July 17, 2025 • 52 mins
What happens when we say yes to sex we don't actually want? In this deeply insightful exploration of "duty sex," I sit down with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fyfe to unpack the profound psychological impact of consenting to unwanted sexual experiences in long-term relationships.
My research has uncovered troubling patterns: when partners (particularly women in this study) consistently consent to sex they don't desire, it creates harmful dynamics that damage both individuals and their relationship. Far from being a simple matter of compromise, these patterns often stem from cultural and religious teachings that frame men as having sexual "needs" and women as responsible for fulfilling them.
Dr. Finlayson-Fyfe brings her expertise as both a PhD in counseling psychology and an LDS relationship coach to challenge our assumptions about sexual desire. She eloquently reframes sexual avoidance not as a disorder but as potential wisdom—your body signaling that something fundamental isn't working in your relationship. We examine how psychological control can create trauma-like responses even without physical coercion, and how both partners often unknowingly contribute to these dynamics.
The conversation takes a hopeful turn as we discuss pathways toward healthier sexuality. We explore how desire naturally thrives in freedom rather than obligation, and how developing what Dr. Finlayson-Fyfe calls "sexual integration" requires cultivating an internal compass rather than merely following external authorities. For couples caught in these patterns, change becomes possible when both partners can honestly examine their contributions and take responsibility for creating something mutually satisfying.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is an LDS relationship and sexuality coach with a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology. Her teaching and coaching focus on helping LDS individuals and couples create greater connection and passion in their emotional and sexual relationships.
In addition to her private practice, Dr. Finlayson-Fife has created five empowering and highly-reviewed online courses. Each course was designed to give LDS individuals and couples the tools requisite to creating healthier lives and stronger intimate relationships. Dr. Finlayson-Fife also offers many workshops and retreats where she teaches these life-changing principles in person.
Dr. Finlayson-Fife is a frequent guest on LDS-themed podcasts on the subjects of sexuality, relationships, mental health, and faith. She is also the creator and host of Room for Two, a popular sex and intimacy coaching podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, sex Therapy 101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me, and one ofthose is a book for the public
(00:30):
about my research aboutregarding long-term outcomes of
consenting to unwanted sex, orduty sex as we sometimes call it
, and in doing that, adding tomy own research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because these were
all recorded over the course ofa year and I wanted to talk to
(00:53):
experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
(01:17):
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
Now I'll give you a little bitof a bio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
(01:37):
This interview was really fun.
It was done with Dr JenniferFinlayson-Fyfe, who's an LDS
relationship and sexuality coach.
She has has a PhD in counselingpsychology.
Her teaching and coaching focuson helping those in the LDS
community, both individuals andcouples, create a greater sense
of connection and passion intheir emotional and sexual
(01:58):
relationships.
I really wanted to talk to DrJennifer about this because I
appreciate her thoughtfulapproach.
She's brilliant in my mind.
She's creating movement in agroup that it's hard to create
movement in, and I respect herincredibly.
So I hope you enjoy theconversation I had about duty
(02:25):
sex with Dr JenniferFinlayson-Fyfe.
So, first of all thank you.
Sure you, yeah, really yeah andum.
So I think you watched that 10minute video that I was just
distilling down the findings um,lisa diamond and I are hoping
to publish it, but in the themeantime I'm going to write a
book proposal, but the sample isso homogeneous that I want, and
(02:49):
I don't want, to be having thisdiscussion in my own echo
chamber of my own creation?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Sure, sure, no, definitely.
Can you just tell me how didyou get your sample?
What was the thing that drewpeople to it?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I tried to do a couple versions and the random
selection, like using MTurk,which is like Amazon research,
where there's people who aredoing getting paid to do surveys
.
That didn't fly.
So it was all social media,which means it probably was an
algorithm of somebody liked this, and so then they showed up.
It was an invitation on socialmedia, so I think that's why it
(03:24):
stayed really homogeneous.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And were you lookingspecifically for Mormon women or
you were just looking?
No, it just happened to be alot of Mormon women.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It did happen to be a lot of Mormon.
The only requirements were,like, I think, english as a
first language, because none ofthe assessments had been
validated in any other languagesOver 30, because we were
looking.
Any research we have now is forco-ed women had been in a
(03:54):
relationship longer than threeyears, because we were wanting
to get data outside of thelimerence phase and long term
and they could say I think I'veconsented to unwanted sex, like
yeah, so those were the criteria.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, and you just happened to get I mean you're in
Idaho, I think.
Did you post it?
Did we post it in the group,Like my?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
group yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I mean, I'm not critiquing that, I was just
curious.
And you were basically sayingthose were the criteria you have
to be over 30.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Basically saying those were the criteria you have
to be over 30.
You have to be married morethan three years, you have to
have consented to unwanted sex.
And then you were looking atthat.
Okay, good, I just want to kindof get a sense of was it like
the population I mean like?
Was it like women who are?
So?
I mean, we had people allacross the country, but really
centralized idaho, oregon, utah,colorado, this, this corridor.
We've got over here in the innerwest that's really influenced
by yeah, religion, you know yeah, right exactly okay, I mean so,
so that first question is whenyou watch that video and you've
(05:10):
got what were my responses to it, I mean there's so many.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's just a bad idea in general to say yes to sex
that you don't desire, becauseit sets off a whole set of
patterns that are very bad.
And and when I say you don'tdesire it, what I would say is
that you can't choose honestly,that you can't say like I want
to be here, because women'sdesire is more responsive than
it is spontaneous.
(05:36):
But when women say yes tosomething that they resent or
they feel that they have to, orthey have to manage his arousal
or they have to, they are theones that have to take care of
his sexual needs.
And of course, this all goes toour, to this LDS culture.
But, um, that it's very, verybad for long-term outcomes, for
(06:01):
sexual happiness for both people, and so so the my and we can
talk about this more in thefollow-up questions, but it fits
a lot of the work that I'vedone around the culture kind of
teaching men that they havesexual needs, teaching women
that they are the ones thatought to take care of those
sexual needs, that men are theones that have desire women are
(06:22):
desirable needs that men are theones that have desire, women
are desirable, and you know,just kind of teaching women a an
orientation of, of duty aroundsexuality.
You could argue, you teach menduty around providing and you
know that they also have dutiesin the marriage.
But you know, I have lots ofwomen who felt like, okay, he's
(06:46):
providing and he's, he's, he'screating the home.
And this is my job is to createa home and to be kind of the
one to handle his sexual needs.
And that just doesn't go well.
I mean it.
Just it makes women hate sex,hate.
Hate it because it's not aboutdesire, it's not about play,
it's not about pleasure, it'snot about self.
(07:07):
I mean, we can get to this, butthere were mormon women in my
dissertation who didn't do that,who saw themselves as equals,
who enjoyed their sexualrelationship.
So that's, that's a group wecan learn from.
But yeah yeah, no question that,that's just just a bad idea and
you weren't too shocked.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Then you're like oh yeah, I probably could have
guessed that that this has thisisn't a good idea it's not a
good idea.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I mean, I think that the thing that I would take
issue with in your framing.
Thank, you, it is now this is mejust going through that twice,
that 10 minute video twice, andwithout looking at all your
questions how you made sense ofthem.
But is there's, in my view butthis is also the framing in
which I think about life andworking with clients and so on
(07:53):
is the idea that?
Well, a couple of ideas.
One is the question of coercion.
There are a lot of reasons thatwomen have unwanted sex and
coercion is just one of them.
Right, and for me the questionis like how much psychological
control does the partner have?
Because if he has high levelsof psychological control over
(08:17):
the woman, I would imagine thePTSD element of it would be much
higher.
That is to say, the PTSDelement of it would be much
higher.
That is to say, they're goingto have a much more high anxiety
, high aversion, high stressresponse to the sexual
(08:37):
experience because they reallydo.
It's like borderline abusive.
They don't feel like I meanthere's no physical trauma as
you're saying, there's nophysical trauma, as you're
saying, there's no violencesexually, but because they see
him as having psychologicalcontrol over her sense of worth,
over her financially.
I think that's a big variablein understanding coercion,
(08:58):
because a husband pouting I'mnot saying that's pleasant and
that it doesn't impact a woman'schoices.
That's still different thancoercion, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
And in terms of its impact.
So men and women do lots ofmanipulative things in intimacy
of marriage.
Right I would be interested inis saying yes to unwanted sex
(09:28):
and how much sex you actuallyhave.
If you are saying yes andyou're having a lot of sex,
that's about coercion.
If you're not having a lot ofsex, it means the low desire
woman is winning, that is to sayshe, she's not without agency.
Now I don't mean to say thatshe likes the sex she's having,
or this isn't a hundred percentunpleasant.
(09:51):
I mean a hundred percentunpleasant for her.
That, but that's different thanhaving a traumatic effect in my
view, in my view, because therereally is the question of how
much agency psychologically doesshe have?
Yeah, yeah.
And I would even say in myclinical Go ahead, you want to?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Oh, I was going to give you a little bit of answers
for that.
So we used we used a postrefusal coercion scale.
That's putting verbal andemotional coercion on a scale
with examples of how what theirpartner did after they said no
so that was one scale we didmeasure to look yeah, yeah.
(10:32):
And then another scale wastrying to figure out, um, your
idea of why they say yes.
So there's a scale.
That's uh reasons for theperson moving towards versus
moving away.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And we did find, with how frequently they're having
sex, that there were both highlevels of these PTSD or
psychological, emotional, sexualresponses, for those who were
frequent and also infrequent.
It was interesting to see thescatter plot.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, so I have.
I mean again, this is withoutme really looking at the data in
a cold way to really understandbut the questions that were
coming up for me was is that agood PTSD response?
If it's just sexual avoidance,that's not, is that meaning that
would be a questionablevariable for me, because you
don't have to have PTSD to notlike the sex you're having right
(11:26):
and to avoid it right.
So I mean.
So I would care about that.
There's also, in my view, in myexperience of working with
women because we're not idiotsand we look for control in our
lives right that a lot of womenwill have it to like get him to
get a week of freedom you knowwhat I mean.
So they'll have the sex right,but they do it resentfully they
(11:51):
do it while feeling like theydon't have a choice, even though
they do okay, like that is tosay, they're kind of
participating in the idea thatthey don't have choices when
they really do and and and Idon't mean to say that they're
how to say it, I don't know.
Let me see if I can explainthis better.
Um, they're kind of actuallyparticipating in the sense of
(12:17):
victimhood, through that choice.
And so then they feel like, likeI'm the good one, I do this.
Yeah, I'm the, I'm the kind ofself righteous martyr.
That's what I'm trying to getat.
And so, yeah, they're doing it,but it's, it gives them more
psychological control in themarriage.
Now I mean, I really work withthe spectrum of women.
(12:38):
There are women who are genuine.
I had a client where she,genuinely her husband, was so
like he saw her as the brokenone sexually.
He would give her such a hardtime about not wanting to have
it.
He would know that she didn'twant to have it.
He would have it with heranyway the whole time and he's
like I need to feel close to her.
I'm like, okay, you know shedoesn't want it, you know, and
(12:59):
you're saying this makes youfeel close to her.
You're like you're, you'rewhacked, like this is crazy,
right.
So there's that, and she wouldalways want to make it her
problem because in a way, thatwas less scary for her than
standing up to this bully.
Okay, so that's one end of thisand it's like pretty normal.
I mean, they're no longerMormon, but like how to say it?
(13:22):
Like this, this is not anunusual presentation for me,
right?
The woman who's managing thesuperior, critical husband who
hates sex for good reasonbecause it's just managing a
child.
But then I worked with womenwho, like they, married into a
sexual partnership.
They knew it was a sexualpartnership.
I don't mean to say thatobligates them, they can still
(13:44):
say no, but they treat it likethey're the righteous one and
he's the imposition with hisneeds, and so they, they have
the psychological control and hehas all this sexual anxiety.
He's also learned in his Mormonculture and she has him by the
balls in a sense, through kindof shaming that he has this
desire, right?
So she's saying yes, but sheuses it to accrue her own sense
(14:10):
that she's owed in the marriage.
So do you see what I'm sayingLike.
I don't see it as somebody whosays yes is participating in
their own trauma, is beingcoerced.
It's like and I know you're notmaking it that simple- I just
think it's a lot more complexright and what I was seeing in
the model and I'm again.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I'm just saying that without knowing all the details
of what's in your no, Iappreciate it, because I I feel
like I'm in the learner position, kind of of feeling like, oh, I
found this thing, what'severybody think?
Instead of taking the positionof I found this thing and this
is what it is.
I'm just like okay, are wehaving this conversation and if
there's some long-term outcomesand wanting to know what's
(14:50):
everybody think this is from,and you're saying it's more
complex, we can't look at itthat simply.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yes and and you're saying it's more complex we
can't look at it that simply yes, and what you're pointing to is
real.
I mean like that is to say yes.
It's true that there are womenwho I've worked with, lots of
these women who have learnedthat they shouldn't say no, that
if they do, their husband isgoing to.
You know, I have lots of womenwhose mother said to them on
their the night before theirwedding don't ever say no to
them, because oh yeah yeah,there's 100, you know so they're
.
(15:16):
They go immediately into lowdesire because it turns from I
want to be close to you, this isexciting into I have a job to
do, and it kills the wholeecology of desire and then it
gets more and more miserable andthey feel more and more without
a self in that dynamic and theyabsolutely hate it.
(15:37):
And their husband's unhappy toobecause he never feels desired.
And you know, and sometimes mentry to handle that by having
more of that bad sex and it justdoesn't go well.
So it is real and it certainly.
You know the hypo.
I've never liked the hypoactivedesire diagnosis because Me
either, I'm not a fan, it's justlike you know.
(15:58):
Yeah, it's a really nice ideathat.
Look, there probably are womenout there who have a more
biological, not aversion to sex,right, or just something that's
more innate in them.
Either they're high anxiety orthey have a low sexual response.
But the thing is it's socontextual, most sexual desire
and a lot of women have beentaught and are participating in
(16:23):
meanings that make sexundesirable for women, and so so
much of my work is abouthelping women actually look at
the meanings and what would besex worth wanting and how could
they create something moredesirable in their lives where
they get to be a self, that thesexual relationship doesn't
reflect just their husband'ssexual interests but theirs as
(16:44):
well.
And so, anyhow, I think that Ioften am saying to women.
Low sexual desire is often verygood judgment.
It's like you know this isabout not desirable is often
very good judgment.
It's like you know this isabout it's not desirable.
Wanting like let's look atwhat's happening, um, because
this belongs to you also, so, um, so I would just be careful
(17:07):
with the causal element.
You know, like calling it asyndrome, sometimes I feel like
the wrong people take thosediagnoses and run with them.
And the ones who they actuallyfit are less likely to take them
.
You know what I'm saying.
Like that is you know, like, ohyeah, I'm married to a
narcissist and in fact they'rethe narcissist you know.
So I mean it's just it's we likethose ideas that kind of make
(17:30):
us feel like victims often andpowerless.
And I'm about helping women andmen.
But you know, women inparticular claim, get a hold of
the meanings, to claim whatactually will forge the life
they want.
Because those are the women whodo well in sex, those are the
women who do well in life.
Right, and going to that otherquestion of like, so the women,
(17:55):
what was the second question?
I'm like what does it?
I want to make sure I've hitall the ideas there.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You're okay.
The second question is aboutaspects of LDS community that
might keep this going, thatmight promote this.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, just to the degree I mean it's improving in
the LDS community, but just thewhole idea of like promising in
the temple.
It's changed.
But you're going to you deferto your husband as he defers to
God.
It's just setting up ahierarchy, a dependence.
You're supposed to not have acareer.
I mean, this is so many of myclientele.
You are supposed to basicallyhitch your cart to his horse,
(18:32):
and so it makes it.
And so when we turn women intocaretakers of men's sexuality,
(19:01):
you are absolutely working, inthe meaning that is, 100%
against sexual desire for women.
Women want the opposite.
If anything, they want to betaken care of.
Women who like sex.
They are surrendering intopleasure.
They are not.
The nurturing muscle that'ssaved for children is not
operating in a sexualrelationship at all in good sex
(19:22):
for women.
So, um, so we, we educate menand women exactly into the
meaning frame that kills desireforever more.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's interesting.
That's kind of one of myquestions is that we're playing
with.
Is this a U S thing?
Is this a religious thing?
Is this a gendered thing?
And I hear you saying this is adynamic thing of hierarchy, yes
, which removes choice andleaves the woman feeling
choiceless, even though that'salmost a fantasy.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I mean the more and more that we have laws that
allow women to own property, tovote, to drive.
Okay, like you know, women havehad more and more structural
equality, which is a big deal,because when you didn't have it,
when you couldn't divorce him,I mean it doesn't even matter
how autonomous you were in yourhead, you were economically
(20:11):
dependent.
Now we have created a realityin which we're becoming more and
more structurally equal.
We can provide for ourselves,we don't have to be married.
But there is a psychologicallag, and I think it's true
inside the church and outside,and probably more pronounced in
Christian religions andfundamentalist religions,
(20:32):
because they often teach anarrow view of femininity and
masculinity, which is about menas head of the house, women as
support, and very narrow viewsof that are much more
utilitarian in their focus andnot about equality and
collaboration and mutuality andso on.
So I do see it outside.
(20:54):
I mean like even even in myview, the sexual revolution and
so on, it's still not gone greatfor women.
Okay, like women are stilltrying to get.
One of the challenges isbiological.
I think women are much moreattuned to the desires and
feelings of other people thanmen are as a group in the
reverse.
That's probably good forkeeping babies alive.
Women are good at mapping whatother people want and feel, but
(21:18):
then adolescent girls are tryingto prove themselves through
being sexual and often havingunwanted sexual encounters in
high school that look likefreedom but are not about their
desire.
They're not referencing theirdesires, their desires.
They're trying to prove thatthey're sexually free and
liberated and cool and nottaking their own desires
(21:45):
seriously, which is a problem,you know, and so I don't know
yet.
I think we're doing better as aculture as a whole, but I think
women taking their own desiresseriously is is a challenge, and
one that's really essential togood sex.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Anything else on thoughts about how modernism
specifically may hurt that?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Let me think you know just all the object lessons.
I mean I think these things arehappening much less now but
these sort of the desirabilityelements and that you'll lose
your desirability through beingsexual.
In my own dissertation researchthere were women who were
masking how much desire andarousal they had from their
husband because they were afraidthat that would make them seem
(22:28):
less virtuous, less spiritual.
Yeah, I mean, I think thepornography challenge too is
that there's just women who feellike they're in this duality of
like.
I don't want to have sex withyou because you are engaging
sexual energy elsewhere and Iresent that and I resent your
(22:49):
dishonesty or whatever, but thenI feel like I should because
you have these sexual needs andif I don't take care of them
then you will.
I think you had a quote in asimilar vein to that.
So I think that those are allelements that I see as
problematic.
I think to go to the nextquestion, like who are the women
(23:12):
that we can learn from?
I think the women who were theminority in my dissertation
research, but they were still.
They were actually fine withthe idea of different family
roles, like they didn't really.
They were fine with thinking oftheir husband as the head of
the home in a sense, but when itcame down to how they actually
(23:34):
made decisions, they werecollaborative.
They made decisions together.
They worked together.
There was no inequality.
There was no doing what yourhusband thought.
They also had economic capacity,whether or not they were
working full-time, they could beif they wanted to be.
(23:54):
So they were not dependenteconomically.
They had choices.
So they were choosing themarriage and they took their
desires seriously before theygot married and while they're in
marriage, both sexually andjust on every front.
So they were their own force tobe reckoned with in the best
sense.
They were a self and they chosea partner, not because they
(24:16):
needed a man, and these womenoften were virginal before
marriage.
They were conservative in theirdecisions, but it wasn't to earn
a future man's approval.
They were like no, because Icare about sex being in a
commitment context.
For me it was like in line withtheir own desires and so they
actually saw the culture assupporting ultimately what they
(24:39):
wanted.
So again, it wasn't in liketrying to defer so that they're
good enough and that people saythat they're good.
It was more like this fits withwhat I want.
And so they were prettyconservative at times and
disappointed the men.
They were dating and things,but they were like unapologetic
and that's really the way Iwould describe these women is.
They didn't apologize for theirsexuality, for their desires in
(25:03):
general and their specificdesire and their sexual desires
specifically.
They really had men thatrespect they married men that
respected them and cared abouttheir desires, and so they saw
and they also saw.
They saw men and women as justfundamentally equal.
They saw the body and sexualityas good, like they had no issue
(25:23):
with that.
They saw the doctrine of thebody as validating of sex.
They saw the law of chastity notas a way to earn your value,
but more like a way of elevatingthe meaning of sex in a way
that they thought was good forthem, like they were, like I
feel some of the women would say, like I feel sorry for women
that are sort of in this postthey didn't use this language
but like the post-sexualrevolution culture where men
(25:45):
don't owe you anything and likewomen are out there just like
they're, like I don't want that,I want a man that's committed.
So they saw the culture as sortof supporting their interests.
They they separated sexism fromsexual conservatism and a lot
of times we push those twotogether, like you know to be,
(26:06):
for women to be free they shouldbe as free to have uncommitted
sex, as men are.
You know that kind of idea,that's sort of a right cultural
idea, and I think that theyrejected that idea.
They were, like you know, womenand I think the research shows
us as women as a whole prefermore commitment because it's
(26:29):
more biologically risky to besexual and so, psychologically
speaking, women tend to prefer acommitted partner, that's,
that's even sexual fantasies areoften around a man who actually
values the woman as a wholeperson and so so, anyway, so
they were.
They were clear that what theywanted in the sexual realm
(26:51):
counted and they could ask mento meet it.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I think in the research.
Right, we've got to look atboth, not just this 53% that had
negative outcomes, but thenthat 47 that was like there
weren't negative outcomes.
And I hear you saying like thesolution or the difference is
that degree of internalauthority or internal legitimacy
, exactly the degree betweenyour decision and your because I
was going through it and I wastalking to my husband.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I'm like I bet you've had unwanted sex sometimes.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Just like I have.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
That is you know it's like I'm not really that, but
yeah, okay, I'll rally like,okay, yeah, and.
But if you can back up yourchoice, cause I think a lot of
times people make choices butthen they resent their partner
for their choice, right, andthat's different Like somebody
who's going to make it somiserable, okay, your sense of
choices is dissipating, okay,but like if a lot of times we
(27:44):
were like, oh yeah, somebodyasked us to do something, we say
yes and then we resent themEven though we said yes.
I mean, like out of the sexualrealm people can do this kind of
thing.
So, yeah, like I think, ifsomebody makes a choice and they
can back up their choices, like, yeah, I can do that.
You know, I don't think it'sgoing to have a negative because
you feel, ultimately, it wasn'tmy idea.
If it was up to me entirely,I'd say no, but like, since I
(28:06):
love my partner we're apartnership Sometimes we do
things that aren't our firstidea for each other, but I can
back it up, I can choose it, Ican say yes to it sincerely.
Other, but I can back it up, Ican choose it, I can say yes to
it sincerely.
I think that's not going tohave negative impacts.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's a protective factor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What would you do with yourlens?
You've got this couple on yourcouch and you see this dynamic.
I mean this kind of explainsyour whole shtick.
Yeah, what you know, you, you,you.
You've done a fantastic job ofmaking it clear in your career
(28:46):
and your work of the theoreticalorientation.
You have right, some.
You're really clear on yourlens and in all of your work
you're very clear.
So got this couple on yourcouch.
You've might have done this,had these, this couple, on your
couch every day for the last 20years, I don't know, but you've
(29:06):
got.
You've got this couple on yourcouch with your lens.
How are you going to work withthis couple who's experiencing
this dynamic?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, we're like the specific one where she's saying
yes because she feels so coerced.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, and she's got high anxiety, high avoidance.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, and she's got high anxiety, high avoidance, a
product of purity culture, andhe's, he's ready to kind of
diagnose her as beingfundamentally flawed and have
you liked my office Like isthere a?
yeah, exactly yeah.
And so he's basically likesaying you need to solve your
(30:06):
issues so that we're okay.
And the problem, of course, isnot only is he doing this in the
sexual realm, he's doing thisin every realm, which is I know
how things are, and hepatronizes his wife, and usually
then this woman if this hasbeen a marriage that's lasted a
few years is on some levelcomplicit.
(30:27):
I don't mean to say that she'slike evil or something, but
she's like complicit in adynamic where she's trying to
make him be okay with her and sohe can readily put pressure on
her and she will tend to yieldto keep him happy with her, to
prove she's trying to prove,she's enough to prove whatever.
And so my first goal in thatwould be to dismantle his
(30:52):
illusion about his wife andhimself like who's actually got
the problem, because she's soready to attach to the idea that
she's got a problem, ratherthan her dislike of sex makes
perfect sense with this guy, andso I'm challenging that.
(31:14):
You know he is asking for a kindof sexual experience that would
make any smart woman recoil,and I you know I try to say it
as nicely as I can, but I'mtrying to show him how
undesirable the sex on offer is,because this is about trying to
earn a self, prove a self,manage him like another child in
(31:35):
her life, and that that iscompletely the opposite of
anything close to desire.
Now, the other thing is that alot of men in this sort of
archetype here don't.
Now, the other thing is that alot of men in this archetype
here don't actually want a wifethat is full of desire and has
her own ideas and thoughts andpassions, and they're scary
those women for a weak man likethis.
(31:56):
They want the woman to slideunderneath them.
They want that kind of control.
I want your sexuality to thriveunder my control, and that
doesn't work.
And so it's just helping bothof them see what's actually
happening and why it makes sensethat she doesn't like it.
(32:17):
Because I'll say very clearlylike women well, this is true
for men too but like, sexualdesire thrives in freedom, in
the sense of freedom.
And if you don't feel like youare free whether that's real or
imagined, that is, whether ornot you have a coercive person
or you just can't tolerate beinga disappointment, like some
people need so much to be neededthat, even though they're
(32:40):
married to a nice guy, like theymake themselves say yes because
they're so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Disappointing yeah Right that they're saying yes,
the fear of disappointment is sohigh.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, yeah exactly, are not good for them and not
good for their partner, and soum so anyway, so this idea of
freedom and that this is not amarriage in which freedom is yet
happening, um and you know,then I would be about her
working.
I'd be helping her to look ather need and and fear of not
(33:14):
pleasing her, kind of revolvingher sense of self around his
approval, which is a, is a toughgo because he operates in
disapproval like as a way to getcontrol, so it's approval is
not something that's on offerreally.
And so helping her to see umthe situation better and to you
(33:39):
know, if, if this is a marriageshe really wants and she wants
sex that she would also enjoy,then it's about him stepping
down from his superiority,looking at his own anxieties
about sex, which are often a lotof anxieties also in my
(34:01):
clientele.
But when they can frame it onthe lower desire partner, they
don't have to look at their ownanxieties right, they've already
decided.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
The problem isn't here.
Yeah, it's not me.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, and if you exactly, and if you want me
sexually, then I don't have toworry about whether or not my
sexuality is legit or not, andso it's just an easy target.
Um, and being high desiredoesn't mean you don't have
sexual anxieties, just it justmeans you're higher, it just
means you have a lot oftestosterone.
So it doesn't necessarily haveanything to do with how
(34:30):
accepting you are of yourself oryour sexuality, so anyway.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
but then it's about You're right, that is always
framed that way that the higherdesire partner has less hangups.
But that's absolutely not true.
100% not true in my experienceTons of hangups tons of
anxieties and insecurities andstill desire.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Because I think of, of sexual integration, which is
like a, a variable that I'mwriting about, which is is this
ability to really be at peacewith yourself as a sexual being,
so your capacity to be sexuallyintimate, literally like show
up, share your sexuality, careabout your impact on a partner,
care about them.
You know that's about sexualmaturity.
(35:10):
High desire is just.
I want to have an orgasm.
And that's not necessarilyanything to do with maturation
and ability to love anybody, orcomfort, even with sexuality,
because a lot of people can't beintimate with it.
They have to have their sexualexperience be in non-intimate
situations.
So I would you know.
(35:31):
And then like figuring out,like how she can show up more in
the marriage and her ability tosay no, like she can't say yes
if she can't say no, she can'tdisappoint, she can't hold her
own.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
If she can't get a hold of what she actually wants,
then this is not a marriagethat's going to be capable of
collaboration and intimacy.
That's a much different takeright than someone.
A woman made a quote that theirtherapist had told them.
You know, sex is like thedishes it's just got to get done
.
Yeah, that's a terribleterrible idea.
(36:02):
Yeah, not where you're going tostart or go with this.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
No, oh gosh, never.
Yeah, that's a terrible,terrible idea.
Yeah, not where you're going tostart or go with this.
Oh gosh, never, never, never.
And you know, yeah, I meanthere's a lot to say about all
that, but no, I would as soon asyou put it into duty, you've
killed it.
Ever being about passion, andmost people show up talking
about frequency with me, butwhat they're really trying to
get at is passion.
They're to get at.
I want to feel desired againthat's helpful.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
So that's you know what you do if this couple
landed on your couch.
The next question is what wouldyou do?
It might be culturally for theyou know, uh uh, the lds folks.
It may just be outside of thatdynamic even.
But if, if you were in chargeof making a prevention plan,
(36:48):
what do you see needs to?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
happen this is in the book I'm working on really is
is, first of all, with kids.
If you're talking to kids, youwant to talk about sexual
integration, not sexualrepression, nor sexual
indulgence either.
I I think both are bad.
It's like either anorexia orcompulsive eating Neither one.
(37:11):
Are you actually at peace withyourself?
What integration is is beingable to accept your sexual
nature as a human being.
And then how do I make choicesthat accrue to my wellbeing and
the wellbeing of myrelationships?
How do I use my sexuality tocreate goodness in my life and
in my, you know, most importantrelationships, so on?
So it's, it's more of a.
(37:33):
I have this capacity.
That's legitimate, but it needsa kind of cultivation to be
something capable of reallybringing happiness into my life.
And so it's so much in religiousculture is fear of like.
It's kind of almost like Satanis in our sexuality and that
(37:56):
sensual pleasure is not legitfor the religious person, and
that just sets us up into aconstant tug of war internally.
And a lot of men think the tugof war is going to be solved
when they get married and thentheir partner is not interested
because she also has anxietiesabout the sexual part of her,
and then he starts talking abouthis needs, and then she's
(38:19):
trying to fulfill his needs, butnobody's needs are getting met,
nobody's happy, and so it'slike breaking the whole framing
of needs and instead about howdo we learn to create something
mutual through our sexuality,how do we learn to love and care
about each other and to shareour erotic nature with one
(38:42):
another in a way that createsbeauty and happiness for two
people?
So like what?
That's?
Speaker 1 (38:51):
a collaborative process, and you have to be two
people that take yourselfseriously to cultivate something
mutual I'm hearing you say letme see if I'm getting this
you're hearing and I hadn'tnecessarily thought of it in
this term that mutuality hingeson both people knowing who they
are clearly.
Yeah, and in religioushouseholds we're really skipping
(39:14):
.
We're not encouraging people toknow themselves sexually.
We're really bypassing thatfirst step that you're saying.
Mutuality hangs on bothpeople's ability to see
themselves clearly and know whothey are and what they want.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
And what I would also say and I'm writing about this
a lot is that to the degree that, depending on the household
because in religious householdsthere's quite a wide variation
in this but to the degree thatyou are taught to reference
outside of yourself versusinternally.
So how much is it about do whatauthority figures say versus
(39:52):
okay, here are the rules.
And how do you feel about this?
What is your response to this?
So you're learning an internalcompass to be able to know
yourself sexually, but alsoemotionally and otherwise you
have to cultivate a stronginternal compass.
That's really the only wayyou're capable of intimacy,
because I think up until thatpoint it's more in terms of duty
(40:12):
and roles and maybe cooperationeven like I'll scratch your
back if you scratch mine but notreally collaborative or
intimate.
And so you have to learn toknow who you are, and just a lot
of people don't.
They are so used to deferringto what others say they should
do or should believe or shouldthink that they haven't really
(40:36):
cultivated an internal referencepoint.
That's really quite necessaryto have the best kind of
intimate relationship.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Quite necessary to have the best kind of intimate
relationship.
Why, and you said, why do younot see this as a desire
disorder?
They're on your couch.
She's avoidant, anxious,developing some aversion.
Why is this not a desiredisorder as outlined in like?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
the clinical DSM, because I would just say it's
not a disorder, it's acompletely congruent response,
it's orderly.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, wow, that was a really, really acute way of
saying that.
Yeah, because it's not adisorder.
This is rational, this makessense.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yes, it's sensical because, again, desire and
freedom go together.
That's why a woman can be lowdesire, low desire, low desire
in a marriage where she feelspressured and she's got it.
And then she meets somehandsome guy at the gym and all
of a sudden she has a ton ofdesire.
Because it's connected tofreedom.
And I would argue monogamy isarguably tough on the sense of
freedom, but the more you haveforged a self, the more you have
(41:50):
freedom, even within a choiceof monogamy.
So that is because you canbelong to yourself and your
thoughts and your desires, andyou can be honest and authentic
when we need people's approvaltoo much or we need them to do
what makes us feel good too much, then we start feeling trapped
by the marriage, and so freedomis.
(42:16):
Lots of women don't feel that intheir lives.
You know, men have their ownversions of this, even like, you
know, p, e and E, d and so on.
It's like about anxiety andabout the invalidation they are
confronting.
In sex, Like for men, it's.
It's brutal to feel like I aman intrusion, she does not want
me here.
I have no other legitimateoutlet Like, so they also have
(42:37):
their own.
I really don't want to frame itas just like women are being
acted upon because men havetheir own deep anxieties about
this and it's painful anddifficult and I don't want to be
an intrusion on her, but I alsofeel so alone and unwanted and
it's all very confusing.
How do I actually createsomething better?
(43:00):
And so a lot of people areundereducated, I mean, I think.
And so again, just going backto the previous question, the
more that we can create likewhat is it we're actually aiming
for and what is it and not, youknow, shaming and a lot of fear
, but more desire-based likewhat am I actually striving to
create in my embodiment as asexual being?
(43:22):
That's going to have muchbetter outcomes for us than
fear-based.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, we're kind of aligned.
Well, we're fairly aligned onthat, because in the back of my
head I was thinking a similarthing of this might be things
going right, not things goingwrong.
This is her internal wisdom,saying not like this, I don't
want it like this.
You know, yeah, and and thatthat anxiety and that, uh, avoid
.
You know, the avoidance isprobably a coping mechanism for
(43:50):
the anxiety, but the anxietybeing, yeah, not something going
wrong, but something goingright, being like right, wake up
.
This is not working yeah, youdon't want it like this yeah,
the body's signaling.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
This is not working for me and you know, I think,
where some women get stuck orlow desire people get stuck, is
kind of like what would work forme, like what would I want I
don't mean to say anybody has towant sex or has to create a
sexual relationship againeverybody gets to choose what
they want to do in their lifeand create in their life, but
too often it's just like avoid,avoid, rather than what is it
(44:22):
that I would actually find liketo be a good part of my life or
what I would like more of?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, yeah.
That brings us to the last one,and I'm just interested you've
you've given a lot of thoughts.
Are there additional ones whereyou You've given a lot of
thoughts?
Are there additional ones thatare just op-ed, commentary,
complimentary or not?
As we're looking through thisand we're sitting, what is this
thing that is showing up inrelationships?
Speaker 2 (45:01):
I mean, I think the thing that stands out as
important in the work you'redoing is just how important it
is to not say yes to sex youdon't want.
My only caution would be not toyou but to anybody who takes
that idea is that I've said thata lot.
And then I have women who arelike, well, I don't want it, so
you know, I'm just not going tosay yes to it.
And again, fair, they really doget to decide, but not like how
to say it.
But on the other hand, I am ina partnership and so, yeah, I
(45:25):
shouldn't say yes to somethingthat is not pleasurable and I
don't want because it's not, butlike, how am I going to handle
the fact that I'm married to aman that wants a sexual
relationship with me?
And so what is?
What is my response to that?
If I am making the response ofI don't want a sexual
relationship full stop, then Ishould be honest about it and
(45:47):
claim it and then let him figureout what he's going to do with
that.
But if I don't, because I Ifind a lot of women I keep
saying women but just like lowerdesire people, you know where
they they can be low desirebecause their higher desire
partner is always revolvingaround them and so they know
that they're secure where.
When the higher desire personsays, you know what I'm going to
(46:10):
take no for an answer, I'mgoing to stop trying to make
this something you don't want itto be, then they get very
activated, like wait a minute,wait a minute.
Like I don't want you to giveup, but you know they're not
actually taking responsibilityfor the fact that I want this to
be sexually exclusive, I wantthis to be.
That's fine and good that youdon't want the sex you've been
(46:32):
having.
But then there's this spacelike, okay, what is the sex I
would want?
What is it that I want to sayyes to?
So it's not just in thisreaction to outside forces.
That's the only way you'regoing to create something
peaceful.
So I yeah.
So I think it's importantbecause it has such negative
impact but also helping women to, or low desire people to get to
(46:57):
what is what would yes looklike?
Or thinking about, what is itthat's happening that makes me
not want this, and what impactwill saying yes have on it and
what impact will saying no haveon it and what can I really
stand behind?
And so helping people takedeeper responsibility for their
choices is always the way out.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean, I've seen that too,Someone taking the one up
position of I don't ever wantsex, with the attitude of and
you should be cool with that,instead of realizing like I
don't think I ever want to havesex again.
That might not be cool with you.
What would we do?
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Right, yeah, right right.
Or knowing that he gets to makechoices too he gets to make
choices too.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, and I appreciate thecaution of, uh, not taking too
simplistic of a view to see itas a complex dynamic, and I
almost heard you saying in eachof the questions when it gets
too simplistic, people can usethat to manipulate it, yeah.
(48:04):
When we go too simplistic, wejust manipulate each other and
take the I'm right position.
But when we're looking at it asa complex dynamic, there's
shared responsibility.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Right, and who am I in this and who am I in my life?
And yeah, I always find that'sthe thing that helps people get
healthier is just taking ahundred percent responsibility
for themselves and their choices, and no responsibility for
other people's choices.
What I mean is I have to figureout if I'm going to be in a
(48:36):
sexual relationship and if I am,how and in what form, and my
spouse gets to make their ownchoices about that, right, so
it's um it.
It's just when we're lessmature in our development, we
get very, we co-construct ourpowerlessness in a way that
keeps relationships stuck.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I've got an additional question.
I know we're right up againstthe clock and I didn't prepare
you, but how often do you seepeople do this to take the
responsibility to turn it aroundand to create a mutually
satisfying sexual experience?
I believe it's possible and I'mwondering I mean, it's so
subjective, It's- very possible.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
It's very possible.
I mean, it depends a lot.
I see it happen quite a bitactually, but I think it depends
on a few things.
One is how unhealthy is thecouple?
So some people are just kind oftrapped in a meaning and then
they don't even work with me.
They listen to podcasts, theytake the courses and they're
like they can see what they'vebeen doing and they can start
(49:42):
not doing it anymore, and so itjust starts getting better and
they start respecting each othermore and desiring each other
more and they just are given anew way of understanding what's
happening and a new form ofpartnership is emerges and a new
form of partnership emerges.
(50:04):
I think there's people that aremuch more trapped in.
You know, like talking aboutthe kind of archetypal couple
where he's very coercive anddemanding and she's compliant.
You know they both came from.
I have a couple in mind.
They both came from homes wherethe father was, you know, on
his side, was demanding and themother just did whatever.
And she came from a home whereher mother did whatever her
father did, even though theywere very toxic relationships.
So they're very accustomed tothis way of being and so it's a
(50:28):
much harder lift.
I'm not saying people can't makeprogress, but it requires if
it's going to really change.
It requires both people thatare willing to look honestly at
themselves and deal withthemselves and really change
what they're doing to createsomething better, freer, happier
.
And you don't have to go fromzero to a hundred for the
(50:50):
marriage, even when people arelike in a really tough spot and
they just start doing better.
And they start, you know, likeyou don't come in with the
criticism and you watch yourselfand you like settle down, and
she doesn't just run into, likecomply, but she kind of settles
down.
You know things can get better.
Um, even if they're not as goodas maybe they might want, they
still are operating in amarriage that feels freer, um,
(51:14):
so, but for me, my experiencewith people is seeing themselves
honestly is their best chance.
Now people can take what.
I say and be like, no, I'm notgoing to deal with that and I'm
going to disagree with her andwhatever.
But when people will see it andsay, okay, I see how I'm part
of the problem and they dealwith their half, they get
(51:34):
clearer inside and they increasethe chance that something
better in the marriage willhappen.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
There's plenty of people who are able or willing
to do that part.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yeah, that's right.
I appreciate your intelligenceand your experience and your
lens and your time and themountains you're moving in your
own world and your own circle ofinfluence has been really I'm
not trying to blow smoke, Ireally hope you see the good you
(52:06):
do for people, even if it isjust a podcast or a course.
I've seen the LDS world almostshifting on its access a degree
or two from your influence and Ithink we're all grateful for it
.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
Yeah, thank you I really appreciate it.
Well, have a good day.
Well, thank you, tammy, you too, and and good luck with
everything you're doing.
And so, yeah, thank you Allright, take care Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Thank you.
Hello, sex Therapy 101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me, and one ofthose is a book for the public
(00:30):
about my research aboutregarding long-term outcomes of
consenting to unwanted sex, orduty sex as we sometimes call it
, and in doing that, adding tomy own research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because these were
all recorded over the course ofa year and I wanted to talk to
(00:53):
experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
(01:17):
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
Now I'll give you a little bitof a bio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
(01:37):
This interview was really fun.
It was done with Dr JenniferFinlayson-Fyfe, who's an LDS
relationship and sexuality coach.
She has has a PhD in counselingpsychology.
Her teaching and coaching focuson helping those in the LDS
community, both individuals andcouples, create a greater sense
of connection and passion intheir emotional and sexual
(01:58):
relationships.
I really wanted to talk to DrJennifer about this because I
appreciate her thoughtfulapproach.
She's brilliant in my mind.
She's creating movement in agroup that it's hard to create
movement in, and I respect herincredibly.
So I hope you enjoy theconversation I had about duty
(02:25):
sex with Dr JenniferFinlayson-Fyfe.
So, first of all thank you.
Sure you, yeah, really yeah andum.
So I think you watched that 10minute video that I was just
distilling down the findings um,lisa diamond and I are hoping
to publish it, but in the themeantime I'm going to write a
book proposal, but the sample isso homogeneous that I want, and
(02:49):
I don't want, to be having thisdiscussion in my own echo
chamber of my own creation?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Sure, sure, no, definitely.
Can you just tell me how didyou get your sample?
What was the thing that drewpeople to it?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I tried to do a couple versions and the random
selection, like using MTurk,which is like Amazon research,
where there's people who aredoing getting paid to do surveys
.
That didn't fly.
So it was all social media,which means it probably was an
algorithm of somebody liked this, and so then they showed up.
It was an invitation on socialmedia, so I think that's why it
(03:24):
stayed really homogeneous.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And were you lookingspecifically for Mormon women or
you were just looking?
No, it just happened to be alot of Mormon women.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It did happen to be a lot of Mormon.
The only requirements were,like, I think, english as a
first language, because none ofthe assessments had been
validated in any other languagesOver 30, because we were
looking.
Any research we have now is forco-ed women had been in a
(03:54):
relationship longer than threeyears, because we were wanting
to get data outside of thelimerence phase and long term
and they could say I think I'veconsented to unwanted sex, like
yeah, so those were the criteria.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, and you just happened to get I mean you're in
Idaho, I think.
Did you post it?
Did we post it in the group,Like my?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
group yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I mean, I'm not critiquing that, I was just
curious.
And you were basically sayingthose were the criteria you have
to be over 30.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Basically saying those were the criteria you have
to be over 30.
You have to be married morethan three years, you have to
have consented to unwanted sex.
And then you were looking atthat.
Okay, good, I just want to kindof get a sense of was it like
the population I mean like?
Was it like women who are?
So?
I mean, we had people allacross the country, but really
centralized idaho, oregon, utah,colorado, this, this corridor.
We've got over here in the innerwest that's really influenced
by yeah, religion, you know yeah, right exactly okay, I mean so,
so that first question is whenyou watch that video and you've
(05:10):
got what were my responses to it, I mean there's so many.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's just a bad idea in general to say yes to sex
that you don't desire, becauseit sets off a whole set of
patterns that are very bad.
And and when I say you don'tdesire it, what I would say is
that you can't choose honestly,that you can't say like I want
to be here, because women'sdesire is more responsive than
it is spontaneous.
(05:36):
But when women say yes tosomething that they resent or
they feel that they have to, orthey have to manage his arousal
or they have to, they are theones that have to take care of
his sexual needs.
And of course, this all goes toour, to this LDS culture.
But, um, that it's very, verybad for long-term outcomes, for
(06:01):
sexual happiness for both people, and so so the my and we can
talk about this more in thefollow-up questions, but it fits
a lot of the work that I'vedone around the culture kind of
teaching men that they havesexual needs, teaching women
that they are the ones thatought to take care of those
sexual needs, that men are theones that have desire women are
(06:22):
desirable needs that men are theones that have desire, women
are desirable, and you know,just kind of teaching women a an
orientation of, of duty aroundsexuality.
You could argue, you teach menduty around providing and you
know that they also have dutiesin the marriage.
But you know, I have lots ofwomen who felt like, okay, he's
(06:46):
providing and he's, he's, he'screating the home.
And this is my job is to createa home and to be kind of the
one to handle his sexual needs.
And that just doesn't go well.
I mean it.
Just it makes women hate sex,hate.
Hate it because it's not aboutdesire, it's not about play,
it's not about pleasure, it'snot about self.
(07:07):
I mean, we can get to this, butthere were mormon women in my
dissertation who didn't do that,who saw themselves as equals,
who enjoyed their sexualrelationship.
So that's, that's a group wecan learn from.
But yeah yeah, no question that,that's just just a bad idea and
you weren't too shocked.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Then you're like oh yeah, I probably could have
guessed that that this has thisisn't a good idea it's not a
good idea.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I mean, I think that the thing that I would take
issue with in your framing.
Thank, you, it is now this is mejust going through that twice,
that 10 minute video twice, andwithout looking at all your
questions how you made sense ofthem.
But is there's, in my view butthis is also the framing in
which I think about life andworking with clients and so on
(07:53):
is the idea that?
Well, a couple of ideas.
One is the question of coercion.
There are a lot of reasons thatwomen have unwanted sex and
coercion is just one of them.
Right, and for me the questionis like how much psychological
control does the partner have?
Because if he has high levelsof psychological control over
(08:17):
the woman, I would imagine thePTSD element of it would be much
higher.
That is to say, the PTSDelement of it would be much
higher.
That is to say, they're goingto have a much more high anxiety
, high aversion, high stressresponse to the sexual
(08:37):
experience because they reallydo.
It's like borderline abusive.
They don't feel like I meanthere's no physical trauma as
you're saying, there's nophysical trauma, as you're
saying, there's no violencesexually, but because they see
him as having psychologicalcontrol over her sense of worth,
over her financially.
I think that's a big variablein understanding coercion,
(08:58):
because a husband pouting I'mnot saying that's pleasant and
that it doesn't impact a woman'schoices.
That's still different thancoercion, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
And in terms of its impact.
So men and women do lots ofmanipulative things in intimacy
of marriage.
Right I would be interested inis saying yes to unwanted sex
(09:28):
and how much sex you actuallyhave.
If you are saying yes andyou're having a lot of sex,
that's about coercion.
If you're not having a lot ofsex, it means the low desire
woman is winning, that is to sayshe, she's not without agency.
Now I don't mean to say thatshe likes the sex she's having,
or this isn't a hundred percentunpleasant.
(09:51):
I mean a hundred percentunpleasant for her.
That, but that's different thanhaving a traumatic effect in my
view, in my view, because therereally is the question of how
much agency psychologically doesshe have?
Yeah, yeah.
And I would even say in myclinical Go ahead, you want to?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Oh, I was going to give you a little bit of answers
for that.
So we used we used a postrefusal coercion scale.
That's putting verbal andemotional coercion on a scale
with examples of how what theirpartner did after they said no
so that was one scale we didmeasure to look yeah, yeah.
(10:32):
And then another scale wastrying to figure out, um, your
idea of why they say yes.
So there's a scale.
That's uh reasons for theperson moving towards versus
moving away.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And we did find, with how frequently they're having
sex, that there were both highlevels of these PTSD or
psychological, emotional, sexualresponses, for those who were
frequent and also infrequent.
It was interesting to see thescatter plot.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, so I have.
I mean again, this is withoutme really looking at the data in
a cold way to really understandbut the questions that were
coming up for me was is that agood PTSD response?
If it's just sexual avoidance,that's not, is that meaning that
would be a questionablevariable for me, because you
don't have to have PTSD to notlike the sex you're having right
(11:26):
and to avoid it right.
So I mean.
So I would care about that.
There's also, in my view, in myexperience of working with
women because we're not idiotsand we look for control in our
lives right that a lot of womenwill have it to like get him to
get a week of freedom you knowwhat I mean.
So they'll have the sex right,but they do it resentfully they
(11:51):
do it while feeling like theydon't have a choice, even though
they do okay, like that is tosay, they're kind of
participating in the idea thatthey don't have choices when
they really do and and and Idon't mean to say that they're
how to say it, I don't know.
Let me see if I can explainthis better.
Um, they're kind of actuallyparticipating in the sense of
(12:17):
victimhood, through that choice.
And so then they feel like, likeI'm the good one, I do this.
Yeah, I'm the, I'm the kind ofself righteous martyr.
That's what I'm trying to getat.
And so, yeah, they're doing it,but it's, it gives them more
psychological control in themarriage.
Now I mean, I really work withthe spectrum of women.
(12:38):
There are women who are genuine.
I had a client where she,genuinely her husband, was so
like he saw her as the brokenone sexually.
He would give her such a hardtime about not wanting to have
it.
He would know that she didn'twant to have it.
He would have it with heranyway the whole time and he's
like I need to feel close to her.
I'm like, okay, you know shedoesn't want it, you know, and
(12:59):
you're saying this makes youfeel close to her.
You're like you're, you'rewhacked, like this is crazy,
right.
So there's that, and she wouldalways want to make it her
problem because in a way, thatwas less scary for her than
standing up to this bully.
Okay, so that's one end of thisand it's like pretty normal.
I mean, they're no longerMormon, but like how to say it?
(13:22):
Like this, this is not anunusual presentation for me,
right?
The woman who's managing thesuperior, critical husband who
hates sex for good reasonbecause it's just managing a
child.
But then I worked with womenwho, like they, married into a
sexual partnership.
They knew it was a sexualpartnership.
I don't mean to say thatobligates them, they can still
(13:44):
say no, but they treat it likethey're the righteous one and
he's the imposition with hisneeds, and so they, they have
the psychological control and hehas all this sexual anxiety.
He's also learned in his Mormonculture and she has him by the
balls in a sense, through kindof shaming that he has this
desire, right?
So she's saying yes, but sheuses it to accrue her own sense
(14:10):
that she's owed in the marriage.
So do you see what I'm sayingLike.
I don't see it as somebody whosays yes is participating in
their own trauma, is beingcoerced.
It's like and I know you're notmaking it that simple- I just
think it's a lot more complexright and what I was seeing in
the model and I'm again.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I'm just saying that without knowing all the details
of what's in your no, Iappreciate it, because I I feel
like I'm in the learner position, kind of of feeling like, oh, I
found this thing, what'severybody think?
Instead of taking the positionof I found this thing and this
is what it is.
I'm just like okay, are wehaving this conversation and if
there's some long-term outcomesand wanting to know what's
(14:50):
everybody think this is from,and you're saying it's more
complex, we can't look at itthat simply.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yes and and you're saying it's more complex we
can't look at it that simply yes, and what you're pointing to is
real.
I mean like that is to say yes.
It's true that there are womenwho I've worked with, lots of
these women who have learnedthat they shouldn't say no, that
if they do, their husband isgoing to.
You know, I have lots of womenwhose mother said to them on
their the night before theirwedding don't ever say no to
them, because oh yeah yeah,there's 100, you know so they're
.
(15:16):
They go immediately into lowdesire because it turns from I
want to be close to you, this isexciting into I have a job to
do, and it kills the wholeecology of desire and then it
gets more and more miserable andthey feel more and more without
a self in that dynamic and theyabsolutely hate it.
(15:37):
And their husband's unhappy toobecause he never feels desired.
And you know, and sometimes mentry to handle that by having
more of that bad sex and it justdoesn't go well.
So it is real and it certainly.
You know the hypo.
I've never liked the hypoactivedesire diagnosis because Me
either, I'm not a fan, it's justlike you know.
(15:58):
Yeah, it's a really nice ideathat.
Look, there probably are womenout there who have a more
biological, not aversion to sex,right, or just something that's
more innate in them.
Either they're high anxiety orthey have a low sexual response.
But the thing is it's socontextual, most sexual desire
and a lot of women have beentaught and are participating in
(16:23):
meanings that make sexundesirable for women, and so so
much of my work is abouthelping women actually look at
the meanings and what would besex worth wanting and how could
they create something moredesirable in their lives where
they get to be a self, that thesexual relationship doesn't
reflect just their husband'ssexual interests but theirs as
(16:44):
well.
And so, anyhow, I think that Ioften am saying to women.
Low sexual desire is often verygood judgment.
It's like you know this isabout not desirable is often
very good judgment.
It's like you know this isabout it's not desirable.
Wanting like let's look atwhat's happening, um, because
this belongs to you also, so, um, so I would just be careful
(17:07):
with the causal element.
You know, like calling it asyndrome, sometimes I feel like
the wrong people take thosediagnoses and run with them.
And the ones who they actuallyfit are less likely to take them
.
You know what I'm saying.
Like that is you know, like, ohyeah, I'm married to a
narcissist and in fact they'rethe narcissist you know.
So I mean it's just it's we likethose ideas that kind of make
(17:30):
us feel like victims often andpowerless.
And I'm about helping women andmen.
But you know, women inparticular claim, get a hold of
the meanings, to claim whatactually will forge the life
they want.
Because those are the women whodo well in sex, those are the
women who do well in life.
Right, and going to that otherquestion of like, so the women,
(17:55):
what was the second question?
I'm like what does it?
I want to make sure I've hitall the ideas there.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You're okay.
The second question is aboutaspects of LDS community that
might keep this going, thatmight promote this.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, just to the degree I mean it's improving in
the LDS community, but just thewhole idea of like promising in
the temple.
It's changed.
But you're going to you deferto your husband as he defers to
God.
It's just setting up ahierarchy, a dependence.
You're supposed to not have acareer.
I mean, this is so many of myclientele.
You are supposed to basicallyhitch your cart to his horse,
(18:32):
and so it makes it.
And so when we turn women intocaretakers of men's sexuality,
(19:01):
you are absolutely working, inthe meaning that is, 100%
against sexual desire for women.
Women want the opposite.
If anything, they want to betaken care of.
Women who like sex.
They are surrendering intopleasure.
They are not.
The nurturing muscle that'ssaved for children is not
operating in a sexualrelationship at all in good sex
(19:22):
for women.
So, um, so we, we educate menand women exactly into the
meaning frame that kills desireforever more.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
That's interesting.
That's kind of one of myquestions is that we're playing
with.
Is this a U S thing?
Is this a religious thing?
Is this a gendered thing?
And I hear you saying this is adynamic thing of hierarchy, yes
, which removes choice andleaves the woman feeling
choiceless, even though that'salmost a fantasy.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I mean the more and more that we have laws that
allow women to own property, tovote, to drive.
Okay, like you know, women havehad more and more structural
equality, which is a big deal,because when you didn't have it,
when you couldn't divorce him,I mean it doesn't even matter
how autonomous you were in yourhead, you were economically
(20:11):
dependent.
Now we have created a realityin which we're becoming more and
more structurally equal.
We can provide for ourselves,we don't have to be married.
But there is a psychologicallag, and I think it's true
inside the church and outside,and probably more pronounced in
Christian religions andfundamentalist religions,
(20:32):
because they often teach anarrow view of femininity and
masculinity, which is about menas head of the house, women as
support, and very narrow viewsof that are much more
utilitarian in their focus andnot about equality and
collaboration and mutuality andso on.
So I do see it outside.
(20:54):
I mean like even even in myview, the sexual revolution and
so on, it's still not gone greatfor women.
Okay, like women are stilltrying to get.
One of the challenges isbiological.
I think women are much moreattuned to the desires and
feelings of other people thanmen are as a group in the
reverse.
That's probably good forkeeping babies alive.
Women are good at mapping whatother people want and feel, but
(21:18):
then adolescent girls are tryingto prove themselves through
being sexual and often havingunwanted sexual encounters in
high school that look likefreedom but are not about their
desire.
They're not referencing theirdesires, their desires.
They're trying to prove thatthey're sexually free and
liberated and cool and nottaking their own desires
(21:45):
seriously, which is a problem,you know, and so I don't know
yet.
I think we're doing better as aculture as a whole, but I think
women taking their own desiresseriously is is a challenge, and
one that's really essential togood sex.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Anything else on thoughts about how modernism
specifically may hurt that?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Let me think you know just all the object lessons.
I mean I think these things arehappening much less now but
these sort of the desirabilityelements and that you'll lose
your desirability through beingsexual.
In my own dissertation researchthere were women who were
masking how much desire andarousal they had from their
husband because they were afraidthat that would make them seem
(22:28):
less virtuous, less spiritual.
Yeah, I mean, I think thepornography challenge too is
that there's just women who feellike they're in this duality of
like.
I don't want to have sex withyou because you are engaging
sexual energy elsewhere and Iresent that and I resent your
(22:49):
dishonesty or whatever, but thenI feel like I should because
you have these sexual needs andif I don't take care of them
then you will.
I think you had a quote in asimilar vein to that.
So I think that those are allelements that I see as
problematic.
I think to go to the nextquestion, like who are the women
(23:12):
that we can learn from?
I think the women who were theminority in my dissertation
research, but they were still.
They were actually fine withthe idea of different family
roles, like they didn't really.
They were fine with thinking oftheir husband as the head of
the home in a sense, but when itcame down to how they actually
(23:34):
made decisions, they werecollaborative.
They made decisions together.
They worked together.
There was no inequality.
There was no doing what yourhusband thought.
They also had economic capacity,whether or not they were
working full-time, they could beif they wanted to be.
(23:54):
So they were not dependenteconomically.
They had choices.
So they were choosing themarriage and they took their
desires seriously before theygot married and while they're in
marriage, both sexually andjust on every front.
So they were their own force tobe reckoned with in the best
sense.
They were a self and they chosea partner, not because they
(24:16):
needed a man, and these womenoften were virginal before
marriage.
They were conservative in theirdecisions, but it wasn't to earn
a future man's approval.
They were like no, because Icare about sex being in a
commitment context.
For me it was like in line withtheir own desires and so they
actually saw the culture assupporting ultimately what they
(24:39):
wanted.
So again, it wasn't in liketrying to defer so that they're
good enough and that people saythat they're good.
It was more like this fits withwhat I want.
And so they were prettyconservative at times and
disappointed the men.
They were dating and things,but they were like unapologetic
and that's really the way Iwould describe these women is.
They didn't apologize for theirsexuality, for their desires in
(25:03):
general and their specificdesire and their sexual desires
specifically.
They really had men thatrespect they married men that
respected them and cared abouttheir desires, and so they saw
and they also saw.
They saw men and women as justfundamentally equal.
They saw the body and sexualityas good, like they had no issue
(25:23):
with that.
They saw the doctrine of thebody as validating of sex.
They saw the law of chastity notas a way to earn your value,
but more like a way of elevatingthe meaning of sex in a way
that they thought was good forthem, like they were, like I
feel some of the women would say, like I feel sorry for women
that are sort of in this postthey didn't use this language
but like the post-sexualrevolution culture where men
(25:45):
don't owe you anything and likewomen are out there just like
they're, like I don't want that,I want a man that's committed.
So they saw the culture as sortof supporting their interests.
They they separated sexism fromsexual conservatism and a lot
of times we push those twotogether, like you know to be,
(26:06):
for women to be free they shouldbe as free to have uncommitted
sex, as men are.
You know that kind of idea,that's sort of a right cultural
idea, and I think that theyrejected that idea.
They were, like you know, womenand I think the research shows
us as women as a whole prefermore commitment because it's
(26:29):
more biologically risky to besexual and so, psychologically
speaking, women tend to prefer acommitted partner, that's,
that's even sexual fantasies areoften around a man who actually
values the woman as a wholeperson and so so, anyway, so
they were.
They were clear that what theywanted in the sexual realm
(26:51):
counted and they could ask mento meet it.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I think in the research.
Right, we've got to look atboth, not just this 53% that had
negative outcomes, but thenthat 47 that was like there
weren't negative outcomes.
And I hear you saying like thesolution or the difference is
that degree of internalauthority or internal legitimacy
, exactly the degree betweenyour decision and your because I
was going through it and I wastalking to my husband.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I'm like I bet you've had unwanted sex sometimes.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Just like I have.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
That is you know it's like I'm not really that, but
yeah, okay, I'll rally like,okay, yeah, and.
But if you can back up yourchoice, cause I think a lot of
times people make choices butthen they resent their partner
for their choice, right, andthat's different Like somebody
who's going to make it somiserable, okay, your sense of
choices is dissipating, okay,but like if a lot of times we
(27:44):
were like, oh yeah, somebodyasked us to do something, we say
yes and then we resent themEven though we said yes.
I mean, like out of the sexualrealm people can do this kind of
thing.
So, yeah, like I think, ifsomebody makes a choice and they
can back up their choices, like, yeah, I can do that.
You know, I don't think it'sgoing to have a negative because
you feel, ultimately, it wasn'tmy idea.
If it was up to me entirely,I'd say no, but like, since I
(28:06):
love my partner we're apartnership Sometimes we do
things that aren't our firstidea for each other, but I can
back it up, I can choose it, Ican say yes to it sincerely.
Other, but I can back it up, Ican choose it, I can say yes to
it sincerely.
I think that's not going tohave negative impacts.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's a protective factor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What would you do with yourlens?
You've got this couple on yourcouch and you see this dynamic.
I mean this kind of explainsyour whole shtick.
Yeah, what you know, you, you,you.
You've done a fantastic job ofmaking it clear in your career
(28:46):
and your work of the theoreticalorientation.
You have right, some.
You're really clear on yourlens and in all of your work
you're very clear.
So got this couple on yourcouch.
You've might have done this,had these, this couple, on your
couch every day for the last 20years, I don't know, but you've
(29:06):
got.
You've got this couple on yourcouch with your lens.
How are you going to work withthis couple who's experiencing
this dynamic?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, we're like the specific one where she's saying
yes because she feels so coerced.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, and she's got high anxiety, high avoidance.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, and she's got high anxiety, high avoidance, a
product of purity culture, andhe's, he's ready to kind of
diagnose her as beingfundamentally flawed and have
you liked my office Like isthere a?
yeah, exactly yeah.
And so he's basically likesaying you need to solve your
(30:06):
issues so that we're okay.
And the problem, of course, isnot only is he doing this in the
sexual realm, he's doing thisin every realm, which is I know
how things are, and hepatronizes his wife, and usually
then this woman if this hasbeen a marriage that's lasted a
few years is on some levelcomplicit.
(30:27):
I don't mean to say that she'slike evil or something, but
she's like complicit in adynamic where she's trying to
make him be okay with her and sohe can readily put pressure on
her and she will tend to yieldto keep him happy with her, to
prove she's trying to prove,she's enough to prove whatever.
And so my first goal in thatwould be to dismantle his
(30:52):
illusion about his wife andhimself like who's actually got
the problem, because she's soready to attach to the idea that
she's got a problem, ratherthan her dislike of sex makes
perfect sense with this guy, andso I'm challenging that.
(31:14):
You know he is asking for a kindof sexual experience that would
make any smart woman recoil,and I you know I try to say it
as nicely as I can, but I'mtrying to show him how
undesirable the sex on offer is,because this is about trying to
earn a self, prove a self,manage him like another child in
(31:35):
her life, and that that iscompletely the opposite of
anything close to desire.
Now, the other thing is that alot of men in this sort of
archetype here don't.
Now, the other thing is that alot of men in this archetype
here don't actually want a wifethat is full of desire and has
her own ideas and thoughts andpassions, and they're scary
those women for a weak man likethis.
(31:56):
They want the woman to slideunderneath them.
They want that kind of control.
I want your sexuality to thriveunder my control, and that
doesn't work.
And so it's just helping bothof them see what's actually
happening and why it makes sensethat she doesn't like it.
(32:17):
Because I'll say very clearlylike women well, this is true
for men too but like, sexualdesire thrives in freedom, in
the sense of freedom.
And if you don't feel like youare free whether that's real or
imagined, that is, whether ornot you have a coercive person
or you just can't tolerate beinga disappointment, like some
people need so much to be neededthat, even though they're
(32:40):
married to a nice guy, like theymake themselves say yes because
they're so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Disappointing yeah Right that they're saying yes,
the fear of disappointment is sohigh.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, yeah exactly, are not good for them and not
good for their partner, and soum so anyway, so this idea of
freedom and that this is not amarriage in which freedom is yet
happening, um and you know,then I would be about her
working.
I'd be helping her to look ather need and and fear of not
(33:14):
pleasing her, kind of revolvingher sense of self around his
approval, which is a, is a toughgo because he operates in
disapproval like as a way to getcontrol, so it's approval is
not something that's on offerreally.
And so helping her to see umthe situation better and to you
(33:39):
know, if, if this is a marriageshe really wants and she wants
sex that she would also enjoy,then it's about him stepping
down from his superiority,looking at his own anxieties
about sex, which are often a lotof anxieties also in my
(34:01):
clientele.
But when they can frame it onthe lower desire partner, they
don't have to look at their ownanxieties right, they've already
decided.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
The problem isn't here.
Yeah, it's not me.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, and if you exactly, and if you want me
sexually, then I don't have toworry about whether or not my
sexuality is legit or not, andso it's just an easy target.
Um, and being high desiredoesn't mean you don't have
sexual anxieties, just it justmeans you're higher, it just
means you have a lot oftestosterone.
So it doesn't necessarily haveanything to do with how
(34:30):
accepting you are of yourself oryour sexuality, so anyway.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
but then it's about You're right, that is always
framed that way that the higherdesire partner has less hangups.
But that's absolutely not true.
100% not true in my experienceTons of hangups tons of
anxieties and insecurities andstill desire.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Because I think of, of sexual integration, which is
like a, a variable that I'mwriting about, which is is this
ability to really be at peacewith yourself as a sexual being,
so your capacity to be sexuallyintimate, literally like show
up, share your sexuality, careabout your impact on a partner,
care about them.
You know that's about sexualmaturity.
(35:10):
High desire is just.
I want to have an orgasm.
And that's not necessarilyanything to do with maturation
and ability to love anybody, orcomfort, even with sexuality,
because a lot of people can't beintimate with it.
They have to have their sexualexperience be in non-intimate
situations.
So I would you know.
(35:31):
And then like figuring out,like how she can show up more in
the marriage and her ability tosay no, like she can't say yes
if she can't say no, she can'tdisappoint, she can't hold her
own.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
If she can't get a hold of what she actually wants,
then this is not a marriagethat's going to be capable of
collaboration and intimacy.
That's a much different takeright than someone.
A woman made a quote that theirtherapist had told them.
You know, sex is like thedishes it's just got to get done
.
Yeah, that's a terribleterrible idea.
(36:02):
Yeah, not where you're going tostart or go with this.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
No, oh gosh, never.
Yeah, that's a terrible,terrible idea.
Yeah, not where you're going tostart or go with this.
Oh gosh, never, never, never.
And you know, yeah, I meanthere's a lot to say about all
that, but no, I would as soon asyou put it into duty, you've
killed it.
Ever being about passion, andmost people show up talking
about frequency with me, butwhat they're really trying to
get at is passion.
They're to get at.
I want to feel desired againthat's helpful.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
So that's you know what you do if this couple
landed on your couch.
The next question is what wouldyou do?
It might be culturally for theyou know, uh uh, the lds folks.
It may just be outside of thatdynamic even.
But if, if you were in chargeof making a prevention plan,
(36:48):
what do you see needs to?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
happen this is in the book I'm working on really is
is, first of all, with kids.
If you're talking to kids, youwant to talk about sexual
integration, not sexualrepression, nor sexual
indulgence either.
I I think both are bad.
It's like either anorexia orcompulsive eating Neither one.
(37:11):
Are you actually at peace withyourself?
What integration is is beingable to accept your sexual
nature as a human being.
And then how do I make choicesthat accrue to my wellbeing and
the wellbeing of myrelationships?
How do I use my sexuality tocreate goodness in my life and
in my, you know, most importantrelationships, so on?
So it's, it's more of a.
(37:33):
I have this capacity.
That's legitimate, but it needsa kind of cultivation to be
something capable of reallybringing happiness into my life.
And so it's so much in religiousculture is fear of like.
It's kind of almost like Satanis in our sexuality and that
(37:56):
sensual pleasure is not legitfor the religious person, and
that just sets us up into aconstant tug of war internally.
And a lot of men think the tugof war is going to be solved
when they get married and thentheir partner is not interested
because she also has anxietiesabout the sexual part of her,
and then he starts talking abouthis needs, and then she's
(38:19):
trying to fulfill his needs, butnobody's needs are getting met,
nobody's happy, and so it'slike breaking the whole framing
of needs and instead about howdo we learn to create something
mutual through our sexuality,how do we learn to love and care
about each other and to shareour erotic nature with one
(38:42):
another in a way that createsbeauty and happiness for two
people?
So like what?
That's?
Speaker 1 (38:51):
a collaborative process, and you have to be two
people that take yourselfseriously to cultivate something
mutual I'm hearing you say letme see if I'm getting this
you're hearing and I hadn'tnecessarily thought of it in
this term that mutuality hingeson both people knowing who they
are clearly.
Yeah, and in religioushouseholds we're really skipping
(39:14):
.
We're not encouraging people toknow themselves sexually.
We're really bypassing thatfirst step that you're saying.
Mutuality hangs on bothpeople's ability to see
themselves clearly and know whothey are and what they want.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
And what I would also say and I'm writing about this
a lot is that to the degree that, depending on the household
because in religious householdsthere's quite a wide variation
in this but to the degree thatyou are taught to reference
outside of yourself versusinternally.
So how much is it about do whatauthority figures say versus
(39:52):
okay, here are the rules.
And how do you feel about this?
What is your response to this?
So you're learning an internalcompass to be able to know
yourself sexually, but alsoemotionally and otherwise you
have to cultivate a stronginternal compass.
That's really the only wayyou're capable of intimacy,
because I think up until thatpoint it's more in terms of duty
(40:12):
and roles and maybe cooperationeven like I'll scratch your
back if you scratch mine but notreally collaborative or
intimate.
And so you have to learn toknow who you are, and just a lot
of people don't.
They are so used to deferringto what others say they should
do or should believe or shouldthink that they haven't really
(40:36):
cultivated an internal referencepoint.
That's really quite necessaryto have the best kind of
intimate relationship.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Quite necessary to have the best kind of intimate
relationship.
Why, and you said, why do younot see this as a desire
disorder?
They're on your couch.
She's avoidant, anxious,developing some aversion.
Why is this not a desiredisorder as outlined in like?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
the clinical DSM, because I would just say it's
not a disorder, it's acompletely congruent response,
it's orderly.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, wow, that was a really, really acute way of
saying that.
Yeah, because it's not adisorder.
This is rational, this makessense.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yes, it's sensical because, again, desire and
freedom go together.
That's why a woman can be lowdesire, low desire, low desire
in a marriage where she feelspressured and she's got it.
And then she meets somehandsome guy at the gym and all
of a sudden she has a ton ofdesire.
Because it's connected tofreedom.
And I would argue monogamy isarguably tough on the sense of
freedom, but the more you haveforged a self, the more you have
(41:50):
freedom, even within a choiceof monogamy.
So that is because you canbelong to yourself and your
thoughts and your desires, andyou can be honest and authentic
when we need people's approvaltoo much or we need them to do
what makes us feel good too much, then we start feeling trapped
by the marriage, and so freedomis.
(42:16):
Lots of women don't feel that intheir lives.
You know, men have their ownversions of this, even like, you
know, p, e and E, d and so on.
It's like about anxiety andabout the invalidation they are
confronting.
In sex, Like for men, it's.
It's brutal to feel like I aman intrusion, she does not want
me here.
I have no other legitimateoutlet Like, so they also have
(42:37):
their own.
I really don't want to frame itas just like women are being
acted upon because men havetheir own deep anxieties about
this and it's painful anddifficult and I don't want to be
an intrusion on her, but I alsofeel so alone and unwanted and
it's all very confusing.
How do I actually createsomething better?
(43:00):
And so a lot of people areundereducated, I mean, I think.
And so again, just going backto the previous question, the
more that we can create likewhat is it we're actually aiming
for and what is it and not, youknow, shaming and a lot of fear
, but more desire-based likewhat am I actually striving to
create in my embodiment as asexual being?
(43:22):
That's going to have muchbetter outcomes for us than
fear-based.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, we're kind of aligned.
Well, we're fairly aligned onthat, because in the back of my
head I was thinking a similarthing of this might be things
going right, not things goingwrong.
This is her internal wisdom,saying not like this, I don't
want it like this.
You know, yeah, and and thatthat anxiety and that, uh, avoid
.
You know, the avoidance isprobably a coping mechanism for
(43:50):
the anxiety, but the anxietybeing, yeah, not something going
wrong, but something goingright, being like right, wake up
.
This is not working yeah, youdon't want it like this yeah,
the body's signaling.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
This is not working for me and you know, I think,
where some women get stuck orlow desire people get stuck, is
kind of like what would work forme, like what would I want I
don't mean to say anybody has towant sex or has to create a
sexual relationship againeverybody gets to choose what
they want to do in their lifeand create in their life, but
too often it's just like avoid,avoid, rather than what is it
(44:22):
that I would actually find liketo be a good part of my life or
what I would like more of?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, yeah.
That brings us to the last one,and I'm just interested you've
you've given a lot of thoughts.
Are there additional ones whereyou You've given a lot of
thoughts?
Are there additional ones thatare just op-ed, commentary,
complimentary or not?
As we're looking through thisand we're sitting, what is this
thing that is showing up inrelationships?
Speaker 2 (45:01):
I mean, I think the thing that stands out as
important in the work you'redoing is just how important it
is to not say yes to sex youdon't want.
My only caution would be not toyou but to anybody who takes
that idea is that I've said thata lot.
And then I have women who arelike, well, I don't want it, so
you know, I'm just not going tosay yes to it.
And again, fair, they really doget to decide, but not like how
to say it.
But on the other hand, I am ina partnership and so, yeah, I
(45:25):
shouldn't say yes to somethingthat is not pleasurable and I
don't want because it's not, butlike, how am I going to handle
the fact that I'm married to aman that wants a sexual
relationship with me?
And so what is?
What is my response to that?
If I am making the response ofI don't want a sexual
relationship full stop, then Ishould be honest about it and
(45:47):
claim it and then let him figureout what he's going to do with
that.
But if I don't, because I Ifind a lot of women I keep
saying women but just like lowerdesire people, you know where
they they can be low desirebecause their higher desire
partner is always revolvingaround them and so they know
that they're secure where.
When the higher desire personsays, you know what I'm going to
(46:10):
take no for an answer, I'mgoing to stop trying to make
this something you don't want itto be, then they get very
activated, like wait a minute,wait a minute.
Like I don't want you to giveup, but you know they're not
actually taking responsibilityfor the fact that I want this to
be sexually exclusive, I wantthis to be.
That's fine and good that youdon't want the sex you've been
(46:32):
having.
But then there's this spacelike, okay, what is the sex I
would want?
What is it that I want to sayyes to?
So it's not just in thisreaction to outside forces.
That's the only way you'regoing to create something
peaceful.
So I yeah.
So I think it's importantbecause it has such negative
impact but also helping women to, or low desire people to get to
(46:57):
what is what would yes looklike?
Or thinking about, what is itthat's happening that makes me
not want this, and what impactwill saying yes have on it and
what impact will saying no haveon it and what can I really
stand behind?
And so helping people takedeeper responsibility for their
choices is always the way out.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean, I've seen that too,Someone taking the one up
position of I don't ever wantsex, with the attitude of and
you should be cool with that,instead of realizing like I
don't think I ever want to havesex again.
That might not be cool with you.
What would we do?
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Right, yeah, right right.
Or knowing that he gets to makechoices too he gets to make
choices too.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, and I appreciate thecaution of, uh, not taking too
simplistic of a view to see itas a complex dynamic, and I
almost heard you saying in eachof the questions when it gets
too simplistic, people can usethat to manipulate it, yeah.
(48:04):
When we go too simplistic, wejust manipulate each other and
take the I'm right position.
But when we're looking at it asa complex dynamic, there's
shared responsibility.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Right, and who am I in this and who am I in my life?
And yeah, I always find that'sthe thing that helps people get
healthier is just taking ahundred percent responsibility
for themselves and their choices, and no responsibility for
other people's choices.
What I mean is I have to figureout if I'm going to be in a
(48:36):
sexual relationship and if I am,how and in what form, and my
spouse gets to make their ownchoices about that, right, so
it's um it.
It's just when we're lessmature in our development, we
get very, we co-construct ourpowerlessness in a way that
keeps relationships stuck.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I've got an additional question.
I know we're right up againstthe clock and I didn't prepare
you, but how often do you seepeople do this to take the
responsibility to turn it aroundand to create a mutually
satisfying sexual experience?
I believe it's possible and I'mwondering I mean, it's so
subjective, It's- very possible.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
It's very possible.
I mean, it depends a lot.
I see it happen quite a bitactually, but I think it depends
on a few things.
One is how unhealthy is thecouple?
So some people are just kind oftrapped in a meaning and then
they don't even work with me.
They listen to podcasts, theytake the courses and they're
like they can see what they'vebeen doing and they can start
(49:42):
not doing it anymore, and so itjust starts getting better and
they start respecting each othermore and desiring each other
more and they just are given anew way of understanding what's
happening and a new form ofpartnership is emerges and a new
form of partnership emerges.
(50:04):
I think there's people that aremuch more trapped in.
You know, like talking aboutthe kind of archetypal couple
where he's very coercive anddemanding and she's compliant.
You know they both came from.
I have a couple in mind.
They both came from homes wherethe father was, you know, on
his side, was demanding and themother just did whatever.
And she came from a home whereher mother did whatever her
father did, even though theywere very toxic relationships.
So they're very accustomed tothis way of being and so it's a
(50:28):
much harder lift.
I'm not saying people can't makeprogress, but it requires if
it's going to really change.
It requires both people thatare willing to look honestly at
themselves and deal withthemselves and really change
what they're doing to createsomething better, freer, happier
.
And you don't have to go fromzero to a hundred for the
(50:50):
marriage, even when people arelike in a really tough spot and
they just start doing better.
And they start, you know, likeyou don't come in with the
criticism and you watch yourselfand you like settle down, and
she doesn't just run into, likecomply, but she kind of settles
down.
You know things can get better.
Um, even if they're not as goodas maybe they might want, they
still are operating in amarriage that feels freer, um,
(51:14):
so, but for me, my experiencewith people is seeing themselves
honestly is their best chance.
Now people can take what.
I say and be like, no, I'm notgoing to deal with that and I'm
going to disagree with her andwhatever.
But when people will see it andsay, okay, I see how I'm part
of the problem and they dealwith their half, they get
(51:34):
clearer inside and they increasethe chance that something
better in the marriage willhappen.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
There's plenty of people who are able or willing
to do that part.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yeah, that's right.
I appreciate your intelligenceand your experience and your
lens and your time and themountains you're moving in your
own world and your own circle ofinfluence has been really I'm
not trying to blow smoke, Ireally hope you see the good you
(52:06):
do for people, even if it isjust a podcast or a course.
I've seen the LDS world almostshifting on its access a degree
or two from your influence and Ithink we're all grateful for it
.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
Yeah, thank you I really appreciate it.
Well, have a good day.
Well, thank you, tammy, you too, and and good luck with
everything you're doing.
And so, yeah, thank you Allright, take care Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Thank you.
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