Strange Recon Presents_ UAP Analyst Steve Long 28SEP23

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Now now now, now, nownow now now remember remember remember mother?

(00:49):
You remember mother? He remember numberhe remember remember I remember abbn alright,

(02:57):
what's going on? Recon? Weare back. Oh look at my wig.
It's on strange Ladies and gentlemen.We were on this morning with our
good friend Jess, and we're backtoday with our friend Steve coming on and
towards just twenty five minutes at sixthirty pm here on the East coast.
Thank you for coming back and hangingout with us again with stra injury con
It is uh, you know,it's been a busy day, but not

(03:21):
much has happened. So, Imean, there's been some stuff that's happened,
but you know, you can't askfor something big to talk about every
single day in mythology. But soI spend today not necessarily see learning what's
going on in the present, buttrying to read as much as they can
about things that have happened in thepast. And some of those things.
Of course, you know, I'mgetting from just one or two sources,

(03:43):
but it's still rather interesting. Excuseme recently been focusing again on the UFOs
and nuke and UFOs and nukes thingbecause I don't you know. I wonder
if if I've been a little toodismissive over certain aspects of it, but
certainly not the ones that we've coveredhere at the show. But either way,
I'm I'm reading some of Robert Hastingsstuff, you know, and I

(04:09):
of course have no idea how muchI you know, I necessarily agree with
Robert as things, but I dothink he's has told one heck of a
story and done amazing work in somefields. And you know, I don't
know if people have already learned certainthings about him that I have not discovered
yet. But I'm looking at someof these things and I'm thinking, you
know, he's kind of on aboutthis, though like many others, we

(04:32):
would disferentiate and disagree at the pointof the path where we have to establish
whether something or not his alien orUFO or from another world, or something
being covered up rather than just asecret technology. But always, you know,
a lot of these individuals, Irespect the work they provided. I
just feel like that's you know thatthat crossroads are I'm like, well,

(04:53):
listen, maybe, but I don'tthink the evidence that you have that this
this is a cover up leads towhat you're what's being claimed that the cover
up is specifically about aliens, andyou know, one of the things I
call it just like talking to Jesttoday and thinking about it, like why
it to Do cover stories have atheme? Do cover stories have like card

(05:19):
trigger words all this stuff? Likedoes the influence from the counterintelligence communities are
offer special investigations throughout the history ofethology have a theme in which they only
use certain words of terms when areasof the sky are being I don't know.

(05:41):
I have a slight suspicion that's what'sgoing on here, and Hastings works
kind of proves it to some degree, but it's I don't know where do
you stand with Hastings? What doyou think about Hastings? Before I ramble
on about Hastings in the second showwe're doing today, what do you think
about Robert Hastings. At a certainpoint, you would think that, you

(06:04):
know, this type of work wouldlead somewhere that would ultimately lead, you
know, have people make a decisionon this topic and walk away, but
doesn't lead that way. It leadsto evidence of a cover up. But
we don't know what the cover upis. It must be I'm not saying
he says this, but it's prettynot unclose. He does state at one
point his opinion is that it isin fact aliens and Roswell did in fact

(06:24):
happen the way it's being told.I don't think cover stories have a theme
necessarily where I mean, I don'tthink cover stories are I don't even a
word this. If the cover storyis working, then Robert Hastings and so

(06:44):
many others are shouting exactly what issupposed to be happening. Aliens are the
answer. If the cover story isa weather balloon and that's the answer for
everything, then you know, itleads people to continuously look for better answer,
as it could not be that explanation, And so you have like this,
I don't know, like cyclical likething happening over and over and over

(07:09):
again, whether it's influence from whetherit's sanctioned or not, influence from former
or current active counterintellent people where theymake people go off and start essentially falling
into those same patterns over and overand over again. I don't know.
I lost myself here when I sawthis message by someone who basically said,

(07:30):
I don't even I'm not going torepeat that ladies and gents, Boys and
girls. I'm sorry about my ramblings. I was just in the middle of
reading Robert Hasting's work right probably startedthe show realizing it was six o'clock already,
and just thought to myself, like, you know, if someone's on,
if someone's doing counter intelligence work properly, wouldn't the people that feel like

(07:51):
they're onto something in the deepest darkestcorners of the secret keepers labyrinth it would
be exactly what they what they wantthe researchers to find. I mean,
that's kind of like, what doI assume I'm not smarter than the CIA?
But why does so many people feellike they they are? I understand

(08:13):
that that things have holes in theleague, like I said, and all
those of them evidence everywhere. BeLike when individuals believe they can outsmart an
entire department, the windows wide open, you could probably a dirt bike in
the background. Sorry, when peoplethink they can figure out this entire thing
from a perspective that you can't reallysee the whole. You can't see the

(08:37):
force, the trees, there's multipledepartments. It's not you know what's that
term from from Tommy Boy. Youcan get a good look at a t
bone steak. Well, if you'reonly looking up that area at the t
bowe steak, you're not going tosee the full picture. And so when
people are constantly like all the evidencepoints to this, are you sure the

(09:00):
evidence was not put there on purpose? Are you sure you're not being led
down a path because the people thatyou feel the most reliant are reliable rather
the most credentialed in the most connectedto the specific incident. Are they doing
something else? Are they working forthe nation that they work for their entire
life? Are suddenly, now thatthey're old, they're just going to start

(09:24):
working for a guy and a cameracrew. I find it hard to believe
that in a world where Jack Brewer'swork is true, which I do believe
it to be true accurate. Ithink it pays a great picture, and
and and and all these other thingslive in the same world. It just
doesn't make any sense. Like,you know, how could Robert Haste?

(09:48):
How could so many believe they're ontoit when they think they finally found,
you know, the evidence for Alien. I think Alien's a great cover story.
I probably would have got that thatpoint in about one minute if I
hadn't looked at this goofy message fromsomeone in the front right at the beginning
of the show, but ah,you're hanging out with me here. We

(10:09):
got Steve Long coming on at ten. Bobby Broadway says, it's strange not
seeing you in the morning. It'slike seeing a teacher when you're a child
outside of the school. Except me, it's more like the gym teacher.
Okay, Simon Fly, what's goingon? Breeder Syndicate, Good to see

(10:31):
you, gg Abbey Lynn long time, no see, Glad you're back around.
Flarkey, Good afternoon. Flarkey,who was just recently a guest on
the show, says, finally adecent guest on the show. Oh self
deprecation, but I'm sure he's talkingabout some other people. Rock Asty,

(10:52):
thank you the being here again.I'm glad to see you back eleven black
lamb. If a channel provides achat, they must adhere to the first
event rules legally. Thank you CreatorBlockers for providing a case in suit versus
YouTube. I don't know exactly,Brian, help, what's up, Gracie?

(11:20):
What's going on? Everyone out thereon the chat? What's going on?
I don't know what happened to jessAs an interview yesterday about all right
this morning, rather that it alreadygot demonetized. I think it's because I
did use the effort in it.But I have not used any swears today
and today it was today. Sorry, I'm not used any swears this episode.

(11:41):
So I am going to try toadhere to that one, huh and
make it through this whole entire thing. You cursor king milk fat? What

(12:01):
king milk fat harassment archive? Isthat a private message? How did you
send a private message to me?Is that? Can everyone see this?
Oh? Yeah, I am morein learning. I say, pm PM,
all right, should we play acouple of things, get some music

(12:24):
going for a second, do alittle dance part. Oh sorry, For
some reason, I thought I wassuddenly the host of the Elmen Degenerous show.
Give me a massive favorite recoud.You know, I'm trying to work
my butt off to earn your approvaland get some more followers and subscribers who
are on YouTube. Do me infavor and hit that button. If you're
new around here and you want tosee more, you want to hear my
bad jokes and shoo. Almost Ialmost have like a compulsive issue where I

(12:50):
cannot. I mean I almost,I literally know I do where I cannot
not make a joke and say somethingridiculous. And I'm gonna get this video
demonetize again. I just know it. I just know it. I just
know it. Come on, folks, help me fight it, Help me
fight it. I can't say anythingthat is gonna get me demonetized trying to
earn a buck off of YouTube video. Come on, folks, we're gonna

(13:13):
have Steve Long and uh about fifteenminutes here, stick around and be right
back. Welcome, strange recount.I'm there to discuss the so called flying
thought. There's nothing more than itwas observationable, of course, which we

(13:33):
bought new differently. Now I sawthat. I don't give a god damn
what anybody else says about it.I saw that on film Phil Classics.
He wasn't there. I was whenyou're the whole the name in every language
and that cray you know nothing,but that's nothing. We are back,

(14:15):
recon Thank you for being here,Thank you for being here, so rated,
grinning, and everyone else has justshowed up before I went away.
Thank you, And I see Steveis in the chat. It is a
great crowd. It's always a greatcrowd. I love to get this crowd
stirred up and then hand them overto our guest in an unruly fashion.

(14:35):
Can't wait for Steve to show up, and then I'm gonna fake like I
have a camera problem and go away. It's a classic old joke I like
to play. It's a little jokeI like play called year Alive on YouTube.
Good luck, sir, you've gotthe show. Let's see how he
handles it. Folks, We're gonnaput them under that unbout immense Hollywood pressure

(14:56):
of a strange recon audience. Hey, ricon, I just found out.
Nope, nope, almost did it. Let's move on. Okay. Anyways,
as I as I was saying earlierwhen I was talking about Jack Brewer's
work, if you haven't yet,head over to UFO trail dot blogspot dot

(15:16):
com and uh, you know,have a look at at his most recent
submission to his blog and start fromthere if you want to get into some
of the older stuff and see howsome of the individuals that we you know,
some of the individuals some of thetactics, if you will, if
that's a term, and and theyou know, the possible conspiracy. What's

(15:37):
going on seems to have never goneaway. And uh and the influence from
obvious, I mean, whether they'rewhether it's sanctioned or not. Either way,
it's happening from people that have theskill or know how and and want
to lie with backgrounds and credentials fromthe intelligence community. You can see that

(15:58):
there's just you know, if youhaven't read Wayward Suns, get into it
because it's just too good. Andthe documents are there, the links are
there on the blog, and youcan see that this goes back a lot
further than you'll probably realize, especiallyif you're someone who's only joined into the
conversation maybe in twenty seventeen. Andthere's no one faulting you for that.

(16:22):
There's no one like saying, hey, you get out of here, we
want you around. But there isa long history to this topic, well
outside of of you know, Imean, you know, like like this
whole process you're hereing about today,though many things have occurred when it comes
to the actual thingschange and a politicallanguage and but not. But there's a
long history disclosure and this influence campaignis very similar to many plays that have

(16:47):
been running the past I think SteveY going to chat a little bit up
about it, and others who havesubmitted, you know, examples of times
when they themselves have been influenced tothe point of, you know, doing
things that got them in trouble,legal trouble, you know where. You
know, it's not it's not thefirst time, and I'm sure it won't
be the last. And you know, I talked to Jess a little bit

(17:08):
of this morning. If you haven'tseen the episode, please go check it
out. But it's we covered awhole bunch of topics quickly. I was
trying to get a little bit ofeverything. But you know, David Grush
the same concept. David Grush essentiallyin essence gets overloaded with documents, witnesses,

(17:30):
people pointing them towards programs. It'slike the opposite of what took It's
the same play that took place.Uh, you know so many times short
history, but this time it's ofcourse it's this time it's instead of like,
you know, one operator, itseems like there's like five offenses going
and it's just it's it's a crazyamount of impact and influence, a basically

(17:53):
irreversible amount of influence, even ifit's a small portion of the total public,
it's quite large in a hole.And and fake documents, uh,
you know a you know, constantalleged facts that can't be released, but
are there. They know what's happening, you know, it's just it's the

(18:15):
same thing over with David Grush.Seems like that perfect example of a person
that didn't just get one document,didn't just have one person leaking to hims
leaking stuff to him from Air Force, from the Air Force, or rather
vice versa, rather him leaking stuffout or I guess in this case it's
I really mean the people that aregoing the whistleblower oute and went to Grush
with with others out of the putoff and Davis's crew. But these people

(18:40):
did not give him one thing ortwo things. They gave him, you
know, enough for him to givean eight hour wasn't it our eight to
twelve hour total briefing to Congress?I mean, it's it's it's the it's
the if you read it and youkind of stay back just a little bit,
imagine yourself, you know, takeit all know once, It's it's
really not hard, it's not bigof it. It's not that much of

(19:03):
a stretch rather at all. Youknow, to see so many of the
same old things you've heard in thepast but not really seen many specifics until
maybe you read Wayward Sons by Brewer. But but you know, so many
things from all the way back inthe fifties you're gonna see are being played
out today with so many similarities,including just people claiming of course disclosures right

(19:27):
around the corner. I find itpretty fascinating. But to read Wayward Sons
and then to look at someone likeHastings work, which I still am completely
open to. I mean, Ilike reading his work. But I'm you
know, whatever we everyone disagrees inthe end of what it all means.
You can think it's instrumental demons allyou want. I'm sure other people have

(19:48):
their opinions about it. We've heardthem quite a few here. We've heard
it quite a few of them.We've heard it. Oh my god,
let's move on. But it doesn'tsee seem like it can almost exist in
the world where the things that he'sled to believe, or the things that
others that have wrote Roswell are ledto believe. You know, you have

(20:11):
a you have a very it's amuch much less likely chance. I don't
know. I'm trying to say here, it's a far less of a chance
with any of these things to beas legit as originally thought, like the
aliens attached all these claims and eventsand experiences and all of this stuff,
and it's just it's it's not lookingtoo good. If Elizondo in the in

(20:40):
the modern twenty seventeen attempt, ifhe actually wanted to raise awareness, he
certainly did. And it reminds meof when someone raises awareness or something to
the point where its people recognize thatit's a load of something. You know,
it's it's not accurate, it's nottrue. It's not even close to

(21:03):
what they claimed. The alien bodiesweren't what they said they were. You
know, it's it's it's unfortunate.And I hate to be such a critic
about it, because I do actuallythink there are pretty weird things out there.
A lot of individuals have come alongmy way and been like, dude,
you're you're crazy that you know,it's it's all a lie, All
of it is nonsense. It's allin people's heads. Well, I think

(21:26):
that there are interesting aspects of alot of the stuff that that that have
that have yet to be even associatedwith this, with this topic, because
they're so far off in a way, and no one wants to really say
that, like there's a disorder likelily Putian hallucinations and other things like that,

(21:47):
they could possibly be what people areexperiencing in some way, or even
multiple people at once or all.I don't, you know, I don't
know, but they it's there's stilla lot I think to research and go
off of. And I do thinkthat, of course, that we are
nowhere near I mean, I hopenot, but it's possibility, is it
not that we are? We arenot the rubicon of of what's been you

(22:08):
know, lean from the world.We don't. We're not the top beast
out there, but maybe a lotof dead space. We're just waiting for
our guests. Today's coming on inseven minutes, folks. I know I'm
a boring son of a gun.I apologize time for some jokes. Nope,

(22:30):
no jokes today, not this timearound. We're gonna make it through
this episode monetized, even if noone watches it. I apologize, Steve.
People seem to watch when I'm sweatingthrough my clothes and yelling at someone's
a liar. People don't seem towatch what I'm doing. What I'm doing
right now? Tell much to thinkabout Robert Hastings. Folks, if you're

(22:52):
a fan of his work, letme know win the chat. We should
have an episode or two about himin his work. Where is that now?
His last some missions and all thatgood stuff. After all. A
good reason why the UFO and NewConnection is even known about today, or
is even cared about, is becauseof the work that he and others dug
up. But he he spoke quitea bit. He made it quite a

(23:15):
few lectures, some of them arestill out there. You can go find
him on the Internet time machine whatnot? Oh, I just heard something there.
Our guest is here, so we'regonna bring him on him in just
a second ereicon. You can gofind him on Twitter. Please go follow
him over there at UAP or SAPand Steve is. He has a fascinating

(23:41):
series of posts. He's on itlike a pipple and I guess that's a
bad metaphor, but he's very Pippleisn't really analytical. They probably shred the
place. But no, Steve ispretty analytical. He's on it. He
has had interesting sightings of his ownthat throws own, you know, series

(24:02):
of investor research's he's you know,figured out to be probably something in prosaic
like a dirigible or blimp or something, and but it through that route like
many of us. He you know, he changed over time. He learned
that maybe you shouldn't trust people firstin the field when it comes to like,
you know, what's happening. Manyof the famous stories we know,
unfortunately have been you know, manipulatedor exaggerated into the reality they are today.

(24:27):
So Steve was someone I picked upand noticed and brought on the show
up all times because of how accuratehis work is. And you know,
you need balance. Of course,you can't just have me, you know
I am. Anyways, Ladies andgentlemen, kats and kittens, put your
hands together for our guests here.Let him hear it now that he's here,

(24:48):
Steve Long, Oh, what's up, Jeff Strange recount? How's everybody
doing to night? What's going on? Man? Looking good? You just
get out of work, just gothome, got home in time to join
you guys and talk about UFOs.It sounds like I can hear some energy

(25:08):
in your voice. I don't knowwhat it is. I feel almost as
if like your UFOs are draining youthe excitement, right, you can hear
it just pouring out of me.Well, unfortunately there are I guess like
you'd really try to like bring upall these questions in a really optimistic sounding
voice, like with a high endage sentence, but I probably won't be

(25:30):
able to. But there's been aseries of things that have happened over the
last few since the last time wespoke. Man, I know we speak
on Twitter once in a while,but there's been a ton of things that
have happened, some of which weregrotesque, if you will. Some were
we're great, great schemes, madeit all the way to like the Hollywood

(25:52):
level, and others were you know, seemingly small to people, but that
they're they're happening, and they're thingsthe ball is turning, things like the
Schumer Amen Amendment, other organizations settingstarting up to fulfill the UAP need or
whatever it is. What are someof the things that you've wanted to cover,
Stephen, the last oh you've noticedin the last few months. Yeah,

(26:18):
well, first, thanks for havingme on tonight. Jeff it's always
a pleasure to come on here andtalk with you. Amazing that amazing intro,
man, I was beautiful. Iappreciate that. Oh I wrote it
down. I keep it above mybed. I caught a lot of your
show with Jess earlier today, actually, and I'm like, I don't know

(26:38):
what I'm gonna talk about. Youguys covered everything. You know, well,
we kind a little of everything.We can get into some stuff.
No, yeah, you know you'retalking at the end of the beginning.
I am feeling a little bit drained, I think by you know, the
UFO cycles, the constant ups anddowns and the things that never come to

(27:00):
fruition. But we're supposed to begrateful for these kind of things that come
to fruition that are just more likethe same old things. And you know,
it's been I think that the waveof the UFO wave has been exceptionally
high and long lasting, and it'sbeen very successful over the last few years.
And with that has come all kindsof narratives and individuals and claims and

(27:23):
stories that involve massive amounts of words, essentially lots lots of stuff told which
isn't really backed up with evidence,and there's so much minutia there in the
narrative of these stories over the lastfew years that it can be easy to
get wrapped up in the details thatwe don't really even have yet alone the

(27:48):
very few details that we do havethat don't seem to correspond to the stories
as often as they seem to contradictthem, and it can be a little
overwhelming, I think, for mostof us to try and stay on top
of these narratives as fast as theycome, and with as much as many
people supporting them and making comments aboutthem and saying things to promote them and

(28:11):
convince us of their validity, itcan be really easy to just get bogged
down into that all the time,and not really directing your research but almost
having it directed for you by what'shappening at the moment, what people are
creating to put in front of youat the moment. And Jeff Breward recently
did a great post on this thatyou know, it can be very,

(28:34):
like I said, easy to getto get wrapped up into a massive amount
of stuff that's going on with thesecases instead of just picking things to really
deep, you know, deep diveand focus on specific issues, elements,
narratives, and it's really important,I think to highlight that, and it's
really like a lot of good advice. I think it's it's easier said than

(28:56):
put into practice. I know myself, I've been feeling kind of burned out
and overwhelmed. And you know,once the like magic of the mystery and
the possibility that the aliens are realand we may get these ships, like
once that's gone, essentially you're justkind of like sifting through the facts of
things and it can be kind ofbecome tiring, real easy, and I've

(29:21):
tried to direct my energies into thingsspecifically that I really want to create now,
you know, get knowledgeable about orfill in gaps of knowledge. Instead
of trying to assess everything that's goingon in the moment and be a current
events guy that you know, cantalk about whatever's happening in the now.
I'm really, you know, moreinterested in the history. I think that's

(29:45):
really why I got involved in thetopic. As you touched on, I
did have a sighting as a kid, you know, around twelve years old.
I saw a black classic black trianglefloating about one hundred feet above the
ground. You know, at leasttoday, I believe that I saw that
and memories fallible, and who knowswhat the real truth is. I have
no evidence or proof of this,but I just bring it up to kind

(30:07):
of let people understand how I becameinvolved in the topic, and that I
haven't. You know, it wasn'talways a crusty, skeptic curmudgeon, but
I was once, you know,for years, really deep and entertained by
and mystified by the stories that weall have heard so often, and knowing
love and the promises that have comealong over the years. But really,

(30:30):
I think I came here to tryand get a better grasp on what the
real facts are, right and thatincludes you know, history and what we
can find out today. And ofcourse this topic intersects with you know,
the intelligence community and the government andjust classified material so heavily that it's really
hard to understand what's going on todayin the moment. Contemporarily, it's it's

(30:56):
a little easier to try and geta grasp on what was going on in
past years and decades, just becausemore information is more available, classifications have
lifted, We've gotten a better understandingof the contexts around the situation, you
know, to try and get agauge on exactly what people like Lewis Alisando
or Chris Mellen or David grutch arereally up to you, aside from taking

(31:22):
their word for it all the time, you know, it's really hard to
assess in the day what's going onwith them. But we have many people,
many characters, stories and narratives thatmirror these individuals, and these stories
that we are hearing today, andthe narratives that are going on, and
the calls and promotions and the advocacyfor UFO Truth and disclosure. There's been

(31:42):
many, many instances of this happeningin the past. This is a cycle
that happens repetitively, and we cancertainly get a much better understanding of those
past instances and those past characters withverifiable information right and often times again those
those pictures that we get with verytot viable information don't match what anyone was

(32:07):
telling us was the case back then, what was going on, what many
people believed was going on. Soagain, I think the history is really
why I came here to try andget an understanding of and I think I
got a little sidetracked in just youknow, eventually joining UFO Twitter and just
trying to you know, be ontop of the things that are happening,

(32:29):
the current events, to try andbe knowledgeable about them. And you know,
I enjoy that, don't get mewrong, but it's certainly taken me
away from some of the hard historicalresearch that I've wanted to do. And
more importantly, it's just kind oflike it's easy because it's so entertaining no
matter what side of this year on, whether skeptic or believer, it's really

(32:49):
easy to just kind of get spent, you know, wrapped up in spending
time just absorbing content from content creators, because that's essentially what this topic is
a collection of UFO content creators.Some are very well known, some are
lesser known, but that's essentially allanyone's doing, creating content for people to
click on and to watch and tobe entertained by and to make money.

(33:13):
Right. So yeah, I've havebeen watching the current events obviously going on
with David Gretchen stuff and the mommies. Uh, And we can we can
get into that. We can talkabout that stuff if you want. But
I also wanted to touch on someother things again, some more historical things

(33:34):
that I found important. If that'sokay with you absolutely? First off,
can I just say real quickly thathow you say his name? Have I
been saying his name as everyone's beensaying his name wrong this entire time?
How do you say it? Isay crutch. I don't know. I
don't know if that's a correct way. I don't I really don't know.
Okay, Well, I was justfor grouch. That's offensive. What do

(33:59):
you call Dave David Garuski? Uh? No, that there's work, there's
a there's a bunch of good uhareas that in the past you can start
I was talking about start like havingpeople go towards Brewer's blog and look at
his last post about uh strand thatwell, who I forget, I'm losing

(34:21):
it right now. But it's justyou can literally see there are parts of
the past that are so highlighted andso detailed by people's work uh that that
there's enough to go off for likemonths and months of you could when you
could research it for years obviously,and it and it does not require debate
on Twitter. It doesn't feel likeyou're standing in front of the ocean with
a shovel and like trying to shovelwater back in because there's nothing you can

(34:43):
do and nothing I can do tocombat the amount of misinformation or at least
the people that are winning those invisiblepoints on the Internet eventual and eventual dollars
by putting out that fake content inthose and the nonsensical claims and obviously promoting
things like the mummies from Mexico thathave eggs in the belly of a cyborg
llama animal being uh, you know, it's it's it's crazy, and but

(35:08):
it does get draining to people thatare interested in trying to do that.
And I feel myself constantly, butI'm like, I think I'm gonna find
a kind of topic that runs adjacentto this one. But then I do
read something like Wayward Suns again orjust just pick it up and start reading.
I'm like, oh, there's thereis this always, there's like the
actual story and you can assist researchingit. It's it's out there. It's

(35:29):
to be found, you know,to be found and uh and anyway,
so yeah, so speaking of goingto the past, I know it's on
your Twitter page. You had recentlyshared that interview with man. Of course
I just closed it. You wouldshare the interview with What's the woman's name
of the former airman's name. Ijust I forget some Memendez. Now,

(35:52):
this molemendous story is quite interesting fora lot of people that I have never
heard of it. Can you wantto give them a little background Steve on
that story? Yeah, sure.Simon Mendez worked in uh Nellis Area fifty
one in the eighties and she hasa story that is very much reminiscent of

(36:13):
the Paul Benowitz Richard Doughty affair.You know, A long story short and
I can get into the details.But she received she was shown on her
you know, in the course ofher job, she was shown by someone
she works with, a document thatwas allegedly top secret that total of a

(36:34):
UFO event on Earth that happened inboth the United States and Russia. Basically
a UFO coming here and observing theEarth and they caught it on radar and
blah blah blah. And she wasshown this by, you know, by
a co worker, and then veryvery quickly she was take you know,
a FOSI, you know, theinvestigatory arm of the base got involved this,

(37:00):
you know, essentially wanted to knowwho should show the document too,
and blah blah, blah. Andagain there's very many parallels to the Paul
Benewood's case that that happened with somemomendous uh mendous case. And I'd be
happy to you know, get intothe details of it. But it's you
know, Doti and benewit's this issomething that people are very very familiar with,

(37:20):
and you know, many people talkabout it and cite it. But
then on the same hand, atthe same time, they have no problem
you know, taking to heart andputting faith in unsubstantiated claims and stories from
intelligence community members today, right,and also from Richard Dodi himself. You

(37:42):
know, he's become another uh,he's become a UFO celebrity again. You
know, every so often he kindof like comes back and has this has
a second third and nine lives andpeople people really cater to him, and
you know, he has this likeUFO stark quality and people whether or not
they you know, believe everything thathe says or not. It's kind of

(38:06):
like the dirty pleasure of the UFOcommunity, you know, the ultimate what's
real, what's not RPG. Fora lot of people in the UFO community,
people like Richard Doughty, it's likea guilty pleasure. And again I
bring him up in Paul Benowitz justagain to make notes about the similarities to
the Simone Mendez case. Just toBridgett, Sorry not to cut you off

(38:34):
important. You know, people seemto be very aware of the Benowitz Doughty
affair. And again, a lotof the information that we have on that
is anecdotal and it comes from RichardDoughty himself. So we need to approach
a lot of that case and theinformation in it, I think with trepidation
and skepticism, but certainly, uh, they're people should recognize the disconnect between

(38:58):
taking that story, hearing it,accepting it, taking it to heart and
as a lesson, but then takingin information from intelligence community members as if
what they're saying can't possibly be anythingbut the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth. Youknow. Yeah, there's also you know,
not to get I'm gonna play Devil'sadvocate for advocate for a second year.

(39:19):
It's like it's like, you know, we're not going to take Rick
Rick Dodi's word for it. We'regoing to ask the Air Force if they
sanctioned his behavior. Do you thinkbased off of the actions in the past
of all military branches and the igficeoffices and the branches themselves are going to
stand up and say, yes,we sent this guy off into the public

(39:39):
to go mess with, to gomess with this guy, and we sanctioned
this whole entire thing. So there'slike this kind of again. You know,
you've gotta have to fill in theblank to some degree, because you
know, Doughty's gonna say, oh, yes, this was this large,
top down thing. They sanctioned meto go up there and spread this word.
I've been doing it for still workingand it's like, you know,

(40:00):
how do you how do you disproveit? Well, you never can because
there's no way too. And ifyou take the Air Force's word, it
promotes the conspiracy that they're not beingclear clear on what they're actually doing,
and it's it doesn't make any sense. And when it comes to actually trying
to apply a logical solution to what'shappening in the small Mendez case, I'd

(40:22):
rather just jump into that real quick. Anyways, before my ramblings that are
over, She's this poor woman,No I shouldn't say poor woman, but
hearing how hearing her speak, Firstoff, she was completely unprepared to not
be like, if someone influenced her, they could do it basically without even

(40:43):
trying. That seemed like okay tosay. I mean, I'm not trying
to be derogatory, but she almostseemed like the most gullible woman on the
planet during reading the transcript. Listento the interview, and then I see
what she comments after the interview.Did you see on the page of her
interview she states, I have autism. I never should have served in the
military. I never would have knownwhat was going on. I can't even
tell the difference when someone's lying tome or not, like you flat out

(41:05):
says it. And here we areseeing a manipulated person like that off in
a way doing what we see today. Sorry, Steve, go ahead,
No, that's great. I'm soglad that you brought that up because I
was going to you know, lthe similarities with Grush, you know,
allegedly being being autistic, right right, And also you know, this is

(41:27):
a claim. This is a claim, that's you know, and as far
as I know, and I couldbe I could be wrong here. I
don't know that that Grush is himselfever said that he has autism. You
know, This was something that wasfirst alleged by Ross Coulthart, you know,
and this is a pattern something thatwe've seen before. For instance,

(41:49):
Gary Nolan, he allegedly allegedly hasautism, and also Eric Davis it's been
alleged again not by him but byUFO influencers and promoters that he has autism.
And that's just again something that weshould take note of, right because

(42:09):
if and we don't know what thefull truth is, but there is the
possibility that some people are being targeted, right for use of information or deception
or counter intelligence or whatever, buteven just the possibility that people could be
mistaken, right, and people couldbe gullible and credulous, which is a

(42:32):
human trait, right, We allhave these traits. We're not impervious to
gullibility or credulousness. We all havemoments where we can certainly be prone to
that, but some people more thanothers, right, and all kinds of
factors can factor into that and someMomentez absolutely was someone who's very open about

(42:53):
the fact that even when you youknow, listen to her speak today,
she's very very plain, very simple, very open, very direct, and
she was very clear to the pointthat you know, this was a girl,
that a woman, you know,that joined the military right out of

(43:14):
home, right out of her parentshouse, you know, right out of
yeah, right, And you know, I can only think back to myself
at that time, right, LikeI mean, you're only just like coming
online at like at that age,Like I'm I'm approaching forty, and I
feel like I'm almost just starting toget a handle on like understanding myself and

(43:35):
my faults and like my gullibilities andcredit and like get alone at that age,
like you don't even like hardly,I feel like no much about the
world or people to have a highlevel of discernment, right, I don't
think it's it's hard for people tounderstand the eighteen year olds don't have most
I understand that some fifteen year oldsgraduate from Harvard and stuff, but just

(43:58):
generally speaking, you know, theydon't have the best discernment, right,
So it would it wouldn't take alot for someone like her to to be
steered or to be taken advantage of. And she you know, she's very
plain about that fact. Absolutely.Yeah, her story is quite interesting.
It's uh, she talks about thisother airman Green who passes along this document

(44:22):
to her, and she even givesa little bit about his background and how
you know he couldn't you know,he didn't seem likely to be to be
the originator of the document because ofwhere he was from or whatnot, or
what he seemed like. But thestory just at its core, if he
would just to hear just the basics, is of course that Steve put it.
I mean, someone in this positionsuddenly receives a false document about something
that it looks very legitimate, andshe she's confused about it. She look,

(44:45):
it passes kind of the smell test, so she brings it to her
superior and we that's almost exactly whattook place just recently. Well oh right,
you know, almost two years agoor a year and a half ago
now, so with with Grush init, you know, in certain in
today context, that to me isincredible. You know, I don't want
to circle back on that again,but to me, just the essence,

(45:06):
it's not just her, it's theseare the first examples we brought up.
But you know, what, whatwhat what do you? What do you?
I don't want to ask what youthink necessarily, but your opinion,
I guess a little bit if youcould, Steve, if you want to
on on just that what she claims, like the document originates from this other
airman who doesn't seem like he wouldever produce something so sophisticated looking as a

(45:30):
hoax, and it coming out ofnowhere, like what does why would what
does that even mean? Why wouldthe public even care about that information?
Right? And again, just likethe Benewits affair, it's it's hard to
know exactly, you know, whatthe truth is and what happened, because
a lot of what we're going offof is the you know, anecdotal memories

(45:51):
of Simoe Mendez herself, and wehave she has along with the help of
Barry Greenwood, you know, theperennial UFO investigator, Barry Greenwood. They
did, uh in the I believein nineteen ninety one, you know,
file for you and the government toget her service records, and they did,

(46:13):
and he, Barry Greenwood, wasthe first to bring this story out
in his newsletter, you know,just cause in nineteen ninety one. And
again, a lot of it isher recollections and she is very plain in
the fact that she doesn't really knowwhat the truth is about a lot of
this stuff. So just to letpeople get a kind of an idea of

(46:36):
what the story is about, right, because I'm sure most people don't really
know what this Mendez case is about. But like I said, she worked
in Area fifty one, and essentiallyshe was, I guess we'll say,
like an intelligence analyst of some kind, uh, you know, on the
lower level scale. And she workedat at a place where someone came to

(47:00):
her at one point, someone shecalls airman Green and they had essentially a
print out, a computer print outthat had been ripped from uh, you
know, the printers, and it'ssaid, you know, top secret,
you know, blah blah blah.But essentially it was a report about a
UFO being detected by It didn't sayNORAD, she said it said the Colorado

(47:24):
Data Collection Center or something like that. But essentially it was saying that a
UFO had been detected by radar comingin at a very high mock number or
something like twenty six or something,and then went and uh hovered over Moscow,
I believe, Moscow Airport for aboutan hour. And this was all

(47:45):
detected and monitored by the US forces. And this was something that an airman
came and showed showed her and thiswas in nineteen eighty one, and he
apparently was very he was I thinkshe said he was sweating and he was
just very emotionally upset. I guessabout what he was seeing. And he

(48:07):
came to share it with her becausethey had, you know, become friends,
and I think they had even talkedmaybe about having any interest in UFOs
or you know, and she's veryopen about the fact that she had an
interest in UFOs essentially since childhood.And she looked at, you know,
the document and he basically gave itto her and said, you know,

(48:28):
just just take this and burn it. Just don't show anybody to it,
just burn it. And she didn'tdo that. Apparently she kept she kept
this piece of paper, but shedidn't show it to anybody. And then
I forget maybe some you know,days or weeks later. Uh. This
this guy who had shown her thisreport his girlfriend that he had lived with

(48:50):
on the base, who was acivilian, she was not in the service.
Apparently they had a falling out,and I guess he had shown this
document to the woman. So smoneMendez alleges, Uh, and suddenly that
woman you know, came to herdoorstep because they had you know, known
each other through the mutual boyfriend whowas a friend of Simone mendezz and she

(49:10):
basically uh and smone you know,in her recounting of it, again being
a very timid and impressionable, youknow, young woman of nineteen or twenty,
you know, this woman was alittle older, and she basically told
her like, look, you know, you're you're gonna come down to the
base with me, and you know, we're gonna straighten this out. We're

(49:31):
gonna tell them what happened. Oncea moment, Mendez you know, followed
her down, she you know,went down, and essentially that started what
became a seven month investigation into SimoneMendez essentially, you know, and they
wanted to know, you know,essentially you know, who she had shown
the information to, who she hadgiven it to. And this became something
that was very stressful for her.Obviously she was going through it alone,

(49:57):
you know, being a woman thathad moved away from home, she didn't
have many people close to her,and it got to the point where she
had had, you know, anemotional breakdown of you know, some kind
and was even hospitalized. And again, very many parallels to the Richard Dodie
Benewit's story here, and eventually shewas cleared by the AFOSI of any type

(50:24):
of you know, wrongdoings, butthey did continue to monitor her, monitor
her for years. She continued towork at her job. She was downgraded
to a job that didn't require anytype of security clearance after her investigation,
or actually immediately upon you know themstarting an investigation on her, she was

(50:45):
downgraded to a less secure facility typeof job. She was still working at
Nellis and she stayed there through theeighties, almost for the eight year period,
and was in this eventually given youknow, a full discharge. But
she did have instances where a FOSIwould continue to keep you know, keep

(51:07):
up with her, and she becameyou know, friendly with people inside of
MUFON UFO investigators, one of whichtook her to a MOUFON conference in nineteen
eighty seven in Washington, DC,where Bill Moore displayed the m J twelve
papers for the first time. Againa very similar situation to what you know

(51:31):
Mendez herself went through. I don'tknow how familiar people are with the MJ
twelve documents. You know, they'dbeen pretty well shown to be false documents,
not not real, but there wasa time in the nineteen eighties where
multiple researchers were given these documents,these allegedly valid documents that proved the UFO

(51:52):
cover up going back decades and eventually, uh, you know, Stan Friedman
kind of took the him up ashis cause and he was very resistant to
any type of skeptical assessment of thosethroughout his career. But the MJ twelve
documents were a big part of UFOculture and lore in the nineteen eighties.

(52:15):
And it's again, we don't knowwhat the truth is behind Simone Mendez story,
but there are many parallels to UFOculture at the time, things that
were going on at the time.And you know, she admits herself she
really doesn't know the man Aarmon Green, that gave her the document. She
assumes that, you know, hewas on the up and up. And

(52:37):
as far as the woman's civilian worker, his girlfriend that came and essentially escorted
Simone Mendez to a FOSI to admitthat she had this document and that her
boyfriend had given it to her.You know, she she doesn't know what
that woman's job was, but shesaid she wasn't in the service, and

(52:58):
she just feels like that woman wasdoing, like whatever her civic duty,
just knowing that a possible top secretdocument, whether a hoax or not,
maybe being passed around. So it'sreally hard to tell exactly what was going
on initially when this document first foundits way to Simone Mendez. But what's

(53:20):
certainly less hazy and more substantiated isthe fact that AFLSI continued to interact with
her and even at one point hadinvited her to join join their ranks essentially,
or at least that was the impressionthat she had, and when she
went there to essentially start the process, she was essentially just told, you

(53:43):
know, if you're someone who feelslike he'd be interested in working with us
and keeping in touch, let usknow. And that was something that you
know, I guess she had approvedand said yes too, and they did
continue to do that, but shedidn't feel that they really ever took advantage
of that as since you know,she mentions the time that she went to
the Moufon case in Washington, DC, the Moufon Convention of nineteen eighty seven,

(54:08):
where Bill Moore displayed the MJ twelvedocuments, and she had told her,
you know, liaison in the thatshe was going to this and that
she was attending it with a statedirector from Moufon and she said, you
know, the guy said, oh, that's neat. You know, maybe
you can get me a report onthat when you get back, and she

(54:29):
you know, later realized that,you know, he never even brought it
up again. There was never areport, and it was just kind of
one of those things that she hadlikened to when someone says, yeah,
I'll call you tonight and then theyyou know, never do and they never
had any plans on doing that really. But again, a lot of it
is seen just through the eyes ofSumone Mendez and her memory and the way
that she interpreted things not only thenbut now years later. So it is,

(54:53):
just like most things in the topic, very anecdotal and hazy and hard
to understand what the true motives were. But it's an interesting case just to
possibly try and find more information onthe Probably the best coverage that's been done
on it so far was by JackBrewer in his book Degrees Have Been Framed,

(55:16):
and there's been some interviews that she'sdone over the years, and also
Gary Barry Greenwood, like I saidfirst presented this case in his newsletter of
the Just Cause in nineteen ninety one, and I've liked all those things on
my Twitter, you can find them. But that's something a case that I'd
like to dive into a little more, especially a lot of those older cases,

(55:40):
you know, to me, likeI guess, when I think about
in nineteen eighty one, doesn't seemlike all that long ago, although it's
like a few years before I wasborn, but like it's long enough that
like by now, certainly some peopleare starting to reach the age where they
may face illnesses and sicknesses and evenyou know, death. So it's just

(56:01):
one of the things that I wantto try and pull up more information and
donate hopefully more of an understanding tooas time goes on, and we'll see,
we'll see what happens. But Ithink it's important for people to really
look at these cases, and includingDoughties and Benowitz, and really understand what

(56:22):
they mean. That you know,the fun version of of oh this is
you know wild and happened you knowit happened just like this, or you
know, did it happen, didit did it not happen? But to
understand that you know, these possibilitiesare out there. It's very possible that,
you know, there was a topdown conspiracy involved in the Benowitz case,

(56:44):
right, There's very possible that DODIwas doing a lot of it on
his own, you know, justone of the many things that will not
get clarity on. But what's muchmore clear is that there are instances where
intelligence community members are disinforming the UFOcommunity and exploiting the UFO narratives for whatever

(57:05):
goals they have, right, Andalthough we may not have clarity on what
those goals and intentions are, wecertainly can understand that those situations can happen
and we should remember them when wehave people like Lewis Alizondo and Christopher Mellan
and David Grutch and all these peoplewho are presenting us with much unsubstantiated information,

(57:28):
just like was done to Benowitz andother people. Yeah, even earlier
that well said man. One ofthe things I want to you know,
I constantly like to try to lookat like multiple perspectives at once. And
what would even be the purpose ofasking her to go to a Moufon event
and take notes, if you will, I write a report, And I

(57:49):
do think like have you considered,like what it would be like to send
you know, whatever her job actuallywas. I know, she's like crypto
intelligence analysts whatever actually she was talkingabout her reaction to the MJ twelve story
would have been an interesting, youknow, part to monitor as in the
type of influence that would take placeand uh and what would radiate from her

(58:14):
after interpreting the MJ twelve you know, debut to the world and so like
you, you essentially have a fosibeing able to see from multiple perspectives now
even from inside someone working with ayou know, her clearance at that at
that point was gone, right,but it was she was still basically working
a job as an analyst and acivilian tent or a building no longer in

(58:36):
the in the officers one or theairman one. But I kind of thinking
like that. Once you said thatpart, I thought, Wow, what
a great what a great little gameto play. You have like this community
to constantly use too as a mediumto accomplish a goal, be it personal
or professional. You can affect changewith ethology. People. People dismissed the

(58:58):
idea of this influencers up. Idon't I don't dismiss it, but This
sounds like a perfect example of it, just another case of basically, uh,
even if Airman Green, that's whatthe story ends, right, because
we don't know who Aermin Green infact got the actual document from. Right,
we don't know where this person receivedthis document, right, That's what
it ends with that, No,And so it's image, Yeah, I

(59:27):
don't know, when I think aboutit, I feel like I really have
a hard time believing that that wasreally a document that Aerman Green pulled off
the printer and secreted away, thathe found unintentionally. I just I just
have a hard time both believing thatmyself, you know. Yeah. And
there's also the fact that forgeries takeplace in all aspects of any legitimate part

(59:52):
of the world. So I meanthe government documents are no different. I
mean there's been people that have beenforging government documents and credentials forever. For
christ people put on uniforms to walkaround and talk about being you know whatever
valor what is it called stolen valorall the time, so they'll work their
way up to forging documents. Andthat could that could have been the case

(01:00:12):
with a lot of it, andhe could have been the original I mean,
we could add all this onto itlike an intelligence conspiracy, And technically
it would be right because Green couldbe originating or would be the creator of
it. But it could just bewith Green. It could just be a
guy that made it because he canmake documents or knows how to make them,

(01:00:34):
and was like, let's see howshe reacts to this. Do you
think it? What do you Yourgut tells you like, might probably right
that it's more than that, becauseof all of the cases we can point
to anecdotally and say, I lookat how many times in history where something
so similar as taking place. Itdoesn't really require magic to believe in it
either. And it's yeah, Imean, I it's certainly a possibility.

(01:00:58):
It's certainly a possibility that this wasa hoaxed document that the guy you know
made up on his own. Again, I don't I don't, you know,
we just don't know. It wouldbe nice to to to know that.
But all the possibilities are open,right, But like, certainly the
least possibility is that the document wasgenuine and that there was an actual UFO

(01:01:23):
event that was recorded by and youknow, like it's that just seems like
the least likely event, right,And that this guy stumbled upon it and
then printed it out. Yeah,and the stumble upon the document thing is
a trend in ufology though, Imean, or to to be like,

(01:01:45):
you're dozing off and someone gives itto you, Hey a board, look
at this's like and it's been claimed. But so many, so many aspects
of the new this mail even thoughyou already got your mail, and this
time it's a package from no fromno one, and or government documents that
type of thing. I just almosthave, I almost have an impossible time

(01:02:07):
at some point believing that there's onelittle unit responsible for all of these things.
But at the same time, generationaltactics that you know, what's work,
what works, don't change it.I don't know. Yeah, yeah,
you know, documents showing up inthe national archives and stuff. Yeah,

(01:02:27):
it's just again, it's it's that'swhy these things are so juicy,
right, because is it is ita top down government conspiracy that really is
a finely tuned, extra liquid opento new ideas UFO conspiracy, you know,
or is a lot of this justkind of individuals doing things that they're

(01:02:52):
doing for their own purposes and reasons, you know, And a lot of
times just it's just too hard totell. I did want to address one
thing. There was a question inyour chat from Bill Reddin about Richard Doughty
and if he had, you know, retired or was forced to retire just
after the Dodi Benewit's affair, andI just want to touch on that real

(01:03:14):
quick, and I don't you canshow them if you want. I just
posted some of on Twitter. Ijust sent you some of his service records
that were released via FOIA, andyou know, you can follow kind of
what happened to him there in thoseservice in those service records, and it

(01:03:37):
does show that he ended up essentiallyat the end of his career after the
Benewit's affair in food services, sohe ended up kind of with essentially a
demotion and he left as soon asessentially as soon as he could retire,
he did, and he ended upgoing to work for the the new Mexican

(01:04:00):
co State Police for and you know, a whole other second career essentially.
But it's certainly sorry I can't pullhim up, Steve, because they're in
some sort of weird format because Idownload him from Twitter. Sorry, I
will leave them on the bottom ofthe show, though. After for everyone
to see. Uh, it doesshow he was actually on McCord Air Force

(01:04:23):
Base, which I did not know. I lived out there for a while.
My wigs fallen off, So he's, yeah, he's been he's the
conspiracy folks instantly say, listen,hey, wouldn't you make it look like
he got reprimmended as being some rogueactor rather than you know? And then

(01:04:43):
I say, well, that's agood. It's a good you know,
beyond guard to think that's a possibility. But I go with what's more likely.
And I also feel like he probablywouldn't be, uh, you know,
an ultimate player in the game,due to his early behavior. I'm
not sure if everyone's aware. Ifyou, if you kind of study close

(01:05:05):
of what Doughty was up to,he wasn't necessarily he was like me.
He like misspelled things all the time, and he like put things out there
that people knew were forgeries and fakesand like, and they weren't coming from
him. There becomes some shadowy figure, of course, But I don't think
Doughty was the ultimate player in thisgame, and I don't think Alexander was
either. So I don't know.I have this, I have my real
suspicions with Doughty if he was everactually sanctioned to do anything other than just

(01:05:27):
go investigate someone before he recognized whatan opportunity. I have a whole market
in front of me. I couldjust go say things and they believe me.
I don't know, No, Iand I I mean, I couldn't
agree more. But and it's it'shard to tell, you know, because
you look at uh at Doughty andthe you know, the things that he's
done and his involvement in the theSerpo hoax and stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

(01:05:53):
it makes you think about, youknow, his time and exactly how
much you know, was sanctioned andexactly who else was involved if if it
really anybody really was you know,planning this with him and approving this,
you know, with him, orif he just kind of had a lot
of latitude to do these things.And you know, especially when I think
about things like Lynda Malton Hall beingyou know, brought onto the Air Force

(01:06:15):
base and being shown documents and stufflike, is that something that could happen
but just Doughty on his own,you know? Oh yeah, definitely,
yeah no. And I've heard andI've absolutely heard that from other people you
know, former service members, Andyeah, same thing with you know,
the doctor documents and stuff like couldcould he have forged them? Like sure,

(01:06:39):
he has access to government documents,he can certainly doctor them and make
new ones that look kind of legit. Right, So there certainly is something
to be said for the fact thatright now we can't certainly just prove that
that Doughty was doing much of thison his on his own, right,
right. Yeah. I just Ijust recall when I was younger, people

(01:07:01):
that really looked into every word thatever came out as alleged leak or truth
about some event out there, likethe one you just brought up, and
Lord Lucas mentioned and of course andwe see the moment it seems that Bill
Moore started becoming like today's Corbelle,you know, just the one or the
crew that was getting this cool stuffin these stories. The language changes,

(01:07:24):
the things become more accurate and detailed, and are actually edited in a way
that seems like a professional put themtogether. And I think that's telling when
someone links up with an author andthen suddenly the words on page become clear
and concise and and whatever. Imean, that's that's that seems without a
question and anyways. But he's aninteresting character that we should all look into,

(01:07:45):
so we don't forget, that's forsure. And there's so much there's
so much about him that is yetto be even spoken about today, because
all we've ever really had is Doughty'swords and a few others that dared to
look into it. I'm sorry,real quick before I before we keep going
here, I just want to say, calm, thank you for the super
chatman. I don't mean to forgetyou. I want to say thank you

(01:08:05):
very much. I will ask youa question at the end of the show.
I'm not really sure Steve will havea reference for maybe not. I'm
interested in what you're asking. Idon't even know. But thank you very
much for storting the show, myman, Thank you. I appreciate it
all the way from Germany, Ibelieve. All right, Steve, where
are we at with them? Withwhere you are in history? Like we

(01:08:28):
talked a little bit about Mendez,of course, and there's other things.
Of course I would like to askyou about that, if that's okay,
real quick, but you know,like, where is your mind at currently?
What was the last words you leftoff on the page and what you're
studying in the history of uthology.Oh man, uh yeah, I don't
know. That's a good question.But you know, you were talking about

(01:08:51):
Bill Moore and sorry, no,no, Like Bill Moore is one of
the ultimate UFO figures in my mind, right, He's had so much influence
on the UFO culture today. Right, not and and certainly in his time,

(01:09:13):
but those those you know, thosethat lure and those narratives and the
information that you know came out throughhim essentially and he was involved in have
really gone on to shape the theUFO culture that we have today. And
a lot of what we're seeing isjust a rep a repeat of the more

(01:09:33):
you know brand almost you know,Bill Moore, It's funny if you look
at his his history and his career. You know, he started he started
out with h. Charles Burlitz,you know who wrote wrote the book on
the Bermuda Triangle, right, andalso the Philadelphia Experiment, right, and

(01:09:58):
then they went on to right thefirst book about Roswell, and that alone
it just makes you know, makesthem you know, huge in the mythos
of the community. Yeah, andand to just you know, let's just
think about that for the the peoplethat first brought us the Roswell story,
also brought us the Bermuda triangle first, and the Philadelphia experiment. Like,

(01:10:27):
let's just let that sink in.But it's it's really interesting just to you
know, for me, because BillMoore, he you know, he came
out in nineteen eighty nine and youknow, very publicly in the move On
conference that year in Las Vegas.You know, he kind of came clean
essentially and said that he had,you know, for the last decade almost

(01:10:51):
while being one of the most popularand cited and respected UFO researchers, he
had been essentially working hand in handwith the intelligence community where they would provide
him with information that may or maynot be true, and he would provide

(01:11:12):
them with, you know, informationon the UFO community essentially, or you
know, essentially. I think inmy mind, the real service that he
was providing for them was filtering theinformation that they gave him into the UFO
community. Right, Can I canI pause you there for a second,
Seve I'm sorry to interrupt your flow, but please go ahead that that that
no, if you, if you, if for anyone who is annoyed for

(01:11:35):
why we talk about this constantly isbecause that right there is the essence of
what we the parallels we see fromtoday and a lot of a lot of
people out there, and they've admittedit, no different. They've talked almost
specifically about getting leaked information in exchangefor essentially helping the process or whatever,

(01:11:57):
you know, getting getting disclosure movingand getting the whole ball rolling, which
so far seems to be money goinginto UAP companies. But you know,
just that one little part I thinkabout constantly, and that and that he
stands up and admits that. Butyet the lessons were never learned. Maybe
they just waited long enough. Andthe mythos that kind of he echoed throughout

(01:12:20):
ufology with his work still are aroundtoday and ultimately kind of a lot of
a lot of famous a lot ofbig narratives are based off of them.
Not really that different after all.I mean, mysterious beings from under the
ocean that are messing with navy shipsthat can just disappear, and you know,
I don't know, all right,there's you know, it's it's this

(01:12:43):
constant. It's almost like we couldpredict it exactly what it's going to happen
next if we really tried, right, now. I mean we really would
be like, next major conflict ortechnology that is disruptive is probably going to
have some sort of oh whatever.Anyway, Steve ahead before Ramblan in one
of my weirdo rants. Man,I come for those rants. No,

(01:13:05):
you don't come from Yeah. BillMoore was uh at that time, certainly
the most successful you know, stufflike when when we talk about this topic,
there's always the talk about psy ops, right, and the government psy
ops and stuff and I and thatgets really blown out of proportion, right

(01:13:29):
when we have these real instances ofgovernment psyop you know, is nish psyopnishness,
you know what I'm like, andget it right, and and it's
very you know, as much asBill Moore's admission in nineteen eighty nine was
certainly uh, I would say,a limited hang out on his part,

(01:13:51):
and was him kind of trying toI think, get ahead of anything that
was going to come out that hecouldn't control. You know, the story
was probably going to come out oneway or another. I think that him
bringing it out was probably the waythat he was going to control it.
But also like it was very sensational, you know, caused a big stir
and It's not like Bill Moore slinkedaway out of the UFO topic after he

(01:14:14):
came clean. He stuck around fora good number of years, you know,
almost ten years really, until hefinally walked away from the topic for
good. But again, the crystaliststhat I'm like trying to point out is
and that you rang home so well, is that here was a guy who
was one of the main UFLO influencers, right, and he had contacts in

(01:14:35):
the government, real government contacts whowere giving him information about UFOs, right,
and he was then relaying this informationto the UFO community often you know,
at his own profit, right.And it turned out that he was

(01:14:57):
a knowing, a knowing dupe,right. He was being he was being
used by the intelligence community. Andthere's a real question as to exactly you
know, Bill Moore claims that he, you know, didn't realize that he
was being used. That the kindof the doughty h Benewitz affair, I
think kind of woke him up tothe fact and left a bad taste in

(01:15:18):
his mouth. And these were thethings that led for him to come forward
very publicly. But Bill Moore's very, very intelligent, and I just I
feel that Bill Moore knew that hehad a relationship or relationships with government employees
and figures that were beneficial for him, that we're creating for him all kinds

(01:15:38):
of content and all kinds of reasonfor him to get up every day.
I mean, this was his wholelife. He was very successful in it.
He was very you know, profitablein it, and he was making
a career being a UFO researcher.You know, he didn't have to work
for school teacher salaries anymore and stuff. I think that he saw very beneficial

(01:16:00):
relationship and when he came forward,I think that that was in nineteen eighty
nine a very limited hang out.And I think that although he had a
lot of great advice for the UFOcommunity to recognize that they are gullible,
that they can be duped, thatit has happened before, and that it

(01:16:24):
will happen again if we're not careful, and that message was largely not taken
to heart. He was kind ofpanned as a guy that had, you
know, stabbed the UFO community inthe back and went to the dark side,
and the lessons were just kind ofwritten off as like, you know,
this this guy was just you know, an outlier, and and and

(01:16:45):
none of the real lessons that shouldhave been learned were, you know,
because then people would have to threatentheir own incomes and their own ego projects
and the things that they were youknow, putting out. You know,
no truth can really be had whenyour entire business model relies on the mystery
being the mystery, right. ButBillmore's Bill Moore's really interesting for me just

(01:17:12):
just to try and get a graspon exactly where his interactions with the intelligence
community began. You know, hispartners like Charles Burlitz and Jamie Shindera are
really like shadowy interesting figures to me. And again, these people have had
such influence on what the UFO topicbecame and what it is today that there's

(01:17:39):
there's just I think so much unwritten, unrealized, unsubstantiated history there that I
really like to dive into more.And I really do plan on on doing
that. Again, these guys aren'tgoing to be around forever, and people
that were around back then and youknow, we're researching UFOs, we're in
the UFO topic back then. Youknow, I'm not gonna be around forever,

(01:18:00):
and I think we need to tryand take everything, all the information
that we can from then why wecan Yeah, that's well so certainly because
there's only a few left, Imean, other than the people that actually
came up with these rumors themselves.Only if you left, so we'll be
right back to asking the same peoplethat have been spreading the bulls stuff.

(01:18:24):
Oh, I caught myself recont Ididn't swear spreading the bull stuff, which
is of course famous an ingredient andneuthology. Anyways. You know, this
is another case though, of willWilliam Moore Bill Moore, the winning twice
you know, as you said,he continued to work for a time after

(01:18:45):
and but he continued to lecture onupology circuits. I mean, he continued
to show up to events and peopleattended his conversations that kind of you know,
I can't remember how you worded earlierabout dot in him returning very similar
in the sense that, like,you know, it was almost like I
can't remember how you said it,but it was great. It was like
almost like a sin of like euthology, like to continue knowing that, Oh,

(01:19:06):
it just so feels good to listento his stories, but it's dirty
pleasure. Having said that about aboutthis person I know. I notice again
though, another individual that will winor I'm sorry, like like more.
We have a series of individuals thatwill win no matter what they've done,

(01:19:28):
because the context in which they've deliveredbasically everything they can land. You know,
I was just reporting what I wastold and what they gave me,
that type of thing. And thenthere's, of course, you know,
what they've achieved, regardless of ifthey found if they if they're found to
be misleading the public later on,they've already affected National Defense Authorization Act and
maybe even Schumer's Amendment in there to. I don't get into the MC or

(01:19:49):
whatever, but there is, youknow, there's that, there's that winning
irregardless of what happens in uthology.You can talk of both sides your mouths.
You can say, if it's theChinese, I just want to fix
it to whoever whatever political staffer andthe people that you're also possibly getting money
from. Then you can turn aroundlike Moore did and and continue and to

(01:20:11):
continue to provide content to the UFOcommunity, even though he flat out been
fingered by everyone as someone who's manipulatedus and probably has been plenty of manipulated
themselves now absolutely, And I wasgonna say I have that effect on people.

(01:20:36):
There was a comment in the chat, but I wanted to touch on.
No, I can't find it out. Yeah, no, I agree
with you. Who was it fromit? Do you remember? Do you
remember who said it's suspecially as someonewho claims they have chased Trent to Lloyd

(01:21:00):
around area fifty one. I don'tknow if that is Trent alloids. Most
of these ex military GOV people thatmake claims after leaving the service of just
after making a few quid, theyhave a perfect you know India. Yeah,
that's true. I mean they wethere's no I mean, to be
fair, the most likely explanation fora lot of these things, my gut
feeling would be, of course theyare just making a buck off. And
and you know you can't do thatin the infantry. I mean, you

(01:21:23):
can do it to go, youcan go work like a like a you
know, professional military job afterwards.But with the intelligence community use and certainly
from some of these jobs from whereinfluence takes place in the public or whatever,
you have a skill set. Imean, I'll it's it's a little
Liam Neeson less cool, you know, beating people up. But it's it's
you have a skill set and youcan apply it in the civilian world and

(01:21:45):
watch it take effect. My gutfeeling would tell me the vast majority of
people who have ever forged anything arejust from a credential position that we can
say, hey, are they connected? We don't know crap, because now
it's like maybe they were actually bedoing something sanctioned, and that's that's where
it ends. And it always endslike that. There's never this paper trail
anywhere. If there was, we'dall know about it. You know.

(01:22:08):
That's the worst part about the darnthing? Is it? Because Brewer tells
such a good tale with wayward Sons. Not a tale, but you know
what I mean. He tells itreally paints a good picture that it's like,
But does is that the play?Is it just a bunch of people
with a skill set that's like,let's make a buck but also kind of
control the narrative ourselves. I don'tget it because nowadays it doesn't look to

(01:22:29):
me from first glance that it's peopleworking for the government. It looks like
people that are like, I wantmoney for a company that I'm gonna start.
Watch this, I would agree,and I love that you're going here.
I would I would agree with youwhen I look, that's what I
tend to see too. But onceagain, if we look at history and
Jack Brewer and is an excellent bookWayward Sons touches on this a lot.

(01:22:53):
If you look at the intelligence communityin their history and the way that they've
gone about influencing, right, andI use that word in a very wide
spectrum, you know, influencing populations, politics, whatever, you can see
that there's often there's often like acapitalistic element to it, right, And

(01:23:20):
oftentimes operatives are allowed to create theirown avenues for profit, right while they
are fulfilling whatever tasks were asked orrequired of them by the intelligence community.

(01:23:41):
Right And and a lot of times, uh, that's that's how the intelligence
community keeps their shadow up right throughshell companies and legitimate people that allegedly don't
have any connection to the IC ordon't any more whatever. But that you
know, when I look at somebodyyou like lu Elsondo, right, I

(01:24:04):
can certainly say like, well,this is a guy that's at least tried
to profit off of this UAP thingfrom day one. Right, I don't
know how successful he's been at it, but he certainly had some success,
right, he had a History Channeltelevision show, and he had a TTSA

(01:24:25):
you know, stock release, andlike, he's had some success, and
then he's had many more instances wherehe's tried to make money companies that he
started that you know, I don'tknow what's happened to them, but he's
tried to create profit at every junctureof this since he came out in twenty
seventeen, right, And that couldcertainly just end there, But that doesn't

(01:24:48):
mean that he's not also being usedwillingly or you know, without even his
knowledge by you know, someone else, right, And that's why there's just
so many possible abilities here. Butthe bottom line again is like he has
skin in the game, right,He has been trying to profit off of
what he's doing, right, andthat alone doesn't negate the validity or credibility

(01:25:14):
of what he's doing, But weneed to take that into account, right,
And then when we look at everysingle other person from you know,
Ryan Grays to Gary Nolan to RossCoulthard to David Brush to whoever, they
all have skin in the game somehow, right. They're all creating companies that
are vying for government funding, fundingthat's been created by these very UAP legislations,

(01:25:40):
the legislations they've asked and courted UFOTwitter to help promote exacted. But
like who is yelled fire? It'sgood, Steve. I don't mean to
cut you off, but I havesomeone making a ton of noise back here.
Can you hang out with us fora little while longer or take out
like like a five minute break lessthan that, and come right back.
Smoke if you got smoke, we'vegot, We're gonna play some music.

(01:26:02):
We'll come right back. I'm gotto figure out what the werewolf sound is
coming from the kitchen behind that closeddoor behind me, and we'll see if
it's a skin walker. Skin pretty. I'm pretty sure it's Cora in cash.
Ladies and gents will be right back, stick around, don't go anywhere,
Steve, thank you so much,and I apologize for this abrupt cut
here conversation, but right back,freakon, right back, chrees and just

(01:27:06):
saw the color green you n't seeand tell them growing drees strolling bushes on
the little road comes little water comfort, Gentle class of jump machines, get
in them. The study crease standingthe mighty stand with me, I'll come

(01:27:30):
and little wall comfort dree down.At the time, I got a lot
of hours and wow, was aboutthe choking glow seats stops the girl to

(01:28:24):
be super warl see a travel show, Bundy trees and starts to die,
finish, look a metal, Imust be my sheets. We're cleaning the
plea study the cree step with themother, stand with me, we finish,

(01:28:47):
shoe latins holds, and was aboutthe choking blow. Now to the

(01:29:36):
time I know not my mother said, Wow, what's my mother choking blow?

(01:30:04):
All right, recon we are backhere and give her a guest a
second recon. If you haven't yet, make sure hit that like and subscribe.
Yetta yet, I gotta say allthis stuff to make the YouTube thing
go. My freaking wigs coming off, so everyone knows now I wear a
Halloween wig every single day. It'sall fall off at once in front of
you. Sorry, I'm gonna tryto adjust it, trying to look as
much. It's like, can Ilook? Can you give me? I

(01:30:27):
want to look like a state trooperwith a with an addiction problem. Anyways,
Uh, recon Steve's giving us alot to think about do me a
massive favor. Pay some respect tothe guest on there, go follow him
on pay some respect. I don'tknow why something like that, but go

(01:30:47):
pay some respect to Steve on twinter, go over the hit the follow and
if you don't better big all right, I'm the worst. That was the
worst Italian gangster impression I've ever comeup with. That sound of the mix
of Marlon Brando and someone with notongue. All right, Steve, thank

(01:31:11):
you for coming back. I appreciatehanging out with this man for a little
longer here. Yeah, I figuredi'd come back, Steve. While we're
I do want to cover a fewother things while I have you. Did
you notice that that comment in thechat that you wanted to cover down you
wanted to talk about or answer youreal quick while we're on the topic.
You know, of these UAP influencersand promoters, you know, who are

(01:31:38):
you know? And I saw Billmade another great comment in chat saying,
you know, not everybody is tryingto make a buck off futhology. There
are you know, true believers andwitnesses. And that's totally true, you
know, but you know, speakingin terms of people who are really influencing
the topic, bringing us the information, bringing us the claims. You know,
these people all have direct ties toprofit motives, politic motives, lobbying

(01:32:02):
motives that directly benefit them and benefitother people who are working with you know,
Radiance Technologies, which consists of somepeople who work for the UAPTF and
helped promote various UFO narratives, justgot like a billion dollar contract from the

(01:32:23):
US government, you know, directlytied to the exact uap legislation that those
same people influenced US and others tosupport to get past, and they actually
helped write the legislation into law andthey are now profiting from it. And
that's just one company. There's manyof them, Gary Nolan and David Crutch

(01:32:44):
among other people, and are tiedto the Soul Foundation. There's also Enigma
Labs, which Ryan Graves is tiedto, and we you know Enigma Labs,
just to touch on them real quick, is buying again for very lucrative
government contracts having to do with theup legislation and funding that got put into

(01:33:06):
the defense bills. And they helpyou get that funding in there. And
they are essentially a company that wantstaxpayer funding to surveil taxpayer cell phones.
Right. And now this company,Enigma Labs, like I said, Ryan
Grads is part of it. Also, I'm having a mind blank uh UFO

(01:33:30):
promoter guy. There's the FBI guythere. The guy looks like he was
on Buffy the Vampire Slayer from backin the nineties. What was the former
FBI agent Ben Hanson's part of it? Enigma Lab? Yeah, yes,
But anyway, so this company essentiallywould use cell phones to help locate UFOs

(01:33:55):
and further UFO research and many otherthings we can and assume because they're going
to be surveilling the data on yourcell phones and collecting it and we don't
know, you know, they're noteven disclosing things like where they're funding is
coming from, who owns the companyright yet alone what they're actually going to

(01:34:17):
do with your data. Right.And these are just things that really I
bring up to highlight the issues thatare going on surrounding what are on the
surface UFO narratives, right. Andthis is like the minutia that we can
get into when we just talk aboutone person or one UFO claiming or one

(01:34:41):
UFO UAP disclosure company, and it'sjust again very important to highlight these things
because there's all kinds of Although wecan't again clearly substantiate what the alternative motives
are, we certainly can substantiate someof them. And there's any alternative motives
that have nothing to do with bringingout UFO truth or UFO disclosure. Despite

(01:35:05):
all the increased media attention and hypethat we've received since twenty seventeen, and
especially like just in the last twothree years, the congressional attention, the
media attention, UFO information has onlybecome more classified, has only become more
restricted and more centralized and harder toaccess. And this is coming directly from

(01:35:30):
the people who usually are bringing usthe best information, the FLOYDA soldiers like
John Greenwald and Jack Drewer and evenDave Betty, and they're they're telling us
that UFO UAP information has become muchmore restricted. All UAP videos, for

(01:35:50):
instance, have now become classified instantly, right, And many people can speculate
on why this has happened, youknow, but essentially it has habited.
And this is a direct result ofmuch of the legislation that we've been asked
to help support and to get past. So despite all the people telling us

(01:36:13):
that disclosure is coming. The governmentis letting the info out. We're forcing
the info out from the government.That's not happening. The only thing that's
happening is these people are presenting youwith their alleged information and they have motives
that are being fulfilled or are attemptingto be fulfilled through that. Well Son,

(01:36:34):
you know that's the side divert realquick. Sorry, it's just like
that that one of the one ofthe original conspiracies when Christian lab Right and
no others kind of looked at itright away and recognized like, hey,
wait a second, doesn't it kindof look like they've been running interference from
it Like the earliest they could gowho who made the loudest attempt at getting

(01:36:54):
getting themselves classified a special access firstoff, to get access to what the
government or the men in Black knowabout aliens. And then suddenly you see
like this involvement from the DA andothers, and for years now we have
these people that are allegedly you know, insiders, helping to get the information
out, but it just seems likethey are forcing more running interference, almost

(01:37:17):
like like if you if you wouldif you would have asked, genuinely speaking,
what does it look like someone's doneother than what the obvious thing is.
It looks like they ran interference tothe point where things are more classfied
than ever. And that's never changedall the way back from the Bigelow days.
And I know that's a big broadleap, but it's the same guy.
It's Lullisando. He's still there.He's the guy's own public now holding

(01:37:39):
the freaking torch. He's literally thedude. But he was running security.
He wasn't running in deference. Hewas just running security on those eyesight service.
Oh, comp with a second,comp man, I appreciate it.
I feel bad we didn't get achance to ask you original question. I'm
not really sure how to ask,Steve, because we're talking about UFOs so
much right now. But thank youagain, COMP help and keep the show

(01:37:59):
alive with those years rose those shekels. Thank you very much, man,
crazy cash. But but I don'tmean to go divert so far from what
you just said, though I doso many lessons like you brought up Actually
a good point one time you saidthe you know that that there should be

(01:38:20):
some sort of skeptic conference or somethingand not a skeptic conference. But you
know that there already is that,but there but some sort of way to
easily bring this all in big historywise without having to do this conversation every
time where we remind people of allthese terrible anecdotes. It's hard. I
don't know what it would be.Do we have to start writing children's books,
skeptical children's books apout what's going on? Well, you know, and

(01:38:43):
this is just my take, butas as somebody who and I'll answer,
uh wes H asked a question,and I'll start by answering his question.
He asked if I ever saw anythingand why I got involved in the topic.
As I shared in the beginning ofthe show, you know, when
I around the age of twelve,I did one night see at least I

(01:39:04):
believe I did see a black trianglefloating like a hundred feet off the ground,
very very slowly. And today,you know, I feel like I
have no reason to believe that thatcouldn't have been a triangular shape blimp.
Right. But at the time whenI first saw it, of course,
being raised in the UFO culture ofthe nineties, and I had seen triangle

(01:39:27):
shaped UFOs on on sold mysteries andstuff like instantly I had thought that that
was like an alien craft or somethingthat was back engineered by our government and
was being flown, but was certainlysomething alien and not of this world,
right, because that's what everything thathad led me to believe. So for
years, like I went along withthat that notion, right, and like

(01:39:51):
I believed the stories. But it'sit's really sorry, I forgot why I
was profacing with this question for aminute. But as I you know,
for years, I sucked up whatwas on the top of the UFO topic,
right and just kind of accepted thingsat face value when senators and generals

(01:40:16):
and authority figures are saying all thisstuff and it must be true, right,
And as my research got deeper andI started to see more you know,
holes, and I became more skeptical. Uh you know, I realized
that, Sorry, I'm just havinga hard time keeping my train of thought.

(01:40:39):
Here. This is what I doto people. I follow it.
No, you're right, No,no, it's all me, you know,
but you you grew through the topic. As I was starting to describe
at the beginning of the show,like I remember, I was speaking in
the past, like it. It'sit's easy to start off from from being
less scrupulous and discerning of the informationpull into where you are today, where
it's almost like the exact opposite.It's almost like, you know, you're

(01:41:00):
not letting another damn thing in there, and I know that you were trying
to speak on something something else,But I think that resonates with so many
people. And that's why they findthemselves here listening to us, to Strange
recon or other channels, is becausethey did the same thing you did.
The head a weird experience are citingand over time they evolved from being like,
well, there must be something outthere, since so many people claim

(01:41:20):
that they had experience like I did, and they have evidence to back it
up. And then you're like,oh, after years of that, never
take you know, there's never theevidence, and and yeah, absolutely.
And what I was getting at inthe beginning, which I'd forgotten to and
I'll come back to now, isthat is that these things fuck, I

(01:41:42):
just did it again, Steve.I'm trying to not demonetize. You can't
swear anymore. Repeat these things righthere. It is like these things need
to be repeated right because the informationis there a lot of the cases that
like I found than the nineties andtwo thousands and just took the words of
some documentary or some UFO researcher whowas promoting the case, and I just

(01:42:08):
like took that and added it tothe information of all the others, and
just like the information was out there. There were good skeptics at the time
doing good contemporary research on these claims, just like there are today right good
people that are doing skeptical research onverifiable evidence to verify these unsubstantiated claims.

(01:42:30):
And they were doing excellent research whichrefuted these claims and which showed that the
evidence being presented was not as itappeared, if there was any evidence being
presented at all. But the popularUFO documentaries and the entertainment machine that is
the UFO industry was not really puttingthose things out there to be heard.
And if they were, they weredoing it in an debate style, you

(01:42:57):
know, where there would be likeyour token skeptic and then like a bunch
of like UFO people who get thekind of sympathetic ear whereas like the skeptics
like saying things that are curmudgeonly andjust like swamp gas and it's like,
oh God, that skeptic guy again, Right, he's clearly part of the
cover up. But every time,every time, I said right, And

(01:43:20):
as I became you know, asmy research got deeper and deeper, and
I started noticing holes, and Istarted going back and really deep diving into
cases and finding this excellent researcher fromskeptics who have literally been following the topics
since the sixties, who also startedout as UFO believers or UFO interested people,

(01:43:41):
you know, people like Robert Schaeffer, Like he's been around doing this
literally since the nineteen sixties, rightLike was schooled by Hi Neck, Like
literally was like taught by him incollege. And these people have been doing
great research. And if people don'tbring it up to new audiences, right,
Like, that research was out therefor decades, and it took me

(01:44:04):
like hearing about it from like someskeptical show or seeing a skeptical post,
or you know, just finding iton curiosity. It's very hard to find
these things. So I think it'sreally important that like the stuff that we're
talking about is talked about. TheUFO community, I think is made up
of mainly people that come and gopretty quickly, right, People that maybe

(01:44:28):
had a UFO interest for a longtime or even a short time, and
they get involved in this in theway that they get involved on UFO Twitter,
and they get involved and following thethings every day, and that only
seems to last for like a yearor two at the most, where they
kind of get tired of the thingsthat never happened, right, and they
tend to move on. Even ifthey don't become skeptical, they just figure
like I got better things to do, you know, That's exactly what they

(01:44:56):
claim actually, And you know thereason I said, Like when the big
Phone Home was going on, Isaid, like what I could see,
we like it would be really coolto have a skeptical phone home right where
it's like instead of people coming ontelling you about you know, who to
call, what senators and what legislationto support, and what UFO stories are

(01:45:19):
wild and the best UFO witnesses,and instead it would be people talking to
you about these specific cases and thesespecific researchers and these specific witness claims and
breaking down what the verifiable evidence isfor them, right, and talking about
things like evidence standards, right,and most people who are believing in UFO

(01:45:43):
claims think that they're doing so basedon very good information, right, often
because someone reliable setting That's usually whatit boils down down to. And you
know, unfortunately they're often just notaware of what appropriate research standards are,
right, And I just think alot of a lot of those things could

(01:46:08):
benefit the topic. I know thatmost people that are going to be paying
attention to the UFO topic are reallyjust in it for like the mystery and
the entertainment and the escapism. Butthere is like a minority of people who
are coming here who are truly interestedin like what the facts are, Like,
what's what's verifiable? What the evidenceis really pointing to? Right?

(01:46:30):
And it could be something very simplelike like Campbell Moriarra, he saw during
the twenty twenty one up push toget a congressional hearing, he saw President
Obama, you know, talking aboutthis stuff on the Late Night Show and
it just kind of made him thinklike, well, like what is behind
this? Like if this guy iswilling to go out there and talk about

(01:46:51):
this stuff, like what's the evidenceout there? Like what what's it?
Like? What's so convincing? Right? And people come to try and find
this evidence in the stay. Theyget presented with a lot of stuff that's
really sexy and appealing and convincing.If you're not focused on okay, what
are you showing to prove that?What are you showing to substantiate that?

(01:47:14):
And it would be really I thinkcool, just to make like or at
least it would have been at thetime, just to kind of answer the
big phone home and the UFO industryentertainment machine with something that's just you know,
much more factual and reliable and helpfuland beneficial people. Yeah, well
was an idea that I had.Well, I I think I was close

(01:47:38):
and I summed it all up withskeptic conference. I'm an Idiotn't listen to
me, Steve. I don't wantto hold you here for too long because
I know I'm gonna burn you out, But I just want to ask you
one more two more things. Abou'sokay? Like for one phenomicon, you
know that just happened with the UFOphenomicon in Utah happened and then you went
to Basin. Jack brew covers someof the some of the money that put

(01:48:00):
the state put out and it's anongoing kind of investigation there. But What
are your thoughts on phenomenon? Whatdo you think happened, anything note noteworthy
or worth discussing. Uh, yeah, phenomenon. I'm glad that you brought
it up. In fact, phenomenonthis year. It just happened a couple
of weeks ago. It was thethird one that they they've had. And

(01:48:27):
this is something that's funded by thelocal taxpayers. This year I'm trying to
pull. It's been funded by thelocal taxpayers essentially, and I think each
year has been about one hundred andfifty thousand dollars that that the taxpayers have
funded, and it's operated at aloss each year. It's not even covered,

(01:48:50):
you know, through ticket sales themoney to pay back the taxpayers.
And this is an event where youknow, UFO proponents and skin walker promoters
appear and you know, push theirnarratives and make their claims and they you

(01:49:10):
know, tell people about the skimwalkers and the hitchhikers that can you know,
follow them home, and all theUFOs that are over a skin walker
ranching and various things. There's variousspeakers, but essentially, like I said,
this is being used with government taxpayermoney to present and promote completely unsubstantiated,
sensational and often anti government conspiracy theories, and I find that really offensive

(01:49:39):
and troubling personally. I don't havea problem if these people want to do
that type of convention and they fundit privately, I'll still you know,
public claims deserve public scrutiny and accountability, and I was certainly probably still have
things to say about it. Butthe fact that it's being funded with government
taxpayer money is really concerned learning.And it's not the same as the typical

(01:50:01):
conventions or you know, stamp showsor something that locality may may fund to
promote tourism, right, And that'skind of been the defense, uh the
people that that that are the promotersof phenomenon. And just to get back

(01:50:21):
to the basics, this all starteddirectly with people tied to the skin Walker
ranch like Tom Winterton that started thisand with local local government, UH created
this conference and the funding for thisconference. And this was done without putting

(01:50:43):
out a bid to anyone else.We've had no type of metrics on you
know, how the process to undertakethis was you know, began, and
how for instance, even things likespeakers were chosen and how much money they
were going to be paid. Forinstance, Tom Winterton, who's one of

(01:51:03):
the planners of the convention, isalso one of the highest paid speakers of
the convention, right, And there'sa couple other people that are involved that
are also speakers, and it justit just looks a little bit like,
you know, some sweetheart funding foryou know, government funding for some sweetheart

(01:51:26):
friends. We kind of saw thathappen with the ass app contract and Bigelow
and in past years. But thething about the phenomenicon again is they you
know, they've not and I'll thisthe third one just happened a couple of
weeks ago, so I'll leave thatone out of this statement. But they've
they've failed to you know, evenvercoup the initial costs to taxpayers with the

(01:51:50):
previous phenomicons each year. And sorry, yeah, they failed to recruit the
costs. And they say that,you know, the whole point is to
bring in tourism, and they saythat, you know, they've brought in
up to a million dollars is thehighest quote that I've heard them say.

(01:52:12):
They've brought in a million dollars worthof tourism money into the community through this
phenomenon, and they've offered nothing,once again as usual, to substantiate that
claim. That's simply based off ofa metric essentially and not an algorithm,
but a mathematical equation that the tourismindustry uses to project expected hit earnings and

(01:52:40):
tourism dollars. They provided no typeof metrics or proof as to how much
money was actually brought in to thearea through the Phenomicon and the tourism involved.
It's just it's just a lot likethat would just alone, Like if
you do the math, there's onlylike a thousand people that even attended you
know, the Phenomicon to begin with, so like just to do their math,

(01:53:04):
like it just doesn't even that wouldmean that each person had to spend
a thousand dollars, and considering thatthe Phenomenicon itself was like one hundred and
some I just don't see that happening. I don't think that each person who
came spent a thousand dollars. Therea lot of people probably didn't even stay
in the town. I think thateven if they did, you know,

(01:53:27):
the convention center where the you know, the Phenomenon was held, and the
hotel where they were putting people up, like all that is owned by conglomerates
that are out in some instances,owned by people outside of the state.
These aren't things, these aren't businessesthat are owned by local taxpayers who funded
you know, the event. Thesepeople are coming in for the Phenomenicon convention.

(01:53:50):
That's the only place that they're almostessentially going while they're there. They're
not going to do you know,tourism in the area. They're not injecting
a lot of their money into thearea. They're going to Phenomenon. So
outside of you know, some mealswhich most of them probably ate at the
convention in the convention center, rightoutside of mules and lodging, which again

(01:54:14):
doesn't really give money to the localcommunity. If the local community doesn't own
the local lodging, I don't reallysee, you know, where they're bringing
much money into the community at all, And instead they are taking money from
the community and dispersing it amongst peoplewho are again promoting very wild, unsubstantiated

(01:54:38):
conspiracy theories often that come along withthe caveat that the government is covering it
all up. And I just findthat very disheartening and concerning and something that
I believe deserves it, you know, accountability and Erica Lukes and Jack Brewer
have done a great job over atexpanding Frontiers Research as far as covering this

(01:54:59):
and filing boy is and getting documentsto UH to really give us a better
idea of who was involved in theplanning and all the holes that are really
existing to go around it. Also, Nate Carlisle at Fox thirteen in Salt
Lake City has covered this and hewas gracious enough to include me in my

(01:55:26):
opinions in one of his articles andvideos on the Phenomenon, the one for
this year, just a couple ofweeks ago. Now, one thing that
I will point out is that theythat Phenomenicon did claim to Nate Carlisle and
they gave him a financial document essentiallyjust showing you know, ticket sales and

(01:55:47):
whatnot. Apparently they did recoup Ibelieve the tourism director said that this conference
costs one hundred and seventy thousand dollarsto the tax pang and that is exactly
apparently what Phenomenicon brought in this year. According to this one page document that
was provided to make Carlisle from Foxby I don't know who, but someone

(01:56:13):
tied to the Phenomenicon convention, andagain, I don't know if that's If
that's the case, that would begreat, if they really did cover the
cost to taxpayers, that would bea great thing to see. We'll just
have to see, you know whatwhat becomes of that as time goes on
and we hopefully get more verifiable sourcesof information where we can say that for

(01:56:38):
sure. Again, still doesn't reallytake away from a lot of the issues
that we have with promotional sensational storiesbeing you know, pedaled for cash.
You know, and Jack Brewer dida great interview with Tom Winterton, one
of the planners of the phenomenon,who's also a big part of the skin

(01:56:59):
Walker Ranch and a big part ofthe Skinwalker Ranch TV show. He was
featured in every episode essentially, andin the very beginning, in the very
first season, the first episodes,he was one of the people they showcased
as to having received brain injuries fromdigging on the ranch and being hospitalized for
it. And you know this,Jack Brewer had a great interview with this

(01:57:25):
guy concerning this, you know,the phenomenon and exactly how they were able
to you know, convince the localgovernment to fund this and to get this
you know, off the ground,and uh, it was it was interesting
to me that at one point,you know, and and Jack's talked to
other people in the planning committee andthe tourism director, I believe, and

(01:57:49):
you know, just to show thegray area that's always exploited in the topic.
For instance, when city officials werefirst being presented by the idea for
Phenomenicon, you know, Brandon Fugel'svery specific in saying that he was not
involved in the you know, theplanning of Phenomenon. And although you know,

(01:58:13):
his co workers were very involved inplanning it and speaking at it and
appearing at it, you know,his employees, sorry, his employees,
yes, his his very good friendsand employees and stars of the show.
He you know, is distanced himselffrom any part of its you know,
sale to the government essentially or convincingthe local economy to government to pay for

(01:58:40):
it and to fund it. Butyou know, Tom, Tom Winterton and
others have said that, you know, when when Tom was meeting with government
officials to talk about the planning ofPhenomenicon, you know that Brandon Fuegel's Collier's
business card, you know, waspresented, and Fugel to this very day
we'll go out of his way tosay that, you know, Colliers International

(01:59:03):
had no part in the phenomenon andwhat But if his business card with Colliers
on it is being presented, youknow, to the government county officials in
the prospect of creating this this venture, then it's it's it's certainly fair if

(01:59:24):
those people then assume that Colliers isinvolved. Right. I don't know what
other reason, what wrote you wouldtake other than listening to his excuse and
believe him. Uh it's there.Yeah, And it sounds you know,
it sounds really petty. It's alot of people and I can totally understand

(01:59:44):
that, and even looking at someof the Fox coverage, I can understand
where people are kind of you know, like, what's what's the difference?
You know, these people are comingbecause they're interested in these topics and these
stories and Bigfoot and skim Walker Ranch. When these people are providing them with
you know what, you know,what they're seeking essentially, and what's you
know, what's the big deal?But again, I get back to the

(02:00:06):
fact that you know, these arevery sensational, unsubstantiated claims that have a
very anti government through line that thathighlight them and these are very sensational things
and people people can go to extremeson all kinds of beliefs, right,

(02:00:30):
And I just I feel like thereneeds to be some kind of accountability when
we're telling people that there are portalsin this world where entities can come through
them at will, shape shifting entitieswho can also make us sick, even
make us deathly ill, and canattach themselves to us and then can attach

(02:00:51):
to other people become in contact withand affect them and their psyche and their
health and can even cause them illness. Says they can kill them. And
the government's hiding this and keeping itall from us, and you know,
these are just very hiding it.But it's under my ranch. It's very
confusing. And that's always the case, right, you know, the government

(02:01:18):
is responsible for proving and providing theevidence for the claims of other people.
Right. And it's just yeah,no, you sum it up with you.
It's almost it's almost like this thingthat's happened to me, and I
gotta try to advise people about it. You will catch yourself ending sentences with

(02:01:40):
like your hands and your hair likelike this is literally so frustrating and in
just so many they sum up yourwork or Jack's work or someone else's work
as being petty. But when itcomes down to what it's like, aren't
there still standards at least like evenif you don't want to call ufology anything,
legit him in, Let's just saysomeone claims as a ranch, have

(02:02:03):
that have all these effects happening onit. Don't you think there'd be at
least a something from the state togo through and like figure it out and
set it like skip this whole willprove your claims. Let's figure out what's
happening because people are getting injured totrying to profit off like this kind of
amusement park of death Blow whatever thehell it is, I don't know,

(02:02:23):
and it's it seems that that tookplace. It only one like they figured
it out a way to do it, because it's not just how pilot's claims
or some ambiguous high contrast video.It's it's like a place that anyone can
go to. I'm gonna talking aboutsorry, talking about the ranch in relation
to phenomenon. I think we coulddraw up plenty, like you said,

(02:02:43):
all the employees and including having misterFugel's own business listed there you know,
I just yeah, And what youwere saying, if there is this entity
which is literally health dangerous to people, it was, yeah, affecting their
brains and giving them brain trauma andhealth dangerous. That's a new word,

(02:03:04):
Steve, starting to cut you up. That's going to be a new movie
title next year, health dangerous.I love it. I'm sorry, I've
had I've had you talking for solong, man, I feel so terrible.
I could tell you're burning out.And I apologize, man, no,
no, I was woefully underprepared,and I do apologize. I think

(02:03:27):
the point really needs to be highlightedthat you just touched on, that these
people are claiming that there is,you know, an entity there that is
dangerous to people's health and can causethem even death. And they're not going
to the CDC, like they're they'renot going to the government to tell them
about about this and to have it, you know, cordoned off, and

(02:03:47):
like they're bringing people and celebrities ontothe property in fact, and then they're
leaving the property potentially with these hitchhikers, and they're interacting with millions of people,
thousands of people across the country andconventions all over the country, in
different states, possibly infecting them withit, and like it just doesn't again,

(02:04:09):
it doesn't follow what the normal courseof action would be if you really
believe that there is a possibly fatalentity that can attack at any time,
that can cause equipment to malfunction,and does like that all the time.
But they have no problem flying theirhelicopters over the property, like knowing they

(02:04:30):
could drop out of the sky atany time. Yeah, yeah, and
and and and again. It isall speculation, but it's it is very
easy to say, like, well, you know, what's the big deal.
You know, it's very petty.You know, it's like belief in
Santa Claus. And again, like, no one is lobbying against the government

(02:04:51):
or lobbying for government spending in thebillions of dollars over Santa Claus right now,
at least not yet as far aswe know, although norad, what
have you been up to? No, that's that's the hard part about it
too, because there's some like somebodygenuine I'm sorry, no, I should
give it ten years. Ten years. There are there's so many people that

(02:05:15):
that have made like really try tostress me. Hey, I'm not putting
any name on this. I'm notsaying what I think it is. I'm
just telling you what it felt likehappened to me, or what I thought
happened to me, And I don'tand I've been in those scenarios before.
I can understand. There's some absolutelyfunneling and confusing, and there are enigmas
of the world that are yet tobe explained. But when we see such
contradictions and very simplistic narratives and peopletake an advantage of the of like this

(02:05:40):
kind of ambiguous, broad you knowwhat it may be type of thing,
then I feel it's our duty tocall it out. I'm not We're not
trying to start a fight here,but if someone says that, hey,
wherever I walk could literally infect you, all right, wherever I go from
now on, I'm going to leavebehind something that is that is no different
than a disease or a virus orsomething. You know, It's like,

(02:06:00):
don't you think there should be somesort of standard, But it said it
seems the standard is to immediately findthe direct route to profits before anything.
You know, It's like, findthe direct route to profits. It reminds
me of of a lawyer family whoseson always gets in trouble and there's always
a way out, and they justright away it's not what happened. It's
not what people claimed. It's thefirst way to you know, get out

(02:06:21):
of this, or the first wayto make money off it or something.
So the healthing, obviously there wasa key feature to this. By the
way, we should probably shouldn't hammerthat even further before you get out of
your steve. I mean some ofthe other things that noted just brought it
up with me. I thought itwas hilarious, not just the health thing,
but the practices they do it.They claim they're going to do something
and they want everyone to tune inthat that one thing could they claim could

(02:06:45):
spread to everyone who's watching this themeon the show that that is like anti
science, anti edison. I noticedon Jack Brewer's site there was that that
complaint about the possible or deposit there. Did you see that on the blog
the the the written letter to theNevada of the Utah State Geological something or

(02:07:06):
another. Yes, yes, Ido. Now there's things out there out
there like that. Now there's nodirect evidence A supports there is something under
the ground causing these things, ButI mean, do you remain open to
the idea that there is like anatural explanation that is actually causing some people
to feel certain ways rather than youknow, the direct evidence of where wolves
and flying sauces and stuff. Absolutely, you know that area that the Untah

(02:07:33):
Basin is rich in natural natural gas, uranium too, and natural gas as
well. Yeah, yeah, specifically, and of course there are properties to
you know, natural gas and methanethat can cause people to hallucinate. Right,
It can spontaneously, can bust,right, It can cause people to

(02:07:57):
have you know, have altered thinking, and all of these things can certainly
combine, and especially over time,right, because all this is allegedly built
on the myth that goes back hundredsof years, the Native American myth allegedly
right of the skin walker. Andcertainly you can imagine that instances over time

(02:08:22):
in this area where say natural gasseeping up through the ground has caused instances
where people have misinterpreted what that wasand had led to allure being around the
area. Right, that has sincebeen you know, capitalized on and expanded
for people, you know, byvarious people for various different reasons. But

(02:08:45):
sure, I have no In fact, I think that with a lot of
UFO cases. Right, if wewere to look at the totality of you
know, UFO witnessing events, Ithink that most of them are something that
was just misinterpreted by the witness,right, and it has a very natural,

(02:09:07):
mundane, so to speak, explanation. I think that's often the case,
much more often than people are makingit up out of thin air for
instance. Right, Oh, that'sthat's a fact for sure. That the
way the first part of that,Yeah, that there's absolute misidentification and completing.
You know, I don't know whatit is, but here's what here's
what it was. Type of Andlike so many like no one's in no

(02:09:33):
one's impervious right to like that typeof human fallibility, Like it doesn't matter
how smart you are, how educatedyou are, how experienced you are,
Like people can be fallible, right, Like most astronauts do not believe that
the Sumerian texts support that aliens camehere thousands of years ago and created us

(02:09:58):
through DNA and blah blah blah.Right, but like there apparently are semn
astronauts who do believe this, rightdespite and and who knows exactly why,
Like people are are fallible, andand and it can link to all kinds
of reasons. But like, forinstance, one person, I just wanted
touch on real fast before you go, just in membrants of her as Carol,

(02:10:20):
thank you. I was going toask you. I apologized. I
had to write up here next onyour Twitter Twitter from the twenty first yeah,
and feel free to you know,bring it bringing that offer any of
those links, and she was.Carol Rainey initially had a twenty year career
in producing and directing medical films withscientists and epidemiologists in the medical industry,

(02:10:45):
and after doing that for many manyyears, eventually in the nineteen nineties she
met Bud Hopkins, the guy whoreally made popular the idea of alien abduct
abduction. Right. He was thefirst to really with intruders, you know,
come in with this idea that especiallynot no longer you need to you

(02:11:09):
know, be on the road orin the middle of a forest to be
abducted by aliens, but they canabduct you right out of your bedroom,
right, even if you lived rightnear the Brooklyn Bridge, they could do
it. And he almost single handedlycreated the abduction phenomena that grew in the
eighties and nineties and two thousands andhe begat David Jacobs and then eventually John

(02:11:33):
Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist, andthat became the big three of the abduction
you know phenomena essentially, and theycan all trace right directly back to Bud
Hopkins. He got each of thosemen involved in this with his work.
Now, when Carol Rainey Beyond gotinvolved with Bud Hopkins, who his career

(02:11:56):
was in abstract art, he wasin New York City, abstract artist who
got involved with you know UFOs essentiallyin the late seventies and early eighties and
never look back. He had extremesuccess with his books on UFO abduction,
which showcased allegedly the true stories ofpeople who'd been abducted by aliens. And

(02:12:16):
when Carol got involved with him,she started to you know, cover his
research, you know, his studyof the phenomena, because that's what her
whole life had been, you know, filming and reporting research. And she
did this essentially for ten years theywere married, and she became a very

(02:12:37):
active part almost in his study ofthis phenomena. And after some time,
you know, after years essentially,she really started to pick up on the
issues that existed with the research thathe had all the you know, issues
of just like chain of custody,and especially the way that he would have

(02:13:03):
an active part in creating or implantingideas into people's heads. You know,
there's all kinds of minutia tied upwith that, and the way that abduction
stories many times came to fruition.Oftentimes people first saw something on TV or

(02:13:24):
read the book of Bud Hopkins,and then suddenly they remembered that they had
had an instance and maybe that wasconnected to this alien abduction thing. And
so then they would call, likeyou know, Bud Hopkins or John Mack
and go through that process, andthey would probably have them go through hypno
therapy, regressive hypno therapy, andthey would remember these things. And there's

(02:13:45):
just all kinds of avenues for pollutionof the witness memories and the ideas that
come out of building these abduction cases. And again this is Carol Rainey had
spent years in medical community, andeven her you know, is as a
human being, was fallible. Shewas obviously in a relationship with Bud Hopkins,

(02:14:09):
and she didn't hold the same standardof evidence that she normally would,
and she didn't do that purposely withoutnoticing it. She was allowing for much
lower evidence standards and for pollutions andfor research techniques to be to be done

(02:14:30):
very poorly essentially, and it tookher, you know, years of following
this to really realize the issues,and eventually her Bud divorced, and then
some years later in the two thousandand tens, the early two thousand and
tens, she came forward with thepiece essentially on Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs,

(02:14:50):
and John mac which she called,you know, the High Priests of
Abduction, and she wrote a pieceessentially just you know, being very critical
with very good substantiating evidence about theissues that existed in the research of these
men. And this was at thetime their research essentially was unassailable outside of

(02:15:13):
the skeptical community, so to speak. In the UFO community, these men
were just heroes. They were atthe top of the game. And she
was, of course, when shecame out with her expose, she was
very much shunned by the community,as was Emma Woods, one of David
Jacob's subjects. And I won't getinto that because that's a whole nother story.

(02:15:37):
But people didn't want, you know, this to be what they to
not be what they had in midgetivebeing. And she took a very big
step in coming out and showing alot of the videos that she had recorded
with Bud Hopkins, including instances ofhim, you know, being deceptive and

(02:15:58):
trying to force conclusions out of peopleand memories out of people. And also,
for instance, he interviewed Corso,Philip J. Corso after his book
on Roswell came out, and innineteen ninety eight, really just weeks before

(02:16:18):
Corso died, Bud was interviewing him, and she recorded this conversation between the
two men, and it's very veryrevealing to see how these two men would
kind of use each other or exploiteach other, especially Bud Hawkins, to
try and further their you know,their own goals and ideas. And it's

(02:16:41):
just kind of funny to see twopeople obviously spinning some yarns and exaggerating things
for their own personal gain and ina very and a very exposing kind of
conversation. And if I mean,you don't have to, but if you
wish, you could certainly play itat the end of this interview. It's

(02:17:01):
a really short, like five minutevideo that just is very I think it
shows very well in real time justhow hollow a lot of these people were
and a lot of what they weresaying were and we can extrapolate that out
to people of today, like youknow, George Knapp and Jeremy Corbelle,

(02:17:22):
and there's just all, I think, a lot to be learned. But
anyway, Carol Rainey died last week, I guess it was, and just
as you know, to kind ofremember her, I wanted to put up
a post just of work, featuringher and her work and you know,
really good interviews. And she wenton for you know, a few years
there to give select interviews and writingsabout her experiences, you know, of

(02:17:46):
researching the abduction phenomena with blud Hopkinsand her experience as being you know,
really an insider and giving us behindthe scenes glimpses of the abduction phenomena and
how the sausage was made right,and she's just offered such her work is
just really in in invaluable. Youknow, it's I don't want to say

(02:18:13):
the old expression, but there hasbeen a few times where a few partners
in uthology have been like you know, suffered years of abuse, years of
misuse, they've been you know,talked down to and put in the corner

(02:18:33):
and so to speak, are soto speak, and they've had their own
things to say, in their ownideas, and then one day that couple
or that group no longer as friendsanymore. And good golly, have we
seen many times where the floodgates comeopen where you see the truth of that
individual that whole time that everyone thoughtwas just the subjective doctor that love to
lay you down. And I'm notsaying that, you know, some of

(02:18:54):
the dirtier claims are true, butI but it just it's happened so many
times that it's almost unreal. Andeven today, I mean you, I'm
not going to use any names,but the people exist today that knew Bud
Hopkins and knew him in in anintimate way, that are out there still
pushing the very things that they talkedabout that back then, even after Carol,

(02:19:15):
you know. And by the way, one of the articles that you
had shared, I love the titlefor at Cala Rainy the most Dangerous person
in Euthology, because like that,that's what happens when you see how the
sausage is made, so to speak, and you have the bit like I
don't even want to say I mean, I don't want to push rumors.
But let's just say that Bud Hopkinshad a tight and those types are still

(02:19:37):
out there today, but only one. We only know about the cal Rainy
side of it. And how thatyou know, did disagree. I don't
want to get into it. Iguess I shouldn't even brought that up.
No, but it's you know,it is important because that yeah, sorry,
you know, we can get intoLeslie Kane if you want to say

(02:19:58):
no, You're right, I gotno. I wanted to say it,
but then at the same time,it's I already do it so much.
People already hate me for it somuch about the keen thing. But this
is like the same group of individualsand one is a hardcore beate lever,
and after all these years, it'sstill spelting the same thing. And the
other one is, it said,the opposite. She's passed away now.
But you see that you can't haveboth. I'm sorry, I'm gonna get

(02:20:20):
a little brought here, but youcan't have Carol Rainey and Leslie Keene.
We're in the sense that Leslie's like, it's all true, trust me,
and then you have Carol Rainey whosays the exact opposite because of she sees
how shoddy the practice was, themanipulation, coersion and kind of, in
my opinion, straight up planting ofmemories of people's heads and then saying my

(02:20:41):
theory was right all along there itis, I got it out of the
person. But then, of coursewith the opposite, with Keen, you
have someone out there who's literally pushingone hundred percent of everything these people have
said, essentially still to this day, where she no offense to my friends
that are super into the paranormal stuff, like you know that Bud knew the

(02:21:05):
truth and that I don't want toI don't want to talk ill of the
dead man. I feel bad.All right, maybe I'll just stop right
here. Let's just say that Ifeel people we're trying to profit off of
their own hypothesis by you know,implanting the story just as much as as
you're uncovering it. I feel likeI don't really those people really don't fit

(02:21:26):
with me in my uthology today.I don't even like to go near it
because you start to really hurt feelings. And Steve, you're a braver man
than I sorry, I'll shut up. You finish, you wrap up what
you want to say. Well,I'm gonna let you go, man.
But I I do think it's important. It's important, really is, because
we will repeat history. But Idon't it's so dirty, the hotel stuff

(02:21:46):
and all the things and throughout historythat we've heard of these two and these
let's just say that these people areall on the elector. Sorry. I
would love to see you get intothat a little more sometime and maybe even
do like a Leslie Keene you knowepisode. I don't. Yeah, I

(02:22:11):
guess I could. I'm stubb alittle my words here because I'm realizing now
who might be watching this to nightbecause I posted on Facebook that's such a
coward. Sometimes I'm like, dude, I don't want to I just don't
want to offend elderly people. They'restill out there, you know what I
mean. And you're like, I'mnot saying it's offending them, but like,
do you know how many people feltlike they were just getting into the
art side of things and you followedyou because that was their experience, But

(02:22:35):
then they attached themselves to people likeor In they work like budd and and
all these others and Mac and allthis. So it's like they're still out
there, they still pushing it,and there they see this video and I
just I don't know. I'm sorry, Steve, I'm rambling away here,
but I just feel like I don'tkiss anyone off again, No, and

(02:22:56):
you know, you're a liar.I think that just still like bring a
full circle. I would call LeslieKing one of the most dangerous women in
uthology, or one of the mostdangerous people in neuthology, you know whatever.
Like her, her her influence thatshe's had is is unmatched, and

(02:23:16):
she is very She's admitted multiple timesto misrepresenting facts and events and omitting information
to craft and narrative that would bemore palatable to audiences. Right, Like
these are huge, These are hugeproblems. And I mean she's you know,

(02:23:37):
a very she presents very well.She's very good at presenting. You
know, she was, you know, the better half of Bud Hopkins for
years and you're like, you wouldn'teven know that today. Like, she
doesn't feature Bud's work, she doesn'ttalk about it in any of his pieces,
she doesn't tie anything in right,and and I think a lot of

(02:24:01):
that is to like keep you know, her aura of legitimacy, right,
But there's a lot of there's justa lot to be concerned about. Yeah,
no, I guess I just didn't. Yeah, I just I've been
I've been so harsh with it.I really do feel like that's why the
channel suffer so bad sometimes when Isay certain things. Obviously you know what,
I don't want to swear or anythinglike that. But it's like these

(02:24:22):
two specifically, she's using the exacttactics. It's it's to summarize your work
and to make your make yourself lookcorrect in order to I mean, this
wasn't the exact row, but thatthey needed money, he needed there is
a case studies. We wanted topractice. He wanted work. He wanted
to continuously bring people in, justlike Mac and all these other people.

(02:24:43):
You know, we talked about Jacobs. But has he slowed down? I
don't know that guys still out there. I don't even know. I forget
now, But isn't he still workinglike fully with and the idea of you
know, hair comes a scary invasionin any day. Now, look what
all these people are saying, theseabductees, these people applied to Tack can
use it for years to achieve atleast some success, and Keen is doing

(02:25:03):
no different today. I mean it'sthe same thing, Like you said,
make it more palable. Well,don't you think these people have a goal,
and it's simply not to get theirnames in some sort of medical literature.
I mean they literally need they wantmoney to continue their goofy research that
no one else really cares about.And I don't mean to be super disheartened
about it, but all of thepeople you mentioned earlier all fall in the

(02:25:24):
same category. Even Harvard's John Mackis, like, you know, doing
certain parts of your work is ethical, but everything else is like straight off
the walls, nut job, wacky, and you're getting money from it in
some way by presenting yourself is comingfrom some super academic background and doing things
very legitimately, and then thirty fortyyears later you find out you're over there

(02:25:46):
in the middle of the crop circlewhacking off of the rest of them.
All right, Sorry I shouldn't saidthe last part, but do you know
where I'm going with that? Sorry? Yeah? Absolutely, And like Max
sentesting just because he really does havekind of the the qualifications, so to
speak, Right, whereas Bud Hopkinsdoesn't, like what what what credentials does

(02:26:11):
he have to be hip? No, like hypnotizing and giving aggressive hypnosis to
people. Same thing with David Jacobs, like he's a history professor, Like
what's he doing hypnotizing people and beingtheir psychia psychologist and you know, doing
hip regressive hypnosis literally through the phone, through cell phones and text Like it's

(02:26:37):
just it's just bizarre. And macagain, he had, you know,
kind of the credentials to give hima lot of legitimacy with the things that
he would present, but you know, in my mind, like he totally
failed the people who he was supposedto be helping. You know, these
people were essentially like his patients,right, like, and I don't think

(02:27:01):
that he really served them justly bybeing completely biased and subjective in the way
that he approached what they had tosay. And you know, it's not
really talked about, but towards theend of Max's life, he really did
admit that he had probably given morethat the one was, you know,

(02:27:22):
mistake that he had made essentially wasassuming that everything that people had to say
was absolutely true, right And certainlythere are you know, people who were
you know, masking other traumas andhad other things happen to them and weren't
abducted by aliens. And he didn'tserve there. You know, he didn't

(02:27:48):
do no harm. Uh didn't reallyseem to come into his mind. I
don't think he did it purposely.I think that he was just a fallible
guy. And that's just my subactive opinion, of course. But you
know, towards the end of hislife, he wasn't even doing UFOs anymore.
He was doing life after death right, kind of just like Robert Bigelow

(02:28:09):
is today and Leslie Keene is doinglife after death a lot of you know,
and he has you know, Ithink it would have been interesting to
see what what what it became ifMatt had lived on a little longer,
you know, what kind of whatkind of reparations I guess he would have
made to the work that he haddone in alien you know, in the

(02:28:31):
alien sector. And it's like it'sjust such a short amount of time really,
like it's just a few years ifhe was involved in really just a
couple of years and like investigating thealien thing and like doing the Ariel thing.
Yeah, and and again, likepeople are human. Like, just
because they're the head of the psychologypsycho psychology department at Harvard or the you

(02:28:56):
know, head of cosmology at atHarvard, Like, it doesn't mean that
they're infallible, right, It doesn'tmean that they don't have egos that play
into their research and how they promotetheir ideas and their theories and their work.
Yeah, it's it's certainly man.And you said you touched on a
few things there that I wish wehad time to talk about it. But

(02:29:16):
I mean, I mean the factthat Keenan and these folks are still talking
about life and they morphed into thatback then. What was the other woman's
name that along with hop along withHopkins and and the other fellow their jacobs,
she did like the soul like they'refeeding off your soul abduction. What

(02:29:37):
was her name? She's popular,her daughters out there still working. I
think, Oh my god. Sheshe was popular in the ali abduction world,
where she basically pushed the idea thatthese things were another dimensional might as
well mon afterlife, feeding off yoursouls normally, she's huge. All of

(02:29:58):
these people quote her, whether theysay their quoting or not. Oh my
god, said I'd be like,oh, yeah, you know, you
know her because she's still she's superpopular, like on like viral video like
today, they'll just be like anold woman, give me like a aggressive
therapy thing, and she's like andthey're taking the fetus from your body down

(02:30:18):
like she's like saying these words tobe like, oh my god, not
Dorothy Eye though, that's the ladywith the lights in the sky. But
uh wait talking about Pasalka. Nope, close enough. But I guess the
reason why I brought it up isbecause they're actually all from that same group
that they evolved altogether where they founda route where there's like no way to

(02:30:41):
disprove it. They found a way, you know what I mean, kind
of out of it can be measuredand evidence can be gained. And I
know I say that line all thetime about Keen and we can't prove it.
We could prove this skeptics wrong.But it's at the point now where
where there's like they put themselves ina place where they're gaining money, they
can't have their facts verified if theyspot talking about the phenomenon and okay,

(02:31:01):
I'm sorry, and uh and they'reand they're also basically, I apologize.
I've got a scale here. It'sfine, Okay. They put themselves in
a place where they're they're they're doingthe big Foot show money thing. You

(02:31:22):
cannot disprove them. You cannot proveit, but you can essentially ask for
money and get it, saying you'retrying to, you know, figure this
all out. And it finds itsorigins from the Bud Hopkin paintings and and
and therapy sessions of and it's it'sliterally the story that they created. If
you go back to the earliest regressivethings, all of the people started sounding

(02:31:45):
the same and they all talk tothese same individuals, this one group of
people back then. What's that yousaw? Aliens? Do they look great?
They have big guys that do theytake you in the ship at night.
It's the same story. It followsthis group of people, and it's
just where we're at today. We'restuck in this this time of limbo.
Steve, I'm sorry, ramble andthen get rid of you, but we
do got to call this quits.If I could get you on in a

(02:32:09):
few weeks, a few months likewe've been doing again, it'd be great
to see what you have to sayabout what you've been researching. And I
apologize to everyone that I could stayup and finish this interview right now.
Please catch the rest of it later. Uh, it'll be on there,
Steve. Yeah, absolutely have anyclosing words for our for our friends here
at Strange recon No. No,I love asking people that. Yeah,

(02:32:33):
I wrote a closing statement. Wellstay, stay weird and keep your brown
eye peeled out there. And youjust got us demonetized. Thanks a lot
of Steve. There you go.No, a lot of a lot of
good thinking points here, thinking points. I just sent that video with Butt

(02:32:56):
Hopkins and Courso to you and Twitter. If you feel like playing it,
let's do it. I'll play itand then we're gonna shut it off right
there after. It's oh my god, this video. Yeah, this is
one of those he speaks very differentlyaround his kids versus the Hopkins thing.
It was I forget who came onthe show and said that it was pretty
interesting. It was Christian Lambright.I wrote about that. All right here

(02:33:18):
we go. Let me bring thisup now, what Hopkins and Corso author
or co author of the Day afterRoswell. Let's see if I got a
strike for this this is an educationalthing. I'm playing it because it's educational.

(02:33:39):
So I'm gonna before this summer.I'm here we go And I did

(02:34:01):
a quick and I did what's thewell? Got actually so a four WI
one day and I shined my lighttop and there I saw bay. There
we had a fastble DeJoy that'll beso talkable, and there was it was

(02:34:22):
a small. First I thought itwas a child within the mone and this
was more the head the hid.It was strange, it was sick compared
to the size of the body.It was large and then had three signs
and the black eyes the boy youwere sending there were six. They ain't

(02:34:43):
even got give me before the festival, I your head. I ever sent
in three trucks over day. Ihad one vibrass, mine saucer. I
didn't know what they were. Idon't know if they were waters to kiotic.

(02:35:07):
It's because I've seen that time.But one day in my actually I
have to hold my hand, myclothes back hand and they started the roles.
Because there is an interesting that wehad something before the cion was play
given an industry. The metal ofthe Alms were writing something you can scratch

(02:35:35):
it contended, we can. SoI got a team and I an a
with my chaining. Yep, wesaid to the general also said this will
be bigger than as almost we canpart about seating technology we're spoken about on

(02:36:15):
the show before Hope. For allthe folks reading this right now or can't
read this, you know there arejobs out there that do sound eerily similar
to what it describes, but theydon't originate from aliens and KVD univers and
KVD right in the law. Sohere we go. Think black came out

(02:36:39):
and they've caused me a lot ofdifficult Well you you raise in this,
you know any no matter what anybodythinks, that good book, you're raising
extraordinary important issues. Important the moredocumentation. But these are crucial issues.
These are not there we see inin UFO material. We're in a situation

(02:37:00):
here where the debunkers are after usat all time, the skeptics and militaries.
And when I make a statement,I have to say I got this
from some and so here's a document. Here's a letter that this person wrote
me. Now you may discard theletter, or you may discard my saying
it came from so and so.But at least I'm offering, uh,

(02:37:22):
the letter, the source, thename or whatever, and if you don't
do that, and you simply asit seems in the letter in the book
that you you had a lot offriends in in the NKAB and they told
you things and you believe, no, I didn't have funds in your VD.
Yeah. Well, can I takea particular quote you made, the
quote that Truman said, if Winchellfinds out about that, Joe, can

(02:37:46):
you turn a video volume up?And there was our Goose's cook or something
to that. Yeah, but Imean you quote, this is coming from
the KGB and KBD. What yousaid, how do I know this my
friendship with the with the NKVD agents. Well, so I'm trying to find
out who these people were. Couldyou give me an example, I just

(02:38:09):
so I can get a sense ofit. Where you would be when you
would have a conversation with one ofthese agents. Want us be in a
bar with this beat? There wasat least fire six bars. One was
in Arrington, Virginia, another onewas in Rockville, and there was about
three or four in washingt DC.I would show up there once in a

(02:38:33):
while and sit down and somebody kindof sit with me. Now what they
look like. Well, really,they weren't what people say in the book,
you know, with beards, andthey would look like ordinary Americans.
And I can't give any description wellthat it makes an outstanding but just to
again to follow us up, itwould be very clear that they would have

(02:38:58):
a tremendous aim in making you lookdown upon the president and make you feel
in a certain sense of disloyal forthe president. There would be that would
be an obvious goal. I mean, they're trying to never succeeded. Well
no, I'm not saying that theysucceeded, of course not, but they
would be hear me, honestly,they would want to sew dissension. I

(02:39:22):
mean obviously that's what our agents said. Now, my point is when they
made a remark like that the Trumansaid, and you quoted in the book,
if Winchell finds out, we've reallyhad it so on. So when
you said that came from the NKBD, why would you necessarily believe them as
opposed to be thinking that they're tryingto do Because they always ran checks off

(02:39:43):
on who they were and what theywere, their passports and so forth.
I never took it on facial value. What they said to me. I
went back to the pending wong,to our files and our agents and checked
it out, and only that mostpeople didn't know this in those days.
I was a great friend of JajarHoovers. We were very close. He

(02:40:03):
wrote one of the few commendations onme, it's in my farmer's dagon yet,
so I would go check it out. It wasn't that I ever took
the work. Don't you mentioned Iwould check it out many times. But
you don't mention in the book,but you actually checked out Maybe you did.
Like what do you say is that'san intelligent process which I didn't want
to I don't talk about. Oh, it's not a big deal to say,

(02:40:26):
here's the thing. In a wayto us, it wasn't. Well,
but let me put this hard.The war is now over fifty five
years. I checked him. Well, I'm telling you the special intelligence we
had. People didn't know that,right, I had that. But the
point is, the point is inthe book, the average reader can read
this and say, here are thesedisparaging remarks about government officials. And the

(02:40:48):
colonel says he got this from theUH in KVD. He doesn't say he
checked on it. He just sayshe believed the NKVD. Well that's not
good. Well, that's those arewords of consul. I didn't I didn't
say that. I believed, butnever in my time believed him because I
always was very careful to check itout. We can't pause here for a

(02:41:11):
second. I just want to saythis is actually the basic defense of everyone
who stands on behalf of the dayafter Roswell book is being as factual as
factual can be or not. Theythey'll they'll come to the defense say Corso
didn't like his co author and didn'tget a chance to fact check the book
thoroughly and finds him you know,you hear him like I didn't write that.
That's It's like, well, it'syour book, I didn't write that.

(02:41:35):
People literally will say that he disagreedwith the things that were wrote,
and so he actually didn't, youknow, put all the stuff out there.
I have a hard time of believingall that to be fair. All
right, sorry, Steve. Well, you know, when people aren't even
held to account for the things thatthey say on tape and video there,

(02:41:56):
they certainly don't find much need tobe held to account for the things that
they wrote in a book along withanother person or two, right, Like,
there's always plausible deniability. There's alwaysthe excuse, Yeah, it's an
interest. It's interesting to hear himsay it like right here, like because
I forgot that he you know,he just basically says it multiple times.

(02:42:18):
He's I mean you heard everyone heardhim, right, You just say I
did say I did say that,dude, that wasn't I didn't write that.
It's like, what did your bookson your names of the cover of
the book as you're entired that thewhole core concept of what's going on in
the field of quality, if it'sa field, rest on stories like this,
this being pretty much the core secretstory, I mean, to be
fair, the story. And it'snot like he went through the book and

(02:42:41):
said, oh wait, all thesethings are wrong. I never said this.
I didn't write it like this andthen put out something to correct them,
right. It's just the excuse that'sused whenever somebody points out a major
inconsistency or a major problem or anarea where you said one thing and then
another, yeah, well said,let's keep going there. Obviously, if

(02:43:03):
it's ever going to be anybody filledwithin the disinformation, it's going to be
the unfortunately. But see I neverI always checked it out. I had,
But you know what you should havesaid, if you don't mind my
critics, what you should have saidit is I listened to the n I
did not believe. That's not whatyou said in the mall. But and

(02:43:24):
then you said, yeah you wantto check out. Okay, well,
no evaluation, And then you shouldhave said in the book just to reassure
us, US readers and everybody else. I then went to there was a
Britdio general and the Air Force asa friend of mine. There was a
criminal who has stationed such insight nonames. I checked with them. They

(02:43:46):
had had conversations with Twining. Theyassured me that this in fact happened.
You see that way I would readthis and say this makes sense. But
to say that the source for youis simply the NKVD and what it is
is it kind of remarks people thinkwho are enemies. Let me tell you
one thing, it would be extremelyimportant to verify your story. Will really

(02:44:07):
be able to find the names ofthese people, will contact them the names
unfortunated for so many years ago.I don't but here's what happened. But
you remember very clearly they turned youagents themselves. Yeah, I mean your
your statements that you learn lessons anddon't remember the teacher's name. It happened
Harry Truman and General Twine and othersin the White House based on what they

(02:44:31):
taught you. So since you rememberthat very clearly, I'm interested in who
these people are so we can contactagain. Well, what would be your
sense of I mean, what didthey look like? Let's start with it.
Described look, thank you really looklike coverage Americans. You see that
one of them having mustache, onewas sixty one early. I mean,

(02:44:52):
let's know, mostly they were almostall the ones that I dot with were
almost all clean shaven. The mostlest thing as beards and stash or compas.
That is it just to shift tosomething, can you talk about him?
This engineering business exact? You wouldtake material to a the scientists that

(02:45:18):
had company let's say Bell Lapps orsomething like it, and without revealing this
came from the space. You know, I wouldn't take it, or you
would take material. It was materialthat went it was regular R and D
projects. So a lieutenant or anofficer never went with those those were put
in their hands. I don't knowhow how those were sent out. There

(02:45:39):
wasn't my area where they were mailedor handed to somebody, or in most
cases there was not an officer sentYeah. Yeah, I didn't go he
the materials were set out. Hedoesn't know how it happened. He doesn't
know what the process was. Hedoesn't know where they went or who took
them, but they went out.He was in charge of it. Yeah,

(02:46:03):
yeah, yeah, this is Iwas always I was assuming you were
going to talk about the contradictions werehere and they're not. To mention that
he has stated explicitly on multiple timesbeing interviewed or throughout the years for people,
is that he had his eyes ona lot of this stuff, you
know, So that that means fromfrom the origins when he got it to
the end or the room it cameout of, the person that picks it

(02:46:26):
up, where who dropped it off, the liaison, the process. There
must have been a process, righteven if it was even if it was
for a secret agent to walk downthe road, take a piece of chalk
out of their pocket, drop iton the ground, and step on the
chalk, leaving a big scuff mark. Knowing for the other agent that this
is the bar that he's going togo into. Because he had to watch
five loops. They would have beensome sort of process. They would have

(02:46:46):
recognized that he would have known aboutthat. They would have you know,
it's something would be going on.And uh and that that that's almost unbelievable.
The guy that is responsible for itcan't recall that major detail. Shouldn't
be continuous. Steve right. Ionly went very few times, and most

(02:47:07):
of the time I went to industries, like when we went out Nick MacArthur
very bad, the general TRUDEO goand I'd go with it. So I
would go there the many time Trudeausay disappeared take off Phil. But even
more important, the scientists at thecompany. There's not one name the scientist

(02:47:28):
who who who can verify you seeif if anybody said, if you have
a note, I remember Sue said, he handed me this fascinating material.
Uh, you know, reporting people. And I remember vividly how I was
excited by this. And my nameis Someone said, and I was an

(02:47:48):
all, say, but you'd havea name of some human being, and
most people it would support your story. I think in most cases, well,
there have be somebody at Sperry Randwho would who could, or a
widow, or somebody today who couldsay I will never forget today. This
material came to us that was sofastome then, and it led to a

(02:48:11):
major breakthrough. I'm not I cannotgo into what the breakthrough was. I
hope that there was somewhere like that, because I have to be other once
the story doesn't hold water, Ihave to be people. I never checked
those. We'll see you make claims, and I mean in the book,
whoever wrote you know you say atthe end there comes a time when one

(02:48:31):
could say one's planet, one's species, and the free world is a gigantic
claim. No one that I haveever read has made a claim like that.
Ever, maybe Jesus Christ made aclaim like that. Nobody. And
when you make a claim like that, you have to have some names.
I never got involved in that area. Well, but you see the problem

(02:48:52):
here, then, is that thebook gives a different tone. The book
makes this seem like a single handedoperation on your part, people involved,
No I know. But but butbut when you say I saved the planet,
not we, I saved the planet, not we, I hope say
that I saved unfortunate way ed,can I can we just address the that

(02:49:18):
that one part right there, Imean his reaction right there alone is terrifying.
I'm not terrifying, but it's it'salmost I saved the planet unfortunate people
involved. No, I know,but but but but when you say,
it's almost like saved the planets,not we, I saved the planet,

(02:49:39):
not we, I hope say thatI saved the planet unfortunately, Go ahead,
Steve. Almost makes you wonder ifyou ever read the book. I
also feel kind of bad that Idon't know that his you know, I
don't know his state of mind,you know, in this scenario where I

(02:50:03):
I yeah, I mean sure,but I mean no, you're right about
yours? Yeah, I mean,this guy promoted his story, he promoted
his book. He did it ata time when Roswell, in particular,
was very much in the public's faceand mind. The United States Air Force

(02:50:31):
was doing a Roswell investigation very publicly, you know, the X Files.
Independence Day. All these things weregoing on when Corso decided to get his
book out there, or when hewas finally successful in getting a book out
there, we should say, andhe certainly was culpable I mean, he

(02:50:54):
certainly had the mental acuity to nobodywas doing and the responses that he was
giving, and it's just his hisanswers are very very telling because, as
we talked about before, he keepsthrowing it off onto while it must have
been the guy who wrote the bookwith me, you know, and you
know, I think it. Ican almost put myself in Corsto's shoes.

(02:51:16):
And this is a guy that reallydid have an interesting career, right,
A verifiably interesting career, right,pretty pretty neat job. He was definitely
a high ranking figure back in theday, right in the fifties and forties,
in sixties, so he had avery interesting career. But I can

(02:51:39):
certainly imagine at this time in hislife, you know, decades after he's
retired, and he probably had avery meager pension at that point, and
I don't think he had much money. And he's very candid about the fact
that he did the book to leavesomething for his kids, and I think
he's being very honest in that,right. I think that he saw an

(02:52:03):
opportunity financially to make some money,and not only that, but an opportunity
it's for you know, ego gloryor whatever you want to call it.
Right, this is a guy thathad a really illustrious career in the military,
and no one even knew who hewas. No one knew the things
that he did outside of his family, and even they probably didn't many of

(02:52:24):
them. So let's say care orno, you know, care enough to
know the details of Meanwhile, hesees all kinds of people getting all kinds
of public attention and book deals andmovie deals for bullshit alien stories. All
right, Yeah, I mean Ican imagine it. It's not it's not

(02:52:45):
hard. It's not I mean,it's it's to even I feel like I
feel like I insult the audience everytime I have to say there's only a
little chance of that happening. Like, I feel like I'm insulting everyone in
tellence, because the fact the matteris people lyle the goddamn time. But
everything they get I joke about alltime. I literally had a bit about
it. I can't. I mean, I'm sure the first time someone reported

(02:53:05):
a burning bush and was like itspoke to me, someone immediately stow Up
was like, oh yeah, wellthe whole forest talk to me. It
was on fire. It told meeverything, Like you know, like it's
this one uppy thing that people cannotstop doing. And uh, and it's
just it's like that, you know, I don't want to believe that to
be true, but I don't wantto. I would never sit here and

(02:53:26):
hope that and you know, Iwouldn't be so neat naive to suggest that's
not even a slight possibile. It'sa very large one. And and you
know, to be fair, Idon't I don't want to get conspiratorial,
but like it's almost like they pickeda person whose job would have been so
ambiguous in the in the in thespecifics uh that he could just ride it

(02:53:50):
out and if he was involved,I don't, I don't know. I
hate I didn't even start this way. In fact, my mind literally just
froze up when numb when I triedto add a conspiracy towards it. I
just don't believe a story. Idon't even think it's slightly possible. With
the information out there. You cango to the freaking labs. You can
see what they've contributed and all thepeople that came before them. None of
these inventions that he claims just sprangup, They just sprang up for people

(02:54:13):
that don't care to research like theycame from other places. These all depend
on other stuff like light in atube. That's not new. That's just
being finding a practical application in businessand stuff and in commercial industry and military.
All right, anyway, Sorry,let's get you said. Just think
I came out and they've caused mea lot of difficulty. I never got

(02:54:35):
the chance to look at the finalgally. If I looked at the funding
gown with all of these simple changein a matter if they represented, have
you considered writing sure all of thesethings out and saying this is incorrect,
this is interct this is correct,this is I'm doing that now. It
should be done, not incorrect,but I'm doing that. No Burns Is

(02:55:00):
asked me what you just asked me, And I've never discussed with him these
are crucial issues there. Burns neverasked me how I knew the information that
I was telling him. My coauthor never asked me how I knew the
information that I was telling him throughoutthis book. And you know what,

(02:55:20):
Hopkins, he it's very again.It really underscores how he does his thing
right because all he wants to knowis, well, what were the names
you know, what were the namesof the people that you met and talked
to? What did they look likehere? Right? Because if you tell
me that, then that would beproof, that would be something to go

(02:55:41):
off of, right as if like, of course I really did give him
names, it wouldn't be anything morethan some people with some stories if we
even talk to those people. Right. And for Bud Hopkins, his whole
thing is telling stories, telling storiesabout people. And it's not about Okay,

(02:56:01):
let's get documents, let's get evidence. He's not asking Corso, Okay,
what documentation can you show me?You know, what proof do you
have? What pictures do you have? Like what what can you prove to
me that you know you did thesethings with? You know? And the
easiest questions that he's giving him thisCourso is still okay and even answer like

(02:56:22):
that's how thin the story is,right, Like he doesn't even know where
these things went to or who tookthem there or anything like this is a
guy that was allegedly in charge ofprogram. He doesn't know. That's something
I Yeah, I'm just trying toput myself in that position and just see
see it from his eyes in anyway. But it's it's almost impossible because

(02:56:43):
unless, of course, you know, we can Dad talk around this.
But it could have been like aseries of security measures where you no longer
know at a certain point, evenif you're in charge, because it's need
to know, and if you everget captured and have to say something,
or you can in fact sell theseideas off to someone else or tell people,
leak people's secrets. I've heard ofpeople running operations that don't know what
every operation. And it even happenedwith Alexando and his boss. Remember that

(02:57:05):
whole story there from his IG complaintand what he was allegedly doing, but
allegedly allegedly the same scenario right herewith this guy. But going back to
him and the way he acts.Firstly, I do agree with with Guyetano
in the chat there there he youknow, give the old man a chance

(02:57:26):
to say something. But then whenhe does say something, he says that's
in there, whoa who wrote that? He's acting just a surprise, But
it's also like he reminds me ofsomeone who thought he could outsmart everyone is
just as fast as possible until itgets to the nitty gritty details and uh,
and it's happened so often you followyou, so as much as my
heart wants to go to it,he could be telling the truth about or

(02:57:50):
there could be something here. Itjust goes right back to that sour taste
of No, he's actually getting like, just like everyone else, regardless of
where they originate from, the samething happens. He crumbles under any type
of scrutiny because it's there. Sothere's so many obvious holes with it,
and uh and and it's also therewas no Internet for people to instantly go,

(02:58:11):
hey, wait a second, wherewhere did the laser come from?
Where what did they base they workoff of? You know, like it's
just it's a it's a you knowWhatice, Steve, Remember when you were
a kid, you could say Iswear in the Holy maybe not. I
don't not know about you, butwe used to say. It used to
be you could swear the Holy Bible. Remember that, and people and you
couldn't be lying. That's it.I swear to God or I swear to

(02:58:33):
God. Be more accurate. Iguess for everyone, I swear to God.
And then it was over them.Now of course it's Google. But
Steve, I appreciate your show helpingus, uh, you know, giving
us that perspective on the show,and I think we'll do some work on
on Hopkins and Keen and stuff inthe future, and if you'd like to
be involved with that, please pleasedo uh, absolutely, absolutely anytime,

(02:58:56):
anytime. I love your show,and I really appreciate all the effort that
you put into, you know,doing it and bringing the information and your
research and things that you're finding,and the comments and ideas that you have
on the topic. There aren't verymany people that are taking the time and

(02:59:16):
effort to represent the you know,more skeptical or scrutinous side of the topic,
and I appreciate everybody who does,especially you. Thank you. I'm
not sure, Recahon, if I'mjust skeptical or or I'm so stubborn that
I refuse to move, I don'tknow, but I do appreciate, you
know, actually get everyone tuning into hear Steve's words in mine. I'm

(02:59:37):
not a super skeptic in the sensethat I don't believe anything. I don't
live and disbelief everything I hear.That'd be ridiculous. I wouldn't leave the
house. But I do have rearreserved reservations about you know, how much
time my life. I've given upbelieving in something that has, you know,
thoroughly been gutted nowadays, and whatthat means to where I'm at And
anyways, all right, Steve,Steve's one of the people out that that

(03:00:00):
I turned to often on Twitter tosee something rather accurate about something that I
used to think meant something else.You know, Steve, you compliment me.
I'm gonna compliment you. First off. Let me ask you this real
quick though, what do you thinkof what's your thoughts on dark journalists?
Oh? Man, he's just anothercontent creator. He's, you know,

(03:00:20):
exploiting information and people's beliefs to createcontent and generate profit. You know,
I don't know what is and youknow, real beliefs are everybody's subjective and
sensational. And in every single waythat UFO promoters that he tends to rail
against ore, you know, he'sjust a little a little more refined,

(03:00:45):
I guess. And I think hecaters to a specific sector of the UFO
conspiracy community, and I think that'sall that he's really interested as of right
now. But I don't know,the guys, maybe I'm wrong. Steve.

(03:01:05):
Thank you very much, I mean, and thank you very much for
another super chat. I appreciate itat big time today, all those euros,
and I wanted to say before yougo like, I'm gonna go,
Steve, since you complimented me andmaybe feel weird, I'm gonna compliment you
here seriously. Then please keep uplooking into the stuff and highlighting these things
from the past and whatever you're on, because it seems every topic or every

(03:01:28):
space and time in which you're lookingat that topic, you reveal a many
number of things for all of usout there. So we appreciate that,
and I think you're just gonna keepgrowing. Obviously it's the hard road,
right, as we've spoken about inthe past. It's like this is you
know, it's you're it's gonna bethe toughest rout to take to get any
type of awareness as being like thisis all nonsense and here's why it's not

(03:01:50):
fun for people. So thank youfor keeping out. Yeah, And I
mean it's it's like obviously it's likemy hobby, it's like my fa of
love. But you know, Ifeel like I owe like some gratitude to
the people that came before me thatreally put the effort and time into doing

(03:02:11):
good research. On things related tothe topic, you know, because if
not, I'd still be believing inyou know, God knows what, probably,
and I just feel like it's it'ssuch a thankless task that the few
of us who have an interest atleast, I feel that I kind of
owe it to kind of pay itback a little bit to try and contribute

(03:02:31):
what I can or at least helpspread good information while I can, and
I plan on continuing to do that. Thank you, sir, all right,
Steve good chat Man, Good chat. I hope everyone in the chat
appreciated that. Do me a favoritehelp out by liking, subscribing, sharing
the show. Come on, let'sget us over this number which I feel

(03:02:52):
like it's kind of odd that we'vebeen stuck here for so long and it
just keeps going up and down overagain, over and over again. Anyways,
my friends, piece of love,as I usually say, look for
things how they actually are versus asthey appear to be. I don't leave
you know, my own freaking endingand keep it weird, to keep your
third eye peeled. Reckon, mate, you'd like to see home was naked,

(03:03:16):
And I quote once again from Genesiswill be I've been on a lot
of shows, but there's no bettercrowd than is Ray here. Would you
give me welcome to the most famousentertainer. This wis at no point in

(03:03:41):
your rambling, incoherent response even closeto anything that could be considered a rational
fact. I still think it cameout here just to cover your ass,
to make it sound like a fuckingfat, plumpy, delicious cock. Wait,
this SE's empty. Ricon, ricon. You know male authors are obsessed

(03:04:11):
with female bodies, going on andon about their webbed feet and soft insulated
I'm sorry female, Oh, maleotterters, male ottters,

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