All Episodes

September 19, 2025 • 56 mins
Founder and President for the Center For Combating Elder Financial Abuse. John proudly served his country for over 30 years: nine years as an active duty Army officer and 24 years as a FBI Special Agent. John created the Center on February 8, 2021 - 10 days after he retired from the FBI. The mission and vision of the Center are the following: 1) Mission: Lead the way in protecting the elderly and their families from predators who commit elder financial abuse, 2) Mission of the Center: Help our nation reduce elder financial abuse by providing innovative detection and prevention solutions. The Center will provide education to the following groups: 1) the elderly and their family members, 2) social service groups, 3) veteran organizations, 4) religious organizations, 5) financial institutions, 6) medical centers, 7) educational institutions, and 8) entities with the criminal justice system.
Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Welcome everybody to another episode of Stewing the nine, Episode
three seventy nine. I'm joined here with special guests John Schwartz.
Even John, thank you for joining.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Hey, Rob, thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm excited, sir, So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh man, I'll tell you what. I'll go all the
way back to the army and work that way. So
I had the opportunity to go to West Point, graduated
in eighty six, went into field Artillery, and after that
I spent time at Fortsville, Oklahoma. Then after that I
went to Korea for a year, then came back went

(02:15):
to Fort Drum, New York. Then I finished out my
career in ECU and teaching East Carolina and the university
teaching Roaltc. And while I was there in ROTC, I
came across a brochure for the FBI, so I started
getting interested in that. As I was out processing the army,
the FBI said, you know, the process takes a while,

(02:38):
So I went and got a job into Interim and
then I got accepted into the West into the FBI
in December of ninety six and graduated Quantico on April
of ninety seven.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
So nice?

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Did you had you always? I mean, do you come
from a military family? Did you know anybody in the
family ever joined the military?

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, my father was in the military as well as
my brother, but very they were both in for a
very short time, so we didn't consider ourselves of a
military family. So just kind of came across the opportunity
for West Point. It looked interesting, so I just pursued it.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
So nice, nice, And so how did you end up
in artillery?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
So? I wanted to go artillery because I wanted to
be combat arms and I thought that would be the
best way to go about it, and I did. I
loved it. I was missiles initially and then I went
to cannons and I enjoyed that. But it was I mean,
providing us supporting fires for maneuver units, right.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Right, right, Yeah, there's a whole lot of nothing in
Oklahoma and surrounding.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
I tell you what, I enjoyed Fort Hill, Oklahoma. It's
a lot of fun. But yeah, you're exactly right, it's
very very empty there.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
And you were teaching at East Carolina. I mean, what
you're teaching RTC there or Okay, Well, what was that like?

Speaker 2 (04:07):
I loved it. I found that the students that we
were teaching, the cadets that we were teaching, were very,
very unmotivated. We're looking forward to join in the army
and serving. And I learned a lot in that. You know,
you're teaching the leadership, and when you teach the leadership,
you learned leadership. And I saw superb example was a

(04:27):
leadership from these young cadets. And I stay in touch
with a couple of them even today, twenty plus years later,
and they did it. They all have phenomenal careers, and
I was very happy.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
For him, and as it's always rewarding as a teacher
to see your students go on to be successful.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Oh yeah, no, absolutely, so, yeah, they all were magnificent.
I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
That's awesome. So you said you saw the FBI and
that looked interesting.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Had you ever thought about joining the I mean, you
know you did this time in the military in the army.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Is the FBI ever run your radar before that?

Speaker 2 (05:02):
No, that's a great question. Never was. I really just
came across a brochure one day. I took a look
at it, shared it with my wife, and I said, hey,
what do you think, she goes, yeah, that makes sense.
I could see you doing that. So started the process
to apply. It's very long process, but yeah, I was selected.

(05:23):
I was very happy. And then after that I was
able to go to Quantico. And after Quantico, I was
assigned to Washington Field Office here in d C. And
spent all my time FBI time here in the DC area.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
So do does.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
The FBI do specializations kind of like you know what
we'll call an a T or an MS in the army,
where you kind of get put in these categories and
do certain jobs all the time.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
That's a great question. So depending on what type office
you go to. If you go to a large office,
you can you can either specialize or they're going to
transfer you around so that you can round out your career.
If you go to a smaller office, you're expected to
know most of the A violations, whether it's national security

(06:10):
or criminal work. So it really depends on the office.
But I really enjoyed that because if you find if
you found an area that you enjoyed doing, U say,
counterintelligence or counter terrorism, you could do that your entire
career and no one's going to no one's going to
make you rotate like you experience in the army.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
So so what were you doing in that office? What
was your your kind of first job.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
So I found I started off on a drug squad
doing criminal work, and I found that amazing. That was
a great introduction for a career. And then after that
I was able to do counterintelligence for a little bit.
Then I was able to go to the aviation squad
and fly or surveillance flights for approximately four years. And

(06:56):
then after that I jumped back over to counter terror
and did that about three years, and then after that
went to cyber division. So it is I mean, that's
what the FBI allows individuals to do. It's a great opportunity.
So any any of your listeners that either young enough

(07:16):
to apply or if you have children, adult children, nudge
them that way to take a look at the FBI
job jobs dot com.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
And right when you're in that So you said you
you got out of the army in ninety five, right, yeah,
so you're an encountered you know, counter intelligence or counter terrorism.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
That's right right in the thick of.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
When we were leading up to nine eleven, So you
were you were pretty pretty busy around that.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
I bet, yeah, really was so. I just so I
went over to the National Security Branch maybe a year
before nine to eleven and then a nine to eleven hit.
Being here in the Washington Field All Office, we spent
all our time investigating the Pentagon. It was saw some

(08:07):
great people doing some great work, and it was it
was very tough, but it was also some of the
most rewarding work I've ever done.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
That's that's the kind of that type of event was
was an all hands on deck type of it was.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
It absolutely was right. I mean, our world had changed,
our nation had changed, and yeah, the FBI had to
respond to it.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, so any anything that you can talk about, you know,
any of that, you know maybe normal people wouldn't know
or you.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Know, no. All I'll say to that is I was.
It was very it was a great honor to be
part of that effort to respond after nine to eleven,
and I saw incredible individuals working tireless, leaping through that

(08:58):
entire time, the initial investigation at the Pentagon and of
course at the other sites as well. But I was
very humble and very very proud to be able to
be part of that effort.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Nice, So you mentioned you went into cyber. That's that's
kind of near and dear to me. I'm a solutions architect,
cloud solutions, drug take by trade. So I've been in
communications in the IT field for a very long time,
for close to thirty years now. So what was your
did you have any interesting going cyber or was that

(09:34):
just the next available thing and it's like that looks
kind of cool or how did you get to cyber?

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, I looked at it. I said, you know, I
haven't done cyber yet. I'd like to go in cyber.
So I'm not a very technical oriented individual and I
didn't have that experience, so I called so I would
tell people know, I'm not as zero as in one
kind of guy. I'm a policy kind of guy. But
I still enjoyed learning as a as much as I

(10:00):
could about cyber intrusions and how to harden the target
and how to harden networks. But it was it was
absolutely fascinating.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Well and being in that. So that's you know, post
nine to eleven, the IT industry changes on. You know,
it's always always introducing new stuff, right. You know, the
biggest thing right now is AI, right, so that's that's huge,
But it's evolved especially since you know, nine to eleven

(10:29):
to where we're at today, and not only in the technology,
but the techniques of our adversaries and how they're attacking
and what they're attacking. Can you kind of go into
a little bit of that.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, I mean just a little bit on that. So
it depends on you know, nation state actors are do
their trade craft differently depending on what country they're from,
so you have to be aware of that various trade
craft as well as the criminal organizations too and how

(11:03):
their trade craft evolves. But no, we were able to
work with private industry as well as our governments on
how to harden the target and whenever there was an intrusion,
be able to react to it very quickly. Was absolutely fascinating.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
And so, I mean, the US has made a lot
of enemies over the years, right, you know, but our
two biggest ones have always been Russia and China, at
least as long as i've you know, I've been alive.
Was that always the case early on and going you
know to where we're at today, or have you seen
that landscape change a little bit over the years.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
No, I mean when I was in the when I
was in the Bureau those were the two main adversaries, right,
and it was the majority of the work that we
were doing there. So I'll tell you that I got
out of the FBI and of twenty twenty one, so
it's been a few years since I was last working

(12:06):
against cyber adversaries. But I'm sure it hasn't changed much now.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Hardening the target is always hardening the target, right, I mean,
it's just like I said, the technology changes a little bit.
It's just you know, a little tweak here and there,
you know, And and of course it depends on what
you're deploying. So see, you spend twenty four years in
the FBI, I'm assuming a good portion of that doing
the cyber and then that led you into what I'm

(12:31):
assuming is is kind of.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
A huge interest in a passion.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
And that is what you're doing now for combating elderly
financial abuse.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, that's right, that's exactly right. So while I was
in the Bureau, I started looking at elder financial abuse.
I never worked it as a violation. I started gaining
an interest in it, and I looked at our nation's
effort to combat elder financial abuse, and I saw gaps
in it, and I thought that maybe I could retire

(13:03):
from the FBI and set up a nonprofit so that
I could have a most impact throughout the nation as possible.
Currently we have sixty million seniors. I wanted to set
up a program to where we look at the crime
of elder financial abuse through the eyes of the predator
and then teach individuals how to predators operate so that
we can detect the predator. So I'm really going back

(13:26):
to my military background, right, I mean, all we're doing
here is learning to enemy tactics.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Sure, what were some of those gaps that you identified?

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well, one thing that I saw is that when I
was looking for the annual cost of elder financial abuse,
I kept seeing various numbers that had a wide range.
The first one that I saw was from met Life,
and they came up with a number and I'm not

(13:58):
I want to say, yeah, it was three billion dollars. Okay,
three billion dollars, But then another US study came out
and said no, it's probably more like thirty seven billion
or thirty six billion dollars. And then I was like, well,
hang on, you know that's a wide range. We got
to know how big the problem is before we can

(14:19):
accurately address it, right, I mean, that's that's doesn't make sense.
So now AARP came out with the study in twenty
twenty three and they estimate that the problem is twenty
eight point three billion dollars. And again that's from twenty
twenty three. So that's what I go with. But I

(14:39):
shared with audiences, I tell them, Okay, you know, I
can rattle off, Hey it's twenty eight point three billion dollars.
But let's go a little bit further with that. And
if you divide that by fifty states buyer fifty states,
that means that's a five hundred and sixty six million
dollar problem per state. Again, rough, that's a rough figure. Right,

(15:00):
That's a very rudimentary average, just as a guess, but
it is a starting point, right. Sure, So if you
take a look at that, I mean, what other what
states can say, hey, we got a financial problem, financial
crime problem that's larger than five hundred and sixty six
million dollars when you put it into those terms, right, Yeah,

(15:22):
it's hard to find something that will compare to that.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah, And I'm sure there's there's some differences.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
Right, So as you have states like Florida that has
a very large retirement population, they're obviously going to be
more right, So there's there's probably places like that that
should be more encouraged to kind of tackle this type
of problem.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, exactly. And you know, don't get me wrong, there's
a lot of great organizations doing great work. But when
you look at hey are twenty eight point three billion dollars,
I mean, can we do something? Can we provide education
to our nation seniors as well as their trusted and
responsible family members too, Because I call family you know,

(16:05):
I call the senior who gets attacked financially, I call
them the primary victim, but I call family members secondary
victims because they're totally affected by this. Absolutely. Yeah, So
that's that's what I wanted to do. So when we
started looking at the crime of old financial abuse, and

(16:27):
I thought that a good way to start would be
looking at the crime through the eyes of the predator.
So I started looking at convicted cases and I said,
I'm going to put these on our website and these
can be free to anybody at any time to read
these various convicted predators to learn their tactics and techniques.

(16:49):
And that's that's the principle or guiding about principle.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Right, I'm a I'm a kind of a pattern recognition
type person, right, So I recognized patterns. So do you
other than these individuals being elderly, do you see any
other kind of patterns within that you know that attack?

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, let me share a pattern that I've come up with.
And it's somewhat concerning here and what it is. And
I'm getting my notes in order here. I am. I
have two cases. The first case is an individual and

(17:34):
I'm I apologize right in front of me, all right,
So let me go through this case first. So this
case is Scott Cohen, and here's the pattern here. I'm
going to read from a DOJ press release from twenty
twenty two. But it says a California man receives a

(17:55):
ten year sentence following guilty plea in South Carolina for
fraud conspiracy, and below that, it says he masterminded a
three hundred million dollar ponzi scheme targeting retirees and military
pension holders. It goes on to say that Scott Cohen
was a ring leader of a nationwide ponzi scheme that
exploited military veterans in desperate financial straits and targeted elderly

(18:18):
investors seeking a safe retirement investment. All right, so we
have a predator that was convicted for stealing three hundred
million dollars through a Ponzi scheme. That's unbelievable. Well, I
found another case. Let me read through this former investment
advisor sentenced to a decade long ponzi scheme. John J.

(18:41):
Woods was sentenced eight years in federal prison for operating
a thirteen year ponzee scheme, victim seeing more than four
hundred veterans. It caused more than forty nine a loss
of over forty nine million dollars. It said that Woods
abused the trust of his victims, including retirees, seniors, military veterans,
who lost their life savings accounts due to its greed.
So here's a pattern. I have two convicted predators convicted

(19:07):
that both ran ponzi schemes here on American store on
the soil and targeted military veterans. That's one of the
biggest patterns that I've found.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Well, your retirees or on fixed incomes, right, so it's
not like they're going to go out and go get
another job. You know, maybe maybe a Walmart greeter or something.
But when you hit that retirement age, you're on that
fixed income. And so you know, as inflation hits, right,
and we all know retirees, you know, whether you're getting
a pinsion you know, you're retirement from the military, or

(19:38):
maybe a four to one k or whatever, it's just
never enough.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Right.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
So I'm assuming people go after these individuals because those
individuals are looking for ways to make their income go further,
whether that's do investments or you know, things like that,
and so it makes them, you know, huge targets for
that type of stuff.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Well, it does, I mean it absolutely does. Let's talk
about Scott Cohen a little bit more so. He masterminded
a three hundred million dollar Ponzi scheme. So let's talk
about this really quick. Tell me any criminal that need
three hundred million dollars, I mean, right, most criminals, if

(20:18):
they could get away stealing fifty million dollars, they could
buy go and buy all the cards, all the houses,
all the vacations that they want to the country, whatever. Yeah,
whatever you want to do. Fifty million dollars. Well, Scott
Cohen clearly hit the one hundred million dollar mark and
said that's not enough money. I need to steal more

(20:38):
and I need to create more financial devastation for military veterans.
And then he got to the two hundred million dollar
mark said the same thing. He was only stopped after
he reached three hundred million dollars. So I'm elaborating on
this point to point out it's not about greed. Greeds
is the simple seventh grade answer. These are motivated, motivated

(21:02):
by the thrill of the hunt. That's the only reason
you steal three hundred million dollars and create that much
financial devastation. And that's one of the main points that
I wanted to get across in this podcast, but to
my audiences too, you better understand the motivation behind your enemy.
And that's the case.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, we talked about states like Florida having a higher,
you know, retired population, and you've mentioned veterans a couple
of times. Around a lot of large military installations, you
find a very large population of retirees because they have
close access to services, right whether it's the hospital for
their medical care, whether it's the PX and the commissary

(21:42):
for food and those types of things. So veterans tend
to gather around those bases. So you would think that
the states that have large basis. Fort Bragg, Fort Hood,
Fort Knox would be very interested in this type of stuff,
you know, to help and to protect their community.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Right, absolutely, that's one right, So we set up this nonprofit.
We wanted to work with seniors in all fifty states,
and that's what we intend to do. I will tell
you that our largest success so far is working in
the state of Pennsylvania. We've had an opportunity opportunity since

(22:22):
twenty twenty two to work with Pennsylvania Department and Military
and Veterans Affairs and General Maureen Weigel and her staff there,
who is extremely forward leaning and protecting their senior veterans
from various time types of scheme elder financial abuse schemes.
So it's been a great honor to work with them. Also,

(22:43):
we were able to join forces with Association Certified Fraud
Examiners and just this May we had an article posted
in their fraud magazine about elder financial abuse and veterans.
So we're doing what we can to help protect veterans
throughout the nation. And we're very proud of our work

(23:04):
with with Pennsylvania Department and Military and Veterans Affairs. And
I got you know, let me go a little further
on this. I have to point out that we've been
able to do this work with veterans of Pennsylvania Veterans
Affairs along with doctor Michelle Bertina of Westchester University just
outside Philadelphia, as well as Miss Kate Kleinert, who was

(23:29):
a former AARP national spokesperson and a victim and a
survivor of a romance scheme. So all of us, all
three of us combined our efforts to write that article
for Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, and we're absolutely thrilled
about it.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
That's that's awesome, That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
You know, we talked a little bit about you know,
it's that the individual getting targeted, right and then how
it kind of there's there's secondary I mean that absolutely
goes onto you know what that are that are collecting
that military pension after you know, their husband or significant
other dies. So I know, you know, through just friends

(24:09):
and things like that, how just how tight things can
be and how difficult it is just to go through
that paperwork just to be the person that you know
can accept that, you know, that money after the spouse
has died, and for that then to be targeted by somebody.
It's just reprehensible.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Well it is, I mean, you stated very well, it is.
It's absolutely reprehensible. Let me also share with Scott Cohen,
he placed more in thirteen thousand veterans and exploitative loans
come on thirteen thousand.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
That's a lot. That is a lot. So, yeah, and
the elderly. You know, we've.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Again patterns, you know, I've seen over the last probably
last decade, we're seeing more Alzheimer's patients. Right, So Alzheimer's
seems to be more prevalent. I don't know if we're
getting better at detecting it or if it's just actually increased,
but I'm sure that plays a huge role in you know,
in what you're doing. Is how do you go about

(25:16):
I mean, are you able to work with you know,
some people that have the power of attorney, are they
very receptive to that type of stuff, or you know,
how's that working with Alzheimer's patients.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, so we haven't worked with any organization specifically. But
let me go back to kind of our original theory.
So I don't call them frosters, I don't call them scammers.
I call them predators because that's exactly what they are
because they will deliberately target groom and take control of

(25:47):
their prey. When I say take control of their prey,
I mean I measure that on a scale of one
to ten, with ten being the highest. So that predator
can gain a control level of eight, nine or ten,
they can absolutely wipe out your life savings. So these
are predators that are targeting. So predator one oh one, right,

(26:08):
I mean, who if you see an elderly individual that
has a pretty substantial nest egg, but you see the
oncoming of Alzheimer's, right, and you're going to target that individual.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
So how often do you see things like you know,
because it's very very prevalent and pervasive. Now social media, right,
so I know myself and I've taught my kids, you know,
careful what you put out there.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Be very restrictive.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Only allow the people that you know, and don't just
put all of your information out there. And one of
the important things you know, I try to express to
people is if you're going on vacation, don't put that
on Facebook. Don't say Hey, I'm going to vacation, because
then that lets people know, hey, you're not going to
be at your house.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
All right, exactly. So what do we call that? That's
that's free intelligence, right, Yeah, that's exactly what's going on there.
So that's what I say as well, be very careful
on what you're posting on social media and if it
gets to the point to where if well, let me

(27:15):
back up, what I ask seniors and trusted and responsible
family members do is work together as a team and
come up with talk about that. Does the senior really
need to be on social media or not? You know,
a way to pros and cons? But maybe not right,
I mean, because the bad actors are on Facebook as
well as other social media and they will target you.

(27:37):
Kate Kleiner that it explains that she met her predator
online and she says, I never took friend request, but
this individual she doesn't. She says she doesn't know why
she did, but she did and that was a predator.
So what I say is be very careful on social media.

(28:00):
Get yeah. And my whole strategy is I want seniors
and trust and responsible family members to work together to
harden a target. Right, sure, understand your vulnerabilities and hard
to target, because all you have to do is hard
to target just a little bit, and that may be
all the difference in the world.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
One of the things I explained to a lot of
people when it comes to multiple accounts, right, especially things
like Facebook. And I don't want to sound like I'm
picking on Facebook, but Facebook is very pervasive in the
way that they allow you to sign into other places
using your Facebook credentials, right, so they share all that information.
What I try to tell people is, don't do that.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
Don't do that.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Create you can use the same email address, but use
a separate password for each of the different accounts, and
then use a password manager to manage your stuff. And
what that allows you to do is if one of
them gets compromised, not all of them get compromised. Right,
So it reduces your footprint, It reduces the effects of
what they're attacking. Use separate passwords and if you can,

(29:03):
like me, I use multiple different email addresses across all
of my different things, so I try to reduce that impact.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, there you go, right. I mean these are all
simple pieces of pieces of advice that helps you harder
to target. And it applies to seniors as well.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Do you work with any organizations that like teach that
type of stuff for seniors, like you know, maybe maybe
a Facebook class or a social media class that teaches
them how to kind of lock their stuff down because
those settings change, it seems weakly, and they make it
harder and harder to find things, and you know, turn
certain things off and lock certain things down.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, exactly, So I don't I haven't teamed up with
the group to do that yet, but i'd like to,
but let me share, if you don't mind. I came
up with ten actions to take to take now to
protect the elderly from finance anti predators. Sure my faure
to go through that.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
Let's look through it.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
So my very first piece of advice would be slow
down new relationships. And I put that there for a reason.
So I say predator speed up relationships in order to
create confusion. That's found on various online schemes. So take
a romance scheme. You meet somebody on Facebook and they
want to move the conversation to what's apt and then

(30:25):
all of a sudden they start talking about you know,
I feel a connection between us, you know, and then
they'll try to move it forward. Well we haven't even met.
Well no, I'm overseas, I can't meet you, but I
feel this strong connection and they'll try to speed up
the relationship.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Well, that happens with retirees, right. So we talked about
being on the fixed income, right, Well, that one of
the next thing that happens in tires is because as
we get older, we lose spouses, we lose friends, we
lose and so elderly are always looking for, you know,
some friendship, looking for somebody you know, to kind of
especially somebody they're aged with some shared experiences, So that
that makes them another easy target on top of you know,

(31:05):
just being elderly and being on that fixed income.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Well that's exactly right. So what I say is these predators,
whether it's online or people that you meet in person,
they will target your emotions. I call it emotional hijacking.
So what you just described their loneliness. Loneliness is a
very strong emotion, right, and that predator, if that predator

(31:29):
feels they could fill that gap of loneliness through the
emotion of love, yeah, they'll run with that and it's
very successful.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
Right yep.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
So I share with a romance schemes. I'll say, ask
your new online friend to conduct a video call and
also have a friend or family members sit with you
while you're doing that, right, I mean, like this setting here,
you know, ask that individual to do a online video.
Third one I want to hit on is online investment schemes.

(32:02):
Be extremely careful on taking investment device from your new
online friend. And I'll follow that with number four cryptocurrency.
Be very careful making online investments or online payments through cryptocurrency.
Those are what I've just covered there. Those are the
four major ones that I share with audiences because it's cryptocurrency.

(32:26):
These online meeting your new best friend online, who's suggesting that, Hey,
have you ever looked at cryptocurrency? That's what I'm seeing.
That's the trend and pattern that I'm.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
Well, cryptocurrency being new.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
I mean, there are ways to do it, but it's
kind of billed as you know, untraceable, right, So it's
a little more difficult to trace that cryptocurrency than it
is you know, bank accounts and who's access to what, right,
So it's a nice target to go after.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, I think, so that's exactly right. So what I
tell you know, I don't tell individuals, hey, don't do cryptocurrency.
What I do tell them is if you've never if
you've never done cryptocurrency, don't start learning from a new
online friend. Let me share something with you that I
want that I found. So this is a press release

(33:19):
from Senator Durbin from just Tebruary of this year. What
he says in this press release is very important, so
I want to share it with everyone. It says there
are now more than thirty thousand cryptocurrency ATMs in this
country and they have been used by criminals to cheat
Americans out of their hard earned savings to a tune

(33:40):
of one hundred and fourteen million in twenty twenty three alone.
Most of the victims are senior citizens. Let's stop right there.
You have a US senator saying we have thirty thousand
cryptocurrency ATMs in the United States today, and these machines
are being used to steal American hard earned savings. So

(34:03):
that's why I wanted to cover these those four suggestions
as well as that fact these cryptocurrency schemes, I'm seeing
them time and time and time again, and I'm seeing
individuals lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Right well, you know, kind of like the drug wars.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
Right.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
So, part of the part of the problem with government
is their their ability.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
To react officially and effectively right, and that so let's
say let's say you have a drug and it's it's
a certain formula, right, Well, if now that formula becomes illegal,
all they have to do is go in tweak one
molecule and it no longer falls under what was now illegal.
And so cryptocurrency, their tactics are changing, right, So all

(34:49):
of the old tactics have been caught up to and
so then now they've got to find new areas to
go after and you know, a new vector to attack.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Now that's it. I mean, you just drived it perfectly there.
That's exactly right. So we've got to get ahead of
the ball game. So again I appreciate being invited on
here today because we've got to do a much much
better job and hardening the target. I'll give you another
tip that I want to share with the audiences. Sometimes

(35:19):
there will be pop up screens, and the pop up
screens will say, hey, you've been your computer's been compromised.
We found fourteen viruses before we go any further. But
it's a sense of urgency, right, speeding up the process.
What we need you to do is either pull out
your driver's license or credit card and hold it up
to the camera so that we can verify you are

(35:41):
who you are, right boom, that's the attack and it
happens act quickly. So never never, never share any information there.
Like I just gave a demonstration of.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, I encourage people, whether it's a laptop or whether
it's a you know, desktop like I'm working on now,
have a camera that you can close the you know,
close the shutter on, right, and they make they make
little devices for your laptops as well as you can
cover it or just put a piece of paper over it.
They don't, there's no reason because that's that's becoming another
attack vector, is being able to take over your laptop,

(36:17):
take over the different devices key loggers and et cetera,
but cameras as well.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And then let me go with these
pop screens a little bit further. What I suggest seniors
and trust her and responsible family members do also know
how to turn off your volume on your computer, and
know how to turn off your computer all altogether. I
say volume because some of these pop up screens will

(36:43):
also have an alarm on it, and that's annoying and
it's going to make you act more hastily. And then
also if a pop up screen comes up, you know
it's going to scare you know that you can turn
off your machine and you'll be safe. So please practice
that one thing. And with these pop up screens, if

(37:04):
there's a number to call immediately, do not call that number.
Don't call a number on a pop up screen, a
text or an email.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Right, Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
One of the biggest things being an it gud that
I see is you go whether it's from your provider
or whether you go by a router yourself, and people
install it and they never change the default password, right,
And so all of those default passwords are all over
the internet anybody who searches whatever brand it is, and
a lot of times you can get the brand based

(37:38):
off the serial number of the mac address or things
like that. And if you're attacking from the outside, you
can go see what the default password is and you
can find out that very easily. So make sure you
you know, harden that router as well, so that's your
entry point into your network.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
So that's a great piece of advice. Yeah, that's exactly right,
change that password. And then for your computer, also for
your telephone, keep up to date with the updates for
both machines. And if a senior is not familiar how
to do that, maybe you have a trust and responsible

(38:15):
grandchild that can help you with that. But that's absolute key,
right Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
And that goes with all the devices you had as well. Right, Like,
so if you add a camera or your you know
whatever other types of devices those have passwords on them,
make sure you lock them down. Make sure you put
a password on them. That's not the default out of
the box.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, that's right. And then right, I mean change these
passwords you know, annually or whatnot. Have a program and
work with a trust and responsible family member every six months.
Take a look at where you are on this program.
I'm my website. I have a couple of I have
a couple of things on there. Three things. First of all,

(38:57):
I have a vulnerability survey and that was developed Wayne
State University and doctor Peter Lichnenberg, and I'm very thankful
that allow us to have it on our website. But
that would be the number one piece of advice I
would tell seniors is take that simple seventeen question survey
because you'll identify your vulnerabilities and now you're looking at

(39:18):
yourself the way the predators look at you. And if
you understand what your vulnerabilities that predators connects point. Now
you can develop a strategy to harden the target.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Well, one of my favorite coaches of all time was
Bill Parcells, primarily because I'm a Cowboys fan. But and
Bill Parcells had it and I'll probably butcher it. But
Bill Parcells said, when.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
You don't know what you don't know is worse than
when you do know what you don't know.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Nice, So think about that. If you don't know what
you don't know, you've got to have a starting point.
And so if you don't know you have all these
vulnerabilities that you do, you may think you're secure. But
if you go and take that survey and you realize, hey,
I've got all of these problems. I need to make
sure that I take care of those, that's.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
It right, And then take that survey every six months.
What I suggest seniors do is mark on your calendar
every six months one hour and sit down with your
trust and responsible family members, take that vulnerability survey, identify
your new vulnerabilities, and work together develop those strategies. So

(40:25):
if you take a sixty five year old that's still
married to their spouse, they're a healthy family close by,
they're active in the church or playing golf. They're going
to score low on that. But advance that a timetable
up maybe past five years, maybe a spouse has passed away.
Maybe that was the spouse that managed the household of finances.

(40:47):
Right now, that vulnerability score increases. So just because you
rank low on vulnerability at age sixty five, just make
it common practice one hour every six months. That's two
hours a year, because you've worked forty plus years to
make your entire life savings and you certainly don't want

(41:07):
one of these financial predators to take it all away
in a blink of an eye.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Absolutely, absolutely, So what else you got in your list?

Speaker 2 (41:16):
So what I would also suggest is if you get
in a high number of calls, just simply take a
look at considering changing your telephone number and sharing that
new number with just trusted individuals. Another one that's that
everybody's heard of before. Don't click on text and don't

(41:39):
click on links and text and emails. We all know that,
but I want to mention that again. And then with
these tech support schemes, I've already said, do not call
that telephone number that's exactly right. And then the last
one is consider a freezing your credit. I don't say
go ahead and do it. I just say consider it.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Well, they have things like LifeLock and stuff like that
you can put on there to help you kind of
restrict that, and those you know, they're sure there's a
cost to that, but you know, if you're going to
be a target, that at least helped make it, you know,
a smaller, smaller attack vector.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
You mentioned.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
You mentioned the calls. I'll tell you a quick story.
This happened probably about a year ago. I'm sitting at
my desk and I'm working on my cell phone rings
and it says it comes across as the name of
the bank that I bank with, So my bank never
calls me. I answer it and the guy starts asking
these questions, and me, being an it guy, I immediately
know it's a scam. So I said, no, that's okay,

(42:39):
I'll call the bank myself. My wife in the other room,
her phone immediately rings, and it was literally the same
guy trying to get her to answer the questions I
wouldn't answer. So if you get a call from your bank,
politely tell them no, thank you and then turn around
and call the bank yourself.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Flip over your and look at the number that's on.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
The back and call that number, or if you have
the app on your phone, call them through the app
on your phone. Never answer any questions for somebody who
has called you and starts asking you questions about your bank,
never answer those.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, exactly, that's exactly right. One piece of elder financial
abuse that I want to touch on, if you don't mind,
is the emotional aspect of older financial use. What happens
if you do become a victim and you've lost your
entire life savings, and now you blame yourself and you

(43:37):
may go to dark areas. What I want to share
with the audience right now is we never, never, never
blame the victim. We always put one hundred percent of
the blame on the predator who committed a criminal act.
And that's huge. That's a very huge message because that

(43:58):
will help seniors themselves from going into very dark thoughts.
At that point, they may be facing one of the
largest crisis in their entire lives and they need their
family support. I want to share that we never never
blamed the victim. One blame goes on the predators every time.

(44:22):
And that's a segue into a program that we're just
kicking off. It's called a Dumb Breaking Project with Kate's
Hug and I'm our center is conducting that we have
advocating against romance schemers and it's being sponsored by Match Group.
Let me tell you a little bit about this. So

(44:42):
we are it's named after Kate Kleiner who we've been
working with, and she was a romance scheme survivor and
what we developed. The idea that we developed was for
these individuals that have lost all their life savings, what
can we do? And Kate came up with the idea

(45:04):
of giving him a hug, physical hug through an item,
So we decided that we would have blankets. So through
the generous donation through a Match Group, we have enough
funding to purchase two hundred of these kits and we're
going to give them out to law enforcement anywhere in

(45:26):
the country so that if they do get a call
from a victim and they've lost their entire life savings
and that money probably won't be returned, at least law
enforcement can give them one of our Kate's Hug kits
with a blanket. So they can wrap it around their
shoulders and know that someone cares.

Speaker 4 (45:46):
So I wanted to put that information now because this
emotional component of old financial abuse you don't see in
many other types of crimes, but it's very, very important.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Have you been able to work with any state representatives
or you know, at the federal level to kind of
help push legislation, you know, to get more protection for seniors.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
No, we haven't, though, So when we set up as
a five O one see veteran operated five oh one
C three nonprofit, we said that we're going to do
education and that we weren't going to lobby for a
new laws.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yeah, we'll educate.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Lawmakers on you know what I've shared with everybody today,
the annual cost, how that breaks down per state, and
that I look at it through the eyes of the predator.
So I'll educate.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
But now, yeah, as a C three you can't lobby.
I mean, if you're a C ford or other you
could so, but as a C three you can't. So
that's that's you know that I'm hoping that there's some
groups out there that are lobbying for better protection. You know,
we talk about this in the in the country A
lot about our most vulnerable, right, And you hear a
lot about you know, the homeless, which absolute they're vulnerable.

(47:01):
You hear a lot about our children, which are absolutely vulnerable.
But we can't forget about our seniors.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Right. If it weren't for our seniors, we wouldn't be here.
And so we've got to make sure that we give
them every bit of protections that they can.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
So amen, Yeah, you sat up perfectly. I agree with
you one thousand percent. It's an underserved sometimes it's an
underserved population, and we're just trying to bring attention to
seniors as well.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
I was just thinking while we were talking about the
social media stuff, and I was one of the things
that an idea that just came to me is social
media needs to put in a senior function, right, say, hey,
this individual using this as a senior, and you can
turn that on and it completely locks down your environment
to all the protections and hardens it as hard as

(47:51):
it as it needs to be. There should be something
like that within social media to help protect those seniors.
I think that'd be very easy to code in. You know,
you can turn it on and turn it off, you know,
but I think that would be a very simple even
beyond seniors, even for kids. For children have a children
functions where it completely locks it down and keeps out predators,

(48:13):
keeps them you know, from them being discovered, you know, searchable,
all of their information being on the web. So I
think social media has an obligation to protect their customers
and that's something that they should do.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
No fantastic, Yeah, I mean again, you know, we've already
talked about how seniors are targeted through various forms of
social media, so it is a little bit of hardening
the target goes along way.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Yeah, I just don't think that there's any appetite for
the social media companies to do any of that, because
then that reduces, you know, the amount of information that
they can gather, the amount of information that they can sell,
you know that you think about like things like Instagram
and Facebook. They can find a meme that you put
up three years ago and suspend your count, but they

(49:00):
can't get rid of all the pornography and the and
the you know, the exploitation of different people.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
So it's it's almost as if there's no appetite for there.
So I think that the government definitely has some work
to do in the social media platforms, so very good.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
But just going back to the emotional piece of this
really quick. I can't state this enough because I've seen
too many cases to where families have lost the loved
one from taking their own lives, and then once that,
once the seniors passed away, now to secondary victims of

(49:38):
family members, they live with that pain for the rest
of their lives, and they with it every day.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Absolutely, And and sometimes they're left with some of the
debt as well. You know, the government's going to get
their money. Yeah, so yeah, the government then.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Comes after those those children, you know, for that for
that debt.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
Yeah, exactly, so right. I mean it's there's so many
different aspects to this crime and trying to address some
of them here in this conversation.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Well that's great, that's great. Well, is there anything else
you want to cover? You got any more tips, tips
and tricks?

Speaker 2 (50:17):
No, just I'll say this right. I mean, these predators
aren't going to go away. Technology is only going to increase.
So I think we have a perfect storm brewing right now.
We're at sixty million seniors, We're going to be at
seventy million seniors in the next five years. That is
the largest five year growth of seniors or nations ever experienced.

(50:41):
So are we ready for that? And I mean, so
what I'm urging individuals do hard to target. Be very
proactive in educating yourself, right, I mean, listen to this,
but then do your own research online. Look up you know,
I stated a couple of cases, but look up cases
and then work with a trust and responsible family memberature.

(51:04):
Don't let yourself be isolated because those predictors will.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
See that you showed a couple of cases and those
seem to be citizens here in the US. Do you
happen to know what the kind of percentage of the
breakdown is from overseas attacks on these elderly versus domestic.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
No, I don't. I'll tell you roughly fifty percent. But
that's not a very it's not based on any It's
only based on what we're seeing. But let me share
with you one thing that we are seeing is that
we're seeing individuals for nationals here on US soil that

(51:44):
are acting as money couriers. And once a online predator
is communicating with you and saying, well, you owe this
amount of money or your grandparents scheme eight thousand dollars,
will get your grandson out of a prison. We're going
to send a courier to your house to pick up

(52:06):
the money. We see a lot of that. So if
I would tell your audience, if you get one of
these calls and a courier is coming to your home,
call law enforcement immediately and they can intercept them. But
I'm seeing a lot of these money courier cases, so
I want to share that. And then the new tactic

(52:26):
that these money courriers are sharing are doing is they're
asking individuals to go buy gold bars and they'll come
and pick up the gold bars. So it's called the
gold bar scheme. And I'm seeing that. So these are
foreign nationals, but they're on American soil picking up funds.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Well, we talked briefly about AI, and that's a big
one that I know of where you'll get a phone
call and it'll sound like it's from somebody you know,
but it's all AI generated, right, And so you may
get a call from your granddaughter, your grandson saying, Hey,
I'm in jail. I need you to money to this
number or to this whatever. My suggestion would be, if
you get that hang up, immediately call that individual back yourself,

(53:09):
your grandson, your granddaughter, your daughter, your son, from the
number you have in your phone and speak to them.
Then you know, if that couple of seconds, if they're
in jail, they're not going anywhere for the next couple
of seconds, So call them back on yourself on the
number that you have, and then.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Call the authorities. Right, So call the authorities and report it.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah, exactly, so right, I mean the grandparents scheme what
you just described, right, I mean emotional hijacking. Well, this
is your grandchild, right, so they're kind emotionally hijack you,
and they're trying to speed you up too. So what
you just said was slow down, take a deep breath,
hang up, and call either that grandchild or their parents.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, And then one thing that they'll do is that
they'll call with the grandparent schemes, either really late at
night or really early in the morning too. So right,
that's the next or a piece of vulnerability. You're awakened
by this call, Hey, your grandson, understanding that's a tactic.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Yeah, don't call me before I've had my coffee.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
I'm not awake yet, so absolutely, well, John, I appreciate
you coming on and giving us you know, sharing this information,
sharing your organization. Is there anything any final thoughts you
want to share with anybody?

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Yeah? I hope that this was helpful for individuals. Please
go to our website. E n d EFA dot organ
stands for end eld or financial abuse. It's a free website,
no passwords required. It's open twenty four to seven. And
if you like what we're doing, and if you'd like
to make a donation, it's you can easily donate on

(54:54):
our website as well. Any donation will be greatly appreciated
because we're a brand new and we're trying and grow.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Fantastic, fantastic. Thanks everybody for joining us this afternoon. Thanks
to our sponsors UH mar Veta Gear for Grunts, Enlisted
nine Fight Company, Alpha Lee Performance, Boohemmer dot Com. Appreciate
everybody joining us tonight. Thank you John for for coming
in and bringing all this information.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Thank you Rob hang On.
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.

24/7 News: The Latest

24/7 News: The Latest

The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.

Dateline NBC

Dateline NBC

Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.