TrulySignificant.com presents the incomparable James Burstall (CEO of Argonon) and his collaborator Joe Weinstock (CEO of Rose Rock Films). Humble, informed, stoked with listening skills, decisive, bold with fierce results.
A young man believed storytelling wasn’t just entertainment—it was a duty. He built a company on that idea, through crises, through change, always championing truth and diverse voices. He called it Argonon. Independent. Resilient. A home for talent. He told his team in hard times: We’ll get through this—together. Today, you will hear the power of stories, and the lessons of a lifetime spent lifting others and the power of passionate leadership. He is James Burstall. CEO of Argonon.
Storytelling—it’s how we share our dreams, confess our failures, and bind our hearts together. Joe Weinstock is a man who doesn’t build bridges of steel, but of words and understanding. Joe discovered that the true power of leadership lies not in authority, but in the stories we dare to tell. He’s helped leaders speak with honesty, taught them that vulnerability is strength, and shown them how real stories change real lives. Enjoy this master storyteller who reminds us that sharing our truth is the most generous act of all. "Life is too short. Let's get to it." prophetic words from Joe Weinstock
Visit www.argonon.com and www.roserockfilms.com
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
A young man believed storytelling wasn’t just entertainment—it was a duty. He built a company on that idea, through crises, through change, always championing truth and diverse voices. He called it Argonon. Independent. Resilient. A home for talent. He told his team in hard times: We’ll get through this—together. Today, you will hear the power of stories, and the lessons of a lifetime spent lifting others and the power of passionate leadership. He is James Burstall. CEO of Argonon.
Storytelling—it’s how we share our dreams, confess our failures, and bind our hearts together. Joe Weinstock is a man who doesn’t build bridges of steel, but of words and understanding. Joe discovered that the true power of leadership lies not in authority, but in the stories we dare to tell. He’s helped leaders speak with honesty, taught them that vulnerability is strength, and shown them how real stories change real lives. Enjoy this master storyteller who reminds us that sharing our truth is the most generous act of all. "Life is too short. Let's get to it." prophetic words from Joe Weinstock
Visit www.argonon.com and www.roserockfilms.com
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 3 (01:06):
I think you have to do something significant fuel industry
and for the country, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And who decides it okay? Not the royalty. Interesting the
guys that.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Are talking about significance and dames and lords, those are
our guests today.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
James Verston and Joe Weinstock.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Here's the intros that I've written on both of you,
so bear with me. He was born not with the
silver spoon, but a camera lens in his eye and
a storyteller's heart in his chest before streaming was a
household word, before reality TV had found it. So James
(01:46):
Burstall was already scripting a different kind of reality, one
made of grit, integrity and cinematic honesty. He's the man
behind some of Britain's most compelling documentaries and dramas, the
driving force behind an Argonnon, a global group of production
companies that knows how to light up screens from London
(02:06):
to New York.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
And far beyond. But James is more than a producer.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
He's a mentor, a strategist, a crises navigator who's led
his team through stormy waters of a global pandemic not
by tightening the belt, but by opening his mind. And
now he's written the playbook on resilience. We've talked to
him before about it on the show. Quite literally, the
flexible method is his compass for leaders, entrepreneurs, and yes
(02:35):
even dreamers. So today we're here to talk about that journey,
that mission, and the why behind it all, along with
Joe Weinstock.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
In an era overrun with sequels, spin offs.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And screen time clutter emerges this man not seeking fame
but substance and Joe Weinstock is a name not yet
branded in bright Marky lights, but quietly extant to the
soul of storytelling. He's the CEO of Rose Rock Films,
where creativity meets conviction, and where he serves not just
(03:09):
as a producer, but as a curator of meaningful entertainment.
He's no ordinary Hollywood suit thank God. Before cameras rolled,
he was an entertainment lawyer, attorney, armed with contracts in
one hand and common sense in the other. A former
show buyer, Joe saw the industry from the inside, yet
(03:33):
never lost sight of what mattered authenticity. Guys, it's great
to see you again.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Amazing introduction.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Well, let's let's call it a day.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
You're done, so, James and Joe. Before we talk about
arguing on today, let's rewind. What is the moment or
the person in your personal journey that planted the seed
for you a creative and entrepreneurial spirit.
Speaker 7 (04:03):
Well, I started off, you said, I was born with
a lens in my eye. I did start off creating
shows as a very small child in elementary school where
I set up my first company.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And we did.
Speaker 7 (04:15):
We did Shearlotte Homes on the Christmas Turkey, which of course,
was absolutely forgettable and never to be repeat it. But
you know, as a seven year old boy, it was
very exciting and I loved it, and I managed to
persuade some friends in school to perform what was a
dreadful script, but we loved it at the time. So yeah,
(04:37):
I did go back a long way len in my life.
I thought I was going to become a theater director.
Actually I did a lot of theater at university and
always loved working with actors. Took a bunch of shows
to Edinburgh and so Edinburgh Theater Festival, which is like
the British absolute peak of theater, and thought that was
(04:58):
going to.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Be my path.
Speaker 7 (04:59):
And then and then I think I realized that if
I went into theater it would be very hard to
make a living unless I was one of the tiny,
tiny fraction of a percent who made it.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So then went into journalism and then into TV.
Speaker 7 (05:13):
But I think one of the things that makes all
of us successful in our industry and indeed in life
is having this kind of multifaceted career, as does my
very dear friend and colleague Joe.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Yeah, you know, I think the moment that hit me
was when I was still in school.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I was actually in law school.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
And I was watching a television show where one of
our best friends was in a television show as an extra.
We got to see him just that split second with
Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and he was shutting a locker
room door, and we're like, that.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Guy made it.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
You know, I was not knowing that he didn't make it,
not even close, but it was like, holy shit, if Jed.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Can do it, we can do it.
Speaker 6 (06:03):
And ultimately, you know, I lucked my way into LA
got on a desk, and you know, just uh just
found my way into every meeting that no one's you know,
someone would say yes to until I couldn't get into
the meeting, and uh, you know, pretty much made my
own luck into a fun little television career in the
(06:26):
non fiction space.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Thank you, Jed.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
That is so great.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
You're both you both taken unconventional paths in the industry.
Tell me about one surprising detaur that each of you took.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Oh, I bet you got some good ones, James.
Speaker 7 (06:46):
Well, I mean I think that the facts the massive
is is that you're going to be open minded in
our industry. It isn't like a constancy or banking or
even the legal profession, whether it's an obvious progression, but
you step up the ladder.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
So I think you have to be.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Willing to make not necessarily u turns, but make kind
of steps to the side, and then try something different
if the first thing doesn't work. And I always say
to people who want to come into the industry, it's
very important to listen out for opportunities and when something
comes along your way, seize the day. One of the
(07:24):
things that I feel most strongly about in life is
you must follow your heart, and if your heart says
to you that this is an opportunity that I really
want to try, then you should. And one of the
things that I did very early on in my career
is I was leaving college, that's what you needed a job,
wrote to everybody, got rejected by a bunch of people
and didn't get responded to by a bunch of others.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But actually a firm in Paris.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
It was a bit like Time Out magazine now, which
is huge, but it's an American magazine in Paris called Passion.
They invited me to come over to paying me next
to nothing, but to come and learn how to put
a publication together. And indeed, the day I arrived at
that publication, all the senior American editors were walking out
the door because the.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Place is going bankrupt.
Speaker 7 (08:08):
So I was like, oh my god, this is my
dream career going out the door.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Thank goodness. The editor was staying and he said to
me and a.
Speaker 7 (08:15):
Couple of other hungry young Turks like me were also
starting on the same day, well, listen, if you can
help me continue to put the magazine together, I'll let
you try a bit of everything.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
So learn and behold.
Speaker 7 (08:26):
We did, you know, we literally we wrote stories, we
did interviews, we took photographs, we did the layout, and
every week we put this publication to bed. So of course,
at the end of three months, I had this incredible portfolio.
So I really would recommend, you know, anybody starting out
in the career, if something shortinly comes your way, and
maybe it doesn't look great at the beginning, nonetheless keep
(08:47):
going because something will come out of it that you
don't expect.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Good.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, I'd say.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
My detour kind of alluded to it with the first question.
You know, I practicing attorney in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and also
taught speech communication as an adjunct professor at Oklahoma State University. Uh,
just trying to figure out, you know, like I knew
that that wasn't my calling, and you know, like but
(09:15):
it was, you know what what I was told I
was going to do growing up, like practice law. But
ultimately I just said I didn't want to have a regret.
And seeing the success I used air quotes of my
friend being uh an actor, I'm like, I'm gonna I'm
gonna move out.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I at least have to try it, whatever it is.
Speaker 6 (09:39):
I wanted to be in entertainment, and turns out, Uh,
you know, reality television nonscripted was where I was supposed
to be. I just didn't know it. Uh, And I
would just say, no regrets. I took took my swing.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
That's good.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Isn't that the essence of the flexible Method? And then
at the heart of that book about following your heart, pivoting,
paying attention, being mindful of the gaps.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 7 (10:11):
I mean, if we fast forward, I've been running my
first production company for ten years from two thousand and
one till two thousand and ten, and at that time
I received an offer to sell the business, which is
a decent offer and the people who were proposing to buy.
I said, look, James, you need a promotion, need a
(10:33):
change the job. Why don't you come and run our
group and we'll do a kind of reverse takeover if
you like. And thought, well, that sounds exciting, and then
I went off to talk to two very important people.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
The first was.
Speaker 7 (10:46):
A mentor of mine who's a woman called Dorothy Byrne
who now runs a college. She's president of the college
at Cambridge University, incredibly impressive woman. At the time, she
was running news and current affairs at Channel four, which
is one of our big networks in the UK, and she.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Said, James, you know you do need a change. You've
been doing your job for ten years.
Speaker 7 (11:02):
But the trouble is, if you go and run that
particular company, you'll spend two years firing everybody.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It will be miserable.
Speaker 7 (11:10):
And you know your company, Leopard Films, has got a
clean bit of health and those skeletons in the closet.
If you don't want to run a group, go and
run a group, but just do it without them.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
So well, that's an interesting idea.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Then.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Actually, I have to say it was sad, but an
amazing gift. Final gift from my dad. My dad was
dying at the time, and he was in a hospital bed,
and I went to talk to him and I said
that Dad, I'm considering selling. And he said to me,
and well, James, you set up this extraordinary platform which
gives you total freedom to do whatever you want. If
you want to do investigative television, if you want to
(11:43):
do documentaries about climate change, if you want to do
reality shows, if you want to do scripted drama, you
can do all of those things running your own business.
As soon as you sell, you will lose that freedom
and it will perhaps never come again.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So I listened very carefully to both of those.
Speaker 7 (11:59):
People and then went off to speak to some brokers
and thought about it very carefully.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Obviously, it was very traumatic when my dad died.
Speaker 7 (12:08):
I do believe absolutely the boy doesn't become a man
until his father dies.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (12:12):
And it was a very transformative and difficult time, of course,
as you can imagine. But actually on the back of that,
I went on to set up my group Argaanon and
it was one of the best things I did because
I was able to create a new group with a
whole new direction, attracting some incredible talent, including my dear
friend Joe here beside me, and started, you know, the
next fifteen years of my career. So I listened carefully,
(12:34):
and thank goodness, I did make that pivot.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Oh wow, Joe.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
I want you to address this concept of total freedom,
and I want you to do it in the context
of something I learned last week at a leadership conference. Okay,
so this is a I'm pivoting, I'm playing flexible method
of podcast. Well, this is this is what I learned
(13:00):
to this Joe, lead from a difference. We tend to
hire for difference. Then we ring the difference out of people,
forcing them to assimilate. I went, oh shit, I know
exactly what they're talking about. And it relates to what
you were saying, James, about being free to do what
(13:22):
you want to do. And then there's this other side
of you. Lead from a difference. You say one thing
and then you ring it out.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
You ring that difference out. Tell me what you think
about that.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Well, you know, leadership.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
You know comes in all different colors, you know, I
I think, uh, you know, follow your passions, follow your beliefs,
be your authentic self. Ultimately, you know, and you have
to make gut decisions. And I think so many leaders
these days, you know, make decisions based out of fear
(14:03):
rather than you know, what would be right or or
you know, what is the long term ramification of of
what decision you're making.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
But but you you have to, you know, you have.
Speaker 6 (14:17):
To go with your gut, and too many people don't
use their gut to make decisions, uh, to your point earlier,
the freedom to make that, and it is difficult, like
these these are not easy decisions, you know, uh, and
they all run the gamut. And every decision we make
right now in the television business, you know, is under
(14:39):
a microscope. And you know, realizing that and understanding that
when we're trying to sell television shows to folks that
there are concerned about, you know, where they might be
in twelve months, it makes things everything even more under
the microscope, as discussed earlier, and the you know, decision
(15:00):
making even more difficult. But appreciating that thirty Ku and
really following your passions and God is definitely the way
that we like to lead.
Speaker 7 (15:13):
I would also maybe add I think something else that's
really important, and Joe has this in bag fulls, and
that is humility I think you need to be humble
enough to realize that there are people out there who
are much cleverer than we are, and we need those
people on our team, and they are not a threat.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
When they are successful, they make us look good.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Right.
Speaker 7 (15:36):
There is a concept which I'm sure many of your
listeners will know, which is level five leadership, which Jim
Collins wrote about in his seminal book Good to Great,
Which is the level five leaders which I aspire to be,
tried to be, would love to be. Combine deep humility
with fierce resolve. So the humility piece is where you
(15:59):
are to listen to realize that you have weaknesses, that
other people can do somethings better than you, and therefore
it's better to put them in charge of that part
of the business rather than try to do it all yourself.
Also taking really serious responsibility for the business. You know,
the but does stop with us at the top. You
can't deflect. And then the fist resolve piece is when
(16:21):
you have made a decision based upon listening to all
those clever people around you, and you've got all the facts,
and you've done your due diligence and you've got all
the detail. Then you make the decision and you go
for it. One in our industry, as in so many sectors,
you cannot waiver. Once you've made your decision, you have
to follow it through with fifth resolve.
Speaker 6 (16:42):
I love that you know and actually haven't heard that term,
and I couldn't agree more with having that resolve. The
wishy washi gets us in trouble and you stick with
your decision. And I think, yes, been informed in listening.
You know, we can always do more of that, and
(17:03):
ultimately you have to make a decision, but take in
taking all that that you need to make that decision.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Listening, Yes, sir, Okay, we're going to take a quick
break and then we're going to be back with James
Burstall and Joe Winstock and continue to listen to them,
so we will be right back after this message.
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Speaker 4 (18:23):
And we are back with the One and Only's James
Burstall and Joe Weinstein. Hey, this book Radical Candor is
exactly what you guys were just talking about. And I
want to know since I think I was around when
the two of you guys got together. We did a
show on collaborating, and I'm wondering, how has your communication
(18:46):
process evolved with each other? Because Radical Candor basically says
when you care enough to tell it like it is
and kind of cut through the bs. How does your
communication evolved around rab Call candor and then tell me
how your meetings in New York are going this week
with people that you wish radically candid?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Thank you?
Speaker 7 (19:09):
Yeah, I mean we both really value honesty and in fact,
without honesty and radical candor in business, you really are
you know, you're done? I think to be honest. For me,
my business life is not that different from my personal life.
I think it's important to contend to continue the same
(19:30):
values from your personal into your professional life. And that
means for me being willing to be open, to be
willing to be humble, to be honest, to speak your truth,
sometimes carefully if it's something that's difficult to be heard.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
But also, you know, I have always with my family
and my.
Speaker 7 (19:50):
Friends, and indeed with my work colleagues, felt compelled if
I care about them, which I do, to sometimes go
to the difficult places that people don't want to hear,
because there is no greater love, frankly, than giving someone
a piece of thoughtful, kind observation, which is up to
(20:15):
them to then decide where they want to act on it.
And you know, sometimes people don't. Sometimes your words fall
on their fears. But I would feel bad. My conscience
would not allow me to speak the truth, both in
my personal life and indeed in my work life. So
if we take it back into the professional sphere, if
(20:37):
I think things are great, I'll say it.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It's very important to celebrate the winds.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
But if I feel strongly that something needs to be said,
then I absolutely feel compelled to do so because I
care passionate about the product, and I think the product
at the end of the day is on which we
live and die. So if I feel stronger that there's
something missing or something and quite work, then I'm going
to say it. I don't always expect to be listened
to or do acted upon, but at least I've done
(21:05):
my job, which is speak what I believe to be important.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Rick, is that your book?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
That is my book?
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Congratulations? Like I can't wait to read it. I will
do it on my plane ride back. I love the
subject matter and I haven't heard it coin that way.
It certainly grabs my attention. And I think that goes
back to a word that we've said a couple of
times in this conversation is authenticity.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
You know, like let's be fucking real.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
And you know, like that is one thing that we
strive with the relationships that we have with buyers that
we're going up, you know, and talking to in the marketplace,
Like we want to have those real conversations and we
do get real and appreciate like what the three sixty
view is with everything that's going on with them with us,
(21:58):
and you know, what we're talking about or maybe presenting,
but life's too short, you know, like let's get to it.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
You know, and it's like, how do we get to it?
Speaker 6 (22:08):
And you know, like, because how you present that radical
candor is really important too, because it could be received
very negatively if it comes in the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I work with my dad on this.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
I'm like, Dad, you're giving me some good advice, but
the way you're telling me, I can't listen to it.
You know, so really refreshing, And I'm gonna steal that
term and make it my own for the rest of
the week.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
In the book Truly Significant is a feature article on
Kim Scott, who came from Google and she was in
a meeting and she was presenting to the founder of Google,
who wasn't paying attention to her, and she sold whatever
she went in to sell. Her boss pulled her aside
(22:57):
afterwards and said, did you know that you said.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
The word.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Twenty seven times in that presentation? She went, I thought
it was I thought we accomplished what we wanted to
accomplish in that meeting. It's like, isn't it great to
have someone who actually tells the truth in the spirit
of wanting her to improve?
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, it's true, I tell you what.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
It's well in business, you know, people find it very
difficult to say yes and very difficult to say no,
And those are in some ways the two most important words.
We're in taking a bunch of meetings in New York
this week. We have a team here in New York,
and half of our American clients are based in New York,
the other half in Los Angeles pretty much. And you know,
(23:41):
to be truthful, I know a lot of networking executives
find it difficult to say no to our projects just
because sometimes they don't want to upset you, or they
you know, they don't want to let you down, but
actually and of course that they can't take them all. Unfortunately,
when they do say no, it's completely freeing for us
because we go, okay, fine, so that one's not right
(24:01):
for you, So what can we come up with. It's
going to be different than will work for you, so
that gives us a new stare on that far. And secondly,
we're not going to waste any more time. You know,
we'd much rather you said no now, so we drop
that it can move on. So saying no is difficult,
but it's so critically important.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
It is.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Indeed, what, by the way, if you were to give
a state of the industry today to our audience, what
is selling and what isn't selling?
Speaker 6 (24:30):
Uh uh, let's let's pour a drink and talk rick
like you know it is you know like it's it's
a that's a compounded question.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You know what is different and what is moving the industry?
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Now?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Are unique deals? Uh you know where the network would.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
Green light a show and give you X amount of
money to produce the show and production company keeps a
production fee. It's now like hey, network will give you
one hundred thousand an episode and said, okay, we need
you to come up with the other seventy five percent
(25:18):
or fifty percent or twenty five percent of the budget,
whether that's a through another distributor or brands you know,
co productions and you.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Know what that's We're we're personally.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
You know, from a business standpoint, excited about this opportunity
because it is another way to get to it.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yes, and uh, you know, we have uniquely been prepared for.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
This moment and have been galvanizing and working on the
relationships to bring in that X factor to make these
shows a reality. You know, it is an exciting time,
but it is a different time in our business and
everything is being squeezed, and I think the creatives are
(26:09):
getting creative with how to get deals done and through uh,
you know, through.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
The finish line.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
In regards to the types of shows that are being greenlit,
it really just depends on you know, who you're talking to.
But IP is very important, you know, having something with
the built in audience attached to it when you come
in the room, whether it's talent or you know, a
(26:39):
board game or everything in between. You know, they're they're
looking for a built in eyeball. I think that's a
super important piece of the package these days.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Yeah, good to know.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Okay, So let's let's go beyond the executive desk. Now,
when you're not making decisions regarding teams, what grounds you
both personally?
Speaker 7 (27:09):
James, Well, I've always been very fierce with myself and
actually with my teams about time on and time off.
I know that people can't do good work if they're
exhausted or stressed out or frazzled. It just doesn't work.
And I know that for myself. So I've always been
(27:31):
pretty disciplined actually about making sure that I tried to
take weekends off. I try to leave the office between
six and seven in the evening.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I try to take vacations.
Speaker 7 (27:41):
I spend time at home with my family obviously and
my friends.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
I love going to walks. I love being in nature.
Speaker 7 (27:50):
Just recently, I was up at Niagara Falls at the weekend,
and that is just incredible. I mean, the power of
the beauty of that natural environment.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I was trying to imagine what it must have been
like for.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
You know, indigenous people way back when when they came
and they saw that, and there was no buildings and
no no other life there, and they must have thought
it was a truly spiritual place because it has this
extraordinary exceptional power of nature.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
So going into nature for me is a huge comfort,
very good.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
For me.
Speaker 7 (28:25):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (28:26):
You know, I think my kids keep me grounded. Uh,
you know, like, uh, they keep me humble.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (28:32):
They remind me I'm just dad, and I tried to
do my damn damn just to be just their dad.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
It's an honor.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
And it's fun and fuel for my fire to come
home to my family after getting my ass kicked at work.
You know, that keeps me humbled, uh and fuel for
my fire.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
It's powerful. Since I saw you guys last time.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
My children are growing up and We've got one that's
almost four, and we said, what can Papa Rico do
that's different from anybody else in the world.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
So we're teaching him to tell stories. Papa Rico, Papa
Rico's my name you because wow.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
So he's telling, he's literally saying, Papa and cha cha,
my wife's name went to went to Peru to see
Machu beat you. And he's telling. He's starting to tell
us his story. And so we're exposing him to Mary
Poppins and to L. Frank Baum and the Wizard of
(29:38):
Oz and it's like, what if we could raise storytellers,
wouldn't that just be great?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's awesome, that's what we think.
Speaker 5 (29:51):
Okay, back to you guys. Two final questions for you.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
The first one is what's the one piece of advice
that you once resist but now you see as wisdom.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
By the way, just to go back to your four
year old, like, uh, storytelling, I mean that those are
the people that you remember throughout your childhood through your life.
Like to be able to tell a story, yes, you know,
like that that's everything. Uh you know that also the
creative juices that you can uh get just from doing
(30:25):
that and getting people to listen to what you were saying,
like you know, like there is so much that comes
out of that to be a storyteller, and.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
That is uh, that is a unique craft.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
And you know a good storyteller, you know when you're
around one, sorry, really really do.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
And there is a skill set to that.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
And I bet Papa Rico is a good storyteller.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
I'm attempting every time I get to interview people like you,
I go, oh, my gosh, listen to how they told that.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Answer that question. Oh, come on back to this question though.
But I've got some questions left, and you guys are
busy today.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
But first one is what was the one piece of
advice you once resisted but now you see his wisdom?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Now go.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
It's a difficult one, but we've given it some thought.
I mean, I do think that life is.
Speaker 7 (31:20):
Not a set of coincidences, and life is not set out.
I think that life is a product of the choices
that we make. And I remember vividly when I was
a student. I was graduating from university and I went
to see my career as advisory person and they ran
a very dull computer program and I sat waiting expectedly
(31:43):
to see what would come out the other side alone
before it came out, and advised me to be a
tax inspector. Of course, my heart sang, and I thought,
oh my god, this is the rest of my life.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
I'm going to struggle.
Speaker 7 (31:57):
Happily, I ignored that advice and went on to try
to do something different. And then one thing I will
say is that a number of times when I was
growing up, I was told, James, you must follow your heart,
so you must follow your head, not your heart.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
And I thought about that.
Speaker 7 (32:16):
Carefully because I thought, yes, okay, it's very important to
be practical, and I must make sure that I've got
enough money to pay my bills and all those things.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
So yeah, that is important.
Speaker 7 (32:24):
But at the end of the day, if your heart
isn't in something, you won't have a happy life and
you probably will not be successful. So I did decide
to go into the television industry, which is a dicey career.
You know, the career career in any sort of artistry
is that there are no guarantees. And I've taken very
(32:47):
big calculated risks, you know, setting up my company, and
every time we sell a show, we take a huge risk.
But to be truthful, I have done my best throughout
my life to follow my heart. And I think that
is probably the most important advice I would give anybody.
I mean, I have very dear and if he's the
nieces and god children who I'm very close to and
(33:09):
as that uncle who loves them daily and conditionally, I
always say to them, listen.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I want you to follow your heart.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
I don't care who you turn out to be, or
what you turn out to be, or what your choices are,
as long as you don't hurt yourself and you don't
hurt anybody else, and I will love you unconditionally for
whatever you turn out to be.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
So I do think you must follow your heart.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
And again, James, that just goes back towards that word again, authentic.
You know, when you're following your heart, that is as
authentic as you can get, That's as real as you
can get. So you know, like that is definitely something
that I need to actually pass on to my kids.
I don't think I've ever said that to them, but
it has real meaning in you know, like it's your
(33:55):
real self.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
In regards for me. Advice that I resisted, but I
see it's wisdom, you know.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
I could think of one time, you know, like, you know,
we're in the business of selling things, right, and you know,
like we got tom we want to get to it.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yes, you know. Eileen O'Neill was our group GM.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
When I was on the buying side of things at
Discovery Channel many moons ago, and we would go into
green light meetings with concepts that we wanted Eileen to
say yes to, and ultimately they would get made. And
you get to see your television shows on Discovery Channel
and I love to go pitch and.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I would pitch my ass off in those rooms.
Speaker 6 (34:46):
One day, she took me aside and she's like, Joe,
She's like, you know, I love what you do, but
everything you bring in this room you love. She's like,
you can't love everything. And she's like, I'm you know, like,
then then I can't believe when you're telling the truth
or not in regards to a show. And it was such,
(35:08):
you know, like it took me back for a little
bit because you always want to sell sales, sell, but
she was right, you know, what are the words of
this show? What could be the concerns you know on
the other side of this, Why shouldn't we do this show,
you know, is it you know talent or they're not
experience enough. There's so many things to look at when
(35:30):
you're determining whether or not you're going to do a show.
And you know, that is definitely something that I pay
forward now, because you need to be honest with what
you have in front of you and determine if it's.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Going to be great.
Speaker 6 (35:45):
So don't always sell sales sell is the advice I
would pay forward.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
You know, brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Okay, guys, wrapping this up when history looks back upon
you in twenty five years to say, what do you
hope people will say was your true significance.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
Well, I was recently given a very nice tribute by
the Producers Alliance of Cinema and Television, which is a
big international groups representing producers, and it was a tribute
for thirty years of disruption, innovation and creativity. So of
course I was extremely touched and pleased by that. And
I think I would like to add one thing, which
(36:30):
is that when I set up my company back in
two thousand and one and then it's evolved over nearly
twenty five years now, I've worked tirelessly to create an
environment where good people feel empowered to do their best work.
And I think that's what I would like to be
remembered for.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
Yeah, I you know, the values of Argonon. I'm going
to say it one more day and time. It's authentic,
it's real, Like people love the culture of Argonon, you know,
whether they're working for or with or aside, Like it
is something that's so important to me. And I think
James has created something very special that he's bottled up
(37:11):
and it bleeds across all the the entire portfolio and
all the production companies and you know, to say it
in an American term like no assholes, you know, leave
your egos, you know outside the door, you know, and
you know you I've seen James on a set helping
(37:32):
crew load up gear at the end of the day
when everyone's so freaking tired, you know, lead by example
or hey pa, can I get you a coffee?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
We do whatever it takes.
Speaker 6 (37:44):
And that culture is you know, like it's not everywhere,
and you know, it was part of what attracted me
to come work alongside and for James. Uh, it's honor
and you know, I'm happy and to be able to
help carry on the torch and hopefully even make it brighter.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
That's fantastic, guys. You know I love having you on
this program. You are two forces of nature. And the
next version of the flexible method is coming out in
what in heart book version.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Or no in paperback in October paperback.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Okay, that's right, that's right, they do soft after paper
I solve that. That's correct, and that's coming out soon.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
But give us your website so people can follow the
company and all the great things happening within your enterprise.
Speaker 7 (38:34):
So the group is Argan on a r G o
O dot com and you'll find the seven different production
companies on there, including lepid Us which is based in
New York, and Rose Rock which is based in Oklahoma,
and then the other production companies, and you'll find us all.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
Tremendous.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
Thanks again, guys, and as we always say, we wish
everyone in our audience success, but on your way to
true significance.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Great
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Speaker 3 (01:06):
I think you have to do something significant fuel industry
and for the country, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And who decides it okay? Not the royalty. Interesting the
guys that.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Are talking about significance and dames and lords, those are
our guests today.
Speaker 5 (01:22):
James Verston and Joe Weinstock.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Here's the intros that I've written on both of you,
so bear with me. He was born not with the
silver spoon, but a camera lens in his eye and
a storyteller's heart in his chest before streaming was a
household word, before reality TV had found it. So James
(01:46):
Burstall was already scripting a different kind of reality, one
made of grit, integrity and cinematic honesty. He's the man
behind some of Britain's most compelling documentaries and dramas, the
driving force behind an Argonnon, a global group of production
companies that knows how to light up screens from London
(02:06):
to New York.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
And far beyond. But James is more than a producer.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
He's a mentor, a strategist, a crises navigator who's led
his team through stormy waters of a global pandemic not
by tightening the belt, but by opening his mind. And
now he's written the playbook on resilience. We've talked to
him before about it on the show. Quite literally, the
flexible method is his compass for leaders, entrepreneurs, and yes
(02:35):
even dreamers. So today we're here to talk about that journey,
that mission, and the why behind it all, along with
Joe Weinstock.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
In an era overrun with sequels, spin offs.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And screen time clutter emerges this man not seeking fame
but substance and Joe Weinstock is a name not yet
branded in bright Marky lights, but quietly extant to the
soul of storytelling. He's the CEO of Rose Rock Films,
where creativity meets conviction, and where he serves not just
(03:09):
as a producer, but as a curator of meaningful entertainment.
He's no ordinary Hollywood suit thank God. Before cameras rolled,
he was an entertainment lawyer, attorney, armed with contracts in
one hand and common sense in the other. A former
show buyer, Joe saw the industry from the inside, yet
(03:33):
never lost sight of what mattered authenticity. Guys, it's great
to see you again.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Amazing introduction.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Well, let's let's call it a day.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
You're done, so, James and Joe. Before we talk about
arguing on today, let's rewind. What is the moment or
the person in your personal journey that planted the seed
for you a creative and entrepreneurial spirit.
Speaker 7 (04:03):
Well, I started off, you said, I was born with
a lens in my eye. I did start off creating
shows as a very small child in elementary school where
I set up my first company.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And we did.
Speaker 7 (04:15):
We did Shearlotte Homes on the Christmas Turkey, which of course,
was absolutely forgettable and never to be repeat it. But
you know, as a seven year old boy, it was
very exciting and I loved it, and I managed to
persuade some friends in school to perform what was a
dreadful script, but we loved it at the time. So yeah,
(04:37):
I did go back a long way len in my life.
I thought I was going to become a theater director.
Actually I did a lot of theater at university and
always loved working with actors. Took a bunch of shows
to Edinburgh and so Edinburgh Theater Festival, which is like
the British absolute peak of theater, and thought that was
(04:58):
going to.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Be my path.
Speaker 7 (04:59):
And then and then I think I realized that if
I went into theater it would be very hard to
make a living unless I was one of the tiny,
tiny fraction of a percent who made it.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
So then went into journalism and then into TV.
Speaker 7 (05:13):
But I think one of the things that makes all
of us successful in our industry and indeed in life
is having this kind of multifaceted career, as does my
very dear friend and colleague Joe.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Yeah, you know, I think the moment that hit me
was when I was still in school.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I was actually in law school.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
And I was watching a television show where one of
our best friends was in a television show as an extra.
We got to see him just that split second with
Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and he was shutting a locker
room door, and we're like, that.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Guy made it.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
You know, I was not knowing that he didn't make it,
not even close, but it was like, holy shit, if Jed.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Can do it, we can do it.
Speaker 6 (06:03):
And ultimately, you know, I lucked my way into LA
got on a desk, and you know, just uh just
found my way into every meeting that no one's you know,
someone would say yes to until I couldn't get into
the meeting, and uh, you know, pretty much made my
own luck into a fun little television career in the
(06:26):
non fiction space.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Thank you, Jed.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
That is so great.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
You're both you both taken unconventional paths in the industry.
Tell me about one surprising detaur that each of you took.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Oh, I bet you got some good ones, James.
Speaker 7 (06:46):
Well, I mean I think that the facts the massive
is is that you're going to be open minded in
our industry. It isn't like a constancy or banking or
even the legal profession, whether it's an obvious progression, but
you step up the ladder.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
So I think you have to be.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Willing to make not necessarily u turns, but make kind
of steps to the side, and then try something different
if the first thing doesn't work. And I always say
to people who want to come into the industry, it's
very important to listen out for opportunities and when something
comes along your way, seize the day. One of the
(07:24):
things that I feel most strongly about in life is
you must follow your heart, and if your heart says
to you that this is an opportunity that I really
want to try, then you should. And one of the
things that I did very early on in my career
is I was leaving college, that's what you needed a job,
wrote to everybody, got rejected by a bunch of people
and didn't get responded to by a bunch of others.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But actually a firm in Paris.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
It was a bit like Time Out magazine now, which
is huge, but it's an American magazine in Paris called Passion.
They invited me to come over to paying me next
to nothing, but to come and learn how to put
a publication together. And indeed, the day I arrived at
that publication, all the senior American editors were walking out
the door because the.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Place is going bankrupt.
Speaker 7 (08:08):
So I was like, oh my god, this is my
dream career going out the door.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Thank goodness. The editor was staying and he said to
me and a.
Speaker 7 (08:15):
Couple of other hungry young Turks like me were also
starting on the same day, well, listen, if you can
help me continue to put the magazine together, I'll let
you try a bit of everything.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
So learn and behold.
Speaker 7 (08:26):
We did, you know, we literally we wrote stories, we
did interviews, we took photographs, we did the layout, and
every week we put this publication to bed. So of course,
at the end of three months, I had this incredible portfolio.
So I really would recommend, you know, anybody starting out
in the career, if something shortinly comes your way, and
maybe it doesn't look great at the beginning, nonetheless keep
(08:47):
going because something will come out of it that you
don't expect.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Good.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, I'd say.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
My detour kind of alluded to it with the first question.
You know, I practicing attorney in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and also
taught speech communication as an adjunct professor at Oklahoma State University. Uh,
just trying to figure out, you know, like I knew
that that wasn't my calling, and you know, like but
(09:15):
it was, you know what what I was told I
was going to do growing up, like practice law. But
ultimately I just said I didn't want to have a regret.
And seeing the success I used air quotes of my
friend being uh an actor, I'm like, I'm gonna I'm
gonna move out.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I at least have to try it, whatever it is.
Speaker 6 (09:39):
I wanted to be in entertainment, and turns out, Uh,
you know, reality television nonscripted was where I was supposed
to be. I just didn't know it. Uh, And I
would just say, no regrets. I took took my swing.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
That's good.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Isn't that the essence of the flexible Method? And then
at the heart of that book about following your heart, pivoting,
paying attention, being mindful of the gaps.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 7 (10:11):
I mean, if we fast forward, I've been running my
first production company for ten years from two thousand and
one till two thousand and ten, and at that time
I received an offer to sell the business, which is
a decent offer and the people who were proposing to buy.
I said, look, James, you need a promotion, need a
(10:33):
change the job. Why don't you come and run our
group and we'll do a kind of reverse takeover if
you like. And thought, well, that sounds exciting, and then
I went off to talk to two very important people.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
The first was.
Speaker 7 (10:46):
A mentor of mine who's a woman called Dorothy Byrne
who now runs a college. She's president of the college
at Cambridge University, incredibly impressive woman. At the time, she
was running news and current affairs at Channel four, which
is one of our big networks in the UK, and she.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Said, James, you know you do need a change. You've
been doing your job for ten years.
Speaker 7 (11:02):
But the trouble is, if you go and run that
particular company, you'll spend two years firing everybody.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It will be miserable.
Speaker 7 (11:10):
And you know your company, Leopard Films, has got a
clean bit of health and those skeletons in the closet.
If you don't want to run a group, go and
run a group, but just do it without them.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
So well, that's an interesting idea.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Then.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Actually, I have to say it was sad, but an
amazing gift. Final gift from my dad. My dad was
dying at the time, and he was in a hospital bed,
and I went to talk to him and I said
that Dad, I'm considering selling. And he said to me,
and well, James, you set up this extraordinary platform which
gives you total freedom to do whatever you want. If
you want to do investigative television, if you want to
(11:43):
do documentaries about climate change, if you want to do
reality shows, if you want to do scripted drama, you
can do all of those things running your own business.
As soon as you sell, you will lose that freedom
and it will perhaps never come again.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
So I listened very carefully to both of those.
Speaker 7 (11:59):
People and then went off to speak to some brokers
and thought about it very carefully.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Obviously, it was very traumatic when my dad died.
Speaker 7 (12:08):
I do believe absolutely the boy doesn't become a man
until his father dies.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (12:12):
And it was a very transformative and difficult time, of course,
as you can imagine. But actually on the back of that,
I went on to set up my group Argaanon and
it was one of the best things I did because
I was able to create a new group with a
whole new direction, attracting some incredible talent, including my dear
friend Joe here beside me, and started, you know, the
next fifteen years of my career. So I listened carefully,
(12:34):
and thank goodness, I did make that pivot.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Oh wow, Joe.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
I want you to address this concept of total freedom,
and I want you to do it in the context
of something I learned last week at a leadership conference. Okay,
so this is a I'm pivoting, I'm playing flexible method
of podcast. Well, this is this is what I learned
(13:00):
to this Joe, lead from a difference. We tend to
hire for difference. Then we ring the difference out of people,
forcing them to assimilate. I went, oh shit, I know
exactly what they're talking about. And it relates to what
you were saying, James, about being free to do what
(13:22):
you want to do. And then there's this other side
of you. Lead from a difference. You say one thing
and then you ring it out.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
You ring that difference out. Tell me what you think
about that.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Well, you know, leadership.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
You know comes in all different colors, you know, I
I think, uh, you know, follow your passions, follow your beliefs,
be your authentic self. Ultimately, you know, and you have
to make gut decisions. And I think so many leaders
these days, you know, make decisions based out of fear
(14:03):
rather than you know, what would be right or or
you know, what is the long term ramification of of
what decision you're making.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
But but you you have to, you know, you have.
Speaker 6 (14:17):
To go with your gut, and too many people don't
use their gut to make decisions, uh, to your point earlier,
the freedom to make that, and it is difficult, like
these these are not easy decisions, you know, uh, and
they all run the gamut. And every decision we make
right now in the television business, you know, is under
(14:39):
a microscope. And you know, realizing that and understanding that
when we're trying to sell television shows to folks that
there are concerned about, you know, where they might be
in twelve months, it makes things everything even more under
the microscope, as discussed earlier, and the you know, decision
(15:00):
making even more difficult. But appreciating that thirty Ku and
really following your passions and God is definitely the way
that we like to lead.
Speaker 7 (15:13):
I would also maybe add I think something else that's
really important, and Joe has this in bag fulls, and
that is humility I think you need to be humble
enough to realize that there are people out there who
are much cleverer than we are, and we need those
people on our team, and they are not a threat.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
When they are successful, they make us look good.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Right.
Speaker 7 (15:36):
There is a concept which I'm sure many of your
listeners will know, which is level five leadership, which Jim
Collins wrote about in his seminal book Good to Great,
Which is the level five leaders which I aspire to be,
tried to be, would love to be. Combine deep humility
with fierce resolve. So the humility piece is where you
(15:59):
are to listen to realize that you have weaknesses, that
other people can do somethings better than you, and therefore
it's better to put them in charge of that part
of the business rather than try to do it all yourself.
Also taking really serious responsibility for the business. You know,
the but does stop with us at the top. You
can't deflect. And then the fist resolve piece is when
(16:21):
you have made a decision based upon listening to all
those clever people around you, and you've got all the facts,
and you've done your due diligence and you've got all
the detail. Then you make the decision and you go
for it. One in our industry, as in so many sectors,
you cannot waiver. Once you've made your decision, you have
to follow it through with fifth resolve.
Speaker 6 (16:42):
I love that you know and actually haven't heard that term,
and I couldn't agree more with having that resolve. The
wishy washi gets us in trouble and you stick with
your decision. And I think, yes, been informed in listening.
You know, we can always do more of that, and
(17:03):
ultimately you have to make a decision, but take in
taking all that that you need to make that decision.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Listening, Yes, sir, Okay, we're going to take a quick
break and then we're going to be back with James
Burstall and Joe Winstock and continue to listen to them,
so we will be right back after this message.
Speaker 5 (17:26):
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Speaker 1 (17:28):
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you have?
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Speaker 2 (18:12):
Info and remember this tip.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Always remember this your kids don't want your stuff.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
And we are back with the One and Only's James
Burstall and Joe Weinstein. Hey, this book Radical Candor is
exactly what you guys were just talking about. And I
want to know since I think I was around when
the two of you guys got together. We did a
show on collaborating, and I'm wondering, how has your communication
(18:46):
process evolved with each other? Because Radical Candor basically says
when you care enough to tell it like it is
and kind of cut through the bs. How does your
communication evolved around rab Call candor and then tell me
how your meetings in New York are going this week
with people that you wish radically candid?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Thank you?
Speaker 7 (19:09):
Yeah, I mean we both really value honesty and in fact,
without honesty and radical candor in business, you really are
you know, you're done? I think to be honest. For me,
my business life is not that different from my personal life.
I think it's important to contend to continue the same
(19:30):
values from your personal into your professional life. And that
means for me being willing to be open, to be
willing to be humble, to be honest, to speak your truth,
sometimes carefully if it's something that's difficult to be heard.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
But also, you know, I have always with my family
and my.
Speaker 7 (19:50):
Friends, and indeed with my work colleagues, felt compelled if
I care about them, which I do, to sometimes go
to the difficult places that people don't want to hear,
because there is no greater love, frankly, than giving someone
a piece of thoughtful, kind observation, which is up to
(20:15):
them to then decide where they want to act on it.
And you know, sometimes people don't. Sometimes your words fall
on their fears. But I would feel bad. My conscience
would not allow me to speak the truth, both in
my personal life and indeed in my work life. So
if we take it back into the professional sphere, if
(20:37):
I think things are great, I'll say it.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
It's very important to celebrate the winds.
Speaker 7 (20:43):
But if I feel strongly that something needs to be said,
then I absolutely feel compelled to do so because I
care passionate about the product, and I think the product
at the end of the day is on which we
live and die. So if I feel stronger that there's
something missing or something and quite work, then I'm going
to say it. I don't always expect to be listened
to or do acted upon, but at least I've done
(21:05):
my job, which is speak what I believe to be important.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Rick, is that your book?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
That is my book?
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Congratulations? Like I can't wait to read it. I will
do it on my plane ride back. I love the
subject matter and I haven't heard it coin that way.
It certainly grabs my attention. And I think that goes
back to a word that we've said a couple of
times in this conversation is authenticity.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
You know, like let's be fucking real.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
And you know, like that is one thing that we
strive with the relationships that we have with buyers that
we're going up, you know, and talking to in the marketplace,
Like we want to have those real conversations and we
do get real and appreciate like what the three sixty
view is with everything that's going on with them with us,
(21:58):
and you know, what we're talking about or maybe presenting,
but life's too short, you know, like let's get to it.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
You know, and it's like, how do we get to it?
Speaker 6 (22:08):
And you know, like, because how you present that radical
candor is really important too, because it could be received
very negatively if it comes in the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I work with my dad on this.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
I'm like, Dad, you're giving me some good advice, but
the way you're telling me, I can't listen to it.
You know, so really refreshing, And I'm gonna steal that
term and make it my own for the rest of
the week.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
In the book Truly Significant is a feature article on
Kim Scott, who came from Google and she was in
a meeting and she was presenting to the founder of Google,
who wasn't paying attention to her, and she sold whatever
she went in to sell. Her boss pulled her aside
(22:57):
afterwards and said, did you know that you said.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
The word.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Twenty seven times in that presentation? She went, I thought
it was I thought we accomplished what we wanted to
accomplish in that meeting. It's like, isn't it great to
have someone who actually tells the truth in the spirit
of wanting her to improve?
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, it's true, I tell you what.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
It's well in business, you know, people find it very
difficult to say yes and very difficult to say no,
And those are in some ways the two most important words.
We're in taking a bunch of meetings in New York
this week. We have a team here in New York,
and half of our American clients are based in New York,
the other half in Los Angeles pretty much. And you know,
(23:41):
to be truthful, I know a lot of networking executives
find it difficult to say no to our projects just
because sometimes they don't want to upset you, or they
you know, they don't want to let you down, but
actually and of course that they can't take them all. Unfortunately,
when they do say no, it's completely freeing for us
because we go, okay, fine, so that one's not right
(24:01):
for you, So what can we come up with. It's
going to be different than will work for you, so
that gives us a new stare on that far. And secondly,
we're not going to waste any more time. You know,
we'd much rather you said no now, so we drop
that it can move on. So saying no is difficult,
but it's so critically important.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
It is.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Indeed, what, by the way, if you were to give
a state of the industry today to our audience, what
is selling and what isn't selling?
Speaker 6 (24:30):
Uh uh, let's let's pour a drink and talk rick
like you know it is you know like it's it's
a that's a compounded question.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
You know what is different and what is moving the industry?
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Now?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Are unique deals? Uh you know where the network would.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
Green light a show and give you X amount of
money to produce the show and production company keeps a
production fee. It's now like hey, network will give you
one hundred thousand an episode and said, okay, we need
you to come up with the other seventy five percent
(25:18):
or fifty percent or twenty five percent of the budget,
whether that's a through another distributor or brands you know,
co productions and you.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Know what that's We're we're personally.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
You know, from a business standpoint, excited about this opportunity
because it is another way to get to it.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yes, and uh, you know, we have uniquely been prepared for.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
This moment and have been galvanizing and working on the
relationships to bring in that X factor to make these
shows a reality. You know, it is an exciting time,
but it is a different time in our business and
everything is being squeezed, and I think the creatives are
(26:09):
getting creative with how to get deals done and through uh,
you know, through.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
The finish line.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
In regards to the types of shows that are being greenlit,
it really just depends on you know, who you're talking to.
But IP is very important, you know, having something with
the built in audience attached to it when you come
in the room, whether it's talent or you know, a
(26:39):
board game or everything in between. You know, they're they're
looking for a built in eyeball. I think that's a
super important piece of the package these days.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Yeah, good to know.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Okay, So let's let's go beyond the executive desk. Now,
when you're not making decisions regarding teams, what grounds you
both personally?
Speaker 7 (27:09):
James, Well, I've always been very fierce with myself and
actually with my teams about time on and time off.
I know that people can't do good work if they're
exhausted or stressed out or frazzled. It just doesn't work.
And I know that for myself. So I've always been
(27:31):
pretty disciplined actually about making sure that I tried to
take weekends off. I try to leave the office between
six and seven in the evening.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I try to take vacations.
Speaker 7 (27:41):
I spend time at home with my family obviously and
my friends.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
I love going to walks. I love being in nature.
Speaker 7 (27:50):
Just recently, I was up at Niagara Falls at the weekend,
and that is just incredible. I mean, the power of
the beauty of that natural environment.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I was trying to imagine what it must have been
like for.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
You know, indigenous people way back when when they came
and they saw that, and there was no buildings and
no no other life there, and they must have thought
it was a truly spiritual place because it has this
extraordinary exceptional power of nature.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
So going into nature for me is a huge comfort,
very good.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
For me.
Speaker 7 (28:25):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (28:26):
You know, I think my kids keep me grounded. Uh,
you know, like, uh, they keep me humble.
Speaker 7 (28:32):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (28:32):
They remind me I'm just dad, and I tried to
do my damn damn just to be just their dad.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
It's an honor.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
And it's fun and fuel for my fire to come
home to my family after getting my ass kicked at work.
You know, that keeps me humbled, uh and fuel for
my fire.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
It's powerful. Since I saw you guys last time.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
My children are growing up and We've got one that's
almost four, and we said, what can Papa Rico do
that's different from anybody else in the world.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
So we're teaching him to tell stories. Papa Rico, Papa
Rico's my name you because wow.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
So he's telling, he's literally saying, Papa and cha cha,
my wife's name went to went to Peru to see
Machu beat you. And he's telling. He's starting to tell
us his story. And so we're exposing him to Mary
Poppins and to L. Frank Baum and the Wizard of
(29:38):
Oz and it's like, what if we could raise storytellers,
wouldn't that just be great?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's awesome, that's what we think.
Speaker 5 (29:51):
Okay, back to you guys. Two final questions for you.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
The first one is what's the one piece of advice
that you once resist but now you see as wisdom.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
By the way, just to go back to your four
year old, like, uh, storytelling, I mean that those are
the people that you remember throughout your childhood through your life.
Like to be able to tell a story, yes, you know,
like that that's everything. Uh you know that also the
creative juices that you can uh get just from doing
(30:25):
that and getting people to listen to what you were saying,
like you know, like there is so much that comes
out of that to be a storyteller, and.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
That is uh, that is a unique craft.
Speaker 6 (30:38):
And you know a good storyteller, you know when you're
around one, sorry, really really do.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
And there is a skill set to that.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
And I bet Papa Rico is a good storyteller.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
I'm attempting every time I get to interview people like you,
I go, oh, my gosh, listen to how they told that.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Answer that question. Oh, come on back to this question though.
But I've got some questions left, and you guys are
busy today.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
But first one is what was the one piece of
advice you once resisted but now you see his wisdom?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Now go.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
It's a difficult one, but we've given it some thought.
I mean, I do think that life is.
Speaker 7 (31:20):
Not a set of coincidences, and life is not set out.
I think that life is a product of the choices
that we make. And I remember vividly when I was
a student. I was graduating from university and I went
to see my career as advisory person and they ran
a very dull computer program and I sat waiting expectedly
(31:43):
to see what would come out the other side alone
before it came out, and advised me to be a
tax inspector. Of course, my heart sang, and I thought,
oh my god, this is the rest of my life.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
I'm going to struggle.
Speaker 7 (31:57):
Happily, I ignored that advice and went on to try
to do something different. And then one thing I will
say is that a number of times when I was
growing up, I was told, James, you must follow your heart,
so you must follow your head, not your heart.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
And I thought about that.
Speaker 7 (32:16):
Carefully because I thought, yes, okay, it's very important to
be practical, and I must make sure that I've got
enough money to pay my bills and all those things.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
So yeah, that is important.
Speaker 7 (32:24):
But at the end of the day, if your heart
isn't in something, you won't have a happy life and
you probably will not be successful. So I did decide
to go into the television industry, which is a dicey career.
You know, the career career in any sort of artistry
is that there are no guarantees. And I've taken very
(32:47):
big calculated risks, you know, setting up my company, and
every time we sell a show, we take a huge risk.
But to be truthful, I have done my best throughout
my life to follow my heart. And I think that
is probably the most important advice I would give anybody.
I mean, I have very dear and if he's the
nieces and god children who I'm very close to and
(33:09):
as that uncle who loves them daily and conditionally, I
always say to them, listen.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I want you to follow your heart.
Speaker 7 (33:16):
I don't care who you turn out to be, or
what you turn out to be, or what your choices are,
as long as you don't hurt yourself and you don't
hurt anybody else, and I will love you unconditionally for
whatever you turn out to be.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
So I do think you must follow your heart.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I love that.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
And again, James, that just goes back towards that word again, authentic.
You know, when you're following your heart, that is as
authentic as you can get, That's as real as you
can get. So you know, like that is definitely something
that I need to actually pass on to my kids.
I don't think I've ever said that to them, but
it has real meaning in you know, like it's your
(33:55):
real self.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
In regards for me. Advice that I resisted, but I
see it's wisdom, you know.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
I could think of one time, you know, like, you know,
we're in the business of selling things, right, and you know,
like we got tom we want to get to it.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yes, you know. Eileen O'Neill was our group GM.
Speaker 6 (34:22):
When I was on the buying side of things at
Discovery Channel many moons ago, and we would go into
green light meetings with concepts that we wanted Eileen to
say yes to, and ultimately they would get made. And
you get to see your television shows on Discovery Channel
and I love to go pitch and.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I would pitch my ass off in those rooms.
Speaker 6 (34:46):
One day, she took me aside and she's like, Joe,
She's like, you know, I love what you do, but
everything you bring in this room you love. She's like,
you can't love everything. And she's like, I'm you know, like,
then then I can't believe when you're telling the truth
or not in regards to a show. And it was such,
(35:08):
you know, like it took me back for a little
bit because you always want to sell sales, sell, but
she was right, you know, what are the words of
this show? What could be the concerns you know on
the other side of this, Why shouldn't we do this show,
you know, is it you know talent or they're not
experience enough. There's so many things to look at when
(35:30):
you're determining whether or not you're going to do a show.
And you know, that is definitely something that I pay
forward now, because you need to be honest with what
you have in front of you and determine if it's.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Going to be great.
Speaker 6 (35:45):
So don't always sell sales sell is the advice I
would pay forward.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
You know, brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Okay, guys, wrapping this up when history looks back upon
you in twenty five years to say, what do you
hope people will say was your true significance.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
Well, I was recently given a very nice tribute by
the Producers Alliance of Cinema and Television, which is a
big international groups representing producers, and it was a tribute
for thirty years of disruption, innovation and creativity. So of
course I was extremely touched and pleased by that. And
I think I would like to add one thing, which
(36:30):
is that when I set up my company back in
two thousand and one and then it's evolved over nearly
twenty five years now, I've worked tirelessly to create an
environment where good people feel empowered to do their best work.
And I think that's what I would like to be
remembered for.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
Yeah, I you know, the values of Argonon. I'm going
to say it one more day and time. It's authentic,
it's real, Like people love the culture of Argonon, you know,
whether they're working for or with or aside, Like it
is something that's so important to me. And I think
James has created something very special that he's bottled up
(37:11):
and it bleeds across all the the entire portfolio and
all the production companies and you know, to say it
in an American term like no assholes, you know, leave
your egos, you know outside the door, you know, and
you know you I've seen James on a set helping
(37:32):
crew load up gear at the end of the day
when everyone's so freaking tired, you know, lead by example
or hey pa, can I get you a coffee?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
We do whatever it takes.
Speaker 6 (37:44):
And that culture is you know, like it's not everywhere,
and you know, it was part of what attracted me
to come work alongside and for James. Uh, it's honor
and you know, I'm happy and to be able to
help carry on the torch and hopefully even make it brighter.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
That's fantastic, guys. You know I love having you on
this program. You are two forces of nature. And the
next version of the flexible method is coming out in
what in heart book version.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Or no in paperback in October paperback.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Okay, that's right, that's right, they do soft after paper
I solve that. That's correct, and that's coming out soon.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
But give us your website so people can follow the
company and all the great things happening within your enterprise.
Speaker 7 (38:34):
So the group is Argan on a r G o
O dot com and you'll find the seven different production
companies on there, including lepid Us which is based in
New York, and Rose Rock which is based in Oklahoma,
and then the other production companies, and you'll find us all.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
Tremendous.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
Thanks again, guys, and as we always say, we wish
everyone in our audience success, but on your way to
true significance.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Great
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