October 8, 2025 • 65 mins
Rusty Bradley has decades of experience and is a widely recognized and sought after subject matter expert in domestic and international military affairs, national security, and homeland defense. His extensive experience with interagency, joint, and combined operations gives him a full spectrum perspective, and his hands on approach at the tactical to strategic levels provides a top-down, bottom-up approach to complex problem solving not found in typical analysis and analytics. His career of 32 years includes 21 years of military service in US Army Special Operations as well as a global Senior Advisor and consultant in capacity development and implementation of strategic capabilities within Irregular and Unconventional Warfare, Counter-Insurgency and Human Terrain operations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hmm, I've got no reason the teeth of a killing
(00:23):
a scene with a need to please.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You, with the light ghostring. Let's believe them in the
zone to me from a end of a.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Yanko a yane to see good. Agree, I'm a say.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
When you came to me because I'm weird, I'm a
one of a kind, and I'll bring death to the
glacier about a week.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Another river of blood running under my.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Feet, pursing a fire did a long ago stand next
to me, You'll never stand alone. I'm last to me,
but the first to go.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Lord, make me death before you make me feel.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
On the fear of the devil inside of the enemy
faces in my sight, being with a hand or shoe,
with a mic kill with a heart like arctive.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Guys, I am a worri.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
To the ground of an enemy.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
I read you, leea Charlie, loud and clear. All right, everyone,
welcome back. We are on part two. This is the
first time we've ever done a two partly Ma Charlie episode.
Most people we can get by in thirty minutes or
an hour. But Rusty's done a few things, so uh
(01:45):
we uh done a lot. In fact, Russy I was
hearing from For those that didn't didn't know, didn't see
part one, let me put it up here real quick.
I'm gonna send you. I'm gonna post here at the
bottom part one of our interviews Rusty from last week.
So it was last two Tuesday. Uh what day was that? Oh? No,
September thirtieth, last the last day September. So I heard
(02:06):
some people from the people this week Rusty that were like,
was there any school he didn't go to? So there's
bets on did you make it to Armor's course or
you know, IG school or eos, like you made everything?
Is there any you didn't get to?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
A Finder?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
And Halo Halo Airsalt do Air Salt?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Oh? Yeah, that was the first one I ever went to.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Was it? Okay?
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:35):
He went jump Master, you go jump Masters, just didn't
get to Halo and and uh Pathfighter huh yeah two
very covered.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Was actually uh so you know, usually if they if
group thinks they're going to use you for a specialty team.
And I think we discussed that. I squirreled my into
uh maybe dive in salvage school and then the instructors
(03:09):
let us do a week of dragger training and so
and like all the other stuff on clearing whole searches
on ships and nuclear submarines and planting devices. So I
got I got my combat diver certification from the complexity
(03:34):
of the course and all the additional stuff that they
gave us that wasn't required afterwards.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Oh so you just kind of got it through. Just
you took head was able to do extra stuff enough
to qualify for the for the combat diver. Now, when
you wore your diving badge on uniform, did you wear
the like a Navy badge or was it the Army
Diving badge?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
I was an Army Dive bats or the Army Army
Combat Diver Batch. Because everything that we did was the
exact same requirements and that that was what made it
really interesting was getting the opportunity to go through additional
training that wasn't part of the course. So I got
(04:17):
my dragger training from instructors and actual members of Seal
Team one. Because the Navy Dive school that I went
to was on Ford Island and that's right across from
where the one of the headquarters is and of course
it's Special Operations Command Pacific's located there. So they were like, hey,
(04:39):
you're interested learning how to breathe without bubbles, and I'm like, well, yeah,
of course.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
Yeah. It's funny. You know last week we talked in
part one and you talked about I don't remember I'm paraphrasing,
but you know, being there with the attack on Pearl
Harbor happening and seeing like buildings that still had the
bullet holes and the scars and and them, it made
me think of Ford Island the last time. Been Hawaii
many times, but the last time we were there. There's
(05:06):
the infamous Tower. I think it was a tower that
was strafed on Ford Island, like Red and White Tower
or something like that. And there's a building right next
to it. I'm sure like it was the barracks or
command post there and it's not occupied anymore. But you know,
my kids and I we'd watched I probably Pearl Harbor
watched something right before we went out there the last time.
(05:27):
And we walked up and you can see same thing.
See those bootholes where those Japanese zeros strafed that tower
and where the building was strafed, and it just it's
just crazy to see like that piece of history still
you know, still preserved and just still like they didn't
patch it up, They didn't you know, fix it up
(05:47):
and stuff. They left those marks there, and that is
it made me think of that when you were talking
about that last week.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
So the actual work, I don't know if it's still there.
The maybe Davin's Average school that we went to was
where the PBR boat planes were at on December seventh,
and we went out every day as a reminder of
(06:15):
how you have to be prepared exact same thing. There
are I guess twenty millimeters Japanese zero impact marks. There's
probably sixty or eighty of them, like in this linear
road leading up to the dive school, and that was
(06:37):
where the boat planes were all parked at on December seventh.
So everywhere you went was some kind of reminder of
the seriousness and the severity of what you were supposed
to be training to be prepared for.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Yeah, yes, something that you know, until two thousand and one,
we you know, we we had pretty much never seen
again an attack on our homeland and uh you know
until as those days happened, and but it was something
that you know, definitely left a mark on us. Right,
we like to take the fight to everyone else. Uh
we we don't want to come into our citizens. But
(07:16):
so we talked a lot last time. We spent a
little just a touch over an hour last week talking
about pretty much leading up to that. You came from
being enlisted, went to Special Forces and Q course and
all the schools and and everything like that. And the
reason why we want to break into two parts for
those that are tuning in and watching, was because you
just didn't want it to be a two or three
hour show. We wanted to try to you know, and
(07:37):
there's so much content. So Russia, I'm excited to jump
right into it and talking and you have I remember
a total of uh total tours, but seven tours in Afghanistan,
was that correct? Or eight?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Well, eight tours in Afghanistan alone, and then that's not
counting all the other countries that we went into and
operated in for short periods of time. It's every organization
does it differently. We used to didn't really consider a
tour anything for deployment excuse me, well, a tour, combat
(08:12):
tour anything less than ninety days. So if you were
there for eighty seven days, you know, we didn't consider
it a combat tour. But then we started learning a
lot of the other jaysawkunits. They only deployed for ninety
days or ninety two days, so I would say probably
about seventeen total.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Wow, And those were paid in Afghanistan. Were those countries
that were in were they combat operations or were those
countries where you were doing fit operations working with indigenous
forces and training them. Were they an actual gunsling.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
And other were combat operations?
Speaker 5 (08:50):
So about seventeen combat tours of varying lengths. But yes,
you know, like you said, special operations typical they don't
you know, regular forces may do a year, but you know,
whether it be special forces, some of the operations they
range from you know, three months to seven months something
to that degree typically. Right. So now when you we're
gonna get back to those, I want I want to
kind of set the stage for Afghanistan. Uh. One thing
(09:13):
unique about special forces and and you know, different than
the conventional forces is you know guys and marines and
army go in and out all the time. They you know,
went for a year, came back for a year, year
and a half, went back for a year, could end
up anywhere, but you kept going to the same area
of operations, right you You stayed focused and and that's
something kind of s F does, right. They they zero
(09:34):
in on even if they leave for a while, they
come back to relationships hopefully that they already had. And
knowing the terrain was was every one of your eight
tours all in in the Kandahar area?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Yes, or every single one of them were in Canada.
Heart And it's funny you said that because one so
I was one of the first. I was the first
cohort of thirteen guys twelve or thirteen guys that were
sent to learn Poshtu And it was seven and a
(10:11):
half months of the craziest language training because you're learning
a tribal language. Back then, we had no work books,
no dictionaries, no. We ended up having three different teachers.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
How's an ask Afghans that came here were the actual
college professors that taught that, And.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
So they were actual Afghans that had been brought in
one woman and two men. And we figured out about
four months into the course because we would lose one
every couple of months because they would get a much
higher paying job because of their language skills and their
teaching skills. So we would get one for two three months,
(11:05):
and then they would leave, and then somebody else would
come in, and then we figured out, well, one of
them was from the north of Nkable, so they pronounced
their vowels and words differently, even though it's all still
subject object verb. Then you know, we got somebody who
was from southwest Pakistan who was teaching their dialects and words.
(11:30):
Pronunciation is completely different. And then we got another one
I think that was from from the Kandahar area, and
again same thing. So Candahar. If you if you're seeing
the name Candahar, it still means fortified city in Poshtu Pushtuh,
(11:51):
but they say Candahar can Dadar, can Dashar, and it's
how and it's you just figure out really quick that
it's so tribal and so dialectic that man, my head
was spinning my first deployment as a Green Beret, because
you would travel twenty kilometers in any cardinal direction and
(12:15):
try to have her conversation and they would be.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Like, ha ha, you sound funny.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
You were saying, they could figure it out, especially with
my horrible Appalachian dialect.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
But you know, it would be like trying to learn the.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
League the captain teacher, because I sounded like a teacher.
I would speak to singa yeah you how are and
they were like, you sound like a teacher. And then
when you go into the city they used slain sing
it so.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Yeah yeah or psycho psycho. They would say that right,
you have to hear that a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
And I said all that just because when we graduated
the course and it was extremely difficult and there was
no reading and writing even though most of the alphabet
was in Arabic. We did speaking listening and that was it.
That was our DLPT test. And the commanding General for
(13:22):
all of Wick came in and told yes. Special Warfare
came in and told us and said, you guys will
never no matter how long this war lasts, as long
as you're in the army in special Forces, you will
never go anywhere else. That is now your regional expertise,
(13:44):
and you will go back there and keep going back there.
And your job is to immerse yourself in the politics,
the culture of the language, the religion, the socioeconomic aspect.
If there's law, sharia law like everything, you've got to
(14:08):
get to note everybody. You've got to be able to
be a sheriff, a politician, trash man, a shopkeeper like
you got to figure it all out because that's the
only place you're going. And that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
So was this a DLI course or was it just
run by Swick?
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Test was done by Dli, and even the instructors that
were there, they had to give us two different tests
when they found out that how much of our responses
and speaking and listening. Nobody passed the test the first
time because the instructor was somebody who was from or
(14:53):
the excuse me, the h the examiner was somebody who
was from western Afghanistan in Herat, and a lot of
their words are Farsi and a lot of the Afghan
words are Darri in order to do Urbu and Pashtu,
(15:18):
so you'll get like you'll hear maybe three words in
a sentence and then how it's pronounced and try to
put it together, and it takes you a second. But
once you would get into the village and you start.
The thing that I figured out really quickly was when
you're being respectful. They because of Pashtun wally, which is
(15:44):
the tribal laws and customs that govern the Pashtun people,
and how they believe that Allah is going to judge
them or reward them or punish them when they get
the paradise. Well, you you learned neta watte in a
safe passage, badal revenge. When they see that you're trying
(16:11):
to learn these things and apply them in their language,
they're much they became much more susceptible to you know. No, no, no, no, no,
that's not how you say this.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Yeah, they saw you're making effort, and they they trust.
So did you need a terp when you were over
there since you got totally immersed, did you still count
an interpreter at all?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Or did absolutely?
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Okay, So it was they were rapid fire, and you
were still talking like a teacher, but you could pick
up what was being said or so a.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Lot of what I The reason that I used interpreters
number one, because our interpreters were Afghans, so they they
I wasn't spending half my time trying to figure out
what was being said. I needed somebody who could convert.
The other thing that I figured out after the first
(17:04):
couple of combat operations, where either you're dealing with the
Taliban er you're dealing with locals, I didn't want them
to know that I spoke.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
I was going to ask about that. Did you ever
stay quiet and see what they said and you just
sat back most of the time.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Yeah, because that's exactly what I was doing. I'm listening
to what's being said around me because they're like, oh,
you're from a half a world away and you're a
big country Norwegian looking, you know, bearded thing with all
this crazy equipment on or no equipment. I would go
(17:42):
into a lot of the meetings with tribal leaders and stuff,
just either a civilian clothes, Afghan garb and I want
to hear what they're saying, because then the interpreters they
don't always hear every conversation that's going on. And there
(18:03):
was a couple of times that that worked out extraordinarily
well where they didn't think that anybody could possibly speak
posture or understand it. And a lot of times you
can balance it between. One of the schools that they
sent us to is a called the Read Institute, where
you would learn to read body languages. You had to
(18:24):
be able to do that, not only for social settings
and high stake, high stakes negotiations is another course that
they send us to. But you're you're dealing with people
that what they say and the gestures they use and
how they use them, you know, like we we would.
(18:45):
You know, if we tell somebody to come like this,
that just means come here. But if they do this,
that's a derogatory. If they want you to come, they'll
turn a hand down sort of thing. You never know
when that one little nugget of something is either going
to make your mission successful or save your life or
(19:07):
save some you know, the life of somebody that you're
working with.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
Yeah. Yeah, And as sure as where you had a
room full of you know, elders around, like you said,
you had one interpreter, and you may be actively talking
through the interpreter to one person, but then these other
guys over here are chatting. I'm assuming you were kind
of really trying to tune into them. And and because
you know, the interpreter is gonna tell you what he's saying, right,
but you're you're tuning in to see you. Are they
(19:31):
Are they being sarcastic? Are they talking about you? Are
they like, yeah, that guy's saying whatever, We're going to
do what we want. I mean, did your interpreters know
that you spoke that you understood.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
A little bit because I practiced with them a lot.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
Okay, A lot of.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Our dialogue when we were in the truck or back
at the firebase was about them constantly teaching, coaching, mentoring
me on this you know, this society and this civilization
(20:11):
that's at the edge of the known world and you
have to set aside.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
There's a book they made us read in the Q
course called The Ugly American and it was basically a
that you probably heard of it or have read it,
but you know, you didn't want to be that guy.
And a lot of the euphemisms and mannerisms and the
(20:40):
cursing and that sort of stuff does not You're not
going to get anywhere. You know, you can be a
big barrel chested freedom fighter and be completely respectful, and
respect costs you nothing to give, but it can cost
you everything on a battlefield or when you're trying to
(21:03):
convince people, you know, like the guy that I taught
to write his name, and then all of a sudden
he just miraculously has one hundred fighters that he's willing
to clear roads from, you know, from IDs, or put
scouts out to give us direction if they think they've
seen you know, Al Qaeda or Connie Movement or Taliban movement.
(21:30):
You know, those guys become invaluable because you're just being respectful.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, No, just I want to kind of give
our listeners to viewers a little perspective. When you were
talking about the three different instructors from three different parts
of Afghanistan, you know, obviously being people that's never been there,
just think you know, everyone speaks afghan speaks, probably, but
I mean would to put in perspective in the US,
I would think it'd probably equate to something like having
three instructors, one from Boston, one from Birmingham, Alabama, and
(21:54):
one from Boulder, Colorado. That's pretty much what I imagine your
instructors were like in trying to each poshow with no workbooks,
know anything, just off speaking it and getting you to
memorize it.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
News guys, yun's and y'all all mean the same thing
for you all and proper English, but how they say
that and where they're from they sound different to people
who've never heard of.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
You know, right right, Yeah, and then you throw the
slang in there, local Afghan slang from those areas, and yeah,
just odds on top. So you got over there eight tours?
How long were your tours typically.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Never less. The shortest tour I did was I think
one hundred and twenty days. The longest tour I did
was a.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
Year, okay, full year. Uh? And did you did you
fall in and work with the same local leaders and
and all that kind of stuff where you were you
were you seeing the same people or did you come
back and some got killed or gone or I mean,
did you have that rapport after tour after tour with
the same people in an underground yes?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Yes, And so basically both of those answers you just gave.
There were usually about six or eight predominant political and
military leaders that you made friends with. You know, these
people are still human beings, and once you earned their trust,
(23:38):
you know, we stayed in touch with them when we
got back to the States. We had emails where we
would converse with them about life, just to stay in
touch with each other. But there were constantly because of
the ID suicide bombings, assassinations, there was constantly a turnover in.
(24:02):
You know, the governors always changed because that's politics. The
mayor usually stayed the same, Uh. The district police chiefs
and the district governors typically would move around or you know,
because they didn't want to stay at tart for very
long to be in the hot seat. And then a
(24:23):
lot of the contentious areas like district governors or provincial
governors in places like Helman, Paktika, Pactiya uh Jala, like
a lot of those guys stayed because they had enormous
power and wealth and they typically had the ability to
(24:45):
dodge getting killed or I mean, there are subsistence level
people and a lot of people don't understand, you know,
why why don't they pick a side? Well, a lot
a lot of these extremely poor countries nobody. Very few
people are nationalistic like we would consider nationalistic or patriotic,
(25:09):
because their concept of country doesn't exist. They are if
you look at a man's name, they have their their name,
their father's name, their family name, tribal name, and or
(25:30):
village name. That's why they all have like four or
five names. But they're trying to survive, and the way
that they survive is they ride the fence. You know,
they don't think about a retirement plan or a four
over one K. They think about feeding their family this
week or surviving this week, this month, and that's about
(25:50):
as far as they look. So trying to take all
of that in. I think is very difficult for guys.
Like I told you in the first segment, when I
started studying sociology, all of this stuff came to fruition
that I had studied in college that I thought, oh, yeah,
(26:13):
you know, how many times did you sit in your algebra,
geometry or triggered and almitory class and go, I'll never use
this when I'm an adult.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yep, yeah, I said that a lot about algebra. I
would never deal with positive or negative numbers. And then
the Army made me more, made me eleven, Charlie, and
I was in FDC pretty quick, and I was I
was a master of positive negatives. But I never thought
i'd see that graduating high school in Arkansas, let me
tell you. But that's not what I expected. But so, yeah,
(26:47):
we did talk about so when you go back, when
you went back over the you stayed contact. Did you
flip flop with the same teams? So when you weren't there,
was it always the same team, the same team commander,
all that that were in there. So were you flip
flopping just with one other team or was it like
three teams that rotated through the year in the same area.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
That's a good question. I think there was about four
or five years where a lot of the same teams
really tried to go back to the same areas of operation,
because you know the areas that are dangerous, Like, it
doesn't take you very long to figure out your area
(27:27):
and the people that are in your area. And there
were a few occasions, you know, every group when we
were rotate out, another group would come in and they
would do their six months, and you're never there for
six months. You're there for three weeks prior in three
weeks after your six months, so you're always really there
seven and a half months. But I think when we
(27:50):
were inherently very successful was when the battalion commanders would
allow the teams to go back to their same firebases
and their same aolars because your learning curve is much shorter.
Speaker 5 (28:05):
Right right, Yeah, they can't pull they can't pull anything
over on you and say, oh, the last guy's allowed
us to do this, and we did this, and you're like, no,
I know exactly what you did. Now remind me. I'm
pretty sure Scott Man and you know each other. I
know we've talked past you guys. You guys changed in
the same territory. I think Scott was in the same area.
You were right, So Scott.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Was a few years I think here's two years, three years,
two years ahead of me. So true story. First of all,
let me carry you all this by saying, Scott Man
is an absolute genius at unconventional warfare, coin and fit.
(28:51):
What if we ever go to war with anybody and
that dude shows up, you better surrender, just freaking give
it up. I worked for Scott So when they started
the Village Stability Operations program. Scott was my first commander,
(29:12):
so two of us, a guy named Jim Ganton myself
got bn R by name requested from so Calm or
the second Deaf two because we knew the language. We'd
been there so many times, and we could go out
into these districts and live among the people, alone and unafraid,
(29:34):
and still accomplish the mission sets that we'd been given.
So I actually got to work for Scott on the
very first deployment and rotation that they were implementing VSO,
and he was the he was the South VSO director
(29:55):
out of Canahart. So even when I left the teams
and doing an ACTU team stuff, when I got put
into village stability operations. When they kicked that off, they
sent me over in. The first person that I worked
for and met was Colonel Scott Man.
Speaker 5 (30:14):
Yes, a hell of a man, patriot and and continued
giving back and continues today with all his work he does.
And yeah, I think we saw when when when Cabo
fell he was still can be very effective even from
around the other side of the world that he did
with Pineapple Express.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
But so I guess you've I don't know, a long
time ago, they used to have that like everybody there
was a game or a joke or something like everybody
was seven steps from Kevin Bacon, right, So literally I
had I was in the UAE working as the counter search.
(30:56):
The advisor got a text message, Hey, some guys that
put together this thing and was like, if you know
of anybody and their families that need to get out
that can move, we'll take instruction and do it now.
(31:18):
Send us their names and their contacts. And I sent
them like four of the only ones that I knew
and had contacted other than my interpreter and his family,
and I got them out in twenty seventeen. Yeah, I
was then come to find out Scott was the one
(31:39):
pulling all the strings making it happen.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Yeah, I spent a number of days there when I
should have been working on signal and just been talking
to him and talking to folks and a lot of
my own interpreters trying to help me get their families out,
and people I worked with that head interpreters that were
trying to it was. That was just a blur of
a time. And the stuff he did was him and
other groups were doing phenomenal him and save our allies
(32:03):
and all that was. You just don't realize how many people,
you know, how many connections you have, till something like
that happens. And then it's amazing when you start to
highlight your own network and realize what happens. But hey,
so let's talk about a little bit about So when
you think back to of course, multiple deployments, many years
of it, you probably have many a fall in us.
(32:23):
But you know, part of this whole whole show is
just you know, these stories of downrange that that people
just would never hear. You know, whether they're gun firefights
or this, it doesn't mad, but you know, just people, incidents,
things that left a mark on you, things that you
would never forget that that left a positive or negative
impression on you from those tours. Anything anything comes to mind.
(32:44):
It kind of just if you were to rank a
top couple of them that just really stick with you
and probably will do your last day and dying day.
I know there's a lot because you knew this question
was coming.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
You know, I'll be honest with that. I never this
is so there probably are some stories. I'm not sure
that like. Some of them are you know, stuff I
don't want to discuss. Those are the ones that are
the deepest and most personal to me. I really do
(33:29):
not like this time of the year because this is
what we call the fighting season, and when we lose guys,
it's typically you know, late August, September, October, and in November,
and my calendar is just inundated. I lost twenty three
(33:49):
people that I would have given my life for that
I always thought were better men than me. And I
mean there were things that we did. Hollywood couldn't in
their best screenwriting, could not make up some of the
(34:10):
things that were really life lessons. If you're not only
going to survive in a place like that, but work
in a place like that. We went to like one
of the very first tribal meetings we went to when
I got to the team in two thousand and five.
(34:33):
We went up to an area and also in swaly Coot,
and we knew it was full of bad guys. We
went on the backside of this mountain and I kid you,
not indescribable. There had to be four hundred people in
(34:56):
black guard, black eyeliner with weapons. And we stumbled upon
a funeral that they were having for some Taliban guy
that got killed, and and we pulled up in our
gun trucks and or no, back then we didn't have
(35:19):
gun trucks. We had like highluxes and pickup trucks. I
just remember getting on the radio and I'm like, well,
this is either going to go extremely well or it's
going to go extremely bad. And of course I have
to give all the credit to my team because everywhere
(35:41):
we went we rehearsed and practiced in nauseam. So when
you do something, people always related to CQB or direct action.
You know, when you do something one hundred times in
a day, well maybe not in a day, maybe in
two three days, but you do it over and over
and over, you start figuring out what step what somebody's
(36:04):
what foot they're gonna step off with, how they lean,
you know, whether they're quick on a one or slow
on a one. And I just like through the door open,
put on my ball cap and walked right out in
the middle of them and started digging my Dirk and
dirkham homage. Hot was like, Hey, I don't want to
(36:27):
kill nobody here, but somebody wants to sit down and
have tea. Tell me what's going on, See how I
can help you. Were you you want to get in
if you want to get in a fight? Was a
rock up? Were you?
Speaker 5 (36:45):
They were like, and were you in Afghan Guarb? Were
you in uniform?
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Or oh, we were in We were in.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
The uniform and kid full full battle rattle.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah, And we were just doing uh at the time
when were doing a series of operations called squeak, Clear,
hold and build, so we were sweeping the area for
enemy concentrations and activity. We would clear it with combat operations,
move in and secure it, try to hold it, reinforce governance, security,
(37:19):
governance and development, and then try to stabilize it to
give legitimacy to the central government, which they didn't understand
in their culture, so it sometimes it was an opportunity
to open a window, and that's what I would That's
(37:40):
what I would do. That was one of the ones.
The So ultimately what happened is after I waited out
there in the middle of all those people, the tribal
elders son came over and I greeted him all of
(38:01):
you know, respectful things, in front of everybody else. And
he walked over and he grabbed my hand. And for
most people who don't know, like in their culture, when
another man comes over and holds your hand, that's a
social symbolic gesture that this man's my friend.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
And what he was telling them all is that you
cannot touch him. I'm going to talk to him and
we're going to have a discussion, and he spoke for
his father. And you know a lot of them, dudes,
we would end up fighting or killing later.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
Just because they Yeah, that's just it. It's a very
differin than in Western culture. And I know when I
was a mean a lot of people had problem with that.
But you're right, that level of closeness, they would you know,
getting in personal if I remember, we used to say
that there's no concept of personal space in Afghanistan. You know,
(39:03):
they would be very close to you. You would you
you know, they would get in what in our society here,
we'd get very uncomfortable someone got that close. That's just
the way they were. And like say, grabbing your hand
and holding your hand walking through the fob or you know,
through the village or whatever. It meant a lot. It
almost was like a shield. It was. Yeah, it was
like a cone of protection. Yeah. And uh, you think
(39:26):
that had an You think that probably saved you or
probably put you in a good light with a lot
of those people not to even try to mess with
you while you were there, because it sounds like you
merched yourself right in the middle of them.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Oh yeah, I can't. I mean, I'm I told you before, man,
I'm a Semna student and I was a third string
quarterback that showed up on a Super Bowl team of
good guys, experienced guys, seniors or seniors, juniors or juniors,
(39:58):
very professional h They worked hard, they played hard, and
I knew that when I told them I'm going out there.
You know, my team sergeant ended up being one of
my best friends in the whole world. His names Willie loopers.
He got killed November fifteenth, actually in a train accident
(40:24):
at a charity event in Midland, Texas. Was a very
tragic accident, and the last thing he did was save
his wife's life. He threw her off of the the
truck that they were on in the direction of the train,
which threw her clear and then then he was killed.
(40:49):
But he was the kind of guy that, like we
knew our roles, like having a prior service captain or officer.
We would all always laugh and he would say, you
throw the big bullets, I throw.
Speaker 5 (41:03):
The small ones.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
You know what I mean. Like I call in a
close air support, I'm calling in indirect. I'm sending up
sit reps. If I'm fighting for my truck, something's probably
pretty bad. But he does the fireman newt he you know,
we always in our ttp and SOP. I was in
the first truck because I wanted to be able to
(41:26):
send the first situation report troops in contact whatever it was,
and I was. I had sworn that I would never
follow my troops in combat, and it worked out perfectly
because I was just the needle and those guys behind
(41:47):
me were the handful and the sick one. So all
I had to do was pennye me down or identify
them or give them a good excuse me, a good
sit rep, and they were doing their things. So by
the time I waited out there in the middle of
all those people to do my thing. When I came
(42:10):
back to the trucks, there was only two trucks there,
but they had dispersed all of those gun trucks and
those civilian trucks and the Afghan We didn't even have
the A and A back then. It was the Afghan
militia forces that we were fighting with, and they basically
had probably a five hundred meter long half moon of
(42:32):
guns and people and they knew, you know, the Afrighan.
I mean, those people knew exactly what that meant. If
I didn't come out of that group, it wasn't going to.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
Go well, right, and they got the hint. So let
me just curious to go back to that young man,
the guy's son who grabbed your hand. Was he someone
you stayed in contact with. Was he someone that became
an ally or did he unfortunately become an enemy later?
Speaker 4 (43:03):
No, Unfortunately we ultimately ended up having to another. One
of the more daring things that we did. We literally
disguised a couple of vehicles, drove right to his house
(43:24):
and arrested him because we knew he was running a
NAII decent and brought him back, put him in the
punk facility, interrogating him for a couple of days, and
then basically we ended up letting him go and just
told him, if we get the next inclination, you're dead.
(43:45):
Matter And I would say probably about a month later,
some highly confirming intelligence came in that he was back
doing what he did, and somebody put a j pill
target on him and killed him.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Yeah, he picked aside the obviously with what you did,
speaking the language and and and all that, I mean,
besides just the enemy combatants on the battlefield, you like
you said, you establish friendships and relationships with some of
the local leaders and obviously with your interpreters probably, but
any anything anyone that stands out that, uh, that you
(44:25):
know you stayed in contact with after well after you're
done doing tours. Anyone that just you know, you saw
the hope of humanity and that you say you you
you said, this is I mean, if they could all
be like this, this would be a much better place.
Someone that was in it for the right reason.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Yeah. The only one that I can honestly think of
that was still alive after probably the ten year mark,
after I've been deploying Afghanistan for ten years, was probably
my interpreter and we the other interpreters had been killed
or captured and tortured and mutilated. And I managed to
(45:07):
get my interpreter and his family out of Afghanistan. And
it took four and a half years of dealing with
the paperwork in a nonsense and the embassies and the politicians,
(45:27):
and but yeah, he's he's well, actually there's two two interpreters.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
But most of my they were.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Never they were like the definition of what we were
there fighting for.
Speaker 5 (45:45):
Yeah. Yeah, most of mine I've won in New York,
one out in Colorado, and I probably have three or
four living in the DC Baltimore area. A lot of
mine got out that that weren't killed, and uh, you know,
they they're doing everything from teaching classes to working in
schools to being uber drivers, So they're kind of across
(46:07):
the board. Now, we talked mostly about Afghanistan, but you know,
you have just as many of the other tours, you know,
up to the seventeen some of these same questions about
those other places, and you don't have to say what
places they are or whatever, but whatever you feel comfortable.
But anything that stands out for any of those that
you know, maybe they weren't as kinetic, or or maybe
anything that happened there or anything you saw that you
(46:27):
you know, you know, I always tell people in combat,
we see the worst of humanity and we see the
best of humanity. I've always said that, right, And there's
always you can't have good without bad or or vice
a versa. But anything from any of those that stands
out that just was a again left an impact on
you as somebody, an event, a person, anything like that
from any of your other combat tours.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
Man see, probably one of the things that very early on,
one of the things that we did, one of the
operations that we did was probably a true joint and
(47:15):
combined operation against a three groups of insurgents are around Canada.
So there was one one insurgent commander who had a
pretty large number of guys. And when I say pretty large,
(47:39):
I mean if you've gotten maybe seventy to one hundred
fighters dudes carrying guns that do what you tell them to,
that's a pretty large group, and we had two groups
of something probably smaller between forty and fifty. And one
of the things that I love history, and I'm always
trying reading about how, you know, the how do small
(48:07):
numbers defeat larger numbers. You start thinking about, you know,
Hannibal and the Romans or whatever, like what did they do,
how did they reinvent the wheel or just change their
game to come out victorious. And I had a couple
of guys we'll say their names are Gene and Jay,
(48:32):
and they were great Intaeil guys. And they came to
me one day and they're like, you know, we're gonna
have to really be careful about going and trying to
operate up in these areas because they're very fluid. These
guys are very fluid. They're well supplied out of Pakistan YadA, YadA, YadA,
and the ID threat hadn't really kicked off, so we
(48:54):
were getting ambushed or doing the ambushes quite a bit
when we could get good solid intelligence. But I was
what I wanted to do originally, is I wanted to
find a way. I mean I got ten SF guys
and maybe thirty Afghans, and the Afghans hadn't been through
basic training. They're getting what training we give them, which
(49:16):
is better than most at that time. But I'm like,
how do I mitigate this threat because we can't go
through any valley or up any road in Afghanistan. You know,
the key terrain is the people and the people that
get on. The key terrain in Afghanistan is just everything
(49:37):
is above you. So we came up with a bunch
of different options, and what we ended up doing was
some small kinetic operations. So what we found out was
when the pay guy was coming from Pakistan to pay
these three groups. So what we decided was we would
(50:07):
leave some information behind when we ambushed the people coming
across with the money and made it look like the
largest of the insurgent commanders was the one that stole it.
So two days later we get this you know, intel
(50:29):
report from people that are working for us providing information,
and it's like, hey, there's there's two hundred and something
Taliban up here fighting each other and the two smaller
insurgent commanders didn't like each other, but they disliked the
other guy more. So when my intel guys found out,
(50:55):
did their their profiles, their psite profiles on the three
of them. It's like, hey, we get these guys to
turn on each other, we can mitigate this entire force
and never fire a bullet. And that's ultimately what we
ended up doing, was we ended up ambushing the patrol.
The pay patrol that came across the border left some
information to make it look like the larger of the
(51:17):
insurgent commanders was the one that stole it, and then
the other two smaller guys attacked him. So the force
of one hundred and fifty plus or minus insurgents got
whittled down to about forty five or fifty amongst the
three groups. And that's to me, that was like what
(51:44):
you do as a green breat Like, how do you
mitigate the enemy without having to send over a bunch
of American troops and spending a whole bunch more money.
And I had such good commanders in my battalion and
my group that they're like all I had to do
was give them a five minute brief over in a
(52:07):
ridium phone, and I could do it when I was
on the way there, Like I wasn't calling to have
to ask for ten different levels of permission. I would
just call and submit a five w leave the wire
and hey, we're getting ready to hit a bomb maker
or we're getting ready to do this. I just want
you to know so when it spikes in the top,
(52:28):
you'll know it's us. Cut on the trackers, cut on
the radio, boom, and you can operate. But that I
feel like that was one of my biggest personal victories
as a tactical level commander was to take these guys
that had been I had been given the opportunity to
(52:51):
serve with, that were so smart and so dedicated that
we came up with this crazy plan and like, where
else are you gonna learn to do something like that?
Speaker 5 (53:04):
Right? I mean that's the epitome of you know, small
unit warfare. It's but when you got you got a
thirteen man team or whatever, you you got a element,
and you're going against a much larger, you know, numbering force,
you've got to use every combat multiplier you know, and
obviously and things like that. Right, we used closer support,
We used you know, calling up to the sky and
getting bomb runs. But this is using intel and just
(53:27):
outsmarting them and getting them turning and dog eat dog, right,
having feet off each other. And uh, like you said,
you didn't have to fire a bullet and you wiped
out about two thirds of them.
Speaker 4 (53:38):
Deserves fun.
Speaker 5 (53:40):
Yeah, that that's a lesson many could learn from after
the fact, right because it's not uh, I know, there's
a lot of analogies and probably old things going back
to a Genghis con and everything, but it's not always
about you know, hitting them with direct energy right up front.
Sometimes you know that that that brains the strongest muscle
we got, you use that, you don't You don't have
(54:01):
to work too hard. You know, a lot of us
in the army always work harder or not smarter. But
that's definitely a case of working smarter.
Speaker 4 (54:08):
If you think about the ten primary principles or sayings
from you know, the Art of War by Son Su.
I mean it was applied by you know, a Chinese
general against massive armies. But those principles like they are,
(54:29):
I mean, it doesn't have to be Classwitz to be
good principles of war. You know, attack the enemy where
he isn't right, yeah, you know, would never attack a
four to five city. You know. My favorite one in
all of the counter insertion classes I ever taught was
if you don't know yourself and you don't know your enemy,
(54:51):
you'll never want about it. If you know your enemy
but you don't know yourself, or you know yourself but
you don't know your enemy, you don't want to win
half your battle. But if you know yourself and you
know your enemy, you'll win all your boss.
Speaker 5 (55:04):
Yeah. Yeah, and that and that could be applied to
a lot of things in life, not just count Yeah.
I mean I was a hockey coach for many years,
and I used many principles and and and lessons out
of the military to to teach young boys how to
play hockey and and and be successful and and that
kind of stuff. Same same thing. But uh, and in life,
(55:25):
right in the corporate world, right, you compete and you
do this and that, and you know, you know your
competitors know you're you know, all that kind of stuff.
But uh, yeah, that's uh, that's something. And so we'll
wrap up here. We got a few minutes. Stuff When
you look back over those tours and and all that stuff,
and you've written a great book. I've had the link
up there, lines of Canada Heart Love It, have it
(55:47):
on the coffee table still upstairs.
Speaker 6 (55:48):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (55:48):
It's one of my favorites. And and uh, you did
a good old boy from Appalachia did a pretty good
job of writing a book there, I gotta tell you that.
But uh yeah, I know you're you're definitely mating class.
But when you look back on accomplishments and things, you're
proud of, not just that, but even your own men,
because you wrote a lot. I mean, your book was
all about phenomenal men that you served with and stuff
(56:12):
like that. Anything you can think of is just one
of your greatest I mean, you look back with just
fondness and just pride on anything that you know, the
menu you led, the menu you served with, and the
things that you guys did that just really stick to you.
Speaker 4 (56:30):
I don't know how much time do you have. You
might have to do another whole episode. So one of
my junior Bravos ended up going to Delta. My junior
Charlie engineer ended up becoming a warrant and he's now
(56:52):
one of the top five pilots in the one sixty.
He's rated on six different aircraft, three fixed wing and
three rotary wing platforms. My junior medic Delta when we
called Shaky Steve. He went to Harvard Medical School, married
(57:18):
and got like six kids. Now one of the top
and finest doctors and surgeons in the US Army, Like
if you want somebody operating on your child's eyes. That
like when I when I look at the men that
(57:39):
I served with, every single one of them, like being
a Green Beret was just a stepping stone for them.
It's just a piece of time, you know, it was.
When you're in the job, it's not what you do,
it's who you are, and then when you get out,
(58:01):
it's what you did, not who you are. And I
just I thank God every day that I was given
the opportunity to serve on and with guys that did
(58:22):
more than I could have ever hoped for them to do.
And I think that that and my biggest my biggest
takeaway from home was that my wife ended up being
everything that I ever prayed for. And the only reason
(58:45):
I think that I'm here, that I'm still married, and
that we've been as successful as we've been was because
I had I didn't realize at the time, and I
made a lot of mistakes, more mistakes than should be
ever forgiven for. But being an Army For anybody who's listening,
(59:11):
Army wives may not wear a uniform, but by God
they serve, and sometimes their service is harder than Irish
because I know where I'm at and I know what
I'm doing. But when I'm dating myself, but when the
beeper goes off or the cell phone goes off and
you give them a kiss and you go downstairs and
(59:31):
you grab your bag and you leave, sometimes you can't
tell them where you're going, what you're doing. And that's
to me, that's a real hero is there. They're going
to be there when you come back, you know, you
just so so my teammates and my family made every
(59:54):
sacrifice worth it. Yeah, I got to walk as a giant.
Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Yeah and you probably you stood as a giant over there.
But uh no, it's got to be rewarding. I mean
to see these guys on your team who you were
with them and you know, teaching them and mentoring them
and providing leadership young in their lives and careers. To
see them move on to do other things like this.
You know, like you said, it was a stepping stone,
(01:00:23):
but one that was instrumental in giving them a solid
foundation to go on and accomplish phenomenal things, you know,
and that kind of stuff. And it's awesome to be
to be able. It's just like when employees, right, so
you grow them, they get promoted, they get to take
a new responsibility, they get a leadership position, and you're like, wow,
at least I got to you know, hopefully something I
(01:00:43):
I you know, and you know, put on them, something
I trained them on or whatever contributed to that. And
me personally, I look at that as a success. I
look at that, that's awesome that they're now doing this.
And I know it's got to feel the same way
for you of like, yeah, you may not have taught
them all the medical stuff, but you know you definitely
were there instrumental and giving them those core skills to
(01:01:06):
build to be a success, right, Because that's what I
do a lot in my company, trying to hire veterans
and that kind of stuff. Because when I work with recruiters,
it's like this guy can know that technology or not,
but he brings so many or she brings so many
soft skills and other skills to the table that no
one here has. That's a civilian, you know, and they
operate and people know who former military folks are. They
(01:01:27):
can tell the difference.
Speaker 4 (01:01:29):
Just and well, I mean, there's just there's so much
communication and small units that first of all, when you
go like I couldn't wait to get up and go
to work every day because you never knew what it
was going to be like. And I knew when I
(01:01:51):
stepped in that team room it was on. Whether it
was shit talking or shooting or training or planning or
whatever it was, somebody in there is going to test
you to make you better, and they're not going to
settle for you know, like my medics, how many people
(01:02:13):
do you know trained? Like we would go to the
range to do night shoots and they would break out
a box of ivs and we would have to give
each other ivs under knots. That's something you had to
do in the range regiment a long time ago. I
don't know if they still do it, but like that
was something they plugged in on their own because they
(01:02:36):
knew it was important because all of our work's.
Speaker 5 (01:02:39):
Done at night, right. Yeah, no one asked them something.
Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
Like that, I mean, and I would see them do
that stuff, man, and I.
Speaker 5 (01:02:46):
Was like, Yeah, they took the initiative knowing it needed
to be done, even though no one told them to
or direct them to. They just knew what it took
to make the team that much better, that much better prepared.
Yeah absolutely, yeah, yeah, well hey Russy, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
Man.
Speaker 5 (01:03:03):
We did another hour. I appreciate you coming back on
back to back two weeks in a row. And uh
for a guy who told me beforehand when I first started,
I got nothing to talk about. There is I haven't
done anything. It's not much. I'm like, oh, man, I
know I've read the book. I know better than that,
but uh, I mean it just it is amazing. Thank
(01:03:23):
you so much for giving you your second I know
a lot of people are looking forward to it. I
got a lot of comments after last week. People were
sending me text with you, quotes that you said and
that kind of stuff. And uh, yeah, I'm glad we
were to make this happen again, and especially when you're
a busy cat right now as uh as you've been
moving and doing a whole bunch of other stuff. But
thank you, man, I appreciate it. It's good to see
(01:03:45):
you again, brother, and uh and and giving us your
time and your night.
Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
And much. Man, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
I love talking about my guys. Man.
Speaker 5 (01:03:56):
I'm very problem Yeah, absolutely, dude, I feel you and
I totally get it. When I get back down your way,
which I'm down there quite a bit, I will definitely
I'll hit you up. And if we find ourselves there
together at the same time, I'd love to swing by
and give you give you a I'll hold your hand,
(01:04:17):
that's for sure, all right, buddy. Well, hey you have
a good night. Thank you everyone for tuning in. Make
sure you tune in on Tuesdays for Leaving Charlie Thursday
nights for our regular show. Check out all of our
sponsors they've been scrolling at the bottom. Make sure you
check out Rusty's book Lines of Candaheart Prime. Big Day
deals are going on right now. Maybe you can get
a deal on it. If you can, it doesn't matter.
It's worth every penny to just really understand what our
(01:04:41):
special forces did in Afghanistan and what sacrifice and real
patriotism is all about. So with that, thank you, sir,
Thank you everyone for tuning in, and I'll give everyone
a good night.
Speaker 4 (01:04:52):
Thank caving me go.
Speaker 6 (01:05:00):
By farm by pay, by farming, by patient, by finding out, by.
Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
By finding bott.
Speaker 6 (01:05:23):
Fifty ft
Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Fift
Hmm, I've got no reason the teeth of a killing
(00:23):
a scene with a need to please.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You, with the light ghostring. Let's believe them in the
zone to me from a end of a.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Yanko a yane to see good. Agree, I'm a say.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
When you came to me because I'm weird, I'm a
one of a kind, and I'll bring death to the
glacier about a week.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Another river of blood running under my.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Feet, pursing a fire did a long ago stand next
to me, You'll never stand alone. I'm last to me,
but the first to go.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Lord, make me death before you make me feel.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
On the fear of the devil inside of the enemy
faces in my sight, being with a hand or shoe,
with a mic kill with a heart like arctive.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Guys, I am a worri.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
To the ground of an enemy.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
I read you, leea Charlie, loud and clear. All right, everyone,
welcome back. We are on part two. This is the
first time we've ever done a two partly Ma Charlie episode.
Most people we can get by in thirty minutes or
an hour. But Rusty's done a few things, so uh
(01:45):
we uh done a lot. In fact, Russy I was
hearing from For those that didn't didn't know, didn't see
part one, let me put it up here real quick.
I'm gonna send you. I'm gonna post here at the
bottom part one of our interviews Rusty from last week.
So it was last two Tuesday. Uh what day was that? Oh? No,
September thirtieth, last the last day September. So I heard
(02:06):
some people from the people this week Rusty that were like,
was there any school he didn't go to? So there's
bets on did you make it to Armor's course or
you know, IG school or eos, like you made everything?
Is there any you didn't get to?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
A Finder?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
And Halo Halo Airsalt do Air Salt?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Oh? Yeah, that was the first one I ever went to.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Was it? Okay?
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:35):
He went jump Master, you go jump Masters, just didn't
get to Halo and and uh Pathfighter huh yeah two
very covered.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Was actually uh so you know, usually if they if
group thinks they're going to use you for a specialty team.
And I think we discussed that. I squirreled my into
uh maybe dive in salvage school and then the instructors
(03:09):
let us do a week of dragger training and so
and like all the other stuff on clearing whole searches
on ships and nuclear submarines and planting devices. So I
got I got my combat diver certification from the complexity
(03:34):
of the course and all the additional stuff that they
gave us that wasn't required afterwards.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Oh so you just kind of got it through. Just
you took head was able to do extra stuff enough
to qualify for the for the combat diver. Now, when
you wore your diving badge on uniform, did you wear
the like a Navy badge or was it the Army
Diving badge?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
I was an Army Dive bats or the Army Army
Combat Diver Batch. Because everything that we did was the
exact same requirements and that that was what made it
really interesting was getting the opportunity to go through additional
training that wasn't part of the course. So I got
(04:17):
my dragger training from instructors and actual members of Seal
Team one. Because the Navy Dive school that I went
to was on Ford Island and that's right across from
where the one of the headquarters is and of course
it's Special Operations Command Pacific's located there. So they were like, hey,
(04:39):
you're interested learning how to breathe without bubbles, and I'm like, well, yeah,
of course.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
Yeah. It's funny. You know last week we talked in
part one and you talked about I don't remember I'm paraphrasing,
but you know, being there with the attack on Pearl
Harbor happening and seeing like buildings that still had the
bullet holes and the scars and and them, it made
me think of Ford Island the last time. Been Hawaii
many times, but the last time we were there. There's
(05:06):
the infamous Tower. I think it was a tower that
was strafed on Ford Island, like Red and White Tower
or something like that. And there's a building right next
to it. I'm sure like it was the barracks or
command post there and it's not occupied anymore. But you know,
my kids and I we'd watched I probably Pearl Harbor
watched something right before we went out there the last time.
(05:27):
And we walked up and you can see same thing.
See those bootholes where those Japanese zeros strafed that tower
and where the building was strafed, and it just it's
just crazy to see like that piece of history still
you know, still preserved and just still like they didn't
patch it up, They didn't you know, fix it up
(05:47):
and stuff. They left those marks there, and that is
it made me think of that when you were talking
about that last week.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
So the actual work, I don't know if it's still there.
The maybe Davin's Average school that we went to was
where the PBR boat planes were at on December seventh,
and we went out every day as a reminder of
(06:15):
how you have to be prepared exact same thing. There
are I guess twenty millimeters Japanese zero impact marks. There's
probably sixty or eighty of them, like in this linear
road leading up to the dive school, and that was
(06:37):
where the boat planes were all parked at on December seventh.
So everywhere you went was some kind of reminder of
the seriousness and the severity of what you were supposed
to be training to be prepared for.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Yeah, yes, something that you know, until two thousand and one,
we you know, we we had pretty much never seen
again an attack on our homeland and uh you know
until as those days happened, and but it was something
that you know, definitely left a mark on us. Right,
we like to take the fight to everyone else. Uh
we we don't want to come into our citizens. But
(07:16):
so we talked a lot last time. We spent a
little just a touch over an hour last week talking
about pretty much leading up to that. You came from
being enlisted, went to Special Forces and Q course and
all the schools and and everything like that. And the
reason why we want to break into two parts for
those that are tuning in and watching, was because you
just didn't want it to be a two or three
hour show. We wanted to try to you know, and
(07:37):
there's so much content. So Russia, I'm excited to jump
right into it and talking and you have I remember
a total of uh total tours, but seven tours in Afghanistan,
was that correct? Or eight?
Speaker 4 (07:48):
Well, eight tours in Afghanistan alone, and then that's not
counting all the other countries that we went into and
operated in for short periods of time. It's every organization
does it differently. We used to didn't really consider a
tour anything for deployment excuse me, well, a tour, combat
(08:12):
tour anything less than ninety days. So if you were
there for eighty seven days, you know, we didn't consider
it a combat tour. But then we started learning a
lot of the other jaysawkunits. They only deployed for ninety
days or ninety two days, so I would say probably
about seventeen total.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Wow, And those were paid in Afghanistan. Were those countries
that were in were they combat operations or were those
countries where you were doing fit operations working with indigenous
forces and training them. Were they an actual gunsling.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
And other were combat operations?
Speaker 5 (08:50):
So about seventeen combat tours of varying lengths. But yes,
you know, like you said, special operations typical they don't
you know, regular forces may do a year, but you know,
whether it be special forces, some of the operations they
range from you know, three months to seven months something
to that degree typically. Right. So now when you we're
gonna get back to those, I want I want to
kind of set the stage for Afghanistan. Uh. One thing
(09:13):
unique about special forces and and you know, different than
the conventional forces is you know guys and marines and
army go in and out all the time. They you know,
went for a year, came back for a year, year
and a half, went back for a year, could end
up anywhere, but you kept going to the same area
of operations, right you You stayed focused and and that's
something kind of s F does, right. They they zero
(09:34):
in on even if they leave for a while, they
come back to relationships hopefully that they already had. And
knowing the terrain was was every one of your eight
tours all in in the Kandahar area?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Yes, or every single one of them were in Canada.
Heart And it's funny you said that because one so
I was one of the first. I was the first
cohort of thirteen guys twelve or thirteen guys that were
sent to learn Poshtu And it was seven and a
(10:11):
half months of the craziest language training because you're learning
a tribal language. Back then, we had no work books,
no dictionaries, no. We ended up having three different teachers.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
How's an ask Afghans that came here were the actual
college professors that taught that, And.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
So they were actual Afghans that had been brought in
one woman and two men. And we figured out about
four months into the course because we would lose one
every couple of months because they would get a much
higher paying job because of their language skills and their
teaching skills. So we would get one for two three months,
(11:05):
and then they would leave, and then somebody else would
come in, and then we figured out, well, one of
them was from the north of Nkable, so they pronounced
their vowels and words differently, even though it's all still
subject object verb. Then you know, we got somebody who
was from southwest Pakistan who was teaching their dialects and words.
(11:30):
Pronunciation is completely different. And then we got another one
I think that was from from the Kandahar area, and
again same thing. So Candahar. If you if you're seeing
the name Candahar, it still means fortified city in Poshtu Pushtuh,
(11:51):
but they say Candahar can Dadar, can Dashar, and it's
how and it's you just figure out really quick that
it's so tribal and so dialectic that man, my head
was spinning my first deployment as a Green Beret, because
you would travel twenty kilometers in any cardinal direction and
(12:15):
try to have her conversation and they would be.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Like, ha ha, you sound funny.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
You were saying, they could figure it out, especially with
my horrible Appalachian dialect.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
But you know, it would be like trying to learn the.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
League the captain teacher, because I sounded like a teacher.
I would speak to singa yeah you how are and
they were like, you sound like a teacher. And then
when you go into the city they used slain sing
it so.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Yeah yeah or psycho psycho. They would say that right,
you have to hear that a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
And I said all that just because when we graduated
the course and it was extremely difficult and there was
no reading and writing even though most of the alphabet
was in Arabic. We did speaking listening and that was it.
That was our DLPT test. And the commanding General for
(13:22):
all of Wick came in and told yes. Special Warfare
came in and told us and said, you guys will
never no matter how long this war lasts, as long
as you're in the army in special Forces, you will
never go anywhere else. That is now your regional expertise,
(13:44):
and you will go back there and keep going back there.
And your job is to immerse yourself in the politics,
the culture of the language, the religion, the socioeconomic aspect.
If there's law, sharia law like everything, you've got to
(14:08):
get to note everybody. You've got to be able to
be a sheriff, a politician, trash man, a shopkeeper like
you got to figure it all out because that's the
only place you're going. And that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
So was this a DLI course or was it just
run by Swick?
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Test was done by Dli, and even the instructors that
were there, they had to give us two different tests
when they found out that how much of our responses
and speaking and listening. Nobody passed the test the first
time because the instructor was somebody who was from or
(14:53):
the excuse me, the h the examiner was somebody who
was from western Afghanistan in Herat, and a lot of
their words are Farsi and a lot of the Afghan
words are Darri in order to do Urbu and Pashtu,
(15:18):
so you'll get like you'll hear maybe three words in
a sentence and then how it's pronounced and try to
put it together, and it takes you a second. But
once you would get into the village and you start.
The thing that I figured out really quickly was when
you're being respectful. They because of Pashtun wally, which is
(15:44):
the tribal laws and customs that govern the Pashtun people,
and how they believe that Allah is going to judge
them or reward them or punish them when they get
the paradise. Well, you you learned neta watte in a
safe passage, badal revenge. When they see that you're trying
(16:11):
to learn these things and apply them in their language,
they're much they became much more susceptible to you know. No, no, no, no, no,
that's not how you say this.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Yeah, they saw you're making effort, and they they trust.
So did you need a terp when you were over
there since you got totally immersed, did you still count
an interpreter at all?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Or did absolutely?
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Okay, So it was they were rapid fire, and you
were still talking like a teacher, but you could pick
up what was being said or so a.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Lot of what I The reason that I used interpreters
number one, because our interpreters were Afghans, so they they
I wasn't spending half my time trying to figure out
what was being said. I needed somebody who could convert.
The other thing that I figured out after the first
(17:04):
couple of combat operations, where either you're dealing with the
Taliban er you're dealing with locals, I didn't want them
to know that I spoke.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
I was going to ask about that. Did you ever
stay quiet and see what they said and you just
sat back most of the time.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Yeah, because that's exactly what I was doing. I'm listening
to what's being said around me because they're like, oh,
you're from a half a world away and you're a
big country Norwegian looking, you know, bearded thing with all
this crazy equipment on or no equipment. I would go
(17:42):
into a lot of the meetings with tribal leaders and stuff,
just either a civilian clothes, Afghan garb and I want
to hear what they're saying, because then the interpreters they
don't always hear every conversation that's going on. And there
(18:03):
was a couple of times that that worked out extraordinarily
well where they didn't think that anybody could possibly speak
posture or understand it. And a lot of times you
can balance it between. One of the schools that they
sent us to is a called the Read Institute, where
you would learn to read body languages. You had to
(18:24):
be able to do that, not only for social settings
and high stake, high stakes negotiations is another course that
they send us to. But you're you're dealing with people
that what they say and the gestures they use and
how they use them, you know, like we we would.
(18:45):
You know, if we tell somebody to come like this,
that just means come here. But if they do this,
that's a derogatory. If they want you to come, they'll
turn a hand down sort of thing. You never know
when that one little nugget of something is either going
to make your mission successful or save your life or
(19:07):
save some you know, the life of somebody that you're
working with.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
Yeah. Yeah, And as sure as where you had a
room full of you know, elders around, like you said,
you had one interpreter, and you may be actively talking
through the interpreter to one person, but then these other
guys over here are chatting. I'm assuming you were kind
of really trying to tune into them. And and because
you know, the interpreter is gonna tell you what he's saying, right,
but you're you're tuning in to see you. Are they
(19:31):
Are they being sarcastic? Are they talking about you? Are
they like, yeah, that guy's saying whatever, We're going to
do what we want. I mean, did your interpreters know
that you spoke that you understood.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
A little bit because I practiced with them a lot.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
Okay, A lot of.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Our dialogue when we were in the truck or back
at the firebase was about them constantly teaching, coaching, mentoring
me on this you know, this society and this civilization
(20:11):
that's at the edge of the known world and you
have to set aside.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
There's a book they made us read in the Q
course called The Ugly American and it was basically a
that you probably heard of it or have read it,
but you know, you didn't want to be that guy.
And a lot of the euphemisms and mannerisms and the
(20:40):
cursing and that sort of stuff does not You're not
going to get anywhere. You know, you can be a
big barrel chested freedom fighter and be completely respectful, and
respect costs you nothing to give, but it can cost
you everything on a battlefield or when you're trying to
(21:03):
convince people, you know, like the guy that I taught
to write his name, and then all of a sudden
he just miraculously has one hundred fighters that he's willing
to clear roads from, you know, from IDs, or put
scouts out to give us direction if they think they've
seen you know, Al Qaeda or Connie Movement or Taliban movement.
(21:30):
You know, those guys become invaluable because you're just being respectful.
Speaker 5 (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, No, just I want to kind of give
our listeners to viewers a little perspective. When you were
talking about the three different instructors from three different parts
of Afghanistan, you know, obviously being people that's never been there,
just think you know, everyone speaks afghan speaks, probably, but
I mean would to put in perspective in the US,
I would think it'd probably equate to something like having
three instructors, one from Boston, one from Birmingham, Alabama, and
(21:54):
one from Boulder, Colorado. That's pretty much what I imagine your
instructors were like in trying to each poshow with no workbooks,
know anything, just off speaking it and getting you to
memorize it.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
News guys, yun's and y'all all mean the same thing
for you all and proper English, but how they say
that and where they're from they sound different to people
who've never heard of.
Speaker 5 (22:27):
You know, right right, Yeah, and then you throw the
slang in there, local Afghan slang from those areas, and yeah,
just odds on top. So you got over there eight tours?
How long were your tours typically.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Never less. The shortest tour I did was I think
one hundred and twenty days. The longest tour I did
was a.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
Year, okay, full year. Uh? And did you did you
fall in and work with the same local leaders and
and all that kind of stuff where you were you
were you seeing the same people or did you come
back and some got killed or gone or I mean,
did you have that rapport after tour after tour with
the same people in an underground yes?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
Yes, And so basically both of those answers you just gave.
There were usually about six or eight predominant political and
military leaders that you made friends with. You know, these
people are still human beings, and once you earned their trust,
(23:38):
you know, we stayed in touch with them when we
got back to the States. We had emails where we
would converse with them about life, just to stay in
touch with each other. But there were constantly because of
the ID suicide bombings, assassinations, there was constantly a turnover in.
(24:02):
You know, the governors always changed because that's politics. The
mayor usually stayed the same, Uh. The district police chiefs
and the district governors typically would move around or you know,
because they didn't want to stay at tart for very
long to be in the hot seat. And then a
(24:23):
lot of the contentious areas like district governors or provincial
governors in places like Helman, Paktika, Pactiya uh Jala, like
a lot of those guys stayed because they had enormous
power and wealth and they typically had the ability to
(24:45):
dodge getting killed or I mean, there are subsistence level
people and a lot of people don't understand, you know,
why why don't they pick a side? Well, a lot
a lot of these extremely poor countries nobody. Very few
people are nationalistic like we would consider nationalistic or patriotic,
(25:09):
because their concept of country doesn't exist. They are if
you look at a man's name, they have their their name,
their father's name, their family name, tribal name, and or
(25:30):
village name. That's why they all have like four or
five names. But they're trying to survive, and the way
that they survive is they ride the fence. You know,
they don't think about a retirement plan or a four
over one K. They think about feeding their family this
week or surviving this week, this month, and that's about
(25:50):
as far as they look. So trying to take all
of that in. I think is very difficult for guys.
Like I told you in the first segment, when I
started studying sociology, all of this stuff came to fruition
that I had studied in college that I thought, oh, yeah,
(26:13):
you know, how many times did you sit in your algebra,
geometry or triggered and almitory class and go, I'll never use
this when I'm an adult.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yep, yeah, I said that a lot about algebra. I
would never deal with positive or negative numbers. And then
the Army made me more, made me eleven, Charlie, and
I was in FDC pretty quick, and I was I
was a master of positive negatives. But I never thought
i'd see that graduating high school in Arkansas, let me
tell you. But that's not what I expected. But so, yeah,
(26:47):
we did talk about so when you go back, when
you went back over the you stayed contact. Did you
flip flop with the same teams? So when you weren't there,
was it always the same team, the same team commander,
all that that were in there. So were you flip
flopping just with one other team or was it like
three teams that rotated through the year in the same area.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
That's a good question. I think there was about four
or five years where a lot of the same teams
really tried to go back to the same areas of operation,
because you know the areas that are dangerous, Like, it
doesn't take you very long to figure out your area
(27:27):
and the people that are in your area. And there
were a few occasions, you know, every group when we
were rotate out, another group would come in and they
would do their six months, and you're never there for
six months. You're there for three weeks prior in three
weeks after your six months, so you're always really there
seven and a half months. But I think when we
(27:50):
were inherently very successful was when the battalion commanders would
allow the teams to go back to their same firebases
and their same aolars because your learning curve is much shorter.
Speaker 5 (28:05):
Right right, Yeah, they can't pull they can't pull anything
over on you and say, oh, the last guy's allowed
us to do this, and we did this, and you're like, no,
I know exactly what you did. Now remind me. I'm
pretty sure Scott Man and you know each other. I
know we've talked past you guys. You guys changed in
the same territory. I think Scott was in the same area.
You were right, So Scott.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Was a few years I think here's two years, three years,
two years ahead of me. So true story. First of all,
let me carry you all this by saying, Scott Man
is an absolute genius at unconventional warfare, coin and fit.
(28:51):
What if we ever go to war with anybody and
that dude shows up, you better surrender, just freaking give
it up. I worked for Scott So when they started
the Village Stability Operations program. Scott was my first commander,
(29:12):
so two of us, a guy named Jim Ganton myself
got bn R by name requested from so Calm or
the second Deaf two because we knew the language. We'd
been there so many times, and we could go out
into these districts and live among the people, alone and unafraid,
(29:34):
and still accomplish the mission sets that we'd been given.
So I actually got to work for Scott on the
very first deployment and rotation that they were implementing VSO,
and he was the he was the South VSO director
(29:55):
out of Canahart. So even when I left the teams
and doing an ACTU team stuff, when I got put
into village stability operations. When they kicked that off, they
sent me over in. The first person that I worked
for and met was Colonel Scott Man.
Speaker 5 (30:14):
Yes, a hell of a man, patriot and and continued
giving back and continues today with all his work he does.
And yeah, I think we saw when when when Cabo
fell he was still can be very effective even from
around the other side of the world that he did
with Pineapple Express.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
But so I guess you've I don't know, a long
time ago, they used to have that like everybody there
was a game or a joke or something like everybody
was seven steps from Kevin Bacon, right, So literally I
had I was in the UAE working as the counter search.
(30:56):
The advisor got a text message, Hey, some guys that
put together this thing and was like, if you know
of anybody and their families that need to get out
that can move, we'll take instruction and do it now.
(31:18):
Send us their names and their contacts. And I sent
them like four of the only ones that I knew
and had contacted other than my interpreter and his family,
and I got them out in twenty seventeen. Yeah, I
was then come to find out Scott was the one
(31:39):
pulling all the strings making it happen.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Yeah, I spent a number of days there when I
should have been working on signal and just been talking
to him and talking to folks and a lot of
my own interpreters trying to help me get their families out,
and people I worked with that head interpreters that were
trying to it was. That was just a blur of
a time. And the stuff he did was him and
other groups were doing phenomenal him and save our allies
(32:03):
and all that was. You just don't realize how many people,
you know, how many connections you have, till something like
that happens. And then it's amazing when you start to
highlight your own network and realize what happens. But hey,
so let's talk about a little bit about So when
you think back to of course, multiple deployments, many years
of it, you probably have many a fall in us.
(32:23):
But you know, part of this whole whole show is
just you know, these stories of downrange that that people
just would never hear. You know, whether they're gun firefights
or this, it doesn't mad, but you know, just people, incidents,
things that left a mark on you, things that you
would never forget that that left a positive or negative
impression on you from those tours. Anything anything comes to mind.
(32:44):
It kind of just if you were to rank a
top couple of them that just really stick with you
and probably will do your last day and dying day.
I know there's a lot because you knew this question
was coming.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
You know, I'll be honest with that. I never this
is so there probably are some stories. I'm not sure
that like. Some of them are you know, stuff I
don't want to discuss. Those are the ones that are
the deepest and most personal to me. I really do
(33:29):
not like this time of the year because this is
what we call the fighting season, and when we lose guys,
it's typically you know, late August, September, October, and in November,
and my calendar is just inundated. I lost twenty three
(33:49):
people that I would have given my life for that
I always thought were better men than me. And I
mean there were things that we did. Hollywood couldn't in
their best screenwriting, could not make up some of the
(34:10):
things that were really life lessons. If you're not only
going to survive in a place like that, but work
in a place like that. We went to like one
of the very first tribal meetings we went to when
I got to the team in two thousand and five.
(34:33):
We went up to an area and also in swaly Coot,
and we knew it was full of bad guys. We
went on the backside of this mountain and I kid you,
not indescribable. There had to be four hundred people in
(34:56):
black guard, black eyeliner with weapons. And we stumbled upon
a funeral that they were having for some Taliban guy
that got killed, and and we pulled up in our
gun trucks and or no, back then we didn't have
(35:19):
gun trucks. We had like highluxes and pickup trucks. I
just remember getting on the radio and I'm like, well,
this is either going to go extremely well or it's
going to go extremely bad. And of course I have
to give all the credit to my team because everywhere
(35:41):
we went we rehearsed and practiced in nauseam. So when
you do something, people always related to CQB or direct action.
You know, when you do something one hundred times in
a day, well maybe not in a day, maybe in
two three days, but you do it over and over
and over, you start figuring out what step what somebody's
(36:04):
what foot they're gonna step off with, how they lean,
you know, whether they're quick on a one or slow
on a one. And I just like through the door open,
put on my ball cap and walked right out in
the middle of them and started digging my Dirk and
dirkham homage. Hot was like, Hey, I don't want to
(36:27):
kill nobody here, but somebody wants to sit down and
have tea. Tell me what's going on, See how I
can help you. Were you you want to get in
if you want to get in a fight? Was a
rock up? Were you?
Speaker 5 (36:45):
They were like, and were you in Afghan Guarb? Were
you in uniform?
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Or oh, we were in We were in.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
The uniform and kid full full battle rattle.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah, And we were just doing uh at the time
when were doing a series of operations called squeak, Clear,
hold and build, so we were sweeping the area for
enemy concentrations and activity. We would clear it with combat operations,
move in and secure it, try to hold it, reinforce governance, security,
(37:19):
governance and development, and then try to stabilize it to
give legitimacy to the central government, which they didn't understand
in their culture, so it sometimes it was an opportunity
to open a window, and that's what I would That's
(37:40):
what I would do. That was one of the ones.
The So ultimately what happened is after I waited out
there in the middle of all those people, the tribal
elders son came over and I greeted him all of
(38:01):
you know, respectful things, in front of everybody else. And
he walked over and he grabbed my hand. And for
most people who don't know, like in their culture, when
another man comes over and holds your hand, that's a
social symbolic gesture that this man's my friend.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
And what he was telling them all is that you
cannot touch him. I'm going to talk to him and
we're going to have a discussion, and he spoke for
his father. And you know a lot of them, dudes,
we would end up fighting or killing later.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
Just because they Yeah, that's just it. It's a very
differin than in Western culture. And I know when I
was a mean a lot of people had problem with that.
But you're right, that level of closeness, they would you know,
getting in personal if I remember, we used to say
that there's no concept of personal space in Afghanistan. You know,
(39:03):
they would be very close to you. You would you
you know, they would get in what in our society here,
we'd get very uncomfortable someone got that close. That's just
the way they were. And like say, grabbing your hand
and holding your hand walking through the fob or you know,
through the village or whatever. It meant a lot. It
almost was like a shield. It was. Yeah, it was
like a cone of protection. Yeah. And uh, you think
(39:26):
that had an You think that probably saved you or
probably put you in a good light with a lot
of those people not to even try to mess with
you while you were there, because it sounds like you
merched yourself right in the middle of them.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
Oh yeah, I can't. I mean, I'm I told you before, man,
I'm a Semna student and I was a third string
quarterback that showed up on a Super Bowl team of
good guys, experienced guys, seniors or seniors, juniors or juniors,
(39:58):
very professional h They worked hard, they played hard, and
I knew that when I told them I'm going out there.
You know, my team sergeant ended up being one of
my best friends in the whole world. His names Willie loopers.
He got killed November fifteenth, actually in a train accident
(40:24):
at a charity event in Midland, Texas. Was a very
tragic accident, and the last thing he did was save
his wife's life. He threw her off of the the
truck that they were on in the direction of the train,
which threw her clear and then then he was killed.
(40:49):
But he was the kind of guy that, like we
knew our roles, like having a prior service captain or officer.
We would all always laugh and he would say, you
throw the big bullets, I throw.
Speaker 5 (41:03):
The small ones.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
You know what I mean. Like I call in a
close air support, I'm calling in indirect. I'm sending up
sit reps. If I'm fighting for my truck, something's probably
pretty bad. But he does the fireman newt he you know,
we always in our ttp and SOP. I was in
the first truck because I wanted to be able to
(41:26):
send the first situation report troops in contact whatever it was,
and I was. I had sworn that I would never
follow my troops in combat, and it worked out perfectly
because I was just the needle and those guys behind
(41:47):
me were the handful and the sick one. So all
I had to do was pennye me down or identify
them or give them a good excuse me, a good
sit rep, and they were doing their things. So by
the time I waited out there in the middle of
all those people to do my thing. When I came
(42:10):
back to the trucks, there was only two trucks there,
but they had dispersed all of those gun trucks and
those civilian trucks and the Afghan We didn't even have
the A and A back then. It was the Afghan
militia forces that we were fighting with, and they basically
had probably a five hundred meter long half moon of
(42:32):
guns and people and they knew, you know, the Afrighan.
I mean, those people knew exactly what that meant. If
I didn't come out of that group, it wasn't going to.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
Go well, right, and they got the hint. So let
me just curious to go back to that young man,
the guy's son who grabbed your hand. Was he someone
you stayed in contact with. Was he someone that became
an ally or did he unfortunately become an enemy later?
Speaker 4 (43:03):
No, Unfortunately we ultimately ended up having to another. One
of the more daring things that we did. We literally
disguised a couple of vehicles, drove right to his house
(43:24):
and arrested him because we knew he was running a
NAII decent and brought him back, put him in the
punk facility, interrogating him for a couple of days, and
then basically we ended up letting him go and just
told him, if we get the next inclination, you're dead.
(43:45):
Matter And I would say probably about a month later,
some highly confirming intelligence came in that he was back
doing what he did, and somebody put a j pill
target on him and killed him.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Yeah, he picked aside the obviously with what you did,
speaking the language and and and all that, I mean,
besides just the enemy combatants on the battlefield, you like
you said, you establish friendships and relationships with some of
the local leaders and obviously with your interpreters probably, but
any anything anyone that stands out that, uh, that you
(44:25):
know you stayed in contact with after well after you're
done doing tours. Anyone that just you know, you saw
the hope of humanity and that you say you you
you said, this is I mean, if they could all
be like this, this would be a much better place.
Someone that was in it for the right reason.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Yeah. The only one that I can honestly think of
that was still alive after probably the ten year mark,
after I've been deploying Afghanistan for ten years, was probably
my interpreter and we the other interpreters had been killed
or captured and tortured and mutilated. And I managed to
(45:07):
get my interpreter and his family out of Afghanistan. And
it took four and a half years of dealing with
the paperwork in a nonsense and the embassies and the politicians,
(45:27):
and but yeah, he's he's well, actually there's two two interpreters.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
But most of my they were.
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Never they were like the definition of what we were
there fighting for.
Speaker 5 (45:45):
Yeah. Yeah, most of mine I've won in New York,
one out in Colorado, and I probably have three or
four living in the DC Baltimore area. A lot of
mine got out that that weren't killed, and uh, you know,
they they're doing everything from teaching classes to working in
schools to being uber drivers, So they're kind of across
(46:07):
the board. Now, we talked mostly about Afghanistan, but you know,
you have just as many of the other tours, you know,
up to the seventeen some of these same questions about
those other places, and you don't have to say what
places they are or whatever, but whatever you feel comfortable.
But anything that stands out for any of those that
you know, maybe they weren't as kinetic, or or maybe
anything that happened there or anything you saw that you
(46:27):
you know, you know, I always tell people in combat,
we see the worst of humanity and we see the
best of humanity. I've always said that, right, And there's
always you can't have good without bad or or vice
a versa. But anything from any of those that stands
out that just was a again left an impact on
you as somebody, an event, a person, anything like that
from any of your other combat tours.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
Man see, probably one of the things that very early on,
one of the things that we did, one of the
operations that we did was probably a true joint and
(47:15):
combined operation against a three groups of insurgents are around Canada.
So there was one one insurgent commander who had a
pretty large number of guys. And when I say pretty large,
(47:39):
I mean if you've gotten maybe seventy to one hundred
fighters dudes carrying guns that do what you tell them to,
that's a pretty large group, and we had two groups
of something probably smaller between forty and fifty. And one
of the things that I love history, and I'm always
trying reading about how, you know, the how do small
(48:07):
numbers defeat larger numbers. You start thinking about, you know,
Hannibal and the Romans or whatever, like what did they do,
how did they reinvent the wheel or just change their
game to come out victorious. And I had a couple
of guys we'll say their names are Gene and Jay,
(48:32):
and they were great Intaeil guys. And they came to
me one day and they're like, you know, we're gonna
have to really be careful about going and trying to
operate up in these areas because they're very fluid. These
guys are very fluid. They're well supplied out of Pakistan YadA, YadA, YadA,
and the ID threat hadn't really kicked off, so we
(48:54):
were getting ambushed or doing the ambushes quite a bit
when we could get good solid intelligence. But I was
what I wanted to do originally, is I wanted to
find a way. I mean I got ten SF guys
and maybe thirty Afghans, and the Afghans hadn't been through
basic training. They're getting what training we give them, which
(49:16):
is better than most at that time. But I'm like,
how do I mitigate this threat because we can't go
through any valley or up any road in Afghanistan. You know,
the key terrain is the people and the people that
get on. The key terrain in Afghanistan is just everything
(49:37):
is above you. So we came up with a bunch
of different options, and what we ended up doing was
some small kinetic operations. So what we found out was
when the pay guy was coming from Pakistan to pay
these three groups. So what we decided was we would
(50:07):
leave some information behind when we ambushed the people coming
across with the money and made it look like the
largest of the insurgent commanders was the one that stole it.
So two days later we get this you know, intel
(50:29):
report from people that are working for us providing information,
and it's like, hey, there's there's two hundred and something
Taliban up here fighting each other and the two smaller
insurgent commanders didn't like each other, but they disliked the
other guy more. So when my intel guys found out,
(50:55):
did their their profiles, their psite profiles on the three
of them. It's like, hey, we get these guys to
turn on each other, we can mitigate this entire force
and never fire a bullet. And that's ultimately what we
ended up doing, was we ended up ambushing the patrol.
The pay patrol that came across the border left some
information to make it look like the larger of the
(51:17):
insurgent commanders was the one that stole it, and then
the other two smaller guys attacked him. So the force
of one hundred and fifty plus or minus insurgents got
whittled down to about forty five or fifty amongst the
three groups. And that's to me, that was like what
(51:44):
you do as a green breat Like, how do you
mitigate the enemy without having to send over a bunch
of American troops and spending a whole bunch more money.
And I had such good commanders in my battalion and
my group that they're like all I had to do
was give them a five minute brief over in a
(52:07):
ridium phone, and I could do it when I was
on the way there, Like I wasn't calling to have
to ask for ten different levels of permission. I would
just call and submit a five w leave the wire
and hey, we're getting ready to hit a bomb maker
or we're getting ready to do this. I just want
you to know so when it spikes in the top,
(52:28):
you'll know it's us. Cut on the trackers, cut on
the radio, boom, and you can operate. But that I
feel like that was one of my biggest personal victories
as a tactical level commander was to take these guys
that had been I had been given the opportunity to
(52:51):
serve with, that were so smart and so dedicated that
we came up with this crazy plan and like, where
else are you gonna learn to do something like that?
Speaker 5 (53:04):
Right? I mean that's the epitome of you know, small
unit warfare. It's but when you got you got a
thirteen man team or whatever, you you got a element,
and you're going against a much larger, you know, numbering force,
you've got to use every combat multiplier you know, and
obviously and things like that. Right, we used closer support,
We used you know, calling up to the sky and
getting bomb runs. But this is using intel and just
(53:27):
outsmarting them and getting them turning and dog eat dog, right,
having feet off each other. And uh, like you said,
you didn't have to fire a bullet and you wiped
out about two thirds of them.
Speaker 4 (53:38):
Deserves fun.
Speaker 5 (53:40):
Yeah, that that's a lesson many could learn from after
the fact, right because it's not uh, I know, there's
a lot of analogies and probably old things going back
to a Genghis con and everything, but it's not always
about you know, hitting them with direct energy right up front.
Sometimes you know that that that brains the strongest muscle
we got, you use that, you don't You don't have
(54:01):
to work too hard. You know, a lot of us
in the army always work harder or not smarter. But
that's definitely a case of working smarter.
Speaker 4 (54:08):
If you think about the ten primary principles or sayings
from you know, the Art of War by Son Su.
I mean it was applied by you know, a Chinese
general against massive armies. But those principles like they are,
(54:29):
I mean, it doesn't have to be Classwitz to be
good principles of war. You know, attack the enemy where
he isn't right, yeah, you know, would never attack a
four to five city. You know. My favorite one in
all of the counter insertion classes I ever taught was
if you don't know yourself and you don't know your enemy,
(54:51):
you'll never want about it. If you know your enemy
but you don't know yourself, or you know yourself but
you don't know your enemy, you don't want to win
half your battle. But if you know yourself and you
know your enemy, you'll win all your boss.
Speaker 5 (55:04):
Yeah. Yeah, and that and that could be applied to
a lot of things in life, not just count Yeah.
I mean I was a hockey coach for many years,
and I used many principles and and and lessons out
of the military to to teach young boys how to
play hockey and and and be successful and and that
kind of stuff. Same same thing. But uh, and in life,
(55:25):
right in the corporate world, right, you compete and you
do this and that, and you know, you know your
competitors know you're you know, all that kind of stuff.
But uh, yeah, that's uh, that's something. And so we'll
wrap up here. We got a few minutes. Stuff When
you look back over those tours and and all that stuff,
and you've written a great book. I've had the link
up there, lines of Canada Heart Love It, have it
(55:47):
on the coffee table still upstairs.
Speaker 6 (55:48):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (55:48):
It's one of my favorites. And and uh, you did
a good old boy from Appalachia did a pretty good
job of writing a book there, I gotta tell you that.
But uh yeah, I know you're you're definitely mating class.
But when you look back on accomplishments and things, you're
proud of, not just that, but even your own men,
because you wrote a lot. I mean, your book was
all about phenomenal men that you served with and stuff
(56:12):
like that. Anything you can think of is just one
of your greatest I mean, you look back with just
fondness and just pride on anything that you know, the
menu you led, the menu you served with, and the
things that you guys did that just really stick to you.
Speaker 4 (56:30):
I don't know how much time do you have. You
might have to do another whole episode. So one of
my junior Bravos ended up going to Delta. My junior
Charlie engineer ended up becoming a warrant and he's now
(56:52):
one of the top five pilots in the one sixty.
He's rated on six different aircraft, three fixed wing and
three rotary wing platforms. My junior medic Delta when we
called Shaky Steve. He went to Harvard Medical School, married
(57:18):
and got like six kids. Now one of the top
and finest doctors and surgeons in the US Army, Like
if you want somebody operating on your child's eyes. That
like when I when I look at the men that
(57:39):
I served with, every single one of them, like being
a Green Beret was just a stepping stone for them.
It's just a piece of time, you know, it was.
When you're in the job, it's not what you do,
it's who you are, and then when you get out,
(58:01):
it's what you did, not who you are. And I
just I thank God every day that I was given
the opportunity to serve on and with guys that did
(58:22):
more than I could have ever hoped for them to do.
And I think that that and my biggest my biggest
takeaway from home was that my wife ended up being
everything that I ever prayed for. And the only reason
(58:45):
I think that I'm here, that I'm still married, and
that we've been as successful as we've been was because
I had I didn't realize at the time, and I
made a lot of mistakes, more mistakes than should be
ever forgiven for. But being an Army For anybody who's listening,
(59:11):
Army wives may not wear a uniform, but by God
they serve, and sometimes their service is harder than Irish
because I know where I'm at and I know what
I'm doing. But when I'm dating myself, but when the
beeper goes off or the cell phone goes off and
you give them a kiss and you go downstairs and
(59:31):
you grab your bag and you leave, sometimes you can't
tell them where you're going, what you're doing. And that's
to me, that's a real hero is there. They're going
to be there when you come back, you know, you
just so so my teammates and my family made every
(59:54):
sacrifice worth it. Yeah, I got to walk as a giant.
Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Yeah and you probably you stood as a giant over there.
But uh no, it's got to be rewarding. I mean
to see these guys on your team who you were
with them and you know, teaching them and mentoring them
and providing leadership young in their lives and careers. To
see them move on to do other things like this.
You know, like you said, it was a stepping stone,
(01:00:23):
but one that was instrumental in giving them a solid
foundation to go on and accomplish phenomenal things, you know,
and that kind of stuff. And it's awesome to be
to be able. It's just like when employees, right, so
you grow them, they get promoted, they get to take
a new responsibility, they get a leadership position, and you're like, wow,
at least I got to you know, hopefully something I
(01:00:43):
I you know, and you know, put on them, something
I trained them on or whatever contributed to that. And
me personally, I look at that as a success. I
look at that, that's awesome that they're now doing this.
And I know it's got to feel the same way
for you of like, yeah, you may not have taught
them all the medical stuff, but you know you definitely
were there instrumental and giving them those core skills to
(01:01:06):
build to be a success, right, Because that's what I
do a lot in my company, trying to hire veterans
and that kind of stuff. Because when I work with recruiters,
it's like this guy can know that technology or not,
but he brings so many or she brings so many
soft skills and other skills to the table that no
one here has. That's a civilian, you know, and they
operate and people know who former military folks are. They
(01:01:27):
can tell the difference.
Speaker 4 (01:01:29):
Just and well, I mean, there's just there's so much
communication and small units that first of all, when you
go like I couldn't wait to get up and go
to work every day because you never knew what it
was going to be like. And I knew when I
(01:01:51):
stepped in that team room it was on. Whether it
was shit talking or shooting or training or planning or
whatever it was, somebody in there is going to test
you to make you better, and they're not going to
settle for you know, like my medics, how many people
(01:02:13):
do you know trained? Like we would go to the
range to do night shoots and they would break out
a box of ivs and we would have to give
each other ivs under knots. That's something you had to
do in the range regiment a long time ago. I
don't know if they still do it, but like that
was something they plugged in on their own because they
(01:02:36):
knew it was important because all of our work's.
Speaker 5 (01:02:39):
Done at night, right. Yeah, no one asked them something.
Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
Like that, I mean, and I would see them do
that stuff, man, and I.
Speaker 5 (01:02:46):
Was like, Yeah, they took the initiative knowing it needed
to be done, even though no one told them to
or direct them to. They just knew what it took
to make the team that much better, that much better prepared.
Yeah absolutely, yeah, yeah, well hey Russy, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
Man.
Speaker 5 (01:03:03):
We did another hour. I appreciate you coming back on
back to back two weeks in a row. And uh
for a guy who told me beforehand when I first started,
I got nothing to talk about. There is I haven't
done anything. It's not much. I'm like, oh, man, I
know I've read the book. I know better than that,
but uh, I mean it just it is amazing. Thank
(01:03:23):
you so much for giving you your second I know
a lot of people are looking forward to it. I
got a lot of comments after last week. People were
sending me text with you, quotes that you said and
that kind of stuff. And uh, yeah, I'm glad we
were to make this happen again, and especially when you're
a busy cat right now as uh as you've been
moving and doing a whole bunch of other stuff. But
thank you, man, I appreciate it. It's good to see
(01:03:45):
you again, brother, and uh and and giving us your
time and your night.
Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
And much. Man, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
I love talking about my guys. Man.
Speaker 5 (01:03:56):
I'm very problem Yeah, absolutely, dude, I feel you and
I totally get it. When I get back down your way,
which I'm down there quite a bit, I will definitely
I'll hit you up. And if we find ourselves there
together at the same time, I'd love to swing by
and give you give you a I'll hold your hand,
(01:04:17):
that's for sure, all right, buddy. Well, hey you have
a good night. Thank you everyone for tuning in. Make
sure you tune in on Tuesdays for Leaving Charlie Thursday
nights for our regular show. Check out all of our
sponsors they've been scrolling at the bottom. Make sure you
check out Rusty's book Lines of Candaheart Prime. Big Day
deals are going on right now. Maybe you can get
a deal on it. If you can, it doesn't matter.
It's worth every penny to just really understand what our
(01:04:41):
special forces did in Afghanistan and what sacrifice and real
patriotism is all about. So with that, thank you, sir,
Thank you everyone for tuning in, and I'll give everyone
a good night.
Speaker 4 (01:04:52):
Thank caving me go.
Speaker 6 (01:05:00):
By farm by pay, by farming, by patient, by finding out, by.
Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
By finding bott.
Speaker 6 (01:05:23):
Fifty ft
Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Fift
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