Daryl Jacob: My Racing Life

With the Grand National upon us, our man Dave Ord caught up with Grand National-winning jockey Daryl Jacob to find out all about his career in the saddle, in a fascinating sit-down interview.


From the early days of starting out and learning through his mistakes, to landing the Grand National in dramatic style on board Neptune Collonges, we hear the highs and lows of a brilliant career in the sport, the connections he built throughout his career, and the role Daryl is now doing after calling time on his riding days.


Sit back and enjoy!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is sporting life.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Donald Jacob, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome. It's not a commed day.
We could kick on. We're going to take you through
your career. You've been doing a bit of this, so
you've been I'm expecting a polished performance from double Jacob
with this one.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
You never get a polished performance from me.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
I've seen your rides on vto exactly what. Definitely, let's
start at the very beginning. I imagine most jockeys were
at Pony Club dreaming of the day the road of
iceous Damiel Jacob. That wasn't the case.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Most definitely wasn't the case. I was too scared. No
joking side. I yeah, I would look and I always
wanted to be a professional rugby player.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
And my brothers were good. My dad apparently was.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Very good when he was in school, so he keeps
telling us and that was my passion. And I was
quite good at rugby us to play scrum half out
half full back for Kick Kenny College and in escorting
when I was at home, and yeah, I just love
rugby when I was a kid and I was looking
if I was quite good at it, but I went
to at the time, I went and got a few

(01:06):
tests done just to see how big, because I was
quite small when I was when I was younger, and yeah,
they basically told me I was going to be too
small to be a professional rugby player.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
So that was kind of hit me hard, really.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Really them stick get that sort of God, And it's.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Been fourteen thirteen fourteen, because.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Look at I'm just looking at it. You could be
a onion squirm off stupid.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, no, it was, yeah, look it was.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
I was small in mine when I was younger, and
I look, I've done an awful lot of hunting and
all that sort of stuff, showed jumping and even for
Kenny College, you know, I'd done their inter schools hunter
trials and you know, I love my hunting. When I
was a kid, and it was literally I never followed
racing at all, you know, the whole way through, and

(01:55):
I'd never watched a horse race.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
I'd never followed racing.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
And Dar Deakon, who was a local trainer time, said
to me, so, I think it'd make a really good jockey.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Why didn't you be a jockey? And I was like.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
You, No, thirty horses in a race, four hoofs, that's
a lot of horses that.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Could gallop over me.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
I can't do the match, but it's a lot of horses,
and I didn't. It just never gripped me, if I'm
being honest with you. And he kept on and on
and on to me about going up and riding some
horses race horses for him, and I obviously I didn't
have any interest in it, so I didn't do it.
And then Jack Murphy, who was kind of working for
the weekends and stuff like that from school, he approached

(02:38):
Jack and he just said to Jack, he said, look,
get him up to ride a couple of race horses
for me or whatever. And anyway, I've done as Jack said,
just go up and do it and see how you
get on. And if you don't like at least Box ticked,
no problem. So I went up to Dard Deacons one
Saturday morning before we went hunting.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
And went up the gallop and.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
I'll never forget the smile on his face. It was
like as if it was yesterday. He was absolutely buzzing,
and he said like, how does that feel. Out of
that feeling? I was like, yeah, it was all right,
it was fine. And then he was like, go down
and go again. Go again, so down this gallup, came
back up again, and admittedly like I'd never ridden a
race horse, I'd never ridden short I'd never you know,

(03:21):
from hunting you ride along and again I just had
my irons up and went up the gallop, thought nothing
of it, and he was really excited about it, and
it just it's still it didn't It didn't grip me
at all. And I remember I was going hunting then
and a few people said to me out hunting then
that day he said, oh, here a you're going to

(03:41):
be a jockey. I was like, what was like, you know,
and I was only a kid like at the time,
but it's just funny how you remember these little things
in your life as you're growing up. And I was like, no,
not and they were like, oh, we heard you're going
to be a jockey, and I was like, no, that's
not me. Whatever, And then it was just sort of
the conversation had with Daryl Deak and Jack Murphy and

(04:04):
my mum and dad, and it was kind of thought
that I would go to the apprentice school after i'd
done the junior shirt. So that was all organized and
I remember the last day of school after doing the
junior short. As we were breaking up, obviously, I was
telling my friends that it was there like a transition year.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
In Ireland, you could after your junior shirt, you can.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Have a year out to do an apprenticeship, but also
you can come back then after that and you do
your leaving short. So I was telling them my friends, oh,
I'm going to the Apprentice Center for a year, but
then I'll be I'll be back again to do my
leaving sort. And I was just very lucky with up
to the Apprentice Center and race.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
It was called.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
And I got on very very well there and they
sent me out to use the late DESI Use, and
I was just very very lucky that I had use
and the Lake Kirian Kelly, who who basically took me
under his wing whenever I was there, and he's just
basically looked after me, and he was the one who
first kind of set me off to come to England.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
And just in terms of DESI Us, I mean old
school trainer, a task master, I mean great reputage, got
jockey jockeys came through obviously, Richard. It was was that
the ideal starting point of when you look back, when
you're going intel raw to be going into somebody that
sort of setup. You needed that for the first.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Tast Oh, definitely, I think so, yeah, because obviously there's
you know, it's it's a big race in community, and
you can get lost very very quickly up there. And
and like you say, he him and his wife, they
took me under under their wing and they looked after
me when I was up there, and also Kieran Kelly did.
And it was a good grounding because you know, and

(05:45):
I've always believed, you know, a roote kind of growed
out its trees. So the roots were right, the foundation
was right, so I could grow. And it took me
a long time even to write work there. You know,
they gradually they brought me along slowly, slowly, and it
was a long time.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Before even roadwork there.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
And you know, even though I'd done an awful lot
of hunting and jumping on the ponies and stuff like that,
it was still it was ten months eleven months before
even got the jump a horse there, whereas nowadays they
go into the yard and they go in one day
and they're jumping their school and the next day that
wasn't the case of me.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
They were.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
It was just it was all now maybe I was
just a really really slow learner. I'm beginning, and they
didn't trust me to work horses or school horses.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
I have no idea, but I'll play it out that.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
They were always looking after me and they were seeing
what was best for me, and uh yeah. And so
it was a really you know, two and a half
years there at Dizzy Uses.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
It was. It was brilliant grounding.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
And when Kevin was playing the idea of England planting
the sea, that you should make them move, what was
it that may convince you in the end to get
that was the time to take that leap?

Speaker 1 (06:49):
It was I loved them caring that much and I
trust him that much. It was like if he said
jump off a bridge, I'd say, what bridge? And that
was just the relationship that we had, and it was
I remember it was. It was during the summertime or
coming into the summertime. There's a big meeting at the
Current and Barry Hills had runners and he'd obviously Kieran
had obviously spoken to Richard and wanted me to go

(07:12):
over to England just to have a look and just
to kind of, I suppose, get out of the mold
for the summer racing in Ireland. There wasn't really as
much summer racing back in Ireland back then, so just
to have a break as well. And he just he
just said to me, said, looky, you've got a week
to tell your parents you're going to England and you're
going to try and make a career over in England.
And I kind of thinking in my head and think
I'll go over there for three months, but then I'll

(07:33):
come back again. But he said to me, you know,
I wanted to look out for a job in England
because the opportunities in Ireland, you know, we had he
had as you's had some wonderful jockeys there like obviously
kar and Kelly, Garret, Cotter, Paul Wade, pt Gallaher, Paddy Flood,
Roger Lochlan, Roger Quinnen, you know, an unbelievable, you know
amount of good jockeys there in the art and it

(07:54):
was always going to be very very difficult for me.
So when I was over at Richard Hannon's, I met
a friend, a good, very good friend of mine, Karen Burke,
and he was the one who mentioned about the boss
Robert and Sally. They were looking for an amateur, and
obviously I was a conditional in Ireland, but obviously I
hadn't wrote a winner and I could turn back to

(08:15):
be an amateur. And I mentioned to to Careen one
evening and I said, look at what do you think
you know? Robert and Sally are they're looking for an
amateur point to point rider.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
It seems like what I've heard. It's a good grounding.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
And he said, get off that phone now, make sure
you ring them and don't ring me back until you've
got the job.

Speaker 3 (08:35):
So I was like, all right, okay, So I just
made the caller.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Rang them up, and then I rang back here and
they told me come down for a kind of an
interview or whatever you want to do it. And then
ranked here and said I go down for an interview
on this Sunday Sunday morning. Fine, perfect, And I remember
going down to the buses and then walked in the door.
Sally was down in the couch and you go into
the kitchen and there's kitchen table out the size of this,

(09:01):
and the boss was sitting up there having a cup
of tea or whatever.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
Sally was down in the couch. When can you start, dear?
And I was like Hello, how are you okay? She said,
when can you start?

Speaker 1 (09:13):
And I was like, well, obviously I need to speak
to to Robert and stuff like that, don't.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Worry about him. When can you start?

Speaker 1 (09:21):
He said, I want an Irish jockey and I was
like this is this is yeah, like obviously I'd never
met him before.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
But so we rode out.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
I rode out with the boss and literally me and
him just hit it off straight away. I felt so
comfortable in his company, like even the first ten minutes
i'd met him, and I just thought to myself, whatever happens,
it would be a great way or a great place
to work for more experience if nothing else.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
And came back and Sally was still on when can
you start?

Speaker 1 (09:56):
So myself and the boss we worked it out then
that I was going to stay with Richard Hannands for
the rest of the summer and then start with them.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
I started with them in the middle of July, I
think it was.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
And yeah, and it must be difficult, young man from Ireland.
First time in England, you're hopping around, You've gone to
the honest do you look back now? I think that
was the perfect place for your ti Land And what
was your first race ride for Robert and Salid.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, I know it was. It was one hundred percent.
It was what I probably needed. And especially after when
Kieran passed away, that hit me very very hard. And
I know for a fact my life would have been
a very very different or different things would have happened
to me that if it wasn't for them, I'm not
sure where i'd.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Be that sort of support feeling in the family that
you yeah, and that.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Was only, like you say, that was only I'd only
been down the Bosses maybe six weeks, seven weeks whenever
he'd passed away, and they literally, I mean they could
tell I was in a bad way, and they took
me from my digs. They took me into their house
and I lived with them for four or five months
just to try and get my head right and just
to get to get over what I needed to And

(11:07):
they would just like to say they were just they
were like my English mom and dad, and you know
they're so supportive and and everything that they've done for
me really.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
And I know you never do get over the loss
of a friend like Cavan, but did you look back
and what you've achieved, and that the key role that
he played in setting you on this course. Caven that
this story wouldn't be there without that push, would it. No?

Speaker 1 (11:28):
And like say, everything that I like, think, everything I've achieved,
I've achieved for both of us, you know. And I've
always been that way from you know, from the very
first winner that I've had.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
I've always had it, you know. And he's been my inspiration.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
He's been he's been the person that I've wanted to
achieve everything before because I know for a fact he
would have achieved everything that I've achieved and probably had
an awful lot more if it wasn't for his his accident.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
And yeah, look at him.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Just I'm wonderful career I've had and it hasn't been
for me, is been for for both of us.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Let's talk about mister d. A. Jacob on the race
cards for the first time.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
I've actually got a picture. I got this is the
one that there is. I've actually got a picture waiting
to see this and do it.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got this is so I got
given this, I got this is my first point to
point ride.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
Here we goler lark.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Hill two fifty, which one you on Sunday at the
eleventh January two thousand and four. This is the first
day I rode and here I am free gift.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Look, oh, d Jacob, is that spoke actly? No, it's
not a.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's what did the same half brother to
winning pointer chasers swink them down the fielding two bumpers
in two thousand and three?

Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (12:53):
And the one do I not say a one next
to his? Now?

Speaker 1 (12:55):
No, he was I remember before he had that, he
had two duck eggs. He ran into bump and he
was a bit too free.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
But did he win this day?

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:03):
This is my first. This is my first, so I'll
go back and tell you a story. It's hilarious. So
Sally owners always wanted to win this silver sword.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
It's like a silver sword.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
And so to qualify, yeah, you had to never ridden
the winner beforehand, and then you get this and for
some reason, Sally's always wanted to win it.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Does she collect?

Speaker 3 (13:28):
No, it was just something that she really wanted to win.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
And all of our previous jockeys, they've all had winners
before that, and obviously I'd never had a winner before
I went there. So I was the man that was
going to deliver the silver sorce for because you had
to be you know, you couldn't have ridden the winner beforehand.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
It was a point to point in. So Novice Ryder's thing, and.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Like when I went there, she like weekly she used
to talk about this silver sword that you know that
she was going to win it and we're going to
win it together and stuff like that. Brilliant, no problem.
I was really exciting because I'd never won it in
my life, thinking.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
I might win award this year.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
Perfect and anyway, that was fine. And I remember I
rode silver Ingot for the Boss down at Exeter. This
was about two weeks before, three weeks before the point
to Point and season started. Rode silver In got down
there and there's an amateur riders race down there that day.
Rode silver Ingot and there's a jockey that couldn't ride
in the amateur riders race down there that day. He

(14:30):
was ill or I can't remember what happened. So anyway,
they asked me. I was the only other amateur down there,
So Alison Thorpe trained it. Obika A Laris was the
name of the horse, sixty six to one shot. So
I rang the boss and I said, oh, Boss, I said,
I'm just here in the way room. I said, there's
a jockey's not here. Can I ride Obick Laris in
the amateur jockey's herd?

Speaker 3 (14:50):
The race? And the boss said, what wasn't explained to me?

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Him up to the way room chattaways, Yeah, sixty sixty
one seemed like it jumps, well, no problem, great, I rode.
It only goes and wins, doesn't it.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
So I was absolutely delighted it wins.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
First winner literally come to England the whole lot yourn.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
No I didn't. I was just delighted to get a winner.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
So I was absolutely buzzing the whole way home.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
I'd ridden a winner, right, delighted.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Came home into the boss was happy and stuff like that,
and just came home with the horse box.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Went in.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Sally was sitting around the table with a point decider
that Ernie Sendel used to bring her used to bring
her sider God bless his soul, and she trained Kingscliff
him and he used to drop off cider to him
and to to Sally every week, barrel barrel of things.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
She was there.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
I had decided that and I walked in, all smiley,
what have you fucking done?

Speaker 3 (15:51):
I was like, what the silver fucking sword. Oh, she
literally went through me, for sure, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Went through I've not crossed your mind at this stage.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
No, not at all. I was just delighted the winner at.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
The moment you've been building up.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yes, So Sally was going absolutely like she just lost
the plot at me and I was like, that's really harsh.
I've just had a winner and you're but anyway, so
long story short, anyway, Sally was not happy.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
And you know what I would.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
I had twenty one winners that year, point appointing, right,
and the closest the person that won it gets so
many winners.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
They had three. No, right to this day Sally still
has she still hasn't won.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
It is still trying, but she hasn't really got the
she hasn't got the horses.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
And now she only trained two or three.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
But that was I was her golden ticket, silver silver,
and yeah, so it's fun and she's still to this dage,
we still about well.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
I think it was healthish as well as Sally. So
there you go.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, so that's just a little story.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Brilliant the almost that's the that's starting part. The next thing.
Once you've established how many years we get that to
established that before the good horses come along.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
So I was there for I've done two years point
to pointing, and then first year I was leading obviously
in the country, leading West Country rider leading, I won
so many awards down in the West Country.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yes, yea. And the second year then I was there.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Then again we had hunter chasers and you know free
Gift obviously one altogether in his whole career, I won
fifteen races on him. He was He was my first big,
you know, big ride because you know, he was winning
hunter chases, he was winning trust trust funder is another one,
and trade off was another one. And so had two
brilliant years point to pointing and writing a few under

(17:45):
rules for them. And then Paul Keane offered me a
job to go conditional. He was only in Shastby, so
he was kind of half an or forty minutes away
from the bosses. So I went to him for well,
it only really lasted ten months. I just didn't settle.
I hated it, even though I had like twenty one
winners that in that ten months from like less than fifty.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Rides, but unbelievable strike. Yeah, but I just didn't settle.
I hated it.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I didn't, So then I I booked thear Ticut. Actually
I was going back home. I was going to do
a different trade.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, I was to.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
I just really didn't settle I used to. I didn't
enjoy it at all. If I fell out of love
for the sport.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
If I just didn't want to go race even you're
having all that success, yeah I didn't.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, literally, because look at with me, if I go
and do a job, I want to do it right
and I want to give this one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
I want to be committed a hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
And I wasn't committed, and I generally I wasn't committed
to being there in that yard, and.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
I was going to go back home.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
And it was actually again it was the Boston Sally said,
look at, you can't really come back home with us
and stay here for a little bit of time, and
look at if you're not enjoying it, then well then
maybe you know, would definitely give the opportunity to come
back to us, And they had. Andrew Thornton, the stable
jockey in Rob Walford, was a conditional pro there as well.

(19:01):
So the rides were going to be for a condition.
We weren't going to be a lot for me. So
they said, well, look you can go down to Bob
Butler's he was an hour down the road, and go
to Paul Nichols's once a week and ride out and
try and spread your wings a little bit that way,
but kind of base yourself here with us.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
And that's when basically the listener came along. Then that
year so.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
And when you look at like stepping stones in a career,
the listener must have been massive.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Free gift was a big one. Was at the start? Yeah,
free gift definitely. Yeah. That that day at lark Hill.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
We had another horse that was up the pub called
and Tom Draper wrote him and he was favoring free
gift was whatever price he was. I mean he basically
ran away from from the start, but free gift kind
of and the point to point and scene.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Free gift got me going because he was a very
very good Yeah, he was a very good horse.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
So he was he was integral to my, to the
stepping stones of my and then obviously the listener.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, and the listener we all think the grade days,
the grade one day the island must have been what
a bus to go back to Ireland A winner prize
like that what what did what did that mean to?

Speaker 1 (20:05):
But you know what funny like as a jockey, you're
kind of always looking and even like back then, I remember,
you're always looking at the next day. And when I
won my first first Grade one on him, I was
racing in England the next day and I was doing
light the next day over in England. So like all
my family, cousins, aunties, uncles, they're all up at lepards

(20:27):
Down for that because I was coming back. I was
riding in the Grade one. So they all came up
and they continued the celebrations hard into the night. But
I kind of left them at six o'clock, seven o'clock,
dec I had to go back and jump.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Into the bat because I like the next day.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
So it wasn't really It's just you're kind of always
looking forward and you never appreciate the days. It's only
now really that I'm appreciating all of them wonderful days
that I had.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
And to get a different field from my horse, like
the listener, do you want you're on like a Grade
one with is it different? Is itside? Looking in it
seems about obviously we don't know.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, you sit on you know, you sit on them
good horses. The powers just like driving. You know, one
minute you're driving the Ford Fiest and the next thing
you're getting into a porch or Ferrari or something like that. Yeah,
they've just got so much and pulsion that you know,
they've got a bigger engine, bigger lungs, so much power
come from behind the saddle.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah, you can feel you can feel a power in them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
The listener, you're you're winning big races. In the headlights,
you're looking at the next career move. And it was
a little bit further down the line. That's Paul Nichols,
that's Ditcher, That's that's the next stop. Well, how do
you look back on your time there now?

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Well, actually, before we go to Poles, it was actually
Nick Williams. Really yeah, So after so Nick Williams offered
me the job then to be his stable jockey. When
I was riding for Bob Butler and obviously riding a
lot for the Boss as well, and Nick Williams at
the time, Nick James at the time William I reckon
they would have had twenty five thirty horses, not a
big number, no big quality horses. I mean obviously read

(21:55):
the Sibola, Diamond Harry, the corn corn ass Alfie Spinner.
I mean, they had loads and loads of really nice
horses there, and and Nick was a great planner, he
was he was a great person to pick out the
in the in the program book, you know, in our Roads,
I wrote Diamond Harry to win Hennessy Big Hennessy, read
the Savola won six grade ones on And then I

(22:18):
think I think it was true that job actually with
Nick Williams, Nick and Jane Williams, that then that Paul
Nichols was looking for a second jockey. And and that's
when the phone call came, just.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Back to winning Hennessy on Diamond. Have you gen when
you win in something so prestigious and for you've retained stable?
Did that does that Granwy confidence? Does that give you boots?

Speaker 3 (22:40):
That?

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Do you feel on top of the world when the
also that came and read come along?

Speaker 3 (22:44):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Absolutely, because you're, like you say, every jockey is looking
for that next good horse or that big horse to
propel him into the next big stage. But I'd grown
back an awful lot of confidence, you know, by even
just coming back to the Boston Sally and and they
believe me. And the thing about it is they've always
believed in me, and they've always wanted what's best for
Dark Jacob and nobody else, even themselves. You know, nowadays

(23:07):
some people are just kind of looking after themselves, they're
looking at their own but they didn't care about even
about their business.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
They were like, what's best for me?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
And every career move that I've made, And even with
Simon and Isaac and Anthony, the Boss made that career
move for me.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Really, so do I see his advice and guide?

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
I used to speak to the Boss about everything, I
mean everything, and yeah, so he was like, to every
decision that we've made that I've made, it's it's down
through the Boss.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
Really.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
So he installed so much confidence, in so much faith
in me that I believe then that you know, whenever
I got them opportunities, I believe that I was good
enough to be there.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
So when the feelers have put out, Nichols wants a
new second jocket, one of the great cycles in the country,
just heading toward one of the peak of its powers.
You speak to Robert take the advice. Was it a
no brain or was there any in the mind?

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Absolutely, yeah, there was. I mean, I mean, it didn't.
It wasn't. I mean, it sounds silly, but like everyone think,
you get offered Paul Nichols's a job of Paul Nichols.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
You know, it's a no brainer, you take it straight away.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
It took me definitely three weeks, if not four weeks
to decide what I actually wanted to do, because he
got to remember Nick and Jane Williams, they were going
up their stable.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
It was going up as well.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
They had good horses they had, you know, and they
still had Red Red and Civola.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
They you know, they had really really good horses in
their yards.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
So I was kind of, you know, leaving a good
stable who had had so much success for I mean,
I think I had one and three one and three
rides for them was a winner. And you know, they
were they were going well. And I love my time
down there as well. They were again they were They
were very very good to me. They looked after me
and we had a lot of fun. You know, there

(24:54):
was no even though he was Nick and Jane, they
were my bosses, you know. He they had wonderful owners,
brilliant owners that were very very easy to deal with
and to get on with.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
So it was it was a big call. It was
a big call. It wasn't an easy call.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
And but look at you know, when Nicholas had over
two hundred horses in the yards.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
You know it's obviously Ruby was stable jockey.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
There was always on a Saturday, there was always big
meetings to go to.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Ruby went to the main meetings.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
I went to the second meetings and there was still
you know, looking back in the past history his second jockeys,
you know they were going to the second meeting, but
they were nearly always riding two or three winners on
that meeting. And then when Ruby was obviously at the
time he was riding quite a lot for Willy. Obviously
Willy was starting to build up a big string over there.

(25:43):
So Ruby was actually only in England kind of maybe
two maybe three max and then so he always had
like say Plumpton on a Monday, Tuesday, wherever you are Wednesday,
maybe Ruby might be over Thursday. And then you know Friday,
what Saturday, and then he was in Ireland Sunday. Big
races are always in Ireland on a Sunday, so there

(26:03):
was there was plenty of opportunities there. Whenever Ruby wasn't
around as well. So that kind of sway that I think.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
And how different is it to suddenly find itself in
part of this machine, this two hundred horse machine.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
Do you know? I felt very comfortable in there.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
I was, like I say, I had you know, even
like looking at the statistics, I've still got an unbelievable
strike rate when I you know, for Paul, have you
know just shy of two hundred winners for them in
a very very short space of time.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
I think it's four years, you know, just under two
hundred winners.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
That's that's a hell of a hell of a strike
rate to have. So but I went in there and
I found again I think it's because I was still
involved down with the Boss and.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Sally that I know they again.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
It just felt comfortable and I was quite happy. I
went to all our meetings and it was it was
really enjoyable. I was always having winners left right in
the center for Paul, and especially during the summertime, you
go down you write some horses down at Newton Abbot
Strafford and you basically jump out, make all the run
and then you win.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
By twenty lengths.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
It was it wasn't that difficult really, that's a bit basically, Yeah,
as long as.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
You keep a leg either side and they won, as
long as you didn't fall off them.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
But yeah, I just felt it was it was very natural,
It was very comfortable.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
For me and that second jockey. Is that a difficult
position to be it because behind us there's the trophy
for Neptune Clowns. We're going to talk about him. Now.
You didn't know you're going to be on Neptune until
the start of National week itself.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, because obviously Ruby had the choice, didn't he?

Speaker 2 (27:34):
And what did do one of willers Al was it?

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (27:37):
One of Willie, Yeah, I want to say, on his own.
But Ruby, unfortunately, God, he ended up breaking his arm.
I think on Zicanda. I think maybe the day beforehand,
I think, but so he ended up not riding in
the race, or maybe it was on the day I
can't remember, but Ruby ended up I'm sure he ended
up getting hurt either on the morning or the day before,

(27:57):
so he didn't actually ride in the Grand National. I
think Paul end up switching on to him, but I
think it was on his own, I'm not sure. So, yeah,
I got the I got the call up on him,
and you never sat on him in a race at least, No,
I never sat on him in a race. And I
school him that week I schooled him. I think it
was the Tuesday or the Wednesday or something like. That
was the only stime we got to school him.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
And what was your national record like before then? You
have good spins round?

Speaker 3 (28:20):
Yeah? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
On my first ever ride, Filson run one hundred to one,
he finished fourth. Yeah, Maljimar was Managinemar ran really well.
And then I think I fell off him the next
year and but yeah, no, I like, yeah fifty six. Yeah, No,
it wasn't like it wasn't It was decent.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
It was decent. But this way I didn't fall off
every time. But I didn't.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
I didn't put him on the floor every time I
rode in him. At least I got around.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
John ja O'Neill famously never got bounded at all. Yeah,
and if you ever did, absolutely one of the great jockeys.
So it's gandassal day. Are you thinking this fellow could win?

Speaker 3 (28:54):
This?

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Is that the sort of belief you've got as you're
heading to the start.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
I went to be fair, the great John Hale said
to me when before he went down, he said, look
at if he's not enjoying, and make sure you look
after him, put him up. So I kind of really,
when you know, when an owner said that to you here,
you kind of put ease because and and then and
to be fair, I love that horse, and I I
felt I always felt so sorry for for Neptune when
I was in there, because it was a here of

(29:18):
Kato's starr and them, and they always got the heart,
you know, they always got the publicity. Cameras are always
down there for them too. And poor old Neptune was
in the corner on his own, just kind of looking
over his stable door and look at it everyone hugging
and kissing Kato and them. And so I used to
go over to myself and I used to rub him
and pat it's okay, it's okay, Neptune. Someday, I said,

(29:39):
you'll beat them. So I used to me and Neptune
used to have our own conversations when everyone else is
with Kato and Denman. I used to go over to
Neptune and and hug him and cuddle them and kiss
and said, don't worry about mate, you'll get you get
your big day, don't you worry about obviously not thinking
I was going to win a grad National on him,
but yeah, I just I just loved him.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
I it's just such a lovely, honest horse.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
He was and real kind natured horse, and I just
fell in love with him from just pat them so.
But I never got to ride him out until literally
the three days before the Grand National.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
That was the first time I wrote him out.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
At the Grand National white launch for the twenty twenty
five Rights, they played snippets of the race and I
hadn't realized right at the start you see them jump
off and towards the back and rolling along medly is
Davil Jacob on Neptune columns. At what stage do you
think he was warming to it? Yeah, this is going
to be all life.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
God, I remember that.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
I literally riding like, yeah, yeah, please got a little
bit faster, we've got to.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
Go, And yeah he was.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Honestly, he just took such it took a bit of
time to warm up, but he actually when he went
down to the fence's mind, he was very clever, very neat.
But they went so hard that day, you know, even
like it's mad.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
He was. He was placed in a gold Cup. You know,
he had won Grade ones.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Look, he wasn't the fastest horse in the world, but
I was just thinking I was. I was so not
out of my comfort zone. But I wasn't far off
at for the for the first mile and a half
of that race. And I only really started to come
back into the briiler really when we come across the
Melling Road coming into the home straight before we kind
of turned towards the chair really and then I kind

(31:19):
of came on to it then, and then I could
find my founder. I felt I always had a good
rhythm because I kept him in the comfort where he
was happy jumping from.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
But actually when he started grabbing.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
The bit then and really sort of taking me forward,
like taking me passing one, passing two, passing three, was
literally halfway down once I jumped the big open ditch
the third fence on the second circuit, that's when he
started he actually started to take me a bit then.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
And is that the part where you think we could
be in business here?

Speaker 3 (31:49):
No, I don't. I never thought that.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
I never actually think about winning the race until literally
you can buy the.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
Canal turn and you turn, you know, turning for home.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
Basically that's when I realistically, I've always had it to try,
and that's when you start. If you're in that, if
you're lucky enough to be in that position or near
enough in the race, then then you can maybe start
trying to plan a race and who you're going to follow.
You always follow different horses or you try to follow
different horses and the whole way through the race, because
obviously don't want to be following a bad jumper or horse.
It's not taken anywhere. So you know, there's an awful

(32:22):
lot of prep goes into a national riding in the
National and yeah, so from there then.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
I was just trying to make a make a little path.
Then who I wanted to follow, who I thought.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Was going, well, he looks like he's going well, so
let's do that. Let's try and follow them. And yeah,
so there was really.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
One thing that struck me watching the replay again of
all the stride you've ever seen on a horse at
a fence, of all the moments you've got gone for
and they've come up for you, Neptune at the last
in the nasty one you jump from fourth into second.
I mean that what I buzz That must have been.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
To to go down to the last and actually remember it.
He actually seen the stride because I was I was
row and row and rowing, and it's one of those
things you're just like, please meet the last and a
good stride. But actually he's seen it, and he actually
he accelerated himself into the fence and he actually met
it on it on a good stride. But that's how

(33:17):
clever he was. He he actually spotted defense himself. I
was rowing rowan hoping that I was going to meet
it on a good stride, but actually I felt him
underneath me. I felt him lenting it. So I went go, go, go,
and just yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
And then they got the small matter cleared, the last
few and second place, get past the one in front,
and you did that in the very last side.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah, and then Sea Bass was going well, wasn't he?

Speaker 1 (33:40):
K Katie gave him a great ride, you know, watching
back on and now she was unbelievable on him, and yeah, Richie,
and then but then I still had a bit of
ground to make up the under on the front to it.
But then I knew then I had Katie beaton. Once
he went by the elbow, I knew I had Katie
beaten so literally, you know, I asked Neptune for everything

(34:00):
that that he had basically, and you know he duly
gave me everything and and more really and to get
his he's I mean, I was always taking the piss
out of people with big noses because.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
I've got a big nose.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
But I'm glad that had a big noses mad and
he managed just.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
To get that well, just in case I can.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
He just got that nose down right at the right time.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, did you know you'd want?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
No?

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Actually, Paul Nichols said to me, Yester, He said he
knew he'd won that race, didn't he? And I was like,
how did you know that?

Speaker 3 (34:29):
This is the way? Yes? How do you work? That was? Just?

Speaker 1 (34:32):
What's his ears? When he passed by the winning post?
He said, one of them flickers? And it does is
one of his ears flicker? Yeah he knew a right, whatever,
But yeah, that was I didn't have a clue. I
literally promise you. I only stopped pushing whenever I seen
Richie mclernan and stop pushing on the corner just because
it was just too close.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
Man, It was just too close.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
And how long did that white scene between crossing the
line and therever, did you know what your number was?
Were you ready to be?

Speaker 1 (35:00):
I look down to see what my number was, and
I was just praying and hoping that they were because
that's what they do.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
And the winner of whatever his number, and then.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, it was. It felt like a lifetime, I promise you.
I mean it could have been only thirty seconds. I
have no idea, but it felt like a lifetime. And
then the more it was going on, I was just
like praying. I was looking up the care and then
I was praying. I was thinking, well, like, if it's
going on this long, like I mean, look, we'll.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
Take it dead.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yea, I'll take I just don't want to be on
the losing side of it.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
I'll take a dead heat.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
And yeah, I mean yeah, when it took, it just
seemed to take for everybod whenever he call out Neptune,
It's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
That's a career defining moment. That's a life defining moment.
There's a very small, slight band of ridden Grand National
winners right there right at that moment. Did it feel it?

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Did you?

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Did it sink in? Yeah? It did?

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Because it's the race like since you know, since I
went to Daisi uses. The first Grand National I watched
when I was fifteen or I think it was fifteen,
was Papion when he won the Grand National. When des
Us and Ted Wats are very good friends. Ruby used
to bring Papillon over to the Cura to go around
the miles stand that, you know, to train them for

(36:13):
the the Grand National. And whenever he won, we all
backed it, like when I were in the yard and
stuff that and there was huge I just remember, there's
huge celebrations, huge buzz the whole way around killed there
at the time, big big celebrations, and I thought, there,
that's one race I'd love to be involved in, never

(36:35):
mind winning, but just love to be involved in it.
Just for me being over there. It just everyone, you know,
just the world watches it. And I didn't realize because
I'd never really followed race and I'd never watched it
before really, so I never so that was my first
memories of a really winning the Grand National.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
So that tom Clan did that live up to that Billain, I.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
Mean, it was unbelieve it just but even I got
some buzz out, like the first time I rode in
the finished fourth and Filson run one hundred to one.
I thought, I've really got to try to come back
here every year. I've really got to try and conquer
this race. It was the one race in my head
I'm going to conquer that really really was wanted to conquer.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
And yeah, like you say, it was to win, it
was unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
But then again the next day, I literally I didn't
get home till half ten because after the race, a
really good friend of mine, Nord Peey, he got a
fund he actually broke his legs, so he was in hospital.
So after done all the media and all that sort
of stuff, I went back to see here and he
was in hospital. So I went to see Ker and

(37:42):
he was in here, and Nord Pheeley went to see
him in hospital. Show was with him for an hour
and hour and a half and then by the time
I got home then she was half eleven, twelve o'clock so.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Morning.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, basically, did you say anything to Richie mcclaran, you
two were win that moment you said you would have
hated to him out the other side he's in a
convaway room. I'd imagine he has come out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
No, we we had we had we had some some words,
but obviously, and I just remember looking at me and
Richie mccarnal are great, great friends, really good friends, and
I looked across at him whenever they announced it. I
mean obviously I was, you know, unbelievable for me, static
for me to win the race. And then I looked
across at him and and I I generally my heart

(38:25):
did sink a little bitfore him because you know, that
was just so close. And I don't know what I
would have been like if if my if I had
been called a second and you know, I went and
I gave him when I was back in, I gave
my huge and had a quick chat and then I
had to do my sort of things. But I mean,
what can you say to someone like that. You can't
you know what I mean, You can't really say. I
just I give him a huge, and we said a

(38:46):
couple of things and.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Was refew because you weren't a minded beating.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
There's a few, yeah, there is a few. Actually say,
I take quite pride in.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
That Richie was He's he's a fantastic jockey mind and
an even better guy.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
So it was it was a tough not for him
to swallow.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Mind, that was a highlight at the time at Ditch.
That was absolutely brilliant. I mean the rest of the
time with the Paul how do you look back on
it now? Did and how did when did you know
it was coming to an end? When did you realize
time to move on?

Speaker 3 (39:22):
You know?

Speaker 1 (39:23):
I think it was around the Christmas time. Yeah, obviously
Ruby went back and Ruby went back and and like
you say, my best relationships have been all about trust
people that trust me.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
I trust people.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
But for whatever reason, when Ruby went back, the quality
of horse wasn't there. And you know we were, we
were getting plenty of winners, but we just had no
we had no standouts.

Speaker 3 (39:47):
We'd no you know, we'd no genuine grade one horse.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
And I think it was the coming up to Christmas time.
We've been a little bit before that, a little bit
of thing things, you know, we don't need to go
into them. But the big book saga that was that
was handled very very badly. And then I suppose coming
into Christmas time when I finished second on.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
Sed Blur was one of them. Salub It was another one.
And then I got the treble up for finishing second
and yeah, you.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Tell the start it to us on Spotlight when you
were coming back in on said the blur, that's the biggest,
that's the biggest we ever had in that.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, that was definitely the That was definitely the biggest
route I've ever Yeah, Paul came out and we met
me on the course on the racetrack and we literally
tore stripes into each.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Other to say this, you're coming in the oh.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, I mean it was there for everyone to see.
It was there for everyone to see. But you know,
I pulled up on that, said blur ANDed Blow didn't
want to go by.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
I mean, the record is there, is his record there.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
And I generally believed, honestly, and this is why I
probably lost the plot. I actually generally believed I gave
him an absolute peach And as a jockey, I've always
been if I've given us a bad ride, I'll put
my hands up sat I'm sorry that was terrible, but
I generally believe that day I gave him the beast.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
I do think it was up to high five.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
And literally just tore into each other the whole way
back into the paryd Ring and and Donna Blake, she
was the head traveling girl there at the time, and
she just listened, go to go, and I away literally
got the saddle and went back in, waded in to
number two spot, went in and I remember, I just
I mean, it was so bad at me really now,

(41:42):
Ginger was there, my valid, and I just literally threw
the saddle onto the table and one of the irons
came up and absolutely busted him in the elbow, kind
of kind of hit off the side of his face.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
So angry, so angry, and anyway, that was it.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
But then you've got to pick that saddle up, give
it to Paul another one.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
To be fair, I gave it to the assistant and
gave it to the assistant and he was just like,
it's done, it's done and dusted. And I went in
and I had I had a hug and a cuddle
would change my Valad went down to the back of
the back of the ware room as ascot and he
was just said, listen, that's done forget about it.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
And I said, what about your elbow? So don't worry
about my elbow. So that's fine, but just go out
there do your thing.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Did he say anything to you about per Did Paul
speak to you when you've gone out there? Did he
say anything after now.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Literally I was just silence. I spoke to the owners.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
I spoke to the owners, came back in and I
just remember coming in. I was it was one of
those things.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
You either laughed or you cry about.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
I just literally came in and said, oh well, I
came into Balad and he was abusing me, joking that
he was abusing me, and I said, just give me
a hugin and we kind.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
Of laughed and joked about and it was it was
just that, that was it. I knew that the right
was on the wall.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Then it was just like I didn't, to be honest
with you, I didn't think there was any comeback from then.

Speaker 4 (43:14):
Free onmissible content released daily Sporting Life Plus joined for
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(43:40):
expert tips, Sporting Life plus.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
So doub a bout Anyone's definition? That's a crap out
of the office. What do you do after three seconds
of plays around with Paul Nichols? What do you want
to whine?

Speaker 3 (43:53):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (43:53):
I tell you we went to we went to Olympia
because you sed to all the jockeys Saturday. There was
no racing then, unto obviously boxing and all the jockeys
know that. We used to go to Olympia and it
was straight into Olympia and that was always a great
Horse of the Year show and stuff like that. So
I remember Kelly was with me, we were going in there.
Jimmy Durham was with me as well, one of my

(44:14):
best friends, and we were going in there, and obviously
it was it was a horrific day. I mean, there's
no he can't brush over. It was a terrible day.
And actually the horses all ran well, actually ran well. Yeah,
decent price. Petty Zig was a decent price. But it
all started with Cedri Blood. And so I remember ringing Fitzy.

(44:37):
He was he was brilliant for advice and all that
at the time, and he was.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
He was really good to.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Me actually, and because he'd been there, done that. But
the t should before and she had a good chat
with him and the car and the way into London
for about half an hour and just ran over a.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Few things and what to say and.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Stuff like that, that great bit of advice from him,
and then literally I promise.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
It as I put the phone down from FIZZI Paul Nichols, Oh, no, did.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
You generally think twice about it's in the green button
to accept it?

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Yeah? I did.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Actually, yeah, I thought, I just I think I don't
know what I could do with this in a round three,
four or five of argument. I just I generally I
didn't and anyway, so I thought, look, I might as
well just get it over and done with. Just bite
the bullet anyway. All right, Yeah, where are you? I said,
I'm just on the way into Olympia. He said, I

(45:34):
want to see in the office tomorrow morning. I said,
look at Paul, I said, I'm going to Olympia. I said,
I won't be in the office tomorrow morning. I tried
to be nice about it. I said I won't be
in I said, a lot of planned this for a
long time.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
It's what we all do.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Said you, I'll see you in the office tomorrow morning,
and I said and again I just went red then
and I just like with few, I said, no, I
won't be in the morning. I said I'll be in
Monday morning. But I said I will not be in
the morning. And he was like, you will be, you
will be in tomorrow morning. I said, Paul, I'm just
telling you now. I said, I won't be in the morning,

(46:07):
so don't expect me in the morning. And then I
think he hung up on me. Actually, oh, you should
have been quick, but that, to be fair, it actually
ruined my night because I was it was just like
so many things are running through my head and you know,
thinking I'm going to get sacked and and everything. Because
it was just so I rang back FITZI. I said, listen,

(46:33):
this is a situation. What do you do and blah
blah blah, and he said, look at, you're not going
to solve it.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
And tomorrow and send him a message to.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Say, look at, I will be in, but I will
be in Monday morning. And I said, look, we'll have
plenty of time to run through Monday morning, new week,
new chapter. And funny enough, Sally and the boss always said,
you know, start a new chapter, turn over the page,
and and so anyway, I text him and said, look At,
I'm going to Olympia.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
I said, I'm really, but I won't be there in
the morning. I said, look forward to seeing you on
Monday morning and we can run through no Monday morning.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Turned up Monday morning and yeah, we had a heat
at the base.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
And do you still think it was a bad live?

Speaker 3 (47:16):
No?

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Generally no, because I went we went through we actually
went through all the races.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
And we had a bit of discussion there.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
But actually what I'm probably going into a little bit
in depth about the whole thing now is because there
was racing on the Friday there as well, and there's
racing on the Saturday.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
And one one instruction Pole gave me was.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Whatever happens on the Saturday, I wasn't to go down
the inner and you know, to come off onto the
better ground, which obviously made sense, didn't I. You know,
the worst of the ground was down the inner. It was
soft ground, soft, nearly heavy. So I went down the
middle and Aidan Coleman got up me inside on who's
on a cobo? And yeah, so he beat He beat

(48:00):
me anyway, So that was that was fine. We went
through all the races and actually Paul could see where
I was coming from. But obviously Paul being a true winner,
and you know, he's and and that's and I admire
him so much, and I get on with him so well,
you know, and I admire it's like it's to him,
it's winners are nothing. Second means nothing to him, which
is great. But obviously at the time, you know, I

(48:22):
wasn't quite feeling because I still think the horst that
is very very best to finish second. And you know,
so look as anyway, Paul could see where I was
coming from, but he didn't obviously want to you know,
hit winners is what he wanted, and it didn't.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
It didn't happen.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
So anyway, that was fine, and so I rode from
I wrote him then again the whole way we put
that side and it was fine.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
It was just it was just best to look forget about.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Bad day at the office, move on, blah blah blah.
So that was fine, and then yeah, and then all
the loads. Then after Christmas, then over Christmas time had
a good time. From over Christmas time into.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
The New Year was good.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
New Year's Day was good at Cheltenham, and yeah, Rose
led to Cheltenton.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
And that was the end of the lis. It was
like the amount of bad luck involved in it, though,
is InCred When you look back, you thought somebody, somebody
could have given you a bag that way because the
gay thing stacked up.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Yeah, and it was.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
But the problem is, though and I've always said it
was like David Moy's taken over. It's the very same year, actually,
David Moyes took over from Sir Alex Ferguson. He was
on a heiden to nothing and me taking over from
you know, one of a person.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
That I've idolized, Ruby Wallas for so long.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
It was a pleasure to be in his company and
even to be second jockeyed him. I idolized him. I
love the way he rode. You know, he was an
absolute genius on top of horse. And he was coming
over twice a week, three times a week, whatever it was,
and he was riding winner after winner to the public,
to the media, he was god, which he was, and
he was a fantastic rider. And you know, his CV

(49:52):
is there for everyone to see, you know, and then
you've got like me coming behind him when we didn't.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
Have the quality of horses.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
You know, it was always going to be it was
always going to be a mission, and you know, mission
impossibly it was.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
It was it was going to be something.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
But I needed to back and I needed to trusting
from Paul and the owners, and I didn't have it.
And and like you say to me, you know, my
best relationships, I've been untrusted. Unfortunately, there was no trust
after Christmas time.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
That was it.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
And the tell them ended with the injury which ended
your season. I mean, mentally, how hard is that to
be going through all this everything's going on and then
you pick up this injury that you know, that's me
on the sidelines for I don't know how long you
out I was.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
They gave me, Yeah, they gave me ten months before
because I had to have my elbow completely rewired, I
had to have a plate put in my knee, broken,
my leg, my shoulders, so they gave me kind of
ten months. But again I didn't want that to you know,
I didn't want to be able to sad for that long.
So I worked incredibly hard, you know, after a mentally

(50:58):
very very tough year, you know, I kind of you
know again, I had to come back and had a
point to prove, didn't I Because it was such a
disaster that year, you know, when you look at back
at when you look back at it now, even though
I was riding loads of winners for Paul, it was
a it was a completely not a disaster.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
And how much.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
You turned into Robert and Sally to Kelly that' support
network a rounding that time? Are they the people who
helped you get ready to turn over that next chapter?

Speaker 3 (51:23):
Or it was without doubt.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
I mean Kelly's been there from like I met Kelly
when I was nineteen, when I first came over to England,
and she's been there through all the highs and lows.
And for sure, I mean she's been unbelievable to me.
She's she's taken me through or got me through the
toughest some of the toughest.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Times in my career mind.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
And you know, also having the Boss and Sally there
as well to relay things to them, to talk to
them about everything that's going on and stuff like that,
and you know they were you know, I think then
I got the job with q Card for the bishops.
I mean that was a great leg up, That was
a great vote confidence.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Was that bolt from the blue? Did you think that
could happen?

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Was? No? Absolutely? Completely? Yeah, completely.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
Joe Tizzard wrote rang me one day and he just
said to me, he said, like is he'd obviously retired
and he just said, look it would you be interested
in riding Q Card and the bishop's horses are looking
for someone to ride their horses for the year.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
They've got four horses. Absolutely, I'd love to ride their horses,
you know.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
And to get you know, to lose a job like
that and then to get the leg up on a
Grade one horse, a genuine great horse in Q card
was a huge votal confidence. And then obviously in the
process Simon had wonderful and that's the kind of a
genuine man that Simon is. When I was injured to
six weeks after I was injured, Sam and obviously the

(52:46):
you know, Sam was obviously going to get the job
because he'd ridden a lot of Paul's horses when I
was injured.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Yeah, he was the obvious one to get the job.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
And Simon rang me completely out of the members in
Donegall at the time, and he rang me one morning
and just said it was hi, darl Simon, and heir here.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
And I was thinking about Simone, Semon, I know that name,
another name, and I'd only ridden a couple of orders.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
He had purses with Paul, and I'd only ridden a
couple of them, not very much at all.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
And yeah, so he rang me and just asked me.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
How it was and everything, how his recovery going and
all of that sort of stuff, and I just said, yeah, lovely,
and I was I was mystified why he rang, And
he just said to me, he said, look at I'd
love to help you get back on your feet. If
there's any an opportunity that I could help to give
you a ride or to get you back on your feet,
or if you need any help or any anything, please

(53:45):
don't be afraid. You've got my number. Now give me
a shout. And I was like, what a really nice man.
I got off the phone, what a really nice So
I remember I texted him that evening. I said, look,
I'm still a bit amazed why you rang, or not amazed,
that's not the right word.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Yeah, but like I really appreciate your your your phone call.
Thank you very very much.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
And then that was sort of We just kept texting
and then he rang me two weeks later after that,
asked me how I was getting on, and we got
on great, and then he was going off on business
to it was Istanbul or maybe Turkey or some of
that for a month and when he was away, we're
just texting small and I got for that. That's when

(54:31):
I got for the bishop's job. And then he came
back and he mentioned, would I be interested in meeting
him for lunch?

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Yeah, I'd love to meet you for lunch.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Grand, no problem, And went down there, had lunch with him,
and I just said to me, like in your line
of business, I'm looking for a sponsor, which if you
knew of anyone, I'd be greatly appreciated of it. And
he went away and he thought about and that's when
he came back and said to me, would it be
interested in right as a second jocket in behind the
stable jockeys to him and Isaac?

Speaker 2 (55:04):
And so we've got two card me the bishops. And
then you've had this conversation Assignmon. Do you then start,
did you do you think, well, how big is this operation?
Because you were obviously a couple of uss at Paul's.
How big were Simon and Isaac at that stage?

Speaker 1 (55:17):
But they weren't as big as what they were now
for sures. But they had a good decent quality of
horses Matfelair. I think it just won anty over the
big fences and they had, you know, they had a
couple of really nice to two milers as well with
Nicki Henderson. The majority of horses were with Nicki Henderson
actually at the time, and they have a pipe, had

(55:40):
a few but yeah, it just I mean, fair play
to Simon and Isaac mine because I could imagine it
took me a bit of time to bed into it,
you know, to get my confidence back up and you know,
to feel really part of a team again and to
have that trust because you know it was broken quite badly.

(56:00):
You know, I was at fairly rock bottom. And then
with q Card, I felt like q Card needed the
wind operation. Whenever I was riding him, they didn't want
to get a win his wind done. So then again
that was yeah, he was stopping in his races and
then so that was again that was knocking my confidence
because I was feeling something but then it wasn't getting done.

(56:24):
So yeah, and yeah, so that was again that was
that was knocking me. So I'd imagine fair play to Simon,
Isaac and more and Anthony as well in mind, because
he's been an integral part of our team. You know,
he was the one when Simon and Isaac are away
on business.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
He was the one.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Anthony Bromley was one I was speaking to daily and
he was the one who was really always trying to
rebuild me, rebuild me as a jockey, rebuild me as
a person, rebuild me as you know, to my character,
and you know, basically he had to rebuild me from
tom the top. Really, so a lot of credit has
got to or to Anthony and for him to have

(57:02):
the belief in me as well. And yeah, so and
I just we ended up just I ended up growing
into that relationship really well and you know, so much trust.
And then Barry then actually the end of that year,
Barry actually got the job with JP McManus because he
was obviously stable jockey for Nicky Anderson.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Yeah, so he would ride the mane hosses and sweat
horses that Bobby did.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
Yeah, And then he got the job with JP McManus
because obviously ap retired. And then Simon asked me, would
I be interested in, you know, being their stable jockey
with with him and Isaac and Anthony. So yeah, and
just like he said, we just never looked back.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Can we move on to that You mentioned that Babbie,
you mentioned a p. Ruby. We've touched up on you
were riding there in the Golden Age of jockey. I mean,
that was an incredible generation, That golden generation did they
feel like at the time you're going out watching these
fellas ride and riding alongside them and finishing them, realize.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
That God, looking back, actually, how did I even get
a ride from them?

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Never mind right and winner?

Speaker 1 (58:07):
When the legends are icons of the of the sporting
game and you look at I mean, there's it was
an unbelievable bunch of unique sorting Jason McGuire, war Mass
and Carla Wellen. Like you say, Paul Carberry, you know
you go back there as a condition when you're competing
against all of them.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Thinking how did you even get going?

Speaker 2 (58:29):
As an additional, it must be intimidating to walk into
a way. It's like you walk into an office for
the first time of the new job and you have
to get to help it. You're walking into a jockey's
wayne with these names.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
It was, like you say, there was an unbelievable talent
back then when I first came over to England. That
was riding and all of these big meetings of Cheltenham Aintree,
you know, Askos, all of these big, big meetings, all
of these the Cream and the Cream were basically competing
against each other. It was so hard and like you said,
to get even to be riding in a race with

(59:04):
all of them jockeys, you know, it was an unbelievable
buzz and to follow them around and to learn from them.
But they all again but all really really nice men
at the same time, you know they were. It was
tough when you're out there in the field, when you're
racing against him.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
Mind. You had to be.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
You had to be on your your metal, you had
to be on your A game. I remember Cheltingham one
day coming down the hill. Chuck Thornton was in front
of me and I was trying to go through a
gap and I was like, Chuck, Chuck, Chuck, can I
can I come there? And he just literally closed the
door right in my face and he came back into
me and I were weighing.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
He was waiting.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I think he finished second or and I was fifth
or six or wherever. I was coming back in and
he looked at me says, it's shelting. Where do you
think you're going trying to get through a gap like that?

Speaker 3 (59:53):
And I was like, yeah, that was probably a bit
silly on you, and I I'm really sorry.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
A lot of time.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
I'm really sorry. Okay, you're right. I was wrong, but.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Like, yeah, I mean it was just no, you know,
no stone on turned with them guys. It was every
every blade of grass they yeah, yeah, it was so yeah, great,
you know, great experience righting against them guys to.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Get change up to the same guy every day. If
you go to the vay, do you know you're Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
So you start out like I've always sort of sat
beside I suppose nick.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Had a bumble tom O Bryan.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
They were kind of the two main guys thehll way
through my career that I sat beside you, and all
the way through it was pretty much yeah, the who
way through and then obviously the only you get the
closer you get to the door. The last two the
last two years I was under the door, so basically
you know, he's your next.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
But not before this successful partnership with Simon, Isaac and Antony.
Nicky was a big catalyst, wasn't in the early days
the good horses that Nikki had.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
That, yeah, we had some again, Nicky and Sophie were
fantastic people then as well for my career. Again, they
really looked after me and stole a lot of confidence
in me. And yeah, we had some wonderful top notch
piece and co Lammie Surs Caribbean boy. I mean, we
have a dream terror for it. I mean there were

(01:01:13):
so many of them, so so many of them. It
was an unbelievable association with Nicky understand yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
And such on Lamis Saurge in front of us the
trophy for the Friend Champion and I asked you when
you retired, what was your career highlight, and it's, without hesitation,
it's that day.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Yeah, definitely, so yeah, I was. That was the day
I kind of I knew what I had to do
and I just had to trust myself and trust the horse.
I finished third on him in the pri Lebarca before that,
and I came home he ran really well, but.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
I came home frustrated.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
I think whether I could have won the race, I'm
not sure, but I know for fact I could have
played my cards a little bit later and maybe eat
out a little bit more. I just felt that day
that I didn't really have much in the last half
of furlong and I knew obviously with the French champion
Hider that was stepping up again in trip, and I
just knew I had to I had to play my

(01:02:06):
cards late, and I had to do what I felt
was right for the horse. And then it was funny.
I was on them on Friday, the Friday Club, and
think he was watching it. Think he slated me the
whole way through the race because I was thirty lengths
off the leaders. No chance, I mean, what was the
point in coming here, you know, basically, And Simon was

(01:02:27):
behind him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
And Simon was telling me all of.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
This afterwards, and he said, I'm so glad you won
that race because you would have never ever up rode
for Nicky Anderson ever again.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
But I just I had so much faith in the
horse that day.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
And I generally, even if I had have finished second
or third, I still would have came home there thinking
I gave him the best opportunity to win the race.
And sometimes you know, as a jockey, you know when
you've given one a good one, and then you know
when you've given one a bad one.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
But I generally that day, but.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
I was never even though I was so far out
of my ground, I was never I was never worried.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
I've never panicked.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
I just literally I rode the horse that was underneath
me that day, and I promised you seven yards after
the line his racers run.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Really, he was, yeah, that's such.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
A especially it was, it was it was by far.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
I think it was by far that one of the
best rides I've ever given a horse to this day.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Let's top Bristol to my I mean what he did
at Haydock and there was betfair chase, and I mean,
see what sort of buzz did he give you on
you when you're in that rhythm around there?

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
He was what I used to like, literally put hairs
on the mac and where coming out because the crowd
loved him and them hate up people when they when
they fall in love with the horse, they really fall.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
In love with him.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
And I used to remember just coming out there and
even now he's thinking about us. People are all there,
They're all cheering and there are four or five six
wide grade rings come out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Everyone's cheerings, and it was like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
I promise you, Bristol just grew and statue whenever he
got on just like just got bigger there.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
And he was just an unbelievable left handed river.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
He always first down the back straight, he was always
wing that ten could literally close your eyes going into
that fence. I closed my eyes a lot, but I
could promise you could literally close your eyes and he
would always down. And that's a tricky fence, and he
always went down and always wing that fence, and then
that set him up for then all the fences the
whole way down the back straight. But he was just

(01:04:31):
a monster around there, and especially the heavier ground, the
better you just knew you could go fromper gallop and
all the horses, I could.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
Hear him chiming, they were missing them here and missing
them there where I was jumping jumping.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
I was always sort of taking him back and then
I could take them back, but then I could lend him.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Down again for the next half a problem till the.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Next jump and give a breathe and then go again.
And they were always trying to make up.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
Ground on me. And it's very difficult on heavy ground
when you've got.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Horses native jumping. He jumps, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Very very different bagging back because they're they're used the
energy to get you to keep up when you're still
ever online? Was her real.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
You know you're in business, Yeah he was.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
But he was a heart of ride mind. I mean,
everyone looks into jumping, galloping, fu great. Yeah, but he's
he was.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
He wasn't like And again maybe it's the preparation that
you put into it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Is I was always very.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Tired after riding, and maybe where it's emotions, and maybe
it's the press.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
You put into it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
But I was always always mentally, I was always shouted
after riding physically, but mentally I was always shafted at
the riding.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
But yeah, I mean when he.

Speaker 5 (01:05:45):
Used to, you know, when I needed to fences, when
you knew when you ever he needed big one, you'd
be like the still needed squeeze, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
Ninety nine point nine. He'd always he'd always.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Come for it, and then if he didn't, he would
be very good to get in, get up and get over.
Remember one time I squeezed him down to the last.
I was come on big jump, big jump, and there
was no big jump there.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
He just literally went in and up and over and hopped.
Thanks Bristo, thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
And then and then went down to the last and
he went down and again just squeezed him into the last,
and yeah, popped away and went away and won.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
But he was a brilliant horse.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
Mind a four year old winning his first run whenever
he came over was in the finale at Chepster. That
was a great one and he absolutely bold up here,
ran away from me, and I knew then he was
a good horse, because I promise you he literally ran
away with me the whole way around Chepstone heavy ground,
and he did not stop pulling me until I was
literally halfway from the second last to the last hurdle,

(01:06:50):
and I said, go on about your business. Then well
he just took off and I was like, you know,
to go around Chepstone heavy ground and pulled away.

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
He pulled. He had to be a good horse.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Later he is with Simon and Isaac. Their sort of
operation changed. It became a much more focused in Ireland.
The Clawfords established Willie's Horses. There was a lot of
big names that close Sutton, much fewer in training in England.
That changed your job completely as well, didn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
Yeah, And actually, to be fair, it completely did, yeah,
but it was it was I couldn't wait. It was
a new challenge, you know, going over to Ireland, because
you've got to remember being over in England for twenty
three or twenty years, twenty one years at the time,
So I knew all the race courses like the back
of my hand, and you know, I knew all the
jockey's styles or body languages and when the race and

(01:07:44):
stuff like that. So actually to go over to Ireland,
it was like a complete new challenge. So I really
had to engage brain. Then I really had to do
my prep. You know, different racecourses, different grounds. You know
what soft ground in Ireland is very very different to
the soft ground over here. Different jockey body language and
how they race, totally different styles of racing. So it

(01:08:05):
actually rejuvenated me again is in the fact it got
me a real buzz for it because all of a
sudden I was going to Newbury and knew Newberry. He
was going to ask a new ascot. I knew all that,
And all of a sudden I was going to Punchestown.
Could be the inside track, could be the outside track.
I was going to Fairyhouse, inside track, outside track, different grounds,
different jockeys, different races, different tactics, And I really had

(01:08:26):
to start really studying then again and really trying to
get a grip and watch loads of videos of all
the different race courses in Ireland and where to go
and where not to go. And I found that again.
I found it like I was like nearly like a
saidn ntclaimer again, a new kid on the block.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
Can you give me that flash?

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
Absolutely, yeah, because it's a completely different environment, a totally
new challenge going from where I was to what I
was doing, and I absolutely loved it. You know, I
just remember, you know, every night before I was going
to fairiouse going back and watching videos of Fairyhouse in
you know that that month, you know, three four years beforehand,
where the jockeys go, what the jockeys do, and also

(01:09:06):
like watching videos of Rachel Blackmore, Paul town and Keith Donna,
who Sean Flanning and Danny Mullen's party ons, right, you know,
all of them, watching their body language is in seeing
where they're doing and see if I could get a
little bit more of an insight into how they're riding,
whether they're going well on a horse or whether they're
not going well. So yeah, I mean it's a lot
of study went into a mind. It's you know, it

(01:09:28):
wasn't just a case of just turning up and riding
and hoping.

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
For the best.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
You know, I still at the end of the day,
I was still doing a job, and what I want
to do is I want to maximize that job and
do the best job I possibly could.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
And you want to get to know new horses. Every
year you got part of that close sutting machine. I mean,
Willie Mullen's are doing things that we didn't believe possible.
Right now, what's it like to be that close riding
out these three, four or five lots? Does it feel special?

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
Does it feel as if you were very different and
very special? Yeah? Going around that gallop, I mean it's
sets up.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
It's very deep sand, deep wood ship going around there
with horses, you know, really tanking with you, but again
just building up their core their strength going around that gallop.
It's you know, and then they just and you can
see that when they run and they gallop, there's just
there's just no end to them. The horses are absolutely
they just galloped. They'd run through a brick for you

(01:10:20):
and brick wall with you. They they're just incredible powerhouses.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
So now was the end of the creator. Now, one
thing that struck me there was two things that really matter.
I know you know you well and know there are
two things that really matter to you. Want you to
ride a winner every race track in the UK and
Cartmel whenever there's a meeting when you when you were
in there, it goes you cracked it. Eventually we cracked it.
Event did I feel like another big tick.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
That was for me. But again they're only like my
little goals that I haven't.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Nobody to do it though you say that there's not
many jockeys every.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
No, yeah, I know that, but it was sort of
you know, it's not going to be a milestone that
you know, going to be well recognized, but something it's
these little things in my little head that make me happy,
and there was something as I was getting closer to it,
it was there was Cartmel and Katrick, wasn't it Yeah?
But then too lovely places, But I never I never

(01:11:16):
rode up there to it from my career. I think
a Katrick, I think I had nine rides, ten rides
maximum my whole career, and Cartmel obviously towards the end
of it, I was trying to go there every time
and ride a winner, so obviously my but before I
actually tried to ride a winter there, I think I
only had.

Speaker 3 (01:11:32):
Six rides up there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
So they're just tracks that I never was never associated
but I wanted to do it, and yeah, that was huge.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
That was a huge satisfaction ticking that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Box and the thousand winners, which was massive. We had
it ready, we were ready show with that four years
before was in front. We got that. And then I
remember I sent a textill about the column you put
your collarm on. You've just got WhatsApp from you and
I it was God's say the things that the obstacles

(01:12:04):
that came me away to get to that thousand, that moment.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
Yeah, four weeks winners.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Winners away with momentum as well. You could have got
that another week, wouldn't you.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Yeah? I was. I was flying at the time.

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
And then obviously I had intense raffles to look forward
in the in the National and that was that was
a proper That was a proper blow. That was a
that was a hard pill to swallow. That one that
that that shattered my mind for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
Must have intense leffle is something you've been looking for,
you said, Irish National. And then and.

Speaker 1 (01:12:31):
I've always been you know, the whole year we were
building up towards and weren't we I knew he was
something special, wat able to watch it you.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
I couldn't. It was just it was too raw.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Look, don't get me wrong, I really wanted him to win.
For Simon, Isaac and Anthony underd percent I wanted him
to win.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Of course I wanted him to win.

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):
But for me, you know, from my from where I'm
come from, being a professional athlete, you know, of course
you don't want to see the horse winning because I
wanted to be on top of him when it won.
But like you know, people say, oh is you know
looking back, and it was a hard pill to swallow then,
But I'm so proud that the horse actually went and

(01:13:08):
done it because I had said Simon and Isaac and
Anthony the whole way to the year, I generally believe
this is a grand National horse, and you know, so
from that point of view, I got a lot of
satisfaction that I was right and I was proven right.
But I just wanted to be on top of them.
But I was delighted generally, and JJ s Levin is
a wonderful lad, wonderful jockey, and I was delighted that

(01:13:31):
I wasn't and I was delighted he was on him,
and I was delighted for Simon and Isaac and Anthony
because they put so much time and effort and money
into the sport. For them to have a big national
winner like that is you know, it means a lawful
lot to us.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
I was at the Double Adracing Festival. You were there
representing Salmonia, and I saw you walking over to I
passed with JJ to leg him up for the lad.
Is that like though in your the kese your favorite
car to your mate to have a spin feeling.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
No, it's not. It's for me. It's completely natural.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
And I'm loving my new role with Simon, Isaac and
Anthony and helping Anthony out whenever I can. No, it's
it's completely I love it because any little bit of
help or you know, that I can do for for
them or for JJ, you know I get.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
I get a huge thrill out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
For me to go out there and if I can
say to JJ, you know about this, about this horse
or whatever, and JJ goes and pulls it off and
goes it wins, there's a huge sense of satisfy, you know,
being satisfied because I've helped JJ, helped produce to win
that horse, if that makes sense, And you know, like
you say it, coming to the end of my career.

(01:14:40):
My time was done. I was happy with my my career.
I've achieved everything I've wanted to achieve.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
In my career.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
I've gone out on a Grade one winner for Simon
and Isaac and Anthony and Impair em Bass for me.
That chapter was closed, and I'm delighted it's closed. And
now it's like the Boston Sally always said, you know,
you know that chapters clothes, just turn over the page
and you start a new chapter.

Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
And I'm very much starting a new chapter in here now.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
And when in past one at limit, I'd drimhied down
to Brighte, got formist calls for Michael Schinners, but I
picked up my phon what this is? And he said,
you'd announced you your ther timement. Did you know that
second you pulled up on Impair past that that's made up.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
That's so if you go back twenty four hours beforehand,
I'd never planned and retire never, no, never, And I
was planning going to the end of the year, like.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
What we what what we discussed?

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
And I wrote it for me in the Novice chase
for Simon and Isaac and he was favored six to
four favors, and I don't know what happened, but he
jumped the second fence and he jumped beautifully, but three
strides later he just went wrong with me. And I
actually thought he'd done this Pelvis, and I pulled him
up and ID no, and I look down and his
his tendent, his front his front leg is front tending.

(01:15:54):
He'd quite badly damaged that, and and the vets and
everyone were brilliant and came over straight away looked after him.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
But I knew then, I knew, I knew.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
Unfortunately, the best thing for the horse would be for
him to be put to sleep.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
And that really upset me. I have no idea why,
but it just really upset me.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
I love my horses and I love spending time with them,
but and I promise you before that i'd never ever
thought about giving up. And I rode Carafon and I
were blue lord in the grade ones the next races,
and for whatever reason, it's for me was still running
through my head. And I remember speaking to Dad after

(01:16:38):
racing that day and I just said, I said, I
said I might retire tomorrow if impairing past wins tomorrow,
I said. Dad gave me a right bollocking outside the
wear them for five minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
Nichol.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
It was like, You've worked so hard to get back
from this injury and you can't. All these good horses
are coming out and you've got intense raffles in the
Grand National and sheelling them just around corner.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
It said, why you want to give up now? I said,
I don't know that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
Well anyway, I said, look, keep it to yourself, and
I went home and I went to Sean Flannigans and
Stevie and Stevie Clements and I just literally I never
slept a wink that night, just run through things in
my head. Got up the next day, went racing down
to Limerick around Kelly. You couldn't still again, I couldn't.
I just could not stop thinking about is this the

(01:17:25):
right time for me? So I said to Kelly, I said, look,
just to let you know, I said I don't know,
and I said generally I won't know until I ride
the horse, until I crossed the line. But I said
this could be my last day in the saddle. She
was like, really why, I said, I don't know. I said,
that horse just getting injured, yesty just upset me. So

(01:17:46):
you have to forget about that, You're going to ride
the Grade one and Kelly was brilliantly, and I promise you,
I wanted to go do what was best for the horse,
so I never spoke to Simon, Isaac Anthony, and there
was literally Kelly was the only one. And because I
didn't want because if IMPERI pass, had I got beaten,
I didn't want them thinking, well, he's thinking about retirement

(01:18:06):
and all that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
So I went there.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
I wanted to go out there and ride the horse
to the best of my ability, and thankfully the whole
race worked out really well for.

Speaker 3 (01:18:14):
Me, and he won.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
And I promise you, the minute I crossed that line,
I knew that's it, that's it, And yeah, it was
just I enjoyed that moment with him, and I loved
that actually, because like you said, to go out on
a Grade one winner, and I knew.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
That was it, but I couldn't obviously say it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
And then because I wanted I wanted Simon, Isaac and
Anthony's permission first before I said it to anyone, so
went on my interviews.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
That was all good, but in my head, I just
I knew that was it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
That was the last time I was going to get
interviewed as a as a winning jockey, and I went
literally went out in my racing gear, got out and
I just rang Simon. I just said to my said,
can I have your permission to hang up my boots
at Leopards tomorrow?

Speaker 3 (01:19:00):
And Simon was.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
Really shocked and he was like, really why, I said,
I just I think it's the right time.

Speaker 3 (01:19:06):
I said, look at and I explained everything to him.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
I was on the phone to him for about twenty
twenty five minutes, and I said, can you ask Isaac
and Anthony's permission and then can you ring me back
whenever you've had the discussions. But I really think it's
the right time. But I want your blessing. I want
you to have my blessing that one did the right thing.

(01:19:30):
And Simon came back to me forty five minutes. I
was on the way home and we had a good
chat for about forty five minutes about everything, and he
just said to me, he said, look at where if
that's what you want to do, that's what you've got
to do.

Speaker 3 (01:19:46):
At the end of the day. You've got to do
what you feel is right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):
And if we don't want you to retire, but we
want you to understand if you feel it's the right
time for you to retire. And I said, I think
it is. And that's when I made that match. A
phone called to you and Michael Sinners.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
That's it, and that was life exclusive exclusive and was
a sense of relief when you put the fun out
to Simon and it's giving you the blessing because you
have left a bit behind. It's the intense raffles national.
I could say everything that Kelly laid out was true,
wasn't it Your dad laid out the stuff. That's yeah, yeah,
you must have known, you must have been so.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Yeah. But like I said, I have no idea relief
is it really? I don't know what you can call
it relief or not, But you know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
I felt huge satisfaction of what I've achieved because this
year when I came back from my first time I
broke my collar bone and shoulder, it was one thousand winners.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
I've achieved that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
And then obviously the next day broke it again quite badly,
and probably really thinking back on it, when the specialist
said to me it was going to take three months
to heal, and I said to myself, I've got five
and a half weeks. And he said, look, you won't
do it five and a half weeks. I said, I will.
I said, listen, you won't. Simple as I said, you

(01:21:06):
just make sure you make my shoulder might call him
one bulletproof, and you leave the rest to me. And
I think it was that five and a half weeks.
I never ever missed a beat. I never let up it.
I gave a torture and you know, an oaksy house
and everyone in there fantastic.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
I mean I gave myself torture for that.

Speaker 1 (01:21:26):
Five and a half weeks because I just and I
never derailed from my mind. I was literally this, I
will be back. There is absolutely no doubt about it.
I will be back. And I never for one second
thought I won't be back, because.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
I did I thought you might get halfway through your
rebilitation thought.

Speaker 3 (01:21:43):
And it was no. I never, I never, I never
waved from at all.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
And maybe that played a part in it as well,
because maybe mentally I absolutely exhausted myself emptied the tank there.
But then again, like I say, I've emptied the tank,
so have no regrets. You know that the tank was
well and truly emptied and I achieved what I wanted
to achieve in writing the Grade one winner for Simon
and Isaac. And look, don't get me wrong, I could

(01:22:10):
have another two Grade ones before the end of the season.
But the thing, I have it, and I will always
have it in my little head. I've had that Grade
one for Simon and Isaac, and I can let that rest.
I can you know that can go to bed with
me and that can rest, and I'd be so happy
and I'd be delighted generally if intense raffles went them,

(01:22:32):
because Simon's always wanted a Grand National winner and I
would love if JJ can supply him, and it'd be
quite a good story JJ winning an Irish National, winning
an English National.

Speaker 3 (01:22:40):
It'd be a great story for them.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
And the fact I think it made it slightly easier
for me is in the fact that I would loved
a winner for Simon and Isaac and Anthony in the
English Grand National. But I have a Grand National to
my CV, and I think that probably made it a
little bit easier decision than as well, because I have
a Grand Nation similar to my CV, and I didn't

(01:23:03):
what I don't think I was always going to retire
at the end of this year.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
And probably the biggest thing that.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
I couldn't have candled was if I did get injured
and I couldn't see out the rest of the season
like what I did last year. And I think I
think that would have put me back too many steps
for the career that I've had that maybe mentally I
wouldn't have been able to cope. So therefore, when I
weighed Everton up, you know the pros and the cons,

(01:23:28):
it was the right time.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
You went on your own terms. That's Kelly, the kids
enjoying avenue of arm not the same much more of
you because I mean it's not exactly a gentle of
the time, when is it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:23:38):
I mean Kelly was enjoyed it for the first couple
of weeks because he'd done the school run. But now
she's kicking it. She's kicking she's kicking me out in
the house.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
Now I think I'm around, I'm around.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
I'm in her hair too much now at the moment,
So she's quite glad I'm out and about, But it's
it is great to spend a bit more time with
Kelly and the kids and and not have to worry
about my weight.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
And if we go somewhere on the day out, not.

Speaker 1 (01:24:00):
Coming back and getting into the gym and getting.

Speaker 3 (01:24:03):
Into the bath for an hour and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
We can actually plan things now, and that's whereas before
we could never ever plan anything.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
Whereas now I've got a kind.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Of a I've got a diary, so I write things
in the diary.

Speaker 3 (01:24:15):
Where was before I've never had to do end like that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:17):
I just literally forty eight hours, right, you're going there,
You're going there, You're going You never really I never
knew where I was going from one day to the next.
I never ever knew where I was going, what I
was doing. But now actually I've got a diary and
I can plan things.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
It must be with it because most people retire it
because there's sixty five seventy week the end of their
working life. Professional sports people retire with thirty thirty five
years left of that. Are you so you've got a
nice portfolio? How important that fact that you're such an
integral part still of that double doing too oh massive?

Speaker 1 (01:24:48):
And that's I think that's the key to it all,
really is still having that connection with Simon and Isaac.
And that's why I think feel like I feel like
whenever I go to the Dublin Racing Festival or go
to any of these festivals, I'm still there because I'm
still part of a team.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
It's not as if like I'm sitting at home watching
these horses.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
And I think that's key, and I think that's why
Simon and Isaac were so instrumental in me being still
part of the team and helping Anthony is because it
keeps me there. It keeps me, It gives me a focus.
Every day I wake up, how can we get better?
How can we better Double Green? And to be there
for all the meetings when you know, even when Anthony
can't be there, when I can't be there, to be

(01:25:27):
there representing them. I get a lot of pride out
of that that as well, because I'm still feel like
as if I'm still wanted, I'm still part of the team.

Speaker 3 (01:25:34):
And yeah, it's it works really really well for.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
Me broadcasting and enjoying that. I mean, it's it's a
great string to the bow, isn't it. It's something you're
naturally enjoyed or something.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
I love it absolutely generally, I love it, you know.
I love the guys down at Racing TV have been
very very helpful helpful to me. They've really embraced me.
They've taken me on. They're educating me. Every time I
go down there, they're educating me. And like I said,
I love I love going race, I love talking about horses.
I love talking about horse racing. I love the animals,
you know. And if I can give anyone there a

(01:26:06):
little bit of an insight about my career or about
how a horse race is run, and you know, what's
the difference between a winner and a loser, all them
sort of little small stuff, I get a lot of
satisfaction of that. And like you say, I love I
love racing, and I want to be connected to racing
as much as I possibly can.

Speaker 2 (01:26:25):
Would you do it all again if you went back
to that fourteen fifteen been told is not big enough
to play well?

Speaker 1 (01:26:31):
Looking at the career, looking at the career that I've had, yeah,
I would probably do it all again. But look at
I sacrificed so much. I mean, you know, the you know,
I was all in And like you say, I don't
do things in half of I'm either I'm in or
I'm not in. And I can honestly say that I
have no regrets everything that I've done I've done it.

(01:26:53):
I've tried to do a smile on my face and yeah,
I've really really enjoyed it, and it's been looking back
on it, it's been a wonderful career.

Speaker 3 (01:27:01):
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):
Of all the accolade you've got, we surrounded about some
of them. How high was the one that you received
with the National Weights lunch. The only person in raising
with worse hair than me and Rich Rich.

Speaker 3 (01:27:11):
I know, Yeah, some cheap on that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
I mean, he's only jealous because he hasn't got hair
on the top out at the back of it, doesn't he.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
So he's only jealous of that, isn't he.

Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
You should be very very proud of everything that he achieved.
Tremendous career and the great news is it's hold plenty
more to look forward to.

Speaker 3 (01:27:27):
Please guard. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
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(01:27:53):
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