June 5, 2025 • 54 mins
Research on consenting to unwanted sex reveals surprising trauma symptoms and resentment even without coercion, creating an internal "accountability conflict with yourself" when betraying your own boundaries.
• Shadeen Francis explains resentment as information revealing unmet needs or crossed boundaries.
Shadeen Francis is a licensed marriage and family psychotherapist and a board-certified sex therapist. Her expertise spans the domains of mental health, emotional intelligence, and the intersection of sexual wellness and social justice. A sought-after voice in her field, Shadeen has been featured on major networks including ABC, NBC, and CBS, and has been the subject matter expert for prominent brands such as Essence, Bumble, Tinder, and Teen Vogue. Shadeen's work extends beyond the therapy room, influencing nationally implemented curricula, global media strategies, and public health policies. Known for her signature brand of warmth and humour, Shadeen’s work is inspired by her commitment to helping people live lives full of peace and pleasure. You can find her at www.shadeenfrancis.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, sex Therapy 101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really going
to be offering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me, and one ofthose is a book for the public
(00:30):
about my research aboutregarding long-term outcomes of
consenting to unwanted sex, orduty sex as we sometimes call it
, and in doing that, adding tomy own research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because these were
all recorded over the course ofa year and I wanted to talk to
(00:53):
experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
(01:17):
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
Now I'll give you a little bitof a bio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
(01:38):
This interview is with ShadeenFrancis, who's a licensed
marriage and familypsychotherapist.
She's a board certified sextherapist.
Her expertise spans the domainsof mental health, emotional
intelligence and theintersection of sexual wellness
and social justice.
She's a sought-after voice inher field.
I can attest to that.
I've really enjoyed beingtaught and led by her.
(02:00):
She's been featured in majornetworks, including ABC, nbc,
cbs, and has been the subjectmatter expert for prominent
brands.
Her work extends beyond thetherapy room.
She's influencing nationallyimplemented curriculum, global
media strategies and publichealth policies.
She's known for her signaturebrand of warmth and humor.
(02:22):
Shadeen's work is inspired byher commitment to helping people
live lives full of peace andpleasure.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation.
Okay, so it was really generousof you in the first place to
spend 10 of your minutes to lookat this research.
This girl did right, so I'mworking on getting it ready to
(02:42):
publish with Lisa Diamond.
We've been working on that.
She was on my committee, sothank you for just spending that
10 minutes looking at what wefound, which is okay.
There's this pattern and womenwho consent the language we're
using right now is consent tosex they don't necessarily want.
What are those outcomes longterm?
And just shocked to find, oh mygoodness, they're scoring
(03:05):
moderate to high in on this onemeasure for trauma.
They're all saying resentment,lower desire from your lens and
your theoretical orientation,your training.
How do you interpret that likewhat's happening and why?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
from my frame of reference and scope of practice,
we could talk about this in afew ways I like to orient my
work around our emotions asmessages for what it is that we
(03:44):
are experiencing, such that theycan also give us information
about what we need.
A bias of my work is that,essentially, we experience the
world at the level of ournervous system and so I end up
saying things like everyonewants to know how to fuck.
Let me remind you how to feel,which ends up being with my
(04:06):
little tagline I like it thanky'all.
Um, and so for me, part of whatresentment is is that it exists
on our scale around anger.
Lots of people have different,lots of different ways, so this
is not the universal way to workon it.
This is a way that I approachit with folks, and so when I'm
(04:28):
talking with folks about theirexperience of resentment and its
relationship to anger, ourangry feelings are the feelings
that let us know I have a needthat is going unmet and or I
have a boundary that's beinguncrossed or being crossed.
Sorry, I like that.
Yep, yeah, um, and so when wehave these long-term boundary
(04:55):
issues or unmet needs, part ofwhat resentment is we?
We think it has a lot to dowith the other person.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It is an accountability conflict with
yourself say more, because thatwas really beautiful and I agree
yeah, and so what does that andwhat does that mean?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
right, that I am doing something that is wrong
for me, and so that brings backin the piece that you were
naming in your explainer videoaround where consent the larger
conversations around consent canfall short because they are
saying yes, but they're sayingyes to a no.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
An internal no.
Yeah, that there's thisboundary conflict with self and
the resentment I'm hearing yousay is this it's just
information, trying to teach ussomething about ourselves, which
is this isn't working for meand so, in the same way that if
we had any other recurringboundary conflict, we would
(06:00):
experience the relationalconsequences, they are
experiencing the relationalconsequences.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
They are experiencing the relational consequences and
the emotional consequences andlikely the spiritual
consequences.
I imagine lots of your folkswould also rate really high
around hopelessness.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, that was high on one of the scales when it
looked at the relationship.
There was like really highhopelessness or change in their
relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah, I imagine they would also rank really low
around things likeself-confidence or beliefs in
their own self-efficacy.
Right, and from my scope ofpractice, that has so much to do
with I am dishonoring my own,no.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I like how you're normalizing this and saying this
might not necessarily be asexual conversation, but that
this is going to show up anytime.
We're ignoring these internalboundary conflicts.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah and it does um, it's just really sticky in sex
and really pervasive in sex,because you did a beautiful job
of starting to describe thecycle um this loop that folks
get caught into.
So I I often, for very good andnormal reasons, betray my no
(07:25):
and then it complicates myability to say yes, yeah, and so
now when I say no later, itsomehow feels worse.
And when I ultimately say yes,then I dissatisfied, I avoid, I
(07:59):
acquiesce, we are dissatisfiedwe are dissatisfied.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I like how you're highlighting that it's also an
internal process, not just arelational process, because it
did show that even for the women, where there was no emotional
or verbal coercion, the guy waslike yep, yep, yep, consent,
king.
You know, they still had thishappening inside of them and I
loved how you said that, thatwhen we betray our own, no, it's
this internal conflict and fora lot of folks when I see that,
(08:32):
when I see this pattern incouples.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
A lot of the times the other partner has no idea
this is happening.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I agree, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, my partner has no idea.
This is all happening inside ofme, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
My partner has no idea.
This is all happening inside ofme.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And especially when it's women.
Women believe they're superconvincing I was like I do such
a good job hiding this and theirpartners, regardless of gender,
tend to pick up on, likethere's something up here.
But the women are also usuallylying about it and this is not
(09:07):
to blame folks for being in adifficult position.
This is just naming wherechanges could happen without the
partner's buy-in Right, thatwomen are often lying about it
when asked.
But also a lot of the times thepartners are like I didn't even
want sex yet.
Or like, yeah, maybe that couldhave gone to sex.
I just like wanted to, like beclose, right.
(09:27):
Or I, yeah, asked for sex thatthis time, but like literally no
, no pressure.
I just said, hey, do you wanna?
You know I was just rubbing herthigh and if it didn't go
anywhere, fine.
Um, whether or not that'salways literally true, you know
(09:48):
I'm not laying in bed next tothem.
They can't afford that.
Into this position where,because they do not trust their
(10:10):
themselves and or their partnerto be able to handle a no grace
graciously and gracefully, theywould rather not have the
conversation at all, right, like, if you know, like I'm going to
have to say yes, the next bestway to have a no happen is to
keep from being asked, right,and so so many folks desexualize
(10:31):
their relationships andthemselves to keep from having
to say no, because they oftendon't believe that they can, or
they don't believe their no willmatter enough for a no to
happen.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, this just made a connection for me with some
other research where one of thehighest PTSD symptoms was
avoidance.
And I'm kind of translatingwhat you're saying, as the
avoidance is a coping mechanismto avoid having to have the
discussion.
If I can just avoid thisconversation, if I can just
never get us in a situationwhere we might talk about sex or
where we might touch or wherewe might, you know, the
avoidance plays a coping rolehere.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, I mean, and it's it's kind of classic trauma
response, right, because if Ione of one of the most likely,
one of the things that is commonacross most traumas is I was in
an experience I couldn't getout of right.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So this is that I felt like I had no choice or no
collaboration.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I can't, I can't, if.
If they ask me, I have to sayyes, right.
So of course I'm going to avoidit, right?
I can't get out of that.
It is an unwinnable scenario,right?
When I get put in that position, I am trapped, I am stuck even
(11:58):
if there's no physical trap orphysical stuff, right, yeah?
yeah, yeah, right.
And and that often makes thesticking worse, because I either
don't recognize that I am stuckin like a tangible way, it just
feels like a choice, like, oh,I choose right, rather than this
sort of stuck entrenchedpattern.
(12:19):
Um.
But also, when it's a physicaldynamic, the other partner
usually is aware of theirculpability and here partners
often don't recognize the impactthat they're having.
Right, the, the pouting, whichis a normal response to being
(12:42):
disappointed right.
We do a lot of like shaming, andmaybe this is me protecting it
because I'm a powder, I'm, I'm,I.
I love a good sulk when I'mdisappointed.
Um, right, but that, like, it'skind of a normal thing to do,
even though it's not the mostmature way to handle
disappointment.
Um, it is normal to act outyour feelings and that's not
(13:06):
actually causing harm to anybody, right, we talk about it as if
it is.
But, like, if I'm disappointedand you can see that I'm
disappointed I actually haven'tharmed you.
But that's not how we relate toit Generally, mostly because
most of us cannot tolerate ourown disappointment, so it's
borderline devastating toexperience yourself as
(13:29):
disappointing to someone else.
Say that again.
Yeah most of us cannot hold ourown disappointment, and so it's
borderline disappointing, it'sborderline devastating to
experience yourself as havingdisappointed someone else.
We can handle that, yeah, we.
We have such a hard timehandling that, and I imagine
(13:50):
that that's part of what youwere getting over and over in
your interviews is thisunwillingness to be experienced
as disappointing their partnerssexually we don't want to
integrate that yeah into ourself-concept to yeah, yeah yeah,
even though they, ultimately,it becomes inevitable right this
process, the disappointment,it's the calls from coming from
(14:14):
inside the house.
So to speak you know that byavoiding, I'm disappointing them
.
If they were to find out that Iam saying that, that what they
are getting is not good consent,they are disappointed.
Were they to know that I'm notenjoying this?
They're disappointed.
Were they to know that Iexperience them as unthoughtful
(14:34):
or unaware or unkind or notcaring about my no or my
boundaries or my pleasure?
They're disappointed, and alsoyou're disappointed.
You do not want to be in thisdynamic with this person.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Many of these relationships, I'm sure, are
otherwise deeply loving and adeeply wanted relationship.
The disappointment is alreadyhere, where there is quite a bit
more, maybe blame or looking atthe couple dynamic.
But I like this piece whereyou're centering the internal
experience of the individual,which I like because it is
(15:16):
actually empowering to say, oh,if a lot of this is happening
within me, then a lot of change.
I have the power to make a lotof change within me too.
I don't have to focus my energyon changing the person in bed
with me.
I like how you're highlightingthe internal piece a lot.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Thank you, right, and this, this for me, does not
remove culpability of thepartner for whatever role they
are playing in it, and for me,I'm just aware that with only
one person's story, I don'tactually really know what's
happening on the other side, andso a bias of my work is like
there's not a whole lot that Ifeel confident in working on
(15:57):
there, because I have no ideawho your partner is and what
they're experiencing at thattime, right?
So, unless you tell me a storywhere I can hear some tangible
and what did they do?
What did they say?
How did they respond?
What did they initiate with?
What have you said to them thatyou know that they heard and
understood and received, right,that we've got such a limited
(16:20):
scope of data and I'm also anLMFT and so I am tracking these,
right?
Um, and it's cut in halfbecause you got one.
I've got right, so all I canwork with is okay.
Well, what came in and whatwent out?
Right, I have no idea aboutabout the rest of this, and much
(16:43):
of this will end up beinggendered, because I imagine that
you, in working with women whoexperienced this, I imagine that
the vast majority of the folkswere in heterosexual
relationships, so partnered withmen.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, I mean we I feel oh, I just really didn't
anticipate such a homogeneoussample Like my demographic
section of the study allowed for, like all the people to show up
and say what they wanted to,and I was going to track it and
I kind of am blaming it a littlebit on the algorithm because
(17:16):
social media was my biggest.
So I think, like people foundit, found like people who found
it, sure, and so these 1300women, the majority of them were
white, in the western part ofthe united states, middle class,
educated, christian, and I'mlike okay is this a white
christian woman problem?
(17:36):
I gotta talk to some people.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You know, yeah, I, I think the algorithm is really
great for that.
You know, showing more of thesame.
I think also, these are thetimes when you remember,
regardless of like, who you'reactually working with, like, oh
yeah, there are a lot of whitestraight people in relationships
in the Western part of thecountry who are Christ followers
(17:59):
, right, like it's somethingthat I don't know who you
generally work with, but theseare times when you're like, oh
yeah, there are a lot of thosearen't there and they also want
to be centered in theseconversations and tell their
stories.
And I appreciate you beingintentional about being curious
(18:21):
about what this looks likeelsewhere.
And I don't think that, um,this is a uniquely that slice of
the population problem.
I think we know that it is notuniquely that slice of the
population problem.
I certainly would be curiousaround the numbers, the
proportions, for other groups,like five percent for people of
(18:43):
color yeah, and I'd be socurious how this would line up
in almost like a gut punch.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I was like you know, like it's really hard to
generalize, but then I'm likeI'm just going to talk to people
.
I don't want my research to bein a vacuum.
I don't want to say I did thisresearch and applies to all
people, but I I do want to talkto experts to.
I don't want to be my ownvacuum of my own making.
And so, as an expert in theintersection of sexuality and
(19:15):
the black community, you said Idon't think this is necessarily.
You know, I think that I thinkI've seen this here too.
Yeah, are you able to do?
Can you speak to some of that?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, and so what I will also say racially, my
practice is super spread, um, Iwould say these days it's fairly
even across folks who are whitefolks, who are black folks, who
are north asian, and I think Ionly have two south asian folks
(19:49):
and one person who still haslike reservation connections,
feels really tied to theirindigenous identity.
Um, and some of those folks arealso Hispanic, sort of looped
into the fold.
What I will say about the Blackcommunity in particular,
(20:12):
because you asked about thatspecifically in this moment, I'm
curious across the board, howthe proportions of your findings
would line up.
I think you would find much ofthe same and you would probably
find some other uniquenarratives.
I'm going to say a lot ofthings that might sound
contradictory here.
(20:33):
Okay, I'm not super invested ina tidy story, but wanted to
name it up front.
Here are some thoughts.
One, black women are probablymore accustomed to doing shit
they don't want to do, just likeat baseline.
I think the experience of giving, saying yes when you mean no,
(20:57):
is a really common, not justwoman experience, but Black
experience, woman experience butblack experience when we think
of the context of whitesupremacy and how often it is
required to be deferential orpermissive or acquiescing in
(21:18):
order to get your basic needsmet.
You talked about safety, andthat is a huge safety factor
that you learn really, reallyearly in big and small ways,
right?
Big ways being like how do youinteract with police officers,
right?
Small ways being like how doyou interact with your white
coworkers?
Right, and having thoseinteractions be high risk for
(21:58):
your?
safety and needing, and so I'mcurious how much or how little
this would relate to, likesymptomatology, rather than sort
of being experienced on somelevel as the way things are and
(22:21):
say more.
Do you think that would beprotective, right, by
normalizing this level of sayingyes when I mean no, there's
less conflict around it, becauseI know why, I know why I'm
doing it and it doesn't feel outof alignment with with my
values or with my understandingsof self.
Right, I could imagine on yeah,yeah, from the biased frame,
(22:46):
from the particular biases thatI have chosen to frame this
around, um, there's less resent,there's less resentment,
there's less internal conflict,right, it's, it's not
particularly conflictual, right,but like you want to have a
peaceful day, like you engage inchit chat with your co-worker
(23:07):
that you don't particularly likebut don't want to risk
offending her, yeah, it'd beinteresting to see if it pops up
, but if there's certainelements of various cultures
that are protective or I couldimagine that for some of my
maybe both my north andsoutheast, south asian clients,
(23:31):
um, sort of a greaterpermissiveness and sometimes
pride around deference,potentially also being
protective, potentially alsobeing protective, right, yeah,
some of this stuff around youknow, there there were some
quotes that came through aroundtheir needs, um, and there can
(23:53):
be ways in which, in incollectivist cultures, in which
that feels less like a burden ofself-sacrifice and more of a
way that we move through theworld, right, a way that we
honor not just the other personbut honor ourselves.
Right, that it is dignifying tome to be deeply invested in your
(24:16):
wellbeing with a foundationalbelief that that is also what
you're doing in return.
I don't need to track that ormeasure that or even to know
that, but there is somefundamental belief that this is
what people do.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I'm hearing you say I want you to correct me if I'm
wrong or keep me centered onwhere you're going.
I'm hearing you say the degreeto which a certain culture maybe
values collectivism orindividualism could also be a
factor here, and those who valuecollectivism may, on their own,
find less resentment in meetingeach other's needs, and in a
(24:55):
more individualized, valuedculture there may be more
possibility for feelingresentment that we have to meet
each other's needs is.
That is that where you were?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
at it.
Yeah, you know, uh, phrasingthat comes to mind in this
moment in listening to youreflect what I said back to me
is that in a collectivisticculture, it may be less
appropriate to trace this alongthe lines of coercion, because
(25:28):
those cultures may notexperience folks belonging to
those cultures may notexperience this as power over
rather than power with.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Okay, writing down power over versus power with
yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, right that those cultures may not see this
as your needs are more importantthan mine, but that this is
what we need.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It shifts what is otherwise experienced as a power
imbalance and we would see theBlack community as having more
community, more value in thecollective perhaps.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I don't know how well that piece applies to Blackness
.
I'm thinking in that moment ofmy Asian clients, both North and
South Asian clients.
So I have a growing handful ofclients who are specifically
from India and Pakistan, andthen some folks from Korea and
Singapore and Vietnam.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Which are traditionally much more
collective.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Significantly much more collective when we're
talking about Black blackness,because the diaspora is so huge,
right?
Um, it's hard to say, andcollectivism has had a
complicated relationship withwithin black communities because
of the history, the uniquehistory of enslavement on this
land.
But it really disrupted a lotof clear ties to collectivism.
(27:02):
So it's sort of it's sort of inbetween right, that blackness in
and of itself is a racialidentity rather than a an ethnic
identity or even really a clearculture.
Right, right, but it doesn'tget to sit cleanly in
individualism or collectivism,because historically there would
(27:23):
have been a lot ofcollectivistic attitudes and
when you go back to other placeswhere black people are from,
they maintain a lot of that.
But blackness in the us iswarped around all of these lines
.
Yeah, right, that enslavementdid a lot of disrupting around
sense of connection and sense ofself and even sense of place
(27:47):
which is an aside from whatwe're talking about but sort of
complicates the narrative for mearound saying having a good
imagining for for how it relatesor doesn't to black communities
in in the us and I should alsoacknowledge some um
autobiography, autobiographicalpieces here to also clarify some
(28:09):
of the lenses and biases that Ihave.
Um, so some identity markers forme I am black surprise.
Um, I am queer.
I am not american.
I'm canadian, um, I've beenhere for 11 years now, which is
(28:31):
non-us citizen, um, and so thosethings I think will influence
how I talk about some of this.
I am sort of mid-tier priced inmy area.
I'm not an insurance acceptor.
So it also filters through whoI get to see and work with and
(28:51):
that I am not among our practice.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Agreed yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
So I'm not among the folks who are charging what we
could be charging in this fieldin order to remain accessible,
and still I am not accessible toa huge segment of the
population here.
And then I did say that mypractice is pretty racially and
ethnically spread, almostexactly evenly split around
(29:17):
couples and individuals, or notcouples I used to say
relationships, because I workwith a lot of non-monogamous
folk but, yeah, those thingsinfluence how this shows up for
me in my work, and so I wantedto also name and be transparent
about some of the biases thatI'm introducing here.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Thoughts on this dynamic of consenting to
unwanted sex and outcomes,protective factors, if we look
at it through the lens ofqueerness instead of the lens of
blackness.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I would be unsurprised if gay men
experienced this less you'd beunsurprised I would be
unsurprised if gay menexperienced this left on some
level, because men are moreaccustomed to saying no to men.
(30:14):
I'm thinking about the couplesthat I have worked with, and
when sex comes in as a problemand it's usually, I mean, it's
the same boring problem we seeall the time.
One person wants more sex, theother person doesn't, um, but
they're solidly just not havingsex.
They're just not having the sexI don't want it, so we're not
(30:35):
doing.
We're not doing it, and I don'tthink that's necessarily about
inherently being a betterself-advocate or about being
more boundaried, um, becausethey play out all kinds of other
games with each other um butthey are either like we have sex
because he wants it and likewhatever, um, and so there's not
(30:58):
deep conflict around it.
It's like, yeah, whatever we doit, um, or we're just not having
the sex right.
There's less of this like muddy, like we do it but I don't want
to do it and I feel bad aboutit, and then I try to not do it
next time and I don't know thatthey're going to listen to me,
and then I kind of feel, youknow, forced, but they're not
forcing me.
But they're kind of forcing mebecause they keep asking me.
(31:18):
And why do they keep asking me?
Can't they tell that I don'twant to?
more transparent, more bold,more more clear clear more clear
, right, um, more decisive, um,and yeah I I just wonder if that
(31:39):
is, if that has to do more withmen being more accustomed to
saying no to other men.
Um, I think men are less worriedabout wounding men around sex
like the.
The sex negotiations and gamesthat men play tend to be much
(31:59):
more direct.
Women tend to be very worriedabout, you know, penis ego in
ways that gay men just do notattend to right.
That's why it's very easy forgay culture, gay men culture, to
have like a bathroom hookupculture.
I met you in a bathroom and Idon't know your name.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, that's a really interesting connection.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Right, yay or nay.
Hey, you're hot, want to makeout.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, what would you think then?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
with women who have sex with women.
Women who have sex with womenwill do this game similarly, but
also different.
Similarly, but also different.
There tends to be lessdirectness compared to gay men,
but in my experience, gay womenare doing more like tracking,
(32:58):
tracking and checking of thecues, like they're very like.
The avoidance becomes on bothsides I don't want, I don't
pursue you for sex because Idon't think you want it much,
right and right, and I might,you know, whine and complain and
feel bad and sad and you mightgive in, but then I feel shitty
about it.
Right, there's like a differentlevel of like emotional stakes
on both sides.
(33:18):
Right, this is very rarely aone-person problem.
This tends to be and again,anecdotal from my clinical
experience but that they bothend up avoiding it.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, interesting, possibly eliminate some of the
scripts we have about malesexuality, maybe it being
dangerous or out of control or adeal breaker, or they'll find
it somewhere else or these youknow, kind of worries for
heterosexual women.
But what's going to stay isthat, anticipating the emotional
disappointment and tracking allof that without conversation,
(34:02):
yeah, and I actually don'texperience the first part.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
They still do all of that.
They still do all of that,worrying that you're going to
leave, worrying that you'redissatisfied, worrying that
you're thinking about your ex,worrying that you want to go.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You know, that script might be tied less to men than
I'm giving a credit, and it'stied to what sex means in a
relationship, much less thanwhat sex means to a man in a
relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Okay, Okay, we believe sex means about my value
to you.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Okay, yeah, you're saying it could be a lot less
gendered here and a lot moreabout our own insecurities, am I
?
But am I interpreting you right?
No, I I.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I think that that's right, because the clients that
I experience this with um, thosewho have kids, tend to do with
their kids also.
I say yes when I mean no, youwant something, and I bend over
backwards and I kind of I don'thate my kids, I love my kids,
(35:08):
but I hate dancing and I can'tfigure out why.
I just want to like run away,but I love them and so I should
bring them with me, but also Ijust like wish that I was just
like by myself on an island andno one could ask me for anything
.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I love that you're taking this experience outside
of the container of sexuality tosay look at all the ways women
say yes when they mean no, andthese outcomes are playing out
in parenthood and they'replaying out in relationships,
probably playing out of work.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
It's happening with your friendships, it's happening
with your family.
I've just so rarely seen thiscontained well enough for it to.
It is a sexual problem, and sothere is grounds to address it
in sex, because there issomething very specific about
what's happening here sexually,and there's something about the
level of deference and, um fearthat women in particular
(36:03):
experience sexually with otherpeople.
That really needs to beaddressed, and I think that it
is amplified by how we negotiateconflict outside of sex,
especially historically, what wewere taught around whether or
(36:27):
not your needs matter as much asanybody else's, who you can say
no to and what the consequencesof that are.
And also, when we get intorelational dynamics that teach
you this hierarchy, you tend totake it it outside.
So even if you didn't have thathistorically or you couldn't
trace it for yourselfhistorically, if you learn it in
(36:50):
a relationship that feels likethe stakes are riding on whether
or not you get what you wantfrom me, including my body, when
you want it I like thisconversation we're having.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, because it's really highlighting.
When we look at the scattergraph of our research, it was
like there was this quadrant ofpeople who clearly there was no
coercion and they had highlevels of these symptoms, and so
you're describing that quadrantwhere you know in a way that
for a minute we were like oh,this is a math issue.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Can we get a statistician in here please?
I know our numbers but.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
But this is that this is where there can be high
levels of resentment andavoidance and anxiety, very low
levels of external pressure orcoercion or emotional but deep
beliefs around in order tosatisfy this difference between
what I want and what you want,or what I think you want.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Um, I have to give myself away, right, we really
struggle.
I mean, we could oversimplifythis and call this desire
discrepancy, but, like we don'tknow what to do with, I want
something that is different thanwhat you want in the context of
sex.
We just have not figured thatout, right, which is why we have
(38:12):
the same conversation 90billion times.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, and very little change.
I don't know, Maybe that's notfair of me but Very little.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
We haven't figured out how to do that, and the
parts of me that are inherentlyradicalized um acknowledge that
we really haven't been able todo that in any forefront.
So of course we can't negotiategenitals swirling and rubbing
around all over each otherbecause we haven't figured out
how to do that in terms of theland.
(38:42):
We haven't figured out how todo that in terms of made-up shit
like borders.
We haven't figured out how todo this right in terms of
resource distribution right, wehave yeah, it's almost always
one person.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
One side wins, one person, one side loses, right I
mean you can't cut the baby inhalf.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I mean, you could, but you shouldn't.
You could, but you shouldn't.
You probably shouldn't.
You could, but you shouldn't.
You probably shouldn't, yeah,and even if you did, people
would argue about which piecethey get.
Yeah, right, we don't know howto reconcile these differences,
and we do track fairness, and sofor these folks it feels unfair
(39:23):
, unfairness.
And so for these folks it feelsunfair.
Many of them are angry withtheir partners because how could
you put me in this position?
And all the partner did waswant.
Want.
I want to come, I want to touch.
I want to be close to you.
I want to feel inside your body.
I want to experience you inpleasure.
I want to kill 35 minutes.
I want to sleep well, well, Iwant to be distracted from my
(39:43):
feelings.
I want to feel skillful,powerful, desired, interesting,
curious.
I want to feel brave.
I want to feel strong.
I want to feel small.
I want to feel submissive.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I want to dominate right, they just want um, and
maybe some of that clarifyinglanguage would actually help
this discrepancy.
Instead of the, do you wannathe?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
here's what I'm looking for in it, yeah
sometimes it helps, right, butsometimes I still don't want to.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Right and not help in terms of sway your opinion, but
help in terms of clarifyingsome of the internal stories the
partner's making up aboutwhat's wanted right, and how do
we encounter someone else'sdesires without feeling pressure
to fulfill it, but then alsohave a satisfying relationship
(40:39):
because most of us learn thatour relationships are about
meeting each other's needs.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Well, what if you need?
And and that's alwayscomplicated for me because I
don't know how to make adifference what's the difference
?
Yeah, right, but how do I meetyour desires if what you desire
I do not want?
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I don't know, I like how you boiled it down to the
problem being this.
You know you can boil it downto this one question how do we
do this?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
well, places we could punctuate it, and I don't claim
to know what the actual youknow thing is, but for me here
(41:28):
some of like the key pieces arelike what is your willingness to
tolerate your partner's?
Speaker 1 (41:32):
disappointment.
I like this.
You're almost thinking throughlike a treatment plan of like
what are the skills we've got?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
what are we gonna do?
so these key points, yeah rightwhat is your willingness to
tolerate or your your ability totolerate your partner's
disappointment?
How can we create arelationship that is safe enough
for the two of you to wantdifferent things or the same
(42:02):
thing at different times or indifferent ways?
Like, what is our capacity totolerate that?
We are different people?
All right, yeah.
And what beliefs about sex orabout relationships or about
conflict do we need to unlearnin order to be able to negotiate
(42:22):
better?
Because so many of these women,I'm sure, believe, are keeping
that, believe that they arekeeping, in order to be able?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
to negotiate better, because so many of these women,
I'm sure, believe that they arekeeping the peace and they
haven't had a sainthood about it.
And they haven't had a momentof peace in years.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
But I believe that they're saying I don't want to
fight, I don't want a conflict.
Well, you're not fighting withhim, so you're fighting with
yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
You're choosing to fight.
I don't want a conflict.
Well, you're not fighting withhim, so you're fighting with
yourself.
You're choosing to fight withyourself instead.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
A more comfortable playing field, sure, and that's
your right to choose that, butlet's not equate your distress,
your privately held distress aspeace, because then there's no
resolution.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
I love your language and I'm so glad I'm I'm
recording this.
All the transcribed turned onbecause you just said a really
beautiful sentence and it'salready not right.
I already would have misquotedyou.
Your words were more beautifulyeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
So these are some of the thoughts I have in this
moment, and I really appreciateyou letting me just kind of like
spitball what have I missedwhat?
Where should we go deeper?
I know we've got about seven oreight minutes left, and so I
want to make sure that I you inthe time.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
You are absolutely, really generous and I and I like
where the conversation's goneand I'm curious if there are
things that you thought of thatI did not when I was
interpreting this and thinkingabout this, because there's
going to be things that I don'tyeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
How are you operationalizing?
There was a phrase that youwere using um social safety?
Yeah, and I'm curious what thatmeans.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Um, in the context of your and lisa diamond's
research, um, she, we were usingthat in the context of a lot of
the recent research about notjust so the the idea of social
safety comes from minoritystress research, um, but
extrapolating the choices wemake to keep our social safety
comes from minority stressresearch.
But extrapolating the choices wemake to keep our social safety,
theorizing the, why it'straumatic, is because it feels
(44:32):
like there's so much to losewith a no in the way that the
relationship is either set upfor that couple or for this
community or I don't know theUSS culture, you know, but for
some reason, you know, lookingat the risk of a no and that for
some people it's much higherthan for others.
And so the dishonest yes tokeep false harmony is an attempt
(44:57):
to cope with their fear oflosing their social stability.
Meet the social of therelationship, their relationship
stability would, especially ifthat relationship is where you
get your housing stability oryou get your parenting stability
or you get your.
You know, um these socialfactors, that if sex ruined the
(45:20):
relationship you would be in adifficult position socially.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
For all those reasons , I would argue that this is
even though we are socialcreatures.
Largely what you're describinggoes much further than social.
We're talking about literalsafety, right that if I'm
counting on for financialsecurity.
That's structural, structuralright.
That literally could be thedifference between life and
(45:48):
death right and yeah oursuperficial relationship to
social um could diminish that,so I would invite um I like that
change in language.
Yeah, I would invite you toliterally just call it safety
and, to you know, outline all ofthe ways in which I mean, if
you were going to you know, sortof take that angle, because
(46:11):
it's going into structural andpractical and all these other
forms.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for asking that questionyeah, I hadn't, of course,
thought very long on that you'reright.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Right, and so if we're talking about negotiations
around safety, that also makesthis larger than a coping
strategy.
Right, it also becomes, um, Idon't I don't exactly know what
the word is of what's largerthan coping, but it feels the
(46:43):
magnitude, also feels differentthan coping.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
And I don't know that it's true for all of our
participants.
In fact I know it's not truefor all of our participants.
When we look at the data, theydid say this was my attempt at
keeping a co-parent and anincome and housing, and for some
(47:10):
it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
For some it was so.
For some folks it's protective,but these are some form of
safety negotiation, at least forthis cohort of folks, you know,
for folks who fall intowhatever quadrant you know,
you're describing, and I don'tknow if you have thoughts or
theories around what ishappening for others, but I do
(47:33):
imagine they actually have morein common, these categories.
they have a lot in common.
Even if it's not, I think mypartner will take my kid and
leave, or that I cannotfinancially support myself, but
there is something that they areunwilling or unable to
(47:57):
skillfully address withouthaving to say yes to a no right,
and and it is mostsignificantly impacting the
folks who are now experiencingdistress on the other side of it
right if, if I'm understandingthe research correctly, what I'm
(48:18):
hearing is it's a pretty commonexperience for women to say yes
to sex.
That is a no for them and formany of those folks that just
like is a thing yeah, I have sex, that that I don't otherwise
want, and I would imagine that'strue across genders.
Right that, yeah, people,people do that, I know men yeah,
(48:38):
it does, yeah, yeah, um butthat we're zeroing in on.
For some of these folks, likethis is like a huge thing, like
this is a problem and it'screating significant levels of
distress.
Um, or it's creating distressand for a subset of those folks,
the distress is likesignificant enough to garner
ptsd status, yeah, and so itsounds like we're looking at how
(49:01):
do we understand what'shappening here so that we can
especially take care of thesefolks yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah,
exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
I'm not like ringing this bell.
That, stopped doing this.
It hurts everyone.
It's like ring this oh, forsome people in this group, this
is not a good strategy.
You know, we've got to.
We've got to.
Yeah, um, so this is helpful.
Any other like just op-edcomments of, as your, if you're
unique, yeah, in the world.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
I think this is a place that could be intervened
on with different relationshiped especially around conflict
resolution.
Of course, this is a place thatwould benefit from sex ed
because most things do.
I think that this is, as youreally wisely put like, not only
(49:55):
a consent issue and still alsoa consent issue, if we
acknowledge that a lot of theframing around consent is around
not just like whether or notyou give a yes, but I think
that's what enthusiastic wastrying to get at like.
Is this an?
The word I often use with myclients is embodied yes, you can
say yes to anything, right?
(50:17):
Do you feel yes right in?
Speaker 1 (50:21):
whatever way you feel things.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, I think the research is trying is kind of
calling that wanting, becausethey're saying consenting and
wanting are two different rightexperiences, and so I think, for
the folks who are talking aboutconsent and using words like
enthusiastic, I think that iswhat they are trying to get at.
(50:43):
Do you want to?
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Do you agree?
Not?
Are you willing?
Not, do you?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
allow Right and there is room for all of that If that
is an experience that you cangive a genuine yes to, can give
a genuine yes to right.
If I can borrow another minuteand a half, it makes me think of
(51:14):
the work of Betty Martin.
Yes, we talked to Betty lastweek.
She's amazing, but I thinkabout the three minute game.
Yeah, one of my personalfavorite roles is allow.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, I love a good allow, I would take.
Take it, unless it pops you outof that circle, right?
That's what I'm still wonderingis like is this pattern pushing
a safe allow into beyond thatboundary and what we're hearing?
Speaker 2 (51:36):
is yes right that you are taking more than I want, or
I don't want to give that, orwhatever the case is.
But a lot of the conflictbegins with how well do I know
where my line is and do Iadvocate for that?
Because beyond that, it'sactually not my responsibility
If you take something from me.
I wasn't giving right Like, yes, I'm going to feel the
(51:58):
consequences of that and thatcan be traumatic, but I don't
have something to reconcile withmyself around it.
If I truly believe that I'vedone everything that I was meant
to do to keep myself safe,right.
But if you're taking from methings that I haven't told you
you cannot have or that I'm notactually intending to offer, I
didn't know that I was givingyou that or I don't really want
(52:18):
to give that to you.
I really want that one.
That's my favorite one.
That's my best one that's mybest one yeah, you can have a
bite, but I didn't want you tohave that bite yeah, I've been
saving it.
Right now you're hoarding yourfood because you like don't want
them to see it, because youdon't want them to want some,
because you don't trust thatthey're going to interact with
(52:40):
it.
Well, yeah, that like there's.
It feels like there's somethingthere, right, and meanwhile
partners think that they're likeserving.
I'm giving you something thatyou want, you know are you
having a terrible time?
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Why are you having a terrible time when I'm giving
you.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Or they don't know that you're having a terrible
time.
But why is it so?
Hard to get you to do this withme all the time, if you're like
, yeah, I like like sex, or youused to like sex and now you
hate it.
And why do you hate it now,right, when we've had all these
great experiences, but all of asudden you're just like don't
want me anymore.
Yeah, so those are some kind ofamorphous thoughts that I'm
(53:22):
glad that it is yourresponsibility to figure out
what to do with it.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I'm just starting a conversation.
I'm trying to make it clear inmy book that I am not like that.
I'm that this is the start of aconversation, that the book is
not like an end all be all theconversation, because I just, I
just think we haven't quitelooked at this from this angle
and it's interesting to me, andI think we all run into it and
(53:47):
haven't quite known what to doand why the heck are the desire
interventions not working forthis couple yeah, yeah, and they
won't yeah, sensei phone, notgonna happen, not gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, she doesn't want this.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Why are you touching me?
Go away.
Yeah, because because now she'strying to please the therapist.
This was an assignment, so I'mstill having the same experience
, where I'm saying yes to thething, my body is saying no to,
you know, and I want to want it.
I want to want it.
Yeah, you know, this was sogood.
I really appreciate your time.
And I think yeah, I love today,I really appreciate it.
(54:25):
Okay, thanks so much for theconversation and for your
thoughts, really valuable.
Talk soon.
Bye-bye.
Hello, sex Therapy 101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really going
to be offering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me, and one ofthose is a book for the public
(00:30):
about my research aboutregarding long-term outcomes of
consenting to unwanted sex, orduty sex as we sometimes call it
, and in doing that, adding tomy own research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because these were
all recorded over the course ofa year and I wanted to talk to
(00:53):
experts about the culturalimplications or cultural beliefs
or the cultural ideas amongdifferent communities in the US
that might protect peopleagainst negative outcomes and
that might actually kind ofpromote people into some of the
more negative outcomes.
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
(01:17):
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
Now I'll give you a little bitof a bio for each and then we'll
jump into the recording of theinterview.
(01:38):
This interview is with ShadeenFrancis, who's a licensed
marriage and familypsychotherapist.
She's a board certified sextherapist.
Her expertise spans the domainsof mental health, emotional
intelligence and theintersection of sexual wellness
and social justice.
She's a sought-after voice inher field.
I can attest to that.
I've really enjoyed beingtaught and led by her.
(02:00):
She's been featured in majornetworks, including ABC, nbc,
cbs, and has been the subjectmatter expert for prominent
brands.
Her work extends beyond thetherapy room.
She's influencing nationallyimplemented curriculum, global
media strategies and publichealth policies.
She's known for her signaturebrand of warmth and humor.
(02:22):
Shadeen's work is inspired byher commitment to helping people
live lives full of peace andpleasure.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation.
Okay, so it was really generousof you in the first place to
spend 10 of your minutes to lookat this research.
This girl did right, so I'mworking on getting it ready to
(02:42):
publish with Lisa Diamond.
We've been working on that.
She was on my committee, sothank you for just spending that
10 minutes looking at what wefound, which is okay.
There's this pattern and womenwho consent the language we're
using right now is consent tosex they don't necessarily want.
What are those outcomes longterm?
And just shocked to find, oh mygoodness, they're scoring
(03:05):
moderate to high in on this onemeasure for trauma.
They're all saying resentment,lower desire from your lens and
your theoretical orientation,your training.
How do you interpret that likewhat's happening and why?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
from my frame of reference and scope of practice,
we could talk about this in afew ways I like to orient my
work around our emotions asmessages for what it is that we
(03:44):
are experiencing, such that theycan also give us information
about what we need.
A bias of my work is that,essentially, we experience the
world at the level of ournervous system and so I end up
saying things like everyonewants to know how to fuck.
Let me remind you how to feel,which ends up being with my
(04:06):
little tagline I like it thanky'all.
Um, and so for me, part of whatresentment is is that it exists
on our scale around anger.
Lots of people have different,lots of different ways, so this
is not the universal way to workon it.
This is a way that I approachit with folks, and so when I'm
(04:28):
talking with folks about theirexperience of resentment and its
relationship to anger, ourangry feelings are the feelings
that let us know I have a needthat is going unmet and or I
have a boundary that's beinguncrossed or being crossed.
Sorry, I like that.
Yep, yeah, um, and so when wehave these long-term boundary
(04:55):
issues or unmet needs, part ofwhat resentment is we?
We think it has a lot to dowith the other person.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It is an accountability conflict with
yourself say more, because thatwas really beautiful and I agree
yeah, and so what does that andwhat does that mean?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
right, that I am doing something that is wrong
for me, and so that brings backin the piece that you were
naming in your explainer videoaround where consent the larger
conversations around consent canfall short because they are
saying yes, but they're sayingyes to a no.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
An internal no.
Yeah, that there's thisboundary conflict with self and
the resentment I'm hearing yousay is this it's just
information, trying to teach ussomething about ourselves, which
is this isn't working for meand so, in the same way that if
we had any other recurringboundary conflict, we would
(06:00):
experience the relationalconsequences, they are
experiencing the relationalconsequences.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
They are experiencing the relational consequences and
the emotional consequences andlikely the spiritual
consequences.
I imagine lots of your folkswould also rate really high
around hopelessness.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, that was high on one of the scales when it
looked at the relationship.
There was like really highhopelessness or change in their
relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah, I imagine they would also rank really low
around things likeself-confidence or beliefs in
their own self-efficacy.
Right, and from my scope ofpractice, that has so much to do
with I am dishonoring my own,no.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I like how you're normalizing this and saying this
might not necessarily be asexual conversation, but that
this is going to show up anytime.
We're ignoring these internalboundary conflicts.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah and it does um, it's just really sticky in sex
and really pervasive in sex,because you did a beautiful job
of starting to describe thecycle um this loop that folks
get caught into.
So I I often, for very good andnormal reasons, betray my no
(07:25):
and then it complicates myability to say yes, yeah, and so
now when I say no later, itsomehow feels worse.
And when I ultimately say yes,then I dissatisfied, I avoid, I
(07:59):
acquiesce, we are dissatisfiedwe are dissatisfied.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I like how you're highlighting that it's also an
internal process, not just arelational process, because it
did show that even for the women, where there was no emotional
or verbal coercion, the guy waslike yep, yep, yep, consent,
king.
You know, they still had thishappening inside of them and I
loved how you said that, thatwhen we betray our own, no, it's
this internal conflict and fora lot of folks when I see that,
(08:32):
when I see this pattern incouples.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
A lot of the times the other partner has no idea
this is happening.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I agree, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, my partner has no idea.
This is all happening inside ofme, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
My partner has no idea.
This is all happening inside ofme.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And especially when it's women.
Women believe they're superconvincing I was like I do such
a good job hiding this and theirpartners, regardless of gender,
tend to pick up on, likethere's something up here.
But the women are also usuallylying about it and this is not
(09:07):
to blame folks for being in adifficult position.
This is just naming wherechanges could happen without the
partner's buy-in Right, thatwomen are often lying about it
when asked.
But also a lot of the times thepartners are like I didn't even
want sex yet.
Or like, yeah, maybe that couldhave gone to sex.
I just like wanted to, like beclose, right.
(09:27):
Or I, yeah, asked for sex thatthis time, but like literally no
, no pressure.
I just said, hey, do you wanna?
You know I was just rubbing herthigh and if it didn't go
anywhere, fine.
Um, whether or not that'salways literally true, you know
(09:48):
I'm not laying in bed next tothem.
They can't afford that.
Into this position where,because they do not trust their
(10:10):
themselves and or their partnerto be able to handle a no grace
graciously and gracefully, theywould rather not have the
conversation at all, right, like, if you know, like I'm going to
have to say yes, the next bestway to have a no happen is to
keep from being asked, right,and so so many folks desexualize
(10:31):
their relationships andthemselves to keep from having
to say no, because they oftendon't believe that they can, or
they don't believe their no willmatter enough for a no to
happen.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, this just made a connection for me with some
other research where one of thehighest PTSD symptoms was
avoidance.
And I'm kind of translatingwhat you're saying, as the
avoidance is a coping mechanismto avoid having to have the
discussion.
If I can just avoid thisconversation, if I can just
never get us in a situationwhere we might talk about sex or
where we might touch or wherewe might, you know, the
avoidance plays a coping rolehere.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, I mean, and it's it's kind of classic trauma
response, right, because if Ione of one of the most likely,
one of the things that is commonacross most traumas is I was in
an experience I couldn't getout of right.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So this is that I felt like I had no choice or no
collaboration.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I can't, I can't, if.
If they ask me, I have to sayyes, right.
So of course I'm going to avoidit, right?
I can't get out of that.
It is an unwinnable scenario,right?
When I get put in that position, I am trapped, I am stuck even
(11:58):
if there's no physical trap orphysical stuff, right, yeah?
yeah, yeah, right.
And and that often makes thesticking worse, because I either
don't recognize that I am stuckin like a tangible way, it just
feels like a choice, like, oh,I choose right, rather than this
sort of stuck entrenchedpattern.
(12:19):
Um.
But also, when it's a physicaldynamic, the other partner
usually is aware of theirculpability and here partners
often don't recognize the impactthat they're having.
Right, the, the pouting, whichis a normal response to being
(12:42):
disappointed right.
We do a lot of like shaming, andmaybe this is me protecting it
because I'm a powder, I'm, I'm,I.
I love a good sulk when I'mdisappointed.
Um, right, but that, like, it'skind of a normal thing to do,
even though it's not the mostmature way to handle
disappointment.
Um, it is normal to act outyour feelings and that's not
(13:06):
actually causing harm to anybody, right, we talk about it as if
it is.
But, like, if I'm disappointedand you can see that I'm
disappointed I actually haven'tharmed you.
But that's not how we relate toit Generally, mostly because
most of us cannot tolerate ourown disappointment, so it's
borderline devastating toexperience yourself as
(13:29):
disappointing to someone else.
Say that again.
Yeah most of us cannot hold ourown disappointment, and so it's
borderline disappointing, it'sborderline devastating to
experience yourself as havingdisappointed someone else.
We can handle that, yeah, we.
We have such a hard timehandling that, and I imagine
(13:50):
that that's part of what youwere getting over and over in
your interviews is thisunwillingness to be experienced
as disappointing their partnerssexually we don't want to
integrate that yeah into ourself-concept to yeah, yeah yeah,
even though they, ultimately,it becomes inevitable right this
process, the disappointment,it's the calls from coming from
(14:14):
inside the house.
So to speak you know that byavoiding, I'm disappointing them
.
If they were to find out that Iam saying that, that what they
are getting is not good consent,they are disappointed.
Were they to know that I'm notenjoying this?
They're disappointed.
Were they to know that Iexperience them as unthoughtful
(14:34):
or unaware or unkind or notcaring about my no or my
boundaries or my pleasure?
They're disappointed, and alsoyou're disappointed.
You do not want to be in thisdynamic with this person.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Many of these relationships, I'm sure, are
otherwise deeply loving and adeeply wanted relationship.
The disappointment is alreadyhere, where there is quite a bit
more, maybe blame or looking atthe couple dynamic.
But I like this piece whereyou're centering the internal
experience of the individual,which I like because it is
(15:16):
actually empowering to say, oh,if a lot of this is happening
within me, then a lot of change.
I have the power to make a lotof change within me too.
I don't have to focus my energyon changing the person in bed
with me.
I like how you're highlightingthe internal piece a lot.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Thank you, right, and this, this for me, does not
remove culpability of thepartner for whatever role they
are playing in it, and for me,I'm just aware that with only
one person's story, I don'tactually really know what's
happening on the other side, andso a bias of my work is like
there's not a whole lot that Ifeel confident in working on
(15:57):
there, because I have no ideawho your partner is and what
they're experiencing at thattime, right?
So, unless you tell me a storywhere I can hear some tangible
and what did they do?
What did they say?
How did they respond?
What did they initiate with?
What have you said to them thatyou know that they heard and
understood and received, right,that we've got such a limited
(16:20):
scope of data and I'm also anLMFT and so I am tracking these,
right?
Um, and it's cut in halfbecause you got one.
I've got right, so all I canwork with is okay.
Well, what came in and whatwent out?
Right, I have no idea aboutabout the rest of this, and much
(16:43):
of this will end up beinggendered, because I imagine that
you, in working with women whoexperienced this, I imagine that
the vast majority of the folkswere in heterosexual
relationships, so partnered withmen.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, I mean we I feel oh, I just really didn't
anticipate such a homogeneoussample Like my demographic
section of the study allowed for, like all the people to show up
and say what they wanted to,and I was going to track it and
I kind of am blaming it a littlebit on the algorithm because
(17:16):
social media was my biggest.
So I think, like people foundit, found like people who found
it, sure, and so these 1300women, the majority of them were
white, in the western part ofthe united states, middle class,
educated, christian, and I'mlike okay is this a white
christian woman problem?
(17:36):
I gotta talk to some people.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You know, yeah, I, I think the algorithm is really
great for that.
You know, showing more of thesame.
I think also, these are thetimes when you remember,
regardless of like, who you'reactually working with, like, oh
yeah, there are a lot of whitestraight people in relationships
in the Western part of thecountry who are Christ followers
(17:59):
, right, like it's somethingthat I don't know who you
generally work with, but theseare times when you're like, oh
yeah, there are a lot of thosearen't there and they also want
to be centered in theseconversations and tell their
stories.
And I appreciate you beingintentional about being curious
(18:21):
about what this looks likeelsewhere.
And I don't think that, um,this is a uniquely that slice of
the population problem.
I think we know that it is notuniquely that slice of the
population problem.
I certainly would be curiousaround the numbers, the
proportions, for other groups,like five percent for people of
(18:43):
color yeah, and I'd be socurious how this would line up
in almost like a gut punch.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I was like you know, like it's really hard to
generalize, but then I'm likeI'm just going to talk to people
.
I don't want my research to bein a vacuum.
I don't want to say I did thisresearch and applies to all
people, but I I do want to talkto experts to.
I don't want to be my ownvacuum of my own making.
And so, as an expert in theintersection of sexuality and
(19:15):
the black community, you said Idon't think this is necessarily.
You know, I think that I thinkI've seen this here too.
Yeah, are you able to do?
Can you speak to some of that?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, and so what I will also say racially, my
practice is super spread, um, Iwould say these days it's fairly
even across folks who are whitefolks, who are black folks, who
are north asian, and I think Ionly have two south asian folks
(19:49):
and one person who still haslike reservation connections,
feels really tied to theirindigenous identity.
Um, and some of those folks arealso Hispanic, sort of looped
into the fold.
What I will say about the Blackcommunity in particular,
(20:12):
because you asked about thatspecifically in this moment, I'm
curious across the board, howthe proportions of your findings
would line up.
I think you would find much ofthe same and you would probably
find some other uniquenarratives.
I'm going to say a lot ofthings that might sound
contradictory here.
(20:33):
Okay, I'm not super invested ina tidy story, but wanted to
name it up front.
Here are some thoughts.
One, black women are probablymore accustomed to doing shit
they don't want to do, just likeat baseline.
I think the experience of giving, saying yes when you mean no,
(20:57):
is a really common, not justwoman experience, but Black
experience, woman experience butblack experience when we think
of the context of whitesupremacy and how often it is
required to be deferential orpermissive or acquiescing in
(21:18):
order to get your basic needsmet.
You talked about safety, andthat is a huge safety factor
that you learn really, reallyearly in big and small ways,
right?
Big ways being like how do youinteract with police officers,
right?
Small ways being like how doyou interact with your white
coworkers?
Right, and having thoseinteractions be high risk for
(21:58):
your?
safety and needing, and so I'mcurious how much or how little
this would relate to, likesymptomatology, rather than sort
of being experienced on somelevel as the way things are and
(22:21):
say more.
Do you think that would beprotective, right, by
normalizing this level of sayingyes when I mean no, there's
less conflict around it, becauseI know why, I know why I'm
doing it and it doesn't feel outof alignment with with my
values or with my understandingsof self.
Right, I could imagine on yeah,yeah, from the biased frame,
(22:46):
from the particular biases thatI have chosen to frame this
around, um, there's less resent,there's less resentment,
there's less internal conflict,right, it's, it's not
particularly conflictual, right,but like you want to have a
peaceful day, like you engage inchit chat with your co-worker
(23:07):
that you don't particularly likebut don't want to risk
offending her, yeah, it'd beinteresting to see if it pops up
, but if there's certainelements of various cultures
that are protective or I couldimagine that for some of my
maybe both my north andsoutheast, south asian clients,
(23:31):
um, sort of a greaterpermissiveness and sometimes
pride around deference,potentially also being
protective, potentially alsobeing protective, right, yeah,
some of this stuff around youknow, there there were some
quotes that came through aroundtheir needs, um, and there can
(23:53):
be ways in which, in incollectivist cultures, in which
that feels less like a burden ofself-sacrifice and more of a
way that we move through theworld, right, a way that we
honor not just the other personbut honor ourselves.
Right, that it is dignifying tome to be deeply invested in your
(24:16):
wellbeing with a foundationalbelief that that is also what
you're doing in return.
I don't need to track that ormeasure that or even to know
that, but there is somefundamental belief that this is
what people do.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I'm hearing you say I want you to correct me if I'm
wrong or keep me centered onwhere you're going.
I'm hearing you say the degreeto which a certain culture maybe
values collectivism orindividualism could also be a
factor here, and those who valuecollectivism may, on their own,
find less resentment in meetingeach other's needs, and in a
(24:55):
more individualized, valuedculture there may be more
possibility for feelingresentment that we have to meet
each other's needs is.
That is that where you were?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
at it.
Yeah, you know, uh, phrasingthat comes to mind in this
moment in listening to youreflect what I said back to me
is that in a collectivisticculture, it may be less
appropriate to trace this alongthe lines of coercion, because
(25:28):
those cultures may notexperience folks belonging to
those cultures may notexperience this as power over
rather than power with.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Okay, writing down power over versus power with
yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, right that those cultures may not see this
as your needs are more importantthan mine, but that this is
what we need.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It shifts what is otherwise experienced as a power
imbalance and we would see theBlack community as having more
community, more value in thecollective perhaps.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I don't know how well that piece applies to Blackness
.
I'm thinking in that moment ofmy Asian clients, both North and
South Asian clients.
So I have a growing handful ofclients who are specifically
from India and Pakistan, andthen some folks from Korea and
Singapore and Vietnam.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Which are traditionally much more
collective.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Significantly much more collective when we're
talking about Black blackness,because the diaspora is so huge,
right?
Um, it's hard to say, andcollectivism has had a
complicated relationship withwithin black communities because
of the history, the uniquehistory of enslavement on this
land.
But it really disrupted a lotof clear ties to collectivism.
(27:02):
So it's sort of it's sort of inbetween right, that blackness in
and of itself is a racialidentity rather than a an ethnic
identity or even really a clearculture.
Right, right, but it doesn'tget to sit cleanly in
individualism or collectivism,because historically there would
(27:23):
have been a lot ofcollectivistic attitudes and
when you go back to other placeswhere black people are from,
they maintain a lot of that.
But blackness in the us iswarped around all of these lines
.
Yeah, right, that enslavementdid a lot of disrupting around
sense of connection and sense ofself and even sense of place
(27:47):
which is an aside from whatwe're talking about but sort of
complicates the narrative for mearound saying having a good
imagining for for how it relatesor doesn't to black communities
in in the us and I should alsoacknowledge some um
autobiography, autobiographicalpieces here to also clarify some
(28:09):
of the lenses and biases that Ihave.
Um, so some identity markers forme I am black surprise.
Um, I am queer.
I am not american.
I'm canadian, um, I've beenhere for 11 years now, which is
(28:31):
non-us citizen, um, and so thosethings I think will influence
how I talk about some of this.
I am sort of mid-tier priced inmy area.
I'm not an insurance acceptor.
So it also filters through whoI get to see and work with and
(28:51):
that I am not among our practice.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Agreed yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
So I'm not among the folks who are charging what we
could be charging in this fieldin order to remain accessible,
and still I am not accessible toa huge segment of the
population here.
And then I did say that mypractice is pretty racially and
ethnically spread, almostexactly evenly split around
(29:17):
couples and individuals, or notcouples I used to say
relationships, because I workwith a lot of non-monogamous
folk but, yeah, those thingsinfluence how this shows up for
me in my work, and so I wantedto also name and be transparent
about some of the biases thatI'm introducing here.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Thoughts on this dynamic of consenting to
unwanted sex and outcomes,protective factors, if we look
at it through the lens ofqueerness instead of the lens of
blackness.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I would be unsurprised if gay men
experienced this less you'd beunsurprised I would be
unsurprised if gay menexperienced this left on some
level, because men are moreaccustomed to saying no to men.
(30:14):
I'm thinking about the couplesthat I have worked with, and
when sex comes in as a problemand it's usually, I mean, it's
the same boring problem we seeall the time.
One person wants more sex, theother person doesn't, um, but
they're solidly just not havingsex.
They're just not having the sexI don't want it, so we're not
(30:35):
doing.
We're not doing it, and I don'tthink that's necessarily about
inherently being a betterself-advocate or about being
more boundaried, um, becausethey play out all kinds of other
games with each other um butthey are either like we have sex
because he wants it and likewhatever, um, and so there's not
(30:58):
deep conflict around it.
It's like, yeah, whatever we doit, um, or we're just not having
the sex right.
There's less of this like muddy, like we do it but I don't want
to do it and I feel bad aboutit, and then I try to not do it
next time and I don't know thatthey're going to listen to me,
and then I kind of feel, youknow, forced, but they're not
forcing me.
But they're kind of forcing mebecause they keep asking me.
(31:18):
And why do they keep asking me?
Can't they tell that I don'twant to?
more transparent, more bold,more more clear clear more clear
, right, um, more decisive, um,and yeah I I just wonder if that
(31:39):
is, if that has to do more withmen being more accustomed to
saying no to other men.
Um, I think men are less worriedabout wounding men around sex
like the.
The sex negotiations and gamesthat men play tend to be much
(31:59):
more direct.
Women tend to be very worriedabout, you know, penis ego in
ways that gay men just do notattend to right.
That's why it's very easy forgay culture, gay men culture, to
have like a bathroom hookupculture.
I met you in a bathroom and Idon't know your name.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, that's a really interesting connection.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Right, yay or nay.
Hey, you're hot, want to makeout.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah, what would you think then?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
with women who have sex with women.
Women who have sex with womenwill do this game similarly, but
also different.
Similarly, but also different.
There tends to be lessdirectness compared to gay men,
but in my experience, gay womenare doing more like tracking,
(32:58):
tracking and checking of thecues, like they're very like.
The avoidance becomes on bothsides I don't want, I don't
pursue you for sex because Idon't think you want it much,
right and right, and I might,you know, whine and complain and
feel bad and sad and you mightgive in, but then I feel shitty
about it.
Right, there's like a differentlevel of like emotional stakes
on both sides.
(33:18):
Right, this is very rarely aone-person problem.
This tends to be and again,anecdotal from my clinical
experience but that they bothend up avoiding it.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, interesting, possibly eliminate some of the
scripts we have about malesexuality, maybe it being
dangerous or out of control or adeal breaker, or they'll find
it somewhere else or these youknow, kind of worries for
heterosexual women.
But what's going to stay isthat, anticipating the emotional
disappointment and tracking allof that without conversation,
(34:02):
yeah, and I actually don'texperience the first part.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
They still do all of that.
They still do all of that,worrying that you're going to
leave, worrying that you'redissatisfied, worrying that
you're thinking about your ex,worrying that you want to go.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
You know, that script might be tied less to men than
I'm giving a credit, and it'stied to what sex means in a
relationship, much less thanwhat sex means to a man in a
relationship.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Okay, Okay, we believe sex means about my value
to you.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Okay, yeah, you're saying it could be a lot less
gendered here and a lot moreabout our own insecurities, am I
?
But am I interpreting you right?
No, I I.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I think that that's right, because the clients that
I experience this with um, thosewho have kids, tend to do with
their kids also.
I say yes when I mean no, youwant something, and I bend over
backwards and I kind of I don'thate my kids, I love my kids,
(35:08):
but I hate dancing and I can'tfigure out why.
I just want to like run away,but I love them and so I should
bring them with me, but also Ijust like wish that I was just
like by myself on an island andno one could ask me for anything
.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I love that you're taking this experience outside
of the container of sexuality tosay look at all the ways women
say yes when they mean no, andthese outcomes are playing out
in parenthood and they'replaying out in relationships,
probably playing out of work.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
It's happening with your friendships, it's happening
with your family.
I've just so rarely seen thiscontained well enough for it to.
It is a sexual problem, and sothere is grounds to address it
in sex, because there issomething very specific about
what's happening here sexually,and there's something about the
level of deference and, um fearthat women in particular
(36:03):
experience sexually with otherpeople.
That really needs to beaddressed, and I think that it
is amplified by how we negotiateconflict outside of sex,
especially historically, what wewere taught around whether or
(36:27):
not your needs matter as much asanybody else's, who you can say
no to and what the consequencesof that are.
And also, when we get intorelational dynamics that teach
you this hierarchy, you tend totake it it outside.
So even if you didn't have thathistorically or you couldn't
trace it for yourselfhistorically, if you learn it in
(36:50):
a relationship that feels likethe stakes are riding on whether
or not you get what you wantfrom me, including my body, when
you want it I like thisconversation we're having.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, because it's really highlighting.
When we look at the scattergraph of our research, it was
like there was this quadrant ofpeople who clearly there was no
coercion and they had highlevels of these symptoms, and so
you're describing that quadrantwhere you know in a way that
for a minute we were like oh,this is a math issue.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Can we get a statistician in here please?
I know our numbers but.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
But this is that this is where there can be high
levels of resentment andavoidance and anxiety, very low
levels of external pressure orcoercion or emotional but deep
beliefs around in order tosatisfy this difference between
what I want and what you want,or what I think you want.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Um, I have to give myself away, right, we really
struggle.
I mean, we could oversimplifythis and call this desire
discrepancy, but, like we don'tknow what to do with, I want
something that is different thanwhat you want in the context of
sex.
We just have not figured thatout, right, which is why we have
(38:12):
the same conversation 90billion times.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, and very little change.
I don't know, Maybe that's notfair of me but Very little.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
We haven't figured out how to do that, and the
parts of me that are inherentlyradicalized um acknowledge that
we really haven't been able todo that in any forefront.
So of course we can't negotiategenitals swirling and rubbing
around all over each otherbecause we haven't figured out
how to do that in terms of theland.
(38:42):
We haven't figured out how todo that in terms of made-up shit
like borders.
We haven't figured out how todo this right in terms of
resource distribution right, wehave yeah, it's almost always
one person.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
One side wins, one person, one side loses, right I
mean you can't cut the baby inhalf.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I mean, you could, but you shouldn't.
You could, but you shouldn't.
You probably shouldn't.
You could, but you shouldn't.
You probably shouldn't, yeah,and even if you did, people
would argue about which piecethey get.
Yeah, right, we don't know howto reconcile these differences,
and we do track fairness, and sofor these folks it feels unfair
(39:23):
, unfairness.
And so for these folks it feelsunfair.
Many of them are angry withtheir partners because how could
you put me in this position?
And all the partner did waswant.
Want.
I want to come, I want to touch.
I want to be close to you.
I want to feel inside your body.
I want to experience you inpleasure.
I want to kill 35 minutes.
I want to sleep well, well, Iwant to be distracted from my
(39:43):
feelings.
I want to feel skillful,powerful, desired, interesting,
curious.
I want to feel brave.
I want to feel strong.
I want to feel small.
I want to feel submissive.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I want to dominate right, they just want um, and
maybe some of that clarifyinglanguage would actually help
this discrepancy.
Instead of the, do you wannathe?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
here's what I'm looking for in it, yeah
sometimes it helps, right, butsometimes I still don't want to.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Right and not help in terms of sway your opinion, but
help in terms of clarifyingsome of the internal stories the
partner's making up aboutwhat's wanted right, and how do
we encounter someone else'sdesires without feeling pressure
to fulfill it, but then alsohave a satisfying relationship
(40:39):
because most of us learn thatour relationships are about
meeting each other's needs.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Well, what if you need?
And and that's alwayscomplicated for me because I
don't know how to make adifference what's the difference
?
Yeah, right, but how do I meetyour desires if what you desire
I do not want?
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I don't know, I like how you boiled it down to the
problem being this.
You know you can boil it downto this one question how do we
do this?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
well, places we could punctuate it, and I don't claim
to know what the actual youknow thing is, but for me here
(41:28):
some of like the key pieces arelike what is your willingness to
tolerate your partner's?
Speaker 1 (41:32):
disappointment.
I like this.
You're almost thinking throughlike a treatment plan of like
what are the skills we've got?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
what are we gonna do?
so these key points, yeah rightwhat is your willingness to
tolerate or your your ability totolerate your partner's
disappointment?
How can we create arelationship that is safe enough
for the two of you to wantdifferent things or the same
(42:02):
thing at different times or indifferent ways?
Like, what is our capacity totolerate that?
We are different people?
All right, yeah.
And what beliefs about sex orabout relationships or about
conflict do we need to unlearnin order to be able to negotiate
(42:22):
better?
Because so many of these women,I'm sure, believe, are keeping
that, believe that they arekeeping, in order to be able?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
to negotiate better, because so many of these women,
I'm sure, believe that they arekeeping the peace and they
haven't had a sainthood about it.
And they haven't had a momentof peace in years.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
But I believe that they're saying I don't want to
fight, I don't want a conflict.
Well, you're not fighting withhim, so you're fighting with
yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
You're choosing to fight.
I don't want a conflict.
Well, you're not fighting withhim, so you're fighting with
yourself.
You're choosing to fight withyourself instead.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
A more comfortable playing field, sure, and that's
your right to choose that, butlet's not equate your distress,
your privately held distress aspeace, because then there's no
resolution.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
I love your language and I'm so glad I'm I'm
recording this.
All the transcribed turned onbecause you just said a really
beautiful sentence and it'salready not right.
I already would have misquotedyou.
Your words were more beautifulyeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
So these are some of the thoughts I have in this
moment, and I really appreciateyou letting me just kind of like
spitball what have I missedwhat?
Where should we go deeper?
I know we've got about seven oreight minutes left, and so I
want to make sure that I you inthe time.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
You are absolutely, really generous and I and I like
where the conversation's goneand I'm curious if there are
things that you thought of thatI did not when I was
interpreting this and thinkingabout this, because there's
going to be things that I don'tyeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
How are you operationalizing?
There was a phrase that youwere using um social safety?
Yeah, and I'm curious what thatmeans.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Um, in the context of your and lisa diamond's
research, um, she, we were usingthat in the context of a lot of
the recent research about notjust so the the idea of social
safety comes from minoritystress research, um, but
extrapolating the choices wemake to keep our social safety
comes from minority stressresearch.
But extrapolating the choices wemake to keep our social safety,
theorizing the, why it'straumatic, is because it feels
(44:32):
like there's so much to losewith a no in the way that the
relationship is either set upfor that couple or for this
community or I don't know theUSS culture, you know, but for
some reason, you know, lookingat the risk of a no and that for
some people it's much higherthan for others.
And so the dishonest yes tokeep false harmony is an attempt
(44:57):
to cope with their fear oflosing their social stability.
Meet the social of therelationship, their relationship
stability would, especially ifthat relationship is where you
get your housing stability oryou get your parenting stability
or you get your.
You know, um these socialfactors, that if sex ruined the
(45:20):
relationship you would be in adifficult position socially.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
For all those reasons , I would argue that this is
even though we are socialcreatures.
Largely what you're describinggoes much further than social.
We're talking about literalsafety, right that if I'm
counting on for financialsecurity.
That's structural, structuralright.
That literally could be thedifference between life and
(45:48):
death right and yeah oursuperficial relationship to
social um could diminish that,so I would invite um I like that
change in language.
Yeah, I would invite you toliterally just call it safety
and, to you know, outline all ofthe ways in which I mean, if
you were going to you know, sortof take that angle, because
(46:11):
it's going into structural andpractical and all these other
forms.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for asking that questionyeah, I hadn't, of course,
thought very long on that you'reright.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Right, and so if we're talking about negotiations
around safety, that also makesthis larger than a coping
strategy.
Right, it also becomes, um, Idon't I don't exactly know what
the word is of what's largerthan coping, but it feels the
(46:43):
magnitude, also feels differentthan coping.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
And I don't know that it's true for all of our
participants.
In fact I know it's not truefor all of our participants.
When we look at the data, theydid say this was my attempt at
keeping a co-parent and anincome and housing, and for some
(47:10):
it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
For some it was so.
For some folks it's protective,but these are some form of
safety negotiation, at least forthis cohort of folks, you know,
for folks who fall intowhatever quadrant you know,
you're describing, and I don'tknow if you have thoughts or
theories around what ishappening for others, but I do
(47:33):
imagine they actually have morein common, these categories.
they have a lot in common.
Even if it's not, I think mypartner will take my kid and
leave, or that I cannotfinancially support myself, but
there is something that they areunwilling or unable to
(47:57):
skillfully address withouthaving to say yes to a no right,
and and it is mostsignificantly impacting the
folks who are now experiencingdistress on the other side of it
right if, if I'm understandingthe research correctly, what I'm
(48:18):
hearing is it's a pretty commonexperience for women to say yes
to sex.
That is a no for them and formany of those folks that just
like is a thing yeah, I have sex, that that I don't otherwise
want, and I would imagine that'strue across genders.
Right that, yeah, people,people do that, I know men yeah,
(48:38):
it does, yeah, yeah, um butthat we're zeroing in on.
For some of these folks, likethis is like a huge thing, like
this is a problem and it'screating significant levels of
distress.
Um, or it's creating distressand for a subset of those folks,
the distress is likesignificant enough to garner
ptsd status, yeah, and so itsounds like we're looking at how
(49:01):
do we understand what'shappening here so that we can
especially take care of thesefolks yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah,
exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
I'm not like ringing this bell.
That, stopped doing this.
It hurts everyone.
It's like ring this oh, forsome people in this group, this
is not a good strategy.
You know, we've got to.
We've got to.
Yeah, um, so this is helpful.
Any other like just op-edcomments of, as your, if you're
unique, yeah, in the world.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
I think this is a place that could be intervened
on with different relationshiped especially around conflict
resolution.
Of course, this is a place thatwould benefit from sex ed
because most things do.
I think that this is, as youreally wisely put like, not only
(49:55):
a consent issue and still alsoa consent issue, if we
acknowledge that a lot of theframing around consent is around
not just like whether or notyou give a yes, but I think
that's what enthusiastic wastrying to get at like.
Is this an?
The word I often use with myclients is embodied yes, you can
say yes to anything, right?
(50:17):
Do you feel yes right in?
Speaker 1 (50:21):
whatever way you feel things.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, I think the research is trying is kind of
calling that wanting, becausethey're saying consenting and
wanting are two different rightexperiences, and so I think, for
the folks who are talking aboutconsent and using words like
enthusiastic, I think that iswhat they are trying to get at.
(50:43):
Do you want to?
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Do you agree?
Not?
Are you willing?
Not, do you?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
allow Right and there is room for all of that If that
is an experience that you cangive a genuine yes to, can give
a genuine yes to right.
If I can borrow another minuteand a half, it makes me think of
(51:14):
the work of Betty Martin.
Yes, we talked to Betty lastweek.
She's amazing, but I thinkabout the three minute game.
Yeah, one of my personalfavorite roles is allow.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, I love a good allow, I would take.
Take it, unless it pops you outof that circle, right?
That's what I'm still wonderingis like is this pattern pushing
a safe allow into beyond thatboundary and what we're hearing?
Speaker 2 (51:36):
is yes right that you are taking more than I want, or
I don't want to give that, orwhatever the case is.
But a lot of the conflictbegins with how well do I know
where my line is and do Iadvocate for that?
Because beyond that, it'sactually not my responsibility
If you take something from me.
I wasn't giving right Like, yes, I'm going to feel the
(51:58):
consequences of that and thatcan be traumatic, but I don't
have something to reconcile withmyself around it.
If I truly believe that I'vedone everything that I was meant
to do to keep myself safe,right.
But if you're taking from methings that I haven't told you
you cannot have or that I'm notactually intending to offer, I
didn't know that I was givingyou that or I don't really want
(52:18):
to give that to you.
I really want that one.
That's my favorite one.
That's my best one that's mybest one yeah, you can have a
bite, but I didn't want you tohave that bite yeah, I've been
saving it.
Right now you're hoarding yourfood because you like don't want
them to see it, because youdon't want them to want some,
because you don't trust thatthey're going to interact with
(52:40):
it.
Well, yeah, that like there's.
It feels like there's somethingthere, right, and meanwhile
partners think that they're likeserving.
I'm giving you something thatyou want, you know are you
having a terrible time?
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Why are you having a terrible time when I'm giving
you.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Or they don't know that you're having a terrible
time.
But why is it so?
Hard to get you to do this withme all the time, if you're like
, yeah, I like like sex, or youused to like sex and now you
hate it.
And why do you hate it now,right, when we've had all these
great experiences, but all of asudden you're just like don't
want me anymore.
Yeah, so those are some kind ofamorphous thoughts that I'm
(53:22):
glad that it is yourresponsibility to figure out
what to do with it.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I'm just starting a conversation.
I'm trying to make it clear inmy book that I am not like that.
I'm that this is the start of aconversation, that the book is
not like an end all be all theconversation, because I just, I
just think we haven't quitelooked at this from this angle
and it's interesting to me, andI think we all run into it and
(53:47):
haven't quite known what to doand why the heck are the desire
interventions not working forthis couple yeah, yeah, and they
won't yeah, sensei phone, notgonna happen, not gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, she doesn't want this.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Why are you touching me?
Go away.
Yeah, because because now she'strying to please the therapist.
This was an assignment, so I'mstill having the same experience
, where I'm saying yes to thething, my body is saying no to,
you know, and I want to want it.
I want to want it.
Yeah, you know, this was sogood.
I really appreciate your time.
And I think yeah, I love today,I really appreciate it.
(54:25):
Okay, thanks so much for theconversation and for your
thoughts, really valuable.
Talk soon.
Bye-bye.
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