TrulySignificant.com presents Dr. Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader: How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, Productivity and Innovation.
Enjoy this conversation centered around emotional intelligence and how modern day leadership should take EQ into a required set of skills to function. Hear about actionable empathy and how it can work for you.
Ponder Dr. Robinson's key message.....Empathy is in the feeling, but compassion is what you do.
Learn the meaning of SOCIAL LUBRICATION.
Walk away with a new perspective on warm hearts and cool heads.
Purchase The Empathic Leader at B&N, Amazon and where ever you buy your books.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
Enjoy this conversation centered around emotional intelligence and how modern day leadership should take EQ into a required set of skills to function. Hear about actionable empathy and how it can work for you.
Ponder Dr. Robinson's key message.....Empathy is in the feeling, but compassion is what you do.
Learn the meaning of SOCIAL LUBRICATION.
Walk away with a new perspective on warm hearts and cool heads.
Purchase The Empathic Leader at B&N, Amazon and where ever you buy your books.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I'm rich to Keeney. We have a great guest on
this morning, doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader,
How eq via Empathy Transforms leadership for better profit, productivity,
and innovation. The book was out this year, twenty twenty five,
(00:30):
and there's so many things to talk to doctor Melissa
about this morning, and I am so glad to have
you on. Welcome doctor, Well.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be amongst people that are truly significant.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Tell our listening audience about yourself, maybe even starting with
your hometown.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So, my dad was military, so I don't really have
a hometown. It was, you know, kind of kind of
the gypsy life. Two years here and two years there
and wherever. Right now, I'm in Oklahoma, but I kind
of consider myself by coastal so I'm just kind of
I go where I'm great.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Where did you get your college education?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So my first set of degrees was in music, and
I did my undergrad at the University of Northern Iowa
and my master's at Yale and the doctorate at the
University of Kansas. But then after that, when I started
really following this empathy route, I went back to you know,
shore up what I thought. We're some things I could
do better. So I have an MBA from Georgia Southwestern
(01:34):
University and a Master's of Science and Data Analytics from
Western Governors, and I'm finishing up my doctorate in Interdisciplinary
Leadership from Creighton in Omaha.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Very good. That is one big wall of degrees that
you have.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
It's two completely separate lives.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's wild. Based on that and being a fellow musician
and having interviewed maybe a hundred polymaths have you're walking
as a musician. You are a scientist though social scientist, psychologist.
(02:10):
Would you consider yourself a polymath who taps into different
parts of your brain because of that music?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
You know, I hadn't considered it like that, but I
always knew that that music part had a lot more
going on on the math side of things than maybe
even I gave it credit for when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Oh yes, I think it's inescapable as a musician to
know that part of the brain takes over in conversations
like the one that we're having today on being an
empathic leader. Let's face it, for those of you leaders
who are out there who are not musicians, it's not
(02:53):
too late to learn percussion guitar. That's right, would when piano.
So that's that's a little spark there for you today. Okay,
let's talk about significance. When you think of someone who's
lived a truly significant life, what qualifies that person and
(03:18):
what actions come to mind.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I was thinking about this because I think there's a
difference between being significant and being truly significant, because significance,
in my mind, it means that you're changing the world somehow,
even if you're changing it one heart at a time.
But there are people that do significant things that are
really negative, So I don't think that's truly significant. I
(03:41):
think truly significant is changing the world in big and
small ways in a positive.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You're here that ties into your vision for the empathic leader,
and where that began. Tell us about at what point
you shifted from this so called soft skill to it
being a strategic leadership imperative.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It came from watching so many people leaders in particular,
that just could not harness that human to human skill.
And it's a skill. I use that word very purposely.
People think of empathy as this soft, fluffy puppies and
rainbows thing you have and it had.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
When you heard that, pers what's up there in that
cranium of yours? We need to reshuffle the deck.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I did, actually, and it was somebody in healthcare. And
it's because this is someone who in healthcare, you're supposed
to have more empathy, not less. And this person I
had some pulmonary embolite. I was having some medical problems
and I had gone into work. Sometimes you have to
take a job for the benefits, you know how that goes.
(04:54):
And I had been in the emergency room overnight. But
I hadn't been there that long. I'd only been there
about three weeks. And I told her what had happened
and that, you know, I didn't have the time off.
I hadn't been there long enough to be able to
do anything. And I'm like, I really need time to
go home. You know, this is a medical facility. You
guys should have empathy for this. And she looked at
me and gave me the poudy face and walked away.
(05:18):
And that's the point at which I'm like, that is it.
We have got to start treating each other better, because
this is ridiculous. If we can't take care of each other,
everything is just going to devolve into chaos, and this
is stupid.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I want a call to action to take from a
person that was so empty. That emptiness is the same
as the gap, I think, and I love hanging around
people that talk about gaps. You pose a powerful question.
Is the gap between your vision and your reality widening?
Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, most leaders that I've worked with have a vision
of what they want, you know, they have these great
ideas and they want to be able to create change,
create significant change. But there's a gap and they can't
figure out why. And a lot of times that gap
is in getting people to actually follow. They don't have
that human to human connection that empathy gives. So they
(06:11):
might have all this great stuff going on in their head,
but it's not actionable, and that means that it falls flat,
and that's a shame.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Speaking of the medical industry, my mom was the registered
nurse and I always thought, uh doctor that she got
her degree in the nineteen thirties and early forties in
bedside manner, And over the course of the years I
(06:42):
have become almost like that progressive commercial where the people
are telling others what they should do or how they
should act. And I find every one of those commercials
to be funny. But when someone in the medical industry
does not have good bedside manner and they're looking at
a charge instead of looking at me, I tell them,
(07:06):
can I have a word with you about empathy and
about looking at me in the eyes and squaring up
and just talk to me? And I want you to
comment on that whole notion of the lack of bedside
manner in general across all industries, because I think that
that's it's a raging dissease today.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
I agree, and I think it's because people don't really
understand what empathy is and how it can be used.
We have this idea that it's all about feeling right,
I feel what you feel, and that's one kind of empathy,
but there's actually forty three different definitions. That's just one,
and the one that we miss is cognitive empathy. The
(07:50):
real definition of empathy is being able to take the
perspective of the other person, to be able to understand them.
So if I'm a physician and I'm going in and
I'm talking to somebody, I haven't stopped to think what
it might be like for them on the worst possible
day of their lives. I am not showing the empathy
and I'm gonna fall short. And like you said, that's
(08:10):
not just healthcare, that's across all industries. It's that perspective
taking peace topay.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Cognitive empathy is that, Yeah, this is this is I'm
gonna take a little bird walk on this. For all
the singles that listen to our show, is it possible
that they're approaching finding their right one in the wrong
way because they haven't thought about cognitive empathy with their partner?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Absolutely, Okay, beyond that, absolutely, yes, there is. You got
to you mean the doctor Melissa Robbinson explanation of why
emotional intelligence is important to recognize in dating.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Oh, it's hugely important. So when they started talking about
emotional intelligence, first book came out in ninety five. That
was Daniel Goleman's book on emotional intelligence and how it's
better than regular intelligence IQ, Right, are more important, I
should say not better. When he did that, he put
empathy into that tool bag, right, all these emotional intelligence tools.
(09:20):
You've got communication and motivation and all this stuff. And
I agree that empathy is part of that, but I
think empathy actually has to come first. You have to
be able to take perspective and understand what's going on
with the other person before you reach into that toolbag
of those other skills. Otherwise you don't know if you're
(09:41):
reaching in your tool bag for a screwdriver or a hammer.
So those emotional intelligence skills aren't being used as well
as they could. The flip side of this too, and
it doesn't matter if we're talking dating or leading large organizations,
is that empathy and compassion are two different things. Empathy
is strictly I'm in perspective with this person. It's what
(10:04):
Brene Brown calls being in the suck. It's being in
that feeling, but you're not doing anything. Compassion is the action.
Empathy is what you feel. Compassion is what you do.
If you haven't plugged empathy in first, you end up
taking the wrong kind of compassion and it can actually
blow up on you. Like talking about relationships, you know,
(10:25):
when you have that argument where one person just wants
to be heard, that's empathy, and the other person just
wants to do something, wants to fix it, wants to
take care of it, that's compassion. They're not in line,
they're not in sync. So now you're having relationship problems
even though both people are very well intended.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
If you listen deeply to what doctor Melissa Robinson just said,
if you're spending all of your prime time in your
twenties in a company that lacks empathic leadership or empathy
as a core of value, and then you try to
(11:06):
meet someone and you don't have that skill set in
your toolbox, then it's like you've been incubating in this
environment without empathy. So how can you transfer at the
end of the day and transfer a skill set that
you don't even practice during the day over to your
(11:28):
loved one that you want to spend the rest of
your life with.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So first thing to keep in mind is that having
empathy does not mean you don't have boundaries. So if
you're in this kind of a toxic workplace that doesn't
have empathy, that doesn't mean you couldn't or that you
shouldn't or that you shouldn't be practicing it. It does
mean you're going to have to have boundaries. This idea
that empathy means you just give and give and give
(11:52):
and give is wrong. That's being a pushover, that's being
a doormat. That's not empathy. If you're going to have empathy,
you have to start with having empathy for yourself. Charity
starts at home, and that begins by having boundaries, especially
in those toxic places. Now, how this transfers is that
you start with one question, because you got to start
(12:12):
out easy when you're learning or practicing a new skill, right,
and that one question is how would I feel if
that were me? And I'm seeing it through their eyes
and not mine. You're taking perspective of the other person,
but through their point of view, not yours. And the
first couple of times people try to do this, it's
hard because they'll automatically flip into what their point of
(12:35):
view is, but it's through the eyes of the other person.
So now as you go home and you're you know,
with who, your partner, whoever you're with, you start to
try to see the world through their eyes, and that's
where you begin to practice it once again.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
The Golden rule poax us in the eyeballs.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It's funny how that comes back up. Wisdom comes up
from all sorts.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Of Please tell you this doctor that the Golden rule
was put in our toolbox when we were four and
five years old, and it's remained at the top with
all the most useful screwdrivers and hammers.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I would even take it one step further, because if
the golden rule is do unto others as you would
have them do unto you, then this is the platinum
rule of doing to others as they would want.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
That's right. That's a new toolbox, that's a new skill set.
And with that bit of wisdom from doctor Melissa Robinson,
tell us about where we can purchase your book, maybe
even get an autograph copy. And then how can people
contact you to be a keynote speaker so you can
(13:44):
shake up their organization.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I would love to do that. You can find me
at my website which is eq VIA that's Vias and
victor Ia Empathy, and there is this form there to
contact me. I would be happy to send an autograph
copy to anybody who would want it. And also if
you want me to come and speak, my newsletter is there.
You can also get my book at Amazon and Barnes
and Noble and the usual places. And right now, my
(14:09):
ted X was just released about a month and a
half ago and we're at about sixty thousand views. So
if someone just wants to know a little more about
who I am and what I'm about, I can catch
me there too.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
We will be right back with doctor Melissa Robinson talking
a little bit more about the empathic leader. After this
message from the one and only Marcus Aurelius.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
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(16:08):
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Speaker 1 (16:14):
We are back with doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The
Empathic Leader, How EQ via empathy transforms leadership for better profit,
productivity and innovation. As a fellow author, what was your
second choice for a title of that book.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I don't know that I had a second choice, because
I really wanted a title that summed up exactly what
I wanted to say, and to do it in a
way that maybe would make people rethink what empathy is
instead of just the same old yeah, yeah, it's m
feel what you feel. So I actually worked quite a
bit on that title.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I want to you budding authors out there, when you
land on the right title, don't shift away from it,
because it remained solid. Tell us about some of the
the challenges that you had in dialing down this gigantic
brain of yours who centers on empathy into a twelve
minute ted talk.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
That was a challenge. The hardest thing was just getting
rid of all the fluff because there was so much
I wanted to say, but I wanted something that was
really going to resonate with my audience and give them
some kind of tool that they could take away and
use like now. So once I figured that out and
just made sure I didn't you step over the line
and just kind of go off on a tangent, suddenly
(17:31):
it became a couple of life.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
You were to repeat the power statements in that Ted
talk right now, as if you were instructing our listening
audience on how to move this move empathy from soft
skill to a real hard skill. At the top of
the toolbox. What are the power statements?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
My big one is always to keep in mind that
empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space, whether
it's self empathy or empathy for others. So the second
you find yourself looking through your own eyes and placing
judgment on someone else or even on your own actions,
that's not empathy, and you need to take a step
(18:10):
back and look closer. And that's where the other power
statement comes in, which is critical, not caring. You need
to approach looking at this stuff with cognitive empathy, so
you're looking at it critically like a computer you're looking
at data, you're looking for patterns, you're looking to understand,
but you're not assigning emotional value on everything, which is
hard for us to do as humans. That's really hard
(18:30):
to do. But the more you can really take a
step back and be critical, not caring, and by caring
I just mean assigning emotional value that's going to lead
to judgment, the more you're going to be able to
really make those connections that are going to allow empathy
to happen.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I love what you're saying, but I want to position
that in a bonus question for you against my friend
Kim Scott who wrote Radical Candor and Okay, so I
want I want there to be some clarity here about it,
(19:07):
because Radical Candor is this interesting book that talks about
saying things with clarity because you care so much and
there's got to be some balance there. You just said critical,
not caring, empathetic without self judgment. How can you be
(19:31):
radically candid and empathetic and inspirational at the same time.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I think here is where you start getting into the
difference between being kind and being nice, Because if you're
talking about radical candor and being clear with the right intention,
with the intention of understanding the other person, with the
understanding of helping them, with the understanding of understanding yourself better.
So there isn't judgment. There's still room to be radically honest,
(20:02):
but you're always approaching it with kindness. Nice is something
that's a societal construct. It's what we do to kind
of make you know, getting along with other human beings easier.
It's social lubrication. But kindness is where you're actually putting
the empathy into use, even though it isn't always nice.
Empathy is not always nice, but empathy is always kind.
(20:26):
And if you're going to use something like radical.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Candidate social lubrication. I did. It's like a card that
one goes down in the lexicon for twenty twenty five.
You just won the great prize. Being not is social lubrication?
Did I catch that? Rhyme? Tell me give me one
(20:49):
other example of medication so I can take it to
a dinner party tonight.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
When someone says how are you, and you say, oh,
I'm fine. I mean you're being nice. You're being you know,
that's the manner. That's what maybe you think you should say,
even though the real answer might be, you know, I'm
not really doing well today and I really could use
a little help. But we don't say that because we
want the interaction to be easy. We wanted to slide through.
We want it to be you know, just like the
(21:15):
wheels of a machine just keep clicking. So it's the
things we do to make ourselves and other people more comfortable.
But maybe isn't kind to either them or ourselves.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Your ears are going to burn off because I'm going
to use that to one hundred people and they're going
to go, where did that come from? And is that
the toditle of the next book? That is so great?
Thank you for that. Let's get down to the final
few questions for you. When leaders actually practice empathy consistently,
how have you seen it change them not only in
(21:46):
the workplace, but in their community, how they treat their neighbors,
much less, how they treat their spouse's children and grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
When they actually are able to get a hold of
that skill of taking the perspective of other people, it'll
blow their world wide open, because all of a sudden,
they're seeing life from a perspective. You know, they start
with this small perspective that's just themselves, and all of
a sudden, it's like, wow, this is the entire world,
and you know, I mean sometimes it can be a
little overwhelming at first. But the thing with being a leader,
(22:17):
and this comes from my artistic background, is whether you
like it or not, you are always on stage. Someone
is always watching you, and they're learning from what you're doing.
So you are creating culture, whether you mean to or not.
And by actually enacting these empathetic skills and taking that perspective,
people are watching you, which means now this is rippling
(22:39):
out the next thing. You know, without even trying, you
have an empathic organization and you didn't even have to
put it put it in a mission revision statement.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
That is great. You make my musical brain go into terminology.
And remember I'm a percussionist, so is we Christnda. We
have dynamics and music and you go high and you
go low. Is there a musical parallel term for a
non empathic person.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I would put either look at it in terms of
like an EBB and flow. Yes, if you're talking crescendo day,
crescendo right, because it's it's like more sound waves less
sound waves, or in a way you could almost look
at it like the pendulum swing. That's right, how you
moved from one side to the other because salty tastes
so much more salty after you've had sex, and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Why do I think of staccato? What does staccato mean
to you? And that kind of conn kind of a
uneven shortened dry bumpy something like that, just super short dry. Okay,
we're gonna have to have you back on again, if
(23:53):
nothing else to play the social lubrication game and have
in your book that would when people read it or
going to go How do I need to red circle
that one? And I'm going to use that one? Is
there any other terminology that you've created? Well?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, since I talk about using both emotional and cognitive
empathy because I think you I actually think you have
to have all three. You have to have cognitive, emotional,
and self empathy to work well, but particularly emotional and
cognitive empathy. I talk about keeping a cool head.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And a warm heart cool head.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Because I think it sums it up pretty well.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Why is temperature a part of that?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Well, just this idea of you don't want to lose
all of your emotion, you know, warm hearted, You don't
give up your emotional like you were talking earlier about
being in a non non empathetic environment and then trying
to go home. You don't want it to all be
in the head, but you also don't want it to
all be in the heart. There has to be that balance,
you know. So that's kind of.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
What ac suits to me. You know what, doctor you've got.
You've written this great book. Sixty thousand people have heard
your ted talk, So the seeds are being planted. But
there's something missing though, Yeah, because there will be another
book that comes out next year on emotional intelligence, and
(25:37):
another and another. But what's it going to take to
change communities and change companies and change hearts. Is it
going to take the next fifty years or what's the
shake up point?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
It's going to take a grassroots movement, even though I'm
talking to leaders because they affect so many people. This
stuff has got to start at home. It has to
start with self leadership and a single person, and then
it can start to grow. Which is why my next
book is actually going to be about empathy and people,
empathy and humans and how we relate to each other
day to day, because I think that's really that's really
(26:20):
the only way change has ever been done. Is a
grassroots movement and people saying, yeah, you keep going like this.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
That's exactly right. What a great way to close the show.
Thank you so much for being on today. That is
doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader. You need
to read it, people, and then read her books. Her
other books coming up too. You want to give final
thoughts other than what you just brilliantly stated on it
starts at home.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
I think that's the perfect place to end. Don't wait
for someone else to do it. Be the change you
want to see in the world.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And he said, stop talking about it, just start to change.
And by the way, these nonsensical New Year resolutions, there's
nothing a resolution doesn't start January the first You can
start today with the change, read this book and start
to embrace change. And I think the other thing I
(27:21):
would add is do it with someone else. Make that
partner with the change. So you're not writing solo again,
you know, trying to alter yourself. So have an accountability
partner who also wants to change as well. Doctor. Thank
you so much for being on. You were just great.
How about coming back on next year to give us
(27:45):
a State of the Union address on empathy and remember
we're going to be talking about music and the empathic
leader at the same time that you are a very
joy per person. Thank you for being on and folks,
as we always say, we wish you success, but on
the real avenue you should take and walk down called significance.
(28:10):
Have a great week.
I'm rich to Keeney. We have a great guest on
this morning, doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader,
How eq via Empathy Transforms leadership for better profit, productivity,
and innovation. The book was out this year, twenty twenty five,
(00:30):
and there's so many things to talk to doctor Melissa
about this morning, and I am so glad to have
you on. Welcome doctor, Well.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be amongst people that are truly significant.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Tell our listening audience about yourself, maybe even starting with
your hometown.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So, my dad was military, so I don't really have
a hometown. It was, you know, kind of kind of
the gypsy life. Two years here and two years there
and wherever. Right now, I'm in Oklahoma, but I kind
of consider myself by coastal so I'm just kind of
I go where I'm great.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Where did you get your college education?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So my first set of degrees was in music, and
I did my undergrad at the University of Northern Iowa
and my master's at Yale and the doctorate at the
University of Kansas. But then after that, when I started
really following this empathy route, I went back to you know,
shore up what I thought. We're some things I could
do better. So I have an MBA from Georgia Southwestern
(01:34):
University and a Master's of Science and Data Analytics from
Western Governors, and I'm finishing up my doctorate in Interdisciplinary
Leadership from Creighton in Omaha.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Very good. That is one big wall of degrees that
you have.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
It's two completely separate lives.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's wild. Based on that and being a fellow musician
and having interviewed maybe a hundred polymaths have you're walking
as a musician. You are a scientist though social scientist, psychologist.
(02:10):
Would you consider yourself a polymath who taps into different
parts of your brain because of that music?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
You know, I hadn't considered it like that, but I
always knew that that music part had a lot more
going on on the math side of things than maybe
even I gave it credit for when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Oh yes, I think it's inescapable as a musician to
know that part of the brain takes over in conversations
like the one that we're having today on being an
empathic leader. Let's face it, for those of you leaders
who are out there who are not musicians, it's not
(02:53):
too late to learn percussion guitar. That's right, would when piano.
So that's that's a little spark there for you today. Okay,
let's talk about significance. When you think of someone who's
lived a truly significant life, what qualifies that person and
(03:18):
what actions come to mind.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I was thinking about this because I think there's a
difference between being significant and being truly significant, because significance,
in my mind, it means that you're changing the world somehow,
even if you're changing it one heart at a time.
But there are people that do significant things that are
really negative, So I don't think that's truly significant. I
(03:41):
think truly significant is changing the world in big and
small ways in a positive.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You're here that ties into your vision for the empathic leader,
and where that began. Tell us about at what point
you shifted from this so called soft skill to it
being a strategic leadership imperative.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It came from watching so many people leaders in particular,
that just could not harness that human to human skill.
And it's a skill. I use that word very purposely.
People think of empathy as this soft, fluffy puppies and
rainbows thing you have and it had.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
When you heard that, pers what's up there in that
cranium of yours? We need to reshuffle the deck.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I did, actually, and it was somebody in healthcare. And
it's because this is someone who in healthcare, you're supposed
to have more empathy, not less. And this person I
had some pulmonary embolite. I was having some medical problems
and I had gone into work. Sometimes you have to
take a job for the benefits, you know how that goes.
(04:54):
And I had been in the emergency room overnight. But
I hadn't been there that long. I'd only been there
about three weeks. And I told her what had happened
and that, you know, I didn't have the time off.
I hadn't been there long enough to be able to
do anything. And I'm like, I really need time to
go home. You know, this is a medical facility. You
guys should have empathy for this. And she looked at
me and gave me the poudy face and walked away.
(05:18):
And that's the point at which I'm like, that is it.
We have got to start treating each other better, because
this is ridiculous. If we can't take care of each other,
everything is just going to devolve into chaos, and this
is stupid.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I want a call to action to take from a
person that was so empty. That emptiness is the same
as the gap, I think, and I love hanging around
people that talk about gaps. You pose a powerful question.
Is the gap between your vision and your reality widening?
Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, most leaders that I've worked with have a vision
of what they want, you know, they have these great
ideas and they want to be able to create change,
create significant change. But there's a gap and they can't
figure out why. And a lot of times that gap
is in getting people to actually follow. They don't have
that human to human connection that empathy gives. So they
(06:11):
might have all this great stuff going on in their head,
but it's not actionable, and that means that it falls flat,
and that's a shame.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Speaking of the medical industry, my mom was the registered
nurse and I always thought, uh doctor that she got
her degree in the nineteen thirties and early forties in
bedside manner, And over the course of the years I
(06:42):
have become almost like that progressive commercial where the people
are telling others what they should do or how they
should act. And I find every one of those commercials
to be funny. But when someone in the medical industry
does not have good bedside manner and they're looking at
a charge instead of looking at me, I tell them,
(07:06):
can I have a word with you about empathy and
about looking at me in the eyes and squaring up
and just talk to me? And I want you to
comment on that whole notion of the lack of bedside
manner in general across all industries, because I think that
that's it's a raging dissease today.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
I agree, and I think it's because people don't really
understand what empathy is and how it can be used.
We have this idea that it's all about feeling right,
I feel what you feel, and that's one kind of empathy,
but there's actually forty three different definitions. That's just one,
and the one that we miss is cognitive empathy. The
(07:50):
real definition of empathy is being able to take the
perspective of the other person, to be able to understand them.
So if I'm a physician and I'm going in and
I'm talking to somebody, I haven't stopped to think what
it might be like for them on the worst possible
day of their lives. I am not showing the empathy
and I'm gonna fall short. And like you said, that's
(08:10):
not just healthcare, that's across all industries. It's that perspective
taking peace topay.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Cognitive empathy is that, Yeah, this is this is I'm
gonna take a little bird walk on this. For all
the singles that listen to our show, is it possible
that they're approaching finding their right one in the wrong
way because they haven't thought about cognitive empathy with their partner?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Absolutely, Okay, beyond that, absolutely, yes, there is. You got
to you mean the doctor Melissa Robbinson explanation of why
emotional intelligence is important to recognize in dating.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Oh, it's hugely important. So when they started talking about
emotional intelligence, first book came out in ninety five. That
was Daniel Goleman's book on emotional intelligence and how it's
better than regular intelligence IQ, Right, are more important, I
should say not better. When he did that, he put
empathy into that tool bag, right, all these emotional intelligence tools.
(09:20):
You've got communication and motivation and all this stuff. And
I agree that empathy is part of that, but I
think empathy actually has to come first. You have to
be able to take perspective and understand what's going on
with the other person before you reach into that toolbag
of those other skills. Otherwise you don't know if you're
(09:41):
reaching in your tool bag for a screwdriver or a hammer.
So those emotional intelligence skills aren't being used as well
as they could. The flip side of this too, and
it doesn't matter if we're talking dating or leading large organizations,
is that empathy and compassion are two different things. Empathy
is strictly I'm in perspective with this person. It's what
(10:04):
Brene Brown calls being in the suck. It's being in
that feeling, but you're not doing anything. Compassion is the action.
Empathy is what you feel. Compassion is what you do.
If you haven't plugged empathy in first, you end up
taking the wrong kind of compassion and it can actually
blow up on you. Like talking about relationships, you know,
(10:25):
when you have that argument where one person just wants
to be heard, that's empathy, and the other person just
wants to do something, wants to fix it, wants to
take care of it, that's compassion. They're not in line,
they're not in sync. So now you're having relationship problems
even though both people are very well intended.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
If you listen deeply to what doctor Melissa Robinson just said,
if you're spending all of your prime time in your
twenties in a company that lacks empathic leadership or empathy
as a core of value, and then you try to
(11:06):
meet someone and you don't have that skill set in
your toolbox, then it's like you've been incubating in this
environment without empathy. So how can you transfer at the
end of the day and transfer a skill set that
you don't even practice during the day over to your
(11:28):
loved one that you want to spend the rest of
your life with.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So first thing to keep in mind is that having
empathy does not mean you don't have boundaries. So if
you're in this kind of a toxic workplace that doesn't
have empathy, that doesn't mean you couldn't or that you
shouldn't or that you shouldn't be practicing it. It does
mean you're going to have to have boundaries. This idea
that empathy means you just give and give and give
(11:52):
and give is wrong. That's being a pushover, that's being
a doormat. That's not empathy. If you're going to have empathy,
you have to start with having empathy for yourself. Charity
starts at home, and that begins by having boundaries, especially
in those toxic places. Now, how this transfers is that
you start with one question, because you got to start
(12:12):
out easy when you're learning or practicing a new skill, right,
and that one question is how would I feel if
that were me? And I'm seeing it through their eyes
and not mine. You're taking perspective of the other person,
but through their point of view, not yours. And the
first couple of times people try to do this, it's
hard because they'll automatically flip into what their point of
(12:35):
view is, but it's through the eyes of the other person.
So now as you go home and you're you know,
with who, your partner, whoever you're with, you start to
try to see the world through their eyes, and that's
where you begin to practice it once again.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
The Golden rule poax us in the eyeballs.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It's funny how that comes back up. Wisdom comes up
from all sorts.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Of Please tell you this doctor that the Golden rule
was put in our toolbox when we were four and
five years old, and it's remained at the top with
all the most useful screwdrivers and hammers.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
I would even take it one step further, because if
the golden rule is do unto others as you would
have them do unto you, then this is the platinum
rule of doing to others as they would want.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
That's right. That's a new toolbox, that's a new skill set.
And with that bit of wisdom from doctor Melissa Robinson,
tell us about where we can purchase your book, maybe
even get an autograph copy. And then how can people
contact you to be a keynote speaker so you can
(13:44):
shake up their organization.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I would love to do that. You can find me
at my website which is eq VIA that's Vias and
victor Ia Empathy, and there is this form there to
contact me. I would be happy to send an autograph
copy to anybody who would want it. And also if
you want me to come and speak, my newsletter is there.
You can also get my book at Amazon and Barnes
and Noble and the usual places. And right now, my
(14:09):
ted X was just released about a month and a
half ago and we're at about sixty thousand views. So
if someone just wants to know a little more about
who I am and what I'm about, I can catch
me there too.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
We will be right back with doctor Melissa Robinson talking
a little bit more about the empathic leader. After this
message from the one and only Marcus Aurelius.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
This is Marcus Aurelius reappearing to proclaim that truly Significant
Conversations with big hearted people is a rare piece of literature.
This book reminds me of one of my more stirring quotes,
waste no more time arguing what a good man should
be be one.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
If you're stepping into your next life chapter of your
career and questioning what lies beyond success, this book is
for you.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Dive into forty soul stirring stories from luminaries like doctor
Jane Goodall, Ed Asner, and Emily Chang, stories that urge
you to pursue purpose, serve others, and build a legacy
that outlasts you.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Authored by Rick TOLKINI Truly Significant will challenge your view
of success and ignite a life of impact. Order now
at TinyURL dot com backslash Truly Significant and begin living intentionally.
Maybe your epitaph will read she gave outrageously extended grace
(15:48):
unceasingly and lived to help others so that death found
her empty. Visit truly significant dot com and celebrate the
most true significant people in your life with the truly
Significant community. How bold of you to make your next
(16:08):
chapter matter and be truly significant.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
We are back with doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The
Empathic Leader, How EQ via empathy transforms leadership for better profit,
productivity and innovation. As a fellow author, what was your
second choice for a title of that book.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I don't know that I had a second choice, because
I really wanted a title that summed up exactly what
I wanted to say, and to do it in a
way that maybe would make people rethink what empathy is
instead of just the same old yeah, yeah, it's m
feel what you feel. So I actually worked quite a
bit on that title.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I want to you budding authors out there, when you
land on the right title, don't shift away from it,
because it remained solid. Tell us about some of the
the challenges that you had in dialing down this gigantic
brain of yours who centers on empathy into a twelve
minute ted talk.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
That was a challenge. The hardest thing was just getting
rid of all the fluff because there was so much
I wanted to say, but I wanted something that was
really going to resonate with my audience and give them
some kind of tool that they could take away and
use like now. So once I figured that out and
just made sure I didn't you step over the line
and just kind of go off on a tangent, suddenly
(17:31):
it became a couple of life.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
You were to repeat the power statements in that Ted
talk right now, as if you were instructing our listening
audience on how to move this move empathy from soft
skill to a real hard skill. At the top of
the toolbox. What are the power statements?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
My big one is always to keep in mind that
empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space, whether
it's self empathy or empathy for others. So the second
you find yourself looking through your own eyes and placing
judgment on someone else or even on your own actions,
that's not empathy, and you need to take a step
(18:10):
back and look closer. And that's where the other power
statement comes in, which is critical, not caring. You need
to approach looking at this stuff with cognitive empathy, so
you're looking at it critically like a computer you're looking
at data, you're looking for patterns, you're looking to understand,
but you're not assigning emotional value on everything, which is
hard for us to do as humans. That's really hard
(18:30):
to do. But the more you can really take a
step back and be critical, not caring, and by caring
I just mean assigning emotional value that's going to lead
to judgment, the more you're going to be able to
really make those connections that are going to allow empathy
to happen.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I love what you're saying, but I want to position
that in a bonus question for you against my friend
Kim Scott who wrote Radical Candor and Okay, so I
want I want there to be some clarity here about it,
(19:07):
because Radical Candor is this interesting book that talks about
saying things with clarity because you care so much and
there's got to be some balance there. You just said critical,
not caring, empathetic without self judgment. How can you be
(19:31):
radically candid and empathetic and inspirational at the same time.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I think here is where you start getting into the
difference between being kind and being nice, Because if you're
talking about radical candor and being clear with the right intention,
with the intention of understanding the other person, with the
understanding of helping them, with the understanding of understanding yourself better.
So there isn't judgment. There's still room to be radically honest,
(20:02):
but you're always approaching it with kindness. Nice is something
that's a societal construct. It's what we do to kind
of make you know, getting along with other human beings easier.
It's social lubrication. But kindness is where you're actually putting
the empathy into use, even though it isn't always nice.
Empathy is not always nice, but empathy is always kind.
(20:26):
And if you're going to use something like radical.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Candidate social lubrication. I did. It's like a card that
one goes down in the lexicon for twenty twenty five.
You just won the great prize. Being not is social lubrication?
Did I catch that? Rhyme? Tell me give me one
(20:49):
other example of medication so I can take it to
a dinner party tonight.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
When someone says how are you, and you say, oh,
I'm fine. I mean you're being nice. You're being you know,
that's the manner. That's what maybe you think you should say,
even though the real answer might be, you know, I'm
not really doing well today and I really could use
a little help. But we don't say that because we
want the interaction to be easy. We wanted to slide through.
We want it to be you know, just like the
(21:15):
wheels of a machine just keep clicking. So it's the
things we do to make ourselves and other people more comfortable.
But maybe isn't kind to either them or ourselves.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Your ears are going to burn off because I'm going
to use that to one hundred people and they're going
to go, where did that come from? And is that
the toditle of the next book? That is so great?
Thank you for that. Let's get down to the final
few questions for you. When leaders actually practice empathy consistently,
how have you seen it change them not only in
(21:46):
the workplace, but in their community, how they treat their neighbors,
much less, how they treat their spouse's children and grandchildren.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
When they actually are able to get a hold of
that skill of taking the perspective of other people, it'll
blow their world wide open, because all of a sudden,
they're seeing life from a perspective. You know, they start
with this small perspective that's just themselves, and all of
a sudden, it's like, wow, this is the entire world,
and you know, I mean sometimes it can be a
little overwhelming at first. But the thing with being a leader,
(22:17):
and this comes from my artistic background, is whether you
like it or not, you are always on stage. Someone
is always watching you, and they're learning from what you're doing.
So you are creating culture, whether you mean to or not.
And by actually enacting these empathetic skills and taking that perspective,
people are watching you, which means now this is rippling
(22:39):
out the next thing. You know, without even trying, you
have an empathic organization and you didn't even have to
put it put it in a mission revision statement.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
That is great. You make my musical brain go into terminology.
And remember I'm a percussionist, so is we Christnda. We
have dynamics and music and you go high and you
go low. Is there a musical parallel term for a
non empathic person.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
I would put either look at it in terms of
like an EBB and flow. Yes, if you're talking crescendo day,
crescendo right, because it's it's like more sound waves less
sound waves, or in a way you could almost look
at it like the pendulum swing. That's right, how you
moved from one side to the other because salty tastes
so much more salty after you've had sex, and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Why do I think of staccato? What does staccato mean
to you? And that kind of conn kind of a
uneven shortened dry bumpy something like that, just super short dry. Okay,
we're gonna have to have you back on again, if
(23:53):
nothing else to play the social lubrication game and have
in your book that would when people read it or
going to go How do I need to red circle
that one? And I'm going to use that one? Is
there any other terminology that you've created? Well?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, since I talk about using both emotional and cognitive
empathy because I think you I actually think you have
to have all three. You have to have cognitive, emotional,
and self empathy to work well, but particularly emotional and
cognitive empathy. I talk about keeping a cool head.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And a warm heart cool head.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Because I think it sums it up pretty well.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Why is temperature a part of that?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Well, just this idea of you don't want to lose
all of your emotion, you know, warm hearted, You don't
give up your emotional like you were talking earlier about
being in a non non empathetic environment and then trying
to go home. You don't want it to all be
in the head, but you also don't want it to
all be in the heart. There has to be that balance,
you know. So that's kind of.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
What ac suits to me. You know what, doctor you've got.
You've written this great book. Sixty thousand people have heard
your ted talk, So the seeds are being planted. But
there's something missing though, Yeah, because there will be another
book that comes out next year on emotional intelligence, and
(25:37):
another and another. But what's it going to take to
change communities and change companies and change hearts. Is it
going to take the next fifty years or what's the
shake up point?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
It's going to take a grassroots movement, even though I'm
talking to leaders because they affect so many people. This
stuff has got to start at home. It has to
start with self leadership and a single person, and then
it can start to grow. Which is why my next
book is actually going to be about empathy and people,
empathy and humans and how we relate to each other
day to day, because I think that's really that's really
(26:20):
the only way change has ever been done. Is a
grassroots movement and people saying, yeah, you keep going like this.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
That's exactly right. What a great way to close the show.
Thank you so much for being on today. That is
doctor Melissa Robinson, author of The Empathic Leader. You need
to read it, people, and then read her books. Her
other books coming up too. You want to give final
thoughts other than what you just brilliantly stated on it
starts at home.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
I think that's the perfect place to end. Don't wait
for someone else to do it. Be the change you
want to see in the world.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And he said, stop talking about it, just start to change.
And by the way, these nonsensical New Year resolutions, there's
nothing a resolution doesn't start January the first You can
start today with the change, read this book and start
to embrace change. And I think the other thing I
(27:21):
would add is do it with someone else. Make that
partner with the change. So you're not writing solo again,
you know, trying to alter yourself. So have an accountability
partner who also wants to change as well. Doctor. Thank
you so much for being on. You were just great.
How about coming back on next year to give us
(27:45):
a State of the Union address on empathy and remember
we're going to be talking about music and the empathic
leader at the same time that you are a very
joy per person. Thank you for being on and folks,
as we always say, we wish you success, but on
the real avenue you should take and walk down called significance.
(28:10):
Have a great week.
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