July 31, 2019 • 49 mins
What do you know about the history of Stonewall and the history of Pride? Today we talk about the importance of making visible the contributions of women of marginalized identities to history. Marsha P. Johnson and Brenda Howard. Remember their names. Remember their stories.
For links and show notes, check out our website http://www.shewhopersisted.com
For links and show notes, check out our website http://www.shewhopersisted.com
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(00:14):
She was one, she was givenan explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted,
Hello, and welcome to the Persistence. This is she who persisted the Nasty
podcast. My name is Beatrice,and I'm here with Elizabeth, and today
(00:38):
we're going to talk about as weI think promised last time. Yes,
we are going to talk about MarshaP. Johnson and Brenda Howard. And
the reason why I wanted to dothat is that both were very important figures
in the Stonewell Riots and basically inthe LGBT movement as a whole, but
(01:00):
they're often not remembered or celebrated theway that they should. Yeah, I
mean that's changing, but yes,I totally agree. And also we didn't
want to do all like LGBT thingsduring LGBT Pride Month because we don't think
it's something that can be you know, limited to one month, but it
should be something we talk about all. Yeah, agreed, I it's we
(01:26):
talked about this I think a littlebit before, but like we a lot
like one month to Black History Monthand one month to Women's History Month and
one month to like LGBTQ history,and those parts of history are just as
much a part of global history.And just plain history as they are LGBTQ
(01:49):
history or women's history or black history. And so the more that we can
normalize them as just this is history, the better it is for our understanding
of the past. Exactly exactly.So, yeah, it's July, but
we'll still do pride topics, yes, and I mean this one is a
(02:10):
nice intersection of pride of like LGBTQand um like other identities as well.
Yeah, also like intersection of lgbti Q history in black history, but
also her story, you know,feminist history. Yes, So do you
want to start with Marsha P.Johnson because that's um chronologically the first Sure,
(02:35):
absolutely so. Um. Marsha P. Johnson was born in nineteen forty
five in New Jersey, UM.She said in an interview in Like the
nine ninety two. I think thatshe started wearing dresses when she was five,
but stopped wearing them because she wasteased and bullied, which is awful
(02:55):
but not not surprising because people andespecially children are can be terrible. But
as soon as she graduated from highschool, she moved to New York.
The story is with a bag ofclothes and fifteen dollars. Yeah. Also
we probably should say that she waswhen she was born. She was born
(03:16):
as a boy quote unquote, butyes, I came out as a sign.
Gender at birth was Oh goodness,I like, I don't even pay
attention to that anymore because it doesn'tmatter to me. But let me find
it. Hold on. It wasmale and Marcia was born Malcolm Michael's junior.
(03:38):
Yeah. But anyway, she thefun one of the fun kind of
things that I that I've read overand over again because everybody thinks that it's
kind of a fun detail, isthat her middle initial was p assigned.
I mean, she she took thename Marsha Johnson, Marsha P. Johnson
(03:59):
for herself, and she said thatthe P stood for pay no mind,
because when people asked her what gendershe was, she would just tell them
pay no mind, like don't it'snone of your business, which I very
which I enjoy. Yeah. So, um, transgender wasn't really a thing
(04:19):
that we talked about, um inthe in the fifties and early sixties,
when when Marcia was exploring kind ofalternate gender identities for herself. Um,
but she did use female pronouns forherself and at times she referred to herself
as gay, a queen, adrag queen, and a transastite um,
(04:41):
and I think that's probably appropriate tokind of the time period. Um.
One of the things that I readabout her was that she was very much
fighting for her rights as a gayperson and the rights of gay people generally.
Every time she would she would talkpublicly, she would talk about getting
her rights as a gay person,which I think is indicative of how people
(05:06):
in the sixties and seventies were thinkingabout people who kind of had alternate gender
identities, people who were just partof the LGBTQ community. So yeah,
I think that what transgenda didn't evenexist back then, right, I would
say, no, if it didexist, it certainly wasn't common. Yeah.
(05:29):
So I think it's interesting how peopledescribe their identities with completely different vocabulary
than we do today. I totallyagree with that, And also that gay
was kind of used as an umbrellaterm for queer identities in general, and
that queer at the time was kindof a slur and it has really normally
since then been kind of reclaimed assomething more positive and affirming. Yeah.
(05:55):
Yeah, So she was known asbeing very very generous to her friends,
she lived in part kind of onthe streets. She was also am at
times a sex worker. One ofthe things that I thought was particularly interesting
and heartening about Marsha's story is thatshe and Sylvia Rivera actually started an organization
(06:20):
called STAR, which was Street totrans Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. Yeah. Yeah,
And it was a political organization thatprovided housing and other forms of support
for homeless, queer youth and sexworkers in Manhattan. And I say queer,
this is not the term that shewould have used, not the term
(06:42):
that anybody at the time would haveused. They would have used transvestite or
gay or you know, other things. But they basically created a home for
young people who were coming to NewYork because New York, particularly the Greenwich
Village area was known for being veryyou know, gay friendly, despite all
of the harassment from police, andthey provided a home for them. And
(07:05):
one of the ways that they paidfor that home was through sex work.
And so her sex work wasn't justa means of providing for herself, but
it also was a means of providingfor other young people who were going through
the same things that she had gonethrough and that she wanted to help provide
(07:25):
them with a better life, whichI thought was like amazing, Yeah it
is. Yeah, I'm just amazedright now. I don't know what to
say. This is really very selpless. Yeah yeah, no, selfless is
totally a way to put it.So she was part of one Stonewall,
(07:46):
so we associate her with Stonewall.She's often kind of credited as being one
of the first people who threw thefirst like brick, though she in interviews
after Stonewall says like she didn't evenshow up until later. Other people say
that that she threw a shot glassinto the into the fire the building that
(08:07):
was on fire, and then theysay that that's like the shot glass heard
around the world, which I thinkis also a fun thing. But she
also said she didn't do that.Um So, I mean, I think
with any type of um quote unquoteriot situation, there are conflicting reports of
how people wish that it had beenand reports from the people themselves about either
(08:31):
either diminishing their role in it orum you know, rectifying the facts of
the situation. Regardless of whether ornot she did throw the throw the bricks
or she you know, was oneof the first people there, she was
definitely one of the first trans peopleto fight for their rights within the LGBTQ
(08:56):
community, and she was very activein the gay rights movements in New York
at that time. She was wasshe performed as part of like a drag
performance group, and she was anAIDS activist with the AIDS Coalition Act UP,
which if you've ever seen the SilentEquels Death Pink Triangle things, that's
(09:20):
one of the one of the artthings that that Act UP helped the artist
coalition that associated with act UP produced. So yeah, so she was actually
one when so Stonewall the in thebar was only open to gay men for
a very long time and once theStonewall in opened up to allow women and
(09:45):
trans women and drag queens, etcetera. And she was definitely one of
the first women who was there andvery vocal and very much part of that
community. So when Stonewall occurred insixty nine, there were two kind of
nights of rioting that were very intenseum and like I said, she she
(10:07):
says that she didn't even show upuntil like two o'clock in the morning,
after the fire had already started,which again it doesn't matter other people say
at least on the second night sheum, she did like drop a bag
with bricks on it on a policecar. I didn't ever see a place
(10:28):
where she disputed that. So,say, just for better understanding that Stonewall
like they were actually riots and therewere riots against police brutality against gay people.
Sure, So what was happening inNew York at the time is that
(10:48):
they would do periodic raids on spaceswhere LGBTQ people or folks would would gather
to catch people in the act oflike, you know, doing something that
was that was legally considered like lewdand illegal, so that they could then
arrest them. And so it startedout as kind of just harassed me.
(11:11):
It was harassment basically, and thepolice would come in and they would harass
people in the bars and throw everybodyout, and people by the time the
twenty i think it's the twenty eighthof June nineteen sixty nine rolled around,
they were really tired of it.They were tired of being harassed, they
were tired of the police like likecoming into their spaces when they weren't doing
(11:33):
anything wrong. They were doing exactlythe same things that were happening in straight
bars. Throughout New York. Andso it was the two days of the
Stonewall kind of riots were LGBTQ peopleprotesting, rioting for the first few days,
and then many days of protest forfor a week after that. The
brutality and the harassment that was goingon by police, it was an infringement
(11:58):
on their their civil rights as individualsas as Americans, UM, and they
they were tired of it. AndI think we said in our in our
last episode that it isn't until thisyear, fifty years after the Stonewall riots,
that the police in New York finallyapologized for the harassment and for that
(12:20):
which led to the Stonewall riots.Yeah. I think it's always important to
remember that even now, as likewhen Pride is kind of this commercialized party
parade thing, it used to bea very political like riot situation, not
a party. Yeah, No,it's um. I was just reading an
(12:43):
article written by a young queer historianhere in DC, and she wrote that,
you know, we talk about wetalk about Pride now and it's a
party situation and the streets are oftenlike lined with lease who were supportive and
who are protecting the LGBTQ community.But that's not at all how Pride kind
(13:05):
of started out because it was verymuch a protest against police who were harassing
these same same individuals who they're nowprotecting. Yeah. Yeah, Stonewall happened,
it was rated again, and theyyou know, fought fought against it.
But Johnson after Stonewall was a veryfrequent organizer and participant in gay rights
(13:31):
protests. As I mentioned, shefounded the Street trendvest Site Action Revolutionaries or
Star, opened a homeless shelter forLGBTQ youth, the first of its kind
in the country, and she wasvery active in the Gay Liberation Front and
participated in the very first Christopher StreetLiberation Party Pride rally on the first anniversary
(13:54):
of the Stonewall Rebellion. The problem, one of the problems that um that
kind of came up is that shewas she was trans, and she was
very um, you know, verymuch. The word I want to use
is she was an affront and veryloud reminder that she was gender nonconforming and
(14:22):
that she was not going to um, not going to fit into neat boxes
that people wanted to create for forgender in the in the United States and
beyond. And so when they whenin nineteen seventy three, um, when
they had another gay Pride parade.UM, they by the Gay and Lesbian
(14:43):
Committee in New York, they actuallybanned Johnson and Sylvia Rivera from participating in
that Gay Pride parade because they said, quote they weren't gonna allow drag queens
at their marshes, saying that theygave them a bad name. Yeah.
I mean I think at the verybeginning, um, and I think you
see this with there was a marchin Philadelphia that they did that was you
(15:07):
know, at the Liberty Bell andpeople were told to dress like in their
work clothes and just look like likenormal people like everyone else, um.
Like like like look like normal peoplewith air quotes around it. Um.
But I think that the trans peoplewere like, were not the way that
(15:28):
they wanted to portray their community.Um. And so they were very exclusionary
in the early Pride parades of transpeople. Yeah, and I think they
I think the LGBT community is stillin many ways very exclusive and exclusionary.
I will also talk about this fora bit. Yeah, I think that
Pride can be a lot like that, especially because it has like a lot
(15:52):
of corporate sponsorship. Now, andit's very like, you know, it's
fun party, but you know,this is why there are there's Transpride,
and there's Dike marches, and thereare other things to go along with it,
because they don't feel represented by theofficial Pride. Yeah exactly. The
response though, to this, likeexclusion in the nineteen seventy three Pride parade,
(16:18):
was that they marched ahead of theparade as a as a form of
protest, which I thought was great. Liken't let us be in our parade.
Fine, we'll just walk ahead ofyour parade and we'll, you know,
we will be a very like starconfinder that we are not unified and
that you are excluding us, whichI appreciated. Yeah. So. And
(16:42):
during a gay rights rally in NewYork in the early seventies, a reporter
asked her why why they were demonstratingand why they were protesting, and she
shouted into the microphone, darling,I want my gay rights now. So
you know, her gay right weremaybe because of her kind of intersectional identities.
(17:02):
She identified as a gay black woman. Um, those those identities,
each layer of that is one differentform of oppression being a black person,
of being a black woman, ofbeing a gay black woman, of being
a transgay black woman. I meanall of those things combine and saying I
(17:23):
want my gay rights now as sayingthat I have a lot of identities that
deserve rights and they are being um, you know, denied me. And
it's not just about your game rights, but also about mine, exactly exactly.
Yeah, she was amazing. Shedid a lot of amazing things right
up until her death in um nineteenninety two, I believe, And there's
(17:48):
actually, yeah ninety two, there'sactually a couple of documentaries about her that
I would that I would definitely recommend. One is called Pain No Mind,
which kind of oh yeah, playis on her own personal name. And
the other one is I think it'scalled The Life and Death of Marsha P.
Johnson and that's on Netflix right now, and it's actually follows a trans
(18:11):
woman in New York who's really tryingto get her death reopened as a cold
case because there were reports from people. So she died in the Hudson River,
which is the river right by NewYork. She had been harassed as
a as a sex worker, asa trans sex worker, and there were
(18:32):
reports that she had been harassed bymultiple people during that time, and that
somebody had gone into a bar andsaid that he just killed a quote unquote
tranny named Marcia so and that somebodysaw that she had like a you know,
a wound or a hole in theback of her head when they pulled
her out of the river. Now, that could have happened any number of
(18:52):
ways, but people within the communityreally wanted to investigate it and not just
listed as an act as a suiciside because they didn't think that she would
have committed suicide. So, yeah, it's still unsolved. And it also
I think the whole thing also goesto show that as a black trans woman,
as a activist, as a sexworker, she her death wasn't taken
(19:18):
as seriously as the death of awhite SIS person. Oh agreed, agreed,
I know. I mean I thinkthat that we see that just without
adding the trans aspect to it.We see it in the reporting of how
we report like people who end upgetting kidnapped, people who end up dead
(19:40):
in the United States, and I'msure beyond but it's it's it's sad,
it's terrible. Yeah yeah, so, um so she still has a long
legacy and actually they are getting readyto. They announced this year that they
will be putting up a a monumentto honor Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia
(20:07):
Rivera I think near Stonewall, ButI do know that her name was one
of the one of the first tobe entered into the like LGBTQ Rights like
Hall of Fame. But this,this monument that's going to be erected for
Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Riverais going to be the first monument to
(20:29):
I think they said, the firstmonument to trans people in the United States.
Yeah, yeah, it is.Yeah, I've read that, Yeah,
which is ridiculous. I agreed.There are a ton of other podcasts
that are doing like more kind ofextensive profiles on Marsha P. Johnson.
One thing I do want to mentionthough, is the Marsha P. Johnson
(20:52):
Institute, which is an institute thatprotects and defends the human rights of black
transgender people by adding creating an intentionalcommunity to heal, developing transformative leadership,
and promoting collective power. So ifthis is something that means a lot to
you, I would totally say donateto the Marchha P. Johnson Institute.
(21:15):
Find ways to help support them,especially because violence against the transgender community is
on the rise. In twenty eighteen, advocates at the Human Rights Campaign tracked
at least twenty six deaths of transgenderpeople in the US due to fatal violence.
The majority of these were black transgenderwomen. They were killed by acquaintances,
(21:41):
partners, and strangers, some ofwhom we've been arrested in charge and
others who have left yet to beidentified. And in twenty nineteen, we
have already seen at least eleven transgenderpeople fatally shot or killed by other violent
means. So the people who arebeing killed are black transgender women, yeah,
(22:03):
in particular, but transgender people areparticularly at risk because of their identities.
So support organizations that are doing thework of protecting those those people.
And also I have a recommendation becauseyou mentioned podcasts to do. Yeah,
um extensive episodes on mush by Johnsonright now. The best one I listened
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to was by the podcast Deviant Women. I think it's the latest episode is
really really good, So let's golisten to that if you want more information
on her life and on what shedid her legacy. It's really amazing.
Yes, definitely check it out allright, So because your voice is already
so strange as you can probably hear, Liz is a bit sick. She
(22:49):
has a cold, and um,yeah, So I'm gonna take over from
here, and I'm going to talkabout another woman who I think was an
affront to the gay rights movement.So every time I do a lecture on
the topic of by invisibility or byerasure, I always start my presentation with
(23:11):
a picture of Brenda Howard and Iwill also post one on Instagram so you
can have a look. And Ithen asked the audience side note, Usually
those lectures are in the context ofLGPT i Q community, so it's usually
people who are familiar with LGPT historyat least a bit, and ask them
(23:33):
whether they know that person, andnot once have I ever received a correct
answer. Most people don't know whoBrenda how It is, which I think
is outrageous. I didn't know whoBrenda how It was for the longest time.
And I'll tell you why we don'tknow who she is, or why
many of us to know who sheis in a second. And I'll also
tell you why it's not just outrageous, but also a structural problem. So
(23:57):
here we go, okay. BrendaHoward was also born in New York City
in the Bronx on the twenty fourthof December in the year nineteen forty six.
So since she was born on thetwenty fourth of December, she is
what we in Austria called a christKindle. And if you've listened to our
Christmas episode, do you know whatI'm talking about? If you don't,
(24:18):
go listen to the Christmas episode.All right. So, and she died
in the year two thousand and five, ironically, sadly ironically, in June,
which is Pride Month. And youwill learn very soon how Pride Month
actually is related to Jim Brenda Howardand what she has to do with it
all. So, Brenda Howard wasan anti war activist, in this case
(24:38):
against the Vietnam War, and somebiographies also state that this activism is what
originally politicized her. She also wasa sex positive feminist. She lived a
polyamorous life. She was an LGBTacute activist and more specifically later on then
also a bisexual rights activist. Sheparticipated and planned LGBT rights actions for over
(25:03):
three decades, and she was anactive member of the Gay Liberation Front,
act UP that you already heard about, Queer Nation, the Coalition of Lesbian
and Gay Rights, and she wasthe chair of Gay Activists Alliance. So
hold on a second. So BrendaBrenda, Brenda Howard was in many of
(25:26):
the same groups that Marsha P.Johnson was in Gay Liberation, Yeah,
exactly, act UP, like allof the like big activist groups that were
part of the like beginnings of theLGBTQ movement. Exactly. But it's also
not very surprising because they were bothin New York and that's just what happened
in New York, So they wereboth part of that. The most important
thing, however, is that withouther, there would be no Pride parade,
(25:49):
there would be no Pride Month,because she basically organized the first lgpt
IQ, which wasn't called lt IQback then, the first like gay Pride
March in nineteen seventy and that wasintended as an anniversary celebration of the Stonewall
riots that Liz just told you about. So it was the first anniversary and
(26:11):
they were basically doing a parade.Because of that, she also originated the
idea for a week long series ofevents around that Pride Day, and that
basically became the genesis of the annualLGBTQ Pride celebrations that are now held around
the world every June. But shealso popularized the term pride together with two
(26:34):
other activists, with bisexual activist robertA. Martin who was also called Donnie
the Punk, and gay activist CraigSchoonmaker l Craig Schoolmaker, I think,
and they basically came up with thatterm Pride as the term for the festivities.
And that all of that is whyshe is often referred to as the
(26:56):
Mother of Pride. Nice. Yeah, Also, I mean she did so
many things. So in nineteen eightyseven, which is the year I was
born, yea, she co foundedthe New York Area Bisexual Network and she
helped establish all kinds of services forthe bisexual community in and around New York.
She was a member of BIPACK,which is a bisexual political activist group.
(27:19):
She was a regional organized organizer forbinet USA, a co facilitator of
the Bisexual sm Discussion Group, andthe founder of the first Alcoholics Anonymous chapter
which was targeted specifically at bisexuals,which is really amazing because bisexuals, in
all studies that we know or thedata that we have, are the one
(27:41):
sexual orientation group that when it comesto health outcomes basically are the worst worst
of including gays interests. Is thisbecause bisexuals don't feel included or recognized or
accepted within LGBTQ community? What aninteresting question, I think. I mean,
(28:06):
I think it's a complex conglomerates ofdifferent reasons. I think one of
the most important ones is that bisexualsare neither part of the strict majority nor
are they really part of the gaylesbian community, and very often stigmatized in
both of those groups, so theythey often feel like they don't have like
(28:32):
a community to begin with. Yeah, many reasons. Bisexuality is very often
rendered and visible in our society.It's existence is questioned. People who are
bisexual often like have like the continuousexperience of their sexuality and identity being questions.
(28:52):
So there's many many aspects that leadto bisexual people having worse health and
particularly worse mental health, suicidality,depression, anxiety, and of course all
of that then can lead to drugand alcohol abuse as a coping strategy.
And that's the reason why it's veryvery it's like just a very cool thing
that she, yeah, like foundedthis Alcoholics Anonymous chapter which is targeted at
(29:18):
bisexual people. Also very necessary,necessary, probably, And she of course
also worked on the March on Washingtonfor Lesbian and Gay Rights, the Margin
Washington for Lesbian, Gay and byEqual Rights and Liberation, where she was
co chair of the latter contingent.So I mean, I could go on
forever. But basically Howard was abisexual woman, but she was also openly
(29:42):
polyamorous and she practiced BDSM, soshe also is what we could call an
affront to the gay rights movement.Yeah, and BDSM is totally one of
those things where like people are okay, like making fun of it in movies
and they're like or they're like fiftyshades like, oh, I'm going to
play around with it, but theydon't. They don't really want to think
(30:03):
about people who do that as alifestyle, and they don't want to think
about what that means and why they'redoing it as a lifestyle. Very similar
to why people don't want to likeactually think about and confront like bisexuality and
that that is a legitimate that theseare things that are an affront to the
power dynamics and the social dynamics thatwe have in terms of sexuality and gender,
(30:30):
and they really turn turn those dynamicsand those binaries on their head in
a lot of ways, both bisexualityand BDSM. B DSM like takes the
power dynamics that we have in societyand says like every relationship is essentially like
it deals with power, you justdon't realize it, and we're going to
play around with that power in away that is like pleasurable and maybe painful,
(30:55):
and but that interrogates like the thatpower. But people don't like to
Those are two identities where people don'treally like to think about them too much.
Yeah. Also the same goes forasexuality. I think it's also something
that's completely rendered invisible. And wehave a great episode about asexuality if you
(31:18):
want to go, yeah, listento that. What I think is just
sad for the whole of society,even people who are not bisexual, people
who don't practice BDSM, for peoplewho are not asexual, is that each
one of us can learn so muchfrom people with other sexual identities. I
like, I learned so much fromthe beds M community about consent. Yes,
(31:41):
even if I don't practice MEDIOSM.I learned so much from reading about
asexuality when it comes to expressing mysexual identities, because they have such a
when it comes to expressing my formsof attraction, because they have such a
varied vocabulary of differential between sexual attractionand romantic attraction and esthetic attraction, and
(32:02):
it just is so it just enricheseveryone to respect and talk about talk with
other people that have a completely differentconcept of their own sexuality as you do.
Yeah, No, I totally agree. I mean the issues of consent
that that BDSM brings up, Likeit is if you go to any BDSM
(32:23):
club, like everything there is aboutconsent, and they will do workshops on
how to talk about consent and howto think about consent and how to how
to really make that a central aspectof every like all play, all scenes.
And I think that that's really interesting. If we're not open to learning
(32:46):
about different ways to talk about sexuality, in different ways, to talk about
consent, in different ways to approachidentities, then we are never going to
evolve as a society that appreciates people'srights and people's identities. Things have changed,
(33:07):
language has changed, language is constantlyevolving. It's not up to those
communities to teach us how to respectthem, and it's up to us to
learn how to respect them. Andwe can come to it from a place
of lesser knowledge and say like,hey, I don't I don't know the
right way to do this, butadmit that you don't know the right way
(33:30):
to do it, and then learnfrom that, and like I'm not perfect
and you're not perfect, and noneof us in this society are perfect.
But being open to like learning aboutthe best way to approach that is super
important. Yeah, as Walt Woodmansaid, be curious, not judgmental.
Yes. So, Brenda Howard probablyis the most striking example of what I
(33:52):
would call by a ratio. Shewas such a significant part of the LGBT
community and without how I would haveno pride parades. But still very few
people know her and the reason forthat is, as I said, by
Erasia, by invisibility. And Iwill only touch on this topic very briefly
because we already did an episode awhile ago. I think it was episode
(34:14):
four correg about by negativity. Andalso one thing that I recommend is the
wonderful podcast Stuff Mom never told you, just did it two parts on bisexuality,
and I highly highly recommend it becausewhat they did is they invited bisexual
people and bisexual researchers to talk abouttheir own experiences with by negativity by ira
(34:37):
by erasia with judgment, but alsotalk to talk about the research and basically
about how biphobia in its most extremeextreme, like the most extreme impact of
it, can actually actually kill.And let me tell you, it is
so touching, it's highly informative,it's enraging, and it's just a brilliant
(35:00):
piece of podcasting. So please pleaselisten to it. I'll put a link
in the show notes so you canjust click on it and listen. Plus
if you speak German. In myother podcast, also TOXTA, I also
did an episode with a bioresearcher whodoes studies on the topic of by negativity
on exactly that topic, so checkthat out too. According to Wikipedia,
(35:22):
which is the actual creator of thispodcast, they define bisexual arasia or sexual
invisibility as quote the tendency to ignore, remove, falsify, or re explain
evidence of bisexuality in history, academia, the news media, and other primary
(35:44):
sources in its most extreme form bisexualerasia can include the belief that bisexuality does
not exist. Heterosexual and gay peoplewho engage in bisexual erasia may claim that
bisexuals are either homosexual or exclusively heterosexual, closeted gay or lesbian people who wish
to appear heterosexual, or are heterosexualswho are experimenting with their sexuality. A
(36:08):
common manifestation of bisexual erasure is atendency for bisexuals to be referred to as
heterosexual when they are intimately involved withpeople of the opposite sex, and to
be labeled as homosexuals when they areinvolved with people of the same sex.
And that is actually also something thathappens to celebrities when you think about it,
(36:28):
So I think one of the mostfamous examples is Freddie McCary, who
was a bisexual man who was inrelationships with women, who was even a
long term relationship with a Viennese woman. Wasn't me, but he's usually referred
to as gay. Also, peoplelike I don't know, Anna Paquin.
(36:50):
There's a very notable interview with what'shis name, Larry, I forgot his
name, like the host with theglasses, the Arry old man who looks
like a small goblin, a bity. We'll come that out. Wait,
no, I'm gonna have a lookAnna Paquin Larry King, Yes exactly.
(37:15):
I love the description of Larry Kingas a goblin. He does look
a bit like a goblin. Ohmy god, that's all. I'm not
goblin shaming him. Goblins are nice. Um. So yeah. So he
asked her in an interview that youcan watch on YouTube, because she's married
(37:36):
to a man now and she's ina monogonamous relationship with her husband, and
he was like, so you arestraight now? You were bisexual, And
then she goes on to explain howshe's still bisexual because being bisexual also can
imply being in a relationship with aman. So yeah, so this also
happens to celebrities. M yeah.But I don't want to go into details
(37:59):
about what by negativity and by invisibilitymeans, because, as I said,
we've already talked about this, othershave talked about this more eloquently than I
ever could. But I want totalk about how all of that relates to
Brenda Howard. So the LGBTQ communityas we know it today, or at
least it's media image mediated image ismostly se spearheaded by young, white,
(38:20):
able boarded sis gentlemen. Yeah,at least it's representation and bisexual people,
particularly bisexual women, who make avery huge part of the bisexual of the
LGBT community in general, and particularlythose who don't give many fucks about respectability
politics like marriage for all are oftenmade invisible. And Brenda Howard was such
(38:42):
a woman. She was a bisexualwoman, She was not very marketable,
she lived a polyamorous life. Sheat the same time the gay rights movement
fought for the right to marry.She was very radical, she was very
militant, she was feminist to practiceBDSM. And also I think basically we
have to think about the difference betweengay rights and queer liberations. So the
(39:05):
former campaigns for inclusion into existing institutions, most prominently, especially recently, the
right to marry, and the latterqueer liberation once more radical structural change,
and it calls into questions those veryinstitutions and the patrio are called queer phobic
capitalist foundations. These institutions are builtupon. So gay rights is very much
(39:29):
about respectability politics. If you lookat the whole discourse around gay marriage,
it was based on the idea ofwe are normal, We're just like you.
We also want some monogamous nuclear familyand a dog and a cat and
a picket fence. And there's nothingscarier radical about us right and doing so
gay rights And I intentionally say gayrights and not gay and lesbian rights,
(39:52):
because the gay rights movement also does, in fact focus heavily on men,
another thing that I criticize. Sodoing so, the gay rides movement also
perpetuates normative ideas about sexuality, aboutrelationships, about love, about family,
about kinship, about monosexuality, aboutmonogamy, all of that. I have
(40:13):
a friend who actually we all knowher, Amy Dreyer. She used to
be she used to organize the DenverPride Parade. And I know or Pride
celebrations generally, and I know fromher and from my experience of Pride this
year here in the DC area,that it is, I mean it is.
(40:35):
It is more inclusive, probably thanit has been in the past,
but it is definitely like it's corporatesponsored. It's a lot of like gay
white men or gay men period,but often gay white men who are like
very pleased with themselves. And itdoesn't allow a lot often allow a lot
(40:57):
of space for people who are notgay, white CIS man who probably live
in probably have relationships that are notnormative, that are not monogamous. All
that, I agreed, But Ithink the fact that Pride events are like
(41:22):
corporate sponsored has a lot to dowith with why, um, it's mostly
gay white men who are like visiblebecause that's also the demographic group within the
LGBTQ community that it is the mostaffluent. Yeah, and they can be
(41:42):
targeted by and they're mostly targeted byadvertising, etcetera, etcetera. So I
think the reason why we mostly seegay white men in the media is capitalism
basically. Yeah, no, Itotally agree. Yeah so yeah, so
Brenda Howard she was a radical sexpositive feminist, polyamorous medist and practitioner.
(42:05):
She was probably not exactly the bestfigurehead when your prime goal is the right
to marry. So I think shein many ways has also been forgotten very
intentionally, let's put it that way. Yeah. So, I think,
you know, in a society wouldgenerally have a huge problem with monosexism,
which is the assumption that everyone ismonosexual, which means only sexually interested in
(42:30):
one sex or one gender. Expression, which is just a falsity. Seventy
five of the lgpt IQ community isbisexual, and again most of them are
women, which might also play apart in why they are rendered invisible.
So yeah, please listen to thepodcast episodes that are recommended. That helps
(42:52):
probably helps contextualize everything I just said. And also think we have to start
acknowledging the huge part bisexual people andnon wanto sexual people of all kinds play
in the LGBTQ community and broader societyand the contributions they have made and keep
making in you know, lgbt inthe lgbt rights movement. Yeah, I
(43:14):
mean, and and Brenda how itis just the best example for that.
Yeah, No, I mean,I think you're absolutely right. You know,
we we we on our podcast cando our part in raising the visibility
of individuals who played an important rolein UM LGBTQ history, but particularly in
(43:34):
identities that were that have been marginalizedand are continue to be marginalized within within
the movement UM because it's not justone movement, it's multiple movements, and
the if we call it like themovement, generally we are necessarily excluding those
people who don't identify with the leadersof uh if we even have leaders of
(43:57):
the movement itself. Um, so, you know, bringing up the issues
and bringing up the identities of peoplewho are who have been marginalized, people
who are continue to be marginalized,is really important. And I think that's
part of why we wanted to dothis episode about Marsha P. Johnson and
Brenda Howard is because they are individualswho were part of Pride, part of
(44:23):
the Stonewall riots that we are justnow starting to recognize and and raise up
their identities as people who are criticalto our understanding and to whom we owe
a lot of gratitude for the workthat they did and the work that people
(44:45):
continue to do in their name.Yeah, exactly. And I would like
to end with a quote by Tom. Tom Limoncelli said that in two thousand
and five, the next time someoneasks you why LGBT Pride marches exist or
why Gay Pride Month is in June, tell them a bisexual woman named Brenda
(45:07):
Howard thought it should be. Andyeah, and one thing you can add
to that is and because black bisexualtrans women started a riot, Yeah exactly.
Cool. All right, So Ihope you learned something today I learned.
Let's see what did I learned.I learned that we need to talk
(45:31):
more about bisexual and polly women whowere leaders in forming communities that are not
just the like standard Pride parade.And I've learned today and doing research,
well, not today, but whenI was doing research for this that,
And it's not just something that Ilearned recently about something that I was reminded
(45:52):
about. We need to talk moreabout violence against trans women. We need
to talk more about violence black women. Yes, we need to talk more
about violence against women generally. Umyeah, um. And we need to
um, we need to do abetter job of raising the visibility of these
(46:15):
issues of violence against against people ofmarginalized identities period. And we need to
understand how much marginalized people with marginalizedidentities are like central, like ore in
the middle of our society and inthe middle of our communities. And I'm
not on the margins, but likea just a very like Yeah. I
(46:40):
don't want to say normal, butI'm gonna say they're they're present everywhere,
They're everywhere. One of the umone of the slogans of the queer movement
was we're here where we are dealwith it, yes, or something like
that. So I think it's verytrue. Yeah, I'm going to say
when I said I hope you'll learnsomething, I was actually talking well,
I know, I know you're talkingto our listeners, but like I you
(47:00):
know, these are things. Yeah, I will say, but it's nice
to hear that you also learn something. Yeah, I think that I'm going
to say something super cheesy, like, it's not that they're normal, it's
just that they are part of therainbow of identities, and you can't have
a rainbow without all of those variouscolors in it. I know it's super
(47:23):
cheesy, so nice. Thank youso much. All right, I think
that's a good, uh sentence toend on. We will put the links
to a lot of information in theshow notes. Check them out on our
website. Yeah, follow us onInstagram and on Twitter, rate and review
(47:49):
us because that is really important tous. And if you have any other
suggestions for um for future episodes,drop us a line. She who is
a dot com is and you canalso find all the info there. So
yeah, all right, all rightthen stay nasty nasty bye bye. Thank
(48:13):
you for listening to She who persistedthe nasty podcast. If you want to
reach out to us on social media, you can reach us on our Facebook
page She Who Persisted the Nasty Podcast, the Facebook discussion group per Sisters,
the She Who Persisted group on Instagramat She Who Persisted, on Twitter She
(48:35):
Persisted pod, or via email atShe who Persisted Podcast at gmail dot com.
You can always find us on ourwebsite She Who Persisted dot com.
Thanks for listening. We hope you'llcontinue to join us in thinking about ways
that you can fight the patriarchy,resist and persist, Stay nasty. Bye. One two
She was one, she was givenan explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted,
Hello, and welcome to the Persistence. This is she who persisted the Nasty
podcast. My name is Beatrice,and I'm here with Elizabeth, and today
(00:38):
we're going to talk about as weI think promised last time. Yes,
we are going to talk about MarshaP. Johnson and Brenda Howard. And
the reason why I wanted to dothat is that both were very important figures
in the Stonewell Riots and basically inthe LGBT movement as a whole, but
(01:00):
they're often not remembered or celebrated theway that they should. Yeah, I
mean that's changing, but yes,I totally agree. And also we didn't
want to do all like LGBT thingsduring LGBT Pride Month because we don't think
it's something that can be you know, limited to one month, but it
should be something we talk about all. Yeah, agreed, I it's we
(01:26):
talked about this I think a littlebit before, but like we a lot
like one month to Black History Monthand one month to Women's History Month and
one month to like LGBTQ history,and those parts of history are just as
much a part of global history.And just plain history as they are LGBTQ
(01:49):
history or women's history or black history. And so the more that we can
normalize them as just this is history, the better it is for our understanding
of the past. Exactly exactly.So, yeah, it's July, but
we'll still do pride topics, yes, and I mean this one is a
(02:10):
nice intersection of pride of like LGBTQand um like other identities as well.
Yeah, also like intersection of lgbti Q history in black history, but
also her story, you know,feminist history. Yes, So do you
want to start with Marsha P.Johnson because that's um chronologically the first Sure,
(02:35):
absolutely so. Um. Marsha P. Johnson was born in nineteen forty
five in New Jersey, UM.She said in an interview in Like the
nine ninety two. I think thatshe started wearing dresses when she was five,
but stopped wearing them because she wasteased and bullied, which is awful
(02:55):
but not not surprising because people andespecially children are can be terrible. But
as soon as she graduated from highschool, she moved to New York.
The story is with a bag ofclothes and fifteen dollars. Yeah. Also
we probably should say that she waswhen she was born. She was born
(03:16):
as a boy quote unquote, butyes, I came out as a sign.
Gender at birth was Oh goodness,I like, I don't even pay
attention to that anymore because it doesn'tmatter to me. But let me find
it. Hold on. It wasmale and Marcia was born Malcolm Michael's junior.
(03:38):
Yeah. But anyway, she thefun one of the fun kind of
things that I that I've read overand over again because everybody thinks that it's
kind of a fun detail, isthat her middle initial was p assigned.
I mean, she she took thename Marsha Johnson, Marsha P. Johnson
(03:59):
for herself, and she said thatthe P stood for pay no mind,
because when people asked her what gendershe was, she would just tell them
pay no mind, like don't it'snone of your business, which I very
which I enjoy. Yeah. So, um, transgender wasn't really a thing
(04:19):
that we talked about, um inthe in the fifties and early sixties,
when when Marcia was exploring kind ofalternate gender identities for herself. Um,
but she did use female pronouns forherself and at times she referred to herself
as gay, a queen, adrag queen, and a transastite um,
(04:41):
and I think that's probably appropriate tokind of the time period. Um.
One of the things that I readabout her was that she was very much
fighting for her rights as a gayperson and the rights of gay people generally.
Every time she would she would talkpublicly, she would talk about getting
her rights as a gay person,which I think is indicative of how people
(05:06):
in the sixties and seventies were thinkingabout people who kind of had alternate gender
identities, people who were just partof the LGBTQ community. So yeah,
I think that what transgenda didn't evenexist back then, right, I would
say, no, if it didexist, it certainly wasn't common. Yeah.
(05:29):
So I think it's interesting how peopledescribe their identities with completely different vocabulary
than we do today. I totallyagree with that, And also that gay
was kind of used as an umbrellaterm for queer identities in general, and
that queer at the time was kindof a slur and it has really normally
since then been kind of reclaimed assomething more positive and affirming. Yeah.
(05:55):
Yeah, So she was known asbeing very very generous to her friends,
she lived in part kind of onthe streets. She was also am at
times a sex worker. One ofthe things that I thought was particularly interesting
and heartening about Marsha's story is thatshe and Sylvia Rivera actually started an organization
(06:20):
called STAR, which was Street totrans Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. Yeah. Yeah,
And it was a political organization thatprovided housing and other forms of support
for homeless, queer youth and sexworkers in Manhattan. And I say queer,
this is not the term that shewould have used, not the term
(06:42):
that anybody at the time would haveused. They would have used transvestite or
gay or you know, other things. But they basically created a home for
young people who were coming to NewYork because New York, particularly the Greenwich
Village area was known for being veryyou know, gay friendly, despite all
of the harassment from police, andthey provided a home for them. And
(07:05):
one of the ways that they paidfor that home was through sex work.
And so her sex work wasn't justa means of providing for herself, but
it also was a means of providingfor other young people who were going through
the same things that she had gonethrough and that she wanted to help provide
(07:25):
them with a better life, whichI thought was like amazing, Yeah it
is. Yeah, I'm just amazedright now. I don't know what to
say. This is really very selpless. Yeah yeah, no, selfless is
totally a way to put it.So she was part of one Stonewall,
(07:46):
so we associate her with Stonewall.She's often kind of credited as being one
of the first people who threw thefirst like brick, though she in interviews
after Stonewall says like she didn't evenshow up until later. Other people say
that that she threw a shot glassinto the into the fire the building that
(08:07):
was on fire, and then theysay that that's like the shot glass heard
around the world, which I thinkis also a fun thing. But she
also said she didn't do that.Um So, I mean, I think
with any type of um quote unquoteriot situation, there are conflicting reports of
how people wish that it had beenand reports from the people themselves about either
(08:31):
either diminishing their role in it orum you know, rectifying the facts of
the situation. Regardless of whether ornot she did throw the throw the bricks
or she you know, was oneof the first people there, she was
definitely one of the first trans peopleto fight for their rights within the LGBTQ
(08:56):
community, and she was very activein the gay rights movements in New York
at that time. She was wasshe performed as part of like a drag
performance group, and she was anAIDS activist with the AIDS Coalition Act UP,
which if you've ever seen the SilentEquels Death Pink Triangle things, that's
(09:20):
one of the one of the artthings that that Act UP helped the artist
coalition that associated with act UP produced. So yeah, so she was actually
one when so Stonewall the in thebar was only open to gay men for
a very long time and once theStonewall in opened up to allow women and
(09:45):
trans women and drag queens, etcetera. And she was definitely one of
the first women who was there andvery vocal and very much part of that
community. So when Stonewall occurred insixty nine, there were two kind of
nights of rioting that were very intenseum and like I said, she she
(10:07):
says that she didn't even show upuntil like two o'clock in the morning,
after the fire had already started,which again it doesn't matter other people say
at least on the second night sheum, she did like drop a bag
with bricks on it on a policecar. I didn't ever see a place
(10:28):
where she disputed that. So,say, just for better understanding that Stonewall
like they were actually riots and therewere riots against police brutality against gay people.
Sure, So what was happening inNew York at the time is that
(10:48):
they would do periodic raids on spaceswhere LGBTQ people or folks would would gather
to catch people in the act oflike, you know, doing something that
was that was legally considered like lewdand illegal, so that they could then
arrest them. And so it startedout as kind of just harassed me.
(11:11):
It was harassment basically, and thepolice would come in and they would harass
people in the bars and throw everybodyout, and people by the time the
twenty i think it's the twenty eighthof June nineteen sixty nine rolled around,
they were really tired of it.They were tired of being harassed, they
were tired of the police like likecoming into their spaces when they weren't doing
(11:33):
anything wrong. They were doing exactlythe same things that were happening in straight
bars. Throughout New York. Andso it was the two days of the
Stonewall kind of riots were LGBTQ peopleprotesting, rioting for the first few days,
and then many days of protest forfor a week after that. The
brutality and the harassment that was goingon by police, it was an infringement
(11:58):
on their their civil rights as individualsas as Americans, UM, and they
they were tired of it. AndI think we said in our in our
last episode that it isn't until thisyear, fifty years after the Stonewall riots,
that the police in New York finallyapologized for the harassment and for that
(12:20):
which led to the Stonewall riots.Yeah. I think it's always important to
remember that even now, as likewhen Pride is kind of this commercialized party
parade thing, it used to bea very political like riot situation, not
a party. Yeah, No,it's um. I was just reading an
(12:43):
article written by a young queer historianhere in DC, and she wrote that,
you know, we talk about wetalk about Pride now and it's a
party situation and the streets are oftenlike lined with lease who were supportive and
who are protecting the LGBTQ community.But that's not at all how Pride kind
(13:05):
of started out because it was verymuch a protest against police who were harassing
these same same individuals who they're nowprotecting. Yeah. Yeah, Stonewall happened,
it was rated again, and theyyou know, fought fought against it.
But Johnson after Stonewall was a veryfrequent organizer and participant in gay rights
(13:31):
protests. As I mentioned, shefounded the Street trendvest Site Action Revolutionaries or
Star, opened a homeless shelter forLGBTQ youth, the first of its kind
in the country, and she wasvery active in the Gay Liberation Front and
participated in the very first Christopher StreetLiberation Party Pride rally on the first anniversary
(13:54):
of the Stonewall Rebellion. The problem, one of the problems that um that
kind of came up is that shewas she was trans, and she was
very um, you know, verymuch. The word I want to use
is she was an affront and veryloud reminder that she was gender nonconforming and
(14:22):
that she was not going to um, not going to fit into neat boxes
that people wanted to create for forgender in the in the United States and
beyond. And so when they whenin nineteen seventy three, um, when
they had another gay Pride parade.UM, they by the Gay and Lesbian
(14:43):
Committee in New York, they actuallybanned Johnson and Sylvia Rivera from participating in
that Gay Pride parade because they said, quote they weren't gonna allow drag queens
at their marshes, saying that theygave them a bad name. Yeah.
I mean I think at the verybeginning, um, and I think you
see this with there was a marchin Philadelphia that they did that was you
(15:07):
know, at the Liberty Bell andpeople were told to dress like in their
work clothes and just look like likenormal people like everyone else, um.
Like like like look like normal peoplewith air quotes around it. Um.
But I think that the trans peoplewere like, were not the way that
(15:28):
they wanted to portray their community.Um. And so they were very exclusionary
in the early Pride parades of transpeople. Yeah, and I think they
I think the LGBT community is stillin many ways very exclusive and exclusionary.
I will also talk about this fora bit. Yeah, I think that
Pride can be a lot like that, especially because it has like a lot
(15:52):
of corporate sponsorship. Now, andit's very like, you know, it's
fun party, but you know,this is why there are there's Transpride,
and there's Dike marches, and thereare other things to go along with it,
because they don't feel represented by theofficial Pride. Yeah exactly. The
response though, to this, likeexclusion in the nineteen seventy three Pride parade,
(16:18):
was that they marched ahead of theparade as a as a form of
protest, which I thought was great. Liken't let us be in our parade.
Fine, we'll just walk ahead ofyour parade and we'll, you know,
we will be a very like starconfinder that we are not unified and
that you are excluding us, whichI appreciated. Yeah. So. And
(16:42):
during a gay rights rally in NewYork in the early seventies, a reporter
asked her why why they were demonstratingand why they were protesting, and she
shouted into the microphone, darling,I want my gay rights now. So
you know, her gay right weremaybe because of her kind of intersectional identities.
(17:02):
She identified as a gay black woman. Um, those those identities,
each layer of that is one differentform of oppression being a black person,
of being a black woman, ofbeing a gay black woman, of being
a transgay black woman. I meanall of those things combine and saying I
(17:23):
want my gay rights now as sayingthat I have a lot of identities that
deserve rights and they are being um, you know, denied me. And
it's not just about your game rights, but also about mine, exactly exactly.
Yeah, she was amazing. Shedid a lot of amazing things right
up until her death in um nineteenninety two, I believe, And there's
(17:48):
actually, yeah ninety two, there'sactually a couple of documentaries about her that
I would that I would definitely recommend. One is called Pain No Mind,
which kind of oh yeah, playis on her own personal name. And
the other one is I think it'scalled The Life and Death of Marsha P.
Johnson and that's on Netflix right now, and it's actually follows a trans
(18:11):
woman in New York who's really tryingto get her death reopened as a cold
case because there were reports from people. So she died in the Hudson River,
which is the river right by NewYork. She had been harassed as
a as a sex worker, asa trans sex worker, and there were
(18:32):
reports that she had been harassed bymultiple people during that time, and that
somebody had gone into a bar andsaid that he just killed a quote unquote
tranny named Marcia so and that somebodysaw that she had like a you know,
a wound or a hole in theback of her head when they pulled
her out of the river. Now, that could have happened any number of
(18:52):
ways, but people within the communityreally wanted to investigate it and not just
listed as an act as a suiciside because they didn't think that she would
have committed suicide. So, yeah, it's still unsolved. And it also
I think the whole thing also goesto show that as a black trans woman,
as a activist, as a sexworker, she her death wasn't taken
(19:18):
as seriously as the death of awhite SIS person. Oh agreed, agreed,
I know. I mean I thinkthat that we see that just without
adding the trans aspect to it.We see it in the reporting of how
we report like people who end upgetting kidnapped, people who end up dead
(19:40):
in the United States, and I'msure beyond but it's it's it's sad,
it's terrible. Yeah yeah, so, um so she still has a long
legacy and actually they are getting readyto. They announced this year that they
will be putting up a a monumentto honor Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia
(20:07):
Rivera I think near Stonewall, ButI do know that her name was one
of the one of the first tobe entered into the like LGBTQ Rights like
Hall of Fame. But this,this monument that's going to be erected for
Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Riverais going to be the first monument to
(20:29):
I think they said, the firstmonument to trans people in the United States.
Yeah, yeah, it is.Yeah, I've read that, Yeah,
which is ridiculous. I agreed.There are a ton of other podcasts
that are doing like more kind ofextensive profiles on Marsha P. Johnson.
One thing I do want to mentionthough, is the Marsha P. Johnson
(20:52):
Institute, which is an institute thatprotects and defends the human rights of black
transgender people by adding creating an intentionalcommunity to heal, developing transformative leadership,
and promoting collective power. So ifthis is something that means a lot to
you, I would totally say donateto the Marchha P. Johnson Institute.
(21:15):
Find ways to help support them,especially because violence against the transgender community is
on the rise. In twenty eighteen, advocates at the Human Rights Campaign tracked
at least twenty six deaths of transgenderpeople in the US due to fatal violence.
The majority of these were black transgenderwomen. They were killed by acquaintances,
(21:41):
partners, and strangers, some ofwhom we've been arrested in charge and
others who have left yet to beidentified. And in twenty nineteen, we
have already seen at least eleven transgenderpeople fatally shot or killed by other violent
means. So the people who arebeing killed are black transgender women, yeah,
(22:03):
in particular, but transgender people areparticularly at risk because of their identities.
So support organizations that are doing thework of protecting those those people.
And also I have a recommendation becauseyou mentioned podcasts to do. Yeah,
um extensive episodes on mush by Johnsonright now. The best one I listened
(22:27):
to was by the podcast Deviant Women. I think it's the latest episode is
really really good, So let's golisten to that if you want more information
on her life and on what shedid her legacy. It's really amazing.
Yes, definitely check it out allright, So because your voice is already
so strange as you can probably hear, Liz is a bit sick. She
(22:49):
has a cold, and um,yeah, So I'm gonna take over from
here, and I'm going to talkabout another woman who I think was an
affront to the gay rights movement.So every time I do a lecture on
the topic of by invisibility or byerasure, I always start my presentation with
(23:11):
a picture of Brenda Howard and Iwill also post one on Instagram so you
can have a look. And Ithen asked the audience side note, Usually
those lectures are in the context ofLGPT i Q community, so it's usually
people who are familiar with LGPT historyat least a bit, and ask them
(23:33):
whether they know that person, andnot once have I ever received a correct
answer. Most people don't know whoBrenda how It is, which I think
is outrageous. I didn't know whoBrenda how It was for the longest time.
And I'll tell you why we don'tknow who she is, or why
many of us to know who sheis in a second. And I'll also
tell you why it's not just outrageous, but also a structural problem. So
(23:57):
here we go, okay. BrendaHoward was also born in New York City
in the Bronx on the twenty fourthof December in the year nineteen forty six.
So since she was born on thetwenty fourth of December, she is
what we in Austria called a christKindle. And if you've listened to our
Christmas episode, do you know whatI'm talking about? If you don't,
(24:18):
go listen to the Christmas episode.All right. So, and she died
in the year two thousand and five, ironically, sadly ironically, in June,
which is Pride Month. And youwill learn very soon how Pride Month
actually is related to Jim Brenda Howardand what she has to do with it
all. So, Brenda Howard wasan anti war activist, in this case
(24:38):
against the Vietnam War, and somebiographies also state that this activism is what
originally politicized her. She also wasa sex positive feminist. She lived a
polyamorous life. She was an LGBTacute activist and more specifically later on then
also a bisexual rights activist. Sheparticipated and planned LGBT rights actions for over
(25:03):
three decades, and she was anactive member of the Gay Liberation Front,
act UP that you already heard about, Queer Nation, the Coalition of Lesbian
and Gay Rights, and she wasthe chair of Gay Activists Alliance. So
hold on a second. So BrendaBrenda, Brenda Howard was in many of
(25:26):
the same groups that Marsha P.Johnson was in Gay Liberation, Yeah,
exactly, act UP, like allof the like big activist groups that were
part of the like beginnings of theLGBTQ movement. Exactly. But it's also
not very surprising because they were bothin New York and that's just what happened
in New York, So they wereboth part of that. The most important
thing, however, is that withouther, there would be no Pride parade,
(25:49):
there would be no Pride Month,because she basically organized the first lgpt
IQ, which wasn't called lt IQback then, the first like gay Pride
March in nineteen seventy and that wasintended as an anniversary celebration of the Stonewall
riots that Liz just told you about. So it was the first anniversary and
(26:11):
they were basically doing a parade.Because of that, she also originated the
idea for a week long series ofevents around that Pride Day, and that
basically became the genesis of the annualLGBTQ Pride celebrations that are now held around
the world every June. But shealso popularized the term pride together with two
(26:34):
other activists, with bisexual activist robertA. Martin who was also called Donnie
the Punk, and gay activist CraigSchoonmaker l Craig Schoolmaker, I think,
and they basically came up with thatterm Pride as the term for the festivities.
And that all of that is whyshe is often referred to as the
(26:56):
Mother of Pride. Nice. Yeah, Also, I mean she did so
many things. So in nineteen eightyseven, which is the year I was
born, yea, she co foundedthe New York Area Bisexual Network and she
helped establish all kinds of services forthe bisexual community in and around New York.
She was a member of BIPACK,which is a bisexual political activist group.
(27:19):
She was a regional organized organizer forbinet USA, a co facilitator of
the Bisexual sm Discussion Group, andthe founder of the first Alcoholics Anonymous chapter
which was targeted specifically at bisexuals,which is really amazing because bisexuals, in
all studies that we know or thedata that we have, are the one
(27:41):
sexual orientation group that when it comesto health outcomes basically are the worst worst
of including gays interests. Is thisbecause bisexuals don't feel included or recognized or
accepted within LGBTQ community? What aninteresting question, I think. I mean,
(28:06):
I think it's a complex conglomerates ofdifferent reasons. I think one of
the most important ones is that bisexualsare neither part of the strict majority nor
are they really part of the gaylesbian community, and very often stigmatized in
both of those groups, so theythey often feel like they don't have like
(28:32):
a community to begin with. Yeah, many reasons. Bisexuality is very often
rendered and visible in our society.It's existence is questioned. People who are
bisexual often like have like the continuousexperience of their sexuality and identity being questions.
(28:52):
So there's many many aspects that leadto bisexual people having worse health and
particularly worse mental health, suicidality,depression, anxiety, and of course all
of that then can lead to drugand alcohol abuse as a coping strategy.
And that's the reason why it's veryvery it's like just a very cool thing
that she, yeah, like foundedthis Alcoholics Anonymous chapter which is targeted at
(29:18):
bisexual people. Also very necessary,necessary, probably, And she of course
also worked on the March on Washingtonfor Lesbian and Gay Rights, the Margin
Washington for Lesbian, Gay and byEqual Rights and Liberation, where she was
co chair of the latter contingent.So I mean, I could go on
forever. But basically Howard was abisexual woman, but she was also openly
(29:42):
polyamorous and she practiced BDSM, soshe also is what we could call an
affront to the gay rights movement.Yeah, and BDSM is totally one of
those things where like people are okay, like making fun of it in movies
and they're like or they're like fiftyshades like, oh, I'm going to
play around with it, but theydon't. They don't really want to think
(30:03):
about people who do that as alifestyle, and they don't want to think
about what that means and why they'redoing it as a lifestyle. Very similar
to why people don't want to likeactually think about and confront like bisexuality and
that that is a legitimate that theseare things that are an affront to the
power dynamics and the social dynamics thatwe have in terms of sexuality and gender,
(30:30):
and they really turn turn those dynamicsand those binaries on their head in
a lot of ways, both bisexualityand BDSM. B DSM like takes the
power dynamics that we have in societyand says like every relationship is essentially like
it deals with power, you justdon't realize it, and we're going to
play around with that power in away that is like pleasurable and maybe painful,
(30:55):
and but that interrogates like the thatpower. But people don't like to
Those are two identities where people don'treally like to think about them too much.
Yeah. Also the same goes forasexuality. I think it's also something
that's completely rendered invisible. And wehave a great episode about asexuality if you
(31:18):
want to go, yeah, listento that. What I think is just
sad for the whole of society,even people who are not bisexual, people
who don't practice BDSM, for peoplewho are not asexual, is that each
one of us can learn so muchfrom people with other sexual identities. I
like, I learned so much fromthe beds M community about consent. Yes,
(31:41):
even if I don't practice MEDIOSM.I learned so much from reading about
asexuality when it comes to expressing mysexual identities, because they have such a
when it comes to expressing my formsof attraction, because they have such a
varied vocabulary of differential between sexual attractionand romantic attraction and esthetic attraction, and
(32:02):
it just is so it just enricheseveryone to respect and talk about talk with
other people that have a completely differentconcept of their own sexuality as you do.
Yeah, No, I totally agree. I mean the issues of consent
that that BDSM brings up, Likeit is if you go to any BDSM
(32:23):
club, like everything there is aboutconsent, and they will do workshops on
how to talk about consent and howto think about consent and how to how
to really make that a central aspectof every like all play, all scenes.
And I think that that's really interesting. If we're not open to learning
(32:46):
about different ways to talk about sexuality, in different ways, to talk about
consent, in different ways to approachidentities, then we are never going to
evolve as a society that appreciates people'srights and people's identities. Things have changed,
(33:07):
language has changed, language is constantlyevolving. It's not up to those
communities to teach us how to respectthem, and it's up to us to
learn how to respect them. Andwe can come to it from a place
of lesser knowledge and say like,hey, I don't I don't know the
right way to do this, butadmit that you don't know the right way
(33:30):
to do it, and then learnfrom that, and like I'm not perfect
and you're not perfect, and noneof us in this society are perfect.
But being open to like learning aboutthe best way to approach that is super
important. Yeah, as Walt Woodmansaid, be curious, not judgmental.
Yes. So, Brenda Howard probablyis the most striking example of what I
(33:52):
would call by a ratio. Shewas such a significant part of the LGBT
community and without how I would haveno pride parades. But still very few
people know her and the reason forthat is, as I said, by
Erasia, by invisibility. And Iwill only touch on this topic very briefly
because we already did an episode awhile ago. I think it was episode
(34:14):
four correg about by negativity. Andalso one thing that I recommend is the
wonderful podcast Stuff Mom never told you, just did it two parts on bisexuality,
and I highly highly recommend it becausewhat they did is they invited bisexual
people and bisexual researchers to talk abouttheir own experiences with by negativity by ira
(34:37):
by erasia with judgment, but alsotalk to talk about the research and basically
about how biphobia in its most extremeextreme, like the most extreme impact of
it, can actually actually kill.And let me tell you, it is
so touching, it's highly informative,it's enraging, and it's just a brilliant
(35:00):
piece of podcasting. So please pleaselisten to it. I'll put a link
in the show notes so you canjust click on it and listen. Plus
if you speak German. In myother podcast, also TOXTA, I also
did an episode with a bioresearcher whodoes studies on the topic of by negativity
on exactly that topic, so checkthat out too. According to Wikipedia,
(35:22):
which is the actual creator of thispodcast, they define bisexual arasia or sexual
invisibility as quote the tendency to ignore, remove, falsify, or re explain
evidence of bisexuality in history, academia, the news media, and other primary
(35:44):
sources in its most extreme form bisexualerasia can include the belief that bisexuality does
not exist. Heterosexual and gay peoplewho engage in bisexual erasia may claim that
bisexuals are either homosexual or exclusively heterosexual, closeted gay or lesbian people who wish
to appear heterosexual, or are heterosexualswho are experimenting with their sexuality. A
(36:08):
common manifestation of bisexual erasure is atendency for bisexuals to be referred to as
heterosexual when they are intimately involved withpeople of the opposite sex, and to
be labeled as homosexuals when they areinvolved with people of the same sex.
And that is actually also something thathappens to celebrities when you think about it,
(36:28):
So I think one of the mostfamous examples is Freddie McCary, who
was a bisexual man who was inrelationships with women, who was even a
long term relationship with a Viennese woman. Wasn't me, but he's usually referred
to as gay. Also, peoplelike I don't know, Anna Paquin.
(36:50):
There's a very notable interview with what'shis name, Larry, I forgot his
name, like the host with theglasses, the Arry old man who looks
like a small goblin, a bity. We'll come that out. Wait,
no, I'm gonna have a lookAnna Paquin Larry King, Yes exactly.
(37:15):
I love the description of Larry Kingas a goblin. He does look
a bit like a goblin. Ohmy god, that's all. I'm not
goblin shaming him. Goblins are nice. Um. So yeah. So he
asked her in an interview that youcan watch on YouTube, because she's married
(37:36):
to a man now and she's ina monogonamous relationship with her husband, and
he was like, so you arestraight now? You were bisexual, And
then she goes on to explain howshe's still bisexual because being bisexual also can
imply being in a relationship with aman. So yeah, so this also
happens to celebrities. M yeah.But I don't want to go into details
(37:59):
about what by negativity and by invisibilitymeans, because, as I said,
we've already talked about this, othershave talked about this more eloquently than I
ever could. But I want totalk about how all of that relates to
Brenda Howard. So the LGBTQ communityas we know it today, or at
least it's media image mediated image ismostly se spearheaded by young, white,
(38:20):
able boarded sis gentlemen. Yeah,at least it's representation and bisexual people,
particularly bisexual women, who make avery huge part of the bisexual of the
LGBT community in general, and particularlythose who don't give many fucks about respectability
politics like marriage for all are oftenmade invisible. And Brenda Howard was such
(38:42):
a woman. She was a bisexualwoman, She was not very marketable,
she lived a polyamorous life. Sheat the same time the gay rights movement
fought for the right to marry.She was very radical, she was very
militant, she was feminist to practiceBDSM. And also I think basically we
have to think about the difference betweengay rights and queer liberations. So the
(39:05):
former campaigns for inclusion into existing institutions, most prominently, especially recently, the
right to marry, and the latterqueer liberation once more radical structural change,
and it calls into questions those veryinstitutions and the patrio are called queer phobic
capitalist foundations. These institutions are builtupon. So gay rights is very much
(39:29):
about respectability politics. If you lookat the whole discourse around gay marriage,
it was based on the idea ofwe are normal, We're just like you.
We also want some monogamous nuclear familyand a dog and a cat and
a picket fence. And there's nothingscarier radical about us right and doing so
gay rights And I intentionally say gayrights and not gay and lesbian rights,
(39:52):
because the gay rights movement also does, in fact focus heavily on men,
another thing that I criticize. Sodoing so, the gay rides movement also
perpetuates normative ideas about sexuality, aboutrelationships, about love, about family,
about kinship, about monosexuality, aboutmonogamy, all of that. I have
(40:13):
a friend who actually we all knowher, Amy Dreyer. She used to
be she used to organize the DenverPride Parade. And I know or Pride
celebrations generally, and I know fromher and from my experience of Pride this
year here in the DC area,that it is, I mean it is.
(40:35):
It is more inclusive, probably thanit has been in the past,
but it is definitely like it's corporatesponsored. It's a lot of like gay
white men or gay men period,but often gay white men who are like
very pleased with themselves. And itdoesn't allow a lot often allow a lot
(40:57):
of space for people who are notgay, white CIS man who probably live
in probably have relationships that are notnormative, that are not monogamous. All
that, I agreed, But Ithink the fact that Pride events are like
(41:22):
corporate sponsored has a lot to dowith with why, um, it's mostly
gay white men who are like visiblebecause that's also the demographic group within the
LGBTQ community that it is the mostaffluent. Yeah, and they can be
(41:42):
targeted by and they're mostly targeted byadvertising, etcetera, etcetera. So I
think the reason why we mostly seegay white men in the media is capitalism
basically. Yeah, no, Itotally agree. Yeah so yeah, so
Brenda Howard she was a radical sexpositive feminist, polyamorous medist and practitioner.
(42:05):
She was probably not exactly the bestfigurehead when your prime goal is the right
to marry. So I think shein many ways has also been forgotten very
intentionally, let's put it that way. Yeah. So, I think,
you know, in a society wouldgenerally have a huge problem with monosexism,
which is the assumption that everyone ismonosexual, which means only sexually interested in
(42:30):
one sex or one gender. Expression, which is just a falsity. Seventy
five of the lgpt IQ community isbisexual, and again most of them are
women, which might also play apart in why they are rendered invisible.
So yeah, please listen to thepodcast episodes that are recommended. That helps
(42:52):
probably helps contextualize everything I just said. And also think we have to start
acknowledging the huge part bisexual people andnon wanto sexual people of all kinds play
in the LGBTQ community and broader societyand the contributions they have made and keep
making in you know, lgbt inthe lgbt rights movement. Yeah, I
(43:14):
mean, and and Brenda how itis just the best example for that.
Yeah, No, I mean,I think you're absolutely right. You know,
we we we on our podcast cando our part in raising the visibility
of individuals who played an important rolein UM LGBTQ history, but particularly in
(43:34):
identities that were that have been marginalizedand are continue to be marginalized within within
the movement UM because it's not justone movement, it's multiple movements, and
the if we call it like themovement, generally we are necessarily excluding those
people who don't identify with the leadersof uh if we even have leaders of
(43:57):
the movement itself. Um, so, you know, bringing up the issues
and bringing up the identities of peoplewho are who have been marginalized, people
who are continue to be marginalized,is really important. And I think that's
part of why we wanted to dothis episode about Marsha P. Johnson and
Brenda Howard is because they are individualswho were part of Pride, part of
(44:23):
the Stonewall riots that we are justnow starting to recognize and and raise up
their identities as people who are criticalto our understanding and to whom we owe
a lot of gratitude for the workthat they did and the work that people
(44:45):
continue to do in their name.Yeah, exactly. And I would like
to end with a quote by Tom. Tom Limoncelli said that in two thousand
and five, the next time someoneasks you why LGBT Pride marches exist or
why Gay Pride Month is in June, tell them a bisexual woman named Brenda
(45:07):
Howard thought it should be. Andyeah, and one thing you can add
to that is and because black bisexualtrans women started a riot, Yeah exactly.
Cool. All right, So Ihope you learned something today I learned.
Let's see what did I learned.I learned that we need to talk
(45:31):
more about bisexual and polly women whowere leaders in forming communities that are not
just the like standard Pride parade.And I've learned today and doing research,
well, not today, but whenI was doing research for this that,
And it's not just something that Ilearned recently about something that I was reminded
(45:52):
about. We need to talk moreabout violence against trans women. We need
to talk more about violence black women. Yes, we need to talk more
about violence against women generally. Umyeah, um. And we need to
um, we need to do abetter job of raising the visibility of these
(46:15):
issues of violence against against people ofmarginalized identities period. And we need to
understand how much marginalized people with marginalizedidentities are like central, like ore in
the middle of our society and inthe middle of our communities. And I'm
not on the margins, but likea just a very like Yeah. I
(46:40):
don't want to say normal, butI'm gonna say they're they're present everywhere,
They're everywhere. One of the umone of the slogans of the queer movement
was we're here where we are dealwith it, yes, or something like
that. So I think it's verytrue. Yeah, I'm going to say
when I said I hope you'll learnsomething, I was actually talking well,
I know, I know you're talkingto our listeners, but like I you
(47:00):
know, these are things. Yeah, I will say, but it's nice
to hear that you also learn something. Yeah, I think that I'm going
to say something super cheesy, like, it's not that they're normal, it's
just that they are part of therainbow of identities, and you can't have
a rainbow without all of those variouscolors in it. I know it's super
(47:23):
cheesy, so nice. Thank youso much. All right, I think
that's a good, uh sentence toend on. We will put the links
to a lot of information in theshow notes. Check them out on our
website. Yeah, follow us onInstagram and on Twitter, rate and review
(47:49):
us because that is really important tous. And if you have any other
suggestions for um for future episodes,drop us a line. She who is
a dot com is and you canalso find all the info there. So
yeah, all right, all rightthen stay nasty nasty bye bye. Thank
(48:13):
you for listening to She who persistedthe nasty podcast. If you want to
reach out to us on social media, you can reach us on our Facebook
page She Who Persisted the Nasty Podcast, the Facebook discussion group per Sisters,
the She Who Persisted group on Instagramat She Who Persisted, on Twitter She
(48:35):
Persisted pod, or via email atShe who Persisted Podcast at gmail dot com.
You can always find us on ourwebsite She Who Persisted dot com.
Thanks for listening. We hope you'llcontinue to join us in thinking about ways
that you can fight the patriarchy,resist and persist, Stay nasty. Bye. One two
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