Kelley Brower, New York based licensed mental health counselor (LMHC) and center rehabilitation counselor riffs about the Gottman methods she has learned and practiced, understanding emotional intelligence, assessment technique and empathy development. Visit www.psychinthecity.com
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey, welcome back to Success to Significance. I'm Rick Tokeeney.
We appreciate you all joining us again and this show
is brought to you by Return Valets along with Edward
Jones Financial Advisors, and we appreciate their support of this show. Hey,
on today's program is Kelly Brower, licensed Mental health Counselor,
(00:32):
Certified Professional Coach, and Certified Rehabilitation Counselor. She's based in
New York specializing in couples counseling, psychotherapy, and life coaching.
Most important to us, she is a graduate, maybe a
three or four time graduate of the Gotman Organization and
(00:55):
the Gotmans are some of our heroes, so we are
so glad to have you on today.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome Kelley, Oh, thank you, and Yeah, Gottman he is.
He's about as rock star as you can get in
this world.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
We are talking to you today and we're gonna be
discussing emotional intelligence. So let's start with the kind of
a baseline definition of what is emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, emotional intelligence is a it's the ability to be
aware of your emotions while they're happening. It's it's being
able to control your emotions, and it's being able to
connect with people that is effective and you get what
you want and you need out of the interactions.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, that is about as simple an explanation I've ever heard.
And why is it so crucial then to have emotional
intelligence to help maintain healthy relationships?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, it involves like four core competencies and and and
most of them are about it's about learning how to
regulate your emotions, because you know, when we're talking about
difficult subjects, says in relationships, difficult subject can be, you know,
an argument over a Thanksgiving turkey leg I mean, I've
(02:16):
seen it all.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
As a couple's counselor. But people get triggered very easily.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
And when we're triggered, everyone starts firing shots and everyone's defensive,
and then nobody listens. And then it is, as my
Russian lawyer says, disaster.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
What are you doing with a Russian lawyer?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I used to be in film and TV production.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That was a former career as and my lawyer was like,
I what if the producer does this?
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh, you do not have to worry about this? No, no, no, oh,
what about this disaster?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
That is almost Natasha from Boris and Natasa.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
It's from Rocky that's a riot.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Okay, we need to get back to the serious stuff here.
What methods do you use to evaluate emotional intelligence and individuals,
especially in therapy sessions.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, you know what I do is I have them
share what I call a silly squabble, and I have
the you know, I have them sort of kind of
share a fight that they've recently experienced, and you know,
once they start telling it, they kind of get right
into it and then the fight unfolds before me. Because
most of the time people have fights and they you know,
(03:45):
nowhere in life where we taught how to repair these fights.
So that's so when I see them fight and I
see this silly squabble, I can figure out what the
work for each person is to do. Because when one
person starts sharing something, almost inevitably the other person fires
back their defensive or they say you don't know, no, no,
(04:06):
that's not what happens. So no one really ever listens
to each other. So it's really about teaching them how
to listen and how to take responsibility for their own actions,
and that those are the two most difficult things I
think human beings know how to do complex mathematical computations
(04:27):
are nothing compared to listening and take responsibility.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Okay, So that being the case, I would left for
you to give an example of a silly squabble without
giving away all the client information so our listeners can
truly understand what that means.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, so let's see, I have a million of them.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Good question.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
You can even do it in your Russian dialect.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Right, Well, I could probably choose one from my own
life too.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I remember being upset with my partner because I didn't
like how she interacted with someone at a party, and
so we had a post party discussion and I was
telling her, you know, I think you talk too much
(05:32):
and that you need to learn to listen more.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
And she was like, what are you talking about. I
don't I don't talk too much, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
She goes on and on about how she doesn't talk
too much, and I'm like, you're kind of talking now
too much, you know this that's kind of what I'm
you know, And she was like, oh, uh okay, And
I said, so if you could just kind of listen
to how I experienced that interaction, and then she was
(06:03):
like all right, and I said, so I'm sitting there
and I had some things I wanted to share, but
I couldn't really get in because you were chiming in
with lots of stuff. And then she was like okay,
and I said, so, you know, it's not that big
of a deal, but I would like you to just
be a little more aware that sometimes I would like
(06:23):
to actually participate in a conversation.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And then she was able to hear that.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And I said it really nice and very gently, and
she was able to hear that. So but that's a
silly thing. But we did get into it for a
good you know, ten minutes. Where it turned it turned
into it like, well, you know what you did at
the party? You ate that whole thing of cheese and
didn't leave anyone. And I was like, that's true, but
I was starving.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I hadn't had dinner. She goes defensive, and I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Right, at least you presented it with some grace and dignity,
and you you I think it was well done, well positioned.
You know, when you talk about enhancing emotional awareness, I
want to know some strategies that you recommend for individuals
to become more aware of their own emotions and those
(07:20):
of their partners.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, And that's it's kind of like the Holy Grail
because how do you know, you know, our emotions they
come on like a wave and then we're in it.
So the trick is is you got to you got
to catch the small waves. You have to start with
small stakes, like like you know, you're you're carrying a
(07:43):
bunch of things from the grocery store and you drop
something and you're like, oh my god, I dropped the
canna tomatoes, And if you could just realize, like, oh
my god, I just totally flipped out over a can
of tomatoes.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
All right.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So I always think tell everyone, when you notice something
a silly thing, be curious.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
So being curious is the first tool I give. Be curious.
Oh okay, so I just freaked out.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Over a cant of tomatoes, all right, all right, let
me just sort of breathe and kind of reset because
it was just a can to me. It's not like
I had the football pace with the nuclear codes. It
was just tomatoes, and it's sort of put it into perspective.
So the first step is really be curious when you
lose it. Just okay, so that happened, and try not
(08:31):
to judge yourself you know, I think judging ourselves and
that sort of inner critic that tells us like you're
the worst piece of doo doo on the planet, you
shouldn't have done that. Having that voice, I think that's
why we avoid taking responsibility, because we don't want to
feel horrible and like we're the worst person that ever
(08:53):
existed in humanity.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well said recently, I was going through some classes on therapy,
not with a therapist, but it might as well have been.
And it became crystal clear that when we were talking
to people and trying to help them, that their parents'
(09:19):
ability to resolve a conflict was still reflected in them,
and that they never had a role model for resolution.
I love your comment on that and how someone can
actually stop that from a generation perspective of just because
(09:39):
mom and dad fought it out doesn't mean that we
have to, right.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You know, in the science world, when they study animals,
it's called imprinting. Like the the little ducks they learn
how to walk like their parents. They follow and they
do everything that the mother and the father ducks do
so and we even do the same thing. That's all
we know, that's we that's all we see. So we
go into our relationships with those same strategies that we
(10:07):
saw our parents doing, and we don't really know that
they don't work until the relationship it explodes, and then
it's like what happened. So the first step is, I guess,
you know, realizing that number one, the strategies you are
using are not effective, You're not getting what you need
and you're not being hurt. So that's the first step,
(10:30):
And the second step is to understand where those strategies
came from. That you know, you're not a terrible person.
You were just doing what you saw happen in your home.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You're just following or whatever happens on the street. I mean,
it doesn't necessarily have to come from our home. It
usually does at the beginning. But you know, we see
it in TV, we see it on the street, we
see we see these bad strategies everywhere. So acknowledging that,
you know what, these are strategies that I can change
and shift and you know it's it's it's it has
(11:03):
nothing to do with me not being a good person.
So I guess the next step after that is once
you realize, all right, these are difficult strategies. What are
things that I can do differently mm hmm. So and
you know, I think always the first the first go
to for doing I think anything different in terms of
(11:25):
any kind of relationship snaffoos or struggles is the first
one is to listen. Listen and try to understand what
you're what the person you're talking to, your partner, your boss,
your mom, your brother, listen to what they're saying. There
was a great book in uh I think in the
(11:46):
nineties called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by
Stephen Covey, remember that book way back?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Instead of a trainer for the Covey group, Ah, that's
so cool. I actually was taught by the Stephen Covey.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Are you serious?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Oh wow, that's what's wrong and right with me. But
go ahead with your story.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Well you probably know this line and I never forgot it.
I just and I use it in my practice all
the time. He says, seek first to understand and then
be understood. So when we can hear someone else, they
calm down, they feel heard. They know that we get it,
and that we can have a little empathy and be like,
(12:34):
oh I understand, like you know when I said X,
you felt y Z and ABC and yeah, that must
have been terrible. And uh, you know, I I have
I feel really bad that I was the cause of that.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
For you.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, listening empathetically and that's that's such a big deal.
I want to know what the Gotment group has taught
you from level one, two, and three when it comes
to listening intently.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Oh yeah, the gotments are big. I did my Level
three training, the final level with John and Julie and
I yeah, I actually got to meet John because I
meet a little movie about the four Horsemen of the
Apocalypse and it's four communication strategies that.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Lead to divorce or separation and I made it. It was
kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And in level two his clinical director showed John, and
so in level three he said, would you like to
meet him?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And I'm one of four hundred.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Therapists in this big hotel conference space. And I was like, okay,
so meet the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yes, I would love to be a godman.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And I did and he the clinical director, introduced me,
and he was so cute and so funny, and he said,
you know, this is the she wrote the and directed
that little movie on the four Horsemen and he stood up.
He goes, oh, that was so funny, and he thrust
his hand out. He said, I'm John Gottman, and I
was like, I know.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Who you are.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So but but but listening is a big part of
their their method and and and uh, they have very
specific tools that I give to my clients and it's
it's it's it's listening tools and learning how to reflect
back what your partner's saying. And I will give the
(14:34):
listener and the speaker tools to my couples, and the
speakers like to do X y Z and the listeners
to just listen and reflect back. And then the speaker
starts talking, and then I go to the listener and
I'm like, okay, so would you like to respond? And
you know, take a look at those those rules and
they're like, uh, yeah, you have you got it totally wrong.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
And I'm like, I don't think that's in one of these,
you know. I think the first thing is is just kind.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Of repeat what you heard, like literally what your ears heard.
So yeah, and it's the classic, you know, it's it's
learning how to listen, how to reflect back what you hear,
how you understand their experience. And then and then owning
up to it, owning up to your share of the conflict.
(15:25):
And the scientific word for kind of owning your own behavior.
Got men's word for that is called accepting influence. You
accept the influence of your partner.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I hear you.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I understand that when I raised my voice at the
grocery store that you felt really embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I get it. I wish, I wish I wouldn't have
done that.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Accept the influence.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Okay, Kelly, we are at the halfway point of this show.
Tell our listeners where they can contact you for any
of your services.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Uh, yes, so they can find me at psych in
Thecity dot com and that is spelled psyc. There is
no h psyc in Thecity dot com.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
Perfect in an era where online shopping is thriving but
time for returns is scarce. Return Valets brings a touch.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
Of luxury to your life by simplifying the returns process
introducing return vallets your premier online returns concierge service catering
to the multifamily, commercial and residential markets.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Okay, we are on the air with Kelly Brower. This
is success to significance in if you caught the first
program with Kelly. She's a licensed mental health counselor, certified
professional coach, certified Rehabilitation counselor in New York, and she's
a black belt in Gotman Level three, which is unbelievable.
(17:04):
So it's great to have you on, Kelly, and I
appreciate you answering all of our crazy questions on the
first show. And let's start this second program. In case
people didn't hear you on our first time, tell them
kind of the baseline definition of emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, So emotional intelligence has four separate critical skill sets,
and one is self awareness, and self awareness is the
ability to be present and understand how and recognize when
your emotions come up and and then being able to
(17:44):
regulate there. So it's understanding recognizing your emotions and then
wrangling them. And then the second part is self management,
learning how to manage your emotions, and that's kind of
the wrangling part, uh. And then the third kind is
social awareness. It's learning how your your behavior affects other people.
(18:08):
And it's it's about uh uh expressing, learning how to
listen to others and express empathy and understanding for how
your behavior affects them. And then The last one is
social regulation, and that's learning how to work together, monitoring
(18:32):
your own emotions and when someone else has their emotional reactions.
It's really about being able to sit with their emotions,
not let let it infect you, sit and be able
to hear them, you know, just as long as they're
not too out of control, hear what they're saying, because
a lot of times we raise our voices because we
feel like we're not heard, and then when we raise
(18:52):
our voices the other person's ears is like, you know,
it feels very dangerous. It creates, you know, a no
safety zone when the emotions escalate. So so the last
part of emotional intelligence is learning how to sit with
others emotions and not be a reactive.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's so powerful if if all of that is true,
and I think it is, Why in the world is
emotional intelligence.
Speaker 7 (19:22):
Not a part of dating apps.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I didn't see that one coming.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, you know, that's a great, great question, I guess,
because you know, the dating experts haven't really caught up
with the science because you know, gotment science is all
fairly new, it's only in the it's only in the
last fifty years. But he really has He's been he's
(19:49):
been studying it for fifty six years. But really in
the life, I want to say, the last ten to
fifteen years has has Gotman's work really start to get
out there and now and you know, we therapist, now
we know some of these tools. We have these tools,
and now we're starting to teach them. And I think
people only get these tools when they go to couples counseling.
(20:09):
The dating apps, like, I mean they could the dating
apps could It would be nice cash cow if they
knew what they were doing.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
Yeah, dating apps, So I've read have a ninety percent
failure rate. And I read a book the other day
by Judson Swhyhart, who in nineteen seventy seven was making
people aware.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Of eight love languages, not five like doctor Chapman h
It's like, why are we as a culture missing key
pieces of data like Judson had and like the Gotmans have,
and the divorce rate still continues to climb. It seems
(21:00):
like that there's a an information gap going on that
people can't even ingest the latest and greatest advice in wisdom,
which is public I mean, it's it's like public domain.
It's out there. Why what's what's your perspective.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
On that, well, I think I think it is out there,
but I think, you know, learning communication, you know, it's
like learning another language, it's like learning French, and it
seems very daunting. And you know, part of emotional intelligence
and part of you know, being in a great relationship
is learning how to say you're sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
And nobody wants to do that.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
It's so true, it's so true. All right, let's let's
get back to three final questions to you, and this
one first, based on your experience, how does a couple's
emotional intelligence correlate with their overall relationship happiness and so.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Well, basically, those are the skills that I teach in
my practice, and emotional intelligence brings it. First of all,
they learn how to repair their relationship riffs. You know,
when you don't repair the relationship, you don't know how
to do it. You know, each fight goes unresolved in
the next one and then it's like this big wall
(22:27):
of resentment and then they can barely see each other.
So when you know how to repair, in that repair,
there is real emotional intimacy. You know, women are always
yearning for emotional intimacy, and when men join in and
they experience it, it brings them together in such a close way.
(22:50):
And I always tell the men, I'm like, you know,
it's in your best interest to focus on emotional intimacy
if you want to have sex your whole life.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yep, good point.
Speaker 8 (23:03):
Yeah, And they're like, okay, so I yeah, you learn those,
you know, good skills because you know, when you hear
hear her and she feels hurt, she's going to be
all over you, like a cheap seat.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Like white on rice exactly. Let's talk about two common
obstacles that individuals face when working to improve their emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Mmmm. Well, I think the first one is the well,
I think it's the thoughts and feelings that come up.
And you know, the thoughts are all the negative thinking,
and it's all those messages we got in our early childhood,
whether it was from parents, brothers, sisters, you know, neighborhood
(23:52):
kids at school. You know that we're we're stupid, we're mean,
we're to this, we're not enough that. So so that
negative thinking is probably the first obstacle I have to
deal with with all of my clients. And then the
second one is is the feelings that come up around
the negative thinking. It's it's the emotional regulation part, because
(24:15):
we start thinking some really unpleasant thoughts and we start
the minute we start revisiting all the mistakes of our past,
we go down a rabbit hole of all different kinds
of you know, I'm the worst human being on the
planet type of motion, sabotaging.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yes, yep, Okay, Kelly. Do you know why you're on
today's show?
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I do not.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
We When we received information about you, you were pegged
by our team as somebody who's gone from success to significance.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Ah hmm.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And we'd love for you to comment on on that
very vague description that I just gave you. What does
success mean to you and what does significance mean to you?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Well?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I think success I feel like I've had for a while.
I've been I've been a couple's counselor for ten years,
and I've had success.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
And I know why I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Successful because I blend humor and creativity with science and
that seems to be a no brainer. And I don't
know why everybody to do that, but whatever, So I
understand the success significance is is I think people are
starting to you know, when I present science and a
little humor.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I think that's raising.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
My level to significance because I teach my clients how
to look at themselves with a light lens, to be like,
all right, so I did some wonky stuff last Tuesday, Okay,
how can I do things different?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
So I think I think it's the humor in the
in the science combo platter that is helping me.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's so great. Yeah, that's so great. I'm so glad
that you you've joined us today. And I want to
know what you're going to do in the next five
years and what book you're going to write.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yes, I'm already working on a book on emotional regulation actually,
which will encompass everything we've been.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Talking about today. Uh. And I and I'm and I
mean talking about.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Specifically in relationships and how to manage relationships and how
to take relationships to a higher level. And and I've
been actually I've actually been writing. I didn't write for
I was always a writer. I wrote comedy, I did
all that stuff back in the day. But recently I
started writing some articles about some of this stuff I'm doing.
(26:55):
And so that's kind of giving me a little bit.
I'm kind of getting out that way. I wrote a
great piece for motherhood moment on gaslighting.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Oh my gosh, I know, it's so good. It's so good.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, it's it's it's really good because everyone uses gas lighting.
Like everyone's gaslighting everybody. She gaslighted me, he gaslight And
I'm like, first of all, that's not what's happening. Everyone
always has different perspectives. It doesn't mean they're gaslighting you.
So but then I talk about what it really is,
and you know the difference.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So you know that emotional regulation is the abbreviation is ER.
So is it the new er that we're going.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
To Well, I Daniel Goleman who kind of did did
all the early research and really got it out there
with his book Emotional Intelligence, he calls it EQ.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I know, yeah yeah, but regulation to me sounds like
it's a stove, it's an oven, A R E R.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Sounds like it's a medical procedure.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
But it's taking as some place, you know, so it's
a destination sort of. Yes, I think it's you know,
I would welcome if I saw a cover at a
bookstore it's an emotional regulation. I'd pick it up just
out of curiosity.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Can I tell you what the title? My book is
going to be Okay, it's called.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Ape shit, ape shit crazy.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yes, that's it's just it's it's just ape shit. And
then then then byline is something like, you know how
to wrangle your emotional bananas. I mean, it's going to
change one hundred different times by the time I get
a published, but it's it's along those lines.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
But it's going to be about e r.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
That cracks me up because my my life as an
author has been write the book and then argue about
the title for the next three months.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
What are we gonna what are we going to title this?
And it's like the final the final curtain. You know,
what are the alternatives to the book title?
Speaker 3 (29:14):
That's the only one I have so far.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, good, don't think of another one. Don't confuse the
the issue. Okay, right, that's so great. It's it's been
wonderful to have you on give out your information one
more time so our audience can contact you.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, Kelly J. Brower.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
And my website is psych in Thecity dot com and
it's psych p S y C. There's no age psych
in Thecity dot com.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Thank you for making a difference, Kelly Brower. We we
think that you are in the zone of significance.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Ah, thank you so much. It's been it's been great
hanging out with you Rick.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Likewise, likewise, folks, we help you have a good week
and as usual we will you success on your way
to significance. Have a grade
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Mm hm
Hey, welcome back to Success to Significance. I'm Rick Tokeeney.
We appreciate you all joining us again and this show
is brought to you by Return Valets along with Edward
Jones Financial Advisors, and we appreciate their support of this show. Hey,
on today's program is Kelly Brower, licensed Mental health Counselor,
(00:32):
Certified Professional Coach, and Certified Rehabilitation Counselor. She's based in
New York specializing in couples counseling, psychotherapy, and life coaching.
Most important to us, she is a graduate, maybe a
three or four time graduate of the Gotman Organization and
(00:55):
the Gotmans are some of our heroes, so we are
so glad to have you on today.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome Kelley, Oh, thank you, and Yeah, Gottman he is.
He's about as rock star as you can get in
this world.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
We are talking to you today and we're gonna be
discussing emotional intelligence. So let's start with the kind of
a baseline definition of what is emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, emotional intelligence is a it's the ability to be
aware of your emotions while they're happening. It's it's being
able to control your emotions, and it's being able to
connect with people that is effective and you get what
you want and you need out of the interactions.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, that is about as simple an explanation I've ever heard.
And why is it so crucial then to have emotional
intelligence to help maintain healthy relationships?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, it involves like four core competencies and and and
most of them are about it's about learning how to
regulate your emotions, because you know, when we're talking about
difficult subjects, says in relationships, difficult subject can be, you know,
an argument over a Thanksgiving turkey leg I mean, I've
(02:16):
seen it all.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
As a couple's counselor. But people get triggered very easily.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
And when we're triggered, everyone starts firing shots and everyone's defensive,
and then nobody listens. And then it is, as my
Russian lawyer says, disaster.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
What are you doing with a Russian lawyer?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
I used to be in film and TV production.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That was a former career as and my lawyer was like,
I what if the producer does this?
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh, you do not have to worry about this? No, no, no, oh,
what about this disaster?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
That is almost Natasha from Boris and Natasa.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
It's from Rocky that's a riot.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Okay, we need to get back to the serious stuff here.
What methods do you use to evaluate emotional intelligence and individuals,
especially in therapy sessions.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, you know what I do is I have them
share what I call a silly squabble, and I have
the you know, I have them sort of kind of
share a fight that they've recently experienced, and you know,
once they start telling it, they kind of get right
into it and then the fight unfolds before me. Because
most of the time people have fights and they you know,
(03:45):
nowhere in life where we taught how to repair these fights.
So that's so when I see them fight and I
see this silly squabble, I can figure out what the
work for each person is to do. Because when one
person starts sharing something, almost inevitably the other person fires
back their defensive or they say you don't know, no, no,
(04:06):
that's not what happens. So no one really ever listens
to each other. So it's really about teaching them how
to listen and how to take responsibility for their own actions,
and that those are the two most difficult things I
think human beings know how to do complex mathematical computations
(04:27):
are nothing compared to listening and take responsibility.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Okay, So that being the case, I would left for
you to give an example of a silly squabble without
giving away all the client information so our listeners can
truly understand what that means.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, so let's see, I have a million of them.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Good question.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
You can even do it in your Russian dialect.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Right, Well, I could probably choose one from my own
life too.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I remember being upset with my partner because I didn't
like how she interacted with someone at a party, and
so we had a post party discussion and I was
telling her, you know, I think you talk too much
(05:32):
and that you need to learn to listen more.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
And she was like, what are you talking about. I
don't I don't talk too much, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
She goes on and on about how she doesn't talk
too much, and I'm like, you're kind of talking now
too much, you know this that's kind of what I'm
you know, And she was like, oh, uh okay, And
I said, so if you could just kind of listen
to how I experienced that interaction, and then she was
(06:03):
like all right, and I said, so I'm sitting there
and I had some things I wanted to share, but
I couldn't really get in because you were chiming in
with lots of stuff. And then she was like okay,
and I said, so, you know, it's not that big
of a deal, but I would like you to just
be a little more aware that sometimes I would like
(06:23):
to actually participate in a conversation.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And then she was able to hear that.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And I said it really nice and very gently, and
she was able to hear that. So but that's a
silly thing. But we did get into it for a
good you know, ten minutes. Where it turned it turned
into it like, well, you know what you did at
the party? You ate that whole thing of cheese and
didn't leave anyone. And I was like, that's true, but
I was starving.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I hadn't had dinner. She goes defensive, and I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Right, at least you presented it with some grace and dignity,
and you you I think it was well done, well positioned.
You know, when you talk about enhancing emotional awareness, I
want to know some strategies that you recommend for individuals
to become more aware of their own emotions and those
(07:20):
of their partners.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, And that's it's kind of like the Holy Grail
because how do you know, you know, our emotions they
come on like a wave and then we're in it.
So the trick is is you got to you got
to catch the small waves. You have to start with
small stakes, like like you know, you're you're carrying a
(07:43):
bunch of things from the grocery store and you drop
something and you're like, oh my god, I dropped the
canna tomatoes, And if you could just realize, like, oh
my god, I just totally flipped out over a can
of tomatoes.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
All right.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So I always think tell everyone, when you notice something
a silly thing, be curious.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
So being curious is the first tool I give. Be curious.
Oh okay, so I just freaked out.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Over a cant of tomatoes, all right, all right, let
me just sort of breathe and kind of reset because
it was just a can to me. It's not like
I had the football pace with the nuclear codes. It
was just tomatoes, and it's sort of put it into perspective.
So the first step is really be curious when you
lose it. Just okay, so that happened, and try not
(08:31):
to judge yourself you know, I think judging ourselves and
that sort of inner critic that tells us like you're
the worst piece of doo doo on the planet, you
shouldn't have done that. Having that voice, I think that's
why we avoid taking responsibility, because we don't want to
feel horrible and like we're the worst person that ever
(08:53):
existed in humanity.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well said recently, I was going through some classes on therapy,
not with a therapist, but it might as well have been.
And it became crystal clear that when we were talking
to people and trying to help them, that their parents'
(09:19):
ability to resolve a conflict was still reflected in them,
and that they never had a role model for resolution.
I love your comment on that and how someone can
actually stop that from a generation perspective of just because
(09:39):
mom and dad fought it out doesn't mean that we
have to, right.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You know, in the science world, when they study animals,
it's called imprinting. Like the the little ducks they learn
how to walk like their parents. They follow and they
do everything that the mother and the father ducks do
so and we even do the same thing. That's all
we know, that's we that's all we see. So we
go into our relationships with those same strategies that we
(10:07):
saw our parents doing, and we don't really know that
they don't work until the relationship it explodes, and then
it's like what happened. So the first step is, I guess,
you know, realizing that number one, the strategies you are
using are not effective, You're not getting what you need
and you're not being hurt. So that's the first step,
(10:30):
And the second step is to understand where those strategies
came from. That you know, you're not a terrible person.
You were just doing what you saw happen in your home.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You're just following or whatever happens on the street. I mean,
it doesn't necessarily have to come from our home. It
usually does at the beginning. But you know, we see
it in TV, we see it on the street, we
see we see these bad strategies everywhere. So acknowledging that,
you know what, these are strategies that I can change
and shift and you know it's it's it's it has
(11:03):
nothing to do with me not being a good person.
So I guess the next step after that is once
you realize, all right, these are difficult strategies. What are
things that I can do differently mm hmm. So and
you know, I think always the first the first go
to for doing I think anything different in terms of
(11:25):
any kind of relationship snaffoos or struggles is the first
one is to listen. Listen and try to understand what
you're what the person you're talking to, your partner, your boss,
your mom, your brother, listen to what they're saying. There
was a great book in uh I think in the
(11:46):
nineties called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by
Stephen Covey, remember that book way back?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Instead of a trainer for the Covey group, Ah, that's
so cool. I actually was taught by the Stephen Covey.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Are you serious?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Oh wow, that's what's wrong and right with me. But
go ahead with your story.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Well you probably know this line and I never forgot it.
I just and I use it in my practice all
the time. He says, seek first to understand and then
be understood. So when we can hear someone else, they
calm down, they feel heard. They know that we get it,
and that we can have a little empathy and be like,
(12:34):
oh I understand, like you know when I said X,
you felt y Z and ABC and yeah, that must
have been terrible. And uh, you know, I I have
I feel really bad that I was the cause of that.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
For you.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, listening empathetically and that's that's such a big deal.
I want to know what the Gotment group has taught
you from level one, two, and three when it comes
to listening intently.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Oh yeah, the gotments are big. I did my Level
three training, the final level with John and Julie and
I yeah, I actually got to meet John because I
meet a little movie about the four Horsemen of the
Apocalypse and it's four communication strategies that.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Lead to divorce or separation and I made it. It was
kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And in level two his clinical director showed John, and
so in level three he said, would you like to
meet him?
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And I'm one of four hundred.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Therapists in this big hotel conference space. And I was like, okay,
so meet the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yes, I would love to be a godman.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And I did and he the clinical director, introduced me,
and he was so cute and so funny, and he said,
you know, this is the she wrote the and directed
that little movie on the four Horsemen and he stood up.
He goes, oh, that was so funny, and he thrust
his hand out. He said, I'm John Gottman, and I
was like, I know.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Who you are.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So but but but listening is a big part of
their their method and and and uh, they have very
specific tools that I give to my clients and it's
it's it's it's listening tools and learning how to reflect
back what your partner's saying. And I will give the
(14:34):
listener and the speaker tools to my couples, and the
speakers like to do X y Z and the listeners
to just listen and reflect back. And then the speaker
starts talking, and then I go to the listener and
I'm like, okay, so would you like to respond? And
you know, take a look at those those rules and
they're like, uh, yeah, you have you got it totally wrong.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
And I'm like, I don't think that's in one of these,
you know. I think the first thing is is just kind.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Of repeat what you heard, like literally what your ears heard.
So yeah, and it's the classic, you know, it's it's
learning how to listen, how to reflect back what you hear,
how you understand their experience. And then and then owning
up to it, owning up to your share of the conflict.
(15:25):
And the scientific word for kind of owning your own behavior.
Got men's word for that is called accepting influence. You
accept the influence of your partner.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I hear you.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I understand that when I raised my voice at the
grocery store that you felt really embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
I get it. I wish, I wish I wouldn't have
done that.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Accept the influence.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Okay, Kelly, we are at the halfway point of this show.
Tell our listeners where they can contact you for any
of your services.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Uh, yes, so they can find me at psych in
Thecity dot com and that is spelled psyc. There is
no h psyc in Thecity dot com.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
Perfect in an era where online shopping is thriving but
time for returns is scarce. Return Valets brings a touch.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
Of luxury to your life by simplifying the returns process
introducing return vallets your premier online returns concierge service catering
to the multifamily, commercial and residential markets.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Okay, we are on the air with Kelly Brower. This
is success to significance in if you caught the first
program with Kelly. She's a licensed mental health counselor, certified
professional coach, certified Rehabilitation counselor in New York, and she's
a black belt in Gotman Level three, which is unbelievable.
(17:04):
So it's great to have you on, Kelly, and I
appreciate you answering all of our crazy questions on the
first show. And let's start this second program. In case
people didn't hear you on our first time, tell them
kind of the baseline definition of emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, So emotional intelligence has four separate critical skill sets,
and one is self awareness, and self awareness is the
ability to be present and understand how and recognize when
your emotions come up and and then being able to
(17:44):
regulate there. So it's understanding recognizing your emotions and then
wrangling them. And then the second part is self management,
learning how to manage your emotions, and that's kind of
the wrangling part, uh. And then the third kind is
social awareness. It's learning how your your behavior affects other people.
(18:08):
And it's it's about uh uh expressing, learning how to
listen to others and express empathy and understanding for how
your behavior affects them. And then The last one is
social regulation, and that's learning how to work together, monitoring
(18:32):
your own emotions and when someone else has their emotional reactions.
It's really about being able to sit with their emotions,
not let let it infect you, sit and be able
to hear them, you know, just as long as they're
not too out of control, hear what they're saying, because
a lot of times we raise our voices because we
feel like we're not heard, and then when we raise
(18:52):
our voices the other person's ears is like, you know,
it feels very dangerous. It creates, you know, a no
safety zone when the emotions escalate. So so the last
part of emotional intelligence is learning how to sit with
others emotions and not be a reactive.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's so powerful if if all of that is true,
and I think it is, Why in the world is
emotional intelligence.
Speaker 7 (19:22):
Not a part of dating apps.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I didn't see that one coming.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, you know, that's a great, great question, I guess,
because you know, the dating experts haven't really caught up
with the science because you know, gotment science is all
fairly new, it's only in the it's only in the
last fifty years. But he really has He's been he's
(19:49):
been studying it for fifty six years. But really in
the life, I want to say, the last ten to
fifteen years has has Gotman's work really start to get
out there and now and you know, we therapist, now
we know some of these tools. We have these tools,
and now we're starting to teach them. And I think
people only get these tools when they go to couples counseling.
(20:09):
The dating apps, like, I mean they could the dating
apps could It would be nice cash cow if they
knew what they were doing.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
Yeah, dating apps, So I've read have a ninety percent
failure rate. And I read a book the other day
by Judson Swhyhart, who in nineteen seventy seven was making
people aware.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Of eight love languages, not five like doctor Chapman h
It's like, why are we as a culture missing key
pieces of data like Judson had and like the Gotmans have,
and the divorce rate still continues to climb. It seems
(21:00):
like that there's a an information gap going on that
people can't even ingest the latest and greatest advice in wisdom,
which is public I mean, it's it's like public domain.
It's out there. Why what's what's your perspective.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
On that, well, I think I think it is out there,
but I think, you know, learning communication, you know, it's
like learning another language, it's like learning French, and it
seems very daunting. And you know, part of emotional intelligence
and part of you know, being in a great relationship
is learning how to say you're sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
And nobody wants to do that.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
It's so true, it's so true. All right, let's let's
get back to three final questions to you, and this
one first, based on your experience, how does a couple's
emotional intelligence correlate with their overall relationship happiness and so.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Well, basically, those are the skills that I teach in
my practice, and emotional intelligence brings it. First of all,
they learn how to repair their relationship riffs. You know,
when you don't repair the relationship, you don't know how
to do it. You know, each fight goes unresolved in
the next one and then it's like this big wall
(22:27):
of resentment and then they can barely see each other.
So when you know how to repair, in that repair,
there is real emotional intimacy. You know, women are always
yearning for emotional intimacy, and when men join in and
they experience it, it brings them together in such a close way.
(22:50):
And I always tell the men, I'm like, you know,
it's in your best interest to focus on emotional intimacy
if you want to have sex your whole life.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yep, good point.
Speaker 8 (23:03):
Yeah, And they're like, okay, so I yeah, you learn those,
you know, good skills because you know, when you hear
hear her and she feels hurt, she's going to be
all over you, like a cheap seat.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Like white on rice exactly. Let's talk about two common
obstacles that individuals face when working to improve their emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Mmmm. Well, I think the first one is the well,
I think it's the thoughts and feelings that come up.
And you know, the thoughts are all the negative thinking,
and it's all those messages we got in our early childhood,
whether it was from parents, brothers, sisters, you know, neighborhood
(23:52):
kids at school. You know that we're we're stupid, we're mean,
we're to this, we're not enough that. So so that
negative thinking is probably the first obstacle I have to
deal with with all of my clients. And then the
second one is is the feelings that come up around
the negative thinking. It's it's the emotional regulation part, because
(24:15):
we start thinking some really unpleasant thoughts and we start
the minute we start revisiting all the mistakes of our past,
we go down a rabbit hole of all different kinds
of you know, I'm the worst human being on the
planet type of motion, sabotaging.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yes, yep, Okay, Kelly. Do you know why you're on
today's show?
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I do not.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
We When we received information about you, you were pegged
by our team as somebody who's gone from success to significance.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Ah hmm.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And we'd love for you to comment on on that
very vague description that I just gave you. What does
success mean to you and what does significance mean to you?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Well?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I think success I feel like I've had for a while.
I've been I've been a couple's counselor for ten years,
and I've had success.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
And I know why I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Successful because I blend humor and creativity with science and
that seems to be a no brainer. And I don't
know why everybody to do that, but whatever, So I
understand the success significance is is I think people are
starting to you know, when I present science and a
little humor.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
I think that's raising.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
My level to significance because I teach my clients how
to look at themselves with a light lens, to be like,
all right, so I did some wonky stuff last Tuesday, Okay,
how can I do things different?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
So I think I think it's the humor in the
in the science combo platter that is helping me.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's so great. Yeah, that's so great. I'm so glad
that you you've joined us today. And I want to
know what you're going to do in the next five
years and what book you're going to write.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yes, I'm already working on a book on emotional regulation actually,
which will encompass everything we've been.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Talking about today. Uh. And I and I'm and I
mean talking about.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Specifically in relationships and how to manage relationships and how
to take relationships to a higher level. And and I've
been actually I've actually been writing. I didn't write for
I was always a writer. I wrote comedy, I did
all that stuff back in the day. But recently I
started writing some articles about some of this stuff I'm doing.
(26:55):
And so that's kind of giving me a little bit.
I'm kind of getting out that way. I wrote a
great piece for motherhood moment on gaslighting.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Oh my gosh, I know, it's so good. It's so good.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, it's it's it's really good because everyone uses gas lighting.
Like everyone's gaslighting everybody. She gaslighted me, he gaslight And
I'm like, first of all, that's not what's happening. Everyone
always has different perspectives. It doesn't mean they're gaslighting you.
So but then I talk about what it really is,
and you know the difference.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So you know that emotional regulation is the abbreviation is ER.
So is it the new er that we're going.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
To Well, I Daniel Goleman who kind of did did
all the early research and really got it out there
with his book Emotional Intelligence, he calls it EQ.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
I know, yeah yeah, but regulation to me sounds like
it's a stove, it's an oven, A R E R.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Sounds like it's a medical procedure.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
But it's taking as some place, you know, so it's
a destination sort of. Yes, I think it's you know,
I would welcome if I saw a cover at a
bookstore it's an emotional regulation. I'd pick it up just
out of curiosity.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Can I tell you what the title? My book is
going to be Okay, it's called.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Ape shit, ape shit crazy.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yes, that's it's just it's it's just ape shit. And
then then then byline is something like, you know how
to wrangle your emotional bananas. I mean, it's going to
change one hundred different times by the time I get
a published, but it's it's along those lines.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
But it's going to be about e r.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
That cracks me up because my my life as an
author has been write the book and then argue about
the title for the next three months.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
What are we gonna what are we going to title this?
And it's like the final the final curtain. You know,
what are the alternatives to the book title?
Speaker 3 (29:14):
That's the only one I have so far.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, good, don't think of another one. Don't confuse the
the issue. Okay, right, that's so great. It's it's been
wonderful to have you on give out your information one
more time so our audience can contact you.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, Kelly J. Brower.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
And my website is psych in Thecity dot com and
it's psych p S y C. There's no age psych
in Thecity dot com.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Thank you for making a difference, Kelly Brower. We we
think that you are in the zone of significance.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Ah, thank you so much. It's been it's been great
hanging out with you Rick.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Likewise, likewise, folks, we help you have a good week
and as usual we will you success on your way
to significance. Have a grade
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Mm hm
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com