Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hm, I've got no reason, the cheek of a killing
(00:24):
sea with a need to blease you where the light goes.
Bring Let's believe him in the zone to me from
a end of a yanko, a yane s but a grill.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Let's say when you call the meat because.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I'm weird, I'm a one of a kind, and I'll
bring death to the glacier about to meet another river
of blood running under my feet, forging to fire it
long ago. Stand next to me, You'll never stand alone.
I'm last to leave, but the first to go.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The Lord, make me death before.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
You make me a feet on the fear of the
devil inside of the enemy faces in my sight, being
with a hand or shoe, with a mind, gill with
a heart like our jam guys, So I am worry
(01:17):
and this is the waste to the ground.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I read you, Lee, Ma Charlie, loud and clear.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
All right, everyone, Welcome to another episode of Lee with Charlie.
David was that some of those pictures look familiar. They
probably are, broke.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I think I think I was there on some of
those missions with you.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I think so, uh, And we're videos frozing it, but
hopefully it comes unfrozen. Uh yeah, I thought you might
recognize a couple of those, but with David Lukeman, a
good friend of mine. Yeah, we lost video, but you're
still there. I think there we go. Uh. Deployed multiple times,
has an awesome, exciting career. So glad to have you
on tonight. Man. Thank you for making time to come
(02:04):
on and give us some of your stories from down range.
And good to see you again. It's been a long time,
my friend.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, good to see you again. And before we get
started it, I just want to say it was nineteen
years ago that you and I shared the barriage together,
our team and yours, and that's where that's where we
met and got to know each other and sort of
looked up to you ever since on the battlefield as well,
and on your podcast, and just amazed by the people
(02:31):
that you have on your podcast. That's why I was
a little concerned that, you know, with all the heroes
of you've had on there, I don't know why you'd
be asking me to do this, But I'm here because
a friend asked me, not because I've accomplished anything great
or anything like that. So good to see you again.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Yeah. I can't believe it's been nineteen years. First, let
me say that that's insane that it is, but it
has been. You're right, but we first met gracing the
skies under a Shelby stand all that. But yeah, it's uh, no,
I appreciate many look just like all the people you've
seen on this show and everything, right, all of them
(03:07):
were just dudes doing the girls, doing their job, and uh,
none of them feel that way. But you know, for
the for the ninety nine percent of Americans that have
never been down range or don't even know anyone, it
has right, it's it's it's a chance for them to
hear these stories, for sure, But every one of us
have good ones to tell, which is well, I'm glad
to hear you. Thank you for the kind words, and
let's get going. So, yeah, you were I know some
(03:29):
of your career, but honestly, you know, when you're down
range and you're running missions, we're not. You know, you
and I weren't at the at the level of rank
where we're just sitting in the guard shack all night,
you know, hearing everyone's backstory. So I don't know a
lot of it. So I'm glad to have you on
and uh, well, we'll start with kind of who you
are and when you join, why you joined, and how
that whole process went. What what motivated you to join?
(03:50):
Step forward and raise your hand.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Lack of lack of funding. Uh, it's I think that's
probably common response. I was in college, uh attended, was
attending the University of Portland where my father was teaching.
So my first year in college was basically paid for
because he was an instructor there. And then he h
he applied for and didn't get his tenure. So all
(04:18):
that free moolah or free college education sort of was
on the verge of going out of the window. And
I didn't see any other options other than either dropping
out and going getting a job somewhere or continue on
with some other source of funting. And and I literally
(04:39):
walked my happy ass into the Army RTC office on
campus and said, Hey, I need to pay for college
and I'm hoping you guys can do that. And so
that's how I got into ROTC. And and and the
truth of it is, when I walked in, I wasn't
even eligible for a scholarship because I wasn't a a
(05:00):
US citizen of times, so I had to I had
to take out loans for one more year, and then
I had to go to Fort Knox, Kentucky for RTC
basic camps. It was they for the entire year they
did basic training for private but like one one term
out of the year they did basic training for ROTC cadets.
(05:23):
And that's where RTC cadets got to compete for scholarships.
And I not not because of any brains or academic achievements,
but purely out of physical Uh busted my ass. I
earned a two year scholarship and that's how I paid
for the rest of my college, not knowing even not
(05:44):
even not even knowing at that time what being an
army officer entailed. I was just trying to get trying
to pay for college, right.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Right, your video is frozen into so you now, I
don't know if you can tell that on your side
or not, but no, So it's just funny, right the
old story he is like, you know, go to war,
go to jail. Yours was I need to get through
college or uh or I'm not. So that's that's the
way it happened. So you got you earned that two
year scholarship. You're able to do your junior and senior
(06:13):
year and and get and get contracted and all that.
What how did you branch? Was there something you wanted
to get in and didn't did you get what you wanted?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So my my father was a was an electrical engineer,
and I thought that I would h try one of
these technical branches and you know, and maybe get something
out of the army and and follow my father's footsteps.
So my first choice was Signal Corps. And then you
had to list of one of your top three choices
had to be had to be a combat armors branch.
(06:46):
I think I listed signal Corps is my top Ordnance
and armor were my top three choices, And as the
Army would have it, I got none of those. And
not only did I get active duty, I was sold
I was getting a reserve commission. This was right around
the time, you know, right after the Gulf War had ended,
and Bill Clinton was pretty big on oh yeahising the
(07:08):
army and things like that. So a lot of the
non nursing cadets didn't get there, didn't get their top
choices or there or active duty commission. So that's what
caused me to uh then join the forty first Brigade,
in Oregon Thetubagade. So I was an infantry officer, not
(07:32):
what I wanted, but looking back thirty years thirty years ago,
I wouldn't I wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah. It's funny because a lot of guys, right you know,
young Bravado, they either want to go infantry and all
the who who is stuff? Or or or not? And
then then some get a little bit of both. Right,
they get insured for a couple of years and the
branch detail into something else or whatever? Does do they
do branch detail in the guard or once you get
in that's your.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Bran that's I think that's I think that's once you
get in, that's it.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, active will do that, but probably Guard not because
of the cost and shared cost of between the reserve component.
And so infantry officer got in did that and then uh,
and then how long ago? So you're retired now, right?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I am? Yeah, I've been retired to seven years now.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, it seems like a long day. It seems like
a the uh. Yeah, and so you did how many
years total?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So it was in the Horgan Guard, uh for eleven
and a half years, from like from May of two
thousand and six to right after we came back from
the Afghanistan deployment. So yeah, about eleven and a half years,
did five deployments with them, did all the all the leadership.
(08:45):
I was a I was a platoon leader for multiple
different platoons, and probably was a lieutenant a lot longer
than lieutenants stay lieutenant these days. So battalions, battalion number,
gay staff time, company command and uh it was an
even even in a g R for a couple of years.
(09:06):
And uh then h after the after the Afghanistan deployment,
I just needed to make a change for myself and
my my family, and uh uh looked into some options.
I was thinking about just getting out altogether. After the
Afghanistan deployment. I've done everything. I pretty much checked the
block for for everything infantry related, right, company command, very
(09:29):
very you know, not everybody gets picked up battalion command.
So I figured, hey, company command, meeting troops in combat,
that's probably the pinnacle of an infustry career. Right. So
I was thinking about getting out, going to college, uh,
getting in a real job, and uh it just so
happens that there was a demand for my people with
(09:50):
my background and my language skills and and they were
willing to pay for UH master's degree and and let
me travel the world and well not so the fail
branch appealed to me and applied to them UH and
got accepted and that was the rest of my career.
So I went from being the National guardsment for the
(10:12):
first half of my career and then an activity Foreign
Area officer for the for the rest of my time.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, I want to I want to define that for people. Yeah,
fails foreign Area officer, which is are Now what is
that role? That's that's like embassy work around Then.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's a lot like being being a diplomat, being a
uniformed military diplomat, because you serve because the assignments they're
not all embassy assignments. But even while you're serving in
a in a headquarters, you're basically the the expert on
that particular region that the army assigns you to. So
(10:49):
anytime the the the general needs is going on a
trip to some country and your your assigned region, you're
the guy doing all the paper were getting that person ready,
all the all the talking points, the speech is the
the who's he who's going to meet? You know what
(11:09):
that person's bio is, and what what that person is
interested in talking to you about. What are our national objectives,
national goals for that region, that country, all that thing,
all those things you kind of have to be an
expert on and uh. And then you're the guy that
got the companies, the guy companies, the general, the flag officer.
Then you sit in the back, take notes and then
you can come back and you compile them in it,
(11:30):
you know, in the summarias and keep a continuity book.
And that's kind of that's how our former relations work
by a lot of a lot of Majors and lieutenant
colonel's foreign area officers with with reagion expertise and country
expertise that keep driving that ball, driving that car forward,
kicking the ball forward and.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Speak kind of pseudo State Department and also Department of Defense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, you're dealing with the State Department all the time,
and not just the State Department, with other government agencies
as well. When you're assigned to the embassy, you've got
representatives from pretty much all these three letter agencies actually living,
actually working in the embassy. So you're you're you're talking
(12:16):
to them, you're engaging with them all the time, whether it's.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Formerly at at at work, or or at a reception
later on in the evening at some some foreign leaders residents,
or his.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Place of work or something like that. So yeah, it's
a it's very involved. It's it's being a military diplomat's.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Got to be a small a small group you know
that do that. I imagine, like I said, you probably
went to some specialized school that and then once you
get into that whatever that branches or detail, you're you're
kind of there, right, I would assume it except for
like having to do command time as part of career.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
There's there's not a command track that that leads from
fair I do. I know that there have been some
failures who are who have taken command, but that's a
that's a rare case failed. You basically give up any
command opportunities when you become a failed, which is fine.
I wasn't really concerned about that. Probably wasn't even gonna
(13:17):
get picked up for a command for anything else beyond that.
But you're you're basically I mean, you're you're getting to
see all these and and I was a South Asia expert,
and backstory on that is is, as you all know,
I was born in Pakistan, spoke multiple languages from from
that region. You know, they're not famous languages, but they're
(13:37):
spoken well spoken in and around that That's why, that's
why you gave me that I D badge. Remember well,
I tried to find that ice Pakistani ice I s
I badge, and I didn't find it in time. But yeah,
so I had that background, and that's uh fail branch
was looking for people to to uh FHIL slots in
(13:59):
the US Army Pacific and he was pick coming. Yeah,
as soon as they applied, and they're like, hey, you're
going right out to Hawaii. No. Typically a new failure,
especially these days, they go through training at at Naval
postgraduate School or some other school. They go through grad school,
they go through language training, they'll go through cultural immersion training.
(14:20):
They looked at me and it'said, dude, you already have
all this stuff. We're not paying next, we're not paid
to good or another language. Are not paying you to
go to some other country and hang out for a
year and one now you're going straight out to Hawaii.
It's like and it was learning through the fire hose.
And so my first job, literally my first job, but
(14:40):
I was told within the month you're taking the three
start to India. That's so getting getting him, getting that
guy ready and whatnot. Turns out and this is one
of those fun stories that you asked you. I got
the guy ready, got all the paperwork, and it was
just me. It was other people in the office as well,
But we got him, got gen already and his his
(15:01):
authorage already to go visas. You know, you had to
apply for visas for everybody and want not. The one
person that on the authorage that was supposed to go
with that three star used for Pact commander, the one
person that couldn't get his visa to India was the
guy who was born in Pakistan. So I never got
to go on that trip. But I got a chance
(15:25):
to go subsequently at other times. But on that first trip,
first assignment as a as a fail getting that doing
all the hard work and getting the person ready and
not being able to go that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
You know, they get diplomatic passport, you don't get.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
You only get a diplomatic passport if you're assigned to
an embassy. I think that and that that did play
that did play a role in that I did not
have a a official passport, but I wasn't the only
one that didn't have an official passport, which but they
only denied me. And I'm not crying boo here that
(16:05):
it was just an experience.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It was.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
There was nothing negative about it. We probably would have
done the same thing if somebody's trying to come in
our country that way. But yeah, one of those lessons learned.
You know. It was just a very good all my
favor assignments were just just amazing at a great time,
great people.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, I remember that were urban embassy in what cities?
Did you what areas and countries were in?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
So my official long term PCs assignment was in Katmandu, Nepal.
Did a two year term as a two year term
as an Office of Defense Cooperation Chief for the Office
of Defense Cooperation now in Nepal and the Pols, a
very small country. The ODC shop was just me and
(16:56):
two local people to local guys in other countries we
got where we do a lot of weapons sales and
other things like that, like Saudi Arabia. You just saw
the President come back to Saudi Arabia. Their ODC shop
or Office of Military Cooperation or whatever that goes by
different names. Their ODC shop is probably hundreds of people,
so both American and locals. So it all depends on
(17:20):
how big our our our footprint is in that country.
I just got lucky in that sense that I was
a one man shop, one man, one American man, but
we had, you know, two locals. So it was a
pretty big deal to be the loan security cooperation representative
(17:42):
of the US government to a foreign country. Just it
was yeah, a major You have an ambassador in Paul, Yeah, yeah,
I mean yeah, he was a great guy to work for.
That that man had served in the pall on three
different occasions over a thirty year career, so he knew
Nepal better than someone that believed it. The Chief of
(18:05):
Army Staff when I was there had actually been a
major when this guy who was the ambassador was on
his first tour, so they knew each other from like
twenty thirty years before, so they That was a huge
benefit to us because anytime we were trying to get
the Nepal Army to agree to something or trying to
get them to shift their focus something else, based on
(18:28):
what our national objectives or or priorities were, we could
always I could always go into the ambassadors office in Heysar.
This is I'm kind of hoping you could nudge the
Nepal army to do this with us. And yeah, the
next meeting they had, whether it was over coffee or whatnot,
that point got brought up and then things happened. So yeah,
(18:50):
it was just great to watch the American diplomasy work
right there in front of your face.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, what an interesting person to get the opportunity as
a major you were running the show. Yeah, you know.
Now does your is it an uncompany tour your family get?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Paul was a company tour, So my family had a
great time. My kids got to attend uh International schools
with with families of diplomats of other countries. They even
had the Nepalese royal families children were also attending there.
So my kids actually got to tent school with princes
(19:29):
and princesses of Paul and yeah, they had a great time.
Is this is one of the things I'm grateful for.
So my kids grew up understanding there's a bigger world
out there than just just us and just you know,
whatever they whatever we do here, they they've they've seen
(19:52):
poverty upfront, and they've seen uh, access up front as well.
We lived in Hawai. You know, we saw all these
tourists one on you spend gobs of money and what not,
and then you go to Nepal and you see people
have nothing. Yet who's happier, you know?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, right, experience for your kids. I mean I
lived in Panama as a kid. I mean I got
the reason. It's been big for my wife and I
to make sure all our kids got the traveling and
nationally and see stuff and with student ambassadorships and stuff,
because it is it is. Uh yeah, they need to
see how good we have it back here. And yeah,
the world's a lot bigger than just you know, the
(20:36):
you know, fifty States. Yeah, even even the first world country.
I mean, you still come back and wow, we got
it good compared to even go to first world countries
in Europe or even the Far East and still come
back and realize how much better we have.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well, I mean I deployed the Louisiana for Katrina. I've
never in my life thought that there would be a
place in the United States that would be more assault
into some of their world countries that I've visited. And
this is in the aftermath of it's not like it's
every day, ongoing thing. But yeah, it was just a wreck.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your Afghanistan deployment.
That was at your only it was your only combat
foreign deployment.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Is that right, Uh, yeah, combat deployment in the sense of,
you know, we were actually you know, trigger pollers and
things like that. I went back to that region about
five years later, but it was more I went back
as a fail so it still kind of as a
combat deployment, but I didn't wasn't pulling any trigger, It
wasn't wasn't riding any humbies or anything.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Probably a better environment than the first time.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, I was. Yeah, I was thinking, you know,
I could I could probably pass around and maybe jump
in the back of a humbie. And but we were
when I when I was in Pakistan doing that, we
were being followed everywhere. I know, they you know, if
the I S I or somebody was following us around
all the time. But yeah, not so much in AFU.
(22:06):
But yeah, two tours and two combat tours. One where
you know, we were e T t's together, you know,
you know, we you guys, your team left shelby a
few weeks before us or a month before US, I think,
and then we fell in on you guys, and then
you guys moved over to Sharana, but we were I mean,
(22:31):
you guys were getting hit indirect fire since the day
you got there. And then we took over from you guys,
and we were getting indirect fire all the time, those
those rockets, and then we were, you know, launching out
on qrs. I still remember the left seat right seat
ride that you went you took us on. I don't
know if I should say this, but that whole incident
(22:52):
with the AT four.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Mentioned it that they were in the left seat rights.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, yeah, it had been Can I mention it? Can
I say it? So before we got there, like the
day before we got there, it had apparently falling off
the back of your truck and something broke. Yeah, and
nobody knew if it was if it was gonna function properly.
You know, it was like one of those Taliban grenade
(23:23):
you know, never know, go off in your hand or not.
So I was like, geez, for something, what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
He picked it up, put it on your shoulder, and
fired it into the freaking hill. And I'm like, thank
god man, it didn't blow up in his face.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Yeah, you gotta own it. You gotta own it. But yeah,
that great strap. Everyone's like, oh, everyone just hangs him
on the back of the hatch. Well guess what that
ttp changed after that one. Yeah, oh yeah, bouncing on
those roads. Eventually something's gonna give.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
But yeah, that's one of the subtle member moments I have.
But serve with you and Afennis and that that incident
where you found that before that happened between fob Orgon
and Fob Tillman. That little pass, and what I remember
(24:14):
from that past is that almost everybody that we knew
got hit going through that pass.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Called a pass, I think it's something like that, and
I never did.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I went through that past several times and I never did.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
I'm sure we probably messed with you about that. I'm
sure we had some yeah related jokes.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
I had like packed sandy connects so that that didn't didn't.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Fire, thrown up gang signs or something, you know, Yeah, yeah,
no so so so. Yeah, you came in after we moved,
we did some consolidating, and then you were operating out
of the Organy area. Looking back on that tour, besides that,
first thing. I mean, you know, obviously I know that
battlefield space well too, but you know, you did a
(25:00):
lot of different missions, some we we jointly did. We
definitely saw each other ship here and there. But anything
that stands out from that tour when you think back
to that tour, the people on your team, the people locally,
the incidents of the active duty forces worked alongside two
eight seven catamounts and those folks out of tenth Mountain,
(25:21):
I mean, anything really stand out was just surprising, shocking,
you know, funny, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
There's there's there's a lot. You know, this was a
baptism by fire for a lot of us on our team.
I'm sure it was the same for you. I think
we only had like three or four people that had
been to Iraq before and actually been in combat, some
wounded as well, but the rest of us were virgins
when it came to that. So the first first few
(25:49):
missions UH during q RF and response to to UH
rocket attacks, going up and finding the two sides and whatnot,
those are those are some some some of the most
interesting missions that went on. And then later on as
as the deployments. As the deployment went on, we we
did a lot of work with the the Tenth Mountain
on multi day, multi week missions where we were out
(26:12):
of the FOB for long periods of times, and just
just the interaction. I mean, I had no problems with
the Tenth Mountain people. They're they're great, they mean, good
soldiers all around. But to see how they work with
the A NA, how we worked with the ANA, and
how the how limited we basically had to pick our
(26:36):
battles because the A n A didn't have everything that
they needed to do the operations with and whatnot, and
and culturally we didn't understand a lot of things are
the Tenth Mountain people didn't understand because but because we
spent a lot of time with the ANA, we understood
that there's some some aspects to how they operated that
(26:57):
probably weren't kosher. Like lighting up a village before we
went into you know who the who did all the
all the searches and whatnot. It was the etts in
the A n A, right, But if you're lighting up
a village before we go into that village, you're basically
setting this up for failure. That was my view, And
(27:17):
and so we kind of had a couple of back
and forth with with the with the Tenth Mountain, and
you know, they they had their their ways of doing things.
And one of the things that stands out to me,
and I don't know if who was we we we
got to a village and it was just bombed out,
and I don't think it was us that did it.
(27:38):
I don't have any proof it was us that or
who did it. But uh, I remember the Ana bringing
out bodies of little children, burnt like blacked out bodies,
little children. They were carrying them like you carry a
rag doll, you know, like like with the foot and
the things flopping around, and that image. Those images have
(28:00):
stuck with me all these years, and you talk about
having nightmares and things like that. That's that's what that's
what did it?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Or did they see it?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I'm sorry to say that again.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Did the A and A Were they bothered by it?
Or were they just nonchalant like you know Inala like
you know, just like.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I never I never saw the an A bothered by
by things like that, which is alsoturban.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
They become so numb to it, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So I mean that's something that there's there's there's fun
times that stick out. All the bars that we did
with with you guys. The the the fact that the
Ana would never eat our m or e s, but
they're happy. They were happy to take the cast that
we gave them and go buy a couple of goats
and and kill them right there and cook them up
because they you know, they carried that an entire truck
(28:54):
full of pots and pants, remember that, right, They were
employed with pots and.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Pants pressure cookers for rice.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, and they would cook that stuff up right there
in the middle of the night and then and have
you come to share it with them. And it was amazing,
you know. Our army couldn't live like that.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Yeah, yeah, especially during Ramadan and all that.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, just impressive.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Had some good ones down there, right three two Kandak,
especially after where I went. I mean, there was a
lot of those guys we missed, uh you know Rambo,
you know, and you know that the one first sergeant
I remember, he was Persian from Iran, really good guy.
There's a number of them that were really solid. They
were definitely a lot more combat troops than what I
(29:40):
was dealing with. And the Kandak we moved to.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I love the fact that I never needed a turp.
I never needed to Turp because because you know, during
the during the Russian times, some of these officers went
to live when lived in Pakistan and came back to
fight the talent man. When they were in Pakistan, they
learned all the customs and cultures that packed stand languages
and whatnot. So my turp was he's a nice guy,
(30:03):
but he's pretty much useless to me, because I would
just go up right up to the commander and grab
him by his hold and say, this is what we
need to do, you know, And it was great. It
was great.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Did you did they seem standoffish or afraid of you
because you knew their language, or did you find that
they respected you and appreciated that you could talk with them?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
If I may be so bold as to say, I
think they loved me. They enjoyed having They loved it
when I was around. They preferred having me around versus
some guy speaking English that wasn't really making it clear
through a through a third party, through a turph. They
love Bradley because you know you remember Bradley, right. So
(30:46):
this is this is another funny thing, is that only
in our team did we have a black guy and
a Pakistani guy, and they put both of us in
the same Hume beat for seven months. There was a
lot of chicken curry and fried chicken jokes going on
still to this day. In fact, I want to see him.
I'm going to see Bradley this weekend.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Oh good god, AMers froze up again to say, now, yeah,
that's that's that's right. I mean, he's he was a character.
He's a character himself. And and I forgot you guys
were teammate. Uh, you guys were teamed up together. You
guys were the officer n c O pair, right, you're
on your team. But yeah, no, that's that's interesting because
you know, I just didn't know if they ever did, like,
you know, looked at you as being you know, your
(31:25):
Pakistan background, because obviously there was such a bias from
from some not all in Afghanistan, but that was ever
an issue.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
No, And you know when we when we went through
Shelby stand and of course you remember we learned four
months of nothing. But oh I have tactics in Shelby,
remember that's right. Yeah, there's good veterans teaching us how
to fight in Afghanistan. Yeah, you have nothing on them.
That's they were doing their job. But that's not what
we've been So we kept getting told, Hey, yeah, the
(31:54):
the locals are going to teach you like this, and
the locals are going to teach you like this. Locals
don't like someone how do you know, we're not your
experiences Iraq? Ours is Afghanistan. And so some of the
some of the few ones that had served in Afghanistan,
that'll be like, yeah, the hate pakistanis the hate Pakistani.
So okay, we'll deal with they want to get there,
(32:15):
and so that was sort of in the back of
my mind, but it turned out.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
To be nothing. Well even and they could have been
from rot Or Comb. They wouldn't have known what it's
like down in the in the pack in the Pack
border region.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
They would have been like being, Hey, I'm from Seattle.
I don't know what it's like in Alabama. Right, It's
like you, I don't know how they they do things,
you know. But uh yeah, So so looking at that
and looking at your other deployment back there and other things,
uh and just the deploy you got this unique perspective
of working, you know, as a foreign area officer. Is
(32:48):
there any compare control, Is there any like you know,
compares that between between a combat deployment some of those
just in dealing with people or how to negotiate or
any of that kind of stuff. Because you know, even
as even though we were a combat zone, is etts
you know which I think the National Guard is a
great role for that or feel for that need is
it because a lot of etts come from a civilian world.
(33:11):
They have negotiating, they have other skills outside of military
and they you know, some of them have very good
negotiating skills, which is really what it was all about. Yeah,
but ao stuff, How does those how those shake out?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Uh, those skills come in really handy. You know, you're
tested and come you're negotiating skills tested and tested in
the crystal bowl of combat. Uh, they come in really handy.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
All those key leader engagements that we we we want
on all those you know, being you know, having being
focused on what you need to talk about, what you
need to ask, what you need to say, because you
know your your time is very limited. If you stay
in a place too long, you can be targeted. That
kind of stuff. And and those aren't just things that
(34:01):
were making up. It actually happened to our guys. If
they have to hung out at a bob somewhere. I
have to hung out in the village too long. Look
look at one on you know, if you look at
if you hung out at a village so long, you
became a target and sort of being an asset. And
so the whole talking to people, communicating, negotiating things. I
thought you had to do it in the timely manner.
You had to go in with a plan. You had
(34:22):
to go in knowing what you were going to say
and knowing what you what you were trying to get
out of out of the locals, and and then you
had to get out.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
But you wanted to respect their their traditions and culture
of Chai time and all. You know, there's a lot
of yep, that was a big thing. Right by the way,
your video is frozen in, but you know that was
a big thing of you know, we come in as
Americans were very much bottom line up front, you know,
boom boom boom, bulletized kind of stuff. And that was
kind of a cultural shift for a lot of folks
over there. You're going over there because you know, you
(34:54):
may have something important to talk to about, but they
first want to sit down and you know, have some
warm up here, so you have to do balance that
with the same time, going I don't want to be
stuck here too long.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah. Yeah, So a lot of a lot of lessons
learned that that that were you.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Think benefited you as a foreign Area officer that you
picked up in Afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, yeah, and know, yeah, I mean just dealing when
you're a foreign Area officer, you're almost always surrounded by
freaking high ranking officers, both ours and foreign countries, and
so just just learning how to talk to people all
sorts of different backgrounds and cultures and things like that.
That was definitely plus.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Anything from your FAO duties that that really stand out.
Any you obviously had a lot more severe interaction there
and stuff like that. Any experiences funny that just are
lightning or just that opened your eyes and just re
educated you in something that just like you never thought
of something that way, or did not know about something.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
There's way twenty mentioned. I just just the opportunity to
travel to all these different places that I never never
would have gotten a chance to travel to and learn
about the culture and meet people and see things and
do things. It just bothered us my mind, especially for
somebody who came from you know, po dunk freaking Pakistan.
(36:16):
You know this, this is this is the thing that
that I tell people and I tell my kids. It's like, dude,
no other country, no other country could could this happen? Yeah.
I remember standing in line as a as a nine
or ten year old outside of the US embss US
consulate in Lahore in freaking hot as hell weather, waiting
(36:39):
in line to get our visa. Uh and then twenty
twenty five, thirty years later, sitting next to the US
ambassador helping or watching US diplomacy at work. No other
country with that is that even possible. It's just just
(36:59):
grateful for the opportunities and the lessons learned, and and
and the things that the Army allowed me to do
and and to to to you know, just and and
allow my family to do at the same time, and
(37:20):
in the life that we're living now. It's just it's
all started with me not having enough money to pay
for college. It's it's I guess the one thing, one
thing that I'm really grateful for is that, you know,
I spent the first ten years of my life as
as a combat arms guy, basically essentially learning how to
(37:41):
kill people. And destroy things. But the rest of the time,
one of the most significant things and as a fail
is that one of in Nepal, one of our goals
was to help Nepaal get ready for for a disaster.
You know, there's a reason why Nepaul's got all these
high mountains because there's all the plate shifting and things
(38:01):
like that happening. It's on the balls, you know, do
for an earthquake. And that was one of our focuses
as a US government, is to help them get ready
for that eventuality. So we've provided them equipment, We've provided
them training, we provided them all sorts of resources to
be able to handle those and then just so happens
(38:22):
about four about six or seven months after I left Nepal,
it was hit with a huge earthquake. And I am
grateful that some of the things that I was able
to do and some of the things that people before
me were able to do help save lives, and that
I be forever grateful for that. Ye your videos, anybody
(38:43):
was it was a combat officer. Never I don't even
remember pulling a triggery and anger. They needn't understand or
at anybody, But I I got to save lives.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, that's awesome. Your video FROs again man things just
giving you hit. No, it's that's uh. That contribution is
is great. I mean, obviously we all made contributions. We
did in the combat zone. But at the end of
the day, you win your little battles and that kind
of stuff. But as we saw unfortunately by the fall
of Cobble and everything else, it doesn't mean you affect
(39:16):
the change of the greater of the big picture. How
has that been? Just real quick as we get ready
to wrap, I was looking back. I mean obviously Afghan
Vet myself and you know, surrounded by a ton of them,
continue to work with a lot of them and stay
in contact. I mean that, you know, the fall of
Cobble has had a big effect on a lot of
(39:36):
people in a lot of different ways. And I'm sure
a lot of people come to you for counsel and
also you still stay in touch with people. I'm just
curious from your perspective, how has that impacted folks, How
how has that been taken?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know, I had a I had a meaning very
shortly as it was going on with with with my
one of my company command who also was on that
deployment with us, but he was down in the Candle
Heart region and we were literally in tears. We're eating
burgers and we were literally in tears talking about all
(40:11):
the wasted time, wasted lives, wasted energy. And that's just
from a purely human perspective, right, But if you look
at it from a geopolitical perspective, what the fuck? Why
why would we leave like that? Why would we give
up so much? Why would we just leave shit laying
around for somebody else and now for our kids to
(40:34):
to have to fight in the next wor war? Right,
why would we do that? What? What kind of what
kind of leaders do we have that then, in the
greatest country in the world, how do we allow that
to have?
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Well, you know, it's in hindsight after that. I mean,
I was involved a little bit during that with helping
a couple of different groups getting people out. It was
a great honor to do it. My employers were great,
They just let me just go cart blind away from
work and I was just working stuff NonStop. But in hindsight,
as I looked back and stuff, I thought, Man, I
(41:08):
don't know if the right words ironic or what it is,
but that you know, in the GWAT years, all the
global war and terror. Right, what you saw and I
saw we all did, right that the American people went
above and beyond, even when I was a desert storm, right,
they went above and beyond to make sure that they
didn't do what they did the Vietnam vets. Right, they
(41:28):
thanked everybody, you know, they thanked us, and there was
all this stuff and accolade, and obviously you probably saw
it too. A lot of Vietnam vets came out, and
I think a lot of g WAT vets made sure
they reached out to them to thank them, because it
was almost this is just Troy's you know, opinion and impersonation.
It was almost like the country as a whole felt
guilty as they should for how they treated the Vietnam vets.
(41:51):
So they made sure they went above and beyond for us.
But then I looked at it come full circle that wow,
you know, we in Afghanistan especially, it became then Afghanistan
kind of became similar to Korea and the fact that
it kind of became a forgotten war compared to Iraq. Right,
you know, when we were there, there were people didn't
even know we were there. I'm sure, I know people
(42:12):
in Might that I consider very knowledgeable education with people
that did not even realize we were still in Afghanistan
because all they saw was Iraq all the time. Afghanistan
kind of became that forgotten war in the mid two thousands.
But then it came full circle and we left just
as bad, if not worse than how we pulled out
of Vietnam. And it's like, like I said, I don't
(42:32):
know the right word that you would use to make
that comparison, but it was like America went above and
beyond for us because of how they treated the people
in Vietnam, Yet we came back and had our same
Saigone moment, except it was people falling off of C fives.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, it just seems like we don't learn our lessons. Well, yeah,
there's plenty of lessons to be learned. Why don't we
learn them? Why don't know our leaders learn them? So
it's just I mean, it's just the whole thing was
just disappointing. Is even though freaking private, I could tell
you the DUTs that was jacked.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Dope, Yeah, even without losing lives, Yeah, we lost anyone
who still would I mean, I thought for sure I remember,
and we were there and after it came back, you know,
doing podcasts and interviews and all stuff, and I would say,
we've got a presence there forever. I just I could
not fathom that we would ever give up Bogram, that
we would keep it, just like we're still in Korea,
just like we're still in Germany. I would tell people
(43:30):
that would you couldn't tell me otherwise, like, no, we
are there. We've got a foothold in Southwest Asia, uh forever,
because we can hold on Bogram and have a have
a point of you know, uh, a point to launch
from and maintain stability and all that stuff. Would never
have considered we'd ever give that up. Not We're still
in Germany, We're still in Korea, We're still in countries
all over the globe. It's like, you know, but yeah,
(43:54):
I was just curious that what you saw on her
and and not that I was your your reactions are
the same as everyone else's. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, let mean, look, at the end of the day,
I'm an American, right, an American soldier. I'm not I
make fun of the fact that I'm born in Pakistan
and and and well I have an honorary badness as
I'm an honorary or or a member of the is S.
I given to me by first artist Steward.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
But at the end I have that.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I literally have the badge. I just couldn't find it today.
I don't know that. It's probably one of the boxes
behind me. But yeah, but my son's following him. Actually,
I can't even say he's following my footstuff. He's already
surpassed me.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
He's great. I love watching his progress through your Facebook.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, in twelve years of being an infantry and I
couldn't make it the Ranger school and the dude's already
already there. So it's like, yeah, but yeah, it's my
my opinions and and and that and my family and whatnot,
similar to whatever probably every other veteran family had when
(45:08):
we saw that stuff on TV. I'm like, what are
we doing?
Speaker 3 (45:12):
The hell?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
And I was just glad I wasn't there because that
it's it's it's one thing to be there and and
none know what's going on. Then to be there and
be led by fucking incompetent people.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Yeah again, but no, I think of those guys a lot.
I know some that went over to help out and
do stuff like that. But they got I mean it
was obviously a small unit, some marines, some some army,
but what they saw not even just the ones that
were near the bombing. But I mean, we we've all
seen the pictures of the passing, the babies over the wire,
all that stuff. I've heard stories through connected people and
(45:50):
stuff that they are those folks are going through a
different level of hell of PTSD than someone do a
regular combat tour because it was focused. It was like
constant traded right where we had a year spread out,
a lot of boredom and excitement. They had, you know,
a few weeks of just mass bullshit, chaos concentrated down
(46:11):
into you know, a very tight space that they're going
through a lot.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
And the people we saved, you know, all those flights
full of Afghans, those people aren't aren't having an easy
life either. I know some of them they're they're they're hurting,
they can't some of them. Some of them don't have jobs.
They have kids, but no way to pay for those kids,
no way to raise them. No, you know they're.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
There, you know, parents, grandparents and stuff.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yeah, siblings, But they may have been an engineer, or
a doctor or whatever in Afghanistan. Here they can barely
make it as an uber driver, Right, that's what they're doing,
and they're they're gonna have a hard time, but their
kids are going to grow.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Up strong and and lots hopefully than they would have
for sure. I hope.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
I think we were strong Americans and not strong something else.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah. Well, hey, David Man, I appreciate you coming on
giving to some of your time tonight. We talked about
a lot and it was awesome because I say, you
bring a perspective that you know a very small group
can even relate to. Is there anything we didn't cover
or talk about that you'd like to have our listeners
and viewers know about, or any anything else, any topics
(47:25):
or anything you want to just promote.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
No, I think we generally covered everything top there's an
honor serving with you. As an honor is talk to
you again. Like I said, looked up to you for
nineteen years now. We haven't met since since in nineteen years.
We'll probably we probably should fix that.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Sometimes we tried to a couple of times, haven't. We're
able to link up at the inauguration and other places,
and you've been bouncing around, but we will. I get
down your neck of woods pretty often, so I'm sure
i'm gonna find my way down there again.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
All right, man, and we'll be good.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
All right.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Say how to the team when you talk to them,
I still remember them.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Yeah, sure will. Yeah, I'm gonna make sure they know
about this this episode. So hey, good to see your brother.
Stay safe and we'll be staying in touch.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Take care, h
Hm, I've got no reason, the cheek of a killing
(00:24):
sea with a need to blease you where the light goes.
Bring Let's believe him in the zone to me from
a end of a yanko, a yane s but a grill.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Let's say when you call the meat because.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I'm weird, I'm a one of a kind, and I'll
bring death to the glacier about to meet another river
of blood running under my feet, forging to fire it
long ago. Stand next to me, You'll never stand alone.
I'm last to leave, but the first to go.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The Lord, make me death before.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
You make me a feet on the fear of the
devil inside of the enemy faces in my sight, being
with a hand or shoe, with a mind, gill with
a heart like our jam guys, So I am worry
(01:17):
and this is the waste to the ground.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I read you, Lee, Ma Charlie, loud and clear.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
All right, everyone, Welcome to another episode of Lee with Charlie.
David was that some of those pictures look familiar. They
probably are, broke.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I think I think I was there on some of
those missions with you.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I think so, uh, And we're videos frozing it, but
hopefully it comes unfrozen. Uh yeah, I thought you might
recognize a couple of those, but with David Lukeman, a
good friend of mine. Yeah, we lost video, but you're
still there. I think there we go. Uh. Deployed multiple times,
has an awesome, exciting career. So glad to have you
on tonight. Man. Thank you for making time to come
(02:04):
on and give us some of your stories from down range.
And good to see you again. It's been a long time,
my friend.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, good to see you again. And before we get
started it, I just want to say it was nineteen
years ago that you and I shared the barriage together,
our team and yours, and that's where that's where we
met and got to know each other and sort of
looked up to you ever since on the battlefield as well,
and on your podcast, and just amazed by the people
(02:31):
that you have on your podcast. That's why I was
a little concerned that, you know, with all the heroes
of you've had on there, I don't know why you'd
be asking me to do this, But I'm here because
a friend asked me, not because I've accomplished anything great
or anything like that. So good to see you again.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Yeah. I can't believe it's been nineteen years. First, let
me say that that's insane that it is, but it
has been. You're right, but we first met gracing the
skies under a Shelby stand all that. But yeah, it's uh, no,
I appreciate many look just like all the people you've
seen on this show and everything, right, all of them
(03:07):
were just dudes doing the girls, doing their job, and uh,
none of them feel that way. But you know, for
the for the ninety nine percent of Americans that have
never been down range or don't even know anyone, it
has right, it's it's it's a chance for them to
hear these stories, for sure, But every one of us
have good ones to tell, which is well, I'm glad
to hear you. Thank you for the kind words, and
let's get going. So, yeah, you were I know some
(03:29):
of your career, but honestly, you know, when you're down
range and you're running missions, we're not. You know, you
and I weren't at the at the level of rank
where we're just sitting in the guard shack all night,
you know, hearing everyone's backstory. So I don't know a
lot of it. So I'm glad to have you on
and uh, well, we'll start with kind of who you
are and when you join, why you joined, and how
that whole process went. What what motivated you to join?
(03:50):
Step forward and raise your hand.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Lack of lack of funding. Uh, it's I think that's
probably common response. I was in college, uh attended, was
attending the University of Portland where my father was teaching.
So my first year in college was basically paid for
because he was an instructor there. And then he h
he applied for and didn't get his tenure. So all
(04:18):
that free moolah or free college education sort of was
on the verge of going out of the window. And
I didn't see any other options other than either dropping
out and going getting a job somewhere or continue on
with some other source of funting. And and I literally
(04:39):
walked my happy ass into the Army RTC office on
campus and said, Hey, I need to pay for college
and I'm hoping you guys can do that. And so
that's how I got into ROTC. And and and the
truth of it is, when I walked in, I wasn't
even eligible for a scholarship because I wasn't a a
(05:00):
US citizen of times, so I had to I had
to take out loans for one more year, and then
I had to go to Fort Knox, Kentucky for RTC
basic camps. It was they for the entire year they
did basic training for private but like one one term
out of the year they did basic training for ROTC cadets.
(05:23):
And that's where RTC cadets got to compete for scholarships.
And I not not because of any brains or academic achievements,
but purely out of physical Uh busted my ass. I
earned a two year scholarship and that's how I paid
for the rest of my college, not knowing even not
(05:44):
even not even knowing at that time what being an
army officer entailed. I was just trying to get trying
to pay for college, right.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Right, your video is frozen into so you now, I
don't know if you can tell that on your side
or not, but no, So it's just funny, right the
old story he is like, you know, go to war,
go to jail. Yours was I need to get through
college or uh or I'm not. So that's that's the
way it happened. So you got you earned that two
year scholarship. You're able to do your junior and senior
(06:13):
year and and get and get contracted and all that.
What how did you branch? Was there something you wanted
to get in and didn't did you get what you wanted?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So my my father was a was an electrical engineer,
and I thought that I would h try one of
these technical branches and you know, and maybe get something
out of the army and and follow my father's footsteps.
So my first choice was Signal Corps. And then you
had to list of one of your top three choices
had to be had to be a combat armors branch.
(06:46):
I think I listed signal Corps is my top Ordnance
and armor were my top three choices, And as the
Army would have it, I got none of those. And
not only did I get active duty, I was sold
I was getting a reserve commission. This was right around
the time, you know, right after the Gulf War had ended,
and Bill Clinton was pretty big on oh yeahising the
(07:08):
army and things like that. So a lot of the
non nursing cadets didn't get there, didn't get their top
choices or there or active duty commission. So that's what
caused me to uh then join the forty first Brigade,
in Oregon Thetubagade. So I was an infantry officer, not
(07:32):
what I wanted, but looking back thirty years thirty years ago,
I wouldn't I wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Yeah. It's funny because a lot of guys, right you know,
young Bravado, they either want to go infantry and all
the who who is stuff? Or or or not? And
then then some get a little bit of both. Right,
they get insured for a couple of years and the
branch detail into something else or whatever? Does do they
do branch detail in the guard or once you get
in that's your.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Bran that's I think that's I think that's once you
get in, that's it.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, active will do that, but probably Guard not because
of the cost and shared cost of between the reserve component.
And so infantry officer got in did that and then uh,
and then how long ago? So you're retired now, right?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I am? Yeah, I've been retired to seven years now.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, it seems like a long day. It seems like
a the uh. Yeah, and so you did how many
years total?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So it was in the Horgan Guard, uh for eleven
and a half years, from like from May of two
thousand and six to right after we came back from
the Afghanistan deployment. So yeah, about eleven and a half years,
did five deployments with them, did all the all the leadership.
(08:45):
I was a I was a platoon leader for multiple
different platoons, and probably was a lieutenant a lot longer
than lieutenants stay lieutenant these days. So battalions, battalion number,
gay staff time, company command and uh it was an
even even in a g R for a couple of years.
(09:06):
And uh then h after the after the Afghanistan deployment,
I just needed to make a change for myself and
my my family, and uh uh looked into some options.
I was thinking about just getting out altogether. After the
Afghanistan deployment. I've done everything. I pretty much checked the
block for for everything infantry related, right, company command, very
(09:29):
very you know, not everybody gets picked up battalion command.
So I figured, hey, company command, meeting troops in combat,
that's probably the pinnacle of an infustry career. Right. So
I was thinking about getting out, going to college, uh,
getting in a real job, and uh it just so
happens that there was a demand for my people with
(09:50):
my background and my language skills and and they were
willing to pay for UH master's degree and and let
me travel the world and well not so the fail
branch appealed to me and applied to them UH and
got accepted and that was the rest of my career.
So I went from being the National guardsment for the
(10:12):
first half of my career and then an activity Foreign
Area officer for the for the rest of my time.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, I want to I want to define that for people. Yeah,
fails foreign Area officer, which is are Now what is
that role? That's that's like embassy work around Then.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's a lot like being being a diplomat, being a
uniformed military diplomat, because you serve because the assignments they're
not all embassy assignments. But even while you're serving in
a in a headquarters, you're basically the the expert on
that particular region that the army assigns you to. So
(10:49):
anytime the the the general needs is going on a
trip to some country and your your assigned region, you're
the guy doing all the paper were getting that person ready,
all the all the talking points, the speech is the
the who's he who's going to meet? You know what
(11:09):
that person's bio is, and what what that person is
interested in talking to you about. What are our national objectives,
national goals for that region, that country, all that thing,
all those things you kind of have to be an
expert on and uh. And then you're the guy that
got the companies, the guy companies, the general, the flag officer.
Then you sit in the back, take notes and then
you can come back and you compile them in it,
(11:30):
you know, in the summarias and keep a continuity book.
And that's kind of that's how our former relations work
by a lot of a lot of Majors and lieutenant
colonel's foreign area officers with with reagion expertise and country
expertise that keep driving that ball, driving that car forward,
kicking the ball forward and.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Speak kind of pseudo State Department and also Department of Defense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, you're dealing with the State Department all the time,
and not just the State Department, with other government agencies
as well. When you're assigned to the embassy, you've got
representatives from pretty much all these three letter agencies actually living,
actually working in the embassy. So you're you're you're talking
(12:16):
to them, you're engaging with them all the time, whether it's.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Formerly at at at work, or or at a reception
later on in the evening at some some foreign leaders residents,
or his.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Place of work or something like that. So yeah, it's
a it's very involved. It's it's being a military diplomat's.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Got to be a small a small group you know
that do that. I imagine, like I said, you probably
went to some specialized school that and then once you
get into that whatever that branches or detail, you're you're
kind of there, right, I would assume it except for
like having to do command time as part of career.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
There's there's not a command track that that leads from
fair I do. I know that there have been some
failures who are who have taken command, but that's a
that's a rare case failed. You basically give up any
command opportunities when you become a failed, which is fine.
I wasn't really concerned about that. Probably wasn't even gonna
(13:17):
get picked up for a command for anything else beyond that.
But you're you're basically I mean, you're you're getting to
see all these and and I was a South Asia expert,
and backstory on that is is, as you all know,
I was born in Pakistan, spoke multiple languages from from
that region. You know, they're not famous languages, but they're
(13:37):
spoken well spoken in and around that That's why, that's
why you gave me that I D badge. Remember well,
I tried to find that ice Pakistani ice I s
I badge, and I didn't find it in time. But yeah,
so I had that background, and that's uh fail branch
was looking for people to to uh FHIL slots in
(13:59):
the US Army Pacific and he was pick coming. Yeah,
as soon as they applied, and they're like, hey, you're
going right out to Hawaii. No. Typically a new failure,
especially these days, they go through training at at Naval
postgraduate School or some other school. They go through grad school,
they go through language training, they'll go through cultural immersion training.
(14:20):
They looked at me and it'said, dude, you already have
all this stuff. We're not paying next, we're not paid
to good or another language. Are not paying you to
go to some other country and hang out for a
year and one now you're going straight out to Hawaii.
It's like and it was learning through the fire hose.
And so my first job, literally my first job, but
(14:40):
I was told within the month you're taking the three
start to India. That's so getting getting him, getting that
guy ready and whatnot. Turns out and this is one
of those fun stories that you asked you. I got
the guy ready, got all the paperwork, and it was
just me. It was other people in the office as well,
But we got him, got gen already and his his
(15:01):
authorage already to go visas. You know, you had to
apply for visas for everybody and want not. The one
person that on the authorage that was supposed to go
with that three star used for Pact commander, the one
person that couldn't get his visa to India was the
guy who was born in Pakistan. So I never got
to go on that trip. But I got a chance
(15:25):
to go subsequently at other times. But on that first trip,
first assignment as a as a fail getting that doing
all the hard work and getting the person ready and
not being able to go that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
You know, they get diplomatic passport, you don't get.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
You only get a diplomatic passport if you're assigned to
an embassy. I think that and that that did play
that did play a role in that I did not
have a a official passport, but I wasn't the only
one that didn't have an official passport, which but they
only denied me. And I'm not crying boo here that
(16:05):
it was just an experience.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It was.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
There was nothing negative about it. We probably would have
done the same thing if somebody's trying to come in
our country that way. But yeah, one of those lessons learned.
You know. It was just a very good all my
favor assignments were just just amazing at a great time,
great people.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, I remember that were urban embassy in what cities?
Did you what areas and countries were in?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
So my official long term PCs assignment was in Katmandu, Nepal.
Did a two year term as a two year term
as an Office of Defense Cooperation Chief for the Office
of Defense Cooperation now in Nepal and the Pols, a
very small country. The ODC shop was just me and
(16:56):
two local people to local guys in other countries we
got where we do a lot of weapons sales and
other things like that, like Saudi Arabia. You just saw
the President come back to Saudi Arabia. Their ODC shop
or Office of Military Cooperation or whatever that goes by
different names. Their ODC shop is probably hundreds of people,
so both American and locals. So it all depends on
(17:20):
how big our our our footprint is in that country.
I just got lucky in that sense that I was
a one man shop, one man, one American man, but
we had, you know, two locals. So it was a
pretty big deal to be the loan security cooperation representative
(17:42):
of the US government to a foreign country. Just it
was yeah, a major You have an ambassador in Paul, Yeah, yeah,
I mean yeah, he was a great guy to work for.
That that man had served in the pall on three
different occasions over a thirty year career, so he knew
Nepal better than someone that believed it. The Chief of
(18:05):
Army Staff when I was there had actually been a
major when this guy who was the ambassador was on
his first tour, so they knew each other from like
twenty thirty years before, so they That was a huge
benefit to us because anytime we were trying to get
the Nepal Army to agree to something or trying to
get them to shift their focus something else, based on
(18:28):
what our national objectives or or priorities were, we could
always I could always go into the ambassadors office in Heysar.
This is I'm kind of hoping you could nudge the
Nepal army to do this with us. And yeah, the
next meeting they had, whether it was over coffee or whatnot,
that point got brought up and then things happened. So yeah,
(18:50):
it was just great to watch the American diplomasy work
right there in front of your face.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, what an interesting person to get the opportunity as
a major you were running the show. Yeah, you know.
Now does your is it an uncompany tour your family get?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Paul was a company tour, So my family had a
great time. My kids got to attend uh International schools
with with families of diplomats of other countries. They even
had the Nepalese royal families children were also attending there.
So my kids actually got to tent school with princes
(19:29):
and princesses of Paul and yeah, they had a great time.
Is this is one of the things I'm grateful for.
So my kids grew up understanding there's a bigger world
out there than just just us and just you know,
whatever they whatever we do here, they they've they've seen
(19:52):
poverty upfront, and they've seen uh, access up front as well.
We lived in Hawai. You know, we saw all these
tourists one on you spend gobs of money and what not,
and then you go to Nepal and you see people
have nothing. Yet who's happier, you know?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, right, experience for your kids. I mean I
lived in Panama as a kid. I mean I got
the reason. It's been big for my wife and I
to make sure all our kids got the traveling and
nationally and see stuff and with student ambassadorships and stuff,
because it is it is. Uh yeah, they need to
see how good we have it back here. And yeah,
the world's a lot bigger than just you know, the
(20:36):
you know, fifty States. Yeah, even even the first world country.
I mean, you still come back and wow, we got
it good compared to even go to first world countries
in Europe or even the Far East and still come
back and realize how much better we have.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well, I mean I deployed the Louisiana for Katrina. I've
never in my life thought that there would be a
place in the United States that would be more assault
into some of their world countries that I've visited. And
this is in the aftermath of it's not like it's
every day, ongoing thing. But yeah, it was just a wreck.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your Afghanistan deployment.
That was at your only it was your only combat
foreign deployment.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Is that right, Uh, yeah, combat deployment in the sense of,
you know, we were actually you know, trigger pollers and
things like that. I went back to that region about
five years later, but it was more I went back
as a fail so it still kind of as a
combat deployment, but I didn't wasn't pulling any trigger, It
wasn't wasn't riding any humbies or anything.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Probably a better environment than the first time.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, I was. Yeah, I was thinking, you know,
I could I could probably pass around and maybe jump
in the back of a humbie. And but we were
when I when I was in Pakistan doing that, we
were being followed everywhere. I know, they you know, if
the I S I or somebody was following us around
all the time. But yeah, not so much in AFU.
(22:06):
But yeah, two tours and two combat tours. One where
you know, we were e T t's together, you know,
you know, we you guys, your team left shelby a
few weeks before us or a month before US, I think,
and then we fell in on you guys, and then
you guys moved over to Sharana, but we were I mean,
(22:31):
you guys were getting hit indirect fire since the day
you got there. And then we took over from you guys,
and we were getting indirect fire all the time, those
those rockets, and then we were, you know, launching out
on qrs. I still remember the left seat right seat
ride that you went you took us on. I don't
know if I should say this, but that whole incident
(22:52):
with the AT four.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Mentioned it that they were in the left seat rights.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, yeah, it had been Can I mention it? Can
I say it? So before we got there, like the
day before we got there, it had apparently falling off
the back of your truck and something broke. Yeah, and
nobody knew if it was if it was gonna function properly.
You know, it was like one of those Taliban grenade
(23:23):
you know, never know, go off in your hand or not.
So I was like, geez, for something, what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
He picked it up, put it on your shoulder, and
fired it into the freaking hill. And I'm like, thank
god man, it didn't blow up in his face.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Yeah, you gotta own it. You gotta own it. But yeah,
that great strap. Everyone's like, oh, everyone just hangs him
on the back of the hatch. Well guess what that
ttp changed after that one. Yeah, oh yeah, bouncing on
those roads. Eventually something's gonna give.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
But yeah, that's one of the subtle member moments I have.
But serve with you and Afennis and that that incident
where you found that before that happened between fob Orgon
and Fob Tillman. That little pass, and what I remember
(24:14):
from that past is that almost everybody that we knew
got hit going through that pass.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Called a pass, I think it's something like that, and
I never did.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I went through that past several times and I never did.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
I'm sure we probably messed with you about that. I'm
sure we had some yeah related jokes.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
I had like packed sandy connects so that that didn't didn't.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Fire, thrown up gang signs or something, you know, Yeah, yeah,
no so so so. Yeah, you came in after we moved,
we did some consolidating, and then you were operating out
of the Organy area. Looking back on that tour, besides that,
first thing. I mean, you know, obviously I know that
battlefield space well too, but you know, you did a
(25:00):
lot of different missions, some we we jointly did. We
definitely saw each other ship here and there. But anything
that stands out from that tour when you think back
to that tour, the people on your team, the people locally,
the incidents of the active duty forces worked alongside two
eight seven catamounts and those folks out of tenth Mountain,
(25:21):
I mean, anything really stand out was just surprising, shocking,
you know, funny, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
There's there's there's a lot. You know, this was a
baptism by fire for a lot of us on our team.
I'm sure it was the same for you. I think
we only had like three or four people that had
been to Iraq before and actually been in combat, some
wounded as well, but the rest of us were virgins
when it came to that. So the first first few
(25:49):
missions UH during q RF and response to to UH
rocket attacks, going up and finding the two sides and whatnot,
those are those are some some some of the most
interesting missions that went on. And then later on as
as the deployments. As the deployment went on, we we
did a lot of work with the the Tenth Mountain
on multi day, multi week missions where we were out
(26:12):
of the FOB for long periods of times, and just
just the interaction. I mean, I had no problems with
the Tenth Mountain people. They're they're great, they mean, good
soldiers all around. But to see how they work with
the A NA, how we worked with the ANA, and
how the how limited we basically had to pick our
(26:36):
battles because the A n A didn't have everything that
they needed to do the operations with and whatnot, and
and culturally we didn't understand a lot of things are
the Tenth Mountain people didn't understand because but because we
spent a lot of time with the ANA, we understood
that there's some some aspects to how they operated that
(26:57):
probably weren't kosher. Like lighting up a village before we
went into you know who the who did all the
all the searches and whatnot. It was the etts in
the A n A, right, But if you're lighting up
a village before we go into that village, you're basically
setting this up for failure. That was my view, And
(27:17):
and so we kind of had a couple of back
and forth with with the with the Tenth Mountain, and
you know, they they had their their ways of doing things.
And one of the things that stands out to me,
and I don't know if who was we we we
got to a village and it was just bombed out,
and I don't think it was us that did it.
(27:38):
I don't have any proof it was us that or
who did it. But uh, I remember the Ana bringing
out bodies of little children, burnt like blacked out bodies,
little children. They were carrying them like you carry a
rag doll, you know, like like with the foot and
the things flopping around, and that image. Those images have
(28:00):
stuck with me all these years, and you talk about
having nightmares and things like that. That's that's what that's
what did it?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Or did they see it?
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I'm sorry to say that again.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Did the A and A Were they bothered by it?
Or were they just nonchalant like you know Inala like
you know, just like.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I never I never saw the an A bothered by
by things like that, which is alsoturban.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
They become so numb to it, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So I mean that's something that there's there's there's fun
times that stick out. All the bars that we did
with with you guys. The the the fact that the
Ana would never eat our m or e s, but
they're happy. They were happy to take the cast that
we gave them and go buy a couple of goats
and and kill them right there and cook them up
because they you know, they carried that an entire truck
(28:54):
full of pots and pants, remember that, right, They were
employed with pots and.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Pants pressure cookers for rice.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, and they would cook that stuff up right there
in the middle of the night and then and have
you come to share it with them. And it was amazing,
you know. Our army couldn't live like that.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Yeah, yeah, especially during Ramadan and all that.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, just impressive.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Had some good ones down there, right three two Kandak,
especially after where I went. I mean, there was a
lot of those guys we missed, uh you know Rambo,
you know, and you know that the one first sergeant
I remember, he was Persian from Iran, really good guy.
There's a number of them that were really solid. They
were definitely a lot more combat troops than what I
(29:40):
was dealing with. And the Kandak we moved to.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I love the fact that I never needed a turp.
I never needed to Turp because because you know, during
the during the Russian times, some of these officers went
to live when lived in Pakistan and came back to
fight the talent man. When they were in Pakistan, they
learned all the customs and cultures that packed stand languages
and whatnot. So my turp was he's a nice guy,
(30:03):
but he's pretty much useless to me, because I would
just go up right up to the commander and grab
him by his hold and say, this is what we
need to do, you know, And it was great. It
was great.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Did you did they seem standoffish or afraid of you
because you knew their language, or did you find that
they respected you and appreciated that you could talk with them?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
If I may be so bold as to say, I
think they loved me. They enjoyed having They loved it
when I was around. They preferred having me around versus
some guy speaking English that wasn't really making it clear
through a through a third party, through a turph. They
love Bradley because you know you remember Bradley, right. So
(30:46):
this is this is another funny thing, is that only
in our team did we have a black guy and
a Pakistani guy, and they put both of us in
the same Hume beat for seven months. There was a
lot of chicken curry and fried chicken jokes going on
still to this day. In fact, I want to see him.
I'm going to see Bradley this weekend.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Oh good god, AMers froze up again to say, now, yeah,
that's that's that's right. I mean, he's he was a character.
He's a character himself. And and I forgot you guys
were teammate. Uh, you guys were teamed up together. You
guys were the officer n c O pair, right, you're
on your team. But yeah, no, that's that's interesting because
you know, I just didn't know if they ever did, like,
you know, looked at you as being you know, your
(31:25):
Pakistan background, because obviously there was such a bias from
from some not all in Afghanistan, but that was ever
an issue.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
No, And you know when we when we went through
Shelby stand and of course you remember we learned four
months of nothing. But oh I have tactics in Shelby,
remember that's right. Yeah, there's good veterans teaching us how
to fight in Afghanistan. Yeah, you have nothing on them.
That's they were doing their job. But that's not what
we've been So we kept getting told, Hey, yeah, the
(31:54):
the locals are going to teach you like this, and
the locals are going to teach you like this. Locals
don't like someone how do you know, we're not your
experiences Iraq? Ours is Afghanistan. And so some of the
some of the few ones that had served in Afghanistan,
that'll be like, yeah, the hate pakistanis the hate Pakistani.
So okay, we'll deal with they want to get there,
(32:15):
and so that was sort of in the back of
my mind, but it turned out.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
To be nothing. Well even and they could have been
from rot Or Comb. They wouldn't have known what it's
like down in the in the pack in the Pack
border region.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
They would have been like being, Hey, I'm from Seattle.
I don't know what it's like in Alabama. Right, It's
like you, I don't know how they they do things,
you know. But uh yeah, So so looking at that
and looking at your other deployment back there and other things,
uh and just the deploy you got this unique perspective
of working, you know, as a foreign area officer. Is
(32:48):
there any compare control, Is there any like you know,
compares that between between a combat deployment some of those
just in dealing with people or how to negotiate or
any of that kind of stuff. Because you know, even
as even though we were a combat zone, is etts
you know which I think the National Guard is a
great role for that or feel for that need is
it because a lot of etts come from a civilian world.
(33:11):
They have negotiating, they have other skills outside of military
and they you know, some of them have very good
negotiating skills, which is really what it was all about. Yeah,
but ao stuff, How does those how those shake out?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Uh, those skills come in really handy. You know, you're
tested and come you're negotiating skills tested and tested in
the crystal bowl of combat. Uh, they come in really handy.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
All those key leader engagements that we we we want
on all those you know, being you know, having being
focused on what you need to talk about, what you
need to ask, what you need to say, because you
know your your time is very limited. If you stay
in a place too long, you can be targeted. That
kind of stuff. And and those aren't just things that
(34:01):
were making up. It actually happened to our guys. If
they have to hung out at a bob somewhere. I
have to hung out in the village too long. Look
look at one on you know, if you look at
if you hung out at a village so long, you
became a target and sort of being an asset. And
so the whole talking to people, communicating, negotiating things. I
thought you had to do it in the timely manner.
You had to go in with a plan. You had
(34:22):
to go in knowing what you were going to say
and knowing what you what you were trying to get
out of out of the locals, and and then you
had to get out.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
But you wanted to respect their their traditions and culture
of Chai time and all. You know, there's a lot
of yep, that was a big thing. Right by the way,
your video is frozen in, but you know that was
a big thing of you know, we come in as
Americans were very much bottom line up front, you know,
boom boom boom, bulletized kind of stuff. And that was
kind of a cultural shift for a lot of folks
over there. You're going over there because you know, you
(34:54):
may have something important to talk to about, but they
first want to sit down and you know, have some
warm up here, so you have to do balance that
with the same time, going I don't want to be
stuck here too long.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah. Yeah, So a lot of a lot of lessons
learned that that that were you.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Think benefited you as a foreign Area officer that you
picked up in Afghanistan.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, yeah, and know, yeah, I mean just dealing when
you're a foreign Area officer, you're almost always surrounded by
freaking high ranking officers, both ours and foreign countries, and
so just just learning how to talk to people all
sorts of different backgrounds and cultures and things like that.
That was definitely plus.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Anything from your FAO duties that that really stand out.
Any you obviously had a lot more severe interaction there
and stuff like that. Any experiences funny that just are
lightning or just that opened your eyes and just re
educated you in something that just like you never thought
of something that way, or did not know about something.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
There's way twenty mentioned. I just just the opportunity to
travel to all these different places that I never never
would have gotten a chance to travel to and learn
about the culture and meet people and see things and
do things. It just bothered us my mind, especially for
somebody who came from you know, po dunk freaking Pakistan.
(36:16):
You know this, this is this is the thing that
that I tell people and I tell my kids. It's like, dude,
no other country, no other country could could this happen? Yeah.
I remember standing in line as a as a nine
or ten year old outside of the US embss US
consulate in Lahore in freaking hot as hell weather, waiting
(36:39):
in line to get our visa. Uh and then twenty
twenty five, thirty years later, sitting next to the US
ambassador helping or watching US diplomacy at work. No other
country with that is that even possible. It's just just
(36:59):
grateful for the opportunities and the lessons learned, and and
and the things that the Army allowed me to do
and and to to to you know, just and and
allow my family to do at the same time, and
(37:20):
in the life that we're living now. It's just it's
all started with me not having enough money to pay
for college. It's it's I guess the one thing, one
thing that I'm really grateful for is that, you know,
I spent the first ten years of my life as
as a combat arms guy, basically essentially learning how to
(37:41):
kill people. And destroy things. But the rest of the time,
one of the most significant things and as a fail
is that one of in Nepal, one of our goals
was to help Nepaal get ready for for a disaster.
You know, there's a reason why Nepaul's got all these
high mountains because there's all the plate shifting and things
(38:01):
like that happening. It's on the balls, you know, do
for an earthquake. And that was one of our focuses
as a US government, is to help them get ready
for that eventuality. So we've provided them equipment, We've provided
them training, we provided them all sorts of resources to
be able to handle those and then just so happens
(38:22):
about four about six or seven months after I left Nepal,
it was hit with a huge earthquake. And I am
grateful that some of the things that I was able
to do and some of the things that people before
me were able to do help save lives, and that
I be forever grateful for that. Ye your videos, anybody
(38:43):
was it was a combat officer. Never I don't even
remember pulling a triggery and anger. They needn't understand or
at anybody, But I I got to save lives.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, that's awesome. Your video FROs again man things just
giving you hit. No, it's that's uh. That contribution is
is great. I mean, obviously we all made contributions. We
did in the combat zone. But at the end of
the day, you win your little battles and that kind
of stuff. But as we saw unfortunately by the fall
of Cobble and everything else, it doesn't mean you affect
(39:16):
the change of the greater of the big picture. How
has that been? Just real quick as we get ready
to wrap, I was looking back. I mean obviously Afghan
Vet myself and you know, surrounded by a ton of them,
continue to work with a lot of them and stay
in contact. I mean that, you know, the fall of
Cobble has had a big effect on a lot of
(39:36):
people in a lot of different ways. And I'm sure
a lot of people come to you for counsel and
also you still stay in touch with people. I'm just
curious from your perspective, how has that impacted folks, How
how has that been taken?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
You know, I had a I had a meaning very
shortly as it was going on with with with my
one of my company command who also was on that
deployment with us, but he was down in the Candle
Heart region and we were literally in tears. We're eating
burgers and we were literally in tears talking about all
(40:11):
the wasted time, wasted lives, wasted energy. And that's just
from a purely human perspective, right, But if you look
at it from a geopolitical perspective, what the fuck? Why
why would we leave like that? Why would we give
up so much? Why would we just leave shit laying
around for somebody else and now for our kids to
(40:34):
to have to fight in the next wor war? Right,
why would we do that? What? What kind of what
kind of leaders do we have that then, in the
greatest country in the world, how do we allow that
to have?
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Well, you know, it's in hindsight after that. I mean,
I was involved a little bit during that with helping
a couple of different groups getting people out. It was
a great honor to do it. My employers were great,
They just let me just go cart blind away from
work and I was just working stuff NonStop. But in hindsight,
as I looked back and stuff, I thought, Man, I
(41:08):
don't know if the right words ironic or what it is,
but that you know, in the GWAT years, all the
global war and terror. Right, what you saw and I
saw we all did, right that the American people went
above and beyond, even when I was a desert storm, right,
they went above and beyond to make sure that they
didn't do what they did the Vietnam vets. Right, they
(41:28):
thanked everybody, you know, they thanked us, and there was
all this stuff and accolade, and obviously you probably saw
it too. A lot of Vietnam vets came out, and
I think a lot of g WAT vets made sure
they reached out to them to thank them, because it
was almost this is just Troy's you know, opinion and impersonation.
It was almost like the country as a whole felt
guilty as they should for how they treated the Vietnam vets.
(41:51):
So they made sure they went above and beyond for us.
But then I looked at it come full circle that wow,
you know, we in Afghanistan especially, it became then Afghanistan
kind of became similar to Korea and the fact that
it kind of became a forgotten war compared to Iraq. Right,
you know, when we were there, there were people didn't
even know we were there. I'm sure, I know people
(42:12):
in Might that I consider very knowledgeable education with people
that did not even realize we were still in Afghanistan
because all they saw was Iraq all the time. Afghanistan
kind of became that forgotten war in the mid two thousands.
But then it came full circle and we left just
as bad, if not worse than how we pulled out
of Vietnam. And it's like, like I said, I don't
(42:32):
know the right word that you would use to make
that comparison, but it was like America went above and
beyond for us because of how they treated the people
in Vietnam, Yet we came back and had our same
Saigone moment, except it was people falling off of C fives.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, it just seems like we don't learn our lessons. Well, yeah,
there's plenty of lessons to be learned. Why don't we
learn them? Why don't know our leaders learn them? So
it's just I mean, it's just the whole thing was
just disappointing. Is even though freaking private, I could tell
you the DUTs that was jacked.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Dope, Yeah, even without losing lives, Yeah, we lost anyone
who still would I mean, I thought for sure I remember,
and we were there and after it came back, you know,
doing podcasts and interviews and all stuff, and I would say,
we've got a presence there forever. I just I could
not fathom that we would ever give up Bogram, that
we would keep it, just like we're still in Korea,
just like we're still in Germany. I would tell people
(43:30):
that would you couldn't tell me otherwise, like, no, we
are there. We've got a foothold in Southwest Asia, uh forever,
because we can hold on Bogram and have a have
a point of you know, uh, a point to launch
from and maintain stability and all that stuff. Would never
have considered we'd ever give that up. Not We're still
in Germany, We're still in Korea, We're still in countries
all over the globe. It's like, you know, but yeah,
(43:54):
I was just curious that what you saw on her
and and not that I was your your reactions are
the same as everyone else's. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, let mean, look, at the end of the day,
I'm an American, right, an American soldier. I'm not I
make fun of the fact that I'm born in Pakistan
and and and well I have an honorary badness as
I'm an honorary or or a member of the is S.
I given to me by first artist Steward.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
But at the end I have that.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I literally have the badge. I just couldn't find it today.
I don't know that. It's probably one of the boxes
behind me. But yeah, but my son's following him. Actually,
I can't even say he's following my footstuff. He's already
surpassed me.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
He's great. I love watching his progress through your Facebook.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, in twelve years of being an infantry and I
couldn't make it the Ranger school and the dude's already
already there. So it's like, yeah, but yeah, it's my
my opinions and and and that and my family and whatnot,
similar to whatever probably every other veteran family had when
(45:08):
we saw that stuff on TV. I'm like, what are
we doing?
Speaker 3 (45:12):
The hell?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
And I was just glad I wasn't there because that
it's it's it's one thing to be there and and
none know what's going on. Then to be there and
be led by fucking incompetent people.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Yeah again, but no, I think of those guys a lot.
I know some that went over to help out and
do stuff like that. But they got I mean it
was obviously a small unit, some marines, some some army,
but what they saw not even just the ones that
were near the bombing. But I mean, we we've all
seen the pictures of the passing, the babies over the wire,
all that stuff. I've heard stories through connected people and
(45:50):
stuff that they are those folks are going through a
different level of hell of PTSD than someone do a
regular combat tour because it was focused. It was like
constant traded right where we had a year spread out,
a lot of boredom and excitement. They had, you know,
a few weeks of just mass bullshit, chaos concentrated down
(46:11):
into you know, a very tight space that they're going
through a lot.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
And the people we saved, you know, all those flights
full of Afghans, those people aren't aren't having an easy
life either. I know some of them they're they're they're hurting,
they can't some of them. Some of them don't have jobs.
They have kids, but no way to pay for those kids,
no way to raise them. No, you know they're.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
There, you know, parents, grandparents and stuff.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yeah, siblings, But they may have been an engineer, or
a doctor or whatever in Afghanistan. Here they can barely
make it as an uber driver, Right, that's what they're doing,
and they're they're gonna have a hard time, but their
kids are going to grow.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Up strong and and lots hopefully than they would have
for sure. I hope.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
I think we were strong Americans and not strong something else.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Yeah. Well, hey, David Man, I appreciate you coming on
giving to some of your time tonight. We talked about
a lot and it was awesome because I say, you
bring a perspective that you know a very small group
can even relate to. Is there anything we didn't cover
or talk about that you'd like to have our listeners
and viewers know about, or any anything else, any topics
(47:25):
or anything you want to just promote.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
No, I think we generally covered everything top there's an
honor serving with you. As an honor is talk to
you again. Like I said, looked up to you for
nineteen years now. We haven't met since since in nineteen years.
We'll probably we probably should fix that.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Sometimes we tried to a couple of times, haven't. We're
able to link up at the inauguration and other places,
and you've been bouncing around, but we will. I get
down your neck of woods pretty often, so I'm sure
i'm gonna find my way down there again.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
All right, man, and we'll be good.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
All right.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Say how to the team when you talk to them,
I still remember them.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Yeah, sure will. Yeah, I'm gonna make sure they know
about this this episode. So hey, good to see your brother.
Stay safe and we'll be staying in touch.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Take care, h
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