Untangling Duty Sex with Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers

What happens when women repeatedly consent to sex they don't want? Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers, founder of the Northwest Institute on Intimacy and author of "Sex, God and the Conservative Church," joins us to explore this question with unexpected depth and historical context.

This conversation takes a fascinating turn as Dr. Tina traces how patriarchy, politics, and religious messaging converged to create a profound disconnect between women and their sexual agency. She reveals how the rise of the religious right in the late 1970s wasn't just about faith but part of a calculated political strategy that fundamentally changed how Americans view sexuality. While abstinence-only education created "a vacuum of actual knowledge," media deregulation flooded culture with harmful messaging about gender and sex.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers is a licensed sex and gender feminist psychotherapist, best-selling author, researcher, emeriti professor, and media personality whose expertise spans sex therapy, spiritual intimacy, parenting, medicine, and social justice.

 Her revolutionary perspectives have been expressed on platforms such as Spirituality & Health, Refinery 29, Vocal, Medium, and Bust Magazines, along with many podcast, radio, news, and TV outlets. Known for exposing the
impact of patriarchy and sexual shame on our ability to securely attach to our partners, and instruct our children to attach to theirs, Dr. Sellers’ book Sex, God, & the Conservative Church – Erasing Shame from Sexual Intimacy has
had a global impact. Her latest book, Shameless Parenting – Everything You Need to Raise Shame-free, Confident, Kids and Heal Your Shame Too! was a New Release Bestseller in eight categories. She speaks throughout the world on how to heal, and how to raise shame-free relationally confident children. In 2015, Dr. Sellers founded the Northwest Institute on Intimacy, a post-graduate institute to train psychotherapists, educators, clergy, and physicians in sexual
health, healing sexual shame and trauma, and understanding their sexual biases. 

In 2023, Dr. Tina founded InannaRising.org - A private membership community for psychedelic assisted therapists and medical providers to
get ongoing clinical consultation, collaboration, training, and support in creating scholarships for the under resourced, and participation in an indigenous reparation fund. Dr. Tina can be followed on Instagram
@DrTinaShameless. At Facebook  facebook.com/TinaSSellers  Online at www.TinaSchermerSellers.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, sex Therapy 101.
Friends, you notice I mighthave taken a break, but we're
back and we're excited and I'mreally passionate about this new
series that I'm going to beoffering to all of you.
I haven't disappeared.
I've been working on someprojects that are really
meaningful to me, and one ofthose is a book for the public

(00:30):
about my research aboutregarding long-term outcomes of
consenting to unwanted sex, orduty sex as we sometimes call it
.
And in doing that, adding to myown research over the year,
you'll see my hair change, myface change, because this piece
were all recorded over thecourse of a year and I wanted to

(00:52):
talk to experts about thecultural implications or
cultural beliefs or the culturalideas among different
communities in the US that mightprotect people against negative
outcomes and that mightactually kind of promote people
into some of the more negativeoutcomes.

(01:12):
And that is the series I haveto offer you.
I'm really excited.
It's been really meaningful tome, it's been enlightening to me
, it's really helped me makesure that this book is what I
want it to be for all of you.
So, with no ado, here we go.
This is going to be the introfor the whole series.
Now I'll give you a little bitof a bio for each Um and then

(01:35):
we'll jump into the recording ofthe interview.
This conversation was really funwith me with Dr Tina Schumer
Sellers.
Really fun with me with Dr TinaSchumer Sellers.
She was maybe one of the firstbooks I read in regards to the
impact of purity culture withher book Sex, god and the
Conservative Church and her morerecent book, which is called

(01:58):
it's for parents, calledShameless Parenting Everything
you Need to Raise Shame-Free,confident kids and heal your
shame too.
Tina is really fun to talk to.
She's over in Washington, has aprivate practice where she
trains therapists, she foundedthe Northwest Institute on

(02:19):
Intimacy and we're interested ina lot of the similar things and
work with adjacent communitiesand I really hope you love what
she has to say as much as I do.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Hi, cammie Hi.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Tina, how are you?

Speaker 2 (02:35):
I'm great.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
How are you?
I'm good, good, I'm like alittle fangirling right now.
Honestly, I'm like you're goingto talk to Dana.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
No, no, no, no, no.
That hopefully won't last toolong.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Hopefully, yeah, anyway, a long time lover of
your work and I use it with alot of my clients.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
So I'm so glad.
It always makes me happy toknow it's out there being
helpful to people.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, it really is.
I'm over here in Idaho, sosimilar a little bit population,
sometimes different, yeah,flavor, but working with purity,
culture and shame and yeah itjust doesn't seem to be going
away anytime soon you've beendoing all you can.
A lot of us have, but yeah,exactly, a lot of us have, but

(03:24):
yeah exactly A lot of us have.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
I was um presenting on it, so the do you know who
star is this society for sexualtraining and research?
Yeah, yeah, so I was out in NewYork weekend before last uh, uh
, the discussant on a case thatwas, um, basically, uh,

(03:50):
religious sexual shame andtrauma it's somebody presenting
with pelvic pain disorders, PCOSand all kinds of things, and
the person who presented thecase, um, they used psilocybin
in the treatment protocol, umand um, and so then basically I

(04:11):
was asked to be basically to,because I, yeah, both places
look at that and say, would I doI agree with the way he did it
or what I do, somethingdifferent or whatever.
So I was actually talking aboutyour work when I was discussing
it, cause I said I really feltlike this was important that we
get clear about the consensual,non-consent stuff that so often

(04:36):
is happening in our heterosexualcouples, whether they come from
religious backgrounds or not.
We know that it's superprevalent and it's really not
been looked at.
You know sort of well enough yetand I know one person who just
recently got her PhD and she waslooking at what creates sexual

(04:58):
agency in midlife women and does, if you, if you are high in
sexual agency, does that meanyou have?
Or if you're high in justgeneral agency and empowerment,
does that mean you're also highin sexual agency and empowerment
?
And the answer was no.
And if you're, if you improvepeople's sexual agency, does

(05:22):
that improve their overallagency?
And basically the answer is yes.
And so sexual agency, which isreally kind of, I think also
what you're getting at there, isreally important and it's been
so overlooked and we have huge,huge populations of women in
particular that just don't evenhave any sense of understanding

(05:45):
about that at all, like it'sjust over here and they're
acting it out, but they don'tthey're they're not connected to
it or aware of it.
So I think it's reallyimportant work.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
So tell me, watch that video about my research,
which is kind of, you know,maybe new, maybe not, but what?
What would you describe withyour clinical lens in
relationships and sexuality?
What do you see?
Is the problem there?
What is happening there?
How would you say with yourlens what that is, these

(06:17):
outcomes of consenting tounwanted sex?

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Well, I think it's embedded in a huge historical
epigenetic story that can.
It's very much informed bypatriarchy.
It can go all the way, you know, depending on how you think
about it.
It can go all the way back tothe formation of the Christian
church, you know.
That, then, has influencedAmerica through and through,

(06:49):
through and through.
Um, that basically sayssexuality is something that men
have and it's for men, and umit's how you keep men happy and
you keep them from acting out.
Um, it's how you are a goodwife.
And this is very much itaffects, I think, all people who
identify as being women andwere born women at birth and
really are sort of, you know,just see themselves as sort of

(07:13):
cis female, even if they areclear they're still, they've
been raised in the culture as a,you know, a CIS woman.
So they're going to absorb this.
But I think it especiallypunctuates for women that are
CIS, het and straight you know,they're CIS het they're straight
and and so they're more apt totake the messages hook line and

(07:39):
sinker and not think about them,not examine them.
A queer woman is more likely toexamine heterosexual or you
know normative ideas that areput out there and say, well,
that doesn't really apply to meor I don't like that or that
doesn't make sense.
There's more of a invitation tobe critical of culture.
Right, but inside the cishetworld, especially for women,

(08:02):
there's not very much.
The cishet world, especiallyfor women, there's not very much
.
I think general critiquing ofwhat you're taught depending on
and I think authoritarian homeshave a lot to do with that as
well.
If you're raised inauthoritarian home, that is all
about obeying and you can't know.
Other people know you need tofollow them.

(08:22):
That's how you are a good girl,a good boy.
That's how you are a worthyperson.
You are going to be much lesslikely to be a critical thinker
because you were taught you'renot to be trusted.
Other people are to be trusted.
You can't know.
They know they know what's bestfor you Really low internal

(08:45):
control all external.
All external and that's what'svalued, is an external control
right.
And so it even reduces anynatural inclination to question,
unless they've been given abeautiful subversive, unless

(09:07):
they've been given a beautifulsubversive, rebellious little
spirit that does ask questionsthat some kiddos do.
But a lot of people are likethat's just too frightening, I
could stand to lose too muchright, lose safety, lose
protection, lose care, losewhatever, and so they don't.
And we've seen that grow in theUnited States over the last 45
years as we had a real dramaticturn when the religious right

(09:29):
and moral majority kind of tookover the real, the Republican
voting block, and it didn'tmatter if you were in a
religious home or not, this wasreligious.
Education was now paid for bythe public, by the government.
Right, we had absence, onlyeducation.
It was religious.
It was 80% medically inaccurate.
It went out to the country Atthe same time that we withheld

(09:56):
funding for sexual research.
So we began to grow two things.
We began to grow two things.
One was a vacuum of actualknowledge of emotional health,
relational health, sexual health, body awareness, right, even

(10:18):
the awareness of whatexploitation is.
That was all taken away, right.
Well, at the same time, thiswhole guise of family values was
a withdrawal or a removal ofregulations on banks and a

(10:46):
removal of regulations on theFCC, the Federal Communication,
or the FCC, the FederalCommunication Commission.
So anything that we producethat could go out on media.
We took away the protectionsfor the public that had been
there prior to 1985.
We removed them in 1984, Ibelieve, and then, basically, if

(11:11):
you were a media company, whichat that point was movies and TV
primarily, and then it grewinto music, videos, video games,
the internet, social media, soit grew into those things, all
of those companies could dowhatever was going to make their

(11:31):
stockholders money.
That year there were noregulations.
You could say whatever youwanted.
It could be misinformation, itcould be out and out lies, it
could be made up, it could bewhatever was going to capture
your audience and make yourstockholders money, because that
was the new value in Americanpublic life.

(11:55):
It was making money forcorporations and wealthy people
wealthy men primarily and webegan to reduce their taxes
taxes on corporations and taxeson the wealthy.
This began in 1980 with Reaganand it has continued every year
since.
We've never rolled back any ofthose laws at all, even though

(12:20):
since as early as 1982 and everyyear almost since there have
been requests by and you name itCongress, most organizations
whatever that are affected byviolence against women.
They have requested that wepass laws to protect against
violence against women, and wehave yet to pass any laws to

(12:43):
protect women, and so we havebeen growing what we see now
across the United States.
We grew the homeschoolingmovement.
We grew the homeschooling legaldefense fund, which was a
nonprofit that then wouldprotect anybody who had a
lawsuit, any family that had alawsuit brought against them
about what was happening at hometo their children, the

(13:06):
homeschooling arena.
So if anybody reported anything, the legal defense fund stepped
in and fought it all the way tothe Supreme court.
So to this day, there are norules on what you do with your
children when you homeschoolthem.
Okay, so authoritarianism grewin the United States beginning
in 1980 and 85, or you know, andhas been growing in many ways

(13:31):
since then, even though we alsohave very progressive new ideas
and research coming out, and sothose people who are learned,
who did not grow up in thosehomes, who have some ability and
permission to ask questions,are learning a whole lot of
things.
So we have this huge divide inour country between people who
are aware of shifts and changesand cultural, you know, things

(13:55):
going on and just recognizingthat we've had levels of
diversity forever and we've, youknow, had all kinds of things
forever and we're now talkingabout it.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
This hasn't creeped up on us in the last couple of
years, right, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
No, it's been.
It's been growing, but it justmeans we have some, I think,
much more extreme kinds of stuffgoing on.
So we have so many people thatno less feel less confident to
express themselves or stand upfor themselves or stand up for
their kids.
They are grabbing onto anymisinformation that gets their

(14:33):
amygdala going, gets their fearcenters going.
They're just scared.
They're scared to death.
But then meanwhile theirkiddo's going to a public school
and comes home and they're 10and they say gosh, you know what
?
I think I figured out that I'mum, non-binary and pansexual,

(14:56):
and their parents are losing itbecause they have no idea what
that means.
But it sounds like the devil.
It's very scary to them, right?
So it's.
It's to me it's.
It's been a growth of twodifferent areas, of a dearth of
information, while at the sametime, this authoritarian, I'm
scared to death.

(15:16):
I have to hang on to what otherpeople say without the
realization that other peopleare saying that so they make
more money for theirstockholders, not because it's
true, they're being used,they're being exploited, right,
right, right, right.
They are a pawn in theirmoney-making scheme.
You know, and we could betalking about, you know,

(15:39):
whatever, you know, jeff Bezosnow owning the, you know
Washington Post, or Elon Muskwith X, or you know Murdoch with
the New York Times.
Whatever I mean, these peoplehas been about them making money
and not money so they can haveinfluence in the United States.
Money so they can haveinfluence globally.

(16:03):
They don't care about theUnited States, they're dealing
on the global scale.
We're going to find ourselvesin a heap of trouble in no time
because the people that arerunning the country have a
global perspective they don'tcare about, even though they say
certain things they don'tultimately care.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
I love this perspective of you.
Know.
I'm like what lens are youlooking at through this super
super systems lens, right, ofgoing all the way back to
authoritarianism as it rose andthe education as it fell at the
same time, right?
And I had talked to one personabout my work and they were like
I just can't believe in 2024that women are consenting to sex

(16:47):
they don't want.
That has to be.
And you're saying I can see whyit's happening.
It was back in the 80s, therise of that and the fall of
that, and here we are in 2024.
Yeah, oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Oh, absolutely.
And I think it's important forus as practitioners or educators
or wherever we are, tounderstand the historical
context, partially so we canhave some compassion for these
people, you know, but also so wecan see that if we don't look

(17:22):
at it from a historical lens,we're going to be a player in it
too, right, you know.
So I think we have aresponsibility to see it Like.
Most people don't know that theSouthern Baptist Church, which
is the largest force of theevangelical movement in the US,

(17:42):
and has been forever was pro Roev Wade from 74 to 79.
I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
This is absolutely documented.
I could send you stuff.
It's absolutely documented andthe church was actually the sort
of church in the US theSouthern Baptist Church and
those affiliated was actuallypretty anti-political up until
1980.
They were very much likepolitics makes us dirty.

(18:13):
We want people to follow Jesus,yeah, and and so the focus then
was it John Bircher.
Was what did the start of theJohn Bircher society had gotten
started in the late 50s and ithad been growing, but it was
around communism and this kindof a thing.
It wasn't related to thechurches.
What it was was the churcheshad been segregationists, in

(18:38):
other words, they supported thereligious colleges continuing to
be segregated and when thatbecame absolutely illegal, there
was no federal funding that wasgoing to come anymore.
This was 1979.
Carter, who was the presidentat the time, was really, and
still is, the only evangelicalpresident we've ever had, and he
actually was very much for howdo we take care of the poor and

(19:00):
how do we do these things.
But he could not be manipulatedby those that wanted a
capitalist agenda only, and sothey found Reagan, who was
willing to be the puppet to usefor the very first time God
language.
In his speeches he said Godbless America.
It had never been done beforebecause there'd been a
separation of church and stateprior to that.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
And then most people would not know that.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
I know, right.
And then again it's alldocumented Like I've got books,
I've got you know, research, thewhole thing, yeah, and.
And then he began supportingthis capitalist agenda behind
the guys of family valuesbecause they went after that
voting block.
They needed that voting blockin order to pursue this agenda.

(19:48):
And so there literally was ameeting in 1979.
Where they were like we have tocome up with a different issue
than segregation to rally thevoters.
And it was at that meeting thisis well documented that they
chose abortion as the issue.
And then they got somepoliticians on top of Jerry
Falwell and Dobson and someothers to just start putting it

(20:11):
out there into the ether.
And so for the first time, theybegan to get the churches was
Jerry Falwell was a huge pieceof this the churches to get
behind the political thing thatwas going on.
And this was all aboutprotecting America, protecting
families, protecting.
And what happened that worked totheir advantage was there was

(20:36):
an economic downturn in 1980,second wave feminism, so the
women getting birth control pillin the sixties and then
beginning to say I don't wantchildren now, I want to pursue a
career, I want to have some ofmy own choices, right All of
these things that happened withwith reproductive rights, and
then there were civil rightsgoing on, of course, with Martin

(20:58):
Luther King and all of that,which is all very important, and
psychedelics, and it juststarted to freak, you know, kind
of like we can use this, we'vegot to, we could scare the
public with this, and then AIDShit the East coast in 80 and the
West coast in 85.
So they used this veryvulnerable public to say the

(21:21):
whole United States is going tohell in a handbasket.
This is all because of you know, all of these things were
losing our center and they just,you know, did this whole thing
about family values, people notunderstanding that this had
everything to do with acapitalist agenda.
You know, and I don't know ifyou know who Frank Schaefer is,
but his father, francisSchaeffer, was in the middle of

(21:42):
this.
Frank is now 72.
When he was in his 20s he was afilmmaker.
He helped his father puttogether the film series on what
happened to the human race.
Did you ever hear about thatfilm series?
It was all about abortion andhow abortion was going to
basically end the human race.
It was incredibly frightening.

(22:04):
Abortion was going to basicallyend the human race.
It was incredibly frightening.
You could probably look up onYouTube Samantha Bee and then
Frank Schaefer, and you'll gettwo episodes of hers where he
she interviewed him and told usthe story of what happened in
that meeting and all of it youknow.
But Frank wrote a book calledSex, mom and God where he

(22:25):
chronicles the meetings he wasin and what politicians and
religious leaders were a part of, what meetings that passed,
what, what policies to lead usin this direction.
And I remember reading thatbook after I had seen the impact
of the peer of purity culture,right, but I didn't understand
how it happened or how we gotthere.

(22:45):
And I found his book and itexplained it all to me and and I
couldn't believe how likebrutally honest he was.
I kept expecting the pages toburst into into flames because
they were so like.
He named places in people, likereally powerful people, you
know still, and but it all itfilled in the blank.

(23:07):
For me it's like, oh well, wecouldn't, as the public know,
all this was going on, but hewas, he was there in it and then
he just he goes from 1978 to2008.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Those are the forces that allow the purity movement
of the eighties and nins to beso dramatic, so influential, so
accepted by the churches.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Exactly.
And so all of this is like thelast 45 years, right, but this
got built upon the and what hadbeen a patriarchy, that had been
women have these roles and menhave these roles and still
erased women's sexuality and allthat kind of thing.

(23:51):
But then we had the 60s and 70s, which was the beginning of
women having voice, thebeginning of women having choice
, the beginning of women sayingwait a minute, you know, my
sexuality matters.
You have to think about, likeKinsey's research on women, and
what he produced is what shutdown his research.
The public could handle theRockefeller foundation, which

(24:14):
supported his research, couldhandle what they found out about
men, not women, not handle whatthey found out about women,
right, but this was allhappening at that same early
time too.
So women were picking this upbecause this was published, you
know, start picking up, and theystarted having these women's
circles where they would talktogether about their sexuality,
and it was part of the nationalorganization of women that got

(24:36):
started and the equal rightsamendment that got started, you
know, in the late sixties andearly seventies and this was a
lot of things going.
But then it all got shut downand we have we have only gone
backwards.
We have not gone forward sincethat, since 1979.
And I think this affects me somuch or I get so kind of caught

(25:00):
up in this too because I grew upin a Swedish immigrant home
that was very body and sexpositive.
That's all I thought familieswere.
You know that you've talkedabout bodies like you talked
about recipes and brushing yourteeth and like everyone, like my
grandparents, all my aunts anduncles, my parents, you know
like they talked about thisstuff as just normal.
You know, and I didn't realizeuntil I was well into my

(25:24):
thirties like my family wasweird.
It was not that every familywas like mine.
Like I was in a very smallminority of families that got to
grow up believing that bodiesare bodies and bodies are good
and sexuality is what you haveand it's part of how we love and
bond with people and we takeresponsibility, and I mean just
stuff, you know.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
And then I was like I didn't realize it was like
Northern European values thatyou had kind of protected you
from the Puritan.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
No I didn't know, I didn't know and I, because I was
born in 1960, by 1980, I was 20.
Yeah, so, as I was involved inthe Jesus movement, but it was
kind of sex, drugs and rock androll and people saying I'm
coming off drugs and I I feel soloved and it was very different

(26:14):
than anything you see now and Ithought it was delightful.
And then, as the church beganto turn really legalistic in
1980 and kept going, I juststayed.
I was like I don't think Jesusis a part of that, I think
that's about something else andI just but I also didn't develop

(26:35):
a kind of because of my age, Ididn't really see what was
happening to families and toculture until about the year
2000.
And I was teaching sexuality ina graduate marriage and family
therapy program and I had my, mystudents write their sexual
autobiography, cause I'm likeyou're only as good as good as
therapists, as you know whatyour stories are, and this isn't

(26:57):
one that a lot of people know.
I want you to see it.
I want you to write it as anarrative, and then I want you
want you to see it.
I want you to write it as anarrative, and then I want you,
if you will to allow me to readit as a loving, empathic other
and give you feedback, maybe thefeedback you never got.
Like you are beautiful andnormal and healthy and I wish

(27:19):
somebody was there to hug youand tell you this when you were
five and eight and 10 and 12 andwhatever.
Whatever they say Right.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
So class was like the biggest group therapy session.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, and and I would have people say I was scared to
write this I heard about it mywhole grad school.
You know, hearing having youread and write out my paper was
the most nourishing thing I'veever had happen and that was the
most important paper I wrote inall the 300 papers that I wrote
in grad school.
Whatever you know, and I'm likethis because you're, you're

(27:52):
great, you know you're lovelyand wonderful and I'm so sorry
you didn't receive thosemessages as you were growing up,
right, but I didn't know what Iwas seeing initially in 2000,
when I would have, you know, 25year olds describing pelvic pain
or erectile dysfunction, orscared to death to go date

(28:13):
someone because they were afraidthey were going to hurt them
because they'd been told theywere an animal, or scared to go
out because they'd hurt that youknow men were animals and they
were just scared that they woulddo something wrong and they
would be marked.
And I'd like what happened?
Like tell me what happened toyou.
And I spent about three yearstrying to figure out, like
what's changed.
And that's when I startedlearning about what had been

(28:33):
happening in people's homes, intheir communities, in abstinence
education and in youth groupsand and I was mortified, like I
literally would cry throughreading these.
And so then I was like I needto start keeping research notes
on what I'm reading.
And then I got to start talkingabout this because I don't know
that anybody knows that we'vebeen.

(28:56):
Actually, if you think aboutsexual abuse, it as some adult
comes in at an age of a child'sdevelopment and then puts their
adult sexuality upon it andtakes away their child
development, takes away theirinnocence.
Basically this had beenhappening to children from the

(29:17):
moment they found their genitalsat 11 months old, and every
single time after that point,someone was there, slap their
hand, yell at them, tell themthey're gross, tell them God
can't love them, tell them allkinds of things that weren't
true when they were just beingbeautifully human little people

(29:37):
growing up.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
I'd never thought about like you're describing it
as sexual abuse without sexualcontact.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yes, absolutely.
It's a formation of mycuriosity and my ability to act
out my curiosity and somebody togo.
Yeah, that's your penis, it's afabulous part of you.
Let's finish diapering you.
Or, of course, you were curiousabout what your friend's body
looked like.
That's part of being five yearsold, but we're going to keep
our clothes on and keep playing,you know, like nobody.

(30:04):
Not only were they not givingthem the education that they
need in a non-shaming, justeducational way, they were
shaming them.
They were basically frighteningthem, which said to them
something about me.
Who I am is fundamentally bad,and it's happening from

(30:26):
pre-verbal, over and over andover and over again.
So cause from 11 months to whatthree or four kids don't have
the cognitive capacity to belike.
Oh yeah, I keep being told Ican go use the bedroom or my
bathroom and that's where Ishould go If I want to touch
myself, if somebody does the bed, you know in a loving way, but
they're not going to remember,start to get that until they're

(30:46):
three or four.
So do you think they stoppedtouching themselves?
No, of course they didn't,right.
And so we're talking aboutpre-verbal, and every time
they're quote unquote caught ineverything that scares their
parents around their sexualdevelopment or body development
or whatever, while they're notgetting things like body

(31:10):
autonomy and what's cassette andconsent and what's a misuse of
my power, how I treat mybrothers and sisters or people
who are younger, like none ofthese basic relational things
are being taught to them.
These basic relational thingsare being taught to them, but
what is being taught to them isthe misinformation that's coming
from the media that is nowfilling more and more of the

(31:34):
outlets in our life.
But that's all about makingmoney, but we don't sell it that
way, but that's what it's about.
And so we're telling kids andshowing kids all kinds of things
that aren't.
That not only are quote unquoteentertainment, but since we're
not giving them real knowledge,then they don't know how to

(31:57):
apply.
If they start applying theentertainment to their
relationships, theirrelationships are going to have
problems to their relationships.
Their relationships are goingto have problems, right?
So we have, you know, all kindsof messages about what men need
and women are responsible.
Men act out, women areresponsible.

(32:17):
That goes back to the formationof fourth century.
It goes all the way back rightwhen the early bishops who were
denying the body couldn't dothat.
They blamed the women right.
So we've been.
Couldn't do that, they blamedthe women, right.
So we've been doing this.
We've been blaming the victimforever, and so this has
continued.
And we have we don't haveenough places where we examine.
Does that make sense?

(32:38):
Yeah, like we don't even askfathers of daughters how do you
want your daughter to be?

Speaker 1 (32:47):
treated by other men.
How did you treat other men?
You did like this.
You said something that kind ofdid a flip, as I which I
appreciate because I don't wantto be in this silo and been
thinking about, you know, women,autonomy and assertiveness and
sexual communication skills andthen you said but are we talking
about the misuse of power?
Are we talking to the men?
Are we talking?
And I wasuse of power, are wetalking to the men, are we
talking?
And I was like, oh, that's theother side of the coin, you know

(33:08):
is oh, absolutely yeah, likeexamining the use of power, yeah
, exactly, like you know, I andI think because I was immersed
in this, it was.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
it was a a very present idea as I was raising my
kids, so I taught in a programand we had a value statement
that was.
We called it the Orca stanceopenness, respect, curiosity and
accountability to my power thatI have the power to hurt people
.
And I have some places where Iown more power and I have to be
accountable to that power.

(33:42):
So this was a part of how wetalked all the time and I can
remember my.
My kids are five years apartand I can remember my son maybe
being nine and my daughter likefour, and I could hear my son
cause they shared a room.
I could hear my son say howabout I give you a lollipop and
you clean the room?

Speaker 1 (34:04):
And I I little exploitation there Sure.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Right, we are hardwired to get what we want.
That's human, so it's not bad.
It's just my job to help himlearn, right?
So I said, hey, buddy.
I said you know, would thatfeel fair to you If she was nine
and you were five or four?
And she said that to you andhe's like no.

(34:27):
And I said, okay, so what?
That is right there, when youcan do something that your
sister will go along with causeshe's younger and cause she
thinks you walk on water.
But it's not right, it's notfair.
That's what we call an abuse ofyour power.
You're taking the power thatyou have and you're using it to
benefit you but to hurt somebodyelse.

(34:49):
And I said that is absolutelynever okay in our family, ever,
because it doesn't feel good andwe have a responsibility to act
in a way that upholds otherpeople, not hurts them.
Does that make sense, right?
And so that kind ofconversation happened lots of
times around the place.
And I would say I have aresponsibility to my power.

(35:11):
I'm a mom.
If ever I do something thatfeels like it benefits me but
it's totally hurtful to you, weneed to talk about it because I
might be misusing my power.
Right when he was 15 or 16, hewas going to a youth group at a
time at a local progressivechurch that we had in our

(35:32):
community, and I picked him upfrom youth group one night and
he says to me oh, mom boy, I'mglad you weren't there tonight.
And I'm like why?
And he goes, there was thislady and she came to talk to us
about sex and I'm like oh really.
So tell me what happened.
Of course I'm always interested.
And he goes, she said and hegoes, and I'm not kidding you.

(35:54):
She said in front of all of usgirls and she goes like this
Don't you let a boy kiss you toolong, but it's your job to stop
them because they might not beable to handle it.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
And I said, oh, we're going to give everyone a pass
as they abuse their power, butthe girls have to be the ones
that stop it.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
He goes, but, mom, you'd be proud of me.
I raised my hand and then Ithought, oh Lord, because he was
16, you know, he thought heruled the world.
And I said what happened and hesaid well, she called on me and
I said so do you mean to tellme and all the boys in here and

(36:37):
all the girls in here that girlsare responsible for what we do
as boys?
Because, I'm sorry, that is notthe way that I have been raised
and I'm like oh wow I said whatdid she do?
He said she got really, reallyquiet.
And I said, honey, that isright, you know that I will

(36:58):
always hold you 100% responsiblefor everything you choose to
say and everything you choose todo, because you're capable of
being responsible to yourselfright.
And to your power and to theinfluence that you have, you
know.
And so this ongoingconversation about power was
important.

(37:18):
He was a white, good looking,blonde haired, blue eyed boy,
right, and so I knew themessages he was going to get.
I wanted him to be aware ofpower abuse from the beginning,
right of time, and and sosometimes our conversations are

(37:39):
a little gendered, you know alittle bit, and but I in my
family, because he was theoldest, he needed it.
I knew he needed it fromcultural, a cultural perspective
and and otherwise.
And then also exposing the,exposing a lot of the
patriarchal messages that reallyjust end up hurting people, you
know.

(38:00):
So we talked a lot about whatare the assumed messages out
there, and so when he looked atporn, I said we got to talk
about this, not because there'sanything wrong with your
curiosity or whatever I says,but I just want you to know that
penises all don't look likethat and vulvas don't all look
like that.
Or look like that it would worklike that, right, and because

(38:26):
you are somebody that's going tosomeday want a really good
relationship with somebody thatyou really love, and I want you
to know that, just as we don'ttake advantage of people inside
our family, you're not going towant a relationship that takes
advantage or exploit somebody orhumiliate somebody.
And yet there'll be a lot ofthat in straight porn and a lot

(38:47):
of your friends are going to beall about, you know, tapping
that, getting some all as ifshe's an object, and you're not
going to want anybody you loveor any of the women in your life
to be thought of that way.
I need you to represent thatout in the world and you don't
have to do it in a way that getsyou ostracized.
But please don't go along,don't go.

(39:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't do that.
Just get quiet.
You know, act the way that youwant to feel good about later in
your life.
You're writing your own sexualnarrative.
I need you to feel good aboutit because it's a wonderful part
of you.
But if you start doing it in away that's hurtful to other
people, you're not going to feelgood about it.

(39:31):
Then you're not feel good aboutyou.
That's important.
So a lot of the conversationsthat we need to be having in
order for women to see wherethey begin and end and others
begin and end what they have theright to, you know, and the
understanding that connectionand pleasure, the desire for

(39:52):
connection and pleasure, ishuman.
We just go about it in differentways, you know.
Like all of that, it's not aboy thing or a girl thing, it's
a human thing, right?
All of that has to beexplicitly taught and modeled,
ideally for kids as they grow,if they're going to have some of
these skills later, or elsethey have to go do some you know

(40:15):
, therapy or something to helpget clear about it, you know, so
that they can develop a voicefor themselves, you know.
So I think a lot of women don'tunderstand how they're being
consensual for something theyactually really don't want,
because nobody's ever spent thetime to help break it down for

(40:36):
them.
You know, and now they findthemselves in a relationship and
they're afraid that if I gotclean on what's actually
happening, I think my partnerwould leave.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
And so there's financial implications.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
There's all kinds of implications.
Right, she's blamed, right, Imean, if he has an affair, we
still think, oh well, she mustnot have been doing something.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yeah, it becomes a coping mechanism for social
safety.
You know of.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Exactly, exactly, so it's, it's, it's a, a.
That's why I just think thatthe conversation about
consensual non-consent is suchan important conversation to be
having, um, but there's a lot ofdeconstruction to do around it

(41:29):
for people um but yeah, I Iwould say it's completely
understandable how we're here.
This is what we've beensupporting as a culture forever,
but especially the last 45years.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
And, would you say, especially in the evangelical or
maybe a greater Christiancommunity.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
I would say no, I wouldn't.
I would say, yes, that's beentrue there, but it's also been
true in the places that weremore Bible-built, less urban

(42:09):
right less urban right.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
That's kind of the question that's come up from the
homogeneous sample that I had.
Is it's like?
Is this an American problem?
Is this a religious problem?
Is this a?
You know what kind of cause thedemographics were so similar
that it was?
You know white women in theWestern United States who were
middle class, middle age andlargely Christianian, you know,
and so you know it's part oftrying to figure that out is

(42:37):
like it is.
Is this an american problem?
Is this a white problem?
Is this a christian problem?

Speaker 2 (42:44):
you know, and your answer is your thoughts I think
it's yes and yes, and it'sbroader than that, because there
are communities that were more,I think, more affected by

(43:05):
abstinence, education and thatcontinuing in their state, and
so, whether their family itselfis religious or not, they were
still getting it, it was stillaround them.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
So geography at play, based on the politics of that
rural community around them.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yes, yes, yes yes, yes, yeah, and I know from
supervising people that are inreally conservative states who
are trying to serve theunderserved in those communities
, um, whether it's sexualminorities or others, and it's,

(43:47):
it's thick, it's, it's real,like they feel, feel and they
are aware of an amount of riskand threat because there are
laws that have been passed rightthat limit choices right, yeah
for sure.
Basically tell them who they canserve and who they can't serve
and, um, they could lose theirlicense if they serve a trans

(44:10):
family or whatever you know.
I mean like and again, we'remaking this is government, this
is not religious, but it isreligious yeah, does that make
sense?

Speaker 1 (44:21):
it totally does yeah yeah, that's a super interesting
perspective and I think your,you know your book sex god in
the conservative church does alot for you know that third
question of what are messages inthe evangelical or christian
world that maybe we could usepositively or for prevention of

(44:44):
this?

Speaker 2 (44:44):
and you know, I think that's why I appreciate most
about that book of yours isfiguring out where the messages
are, where the the doctrine is,where that can spin this and
create more positivity, lessnegativity and shame and right,
like a lot of people again,because they've been listening

(45:05):
to politicians and pastorswho've been listening to
politicians, you know they can'tsee how far maybe they've swung
away from the core values oftheir faith, right, and so they
don't.
They don't often really knowhow much they've been influenced

(45:26):
kind of kind of away from youknow, just helpful
interpretations or yeah, yeah.
Or even like asking like was,was?
Was Jesus against the body andsexuality?
Was he afraid of it?
Was?
Did he see it as dangerous?

(45:46):
Like what do we know?
You know?
And even asking that question,which was you know, one of the
questions I looked at, I lookedat in the book, but I also said
on the Abrahamic line has thereever been sex positivity?
And there was so much that wasthere that was never brought
forward.
But when you do research on thedevelopment of the Christian
church in those early centuries,you can see that patriarchy

(46:09):
actually the fall of the RomanEmpire, patriarchy was
influencing the fall of theRoman empire.
Patriarchy was influencing theformation of the Christian
church more than the coretenants that are like in the
gospels or whatever.
And so a lot of time again,this is kind of critical
thinking.
I really want people to hold onto what, for them, feels most

(46:29):
beautiful and affirming of theirhumanity and how loved they are
by God or however they think ofit.
You know, like you were, youknow perfectly made the way you
are, you are meant to be youright, some of those core things
.
But but people have to begin tothink critically to be like

(46:53):
well, how has the church strayedfrom that?
And the push to stray has beenone that's been about again
keeping them loyal to the votingblock to support the capitalist
agenda spinning out of controlat this point yeah you know,

(47:18):
yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
So I don't think I I thought of the role of politics
in christianity and the puritymovement.
That got.
I don't think I'd put that alltogether or looked that far back
or deep, and so I really, Imean I now I'm like, oh yeah, I
missed that part.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Sure, and it's easy to miss too, but I think once
you kind of wake up to it atleast my experience has been,
this has been true for me hasbeen now I feel like I see
things more clearly and I'm somuch more compassionate.
I do understand.
I do understand why people areso frightened and I do

(47:57):
understand if you take thingshook, line and sinker, you're
going to be scared.
You know, seeing things incontext and patriarchy, which
has really been about power andcontrol who has the power?
They'll then have the control.
They'll be able to call theshots whatever they can now say

(48:20):
whatever they want to.
That's been the guidingprinciple shaping our
institutions and our government,and not just ours, but others
around the world right.
And it's also if we imaginechanging that.
It creates a lot of fear for alot of people.
You know like could we have amore egalitarian society?

(48:44):
Yeah, you know, could we?
I was listening one time to ohgosh, I'm blanking on her name.
I'm to oh gosh, I'm blanking onher name to an interview with
Ruby Sales and she's a.

(49:13):
Black spiritual activist who'sprobably 80 now and grew up in
the gospel, the black gospelchurch, and she was describing
it and she said the childrenwere as important as the adults.
They ran around all Sundaymorning.
If they had an idea, they cameup and they said it.
They led us in song and it wasthis beautiful picture of what

(49:34):
an egalitarian, communityreligious setting could look
like, you know, with everybodyin it together.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
And without the authoritarianism, without that
patriarchy yeah, not patriarchal.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
It was.
Everybody has value.
You know, you're fearfully andwonderfully made.
I'm fearfully and wonderfullymade.
I'm fearfully and wonderfullymade.
You go say your thing, and theymight be there all day long.
It just was this beautifulpicture of oh, that's what it
looks like when there isn'thierarchy.
And if you believe in a faithwhere there isn't a hierarchy

(50:10):
necessarily like that, where youare valuable and every other
human is equally as valuable,but not more and not less
valuable, then you might shapethe gathering and the creation
of organizations differently.
We have a lot of people thatare afraid of that, and it
serves in the heterosexual world, it serves men that women are

(50:34):
subservient and don't have voiceand don't have choice, and so
then they take that into thebedroom.
And this is what makes me sosad, I think, is that there's so
many men in these types ofrelationships who aren't getting
their wife when they're sexual.
She's not behind her eyes, shedoesn't want to be there, but

(50:58):
she doesn't have voice and hecan feel it and it doesn't feel
good to him.
Men so often say I don't likeit, I just don't know what else
to do.
And I'm like can you trust meenough to help you, help her and
help her to actually belistened to.

(51:21):
Sexuality, good sex, as anytime you both show up to each
other and you want it to beconnecting and fun and

(51:43):
pleasurable for both of you.
And you know it could lookdifferent than it ever looked
before.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
Right, right, and you're willing to go for it.
You're answering those last twoquestions.
I totally want to.
Yeah, you're.
You're answering those, thoselast two questions.
I totally want to be mindful ofyour time, but those last two
questions of you know if, if, ifthis couple lands on your couch
, are you diagnosing her with adesire disorder or are you
looking at this completelydifferently and what are you
going to do with them?

Speaker 2 (52:08):
you know, I would say , obviously you have desire
discrepancies.
But then I go into a thingwhere I say there's a difference
in my book between sex drive,that's your desire to move
through your arousal cycle.
Men and women, all people oftennot all people, but most people

(52:29):
have this feeling Like I wantto move through my arousal cycle
.
It has to do with hormones morethan anything and it really has
had to do with keeping ourspecies alive Right, and in my
book you have two hands to dealwith that.
It is never your partner'sresponsibility to take you

(52:50):
through your arousal cycle ifthey don't want to participate
in that way.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
How do you start to get the hierarchy evened out,
right?
Well, what?

Speaker 2 (53:00):
I want them to see that drive is different than
desire.
And when I talk about sexualdesire, what I'm talking about
is and I'll say this directlyyou want intimacy with her.
This directly you want intimacywith her, you want her to be
there.
You want her to want you towant to be there.

(53:20):
You want to feel that heat andfire and desire in her Right.
And he's like, yes, I haven'tfelt it in forever and it's like
and you want to feel like youcan even have it safely and no
one's going to hurt you or takeadvantage or exploit you or make
you do something you don't wantto do.
She's like, yeah, that's why Idon't want to do it ever.
Okay, so let's let's go to thatplace where you want to be seen

(53:46):
, known, loved and accepted byyour partner and you want to be
seen known, loved and acceptedby your partner.
That's intimacy.
We have a human desire forintimacy and our hands are never
going to get us there Together,as a couple.
We can get there, but it takesa lot of different kinds of

(54:07):
skills and we did not give themto you as a culture.
It is our fault.
We set you up for thistransactional sexual life, but
we can here's the good news wecan teach you to have this with
each other, and when you do,your sex life is going to become
like a banquet.
So, rather than having Cheeriosfor breakfast, lunch and dinner

(54:29):
, you're going to be like no,you know what I feel like?
I feel like Thai food.
Thai food sounds good to you.
You know you're going to have avery different kind of sexual
life, cause it's all going togood.
Sex is going to be aboutconnection and pleasure and fun.
It's not going to be about thisor that behavior.
You guys are going to decidetogether and it's going to
change when one of you is sickand as you get older and because

(54:53):
it's meant to sexualityaccording to the Torah you know,
ancient literature is meant tobond you through your life cycle
, through your whole life.
It's touch that makes you feelconnected to the person, that
you're bonded to.
You know, and that's what it'sabout.
And that's what it's about andthat's what it's actually always

(55:14):
really kind of been about.
You know, as far as in in thecontext of committed
relationships, it's been aboutcult, learning how to cultivate
that with each other, and youcan do that and it's really fun
to do with couples.
It's super fun to do.
But in that process of doingthat they end up confronting a
lot of the assumptions.

(55:35):
And it's really fun to do withcouples it's super fun to do.
But in that process of doingthat they end up confronting a
lot of the assumptions that theywere given growing up and they
have all a lot of feelings about.
They feel anger, they feelbetrayed, they feel like you
know, and they start to separateout patriarchy and church
doctrine that was made tobenefit men in power from what

(55:55):
feels right in their heart.
You know what feels loving,what feels just, you know feels,
you know all that and theystart to figure that out.
And people are.
I believe people are just asspiritually oriented now as
always in my life, but they are.
A lot of people are separatingout patriarchy and what's

(56:20):
benefited certain people fromtheir core tenants of their
faith or what they believe isright and human and nourishing
and helps them and helps themdeal with existential questions.
Right.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
This was fantastic.
I appreciate it so much.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
I've really taken you everywhere and I hope that
you'll be able to.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
I love it.
I will.
I've got transcripts turned onso I'll find your words that I'm
just absorbing it and listening.
And did you?
Do you have any like closingthoughts, like op-ed kind of
commentary thoughts about thisnew idea?
Maybe it's not a new idea, it'smaybe a new term for an old
idea of hey, there might be somebad things to happen if we

(57:04):
consent to unwanted sex over along period of time.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
I think that even that conversation consenting to
unwanted sex and looking at theimpact of that even that is an
intervention okay, even namingthis new idea, aiming the new
idea is an intervention.

(57:29):
Well, I thought my mom, you know, like this, I've heard these
things, you know, my mom, youknow, like this, I've heard
these things, you know, my momtold me that this is what it was
, that I was just going to needto say yes, right, like the idea
that I have the right tosomething different is I've
never even thought of thatbefore.

(57:50):
Yeah, I've never even thoughtof that before.
Yeah, but tell me about.
Are there places within you,even if they're quiet places,
that are just resentful that youwere told you had to do that
and that you have been any place?
And usually they're like yes,it's there.
Like, do you think I'm going tothrow out something crazy?

(58:13):
Like if we imagine that everyhuman has value and so you are
just as valuable as any otherhuman, including men, and that
we are meant to know love, liketo be seen, known, loved and
accepted by our in ourpartnerships, by our dearest
friends, by our family members,right, if we just took that as

(58:37):
an assumption, do you think thatyou were meant to experience
something that includes yourwhole body, your heart, your
mind, your spirituality, yoursexuality?
You're all there in the sexualact Do you think you were meant
to experience in a way thatdoesn't feel respectful to you,
kind to you, that cares aboutthe fact that you don't feel

(59:01):
like it.
Like, and you know.
So they begin to ask questionslike like do you want this for
your daughters?
Do you want this for your sons?
You know they can often gothere, right, I know?

Speaker 1 (59:13):
really quick.
They're like not for mydaughter, Really quick.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Both men and women can go there really quick, and
so you kind of are using that,it's like.
So what I'm working with hereis that I believe when
something's a truth, it worksfor all people in all time.
So if it's not okay with yourkids, it's not okay for you,
it's not okay for your husband.
What would be true for allpeople?

(59:40):
What would be true for yourbest friend, for your kiddos,
right?
Let's talk about that, right?
And then let's ask ourselveswho's been benefiting from the
idea that men get and women haveto put up with?
What systems have beenbenefiting from the idea that
men get and women have to put upwith?
What systems have beenbenefiting from that?
Let's talk about that Becauseit's been surviving, because

(01:00:00):
somebody's been wanting it.
Who's been wanting it, you know?
And so we get into kind ofpulling things apart a little
bit so that they can be reallyclear with what is right for
them, what is true in theirheart for themselves and for
their kids, and for theirculture and their neighborhood
and whatever.
You know, like they can startto be like oh, this is what

(01:00:23):
feels most respectful to me orkind to me, or loving to me, or
whatever.
Okay, let's work with that,because you deserve that, I
believe.
When you came into the world,just like when your kiddos came
into the world or your niecesand nephews, you were and are
just as precious and deserve tobe seen, known, loved and

(01:00:45):
accepted.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
And somewhere, through politics and religion,
that message sounds superChristian and maybe not very
loud today.
Right that you deserve to beseen, loved, known and accepted
for who you are Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Yeah, it's gotten really lost and I think it.
I mean, obviously this isyou've probably picked this up I
think it's because it gotpolluted by money power more
polluted.
I mean it's been.
I mean if you go back inhistory you can see it in the
Roman empire, which shaped thedevelopment of their early
church.
I mean it's been there allalong patriarchy, but it it

(01:01:26):
pollutes or attempts to pollutelove and justice and I think
it's in the context of love andjustice that we thrive, you know
, as people, and it's what Iwant for my children and my
grandchildren, and you know, andmy neighbors and, and we live
better together when there'slove and justice.

(01:01:49):
When I take, when I payattention to my effect on you
and you pay attention to youreffect on me, that we have an
ecology of a relationship.
Right as opposed to I'm anindividual, it's my rights, my
rights, trump, your rights.
That is unsustainable, thatcreates wars, that does not

(01:02:10):
create bonded relationships,that creates every couple that
walks into our office is havinga mind right, wrong, right
argument.
We don't, we don't teach peoplethe ecology of relationship,
the ecology of my relationshipto the earth, to my neighbors to
my family, to my neighbors tomy family.

(01:02:32):
to my kids we teach capitalismand production, and that that's
what makes you valuable.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Yeah, and that produces commodity and
transaction which is not funsexually.
Sex is a commodity and sex istransaction.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
No, no, and I have often wondered is that why we're
seeing kind of a drop in?
And I have often wondered isthat why we're seeing kind of a
drop in in sort of sexualsatisfaction, sexual lives of a
lot of our Gen Xers and Gen Ys,you know?
Because they're just they'retired of the BS, they're not
going to put up with things, butthey don't know how to make it
better.
So they just are saying no, Idon't want that you know, yeah,

(01:03:12):
but when they go looking foranswers there's such a dearth.
I mean, it's there, you can findit in books and stuff.
It's there, and certainly wehave more and more podcasts now,
which is nice, but it's I, I.
My fantasy is that we starttrying to change the legacy with

(01:03:32):
children, so that kids grow upseeing this in themselves and
seeing it in each other andcultivating it in their
communities, Because it's goingto change everything If we just
provide comprehensive sexeducation, relationship
education.
You know sex education andemotional intelligence, you know

(01:03:54):
these kinds of things.
If we just, like the NorthernEuropean countries do, we would
change our culture, we wouldchange our politics.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Maybe in a generation .
We started now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Which you know, is how thatsecond book how shameless came
along.
You know, and and I havehandouts for doctors and
teachers and therapists andclergy to hand to people.
You know, you and I havehandouts for doctors and
teachers and therapists andclergy to hand to people.
You know, you've got atwo-year-old here, you've got an
eight-year-old here.
You know, I would, just becauseI know that that's the fastest
way to get it changed.
People have good relationships,you know.

(01:04:27):
So there's a you've probablyheard of it but the Harvard um,
I think it's an 85 year studythat they've been doing on
happiness.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Yes, the happiness lab.
It's all about relationships,and yet that's what we least
invest in, and as a culture my14 year old came home yesterday
and said did you know the peoplewho lived the longest most
satisfied lives, you know?
And she was so excited about itto learn and and um, she's very
relational anyway.
But, um, I satisfied lives, youknow, and she was so excited
about it to learn, and, andshe's very relational anyway.
But I was like, oh, I'm so gladthey're teaching you this.

(01:04:58):
You know, I'm never quite surewhat's getting cut and what's
getting funded, right, I gotthat message.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Yeah, yeah, Yay for that teacher for bringing that
up and then saying, well, so howdo we do that?
You know like how to?
How do we live relationallysuccessfully?
What are the skills I have tohave?
You have to have, you know.
Yeah, let's do that Because,yeah, I think we could, we could
flip things and I was like,okay, let's do that.

(01:05:27):
And then let's let's get reallyserious about the fact that we
want to end unwanted pregnancies, because we could end it today
If we wanted it.
We end it today If every personwith a penis that plans to
stick that in a vagina promises,from this moment forward, they

(01:05:50):
will either have it covered orthey will get a vasectomy.
Now we have no more unwantedpregnancies.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
And that that shift has to.
We have to be able to in ourmind, to realign the authority
of whose job is what and, formany people, that idea of there
being male responsibility in anunwanted pregnancy.
It's just like never even there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Yeah, and it's because, as a culture, again,
patriarchy that's what wesupport, right?
There's a great book calledEjaculate Responsibly and it
grew out of a mom blog and it's28 reasons why that makes sense.
Because they're always knowwhen they're fertile.
Their contraceptions they canget on the counter at any

(01:06:37):
grocery store.
They don't have to see a doctor, it doesn't cost anything.
You know, there are 28 reasonswhy if we really wanted to stop
it, we could stop it today.
That doesn't mean wenecessarily are stopping, um,
you know, like needing to end apregnancy that is going to cost
somebody their life, or it's atopic or whatever, we're going

(01:06:58):
to still have to deal with that.
That's fine, but that's such asmall percentage, right?
And if we really, as a country,cared about this, it would not
be.
We wouldn't be putting it onwomen, we'd be putting it on men
, but we don't.
That's another one of the BSthings that is out there is
being taught.
You know that we're making thisand instead really what we're

(01:07:20):
doing is we're continuing to saywe want to be able to control
women's bodies and choices andlives, period, and we're not
even where we were in 74 right,right it's.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
It's so frustrating to feel as though we had moved
and then go oh we, maybe wehaven't moved at all, you know,
and we've done that and I hadn'treally yet.
I appreciate you opening mymind.
I hadn't really thought of, youknow, consenting to unwanted
sex and any political oreconomic or you know, I don't

(01:07:52):
think I thought past purityculture and to the systems that
perpetuated and promoted thepurity culture that so many of
us found unhelpful Right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
Well, and yeah, yeah, I would recommend looking at
Frank Schaefer's book.
I'm just going to give you alot of info just on that.
That sort of what was happeningculturally that has continued
to shape things because purityculture was at the mercy of, or

(01:08:25):
was a creation of, politics.
They just that's, what theyused was the religious right.
And the you know, they developeda religious right and moral
majority and use the religiouspeople and just basically said
if you really love God, if youreally love your faith, you will
vote this way and you willbelieve these things and it's

(01:08:45):
just continued that way.
There's a good documentary tothe people that did
misrepresentation and the mask.
You live in the representationproject they did, one called the
great american lie, and thatexplains when the different laws
were passed that roll back thetaxes that then took us from a

(01:09:06):
place of like a 40 differencebetween our highest paid person
and to like thousands andthousands percent difference
that we are now and that's againreally shaping culture.
You know, and um and thereligious people who don't think
um have continued to be a pawnfor that um agenda.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Thank you for your time and your thoughts, with
everything I'm so excited aboutwhat you're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Do you know?
Drop me a note every now andagain, and if you've got
anything to send, anythingyou're writing up, I'd just love
to read it and follow it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Thank you so much, I appreciate your enthusiasm too.
That's a gift Absolutely.
Thank you.
All right, okay, bye-bye.