July 29, 2025 • 14 mins
Attributes Of Spiritually Healthy People And How To Avoid Destructive Choices That Could Sabatoge Relationships And Spiritual Health
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Starcares, a weekly program that delves into the
issues that impact you and your family. This program is
the public affairs feature of this radio station. Now here's
your host, Michael Leach.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Sadly, it's not uncommon to hear stories of beloved pastors
or prominent ministry leaders who've lost their ministry or their
marriage and brought pain and confusion to the Body of
Christ due to a misguided series of choices. Leaders are
just as vulnerable as anyone else. So how can leaders?
How can all of us avoid land mines and ministry
and continue to thrive through long years of pouring themselves
(00:37):
ourselves out in serving others. Let's talk about it. My
guest today is Dave Whetis, and he is the founder
and executive director of Serving Leaders Ministry, a ministry that
focuses on serving and ministering to pastors, ministry leaders, and
their families. Dave, thank you for joining me and welcome
to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thank you so much, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So you have written a resource entitled the Spiritually Healthy Leader.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
What motivated you're writing?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
What motivated me? I had taught the seminar on this
spiritually Healthy Leader finding freedom from self sacrifice for many,
many years and Michael, as I taught this, what was
unique for me is that consistently throughout every time I
taught it, even China, India and other places, I saw
light go on in people's eyes and people start to change,
(01:22):
and people report to me that their lives really started
to change and they experienced transformation in Christ by really
focusing on some of the principles that I had taught.
And that's what inspired me. And I've worked with leaders
over the past eighteen years serving leaders ministries has been
in existence, and I've seen patterns not only in others' lives,
(01:43):
but in my own life. And so I thought to myself, well,
who needs another book? On one hand, and then seeing
people change, that really inspired me to put the content
of the seminars that I was doing into a book.
And thus far it's been very, very rewarding.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
In your work.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Talk about passions. What do our passions reveal about what
we value?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Our passions tell us about what we most highly highly value.
And I have a concept called your ruling passions, And
so if you think about it, your passions, what you're
most passionate about is a wonderful measurement of your spiritual health.
If you ask most Christians and what they're most passionate about,
they're going to say, Jesus, the Gospel, doing God's will.
(02:27):
When you peel back the layers that we have, if
you really reveal what we're most passionate about, or what
we're most ultimately committed to, it would be things like this.
I will be loved, I will be respected, I will
be unique, I will be in control, or I will
be admired. I'll make an impact. And I call these
(02:48):
ruling passions because these are sometimes unconscious commitments that we
make that become ultimate in our hearts and in our lives.
So a ruling passion is a eat sometimes unconscious desire
that governs our decisions, and it shapes our responses. It
fuels our pursuits that which we most passionately pursue above
(03:10):
all other things. If they become ultimate in our life,
they become functional idols in our life, and they inform
and control the decisions that we make, the way we
relate to other people, and the way we actually live
our lives. So they're really important and tell us a
lot about ourselves. But our spiritual health most of all.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
And as much as they're unconscious at times, how are
we able to identify them?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Well, you have to do a little bit of pondering
and thinking and asking God to reveal what our ruling
passions are. But typically what we do is we will
act in accordance with our ruling passions. For example, I
might say I am most committed to Jesus, but in action,
I'm most committed to getting you to admire me or
(03:54):
you to impress me. I maybe say I'm most committed
to the Gospel, and yet really with fueling my desire,
the motivation of my heart is something other than my
passion for Christ, like being in control or avoiding pain
or being safe. And the things that we're most passionate
about make total sense, and they usually arise out of
(04:18):
hateful or very pleasurable experience. For example, we've all been embarrassed.
Suppose I'm humiliated in a way as a young child
that causes me to make a vow that says I
will never be humiliated like that. Again, well, that's functional,
and it makes complete sense, and it arises from a
good longing in the heart. But yet, because it's ruling,
(04:41):
if it rules my life, it becomes this functional idol
and I live my life according to it, so that
can affect decisions in my heart and life, like I'll
avoid anything that would possibly embarrass me. I'll avoid speaking
up in class, or asking a question, or asking someone
out for a date, or even get up and preaching
because of the fear of being humiliated or embarrassed. So
(05:03):
that's why I say it can be unconscious. But most
of the time, if you start to think about it,
what's unconscious becomes conscious. And by the way, what's functional
at a certain time or a certain age becomes dysfunctional.
Because if I live my life in accordance with my
quote ruling passion, by definition, that's ruling me as opposed
to Jesus and his will ruling me.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Share some biblical examples of leaders who may have struggled
with a ruling passion.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
What can we learn from their stories?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Oh yeah, Peter is a perfect example. Peter was one
of the most powerful apostles. If you think about Peter's resume,
I mean think about this. He lived with Jesus, he
was one of the three. He was with Jesus on
the amount of transfiguration. He preached three thousand souls were
saved in one day, so very very powerful. And yet
(05:56):
if you read the Book of Galatians, in chapter two,
it tells us that Peter, although he was an apostle
and he was ministered to the people in the church
who had both Gentiles and Jewish Christians in that same church,
Paul rebukes Peter. Now that's unbelievable. He rebukes them publicly.
And the question is why why does he rebuke them? Well,
(06:16):
because Peter, although he loved the people he was pastoring,
he also offended them deeply. How did he do that?
The Bible says he withdrew from the gentiles when the
men from James came. That's Coalations, chapter two. And so
from there you can see that his withdrawing from the
gentile believers deeply hurt them. It caused other people to
(06:39):
actually do the same. It says he played the hypocrite.
And so what was his ruling passion? His ruling passion
essentially was self protection, because it says when the men
from James came, feared them and withdrew from the gentiles.
So think about what it would be like for your
pastor to act as if he didn't know you or
want to be seen with you because he was a
(06:59):
shamed afraid of his reputation being hurt. So there's Peter
the apostle with a great resume, a very spiritual man,
a wonderful man, and yet ruled by a ruling passion
of self protection.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
You write that the degree to which we're not aware
of our motivations is the degree to which we can
be dangerous to others.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Can you share more about that?
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Sure, everybody's someone in touch with motives of the heart?
Why do we do what we do? And that maybe
I'll ask this question. Have you ever found yourself doing
something and you'd say, why did I do that? What
was I thinking? Well, if I have a motive of
the heart, for example, as a counselor to impress people
or to get someone to admire me, how am I
(07:42):
going to act in a counseling session? What questions am
I going to ask? And how will I act? Well,
I'm going to unconsciously try to impress a person. And
if I'm counseling a person and I'm trying to impress them,
guess what I'm not serving them? And the first rule
of counseling is I'm serving another person. I'm serving my client,
not myself. So the degree to which I am not
(08:03):
in touch with the fact that I'm moving a person
or manipulating a person to admire me is the degree
to which I can be dangerous because my counsel doesn't
know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing,
and I'm acting in a way that is harmful. Whereas
if I'm really in touch with my motives, I can
repent right on the spot and say, you know, I'm
(08:24):
going to make a choice not to ask that question
to impress, but maybe ask a different question because that's
what is most important or in the best interest of
my client. If you're in ministry, or if you're in
any relationship, no matter what it is, a child to
a parent, a parent to a child, husband and wife,
what's your motive or the degree to which you don't
(08:45):
know what your motive is is the degree to which
you can hurt other people.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
What are then, some of the more common core commitments
that leaders struggle with.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I think leaders as well as all of us, struggle
with things like this. I will be liked or I
will be special, I'll make an impact. I mean, think
about a pastor who wants to make an impact. That's
a good thing, but if it becomes an ultimate thing,
it can be very harmful. And all of the things
that we talk about when I talk about ruling passions
arise from certain vows that we make, like those that
(09:17):
I just said, I'll be respected, I'll be in control.
But if it becomes ultimate in our life, that's when
it becomes so a functional idol. If I'm a pastor,
if I'm a minister, if I'm a Sunday school teacher,
if I'm a dad, I don't want my ruling passion
to rule me. I want my love for Christ and
the supremacy of Christ and the lordship of Christ to
rule me. So I'm doing what is good and loving,
(09:41):
not what's in my best interest or what I think
is in my best interest.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Talk about the role of confession regarding this, as.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
With any sin. This thing that we're told to do
is to confess our sins. And before we can confess
our sins, we have to identify what our sins are.
You can't confess that what you're not aware of, right,
you can't repent of that which you're not aware of.
So the first thing that we have to do is
identify what is ruling my heart? What is my ruling passion?
(10:10):
What am I living for? Really? I know I can
say it's God, but underneath is it really? I want
to be admired, I want to be loved. I will
be loved. And so once we identify a ruling passion,
we can confess it. The thing I love about confession
is this that we can go before God, not a
condemning God, but one who loves us, who gave his
(10:32):
life for us, who's already bought us with a price.
So I don't have to be afraid, and I can
come before the Lord and I can say something like this, Lord,
I confess to you my ruling passion has been to
be admired, or my ruling passion has been to be
loved or not to be lonely. And when I can
confess that to him, and I can see myself through
(10:53):
the grace filled eyes of Christ. And that's so important,
see myself not through my own condemning eyes or my
own shame aim filled eyes, but through the grace filled
eyes of Christ. It makes all the difference in the world,
because then I can say, Okay, Lord, what do I
do to repent of this. How do I have a
biblical response to my ruling passions? How do I live
(11:15):
in accordance with the supremacy of Christ in my life
and not in accordance with my own ruling passion in
my life?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
So what advice would you give to leaders, to any
of us who just feel stuck in this cycle of
self sabotage?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
My advice is number one, get really, really honest with
yourself and with God, and understand that all of us
get stuck in cycles of self sabotage. So we need
God and we need to be honest. As you said,
it's not just the leaders, this is for everyone. Is
understand that God loves us, that he sees us where
(11:49):
we are, that we don't have to be ashamed of
our sin and the way we've made our own ruling passions.
God of our hearts, understand too, that we're not alone
and that we all struggle. And so start to identify
the ruling passions in your heart. Start to understand why
did I make the vow that I made. Most of
the time it comes out of our past wounds. And
(12:11):
if it's come out of past wounds or trauma, then
to look at your past through both the grace filled
eyes of Christ and also look at your past through
the lens of God's sovereignty in your life. Because most
of us have been through trauma, We've been wounded, we've
been hurt, and instead of being bitter about it or
bitter at God, or saying why did this happen, or
(12:32):
acting like a victim, we can say, like Joseph said,
you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
And God, what ways will you redeem the wounds of
my heart so that I can love you more and
love others more and serve them not out of arrogance,
but out of brokenness and out of heal and brokenness,
so that I'm now moving in a way that is
(12:53):
God honoring and honoring other people and loving others.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
And that would be then the spiritually healthy leader.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
That's right. We can all look spiritual in certain ways,
you know, we can all take on a sort of
a persona of what we deem spirituality. But truly a
person who is a spiritual leader or a spiritual person,
you don't have to be a formal leader. Anyone can
walk in integrity before the Lord, walk under the supremacy
of Christ and say God, I want to obey you
(13:20):
and serve you. Please heal my wounds and let me
walk in accordance with your ways.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So, Dave, how can we learn more about what we've
discussed today? Do you have a website for us?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
We do. My website is serving Leaders dot org. Serving
Leaders dot org. And also the book The Spiritually Healthy Leader,
Finding Freedom from Self Sabotage is available anywhere. Christian books
are sold at New Growth Press, which is the publisher
of the book, and then is on Amazon, Christianbooks dot com,
and anyone can feel free to write me if you
(13:52):
go to Serving Leaders dot org. You can write me
or even call if you have questions about this. We
are here to serve the body of Christ.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Serving Leaders dot org, Servingleaders dot org. Dave Weedis, thank
you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Thank you so much, Michael. It's been a joy and
privileged to be with you.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
And thank you for listening. Won't you join me again?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'm your host, Michael Leach, and I'm praying for you
and praying that the rest of your day is wonderful.
Welcome to Starcares, a weekly program that delves into the
issues that impact you and your family. This program is
the public affairs feature of this radio station. Now here's
your host, Michael Leach.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Sadly, it's not uncommon to hear stories of beloved pastors
or prominent ministry leaders who've lost their ministry or their
marriage and brought pain and confusion to the Body of
Christ due to a misguided series of choices. Leaders are
just as vulnerable as anyone else. So how can leaders?
How can all of us avoid land mines and ministry
and continue to thrive through long years of pouring themselves
(00:37):
ourselves out in serving others. Let's talk about it. My
guest today is Dave Whetis, and he is the founder
and executive director of Serving Leaders Ministry, a ministry that
focuses on serving and ministering to pastors, ministry leaders, and
their families. Dave, thank you for joining me and welcome
to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thank you so much, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So you have written a resource entitled the Spiritually Healthy Leader.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
What motivated you're writing?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
What motivated me? I had taught the seminar on this
spiritually Healthy Leader finding freedom from self sacrifice for many,
many years and Michael, as I taught this, what was
unique for me is that consistently throughout every time I
taught it, even China, India and other places, I saw
light go on in people's eyes and people start to change,
(01:22):
and people report to me that their lives really started
to change and they experienced transformation in Christ by really
focusing on some of the principles that I had taught.
And that's what inspired me. And I've worked with leaders
over the past eighteen years serving leaders ministries has been
in existence, and I've seen patterns not only in others' lives,
(01:43):
but in my own life. And so I thought to myself, well,
who needs another book? On one hand, and then seeing
people change, that really inspired me to put the content
of the seminars that I was doing into a book.
And thus far it's been very, very rewarding.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
In your work.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Talk about passions. What do our passions reveal about what
we value?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Our passions tell us about what we most highly highly value.
And I have a concept called your ruling passions, And
so if you think about it, your passions, what you're
most passionate about is a wonderful measurement of your spiritual health.
If you ask most Christians and what they're most passionate about,
they're going to say, Jesus, the Gospel, doing God's will.
(02:27):
When you peel back the layers that we have, if
you really reveal what we're most passionate about, or what
we're most ultimately committed to, it would be things like this.
I will be loved, I will be respected, I will
be unique, I will be in control, or I will
be admired. I'll make an impact. And I call these
(02:48):
ruling passions because these are sometimes unconscious commitments that we
make that become ultimate in our hearts and in our lives.
So a ruling passion is a eat sometimes unconscious desire
that governs our decisions, and it shapes our responses. It
fuels our pursuits that which we most passionately pursue above
(03:10):
all other things. If they become ultimate in our life,
they become functional idols in our life, and they inform
and control the decisions that we make, the way we
relate to other people, and the way we actually live
our lives. So they're really important and tell us a
lot about ourselves. But our spiritual health most of all.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
And as much as they're unconscious at times, how are
we able to identify them?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Well, you have to do a little bit of pondering
and thinking and asking God to reveal what our ruling
passions are. But typically what we do is we will
act in accordance with our ruling passions. For example, I
might say I am most committed to Jesus, but in action,
I'm most committed to getting you to admire me or
(03:54):
you to impress me. I maybe say I'm most committed
to the Gospel, and yet really with fueling my desire,
the motivation of my heart is something other than my
passion for Christ, like being in control or avoiding pain
or being safe. And the things that we're most passionate
about make total sense, and they usually arise out of
(04:18):
hateful or very pleasurable experience. For example, we've all been embarrassed.
Suppose I'm humiliated in a way as a young child
that causes me to make a vow that says I
will never be humiliated like that. Again, well, that's functional,
and it makes complete sense, and it arises from a
good longing in the heart. But yet, because it's ruling,
(04:41):
if it rules my life, it becomes this functional idol
and I live my life according to it, so that
can affect decisions in my heart and life, like I'll
avoid anything that would possibly embarrass me. I'll avoid speaking
up in class, or asking a question, or asking someone
out for a date, or even get up and preaching
because of the fear of being humiliated or embarrassed. So
(05:03):
that's why I say it can be unconscious. But most
of the time, if you start to think about it,
what's unconscious becomes conscious. And by the way, what's functional
at a certain time or a certain age becomes dysfunctional.
Because if I live my life in accordance with my
quote ruling passion, by definition, that's ruling me as opposed
to Jesus and his will ruling me.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Share some biblical examples of leaders who may have struggled
with a ruling passion.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
What can we learn from their stories?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Oh yeah, Peter is a perfect example. Peter was one
of the most powerful apostles. If you think about Peter's resume,
I mean think about this. He lived with Jesus, he
was one of the three. He was with Jesus on
the amount of transfiguration. He preached three thousand souls were
saved in one day, so very very powerful. And yet
(05:56):
if you read the Book of Galatians, in chapter two,
it tells us that Peter, although he was an apostle
and he was ministered to the people in the church
who had both Gentiles and Jewish Christians in that same church,
Paul rebukes Peter. Now that's unbelievable. He rebukes them publicly.
And the question is why why does he rebuke them? Well,
(06:16):
because Peter, although he loved the people he was pastoring,
he also offended them deeply. How did he do that?
The Bible says he withdrew from the gentiles when the
men from James came. That's Coalations, chapter two. And so
from there you can see that his withdrawing from the
gentile believers deeply hurt them. It caused other people to
(06:39):
actually do the same. It says he played the hypocrite.
And so what was his ruling passion? His ruling passion
essentially was self protection, because it says when the men
from James came, feared them and withdrew from the gentiles.
So think about what it would be like for your
pastor to act as if he didn't know you or
want to be seen with you because he was a
(06:59):
shamed afraid of his reputation being hurt. So there's Peter
the apostle with a great resume, a very spiritual man,
a wonderful man, and yet ruled by a ruling passion
of self protection.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
You write that the degree to which we're not aware
of our motivations is the degree to which we can
be dangerous to others.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Can you share more about that?
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Sure, everybody's someone in touch with motives of the heart?
Why do we do what we do? And that maybe
I'll ask this question. Have you ever found yourself doing
something and you'd say, why did I do that? What
was I thinking? Well, if I have a motive of
the heart, for example, as a counselor to impress people
or to get someone to admire me, how am I
(07:42):
going to act in a counseling session? What questions am
I going to ask? And how will I act? Well,
I'm going to unconsciously try to impress a person. And
if I'm counseling a person and I'm trying to impress them,
guess what I'm not serving them? And the first rule
of counseling is I'm serving another person. I'm serving my client,
not myself. So the degree to which I am not
(08:03):
in touch with the fact that I'm moving a person
or manipulating a person to admire me is the degree
to which I can be dangerous because my counsel doesn't
know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing,
and I'm acting in a way that is harmful. Whereas
if I'm really in touch with my motives, I can
repent right on the spot and say, you know, I'm
(08:24):
going to make a choice not to ask that question
to impress, but maybe ask a different question because that's
what is most important or in the best interest of
my client. If you're in ministry, or if you're in
any relationship, no matter what it is, a child to
a parent, a parent to a child, husband and wife,
what's your motive or the degree to which you don't
(08:45):
know what your motive is is the degree to which
you can hurt other people.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
What are then, some of the more common core commitments
that leaders struggle with.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I think leaders as well as all of us, struggle
with things like this. I will be liked or I
will be special, I'll make an impact. I mean, think
about a pastor who wants to make an impact. That's
a good thing, but if it becomes an ultimate thing,
it can be very harmful. And all of the things
that we talk about when I talk about ruling passions
arise from certain vows that we make, like those that
(09:17):
I just said, I'll be respected, I'll be in control.
But if it becomes ultimate in our life, that's when
it becomes so a functional idol. If I'm a pastor,
if I'm a minister, if I'm a Sunday school teacher,
if I'm a dad, I don't want my ruling passion
to rule me. I want my love for Christ and
the supremacy of Christ and the lordship of Christ to
rule me. So I'm doing what is good and loving,
(09:41):
not what's in my best interest or what I think
is in my best interest.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Talk about the role of confession regarding this, as.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
With any sin. This thing that we're told to do
is to confess our sins. And before we can confess
our sins, we have to identify what our sins are.
You can't confess that what you're not aware of, right,
you can't repent of that which you're not aware of.
So the first thing that we have to do is
identify what is ruling my heart? What is my ruling passion?
(10:10):
What am I living for? Really? I know I can
say it's God, but underneath is it really? I want
to be admired, I want to be loved. I will
be loved. And so once we identify a ruling passion,
we can confess it. The thing I love about confession
is this that we can go before God, not a
condemning God, but one who loves us, who gave his
(10:32):
life for us, who's already bought us with a price.
So I don't have to be afraid, and I can
come before the Lord and I can say something like this, Lord,
I confess to you my ruling passion has been to
be admired, or my ruling passion has been to be
loved or not to be lonely. And when I can
confess that to him, and I can see myself through
(10:53):
the grace filled eyes of Christ. And that's so important,
see myself not through my own condemning eyes or my
own shame aim filled eyes, but through the grace filled
eyes of Christ. It makes all the difference in the world,
because then I can say, Okay, Lord, what do I
do to repent of this. How do I have a
biblical response to my ruling passions? How do I live
(11:15):
in accordance with the supremacy of Christ in my life
and not in accordance with my own ruling passion in
my life?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
So what advice would you give to leaders, to any
of us who just feel stuck in this cycle of
self sabotage?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
My advice is number one, get really, really honest with
yourself and with God, and understand that all of us
get stuck in cycles of self sabotage. So we need
God and we need to be honest. As you said,
it's not just the leaders, this is for everyone. Is
understand that God loves us, that he sees us where
(11:49):
we are, that we don't have to be ashamed of
our sin and the way we've made our own ruling passions.
God of our hearts, understand too, that we're not alone
and that we all struggle. And so start to identify
the ruling passions in your heart. Start to understand why
did I make the vow that I made. Most of
the time it comes out of our past wounds. And
(12:11):
if it's come out of past wounds or trauma, then
to look at your past through both the grace filled
eyes of Christ and also look at your past through
the lens of God's sovereignty in your life. Because most
of us have been through trauma, We've been wounded, we've
been hurt, and instead of being bitter about it or
bitter at God, or saying why did this happen, or
(12:32):
acting like a victim, we can say, like Joseph said,
you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
And God, what ways will you redeem the wounds of
my heart so that I can love you more and
love others more and serve them not out of arrogance,
but out of brokenness and out of heal and brokenness,
so that I'm now moving in a way that is
(12:53):
God honoring and honoring other people and loving others.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
And that would be then the spiritually healthy leader.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
That's right. We can all look spiritual in certain ways,
you know, we can all take on a sort of
a persona of what we deem spirituality. But truly a
person who is a spiritual leader or a spiritual person,
you don't have to be a formal leader. Anyone can
walk in integrity before the Lord, walk under the supremacy
of Christ and say God, I want to obey you
(13:20):
and serve you. Please heal my wounds and let me
walk in accordance with your ways.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So, Dave, how can we learn more about what we've
discussed today? Do you have a website for us?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
We do. My website is serving Leaders dot org. Serving
Leaders dot org. And also the book The Spiritually Healthy Leader,
Finding Freedom from Self Sabotage is available anywhere. Christian books
are sold at New Growth Press, which is the publisher
of the book, and then is on Amazon, Christianbooks dot com,
and anyone can feel free to write me if you
(13:52):
go to Serving Leaders dot org. You can write me
or even call if you have questions about this. We
are here to serve the body of Christ.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Serving Leaders dot org, Servingleaders dot org. Dave Weedis, thank
you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Thank you so much, Michael. It's been a joy and
privileged to be with you.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
And thank you for listening. Won't you join me again?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'm your host, Michael Leach, and I'm praying for you
and praying that the rest of your day is wonderful.
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