeah.
Well, I don't know.
You know, it's your, you know,everybody has their own groups
they work with, and that'sdefinitely true.

SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
So, first question was just using your own clinical
lens and your expertise ofrelationships and sexuality, how
do you interpret these findings?
What what how would what wouldyou explain as happening from
your background?

SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
So I think there's two responses.
And I I I did the one thing Idid not look over is your
questions.
So they may be a little, I maybe a little tad kind of out of
your the way you want things,but that's fine.
So I think there's two differentissues.
That's why I initially jumped inand said, Did you have a control
group?
Right.
Because I think that in general,our expectations about women, um

(04:00):
women's uh interests in sex, itmay be not um correlated with
reality, and that in general,women in long-term relationships
or even not in long-termrelationships may some of these
words are very strong, anxiety,avoidance, aversion.

(04:21):
I would soften those, but lessinterested, um having a harder
time accessing, right?
Um putting less value on sexthat that may happen as hormones
draw.
Sure.
And so that has a lot to do withour narrative about how we then

(04:43):
define them and how women thencreate those narratives in their
head.

SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
Okay, so you're saying one piece that isn't
being examined here is thatlifespan piece and the
biological components thatcreate this for most women as we
age.
And the group I kind of snaggedwas that age group, and we can't
look away from that possibilitytoo.
Correct.

SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
And the secondary layer on that is how we create
narratives around that, right?
If my interest in sex is lessthan it was when I was 22,
right?
Is that because I'm avoidant?
You know, am I anxious because Ifeel like it should be like when
I was 22?

(05:27):
Am I anxious because it's harderto get turned on than it was
when I was 22?
Right.
It's not necessarily a reactionto the relationship or the
situation we're in, which Ithink everybody jumps to.
Do you know what I mean?
That is where I get like whencouples come in and they say,
our sex life sucks.

(05:48):
And like, what is going on withour relationship that our sex
life sucks?
Yeah, I'm like, that is a bigleap.
Do you know what I mean?
And that leap gets worsened whenthey walk into a couples
therapist who says somewhere ontheir website, Oh, I do sex,
right?
And they are like, you know, Ithink we're kind of getting
along sort of okay, but like wehaven't had sex in a year.

(06:11):
And, you know, I'm and I'm Ibunch of them thinking, well,
yeah, most relationships wouldnot do well if you haven't had
sex in a year.
And the couple therapist issaying, Well, I'll tell you
what, let's get all thecommunication in order, let's
get the relationship going well,and then your sex is gonna
follow.

SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
And I'm like, Yeah, that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
Okay, so are you okay with that language?
Because I'm like, Oh, yeah,you're great.
Not only does it not happen, butyou can get the relationship to
a pretty damn good place, andthat that therapist is never
even gonna address their sexlife because the therapist is
uncomfortable with it, whetherthey realize it or not, or
because they're not good at itor they don't know what they're
doing.
And sometimes if you get the sexlife in order, the rest of the

(06:48):
relationship falls in place.
Like there's so much moremultifactorial than I think
people give it credit for.
Absolutely.
Well, that's narrative one.
Yeah, narrative two has to dowith our expectation that our
interest in sex will be visceralrather than cognitive, right?

SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Okay.
Yes.
People have people have calledthis, you know, spontaneous
versus, you know, whatever.
Like that is the buzzword of,you know, spontaneous,
responsive.
But people don't understand whatthat means.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like people do not understandwhat that means.
So I think again, when a womansays it was coercive sex, it's

(07:28):
only coercive if you're instarting, starting gambit is I
should have wanted this to startwith, right?
I should right.
Right, right.
Women go into the spiral, and Ithink our whole society has gone
into the spiral now where it'slike coercive and then it feels
like pressure.
And then how am I going to getmyself in the mood next time?
And I don't really want to do itif I'm doing it, what I don't

(07:49):
really like.
My choice wouldn't, my choicemight not be to have sex right
now, but I need to have sexbecause he wants to have sex.
Well, that feels prettycoercive.
But if you like reframe it andyou say, Well, he would like to
have sex now in yourrelationship.
Can you get yourself in the moodwhere you are willing to have
sex now?
Well, then does that feelcoercive or that means like a
decision that I made that I'mgoing to want to have sex?

SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
The the the and now I'm just going.
Can I keep talking or absolutelythis is great?
This is great.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
The black and white of consent and the black and
white of coercion is absolutelya problem.
We've got to put this on aspectrum.

SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
I was thinking, I think a lot about it because I
always say to people, stop.
This is my first piece ofadvice.
Stop thinking about wanting sexis like Magic Pixie does this
coming on and think of your sexlife as like an exercise or a
movement program, right?
I know it so it sounds so unsexyfor a sex therapist to say that,
but the reality is that most ofus feel like exercise makes us

(08:45):
feel good.
It makes us feel like the restof our life works better.
It makes us feel healthier.
Um, we're often glad we did it.
If we found a way to do it thatwe like, we feel great even
while we're doing it.
But that does not mean we wantto get off the couch and move
every time, right?
No matter how much you love,right?
So I guess it pushes my buttonsa little bit when people say

(09:07):
coercive sex, because I feellike, and sometimes it is.
I believe me, I get that there'sa whole other piece of this, but
uh, that's not what I'm talkingabout.

SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
I'm talking about long-term being about like look
at like a collaboration,negotiation, this how do two
people work through together.

SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Let's say you joined a basketball, you love to play
basketball, you feel great whenyou're playing basketball, and
you joined a basketball team.
And then like you don't feellike going to practice.
Like, or I don't feel like goingto that game that day.
Like, we wouldn't say like thatwas okay.
It's your choice to say, I don'twant to play basketball anymore
and I don't want to be on theteam.
That is a hundred percent yourchoice.
If you say, like, really, Idon't enjoy sex, I don't like

(09:45):
it, and I don't want to be in arelationship where it's expected
of me.
I'm like, you go, girl.
You do not need to do that.
But as long as you are committedto a relationship where you have
that, it seems like an expectedexpected part.
Then the question is, yeah, youdon't want to get off the sofa.
Like, how do you make it morefun?
How do you say to yourself,okay, well, I'm gonna be happy
because I love it when I'm atthe games.
I really love playing the games.

(10:05):
I just don't feel like going tothe practices.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, yeah, you know, and andit's legitimate for your
teammates to expect you to showup.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, so, and that might say,you know what?
Like, I always feel more likegoing to the practices if I do a
run beforehand, or I feel morelike going to the practices if
somebody gives me a foot massagebeforehand.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, but I feel like that'swhere the narrative gets

(10:28):
completely screwed up.
It's like there's somethingabout sex where we feel like it
should be this magical space inour life where we always kind of
want to do it, or we should onlydo it when we feel like it.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, it's it's like it's thisbizarre.
I feel like there's a few areaswhere we have as a society just

(10:50):
completely like missed thepoint.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, you know, you shouldn'thave sex if you don't want to
have sex.
I'm the first one to say that.
If you, if you're like, my kneehurts today and I am not going
to practice, do you know whatI'm saying?
Yeah, that's great.
Or you know what?
I'm really wiped out, guys, andI need I need two weeks off
because I just I'm wiped.
Like, that's fine, but not like,well, if I don't feel like

(11:13):
getting to practice, do you knowwhat I'm saying?
Like, right, yes.
Okay, so now I'm guessing we sawthat in our research.
Why am I saying that?

SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Like, I no, no, no, I'm not horrified because we saw
that in our research where therewas like 40% of women, and they
were like, Well, I didn't wantto at first, but once we got
going, I had a good time.
And even if it was bad sex, itwas fine, it didn't bother me.
And then there was this otherportion with that scored on like
severe trauma on the PCLS, um,of saying, Well, I cried during

(11:38):
and after, and I was like, uh,you know, like the in its
different, like we're seeingsome different patterns within
the research.
And you're saying, okay, wegotta really not treat this as
one group here.

SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Even the ones that are crying.
So here's the interesting one.
Even the ones that are crying,what I want to sort of start
parsing out with them was whatmade them cry.
Because I have some people wholike, I hate my partner, I don't
want to be doing this.
He's totally insensitive to me.
Okay.
Then there's one group wherehe's trying and I get no
pleasure, and it makes me feellike a like I'm I am a failure

(12:15):
every time I have sex.
That is a huge, huge piece here.
And then the question becomeshow do we work with you so that
you feel good about your sexlife?
I'm happy about it.
That's okay.
Then there's the ones who arelike, I'm crying because I'm
it's not supposed to be thisway.
I'm supposed to want to act,like it's because their
narrative is all broken, also.

SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
But I think that 40% could probably be I'm I could
guess, but at least cut in halfif they had some actual,
practical, good, useful,supportive advice.
Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
Like these long-term expectations about how sex
usually looks with the that someof the pain is the narrative and
their belief.

SPEAKER_00 (12:55):
And and pain, and when you use the word pain, can
I just tell you the number ofwomen I see who are like you
know, when I'll say, Well, youknow, they come in because they
have a low desire, and I'll belike, and what about the pain?
You know, is there any pain?
And they're like, Well, youknow, a little bit, but it's
tolerable.
And I'm like, do nothing likeit's like expectations.

(13:17):
So what would be fascinating tome is for you to take that 40%
if you're ever up for it, andthen start striding that one
even down further, because itwould be so interesting about
how many of those things alsohave to do with our screwed up
narrative, our not understandingof things, our unrealistic
expectations, and how much ofthem really are really coerced.
Because that really is.

(13:37):
It's a terrible feel.
Like when I have a client who'slike husband expects to have sex
every day and like is completelynot sensitive to her needs, like
that's horrible.
And yes, that's traumatic.
And yes, that's I can't imaginethem having significantly long
impact.
Yeah.

unknown (13:53):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (13:53):
No, I appreciate I just dumped a lot at you.
No, I'm glad.
I want to hear it.
These are and even those womenwho are like in the other 60% of
what have would however brokedown, were like, it was fine
when I got started.
The narrative that your husbandor your partner in the bed
should be what turns you on, asopposed to you having
responsibility yourself forgetting yourself turned on

(14:16):
before you even come into that.
Unhelpful.
So unhelpful.

SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
No, I appreciate this part where there's this the
narratives, the beliefs, ourexpectations, our lack of
education.
A lot of that is at play here.
And also you recognizing some ofthe words we use get in our way
too.
That the language needs to adapthere or change because we can be

(14:42):
having a conversation and thinkwe're talking about one thing
and have, you know, what iscoercion?
What is consent?
Yeah.
What is trauma?
What is uh, yes, how yes, that'seven up for debate.
Yes, absolutely.
Um, I appreciate this.
I love your thoughts.
Um what about aspects ofcommunity culture?

(15:04):
Since the group was homogeneous,and if you are an expert in, you
know, with your community in umthe Jewish community, what do
you have thoughts there for us?

SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
Yeah, no, that's really, really interesting.
Um so I do see a variety varietyof clients, but it definitely it
definitely gear, you know, leanstowards being monogamous,
monogamous.
Um gears towards being umheteronormative, not monogamous,

(15:43):
um and and I have people out ofthat group, but um long-term,
early marriages, um,heterosexual kind of goes kind
of without saying.
Um I mean, I have some gaycouples, but mostly not, and I
usually refer them out because Ifeel like there's people who are
that are with that population.

(16:04):
Um and the coercion piece isquite interesting because there
are, especially as you move intothe more religious factors of
the Jewish community, there arethere are a lot of expectations.
Um, some of them good, some ofthem less good.

(16:24):
So um I think in the Jewishcommunity and the let's call it
the observant or orthodox Jewishcommunity, and you do get it's a
huge span, right?

SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
It's a huge umbrella.

SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
It's like to me, like in the modern Orthodox
community, and then there's likemore observant, more religious,
and then there's the Hasidiccommunity, and they're all
slightly different.
But in a theoretical world,sexual pleasure is considered a
positive thing, as opposed to inthe Catholic world, where I
think it's a little bit morequestionable.
Now, I sometimes get irritatedwhen people say this because

(16:53):
it's kind of simplistic.
Because even thoughtheoretically, when you look at
sources, and there's hundreds ofthousands of Jewish sources on
this, most of them, not all ofthem, most of them are sort of
pro-sexual pleasure.
Yeah, that's that's de jure.
But de facto, the girls go sure.
The girls and the boys go toyeshiva's where like they're

(17:16):
told that their bodies are, youknow, that there's a split
between the you know, the holyspiritual realm and the the um
physical, the physical, yeah,like less good, dangerous realm,
right?
And so where does sex end upwith that?
And then what that ends up doingfor some of these women, and
I'll give you a great story,which I think just was such, I

(17:38):
have so many of these, but thisone was just encapsulated.
It they get caught in thisspace, this like space between
like, well, I'm supposed to behaving physical pleasure, but
really the I'm supposed to belike in this better realm of
like holiness, and like how doyou navigate those two things?
And so so this I think willillustrate this really well.

(18:01):
I have this amazing, I loved herto pieces.
She came in, she was like havingpain.
They hadn't had sex in like sixmonths to a year.
She was 30s and had like threekids, two thirds of the kids.
And you know, so we kind ofworked through the pain.
I got them back to havingnon-intercourse sex, um, which
is a complication in thiscommunity because you're not
really allowed to ejaculateoutside the vagina, although

(18:22):
that could be worked around.
Often the rabbis could behelpful with that again.
Um, and they were going, butthey were having, they were
having good sex.
We got the intercourse back in,no pain.
Um, and you know, she got theidea that she kind of had to get
herself turned on before theywent in.
We were scheduling it so that itwas like less pressured for her.

(18:42):
She would get herself turned onbefore she went in.
And it was really working reallywell, but something was missing.
And I couldn't, I was having areally hard time with her.
Like she still was, I wasfeeling like she was like, I
still feel like it's verystressful.
She was using this wordstressful.
And like she kept being afraidshe would not be able to sustain
it.
Like I could feel like there wassomething like going on here.

(19:04):
And, you know, at some pointshe's like, she was masturbating
once a week or twice a week.
And so I was like, Well, what'slet's dig a little deeper into
what the difference is betweenyour masturbation and your
having sex with your husband.
Like, how does that?
And she said, Well, I sort offeel like I need to be focused
like on him entirely when we'rehaving sex.
I need to like make I need shedidn't use these words, but she

(19:27):
was like, There needs to be thislike deep, deep religious,
emotional, spiritual connection.
And I'm like, What the fuck?
Like, you know, I felt like Ihad to do that every time I had
sex.
I would never have sex.
I'm like, you know what I mean?
Like, I'm like, like when she'salone, she has the freedom of
her own thought world, but whenshe's with a partner, all she
just somehow, yeah, these thingsenter and and it has to be this

(19:49):
meaningful spiritual experience.
That's you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (19:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
Well, that is a lot of weight to put on every time
you have sex.
Do you know what I mean?
With her, I said, Are youJewish?
You're not.
No, but I I have a I have aminor in world religion, so it's
kind of a thing of my we do the,you know, our Shabbat, our
Shabbat, our Sabbaths are notlike, you know, I don't use
electricity, I don't, whatever.
So we have Shabbat dinner.
That's a usually a big thing.

(20:14):
It's like lovely, you know.
I put out my China, whatever, wehave company, whatever.
And I looked at her and I'mlike, if every time you have
sex, it had to be a Shabbatdinner, like with your China and
the cooking.
Sometimes you just want asandwich.
Do you know what I mean?
Like sometimes you just, it'sokay to have an ice cream Sunday
or just have a sandwich.
Like, it's okay to just begetting the pleasure that you're
getting out of it and the weightthat dropped off this woman.

(20:36):
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, now I don't know if wecould have had that conversation
three months earlier becausethere were all these other
stuff, but like some of thefeeling of coercion and is
because our expectations thatthese women put on themselves
are outrageous.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like again, it goes back to likethe you know, it feels like,

(20:58):
well, I don't want to have sex.
I wouldn't want to have sexeither if every time I had sex,
I had such enormous expectationsbeing put on me.
Right.
Right.
It has to be this meeting of thesoul.
Like I'm just like, are you likethat, you know?
I mean, you know, and I'mlaughing.
I said to her, you know, if youhave regular sex once in a
while, it will feel like that.
And that's amazing.
And if you don't have sex,you're never gonna feel like
that.
But like, so so this feeling ofI have to have sex once a week

(21:24):
or twice a week, feels like it'snot overwhelming if you don't
put overwhelming expectations onit, right?
So that's what I see in thiscommunity.
Yeah, I see um I see in a reallygood way that I feel like, and
again, I have a skewedperspective, right?
I never did a research study, Ionly have the women I'm working

(21:45):
with, but it feels to me likewhen the sex life is not working
well, they're quicker to come infor help somehow.
Like it feels like they thinklike it's a value in the house.
Okay, which is interesting,right?
And I've had in the chasidishcommunity, I've had guys
dragging his their wives in.
They're like, I'm gettingpleasure out of this, and she's

(22:06):
not getting any pleasure, and Idon't know.
That's more my experience, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah, from the um, no, just over here in the west,
but see more of the men bringingin the women saying that in your
community, the women are saying,I need to change this, they're
they're the one driving.

SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Right.
But I also in the morereligious, in the really when
you get more fundamental or themore orthodox.
Yes, yes.
So then then you are seeing themen dragging the women in
because the women sort of don'teven get, I think, that they're
there's what's supposed to behappening there, right?
Like you're not exposed toboobies, you're not supposed to
books, they don't get andwhatever.
So um, so I think that that's Ithink a big piece of it.

(22:47):
You know, it's a reallyinteresting question.
The when you move into moreultra-orthodox communities, the
early sex is often a nightmare.
And that does feel verycoercive.
But to be fair, it's coercive toboth the men and the women.
Like that first night, like insome of these cases, they've met
each other once or twice.

(23:08):
Then they meet under the weddingcanopy, the chuppa.
And then they're expected thatnight to go to have intercourse.
And like everybody's oftenfocusing on that poor woman,
which is it does.
Sometimes it feels like rape.
But for the guys, it also feelslike they don't want to be doing
this.
They don't know what they'redoing, they're nervous as
anything, they're hurting thisperson, they're scared to death.

(23:30):
Um, and I do think that has thatcan have long-term gains.
But I don't have numbers on anyof this stuff.
Is that answering your questionat all?

SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Or did I go too field?
No, it's great.
Yeah.
Right.
The next couple of questions arewere just what parts of the
community culture do you thinkare protective of this and which
are maybe lean into promotingit, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
Um protective of the of the inclusion.

SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Yeah, of women consenting to unwanted sex,
though.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:56):
So they are taught, especially as you move into the
more religious communities.
There's it as you move into themore right-wing fundamentalist
communities, the women aredefinitely taught this, like you
have to have sex whenever yourhusband wants to have sex
message, which is not helpfuland not good.
Okay, so yeah.
Yeah.
Um, there's also some you getinto some of the ultra-orthodox

(24:20):
communities where there's actualexpectations about how often
you're supposed to have sex, andit could be a lot, right?
There's a passage in the Talmud.
It says I make it makes me laugha little bit because people, you
know, most things in this albumpeople do not take literally,
like the the legal tractates allsort of develop them.
This one is like, how often areyou supposed to have sex?
So if you're um, if you ifyou're a student, if you study

(24:43):
full time, it's every day.
If you're um like a businessmankind of thing, it's like uh
twice a week.
If you're like a sailor on avoyage, it could be like once a
month, right?
Now, to a certain degree, thesethings were developed as like I
think seen as protection for thewoman.
Like if you are a sailor andyou're traveling, you need to

(25:05):
come home at least once a month.
Okay.
Yeah.
Like your wife is is entitled toconjugal visits, right?
But the flip side for all theseguys who are sitting in their
yeshiva studying is like we'resupposed to have sex every day,
or and some of these girls arelearning.
Like, if your husband wants it,you gotta say yes, right.
Um another place where you seethis, which is insane to me, is

(25:31):
are you at all familiar with theritual bath or the mikveh?
Yes.
Yeah, okay.
Yes, yes, right.
So that's a very fundamentalcentral principle to pretty much
all of Orthodox life, right?
Like, even when you get to themodern Orthodox community, we
keep that.
Um there is an idea, not aJewish law, but an idea that
after you've been separated fortwo weeks and you go to the

(25:53):
mikvah, you should have sex thatnight.

SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
That causes so many problems.
I cannot even begin to tell youbecause um, there's this sort of
joking saying that wouldn't sayhave a fight on mikveh night.
Like you try to have a fightbecause you don't want to have
sex that night, right?
It puts this, it's so funnybecause I feel like when you I'm
a big phone of scheduling sex,right?
That I think is like prettyuseful for most couples.

(26:21):
There's something about the factthat like you haven't really
touched each other, in somecases, not touched each other at
all for two weeks.
And then you're expected to likego home and have sex and have
intercourse specifically.
And there's something about thefeeling I think of being um not
having a choice with that, thatit goes so deep for so many

(26:42):
women that there's just thislevel of resentment.
And the funniest thing isthere's really, I'm telling you,
there's zero Jewish law aboutthis.
I for six years I did a podcastwith a rabbi.
It's called The Joy of Text.
It was where real text meetsJewish law.
And we dug into so many thingslike you know, masturbation and
kink, and we did, you know, atleast one, maybe more episode on

(27:02):
having sex on the midfly.
There is no law saying you needto do that.
Like nobody says you have to dothat.
And yet it has become so endemicin our lore that people do it.
And it's so, and as soon as Isay to women, listen, you don't
have to have sex the night youcome back from MIPFA, you can
fool around, you can kiss, youcan make out, whatever you can

(27:23):
if you want, but you do not haveto.
If I tell you the differencewith and when you're looking at
coercion for women, as soon asyou take away the element of you
have to, yeah, it changes theworld.
It's like I can't tell you, Iwould say probably 80% of them
will have sex then.
And 20% may choose not to.
They're too tired, they don'twant to, they'll do it the next

(27:44):
night, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
The power of having a choice matters a little bit
more than if you would opt out.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
I mean, yes.
That was very eloquent.
That that's why I hear you sayit.
No, it's actually extremelyeloquent.
Yes.
The power of having a choice formost women is really, which is
why when we talk aboutscheduling sex, I will often say
to women, like, it has to, ithas to be them, it has to be
coming from them.
Like they need to like, look,what works for you?
What would you like?
How would you do that?
And and and and and you know,what happens if you can't do

(28:14):
that?
Like women have to feel likethey have a choice.
Yeah.

unknown (28:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
So anyway, so that's those are places where I really
see it does affect thecommunity.
Um let me just think.
Let me also think about becauseI I tend to see more women than
men, and I just want to makesure I'm not leaving out the
guys on this one.
No, I mean, I think just theissue of not getting good sex
education, which I think is, youknow, I think the orthodox

(28:39):
community gets blamed a lot, butI don't see such great sex
education anywhere, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
So it's like no, we can lay a lot at the feet of
purity culture, but then I'mlike, okay, but isn't that Cosmo
article the same thing?

SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
No, yeah, 100%.
Absolutely.
So I just think I just think ourculture is sort of Victorian.
I don't know what othercultures, but I do think um I I
I'll throw one other thing in,which again, I don't know in
terms of communicate, like thepressure to have sex from

(29:12):
intercourse, to have orgasmsfrom intercourse, I think adds
to the feeling of um pressure tothe women in a way that's not
helpful.
And I think again, I do notthink this is unique to the
Jewish community or the OrthodoxJewish community.
Like I think our whole societyis blown this, but but it is

(29:36):
worse in the religiouscommunities because the sources,
when they sources use the wordsex, they mean intercourse.
And there's thousands andthousands of sources on this
Talmudic sources, Mishnacsources, you know, biblical
sources.
Um, and so that's a wholeproject, like uh, you know,

(29:57):
saying to people redefine sex.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
And that does make it sometimeswomen feel like both of them, I
think both the men and the womenfeel like there's again, as soon
as you take choice away, itfeels coercive, right?
Right.
And this whole this wholereligious idea of not

(30:23):
ejaculating outside the vaginais a big one because that means
you have to have intercourseevery time you have sex.
So, you know, again, those of uswho are in the community and
have rabbis, we can work aroundthat to a certain degree.
Because the truth is the rabbisare pretty, the smart rabbis who
actually know their stuff andhave all the range of sources

(30:44):
will be very quick to say if thewoman's having pain, you
absolutely 100% can have otherkinds of sex.
Okay.
But the lower level rabbis, youknow, the ones who aren't as
knowledgeable and who just, youknow, it's easier to be strict
about something than to startlooking for all the internal
loopholes, make it very hard,which is why these a lot of
these women end up havingintercourse even though they're

(31:04):
having pain.
And that is very bad andcoercive and damaging.
And I in this case, I would usethe word traumatic.

SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm glad, yeah, I'm glad you'rehelping us stratify out how the
reasons for not wanting itimpact the outcome too.
And if it's enduring physicalpain, that's expected of us.
That's gonna score a lot higheron your uh trauma uh scale.

(31:32):
For sure, for sure, for sure.
Yeah, yeah.
Um tell me if you're comfortablea little bit more about that,
because I have worked withOrthodox Jewish company or
couples, and that is thedifficulty about what do we do
without a course and umejaculation and masturbation.

SPEAKER_00 (31:51):
So if there is pain, then in almost every case, you
can they can go to a rabbinicauthority.
I I want to, again, you know,it's very important to
understand that the rabbinicauthority as post in the
Catholic religion is not aboutsaying something's okay or not
okay, like sort of from God, butmore like finding sources to
support their position, right?
Understanding.
So if you know a thousandsources on this, you're gonna be

(32:13):
a lot more knowledgeable thansomebody who knows four sources
on this, right?
So that's okay.
So, which is why I loved workingwith this rabbi because he was
so incredibly knowledgeable andhe would start egging sources
from all over the place when Idid this podcast.
Yeah.
Um, so much fun.
But um, so there are myriads ofsources that will allow you to
ejaculate to not haveintercourse when you're having

(32:35):
sex if there's pain.
Now, there are tons of sourcesas well, not tons, there's a few
sources as well, that say aslong as you're in the context of
your normal, monogamouslong-term relationship, you can
do whatever you want.
You can have anal sex, you canhave oral sex, you don't have to
ejaculate in the vagina.
It should just not become yourprimary way of having sex.

(32:55):
That's honestly, that's prettythe mainstream position,
honestly, in the more slightlymodern communities.
But even in you go into the moreultra-orthodox communities, if
there's pain, there's alwaysgoing to be a knowledgeable
person who will say to you, holdoff, ejaculate.
Some of them may say, I want youto ejaculate on vulva.
So it's kind of in the area asopposed to, you know, between

(33:16):
her boobs or, you know, on herhand, whatever.
Okay.
But but there's 99% of the timethere is somebody who would who
can help the, you know, thewoman and the husband navigate
that.

SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
And there's not an expectation of celibacy or like
not at all.
Abstaining from an ejaculationfrom the city.
Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
Now, now that's the reality of the rabbinic
situation, but that doesn't meanthat this doesn't like I I was
seeing a couple where hewouldn't hear of it.
He wouldn't even go talk toanybody.
Like he, you know, because thereare some sources that say, you
know, masturbating is equivalentof murder, right?
You're killing all the sperm,right?
Well, once you get that into a15-year-old boy's head, it is
very hard to change thatnarrative, right?

(33:56):
No matter what I say to him orwhat other rabbis say to him, do
you know what I'm saying?
Like it's just it is.
Yeah, I had one guy who felt hewas sure that his son's his son
was having some terrible urinaryproblems, and he thought it was
because he had masturbated,right?
And so now, if we hadn't if hehad been willing to work on it
with me, we probably could havedug deep, but he wasn't.
Like it was like he was beingpunished, right?

(34:17):
God was punishing.
So it's it's you know, onceyou're working in that
situation, it becomes very hardto work around that, right?
Then the best you're doing istrying to work with the woman to
figure out how you can mitigatethe pain or tell her to stop
having sex altogether, which is,you know, and sometimes they do.
Like I've had couples, religiouscouples, who the guys have just

(34:39):
not had any kind of they havemasturbated and they haven't had
sex in a year or two.
And that's terrible, also,because then you know I'm always
concerned they won't be able toejaculate when the time comes.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's just it creates sexualproblems, right?

SPEAKER_01 (34:50):
What I'm hearing is like this context could some may
define as, oh, the woman has lowdesire, or some may say, oh,
this couple has a desirediscrepancy, but I'm hearing you
define it more as advocating forchoice and collaboration, or put
it into your own words, thatinstead of framing it as like a

(35:12):
diagnosis of low desire or adiagnosis of or not diagnosis,
but oh, they have a desirediscrepancy, you how would you
describe this happening?

SPEAKER_00 (35:20):
No, I would say they have a desire discrepancy or
she's suffering with low desire,but let's understand what that
means.
Because is it does that doesthat mean that she has
unrealistic?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, I I agree with thediagnosis, right?
The question is just what Idon't agree with is the
responses.
So so what I think is like, isthat coming because her ideas?

(35:43):
So is that coming if you havelow desire, is it because the
sex itself is bad?
So then we gotta figure outthat's a separate bucket, we
gotta move that out, right?
Is it because and this is Ithink is a big piece of it, our
narratives and our expectationsof what desire can should look
like within the longconversation, is distorted, and

(36:05):
you're working with a verybroken model, right?
So I kind of feel like it'sthose I would bring it into
those two, you know, or do youhave lone desire because your
physiology is such?
And I will throw this in becauseI I shouldn't let this go,
right?
Women's men's and women'stestosterone, I don't know how
much you know about this, goesdown as they get older.

(36:27):
Okay.
It is like a it is like it istotally ignored by the
therapeutic community in a waythat enrages me.
I just had a couple, I just hada couple where their sex life,
they have they used to have agreat sex life, second marriage,
they've been married 20 years,they had a great sex life, and
about three or four years ago,it kind of started petering
down, petering down, and now itwas like close to nothing when I

(36:48):
saw them.
Super, super if like high-levelarchitects flying all over the
world, like really smart, right?
Like really smart, interesting,intellectual.
And like, I'm like talking tothem, talking to them.
And he was the initiator, and itwas really important that he be
the initial.
So her vagina's a mess, andwe're cleaning up her vagina,
right?
She's got a child with thedoctors, whatever.
But you and I know you can havea great sex life even without

(37:10):
intercourse.
And it's not like they'rereligious, so that wasn't, you
know, a problem.
His desire has just slowly,slowly, slowly gone down.
And I'm like, you need to getyour testosterone checked.
Like, this is ridiculous.
So he, I have a urologist I lovein New York that I work with.
So he walks in there and shesays to me, You know what's
going on?
His testosterone was it wasn'teven low.
It was probably on the higherend of normal that we call

(37:31):
normal.
But there's no question.
Harry's story, his testosteronewas lower than it used to be.
I don't know what histestosterone used to be.
Right.
So this, I don't know how muchyou know testosterone.
Testosterone for men are lookedat 300 to 900 something.
So he was like at 600, whichnobody would look at and say
low, right?
But believe me, 300, he'd belike lying on the floor.
So anyway, so he says to thedoctor, she said, he said, you

(37:53):
know, look, I've been marriedfor 20 years, and like, you
know, it's just one of thosethings kind of thing.
And like I call, she's myfriend, so I call her up and
like, just fucking put him ontestosterone, get him to 1200,
which is like a very reasonabledose level to be on, but it's on
the high end.
You have to keep an eye on youwant to make sure we're on
things, whatever.
I if I don't do this usually, Isay to people I supervise, you
can't want this more than theywant it.

(38:13):
But like in this case, I justwouldn't love them and whatever.
And I'm like dragging him andget him with this testosterone
shot.
Two weeks after thosetestosterone shots, he's like,
Oh my god, I'm like so in like II see I'm thinking about it, I'm
thinking about it again.
And then a week or two later, hesays to me, You know what,
Cheva?
It's kind of like when you'reyou sort of sort of floating out

(38:36):
to sea and you're comfortableand it's very gradual, and you
look up all of a sudden and youdon't even remember the horizons
out there, but you don't evenyou don't remember what it was
that you don't you didn'tnotice, you know what I mean?
And it's like, no, I could havetalked to them until I was blown
the face, they were having someissues, I helped them with some
of those issues, but his libidowas his libido, right?

(38:59):
And so, and for women, estrogenand testosterone also, then they
do not have the same magic.
I will just say with men, it'salmost like a light switch.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like I just you get them on adecent amount of testosterone
and they want to have sex.
And my hunch is if we did thatenough with women, we would feel
that also.
But that's you know, there'ssome hair loss, there's some
acne, there's some reasons womendon't want to be on
testosterone.

(39:20):
I totally, totally get that.
So you got to go other venues,but acknowledge the fact that
your libido is gonna be lower,and that may be part of it.
And do you want your sex life todie?
Right, that it goes back to thebasketball team, right?
Like maybe you decide no morebasketball for me, but is that
really what you want in yourlife?
Will that make you happy?
Or do you feel like I'm gonnastart playing volleyball?

(39:42):
Do you know what I think?
Like so, I think thephysiological piece, and so I
will recommend to women thatthey either go on DHEA or they
go testosterone, or just getmore sunlight.
Like there's other ways to fightthis, but there is a
physiological reality.
Or just read yourself, like, I'mnot gonna spontaneously want sex
the way maybe I did when I was18, but I still can have good
orgasms.
I still feel good when I'm doingit.

(40:03):
So I feel like I have no ideawhat your question was and
whether I'm answering it.
I'm laughing.
Did I just go totally haywire?

SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
No, you're great because I gave you only two
options and you were great andsaid, I don't really like those
two options.
I said, you know, low desire ordesire discrepancy, and you said
which was great, which is you'rethey are those are right, those
are positioned uniquely in thebiopsychosocial world that
you're able to say, you knowwhat therapists aren't leaning
into enough is let's first checkthe bio.
Let's first check the hormones.

SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
This is well, let's do it at the same time because
sometimes you okay, therapy Ihad to do to get this guy on his
desk.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like because I don't love themedical model either, because
they just toss the hormones atthem.
So you the diagnosis is fine,low desire, discrepancy desire,
those are fine, whatever peoplecome to.
It's figuring out what iscausing that.
And that is like to go in with aone size fits all.

(40:54):
Oh, with discrepancy desire,we're gonna do sensei focus.
Right.
But I mean, like you're notgonna do it.
So um, that's like start parsingit out.
Is it because the sex itself isbad?
Is it because um, you know,there are serious issues in
relationships?
Sometimes that comes up, youknow.
Is it because there's aphysiological piece, or is it
because they have completelyunrealistic expectations about

(41:16):
what sex should look like atthis point?
Are they not been willing toshift their expectations as I
gotten older?
Like to my mind, it's like whatthat there's the layer that's
really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
Say that again.
The layer that's reallyinteresting is sparsing out
these five options that allmore.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
This was helpful.
And you almost answered the nextone, which is what approach
would you take?
And it's like you have like adecision tree of well, let's
look at this and this and this,and usually it's more than one

(41:47):
thing.

SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
One has caused the other, right?
She's had pain, now she doesn'twant to have sex and she's
scared, and now he's furious,and now we need to like dig
through that to get there,right?
Like, so, but I do try toseparate out.
I just I'm seeing this couplewho are 72 years old and they've

(42:12):
been together like 16 years, andthey hadn't had sex in like 10
years or 15 years, and they'vebeen sent to three doctors, two
other sex therapists.
Somebody sent them to me, andI'm like thinking to myself,
there's what am I gonna do here?
Seriously, it was one of the Idon't know if you ever end up
with that, but like you're likeanyway, they're having sex, and
the reason it was all her fault.
That's what that was thenarrative.

(42:32):
It was all her fault.
She never had any interest, shewas never that, you know, sexy.
Um, you know, she didn't wantto.
They went to all these sextherapists, she never did
anything.
Anyway, she felt broken from dayone on this, right?
Like she felt like she wasalways not good enough, always,
you know, whatever.
So I needed to work with her tomake sure that she didn't feel

(42:53):
so broken anymore.
And then she, do you know what Imean?
Like, so trying to say, like,what what is it?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, what is it that's going towhat is it that's causing the
low desire?
But so often it has to do withthese.
I mean, the low-hanging fruitfor me with is this like
narrative, like that was a morecomplicated one, but the

(43:15):
low-hanging fruit is ournarrative, our narrative that I
always say there's three thingsin our narrative that are so so
unconstructive.
Like, I have an online coursefor low desire, and like this, I
just basically it's based onthese three things.
One is this like think of itlike a movement program, not
like magic pixie dust, right?
Which we talked about, which I'myou know, most sex therapists

(43:36):
are into.
The second thing is this youhave to be relaxed and present.
This enrages me.
I can't even like I'm justjumping up and down, but like
there is there is thisnarrative.
It's all over the internet, it'sall over TikTok, it's all over
with the sex therapist.
Women have to be relaxed andpresent.
If you're not, if you're notrelaxed and present, you're not
gonna have good sex.
And I'm like, you show me awoman who with who's got parents

(43:59):
she's taking care of, kids she'staking care of, you know, a job.
Like, if you tell a woman thatshe's going to have sex when she
retires, if then, do you knowwhat I'm saying?
Like, it is so not.
So I'm like, screw relaxed andpresent and start learning how
to fill your mind with sexythings.
Figure out what it is that youknow what I mean, would be that
fantasizing hijack your ownexperience.
Exactly.

(44:19):
Like you're you're not gonnaempty your mind, maybe on
vacation, and that's lovely whenthat happens, but like you're
not really gonna empty yourmind.
So, so let's not empty yourmind, let's refill it, let's
just get on some literature, dowhatever you need to do to
change the channel.
Don't try to turn them blank,like that doesn't work.
Okay.
And then the third thing is thisidea that like your partner is

(44:42):
supposed to be what turns youon, as opposed to like, come on,
we've been married for 10 years.
I adore my husband.
Like, there's no way in theworld that seeing that man in my
bed is gonna be what gets megoing.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I have to figure out whatturns me on.
That's my responsibility and myjob, not his job.
So those three, I feel likethose three fundamental truths,
they're so distorted in oursociety that that so often leads

(45:05):
women to think they have lowdesire when they are perfectly
normal.
They just need to shift theirway of thinking and figure out
how to handle those things.
Now, again, they're having painor they have an asshole for a
spouse.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Right.
That's different.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:20):
No, that is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
No, I love and agree with like everything you said,
but I don't think I've everheard that uh that succinctly
with here are three ideas thatare absolutely getting in our
way.

SPEAKER_00 (45:31):
So, you know what?
If I could figure out how tosell my course, I'd be so happy.
But I think we're gonna sellcourses at all.
I did it more because I justthought it would be fun.
So um, but those it is that'sexactly I think those three
things are so critical.

SPEAKER_01 (45:46):
Well, okay, all my people go take your course
because these are amazing ideas.
And I do think that these ideasare found for those who are
religious, but I also think thatthose three things are found
outside of religion, also.
Is I need to you need to be theone that's turning me on.
I you know, these ideas of Ineed to be relaxed.

SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
The relaxed and present one really drops drives
me nuts.
Drives me nuts, and also the sextherapists seem to jump into
that also.
And I do get that you have tolearn how to feel what's going
on in your body.
I'm not negating that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
Yeah, that's maybe like one well, this is like off
topic, but one of my complaintsa little bit about Schnorch is
this eyes open sex looking intoeach other.
I'm like, wait a minute, what ifshe has to go somewhere?

SPEAKER_00 (46:27):
I've just got to think about some things.
No, no, totally, totally.
I yes.
I mean, like all of thesepeople, you take the good and
you leave the bad.
Like, yes, you know, totally.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:37):
Okay, we have like one minute.
What do you any additional op-edcommentary, complimentary or
not, as your thoughts about justthe beginning of a new
conversation about consent andwanting and I love that you're
doing this.

SPEAKER_00 (46:51):
I love that.
I think that language is reallyimportant, as we talked about.
And when I hear words likecoercive, it's it scares me a
little because it feels like ittakes something which is gently
a problem.
It's like the same thing I havewith the word trauma, where I
feel like everything is intotrauma now.
And I'm like, this wasn't Imean, I guess it could if people

(47:16):
could hear minor trauma, butthis was like a disruption,
right?
This was a this was a problem.
And but not everything is atrauma, right?
And so sort of parsing out whatis coercive sex versus what is
sex that I don't kind of feellike having, or like what is sex
that is like a pain in the butt?

(47:36):
Like, you know what I mean?
Like that feels a littledifferent to me.
So that's the only thing I throwin here in terms of when I think
about research on this, but Ithink it's amazing, amazing that
you're doing this research.

SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
Thank you.
Do you have ideas for language?
Like, what would what would youcall it if someone was like,
help me come up with someterminology here?
What what would you call that?

SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
That's a great question.
I I really haven't thought aboutthat, but I will, Cammie.
Okay.
I will think about that and I'llsend you an email if I have an
idea.
Seriously.
Yeah.
Um because I do think it'sreally interesting, and I do
think coercion just feels thisfeels like half step before
rape.
Do you know what I mean?
Here we're trying to, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
And that's a concern because I've worked with a lot
of men who are really good guys,and this pattern is alive and
strong, and both people arecoming by this honestly from
these, you know, low education,unrealistic beliefs, and we've
got a good guy, but the outcomeis not great.
And that word really isn't goingto resonate with some couples,
or you know.

SPEAKER_00 (48:35):
Right.
It is really interesting.
It is really, really, reallyinteresting.
Question.
There has to be another word forthis, right?
There has to be.
I just have to think it through.
If you come up with something,pressured, even pressured feels
pressured feels better thancoercive.
Uh-huh.
But even that feels kind of exmaybe maybe focusing more on the

(48:58):
expectations ends of it, right?
Like the choice expectationpiece may be an easier way to
talk to people about it.

SPEAKER_01 (49:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
I will.

SPEAKER_00 (49:12):
I will thank you.
Right.
Well, good luck for you.
This is amazing.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Take good care.
Okay.
Bye bye, bye bye.