TrulySignificant.com presents Kevin Lawrence riffs about "Growth CEOs" versus the merely good CEO. What the heck does that mean? This conversation is NOT about making extra digits, it's about your company playing the IMPACT GAME.
Learn the most common misunderstandings of CEOs of what truly scales a business.
Kevin says "don't get sucked into the seduction of growth through improved efficiencies.
Hear about leading growth as a discipline. And listen to growth bottlenecks and how leaders can fix them. When you make decisions that cross the line and take your company out of your lane, you better surround yourself with smart advisors, board of directors and mentors.
For more information on Kevin's enterprise, email kevin@lawrenceandco.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
Learn the most common misunderstandings of CEOs of what truly scales a business.
Kevin says "don't get sucked into the seduction of growth through improved efficiencies.
Hear about leading growth as a discipline. And listen to growth bottlenecks and how leaders can fix them. When you make decisions that cross the line and take your company out of your lane, you better surround yourself with smart advisors, board of directors and mentors.
For more information on Kevin's enterprise, email kevin@lawrenceandco.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey, welcome back to Truly Significant dot com Presents. I'm
Rick Tookiny. We hope that you all are having a
great week and we hope that you enjoyed our show
yesterday on AI and Shane Tepper. Every time we talk
about AI, we learn more and more. That's the best
way to put it. Hey, today's guest is a great one,
(00:30):
Kevin Lawrence, author of a wonderful book, The Four Forces
of Growth, and a little bit about him. In the
world of business, we think it's easy to believe that
growth comes from working harder, moving faster, and doing more.
You know that that's not the case. People. We celebrate efficiency,
(00:52):
reward busyness, and often confuse motion with momentum. But every
once in a while, a voice rises a b of
the noise to remind us that growth, real sustainable growth,
is not an accident. It's actually a discipline. Kevin Lawrence
has spent more than three decades inside the war rooms
(01:12):
and boardrooms of leaders around the world, from manufacturing plants
to luxury brands, from scrappy startups to billion dollar empires.
I wonder which one you like the most, Kevin. Would
it be the scrappy ones, the billionaires.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I like the scrappy scrappys fun and hopefully they keep
that rolling here.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, what is surprise? And Kevin has seen the same pattern.
Companies that grow only by streamlining eventually stall, while those
that master for true forces of growth defy gravity. He's
the author of this book, Your Oxygen Mask, first, a
lifeline for leaders learning to breathe through burnout, and now
(01:54):
the four Forces of Growth, which we think is a
really simple, profound blueprint for scaling with sanity and purpose.
So with that we welcome the one and only Kevin Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thanks Rick, I'm thrilled to be here today.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yes, sir, all right, now, tell us about where you're
from originally, so at.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, you know, up in the North
corner up above Seattle. Oh yeah, and lived here my
whole life born. Where I live now is probably, i
don't know, twenty minutes from where I was raised. I'll
still live in kind of the same general era.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, that's a beautiful part of the world. How has
that culture kind of bled itself into everything you've ever
written or philosophized?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
It has, But I mean I travel around the world
with different people in different cultures, and I think more
of those other cultures have bled into my global view
of the world and human nature and things like that.
So I had it's a great foundational base. The wonderful
thing about this base is like grew up in a
community that was quite multicultural and a family that was
(03:04):
open and curious about different cultures and different ways of
thinking and being. So I think it opened my mind
to be prepared to work with people all around the world.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, it shows in your book too, And so I'm
going to start with some of our crazy questions. And
I warned you about Sure you write that streamlining and
efficiency can improve operations, but rarely drive real growth. What's
the most common misunderstanding CEOs have about what truly fuels scaling.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, I think that's and part of what you said
is that people get very excited and we take great
pride in improving and fixing problems and making the business
more efficient. But it's distracting for a lot of leaders
that want to grow companies because the things that actually
grow the business, which is adding more customers or products
or services or locations, that's a totally different motion than
(03:58):
streamlining all of your operations better deliver on whatever it
is you promise people. And as businesses grow, people get
sucked into this I call seduction of streamlining, and it
pays like it does make the business better. It just
pulls resources away or fuel away from the growth engine.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Oh so true. And often in the last thirty forty
years that I've experienced it, they think that six sigma
and all these other efficiencies are the sexiest, most romantic things,
and they go, well, if I'm a good CEO, I've
got to do it. And so that leads me to
(04:36):
the question of how do you distinguish between a good
CEO and a growth CEO.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, again, it all depends on what the business aspires to,
right Like if you want to, for example, if you're
in aircraft manufacturing, you need six sigma and nobody else,
almost nobody else on the planet does. It's so complex
and burdensome to an organization. It all often is overkilled.
But there are places we need. I'm thrilled that the
(05:03):
airline aircraft industry uses that because we need that. But
it depends on the aspiration of the organization and truly
is the organization meeting its objectives, that's right. And a
good CEO consistently leads the organization to whatever its objectives are.
Some organizations don't want a lot of growth. Some want
an incredible amount of growth. So if the organization has
(05:27):
aspirations to grow, generally the best CEOs are out front,
connected with the marketplace and what's going on in the market.
They're not in their offices the whole bunch because the
opportunities and all the answers are never in the office.
They're generally in the market and growth CEOs need to
be out there.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And that's exactly right. When did you first realize that
growth itself and leading growth is a discipline?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Oh, that's a great question. When did I realize? I
think this would probably go back close to twenty years ago,
and I had a client that was thriving. They were
growing incredibly well. They were efficient and profitable, and I
didn't know it at the time because it was new
to me and I was only a decade into doing this.
(06:19):
And they started to really focus on streamlining and driving
profitability and they took their eye off growth and the
business did real well. It got you know, the profit
group for quite a while, but then it started to
slow and it became well, the girl stopped and then
we had to figure out how to restart it, and
it was mostly what I see in all of this
is that people inadvertently make bad choices and they don't
(06:41):
even realize it. And when we make a bad choice
on the highway, we have those little rumple strips on
the side of the road that vibrate if you go
off the road and like, hey, get back on the road,
or newer technology cars have technology that if you cross
the line, it wants to pull you back into your lane.
But for businesses and see, they don't have it out
middle of nowhere, and they don't have anything giving them
(07:02):
that feedback, and they inadvertently make choices that they don't
even realize they're bad. And that's yeah. So since that
I see it all the time now, I see almost
every time when a CEO calls us and says, hey,
we need help to our growth is kind of not
doing well or the business isn't performing right. It's so
easy to see now that once you see it and
understand it, it's kind of hard not to see it consistently.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
It's true, it's weird that you say that about those
little ripple things on the side of the road. That
the reason why people have crazy people like me on
their boards is to remind them to get back in
the lane of growth.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So why is it important beyond the obvious that that
CEOs surround themselves with advisors and mentors that are growth oriented, well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Because your executives generally aren't. Executives' jobs are to hold
it together and make it work. They are the trouble shooters,
the optimizers, the improvers. That is their job, and a
majority of executives aren't growth oriented. So the best way
I put it is, you've got two different mindsets in
a business, and you can call it the entrepreneur, which
is focused on growth, and then you have the operator
(08:14):
or the accountant who wants the machine to run like
a Swiss watch, and you'd need both different mindsets. But normally,
almost all executive teams are buried doing their job to
make the business run really, really well and perform in
a shorter to medium term, and the CEO needs somebody
to be connecting with longer term growth because it's unlikely
(08:36):
to be inside the business. There might be one of
the execs that is a thought partner on it, but
usually you need external stimulus or thought partners to help
CEOs be dialed into that and to stay there and
not get dragged into all the operational challenges.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Oh so true. One could argue Kevin Lawrence that you
are at your peak wisdom in your life. And and
if Ricky here were to win that argument, I would say, so,
why isn't Kevin out there as the chairman of the
board for a company that's lacking growth? And or why
(09:14):
aren't you running a company that needs to be scaled up?
So you parachute in fix it, recruit the Kevin Lawrence protoge,
and then go on to do that because I think
you're at your peak wisdom point.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, I'm at the highest I've ever been, that's for sure,
and I hope it continues to get better. But yeah,
I have thought about that a lot, Rick because I'm like,
I know this game like the back of my head.
It's really simple, like the game like it is very
very simple, except it's been thirty years with spectacular entrepreneurs
through really good times and really bad like I've been
a part of probably probably now almost half a billion
(09:55):
dollars of bad decisions, bad choices made sense on the
spread sheet sounded good in the room, but I'm talking
burnt cash, not opportunity costs. So the wisdom I've gained
through the amazing people I've worked with is it's almost
an impossible education from my view, but I love just
I love working with and helping the clients and end
(10:16):
up building a firm. So now I'm doing it on
a small scale. We have a boutique firm. There's twenty
of us, which we're gonna grow like crazy. But I
get the kick out of being the coach and the
advisor and the co pilot, let's call it, and I
get I get some of that kick inside my own firm.
I just I love helping people and I just love
doing it like I get a lot of reward from it.
(10:38):
Like after this today, I got a bunch of calls
with CEOs I work with, And so I have thought
about it. I've chosen to keep being in this seat
versus going and stepping right into the role of the
CEO and a big company.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
That's beautiful. Bridge to the reason why you're on the
show today. It's not to promote your books. It's about
celebrating your significance because we think you've got this great
ripple effect going on, and that there's this gap of
knowledge and skill set when it comes to how to
(11:14):
scale up a company, and you could choose to be
one of one, but you've got this umbrella effect and
you can actually impact more right now in your life
from a significant perspective. And when we see somebody like
you in this position who takes this wisdom and you
(11:34):
roll it forward, we dream about companies that could have
cultures of giving back. But you can't give back if
you've got a scarcity mentality. You can't give unless you
have something to provide and you have excess income. So
we see you as one of those shepherds.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
That's how I feel like talking to one of the
CEOs I work with the other day, and his business
is thriving and he's big on giving back. Lots of
our clients are really big one. He's got a lot
of his personal goals about how much he can actually
give of his time and money, and he's and I've
got quite a few clients that are like that, but
this particular and we're talking about it and he's doing
(12:19):
a transaction, there's gonna be a lot of zero's dropped
into the company bank accounting. He goes, you know, most
people would think they've got it made and stop and
I go, yeah, man, but this is not about money.
We're not playing a money game. We're playing an impact game.
How much good can we do in the world, what's
given to us? How much good can we radiate? And
that's at the end of the day. What else is there?
(12:41):
I mean, most of the people I work with have
multi generational capital. They third jed, fourth generation, doesn't need
to work, lots of them. But that's once you get
to that point. The young version of me thought that
the game was make money, be successful, and have a
great life. Really, what the game is when you get
here is like, huh. You build on a abundance of
resources and joy and all kinds of things, and then
(13:03):
how much good can I do with it in a
way that's fulfilling for me? How much how much good
can I radiate in the world. Most of the people
I work with are not playing the money game. They're
playing the impact game. And that's fun. It's it's rewarding.
Sometimes it's a bit too fun because you can get
really reeled into it and it can really pull you hard.
But that gots know what's the best the most successful
(13:25):
people I know that's the game they're playing or the
ones around me, and that's like, that's the best. It's
a party.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
It's a party.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Oh, it's a party. You're singing.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
You're singing my favorite music now in songs.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Okay, with that having been said, now let's promote your
book because now we know, we now know the real side,
the real DNA. Tell us about your latest book and
all your books and where they can purchase them.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, well, I mean you get all that stuff on Amazon.
I'm sure it's in a bunch of bookstores. Scaling up
as a book I did earlier on with somebody else
I group, uh Producazelle's and a guy named Vern Harnish.
And that's about scaling the organ It's like the tools
that you need to align your team to scale your
oxygen mask. First is about scaling yourself as a leader
and then dealing with the challenging times when we you know,
(14:13):
we hit the wall often, you know, people getting burnt
out and or just hitting their own ceiling. How do
you break through and scale yourself? And four forces is
just it's a strategic discernment level it's it's it's it
shows you the invisible things that you're fighting as a
CEO and executive, and how you can easily get what
we called spatial disorientation, how you can be very passionately
(14:35):
making the wrong choices and not know it. And it's
a good This happens to good people all the time,
and it becomes a simple instrument to help you to
recalibrate to make sure your your ambitions of growth match
your actions or or allocation of resources towards growth, which
is it's real simple, But when you're in the middle
(14:55):
of it, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Own away by your common sense. And I'm also sitting
here challenged from the perspective of how many mid market
companies don't have common sense.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
It's hard, it's hard. It's hard when you're in the
middle of the battle. It's like they have the common
sense in the back of their brain, but when you're
in the middle of the battle, you can't see it.
It's like, you know, if you go back to the
olden days, like hundreds of years ago, in physical battles,
when people with horses and spears and things, you didn't
have drones to zoom up to five thousand feet and
(15:33):
see the battlefield. And in many ways, you know, people
like us that have more wisdom or more experience or exposure,
let's say, and have an ability to zoom out and
see it. I can see it from miles away. I
can talk to a CEO for five ten minutes and
understand what's going on and why they're probably having the
(15:53):
challenge they're having because I've seen it forty fifty five
hundred times before. It's it's all earned. Wisdom's earned. Perspective
is earned, and it's but when you're in the middle
of it, it's darn hard, which is again why I
love doing this.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yes sir, all right, well, we're going to cut to
a quick commercial. Speaking of history. This is a message
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Speaker 1 (18:05):
We are back with author Kevin Lawrence. He's more than
an author. He's playing the impact game with CEOs out
there and has such a keen in depth understanding of
how much good we can radiate. And so the back
half of the show we're going to ask perhaps some deeper,
(18:28):
more philosophical questions. Let's start with this one. Many CEOs
achieved great success only to find themselves mentally and emotionally depleted.
What does your company do to help pull them up
by the bootstraps so they can think clearly and try
(18:50):
to do as much good as possible.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, there's two things. When someone's depleted, they're not usually
in the best position to do their best or radiate
the best. So we got to figure out what's what's
causing it. And normally a lot of most successful people
they've worked real hard and ground themselves down, and then
usually there's one or two major things in the business
that are draining them or depleting them. Usually those one
(19:15):
or two things are humans, you know, they're they've they've
got what I call too many part time jobs where
the CEO is backfilling for a week executive and they're
acting to kind of cover for someone who's not thriving
in their role. So we got to go and figure
out what the fundamental drains are on the system, and
then from there figure out the solution. And over time
(19:35):
you can rebuild it, you know, and make the changes
you need to get it back. But the root of
it is we've got to get the CEO into their
sweet spot where they're doing their best work, and their
work is generally energizing as much as it can be.
Uh and and basically eliminating those drains on the system. Good.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
You've seen it all, But have you seen it all?
Tell us about the last time you were prized at
what you found out at a client which can remain anonymous,
and what have you've done to learn from that new lesson.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Years in it? I have seen it all, what well?
I will say one of them is potentially intellectually the
smartest CEO I have ever worked with, Like I am
estimating for sure. They're well into mensa intelligence and they
(20:35):
are so intelligent, and they are pushing so hard. I
had to bring get them to come down like five
five floors in the office tower to be able to
communicate with normal humans and translate and get them to
even understand so insanely successful, brilliant, but because of the
(20:59):
EQ all it's like all of their capability is in
their IQ and almost zero in their EQ and having
to find ways to bridge the gap to get them
to be an effective CEO. And yeah, and this person's awesome.
I guess they're a great, brilliant leader. But to bring
(21:19):
a team along and do the leadership part of their roles.
It's been the biggest stretch in that ever, and we've
had to come up with some new tools and techniques
to help them to be able to connect with and
bring their team along.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Oh, I'm glad that you mentioned EQ, because emotional intelligence
is what we study most here, along with dephanies and significance.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
When you were describing that, it makes me think of
hospitals and medical systems in general that are run by
what we what we would call in the nineteen sixties
eggheads who had this incredible IQ and could outthink and
out smart anybody. But what was as my mom would say,
(22:10):
what's their bedside manner?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yep, And so how are you teaching bedside manner in
twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah? I am teaching a lot of bedside manner, not
just with this one, with many of the CEOs in
different ways, and because part of it is having seen
the patterns of what good bedside manner is with really
strong driven people and sharing perspective. So one, I mean,
obviously we asked a lot of questions, but specifically if
(22:40):
I go to this particular CEO, is just after they
have done something that is not great just outside the room. Hey,
if we're in a room with their team, did you
notice that? Or what did you think about that? And
literally walking through and breaking down individual conversations, whether I've
witnessed them or or he was just telling me about
(23:01):
struggles he's having. What are you doing? What are you thinking? Okay,
what do you think they're thinking? Okay? What was the
result that you want? And actually at a micro level,
breaking down and re engineering conversations and then having him
go out and test it. And because this person this
is all new to them, they'll write down and have
(23:22):
some concepts, then they'll go test it, and what they
learn on this one interaction becomes almost a muscle they
can use in other But it's conversation by conversation, talking
about it before they go and do it, then talking
about it after what did you learn? And iterating like crazy.
It's in many ways in the most respectful way, it's
(23:44):
it's like teaching a child to ride a bike whose
parents never taught them to ride a bike in the
most loving, caring, respectful way, and sometimes very intense way,
like a couple of brothers fighting. But it's having to
teach it because this person never learned it and and
it has it can be learned, and it might still
be a little bit mechanical with this person, but they
(24:07):
at least can have the right intent and the right motions.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
That's right. You're actually playing a father.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Role in many ways with this particular case. I am
a healthy father helping a man to be a good
man in the world. And I do the same with women.
It's not just men, but in many ways it's it's yeah,
that's why with the with the CEOs, well, I gotta
I gotta really be able to connect with them because
(24:34):
you got to get in there. And for a lot
of the clients we work with, it's a really it's
a it's a relationship where we're working together. They also
give me crap and push back like it's a you know,
but yes, it's helping people with gaps that they haven't
learned early earlier in their life.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Of course, I was reading yesterday about the impatience of
all of us, and it came down to statistic of
two out of five people will drop off of a
transaction online if we're not if their expectations aren't met
within seconds.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Believe it, It.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Makes me think about you in front of your clients
and those that want an instant solution to the problem
that you are observing. So you come in as a
polaroid camera, take a picture, and then give a quick diagnosis.
How do you how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
We tell them it takes a couple of years. There's
no instant solutions in this game. We're building enduring great
companies and we're also building enduring great humans, and this
takes time. This is not something that happens immediately. And so, uh,
(25:52):
we're looking for people who have a long term view.
If they want quick fixes, we are not the firm,
We are not the people to help. We are building
and layer great disciplines, great purpose, great organizations. It takes time.
But if they want to quick fix, I'm sure someone
will sell it to them.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
That's not us to thine own self, be true, that's
just great.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
So you've helped all these build these companies across four continents,
and you talked about greatness and enduring greatness. What patterns
actually unite the great ones?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Generally, they really give a crap about their people. They
truly want to do well by their people. And secondly,
they are obsessed with growth and excellence, like they truly
want to do something great and build something great. We
know with this one client and they started with a
(26:53):
small little business at farmers' markets, and they want to
build a billion dollar business period and they're almost half there,
and there's all kinds of levers and things that they're
doing to constantly improve. But there's a lot of purpose,
a lot of purpose in the organization and they want
to hit a billion dollars and they have since they
were young, since they were, you know, in their early twenties,
(27:13):
and so they just continue to march on and it's hard,
but they they but so they want it and then
they really they're they're like good people, like at least
the ones that we work with, like they're humans you
want to spend time with. And they're all a little
bit crazy, like you would. You have to be a
little bit crazy to do that, right. They gotta you
gotta something needs to be not one hundred percent right.
(27:35):
But because what those happens, those people build strong loyal
teams who want to be a part of their mission
or their purpose. They're not just there for the money.
They're there because there's something else going on.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And that's what is so riveting about it. Okay, final
couple questions for you. You parachute into a company and
you have a two year plan. Let's say, how can
you guide the entire culture? You're bringing up new leaders,
(28:11):
fresh thinking and to get everyone to play in the
impact game. How do you bring how do you bring
the herd forward knowing that you're creating new generations of leaders.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
M hm, Well, Number one, it's really important what the
CEO and executives focus on and talk about a reward
in the organization, Like what are the messages that they're
conveying consistently and if they're talking about making a difference
impacting customers or whatever or whichever stakeholder they're focused on,
(28:45):
that radiates right. I always remember one time a CEO
actually a chairman I worked with in the Middle East,
you know, he had an iPad and started having an
iPad in our meetings. Within every executive had an iPad.
Then another one this see, a different CEO used to
have one of those those briefcases on wheels that almost
(29:08):
like lawyers would have yep, So that all the executives
every other company I go to, nobody has a briefcase
on wheels. Like nobody of thousands of executives, but in
this company, everyone's got them because people are following the
lead of the CEO or the senior leaders. And that's
so important. People model that dramatically, and so what they're communicating,
(29:29):
what they're saying and what they're pointing to being is important,
is very very important. And then two, who do we hire?
And more importantly, who do we promote? Because the people
we promote is the culture, all the words and all
the culture that's just fluff that that means nothing. But
who are the people that we're promoting and spotlighting and
(29:50):
putting into more important roles that is truly saying what
what that culture is? So which again is a reflection
that's that's not words from the ce or executives. That's
decisions that everyone else on the team can see.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Powerful. Okay, I got to get in a bonus question here.
What's the most dangerous advice in your industry that companies
are blindly following?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Oh, dangerous advice?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Most dangerous.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I'll go first to the CEO. Uh yeah, that that
that for a lot. And if you go on the
more in the family or on the entrepreneurs side versus
the private equity backside that you know obviously, like you
got to have an exit. What's your exit plan? What's
(30:45):
your exit plan? Like? A lot of people get caught
up in that, and that's almost more like how are
you gonna win the money game when you're trying to
play the purpose game. And for a lot of founders
that play in the purpose it's not about money. And
if people understood, they wouldn't be talking about it's because
they don't care. They just want to continue to do
good in their world. And the ideal is to be
(31:06):
able to thrive while you're building the company. The second
one is, I believe is people over index on financial incentives.
You got to get a long term incentive plan. Oh,
you got to do all this stuff. And of course
accountants and lawyers love doing all those programs. But if
you're building a great company, you should reward your people
(31:28):
and treat them well. But people over index on financial incentives.
If people actually care that much about money, they'd start
their own business. Most executives are not, I mean, they
want to be rewarded. We want to be rewarded. But
people get caught in the world of over indexing on
financial incentives and that leads people down the road. It's like,
(31:50):
at the end of the day, what I say is,
if your people are here primarily for the money, we
have a whole bunch of other issues and not saying
don't pay people well and reward them and give people bone.
This is when the company does well, but people get
way over indexed on them thinking it makes a difference,
and I think it leads to all kinds of problems
and really is a symptom of another issue.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Thank you, professor. The final question is how do we
get company cultures straight on being in the game of
significance versus success?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You talk about the purpose right and and you know,
and one of the chapters in your Oxygen Mask first
what you would love is called head success versus heart success.
That's chapter one in the book. Head success is achievement
and ego and accomplishment, and we all need some of that.
Heart success is how you feel and that sense that
(32:43):
you get inside of being good and doing good. And
for a lot of people when you win the game,
you need both. For sure, we're all achieving the right people,
but heart success is the real enduring win. And when
you bring that into a business, which we do through
purpose and the great work at gym Alans and his
work about finding core purpose when you keep the purpose alive,
(33:05):
and then secondly you figure out the next mountain you're
gonna climb, which is like that head success. I think
you need both to really really thrive. And again, sometimes
people over index on head success and not enough on
the heart or the purpose.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
He's Kevin Lawrence, and you better buy his books. And
how does our listening audience contact you and your firm
to learn more?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, just look up Lawrence and Company Growth Advisors to
find our website Lawrence and Co. We've got all kinds
of resources, case studies, like we're sharing as much as
we can. And then we know some people want some help,
and then they can call us and will help them.
Some people just want the resources to figure it out themselves,
and whatever works, we're happy to help.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Thanks again to Kevin Lawrence for being on Make sure
and buy his books go to the link that he
just provided. And we sign off every show with we
wish everyone's success on their way to significance. I'm gonna
edit that today to say we wish everyone heart's success,
(34:12):
but heart significance
Hey, welcome back to Truly Significant dot com Presents. I'm
Rick Tookiny. We hope that you all are having a
great week and we hope that you enjoyed our show
yesterday on AI and Shane Tepper. Every time we talk
about AI, we learn more and more. That's the best
way to put it. Hey, today's guest is a great one,
(00:30):
Kevin Lawrence, author of a wonderful book, The Four Forces
of Growth, and a little bit about him. In the
world of business, we think it's easy to believe that
growth comes from working harder, moving faster, and doing more.
You know that that's not the case. People. We celebrate efficiency,
(00:52):
reward busyness, and often confuse motion with momentum. But every
once in a while, a voice rises a b of
the noise to remind us that growth, real sustainable growth,
is not an accident. It's actually a discipline. Kevin Lawrence
has spent more than three decades inside the war rooms
(01:12):
and boardrooms of leaders around the world, from manufacturing plants
to luxury brands, from scrappy startups to billion dollar empires.
I wonder which one you like the most, Kevin. Would
it be the scrappy ones, the billionaires.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I like the scrappy scrappys fun and hopefully they keep
that rolling here.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, what is surprise? And Kevin has seen the same pattern.
Companies that grow only by streamlining eventually stall, while those
that master for true forces of growth defy gravity. He's
the author of this book, Your Oxygen Mask, first, a
lifeline for leaders learning to breathe through burnout, and now
(01:54):
the four Forces of Growth, which we think is a
really simple, profound blueprint for scaling with sanity and purpose.
So with that we welcome the one and only Kevin Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thanks Rick, I'm thrilled to be here today.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yes, sir, all right, now, tell us about where you're
from originally, so at.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, you know, up in the North
corner up above Seattle. Oh yeah, and lived here my
whole life born. Where I live now is probably, i
don't know, twenty minutes from where I was raised. I'll
still live in kind of the same general era.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, that's a beautiful part of the world. How has
that culture kind of bled itself into everything you've ever
written or philosophized?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
It has, But I mean I travel around the world
with different people in different cultures, and I think more
of those other cultures have bled into my global view
of the world and human nature and things like that.
So I had it's a great foundational base. The wonderful
thing about this base is like grew up in a
community that was quite multicultural and a family that was
(03:04):
open and curious about different cultures and different ways of
thinking and being. So I think it opened my mind
to be prepared to work with people all around the world.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, it shows in your book too, And so I'm
going to start with some of our crazy questions. And
I warned you about Sure you write that streamlining and
efficiency can improve operations, but rarely drive real growth. What's
the most common misunderstanding CEOs have about what truly fuels scaling.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, I think that's and part of what you said
is that people get very excited and we take great
pride in improving and fixing problems and making the business
more efficient. But it's distracting for a lot of leaders
that want to grow companies because the things that actually
grow the business, which is adding more customers or products
or services or locations, that's a totally different motion than
(03:58):
streamlining all of your operations better deliver on whatever it
is you promise people. And as businesses grow, people get
sucked into this I call seduction of streamlining, and it
pays like it does make the business better. It just
pulls resources away or fuel away from the growth engine.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Oh so true. And often in the last thirty forty
years that I've experienced it, they think that six sigma
and all these other efficiencies are the sexiest, most romantic things,
and they go, well, if I'm a good CEO, I've
got to do it. And so that leads me to
(04:36):
the question of how do you distinguish between a good
CEO and a growth CEO.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, again, it all depends on what the business aspires to,
right Like if you want to, for example, if you're
in aircraft manufacturing, you need six sigma and nobody else,
almost nobody else on the planet does. It's so complex
and burdensome to an organization. It all often is overkilled.
But there are places we need. I'm thrilled that the
(05:03):
airline aircraft industry uses that because we need that. But
it depends on the aspiration of the organization and truly
is the organization meeting its objectives, that's right. And a
good CEO consistently leads the organization to whatever its objectives are.
Some organizations don't want a lot of growth. Some want
an incredible amount of growth. So if the organization has
(05:27):
aspirations to grow, generally the best CEOs are out front,
connected with the marketplace and what's going on in the market.
They're not in their offices the whole bunch because the
opportunities and all the answers are never in the office.
They're generally in the market and growth CEOs need to
be out there.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And that's exactly right. When did you first realize that
growth itself and leading growth is a discipline?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Oh, that's a great question. When did I realize? I
think this would probably go back close to twenty years ago,
and I had a client that was thriving. They were
growing incredibly well. They were efficient and profitable, and I
didn't know it at the time because it was new
to me and I was only a decade into doing this.
(06:19):
And they started to really focus on streamlining and driving
profitability and they took their eye off growth and the
business did real well. It got you know, the profit
group for quite a while, but then it started to
slow and it became well, the girl stopped and then
we had to figure out how to restart it, and
it was mostly what I see in all of this
is that people inadvertently make bad choices and they don't
(06:41):
even realize it. And when we make a bad choice
on the highway, we have those little rumple strips on
the side of the road that vibrate if you go
off the road and like, hey, get back on the road,
or newer technology cars have technology that if you cross
the line, it wants to pull you back into your lane.
But for businesses and see, they don't have it out
middle of nowhere, and they don't have anything giving them
(07:02):
that feedback, and they inadvertently make choices that they don't
even realize they're bad. And that's yeah. So since that
I see it all the time now, I see almost
every time when a CEO calls us and says, hey,
we need help to our growth is kind of not
doing well or the business isn't performing right. It's so
easy to see now that once you see it and
understand it, it's kind of hard not to see it consistently.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
It's true, it's weird that you say that about those
little ripple things on the side of the road. That
the reason why people have crazy people like me on
their boards is to remind them to get back in
the lane of growth.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So why is it important beyond the obvious that that
CEOs surround themselves with advisors and mentors that are growth oriented, well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Because your executives generally aren't. Executives' jobs are to hold
it together and make it work. They are the trouble shooters,
the optimizers, the improvers. That is their job, and a
majority of executives aren't growth oriented. So the best way
I put it is, you've got two different mindsets in
a business, and you can call it the entrepreneur, which
is focused on growth, and then you have the operator
(08:14):
or the accountant who wants the machine to run like
a Swiss watch, and you'd need both different mindsets. But normally,
almost all executive teams are buried doing their job to
make the business run really, really well and perform in
a shorter to medium term, and the CEO needs somebody
to be connecting with longer term growth because it's unlikely
(08:36):
to be inside the business. There might be one of
the execs that is a thought partner on it, but
usually you need external stimulus or thought partners to help
CEOs be dialed into that and to stay there and
not get dragged into all the operational challenges.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Oh so true. One could argue Kevin Lawrence that you
are at your peak wisdom in your life. And and
if Ricky here were to win that argument, I would say, so,
why isn't Kevin out there as the chairman of the
board for a company that's lacking growth? And or why
(09:14):
aren't you running a company that needs to be scaled up?
So you parachute in fix it, recruit the Kevin Lawrence protoge,
and then go on to do that because I think
you're at your peak wisdom point.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, I'm at the highest I've ever been, that's for sure,
and I hope it continues to get better. But yeah,
I have thought about that a lot, Rick because I'm like,
I know this game like the back of my head.
It's really simple, like the game like it is very
very simple, except it's been thirty years with spectacular entrepreneurs
through really good times and really bad like I've been
a part of probably probably now almost half a billion
(09:55):
dollars of bad decisions, bad choices made sense on the
spread sheet sounded good in the room, but I'm talking
burnt cash, not opportunity costs. So the wisdom I've gained
through the amazing people I've worked with is it's almost
an impossible education from my view, but I love just
I love working with and helping the clients and end
(10:16):
up building a firm. So now I'm doing it on
a small scale. We have a boutique firm. There's twenty
of us, which we're gonna grow like crazy. But I
get the kick out of being the coach and the
advisor and the co pilot, let's call it, and I
get I get some of that kick inside my own firm.
I just I love helping people and I just love
doing it like I get a lot of reward from it.
(10:38):
Like after this today, I got a bunch of calls
with CEOs I work with, And so I have thought
about it. I've chosen to keep being in this seat
versus going and stepping right into the role of the
CEO and a big company.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
That's beautiful. Bridge to the reason why you're on the
show today. It's not to promote your books. It's about
celebrating your significance because we think you've got this great
ripple effect going on, and that there's this gap of
knowledge and skill set when it comes to how to
(11:14):
scale up a company, and you could choose to be
one of one, but you've got this umbrella effect and
you can actually impact more right now in your life
from a significant perspective. And when we see somebody like
you in this position who takes this wisdom and you
(11:34):
roll it forward, we dream about companies that could have
cultures of giving back. But you can't give back if
you've got a scarcity mentality. You can't give unless you
have something to provide and you have excess income. So
we see you as one of those shepherds.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
That's how I feel like talking to one of the
CEOs I work with the other day, and his business
is thriving and he's big on giving back. Lots of
our clients are really big one. He's got a lot
of his personal goals about how much he can actually
give of his time and money, and he's and I've
got quite a few clients that are like that, but
this particular and we're talking about it and he's doing
(12:19):
a transaction, there's gonna be a lot of zero's dropped
into the company bank accounting. He goes, you know, most
people would think they've got it made and stop and
I go, yeah, man, but this is not about money.
We're not playing a money game. We're playing an impact game.
How much good can we do in the world, what's
given to us? How much good can we radiate? And
that's at the end of the day. What else is there?
(12:41):
I mean, most of the people I work with have
multi generational capital. They third jed, fourth generation, doesn't need
to work, lots of them. But that's once you get
to that point. The young version of me thought that
the game was make money, be successful, and have a
great life. Really, what the game is when you get
here is like, huh. You build on a abundance of
resources and joy and all kinds of things, and then
(13:03):
how much good can I do with it in a
way that's fulfilling for me? How much how much good
can I radiate in the world. Most of the people
I work with are not playing the money game. They're
playing the impact game. And that's fun. It's it's rewarding.
Sometimes it's a bit too fun because you can get
really reeled into it and it can really pull you hard.
But that gots know what's the best the most successful
(13:25):
people I know that's the game they're playing or the
ones around me, and that's like, that's the best. It's
a party.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
It's a party.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Oh, it's a party. You're singing.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
You're singing my favorite music now in songs.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Okay, with that having been said, now let's promote your
book because now we know, we now know the real side,
the real DNA. Tell us about your latest book and
all your books and where they can purchase them.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, well, I mean you get all that stuff on Amazon.
I'm sure it's in a bunch of bookstores. Scaling up
as a book I did earlier on with somebody else
I group, uh Producazelle's and a guy named Vern Harnish.
And that's about scaling the organ It's like the tools
that you need to align your team to scale your
oxygen mask. First is about scaling yourself as a leader
and then dealing with the challenging times when we you know,
(14:13):
we hit the wall often, you know, people getting burnt
out and or just hitting their own ceiling. How do
you break through and scale yourself? And four forces is
just it's a strategic discernment level it's it's it's it
shows you the invisible things that you're fighting as a
CEO and executive, and how you can easily get what
we called spatial disorientation, how you can be very passionately
(14:35):
making the wrong choices and not know it. And it's
a good This happens to good people all the time,
and it becomes a simple instrument to help you to
recalibrate to make sure your your ambitions of growth match
your actions or or allocation of resources towards growth, which
is it's real simple, But when you're in the middle
(14:55):
of it, it's hard.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Own away by your common sense. And I'm also sitting
here challenged from the perspective of how many mid market
companies don't have common sense.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
It's hard, it's hard. It's hard when you're in the
middle of the battle. It's like they have the common
sense in the back of their brain, but when you're
in the middle of the battle, you can't see it.
It's like, you know, if you go back to the
olden days, like hundreds of years ago, in physical battles,
when people with horses and spears and things, you didn't
have drones to zoom up to five thousand feet and
(15:33):
see the battlefield. And in many ways, you know, people
like us that have more wisdom or more experience or exposure,
let's say, and have an ability to zoom out and
see it. I can see it from miles away. I
can talk to a CEO for five ten minutes and
understand what's going on and why they're probably having the
(15:53):
challenge they're having because I've seen it forty fifty five
hundred times before. It's it's all earned. Wisdom's earned. Perspective
is earned, and it's but when you're in the middle
of it, it's darn hard, which is again why I
love doing this.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yes sir, all right, well, we're going to cut to
a quick commercial. Speaking of history. This is a message
from Marcus Aurelius. Enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
This is Marcus Aurelius reappearing to proclaim that truly significant
conversations with big hearted people is a rare piece of literature.
This book reminds me of one of my more stirring quotes,
waste no more time arguing what a good man should
be be one if you're stepping into your next life
(16:47):
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Speaker 4 (16:51):
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Speaker 4 (17:11):
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Speaker 3 (17:23):
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Speaker 2 (17:32):
Maybe your epitaph will.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Read she gave outrageously extended grace unceasingly and lived to
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significant dot com and celebrate the most truly significant people
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(17:58):
of you to make your next chapter matter and be
truly significant to them.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
We are back with author Kevin Lawrence. He's more than
an author. He's playing the impact game with CEOs out
there and has such a keen in depth understanding of
how much good we can radiate. And so the back
half of the show we're going to ask perhaps some deeper,
(18:28):
more philosophical questions. Let's start with this one. Many CEOs
achieved great success only to find themselves mentally and emotionally depleted.
What does your company do to help pull them up
by the bootstraps so they can think clearly and try
(18:50):
to do as much good as possible.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, there's two things. When someone's depleted, they're not usually
in the best position to do their best or radiate
the best. So we got to figure out what's what's
causing it. And normally a lot of most successful people
they've worked real hard and ground themselves down, and then
usually there's one or two major things in the business
that are draining them or depleting them. Usually those one
(19:15):
or two things are humans, you know, they're they've they've
got what I call too many part time jobs where
the CEO is backfilling for a week executive and they're
acting to kind of cover for someone who's not thriving
in their role. So we got to go and figure
out what the fundamental drains are on the system, and
then from there figure out the solution. And over time
(19:35):
you can rebuild it, you know, and make the changes
you need to get it back. But the root of
it is we've got to get the CEO into their
sweet spot where they're doing their best work, and their
work is generally energizing as much as it can be.
Uh and and basically eliminating those drains on the system. Good.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
You've seen it all, But have you seen it all?
Tell us about the last time you were prized at
what you found out at a client which can remain anonymous,
and what have you've done to learn from that new lesson.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Years in it? I have seen it all, what well?
I will say one of them is potentially intellectually the
smartest CEO I have ever worked with, Like I am
estimating for sure. They're well into mensa intelligence and they
(20:35):
are so intelligent, and they are pushing so hard. I
had to bring get them to come down like five
five floors in the office tower to be able to
communicate with normal humans and translate and get them to
even understand so insanely successful, brilliant, but because of the
(20:59):
EQ all it's like all of their capability is in
their IQ and almost zero in their EQ and having
to find ways to bridge the gap to get them
to be an effective CEO. And yeah, and this person's awesome.
I guess they're a great, brilliant leader. But to bring
(21:19):
a team along and do the leadership part of their roles.
It's been the biggest stretch in that ever, and we've
had to come up with some new tools and techniques
to help them to be able to connect with and
bring their team along.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Oh, I'm glad that you mentioned EQ, because emotional intelligence
is what we study most here, along with dephanies and significance.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
When you were describing that, it makes me think of
hospitals and medical systems in general that are run by
what we what we would call in the nineteen sixties
eggheads who had this incredible IQ and could outthink and
out smart anybody. But what was as my mom would say,
(22:10):
what's their bedside manner?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yep, And so how are you teaching bedside manner in
twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah? I am teaching a lot of bedside manner, not
just with this one, with many of the CEOs in
different ways, and because part of it is having seen
the patterns of what good bedside manner is with really
strong driven people and sharing perspective. So one, I mean,
obviously we asked a lot of questions, but specifically if
(22:40):
I go to this particular CEO, is just after they
have done something that is not great just outside the room. Hey,
if we're in a room with their team, did you
notice that? Or what did you think about that? And
literally walking through and breaking down individual conversations, whether I've
witnessed them or or he was just telling me about
(23:01):
struggles he's having. What are you doing? What are you thinking? Okay,
what do you think they're thinking? Okay? What was the
result that you want? And actually at a micro level,
breaking down and re engineering conversations and then having him
go out and test it. And because this person this
is all new to them, they'll write down and have
(23:22):
some concepts, then they'll go test it, and what they
learn on this one interaction becomes almost a muscle they
can use in other But it's conversation by conversation, talking
about it before they go and do it, then talking
about it after what did you learn? And iterating like crazy.
It's in many ways in the most respectful way, it's
(23:44):
it's like teaching a child to ride a bike whose
parents never taught them to ride a bike in the
most loving, caring, respectful way, and sometimes very intense way,
like a couple of brothers fighting. But it's having to
teach it because this person never learned it and and
it has it can be learned, and it might still
be a little bit mechanical with this person, but they
(24:07):
at least can have the right intent and the right motions.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
That's right. You're actually playing a father.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Role in many ways with this particular case. I am
a healthy father helping a man to be a good
man in the world. And I do the same with women.
It's not just men, but in many ways it's it's yeah,
that's why with the with the CEOs, well, I gotta
I gotta really be able to connect with them because
(24:34):
you got to get in there. And for a lot
of the clients we work with, it's a really it's
a it's a relationship where we're working together. They also
give me crap and push back like it's a you know,
but yes, it's helping people with gaps that they haven't
learned early earlier in their life.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Of course, I was reading yesterday about the impatience of
all of us, and it came down to statistic of
two out of five people will drop off of a
transaction online if we're not if their expectations aren't met
within seconds.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Believe it, It.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Makes me think about you in front of your clients
and those that want an instant solution to the problem
that you are observing. So you come in as a
polaroid camera, take a picture, and then give a quick diagnosis.
How do you how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
We tell them it takes a couple of years. There's
no instant solutions in this game. We're building enduring great
companies and we're also building enduring great humans, and this
takes time. This is not something that happens immediately. And so, uh,
(25:52):
we're looking for people who have a long term view.
If they want quick fixes, we are not the firm,
We are not the people to help. We are building
and layer great disciplines, great purpose, great organizations. It takes time.
But if they want to quick fix, I'm sure someone
will sell it to them.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
That's not us to thine own self, be true, that's
just great.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
So you've helped all these build these companies across four continents,
and you talked about greatness and enduring greatness. What patterns
actually unite the great ones?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Generally, they really give a crap about their people. They
truly want to do well by their people. And secondly,
they are obsessed with growth and excellence, like they truly
want to do something great and build something great. We
know with this one client and they started with a
(26:53):
small little business at farmers' markets, and they want to
build a billion dollar business period and they're almost half there,
and there's all kinds of levers and things that they're
doing to constantly improve. But there's a lot of purpose,
a lot of purpose in the organization and they want
to hit a billion dollars and they have since they
were young, since they were, you know, in their early twenties,
(27:13):
and so they just continue to march on and it's hard,
but they they but so they want it and then
they really they're they're like good people, like at least
the ones that we work with, like they're humans you
want to spend time with. And they're all a little
bit crazy, like you would. You have to be a
little bit crazy to do that, right. They gotta you
gotta something needs to be not one hundred percent right.
(27:35):
But because what those happens, those people build strong loyal
teams who want to be a part of their mission
or their purpose. They're not just there for the money.
They're there because there's something else going on.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And that's what is so riveting about it. Okay, final
couple questions for you. You parachute into a company and
you have a two year plan. Let's say, how can
you guide the entire culture? You're bringing up new leaders,
(28:11):
fresh thinking and to get everyone to play in the
impact game. How do you bring how do you bring
the herd forward knowing that you're creating new generations of leaders.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
M hm, Well, Number one, it's really important what the
CEO and executives focus on and talk about a reward
in the organization, Like what are the messages that they're
conveying consistently and if they're talking about making a difference
impacting customers or whatever or whichever stakeholder they're focused on,
(28:45):
that radiates right. I always remember one time a CEO
actually a chairman I worked with in the Middle East,
you know, he had an iPad and started having an
iPad in our meetings. Within every executive had an iPad.
Then another one this see, a different CEO used to
have one of those those briefcases on wheels that almost
(29:08):
like lawyers would have yep, So that all the executives
every other company I go to, nobody has a briefcase
on wheels. Like nobody of thousands of executives, but in
this company, everyone's got them because people are following the
lead of the CEO or the senior leaders. And that's
so important. People model that dramatically, and so what they're communicating,
(29:29):
what they're saying and what they're pointing to being is important,
is very very important. And then two, who do we hire?
And more importantly, who do we promote? Because the people
we promote is the culture, all the words and all
the culture that's just fluff that that means nothing. But
who are the people that we're promoting and spotlighting and
(29:50):
putting into more important roles that is truly saying what
what that culture is? So which again is a reflection
that's that's not words from the ce or executives. That's
decisions that everyone else on the team can see.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Powerful. Okay, I got to get in a bonus question here.
What's the most dangerous advice in your industry that companies
are blindly following?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Oh, dangerous advice?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Most dangerous.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I'll go first to the CEO. Uh yeah, that that
that for a lot. And if you go on the
more in the family or on the entrepreneurs side versus
the private equity backside that you know obviously, like you
got to have an exit. What's your exit plan? What's
(30:45):
your exit plan? Like? A lot of people get caught
up in that, and that's almost more like how are
you gonna win the money game when you're trying to
play the purpose game. And for a lot of founders
that play in the purpose it's not about money. And
if people understood, they wouldn't be talking about it's because
they don't care. They just want to continue to do
good in their world. And the ideal is to be
(31:06):
able to thrive while you're building the company. The second
one is, I believe is people over index on financial incentives.
You got to get a long term incentive plan. Oh,
you got to do all this stuff. And of course
accountants and lawyers love doing all those programs. But if
you're building a great company, you should reward your people
(31:28):
and treat them well. But people over index on financial incentives.
If people actually care that much about money, they'd start
their own business. Most executives are not, I mean, they
want to be rewarded. We want to be rewarded. But
people get caught in the world of over indexing on
financial incentives and that leads people down the road. It's like,
(31:50):
at the end of the day, what I say is,
if your people are here primarily for the money, we
have a whole bunch of other issues and not saying
don't pay people well and reward them and give people bone.
This is when the company does well, but people get
way over indexed on them thinking it makes a difference,
and I think it leads to all kinds of problems
and really is a symptom of another issue.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Thank you, professor. The final question is how do we
get company cultures straight on being in the game of
significance versus success?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You talk about the purpose right and and you know,
and one of the chapters in your Oxygen Mask first
what you would love is called head success versus heart success.
That's chapter one in the book. Head success is achievement
and ego and accomplishment, and we all need some of that.
Heart success is how you feel and that sense that
(32:43):
you get inside of being good and doing good. And
for a lot of people when you win the game,
you need both. For sure, we're all achieving the right people,
but heart success is the real enduring win. And when
you bring that into a business, which we do through
purpose and the great work at gym Alans and his
work about finding core purpose when you keep the purpose alive,
(33:05):
and then secondly you figure out the next mountain you're
gonna climb, which is like that head success. I think
you need both to really really thrive. And again, sometimes
people over index on head success and not enough on
the heart or the purpose.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
He's Kevin Lawrence, and you better buy his books. And
how does our listening audience contact you and your firm
to learn more?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, just look up Lawrence and Company Growth Advisors to
find our website Lawrence and Co. We've got all kinds
of resources, case studies, like we're sharing as much as
we can. And then we know some people want some help,
and then they can call us and will help them.
Some people just want the resources to figure it out themselves,
and whatever works, we're happy to help.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Thanks again to Kevin Lawrence for being on Make sure
and buy his books go to the link that he
just provided. And we sign off every show with we
wish everyone's success on their way to significance. I'm gonna
edit that today to say we wish everyone heart's success,
(34:12):
but heart significance
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