Episode 159: Jessica and Alexia Reale

Episode Transcript
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This podcast contains descriptions of violence againstchildren, an adult language, and is
not suitable for all audiences. Listenerdiscretion is advised. Hi everyone, and

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welcome to Suffer the Little Children,the True crime podcast, giving voices back
to the victims of child abuse andshining a harsh spotlight on the parents,
guardians, and caretakers who Sighed launcesthem. I'm your host, Lane and
this is Episode one fifty nine.Jessica and Alexeia Real. In nineteen ninety
seven, a pair of sisters inElk Grove, California, endured the unthinkable.

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Their mother and stepfather, Barbara andLarry Carrasco, abused methamphetamine and somehow
became certain that Barbara's daughters, thirteenyear old Jessica and five year old Alexia,
were possessed by demons and vampires.To exercise the unwonted beings, Barbara
and Larry began forcing the girls todrink bleach milkshakes three times a day for

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eight days. When alexeiad died aroundJune nineteenth, nineteen ninety seven, Barbara
and Larry forced Jessica to watch themdo something unimaginably horrific. This is the
story of two girls who didn't standa chance against the delusions and abuse of
their mother and stepfather. It's alsoan incredible story of the survival, strength,

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and perseverance of Jessica, who joinsme on today's episode to tell me
about her sister Alexeia, the investigationinto Alexeia's death, and how therapy has
helped her to be the best possiblemother to her own three daughters. This
is the shocking story of Jessica andAlexeia Real. I'd like to take a
moment to thank my newest patrons,Amy H. From West Bend, Wisconsin

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and Whitney B. From Moorsburg,Tennessee. Thank you so much for your
support. To help keep this showgoing. You can make a monthly or
annual pledge at Patreon dot com slashst l c pod, or a one
time contribution at Kofi dot com slashst l c pod. Thank you all
so much for your help. NowI'll get right into the story. Brace

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yourselves, because there are a lotof horrific details, but they need to
be told. When Jessica Lynn Realwas six years old, she lived with
her maternal grannie, Margaret Barbara Realein California. Jessica's mother, Barbara Reale,

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wasn't involved much in her daughter's lifeuntil early nineteen ninety, when Jessica
and Margaret moved to a motel inSanta Cruz, California, to live near
Barbara and her new fiance, CharlesChang, who had three daughters of his
own. Margaret ran the front deskof the motel where she and her granddaughter
lived. The reason for this moveto Santa Cruz was that Barbara was pregnant.

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Jessica's baby brother, Chad, wasborn on October eighth, nineteen ninety
A few weeks later, Barbara alsoleft Chad to live with Margaret and Jessica
in the motel. Barbara and Charlesmarried in early nineteen ninety one, after
which Jessica expected they would all livetogether as a family, but it was
not to be. According to Jessica, Barbara chose Charles and his girls over

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her own children. Almost immediately.Barbara became pregnant again. Shortly after Alexei
Anne Real was born on September twentythird, nineteen ninety one, Barbara handed
her over to Margaret as well.Finally, in nineteen ninety two, the
whole family moved to Stagecoach, Nevada, Margaret, Barbara, Charles, Jessica,

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Chad and Alexia. Charles's three daughtersstayed behind with their mother in California.
Barbara began breeding English bulldogs for income. Yet again, Barbara became pregnant,
giving birth to baby Michael in Augustof nineteen ninety two. A few
weeks later, Barbara flew with Michaelto Pennsylvania and gave him up for adoption

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to a family friend. Jessica remembersBarbara being abusive a few times during this
time, during which her marriage toCharles fell apart. Jessica saw her mother
run the flame of a lighter overbaby Alexeia's feet while she sat in a
high chair, and Jessica remembered Barbarachasing her around the back yard brandishing a
fly swatter after Jessica accidentally sprayed herwith a hose. Barbara was also unpre

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predictable, showing signs of using meth. She was shaky, very thin,
and restless, and her face wascovered with scabs. She was rarely around,
saying she was always working, spendingdays and nights away from her kids.
The children were never allowed to playin Barbara's bedroom, but as children
often do, they gravitated toward thingsthey weren't allowed to do. One day,

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while Chad and Jessica were playing hideand seek, they opened Barbara's closet.
Chad found a plastic bag containing adark colored ball of some unknown substance
that appeared to be drugs, whichhe flushed down the toilet. When Barbara
eventually returned home and discovered her drugsmissing, she screamed at the kids,
and Chad confessed to flushing the baggywithout hesitation. Barbara punched her four year

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old son in the face so hardthat he fell and hit his head on
the sliding glass door. In thefall of nineteen ninety five, Jessica started
sixth grade and Chad started kindergarten.Barbara started being around, seeming happy,
saying she was dating someone new.One night, she got a bath ready
for Alexia. As soon as Barbaraput her younger daughter in the tub,

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Alexeia started screaming that it was toohot, but Barbara yelled at her and
washed her roughly, forcing her tostay in the tub until she was finished.
Alexeia's legs and buttocks were red asshe cried in her granny's arms,
but fortunately these were likely only firstdegree burns and didn't require medical treatment,
even so they had to have hurtterribly. During Jessica's sixth grade year,

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Barbara announced that she was married again, this time to a man named Larry,
and that the kids would be movingwith her to live with Larry in
a quiet suburban neighborhood in Elk Grove, California, which is a suburb of
Sacramento. Jessica started at yet anothernew school to finish sixth grade, but
Barbara did not re enroll Chad inkindergarten, even though he wanted to go

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back to school. Instead, Barbaradecided to send him away to Pennsylvania to
live with their baby brother, Michaeland his adoptive father, Michael Senior,
who eventually adopted Chad as well.When Alexeia turned five, Barbara also didn't
enroll her in kindergarten, leaving herhome alone with Margaret instead. Larry worked

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as a bus driver for Sacramento RegionalTransit until the fall of nineteen ninety six,
when he was beaten and robbed,causing him to become disabled. When
he began staying home with Barbara allday. The pair began fighting amongst themselves,
as well as yelling at Jessica andAlexeia. Frequently, Barbara dragged Larry
into her downward spiral of drug abuse. Concerningly, they also started talking about

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demons. Larry and Barbara became veryparanoid, thinking their house was bugged and
that people were out to get them. They nailed shut the windows in Jessica's
bedroom and put a lock on theoutside of the bedroom door, and in
early nineteen ninety seven, they eveninstalled a camera in the corner of the
room to watch Jessica. As itturned out, Barbara said the camera served

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a dual purpose to prevent Jessica fromleaving and to prove she was a demon
who was out to get Barbara andher unborn baby. Whether she was actually
pregnant or not is anyone's guess.Margaret confronted Barbara about her drug use,
saying she wanted to take Jessica andAlexia and move elsewhere to protect them.
She also threatened to call the police. The girls didn't get to say goodbye

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to their Grannie before Larry and Barbarakicked her out of the house. After
Margaret moved away to Pennsylvania, Jessicabasically took over as Alexeia's de facto mother.
Barbara didn't take care of her girls. Jessica was the one who had
to feed her baby's sister before headingoff to school, and because Barbara didn't
bother feeding Alexia, Jessica also hadto leave snacks for her sister to eat

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during the day. Jessica was alsoresponsible for cleaning the house and doing the
household laundry. She noticed that Barbarawas much meaner to Alexia. As Barbara's
behavior worsened and her ranting about demonsand vampires grew to a fever pitch.
Margaret occasionally called the local police toconduct welfare checks on the girls, who
told them everything was fine. Ofcourse they did. Larry and Barbara were

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right there with them. The girlsweren't even separated from their parents for these
welfare checks. Jessica was often lockedin her room if she wasn't cleaning.
One day, she heard Alexeia cryingand found her tape to a chair in
their parents walking closet, where Barbarawas chopping off hunks of Alexeia's long,
dark brown hair and calling the littlegirl an ugly, nasty Chinese demon.

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When Jessica yelled at her to stop, Barbara backhanded Jessica in the face and
Larry locked her in her room again. Things only got worse from there.
On September twenty fifth, nineteen ninetyseven, a woman saying she was a
friend of Margaret's, called the SacramentoCounty Sheriff's Department for a welfare check on
Margaret's six year old granddaughter, Alexeia. Real she hadn't heard from Alexeia in

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over a month and was worried thatsomething awful might have happened to her.
The friends said that while Margaret livedwith the family, she witnessed incidents of
physical abuse against Alexia and saw injurieson the little girl. During that time,
deputies visited the family's home in ElkGrove, where Barbara and Larry insisted
that Alexia had gone to live withher father, Charles, in Chicago.

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However, after making some disturbing discoveries, the deputies began to believe something was
wrong. Thirteen year old Jessica wassleeping in a dilapidated shed in the back
yard, which contained only a loungechair, a TV, and a bucket
for a toilet. They found nosign whatsoever that Alexia had ever lived in
the home. Even more disturbing wasthe fact that Alexia's face had been cut

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out of all the photos around thehouse. By that time, Barbara and
Larry had convinced Jessica that if shebreathed a word to anyone about what really
happened to her sister, they woulddo the same to her. Because she
lived in constant fear, Jessica tolddeputies the same story she'd been telling her
grandmother, that Alexia was with herdad in Chicago. Unconvinced that Alexia was

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safe with her father, the Sheriff'sdepartment began an investigation, calling in the
FBI's Child Abuse Unit and asking SpecialAgent Jeffrey Reineck to try to locate Charles
Chang in Chicago. When a localagent finally located Charles, the man said
he hadn't heard from his daughter sinceApril of that year and had no plans
for her to move from California toIllinois to live with him. Five days

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after the welfare check, thirteen yearold Jessica was sleeping in the shed when
in the middle of the night,Larry came in and poured bleach all over
his sleeping stepdaughter, snarling at her. Do you like this for anyone unaware?
Bleach is so corrosive that it canactually damage metal, so needless to
say, it can also cause burnsto human skin and other tissues. Bleach

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burns are considered chemical burns and cancause serious damage to the skin, including
significant pain, swelling, redness,blistering, and even more severe skin damage.
They can behave like sunburns, insome cases, appearing hours after contact
with bleach, especially if the chemicalisn't washed immediately off the skin. Bleach

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burns can be just as serious asheat burns. Jessica went to school that
day despite the bleached spots on herclothing and hair and the burns on her
skin. At the end of theday, she realized she couldn't go home
and told her math teacher, TammyCooper, what had happened to her.
Tammy immediately took action, taking photosof Jessica's bleach burns and refusing to leave

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Jessica's side while she was interviewed bypolice and examined at the hospital. Barbara
and Larry Carrasco were both arrested thatevening in her statement to police, Barbara
said she did not want Jessica andin fact wanted her daughter to die.
Jessica was placed into the County Children'sReceiving Home, which is basically a large
group home that's supposed to be atemporary placement for kids entering foster care.

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In mid October, FBI agents JeffreyReineck and Bill Nicholson visited the Receiving Home
to interview Jessica. They asked herabout her treatment at her mother and stepfather's
hands, and she told them thatLarry and Barbara were addicted to meth and
had come to believe that demons andvampires inhabited their house and both of Barbara's
daughters. They thought the only curefor this problem was bleach. When the

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agents asked, Jessica told them aboutLarry entering the shed in the middle of
the night and pouring bleach on her. She had been banished to the shed
because Barbara thought Jessica was a vampirewho was sucking electricity from the wall outlets
and was going to suck the lifeout of the baby Jesus, who Barbara
insisted she was pregnant with. Knowingthey had to address the topic. Before

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Jessica stopped talking, the agents askedher about her sister's disappearance. Jessica refused
to budge from the story that Alexiawas with her father in Chicago or possibly
in Hong Kong. Agent Reineck becamequite forceful with her and even played on
her emotions, asking her who shethought Alexia was calling out for when she
died. After talking about Alexia fora while, recounting the good times they

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had together while Barbara and Larry werehold up in their bedroom for hours at
a time, Jessica began crying sohard that social workers outside the room banged
on the door, demanding the agentsstop the interview. Eventually, Jessica got
up and walked out of the room. In early November, investigators put Jessica
through a polygraph test, which indicateddeception when she denied knowledge of Alexia's death.

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Knowing they knew the truth, thirteenyear old Jessica finally opened up,
telling investigators one of the most horrificstories they would ever hear. I'll pause
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fifty percent off. Thirteen year oldJessica Reale told the stunned FBI agents that

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near the beginning of the second weekof June of nineteen ninety seven, her
mother and stepfather came up with adiabolical plan to exercise the demons and vampires
they believed were inhabiting Jessica and fiveyear old Alexia. Barbara and Larry Carrasco's
grand plan was to force Jessica andAlexei to drink bleach milk shakes three times

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a day for eight days. WhenJessica refused the first concoction of bleach ice
cream and garlic, Larry punched herbetween the eyes with all of his strength
and then forced the milkshake down herthroat. Barbara and Larry said they were
also going to drink bleach milk shakes, but Jessica never saw them follow through
with that claim. Just fyi.According to the official Poison Control website,

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drinking small amounts of lower concentration householdbleach usually causes nausea, vomiting, and
abdominal pain. Drinking more concentrated bleachcan cause permanent damage to the gastro intestinal
system or even death. According toHealthline, bleach reacts with biological tissues and
can cause cell death. Any amountof bleach is toxic. Whether or not

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bleach can kill you depends on anumber of factors, including your size and
age, and how much you swallow. Drinking bleach can also cause damage to
the esophagus, respiratory problem, andskin and eye irritation. I bring that
up because during the course of thisso called treatment, Barbara and Larry also
held the girls down and used amedicine dropper to drop bleach into their eyes

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and ears. Getting bleach in theeye can cause pain, obviously, as
well as watery eyes and eyelid twitchingif the bleach isn't washed out immediately.
It only takes five to fifteen minutesof exposure to bleach for the eyes to
suffer irreversible damage. In addition,bleach can also damage the tissues inside the

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ear, including the ear canal andthe ear drum. After the first few
milkshakes, Jessica snuck Alexia into thebathroom, where they both threw up as
much of the milkshake as they could. After about three or four repetitions of
this, Barbara and Larry found outthat Jessica was helping Alexeia throw up,
so they separated the girls while theyforced them to drink the milkshakes. Jessica

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was locked in her room all dayother than the few minutes it took for
her to swallow each milkshake. Shewas forced out of her room on the
fifth day when Barbara called her outsideto the back yard, where she showed
Jessica a giant, red plastic bucketfilled with bleach water. This time,
the bleach wasn't for the girls.She instructed Jessica to go to the shed

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and retrieve one of their English bulldogs. At the time, Barbara was still
breeding the dogs and They had aboutten of them, all of which lived
in the shed where Jessica would eventuallybe forced to sleep and doused in bleach.
One by one, Barbara drowned everyone of the dogs, forcing Jessica
to collect each live dog and bringit to her. When they were all

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dead, Larry and Barbara buried thedogs in the back yard. On the
eighth day, which Jessica believed wasJune nineteenth, nineteen ninety seven, Jessica
and Alexeia sat at the table togetherdrinking their breakfast bleach shakes. Alexeia was
pale and listless and struggled to gether milkshake down, which enraged Barbara,
who dragged Alexia out of the roomby her hair. Later, when Larry

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and Barbara let Jessica out of herroom for her lunch time shake, Jessica
saw her little sister naked in thedry bathtub with a red enema bag next
to her. Jessica, who wasn'tallowed to enter the bathroom, saw Alexea's
chest rise and fall, so sheknew Alexia was still alive. When Larry
forced Jessica to sit at the kitchentable and drink her shake. When Jessica

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was almost finished. Barbara came outof the bathroom and laid Alexea down on
the hallway floor, calling for Larry. Jessica looked over to see Barbara kneeling
next to Alexea's pale, still unconsciousform. Barbara listened to Alexeia's chest and
attempted a rescue breath or two,but she never administered chest compressions, and
Jessica swears to this day that whenthey determined Alexia was dead, Barbara had

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an eerie smile on her face.Larry placed Alexeia into a black garbage bag,
and they stored her body in thechest freezer in the garage. They
apparently abandoned the bleached milkshake regiment afterAlexeia died. After a few days,
they escort at Jessica into the masterbedroom walking closet, where the floor was
covered with garbage bags. Larry brandisheda gun at Jessica, blocking the closet

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door and trapping her inside with themand another black trash bag, which she
knew contained her sister's body. Whenshe looked away from the bag, Larry
shouted at her to watch and heldthe gun to her head, threatening that
she'd be next if she didn't obey. Just as Jessica thought, inside the
bag was Alexeya's frozen body, curledup on her side in the fetal position.

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Larry handed the gun to Barbara,telling her that he would start,
but she would have to finish.Then he picked up the pruning saw,
placed it against Alexeya's frozen neck,and separated her head from her body in
the blink of an eye. Barbaraand Larry swapped implements, and Larry once
again held the gun, pointing itat Jessica the entire time. He told

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her over and over that if anyoneasked where Alexeia was, she was to
tell them her sister had gone tolive with her father in Chicago. All
the while, Barbara used the varioustools in the closet to continue dismembering her
own daughter's body. I'll quote fromJessica's book here, because there's no way
anything I could say could paint thishorrific picture more viscerly than Jessica's own words.

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Hours pass, the stench of thecloset getting worse each minute that goes
by. Her body is thawing andthe smell of death is oozing from her.
I want to be sick, butI say nothing. I watch like
I was told, good girls,listen. I want to rub my legs
clean. I want a shower.I sit still and say nothing as pieces

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of my sister's body, skin,muscle, and bone fly through the air
with the force of my mom's chopping. Bits of Alexia stick to my exposed
skin. Startled. When my momannounced she was done, I finally see.
Even though I was watching, Idid not truly see what happened to
my sister. Then, of course, another trash bag, this one full

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of Alexia in oatmeal like consistency.I say nothing. I sit and watch.
I wish for heaven too. Afterdismembering Alexia's body and reducing her to
minuscule pieces, Barbara and Larry allowedJessica to take a shower, during which
they used lighter fluid to light amassive fire in the fireplace. After Jessica's

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shower, Barbara beckoned for her tosit on the love seat with her until
Larry said he thought the fire washot enough. Dragging over the black trash
bag filled with Alexeia's remains, Larry, not even wearing gloves, started pulling
handfuls of the little girl out ofthe bag and tossing them into the fireplace,
keeping the fire hot for hours whilethey burned Alexia's remains a handful at

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a time. One of the mostpowerful lines in Jessica's book came from this
section, where she wrote, theflames are magnificent, my sister's final goodbye.
Her soul is sent via the smoketo the heavens. Later that night,
Barbara and Larry woke Jessica and loadedher into Barbara's white bronco. They
brought along a small red cooler thatLarry had used to carry his lunch to

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work. Inside were all of theashes from the fireplace. They stopped at
a spot in the middle of nowherealongside the Sacramento River, where they dumped
Alexeia's ashes into the water. Theyalso tossed in all of the tools they
used to take Alexia apart, beforereturning to the truck, where they found
that Barbara had locked the keys inside. Rather than call a locksmith, of

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course, Larry broke the back windowof the truck with a rock, leaving
glass all over the ground. Thatglass was used in the investigation to verify
Jessica's story because despite several search warrants, investigators never found a single molecule of
evidence of Alexia in the Elk Grovehouse. Somehow, Barbara and Larry were

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able to all but erase Alexeia's existencefrom the face of the earth. There
were no clothes, toys, orund damaged photographs of Alexia in the house
whatsoever, let alone traces of herDNA. They peeled the wallpaper and the
paint, and even dismantled the entirefireplace brick by brick, but everything had
been so thoroughly washed down with bleachthat not a speck of evidence remained.

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The master bedroom carpet had been replaced, and the carrascos had laid fresh linoleum
inside the walking closet where Jessica watchedher sister be cut into pieces. Investigators
had been so desperate to find anytrace of Alexia that they had even disinterred
the family's dogs from the backyard,checking the animal's stomachs for any sign of
Alexia's remains, they found nothing.Agents Reineck and Nicholson were later able to

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find a neighbor who remembered a strangesmell around the time Jessica thought her sister's
remains were burnt in the fireplace.The neighbor also remembered seeing black smoke pouring
from the Carrasco's chimney, which wasunusual in the middle of the Sacramento Valley
summer. The reason Jessica refused totell the truth even after she was removed
from Barbara and Larry's home, wasbecause she was afraid of the effect this

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horrible news would have on her grandmother. By this time, Margaret Real was
in poor health, suffering from heartproblems. Margaret recalled during interviews with the
FBI agents and during her later trialtestimony that Barbara had always hated Alexia,
and that she and Larry frequently calledAlexeia names, such as that ugly Chinese

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bitch. Agent Reineck later wrote abook called In the Name of the Children,
An FBI Agent's relentless pursuit of theNation's worst predators, in which he
told the stories of several children whosecases he had worked over the years.
Chapter five was about Jessica and Alexeia'scase. In that chapter, Agent Reineck
wrote, the thought of parents devisingtheir own Auschwitz style crematorium made me apoplectic.

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I did not want to believe anyonecould be capable of doing what Barbara
and Larry had done to their children. But Jessica had lived it, and
the unvanquished love she felt for hersister had given her the strength to survive
and bear witness Bill and I werenow obligated to be her witnesses and do
everything we could to put her parentswhere they could never hurt her or any
other child again. Despite the lackof physical evidence, Sacramento County Assistant Chief

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Deputy District Attorney Marv Stern decided tocharge Larry and Barbara Carrasco with the murder
of five year old Alexeia Real.Both were still in jail on eleven counts
of child abuse regarding Jessica, andwhen FBI special agents Rheineck and Nicholson served
Barbara with her murder charge, sheimmediately began pointing the finger of guilt at
Larry. They considered this her acknowledgmentthat the crime had indeed occurred. Barbara

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and Larry each came up with storiesof how the other was to blame.
Barbara told her bail bondsman that Larrytied Alexeia to a chair and drowned her
before cutting her into pieces, burningher body in the fireplace, and dumping
the ashes and the tools he usedto dismember Alexey into the Sacramento River.
At one point, Barbara even triedto implicate thirteen year old Jessica in her

(29:06):
own sister's murder. Larry too triedto blame Barbara for Alexeia's death, telling
his cell mate that his wife smotheredAlexeia during an exorcism, then dismembered and
burned Alexeia's body and threw her ashesin the river. Both of the Carrasco's
faced charges relating to Alexeia's murder andJessica's assault and torture. Prosecutor Stern was

(29:27):
tasked with prosecuting a no body homicide, which can be a huge challenge,
especially when there is next to nophysical evidence whatsoever. In June of nineteen
ninety nine, Superior Court Judge JamesL. Long ruled that even though Alexeia's
remains were never found, there wassufficient evidence to try Barbara and Larry Carrasco

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for her murder. Larry pleaded notguilty, choosing to go to trial.
His defense was basically that the devilmade him do it. He said he
did not intend to harm his stepdaughters, instead wanting to rid them of the
demons that plagued them. At Larry'strial, pathologist doctor Robert Anthony testified about

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the effect drinking bleach would have ona person. He said the corrosive chemical
would cause hemorrhaging in the esophagus andstomach. Because bleach fumes are chemical irritants,
they would cause the lungs to fillwith fluid, which could cause heart
failure. Bleach in the bloodstream couldalso cause failure of the liver, kidneys,
and lungs, and it could raisethe levels of sodium and chloride in

(30:29):
the body dangerously high. Finally,bleach would upset the acid base balance in
the blood, which would cause thecentral nervous system to shut down. Any
or all of these effects could causedeath, depending on the size of the
person and the amount of bleach ingested. The jury didn't buy Larry's defense,
and on February eighteenth, two thousand, Larry Carrasco was found guilty of second

(30:52):
degree murder with malice a forethought andassault resulting in the death of a child
under eight, both relating to Alexeia'sregarding Jessica. Larry was found guilty of
torture, infliction of cruel or inhumancorporal punishment on a child, and nine
counts of child abuse. Larry receiveda cumulative sentence of forty years to life

(31:12):
in the California State prison system.Larry had the gall to appeal his torture
conviction, saying he was not asadist and did not derive pleasure from harming
Jessica. The Court of Appeals affirmedhis conviction, citing his own words to
Jessica when he dumped bleach on herin the shed, do you like this?
For her part, Barbara initially pleadednot guilty, claiming insanity. However,

(31:37):
she was found to be saying bystate evaluators. In two thousand,
the court allowed her to plead guiltyto second degree murder, dismissing all of
the other charges against her, andsentenced her to fifteen years to life in
prison. The judge negated Barbara's claimsof insanity, citing her long standing hatred
for Alexia and her many attempts togive the little girl away to friends and

(31:59):
even strangers, which they learned aboutduring witness testimony. In his ruling,
the judge also refuted Barbara's attempts tolay the majority of the blame on her
husband, saying I am more persuadedby the less biased testimony of her surviving
daughter, Jessica than I am thedefendant's rendition of her stories of dismemberment and
the cover up which followed. Ifind that her role was much more than

(32:21):
the defendant has chosen to convey tothis court. She was a leader,
an act of participant throughout the CaliforniaCourt of Appeal affirmed the Court's decision.
Sixty year old Barbara Carrasco, CaliforniaDepartment of Corrections and Rehabilitation Inmate W eight
five six one one is currently servingher sentence in the Central California Women's Facility

(32:43):
in Chowchilla. She may be rubbingelbows with a few younger ladies of discussed
in past episodes. One of theseis Chelsea Maynard, who pleaded guilty in
twenty twenty two to manslaughter in thedeath of her stepson, Jackson Love,
whose story I told in episodes nine, eight and ninety nine. Another is
thirty one year old Brasida Sarran,who pleaded guilty in twenty twenty two to

(33:07):
voluntary manslaughter, child abuse, andmutilating human remains for the deaths of her
children, four month old Divina Saranand two year old Thaddeus, whose story
I told in episode one twenty eight. Yet another is twenty nine year old
Bianca Stanch who was convicted in twentytwenty of the twenty twelve murder of her
boyfriend's daughter, four year old SamayaDowning, whose story I told in episodes

(33:29):
fifty six and fifty seven. Barbarahas been denied parole five times, the
first in two thousand nine and themost recent in December of twenty twenty two,
at which time she was denied parolefor another three years, although she
can request a hearing sooner depending onher behavior in prison. Seventy five year
old Larry Carrasco CDCR inmate P seventwo five six one, is serving his

(33:53):
sentence in Mule Creek State Prison inIone, California. His first parole sued
ability hearing is tentatively scheduled to takeplace on November one, twenty twenty three.
Sadly, the girl's grannie, MargaretReal, passed away in October of
two thousand. Jessica grew up infoster care. Earlier this year, Jessica

(34:15):
released a book detailing her experiences,including witnessing her sister's murder and growing up
in a broken foster care system.I can't recommend this book highly enough,
and I'll include a link in theshow notes. The book is called I'm
Not Broken Surviving the House of Demons, and I couldn't put it down.

(34:36):
It's almost like a journal detailing Jessica'sexperiences throughout her life. It was my
honor to have a conversation with JessicaReal this past weekend. She is the
embodiment of the word survivor. You'llhear that conversation after this sponsor break.

(35:01):
Today, I'm talking with Jessica Reale, and I do have a lot of
questions for you, but I'm goingto wait and let you introduce yourself and
then we'll go from there. Well, a little about me is that I
am currently thirty nine years old andspoiler alert, I have a wonderful life
now finally, great, great husband, three beautiful daughters, you know,
home business, all of that funstuff. But it didn't start out that

(35:23):
way. Initially. My mother andmother never really wanted children, but surprise,
here I came. And then shedecided, I guess to keep me,
to try to keep the man,which did not work, and then
she went through tons of different boyfriends. We lived multiple different homes and multiple
different states following the next new jobor next new man. And my grandmother

(35:45):
came along for all of that,and she was on who basically raised me.
When I was seven ish, shegot married, I had more kids
to Alexeiya's father. She ended uphaving three children with him, Chad,
Alexeia, and then Michael. Ithought, okay, good, she's married.
We're going to have a family now, like a real live family and

(36:06):
Lama dad and all that stuff didn'treally work out. My mom just dropped
her children off with my grandmother andshe lived her life away from us.
Eventually, that marriage did not workout, and then we moved again a
few more times, this time withthree more kids, whashly two because she
gave up my youngest brother, Michael, for adoption when he was only probably

(36:27):
six weeks old. So it wasjust the three of us and my grandmother
raising us. And then she metanother man got married without even telling us.
Really, she just came home oneday and in my sixth grade school
year, and said, I gotmarried and we're meeting in with him,
and we did, and things wereokay for a little while. My grandmother
moved in with us and it wasme and Chad and Alexeia there, and

(36:50):
eventually all things went to hell.My mother's drug use became an actually visibly
a parent. I mean, Iguess she was an alcohol again, a
drug user for many many years,but she was better at hiding it,
or maybe because we weren't around heras much, nobody noticed. Put us
all living together, she couldn't hideit anymore, and things got bad,
and my grandmother got upset about itbecause of how she was treating the children

(37:12):
and made threats. And then eventuallymy mother sent my first brother, Chad,
to live in Pennsylvania with the sameman who adopted my youngest brother,
and that happened after I completed sixthgrade, so then it was just the
girls. Mom's abuse became more verbal, were more physical, and then she
kicked my grandmother out because my grandmotherthreatened to call the cops and get the

(37:35):
kids taken from her, so theythrew her out and wouldn't allow her to
have any contact with us anymore,and eventually things just got really bad.
The drugs got bad. This isnow the end of my seventh grade year.
During the summer, we weren't beat, we were starved, were neglected,
anything you want to say happened,and eventually they started believing in vampires

(37:57):
and demons, and my mother thoughtshe was goaden. She was pregnant with
Jesus and we were trying to killher baby, and the only way to
rid us of our demons was tomake us drink bleach milk shakes three times
a day for eight days, alongwith other different types of torture. We
were doing that for the first coupleof days. I was able to help
Alexis grow up, but once theycaught onto me doing that, they separated

(38:21):
us and wouldn't allow us to betogether anymore. So I was thirteen and
a little overweight, so the sizeof an adult, and my sister was
only five and tiny, able toforty pound. But she was getting the
same abuse and the same amount ofbleach to drink as me, and it
just took a toll on her littlebody. And eventually the last dose that
she received was in the pattern thebathtub because she was refusing to drink it,

(38:45):
so apparently they had used an enemabag to shove it down her throat
to make her drink it. Thenshe became unresponsive, and my mother took
her out of the bathtub, andlater on the hallway floor looked at her,
gave her one bath into her mouthto attempt CPR, I guess,
and then did nothing else and actuallysmiled over her lifeless body in the hallway

(39:07):
floor. After that happened, Larrywas more freaked out, I think,
because he didn't want to go tojail, but Barbara just seemed okay with
it all. The smile on herface must be something you can never forget.
Yeah, And it's funny though,because she was a smoker, and
she used to always take her lightersand put him in her mouth, the
back end in her mouth and justlike always like be chewing on the end

(39:30):
of the lighter, and then that'show she would smile with like it's always
in her mouth and it just thatand the snow menthal cigarettes springs me right
back to that moment, because Ican clearly see her with that lighter in
the side of her mouth half grin, just looking at my sister's lifeless body,
Like I don't know what she wasthinking, Like maybe she thought she
really did rid the demon. Idon't know. But do you think Barbara

(39:52):
was a narcissist? Oh? Iknow she is now that I brung up
and done therapy. Oh yeah,she's a classic narcissist. I mean even
still to this day when we dobecause she's been up for parole probably four
or five times, and it's stillnever ever her fault. She can't take
full responsibility, Like each time sheblames it on somebody else. One time

(40:13):
it was my brother who told herto do it. One time it was
how she'd been raised by her motherand the abuse she suffered as a child.
I mean, it's always something shejust can't come out and say,
like as a dry to g addict, and I did this because of that,
Like in her eyes, I don'tthink she really thinks she did anything
wrong. That's amazing. Do youthink she actually was abused as a child.

(40:34):
I don't know, see, Andthat's not where it's not fair because
she can say all this stuff andthere's nobody here to back her up or
deny it. I do know mygrandmother's second husband was abusive towards her and
that's why they left. There waslike some domestic violence situation, but I
don't know if that extended to Barbara. Maybe she witnessed it, but I

(40:54):
don't know if the abuse actually extendedto her. But growing up, Barbara
was very, very spoiled because mygrandmother had my uncle Richard with her first
husband and they ended up divorcing,and then she met her second husband and
they had like I think eight ornine miscarriages over the years, and then
finally got pregnant with Barbara and whowas able to have her and it was

(41:15):
like a fourteen year age difference betweenthe two of them, and she was
spoiled rotten because my grandmother wanted thatbaby so bad. Of course, so
Barbara's idea of abuse might be somethingtotally different. It might just because she
didn't get to go out on aSaturday night. It's like, right,
I don't know. Yeah, Ican't fault your grandmother for that, especially
after hearing about eight or nine miscarriages. My god, yeah, and I

(41:37):
get that too, But then Ithink she created a monster right now,
because when you never have to workfor I think in her life and everything
is handed to you. When thingsgo to hell and it doesn't work that
way anymore, how do you cope? Yeah, Yeah, that's the hard
part. What do you remember aboutyour granny? I know she meant a
whole lot to you. Yeah,she was basically my mother. I mean,
honestly, for the first couple ofyears of my life, I did

(41:58):
call her mom because my mom andaround she, I think is the reason
why I am is put together andas solid as I am now, because
I had that first six and ahalf seven years with her just basically alone,
and she is still into me.You know, how to be a
good person and responsible, and Iknew love and all of those things that,
unfortunately my sister never got to reallyexperience. My grandmother tried, but

(42:22):
at this point Barbara was so inand out of our lives, and my
grandmother was just trying to figure outhow to make the welfare and the food
stamps take care of us all becausemy mom would not supply anything. It
was very stressful on her. Sothings were different when she was helping to
raise my younger siblings. Yeah,no doubt. Chad was about five when
your mom sent him off to livewith Michael and his dad. Yeah,

(42:44):
he was my next born siblings.There's seven years between us. He was
five when he was set there tolive with Michael, and Michael at that
time was probably three, So they'vespent most of their life together, which
is good for them. Good.Okay, it's kind of unfath to me
to think about sending away a fiveyear old, But it sounds like your
mom never truly wanted kids at all, which she had said at the beginning

(43:07):
that she told you. Yeah,I mean I didn't know she never wanted
kids at all, Like, Imean, I have that feeling obviously.
But at our last hearing back inDecember of last year, for her Pearl
hearing, she actually finally admitted thatshe never wanted any of us and she
never loved any of us. Wow, to admit that at your Pearl hearing,
Yeah, yeah, that's what sheadmitted. Yeah, I mean,

(43:29):
it was good closure for me.I actually thanked her for telling me because
maybe feel a little less crazy.So I guess it's got one thing from
her that I needed. I mean, I'll never get the love and all
of the stuff that I needed,and that's what I've worked on and trauma
therapy lately is trying to let goof what my inner child wants because I'm
never going to get it. Butat least I got her to admitmit that
she never really did want anything todo with us. It's amazing that you

(43:51):
have made so much of yourself.We'll definitely get into all that, because
everything you've accomplished is incredible and admirable. So I do want to get into
all that and talk a little bitabout, you know, the EMDR and
how that's helped you and stuff.But rather than skip ahead, you basically
just saw your mom smiling over yourlittle sister's body, which had to have
been one of the most traumatizing momentsof your life up till then, and

(44:15):
then you had to go through worse. Yeah. I mean, you don't
think it gets worse, but itdoes get worse. Like I was freaking
out because I was like, areyou sure she's really dead? Like can't
we call an ambulance? Like howyou know you're not a doctor? Like?
And I knew I was speaking outof turn and I was probably going
to get my ass beat for it, but luckily I really didn't write after
that. I guess they were justtoo consumed with trying to figure out what

(44:36):
to do with a body that theydidn't really think about my outburst too much.
So they decided to put her ina black trash bag and put her
in our freezer in the garage untilthey determined what to do with her body.
So my biggest regret and biggest thingis like, what if she could
have been saved, maybe just fellinto coma, maybe she you know,
who knows, anything could have happened, if they could have called, you

(44:59):
know, my of a response,but they chose not to. I'm sure
you still experience a lot of survivorsguilt at all, But I hope you
don't blame yourself for that because youwere under their still I did did for
a very long time. I mean, like em DR really good help with
that. But I still have momentsobviously because I always think, well,
what if I made a different choice, or if I tried to do something.
But going back into those moments andreliving them, there was nothing that

(45:22):
I could have done that would haveended in anything but me being in the
same spot as her. Did theyopenly threaten that to you? Oh yeah,
oh yes, even during like theabuse time, when she took me
outside and finally let me outside oneday after Alessia was still in the freezer.
She was drowning each one of ourdogs in a bucket of bleach water

(45:45):
and telling me that this could happento me if I don't act right and
do what I'm told. I mean, she made very clear that she had
no problem doing it again. There'sprobably a little bit more of the narcissism
going on there for her to beable to drown ten dogs in front of
you, cold blooded like that.It's terrifying to think about a person out
there who's capable of this sort ofthing. For you to have lived through

(46:07):
it and to know that that persongave birth to you, it must have
sat with you for a long time. And I'm glad that you have a
therapist who can help you and asupport system at this point, because I
can't imagine having to live with thatknowledge and having seen what you've seen.
Yeah, my biggest thing was Ididn't really get therapy until about a year
ago. And that's only because everytime I started, I got short tempered,

(46:30):
and I started like when my kidswould act up and I'd start yelling
and losing my cool, and I'dsound just like Barbara. In my head,
it was like, holy crap,I'm talking like her. I'm doing
the things I swore I would neverdo, saying the things I swore I
never say, and I was like, I can't do that to my children.
So that's what really put me intotherapy, not trying to relive the

(46:51):
trauma and heal myself from the survivor'sguilt, which I did and it was
a bonus, was because I reallyneed to figure out how to control that
whatever triggers I was having to bethe best parent I could be. So
it's going to be working progress,obviously, but at least now I know
how to walk away from a fifteenyear old when she's pushing my buttons,
because we all know that's their lotin life at fifteen. Absolutely it's hard

(47:14):
for me to put that in perspectivebecause I didn't get to be a normal
fifteen year old and lose my pooland yell at my mom and say I
hate you and I wish you'd diewithout life being thrown into a wall.
Or at that time, I wasin foster care, so if I wasn't
a perfect child, i'd get movedso her being able to speak her mind
and do what she wants. I'mglad because I know I'm doing something right

(47:34):
because she's safe enough to do that, But I also don't know how to
process and deal with it. Sotherapy is helped with that. That's awesome
that you recognize that and took thatstep rather than letting the cycle continue.
So where were we We were talkingabout, As you said, when you
wouldn't think you could get worse,it did? It did. Yeah.
One day she brought me out ofmy room because of course I was locked

(47:57):
in there from time to time.If I was good before, I wouldn't
be lock if it was not good. It depended on our mood really,
And then she brought me into themaster bedroom closet and Larry was there and
he had a gun, and Ithought, oh great, now I'm next.
But really it was more of ahere's what's going to happen if you
tell anybody what happened to your sister. So I watched as they dismembered my

(48:21):
sister and the master bedroom closets forhours, while they repeated to me over
and over again that if anybody asks, Alexia is living with her father in
Chicago, and I wasn't going togo against that because the man had a
gun and we're sitting there and I'mwatching my sister be literally turned into a
pile of goo. And then afterthat, I was allowed to go take

(48:42):
a shower and brought back out afterthe shower and watched as they burned her
remains in our family fireplace until therewas absolutely nothing left. It's just terrific.
It's beyond anything that any child ofany age should have to see.
And then, yeah, that youhave that memory, it is so awful.
I'm so sorry that they made yougo through that. I mean,
it was very effective to make them, you know, I mean I for

(49:05):
a long time I went with thatstory that they told me to tell everybody
because I had visions of what wouldhappen to me if I didn't. I
mean it really it took me beingquoke up to a live detector test by
a detective for me to actually tellwhat happened. And then a couple of
them actually didn't want to believe me. The couple of the detective thought I
was like, they were looking atme like this girl's nuts, you'd hope,

(49:27):
which I guess. I mean,it does sound that's but then a
couple of debjectives like, there's noway a kid would just make up that
type of a story, so therehas to be some truth behind it.
And eventually the FBI did like goout and like search the home, and
they took apart the fireplace to tryto find any DNA of my sister,
And unfortunately, Barbara and Larry wereso good at removing Alexia from this earth

(49:51):
that there was not a single pieceof DNA in that house to prove she
even existed, which I didn't learnuntil until like about a year ago.
I learned that when I got backin contact with the FBI agent who worked
on the case, and he goes, they sent every brick up that fireplace
to the lab and they couldn't finda thing. They illuminal everything. They
took the wallpaper out, they tooksheet rock out, They found nothing to

(50:15):
indicate a child ever lived there.Like, how can you do that?
Have your defense, but you wereon drugs in me and you were mentally
unwell, because Barbara tried to pullthat. You can't be mentally and well
and wipe somebody from the earth socompletely, Like it doesn't work that way.
I mean, maybe now all theseyears later, with how the advancements
in like technology, maybe they couldhave found something. But back in you

(50:37):
know, in ninety seven ninety eight, with what they had, they didn't
find the thing. I know whathappened. I just want them to stay
locked up until they die. Mygrandmother called and did some anonymous like welfare
checks, and they came out andthey spoke to me, But unfortunately they
never took me away from Barbara andLarry, so I didn't have an opportunity

(50:57):
to tell the truth even if Iwanted to, because honestly, I wasn't
going to go against it with themstanding right there. But I honestly don't
think I would have told the trutheither if they got me alone, you
know, because back then I wasso programmed that I was terrified to step
out of line. So I don'tknow if it would have made a difference
if they separated us, but theydidn't, so I just said, everything's
fine. My sisters in Chicago withher father, And that's what started the

(51:20):
FBI in it a bit because becauseafter I went to school with the bleach
burns on me from when they pouredbeach on me in the middle of the
night, and I finally told mylast carried teacher, I was too scared
to go home. The cops werefinally involved, and they asked about my
sister, so I gave him thesame story that you know, she's in
Chicago with her father. And becauseI said that, that triggered the FBI

(51:42):
because now it was considered out ofstate. So if I wouldn't have said
if I would have just said,oh, I don't know where she's at,
or she's in California with so andso, it wouldn't have triggered an
FBI response. But once the stateboarders were technically crossed, they had to
get involved. So then after thatis when you had the interviews with the
FBI And was it special agent.Yes, that was one of them.

(52:02):
I can't remember the other guy's name, but I do remember him because he
was the more aggressive one and hemade me cry. He was so mean
to me. But I did itnow as an adult, I was like,
I get the tactic like he was. He was awful. He was
throwing out things like I know youknow what happened to your sister, and
who do you think she was callingfor when she was being her, you

(52:22):
were like her mother, like thiswhole tactic. I was pissed. I
didn't tell him anything. I justI eventually walked out and I was like,
you know, I don't give arat's ass. I'm leaving. So
I don't know how far he gotwith that, but he did. He
was the only one to actually breakme down and make me cry, which
it was a good tactic. Didn'twork, but it was good to try.
I guess, you know, alittle stronger than some of those,

(52:44):
you know, adult criminals that hedid that too, Yeah, you would
be at this point. But eventuallythey did put me to a light detective
chest because obviously nobody believed me.After they contacted Charles, which is Alexeia's
father, and he's like, Ihaven't seen her in years or talked to
her, like she's not with me. So they get to the light detector
tests and obviously I was lying,and back then, being thirteen fourteen years

(53:06):
old, I thought I was goingto get in trouble because you know,
this light detector test proved that Iwas lying. So I finally spilled the
beans and that's when you know,the FBI finally gotten a rest warrant for
the whole murder part of it all, and they didn't really have any physical
evidence. They just had my word. But when the FBI agent went into
the jail to serve Barbara and Larrywith the new warrant for a rest,

(53:29):
they immediately gave the same story Idid, but blamed it on each other.
So it kind of confirmed what Isaid and that Alexia was really not
alive, because here they are sayingthe same exact thing. But how does
it feel to know that Alexi isstill classified as a missing person? Is
that beyond frustrating? Yeah? AndI tried to get her taken off some
of those websites, but they won'ttake her off because of the fact they're

(53:52):
like, if we find any DNAof like a body somewhere along the line,
that we have a case to linkit to and database. So I've
kind of let it go because Iknow they're never going to find anything.
And everybody used to tell me,oh, there's no way you can burn
a body in a family fireplace,it doesn't get hot enough. I'm like,
yeah, you can. If youmake her pieces small enough, you

(54:14):
can burn anything in there. Ofcourse, they're not going to find anything
they're not known. And they diddrag the Sacramento River because that's where her
ashes were thrown and the tools,but by the time I finally told them,
it was a few months later,and if anything was there, it
was washed away. I thought itwas very cool that they used the broken
glass and the parking lot to backup your story. Yeah, that was

(54:35):
really the only thing that proved thatwhat I said happened happened. Was fascinating.
Yeah, they did everything they couldto put Larry and Barbara behind bars,
which is admirable as far as I'mconcerned. You know, they weren't
messing around and they didn't want tolet them get away with it. So
I'm glad at least that the prosecutorpushed and he stayed in contact with you

(54:55):
throughout the process. I saw hedid. Yeah, Mark st You know,
he was great, Like I actuallyreally liked him. Out of all
the people that had interrogated me andeverything. I liked him because he didn't
speak to me like I was akid like most of them were, and
him just showing the mutual respect.I was very comfortable with speaking with him,
and I knew that he would dothe best that he could to make

(55:15):
sure I never had to go backto him ever again. Good and after
the murder trial, I can't evenimagine that they if they had been acquitted
somehow, that they would have sentyou back. But who knows. I
mean, revocation is such a bigthing, it is anything of them.
But at that point I probably wouldhave ran away because I bet at him.
I was like fifteen when they wentto trial anyway, so I don't
If by some chance they got out, I probably would have booked it somewhere.

(55:37):
Yeah, I imagine you do seemto have a sense of self preservation,
which is wonderful, and that's alsoprobably a good reason that you didn't
go down the same path as yourfriends. That you stayed strong and got
yourself an education and built your ownbusiness from the ground up and all these
other amazing things that you've done.Yeah, for the longest time, I

(55:58):
did it because I wanted to spiteBarbara, as she used to make me
feel like nothing. Told me,oh, you'll be pregnant in high school,
you'll never graduate, all of thesethings, you'll be in nothing.
So every time I accomplished one ofthese goals, even though I never told
her, because I didn't talk toher. I still felt like it was
a big f you to her,and then I kind of like felt guilty
about that later on. Yeah,I achieved all these things and I'm technically

(56:19):
successful, but I tend them justto irk somebody I didn't fully enjoy or
respect the fact that even though yeah, that was my motivation behind it,
I still get it, like it'sstill my success. So that was something
I worked on in therapy too,like, no matter the reason I did
it, I still did it andI still should be proud of myself for
it. Yes, it's still ahuge, huge accomplishment, actually a series

(56:43):
of huge accomplishments. So that isamazing. And you know what, I
guess that's one thing Barbara can becredited with is giving you the fire that
you needed to live the life thatyou're living. I guess. I mean,
I always think about who I couldhave been if I had like better
parents, but I don't know.I think the only thing I actually whatever
change is the fact that Alexei haddied. I think I still want to
have lived through all of the sameabuse and everything else because it did make

(57:07):
me who I am, and Iknow I can survive anything. And make
it work. Like my house wasto burn down the morrow, I wouldn't
ye be upset, but I knowI'd figure a way out to out of
it. So in that way,I you know, I'm glad for the
things I lived through. I justwish Alexeia could be here too. I'll
pause here for one last sponsor break. I'm sure you're teaching your daughters a

(57:37):
lot of resilience, even if youaren't doing it on purpose. They've seen
it through you. Yeah, andI kind of do it on purpose.
Like a lot of people I've talkedto who are my age, they don't
raise their children the way I do. And my kids are like, especially
the oldest one. I made herget a job. She's like, why
don't have to work? I'm fifteen? Like you should be buying me all
of this and taking care of me. Yea, I'm waiting now. I
don't have to do a day thingbut feed you and clothing and make sure

(57:59):
you're saying, but there's no lawthat says you need a hundred dollars shoes.
Like, So she's working, andshe's like going to school and she's
really smart. She's an honor studentand she's incredibly smart and talented, but
she has this mentality that things shouldbe catered to her. And I don't
raise my children that way. Allmy kids have chores, even my six

(58:20):
year old. She clears the tableand cleans the downstairs bathroom every Saturday.
Like, we all work together asa family to make this household work.
And you know, everybody's like,my kids are like, are you going
to get us allowance? I'm like, do I feed you and clothe you?
Well, yeah, then you don'tget allowance. Like no, if
they do something extra like outside inthe yard or cool weeds or yeah,
I'll pay it for that. Butnormal every day stuff where we are all

(58:43):
just a family working together. Nowit doesn't work that way. And we
have dinner together every night and Idon't let them have their phones at the
table, and they're like, well, why it's so unfair. I'm like,
it's the only time I don't letyou have your phones, Like,
give me thirty five minutes at dinnertable where I can actually speak to you.
So I mean, I do thingsa little differently, a little more
old school, like my grandma taughtme. But I liked that. I
think kids need that kind of responsibilityand accountability When you were younger, did

(59:07):
you notice that your mom always treatedAlexeia differently or did that sort of start
when Larry came along? Or whenwas that a thing? It was always
a thing. I mean, evenas far as when she was a little
baby in a high chair, shewould like torture her and like hold a
lighter underneath her feet until she cried. She threatened to get rid of her
multiple times. We bought a horse, so we went to a horse farm

(59:30):
to buy a horse, and there'sthis woman who owned the horse farm and
her he has really wanted children forsome reason, couldn't have it, and
she was like, oh, youcan have Alexeia. Like I so wish
she would have given her up foradoption to that woman because she would have
had a wonderful life. But itwas always a different manipulation tactic, and
I think she liked seeing people suffer. So she got this woman thinking she

(59:52):
was gonna get this eight month oldbaby and have her dream come true.
And then my mom just tears itaway. And when I was young,
I was only like probably nine then, so I knew it was wrong,
but I didn't understand how and whyit is wrong. It just didn't seem
right to hurt a baby. ButI didn't say anything about it because I
wasn't going to be next. Yeah, you have to learn survival skills,

(01:00:12):
and a lot of kids even joinin on the abuse or treat it as
if it's totally normal. That's natural. You're going to adapt to it for
sure, exactly, which is hardto process as an adult. And I
think that's why a lot of peoplefall into the traps if the drugs,
if they were abused as children,is because they can't process what they lived
through and what they had to doto survive. Yeah, that's like an
extreme version of survivor's guilt or awhole different type of guilt altogether. But

(01:00:37):
yeah, that's what happens even whenyou're an abusive marriage, but when you're
being abused by your own biological parent, this is your life. You can't
go outside of that. You're achild. Even at age thirteen, you
were a child. You couldn't gooutside of that and defy your mother and
risk exactly what you had seen happeningto you, you know. Yeah,
do you plan to attend all ofthe future parole hearings? Yes, because

(01:01:00):
if I don't they'll let her outbecause she's technically a model prisoner, and
really the only reason she's been deniedthe last couple of times is because she
doesn't show any remorse and doesn't takefull responsibility for her actions. But if
I'm not there to call her outon whatever new lie she comes out with,
who knows if they would still viewit that way, you know,

(01:01:21):
because she'd be the only one therespeaking. She's sixty something. Larry's I
think seventy four or seventy five,and he's coming up on November first for
parole, so we'll see how thatgoes. And he waved his right to
a hearing the last time he didwhen he was initially up. He waved
it for a year. I don'tknow why, because when we finally did
attempt to do one last in May, and I logged into the zoom and

(01:01:44):
he was there and the board wasthere, that they decided to postpone it
because he had had double herknee operationlike three or four days before, because
they don't tell them when they're goingto have surgery because obviously they could try
to escape if they knew. Sohe was so drunk up that they decided
that he wouldn't be able to answerquestions being as high as a kite on

(01:02:05):
pain meds, so they did theschedule. It so always coming up on
now in November. What was itlike seeing his face for the first time
in all those years? It reallywasn't his face. It was his voice
that got me, which is youknow, the same with Barbara, like
her the voice. But I kindof liked seeing him because this sounds awful
and I felt bad about it fora while, but he's so beat down

(01:02:28):
and decrepid and old and has hearingaids and has a walker, and like,
he just looks horrible, and itjust made me feel good. That's
understandable. I can't follow you forthat well, I want to be that
person, but I'm just like,he's suffering physically, and I'm like,
good, I think you have aright to kind of enjoy that a little

(01:02:49):
bit. And is Barbara in poorhealth or is she otherwise? I know
she's with it mentally, she's withit mentally, she's actually in fine health.
I mean I think she was playingup the ailment to try to get
out earlier, like she has awalker and a stability vest. Because I
guess she has balanced issues. Idon't know if that's a real thing or
if that's just something they were doingfor show. I guess he's not.

(01:03:12):
I guess he's retired. Special AgentNick was at the at the last hearing
on your behalf as well. Yes, and he says he's going to join
for Larry too, So that's good. I'm sure it must be great to
have his support now, and afteryou reached out to him and he has
said he's been looking for you fortwenty five years. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean he could have found meobviously. I mean, he really could
have dug into databases and found meif he wanted to, but he chose

(01:03:36):
not to, just because you know, I didn't want to like invade my
privas here or whatever. But Iwas really grateful for him for putting her
in his book, you know,because people will remember remember her. And
then I learned so much that Ididn't know about the investigation after speaking to
him, because I wasn't privy tothat any information as a as a teenager
and then as an adult. Ididn't really want to relive it, but

(01:03:58):
just knowing what they did and howhard they worked to fight for justice,
for Alexia. It just made mefeel really good. It was fascinating hearing
you and Marv and mister Renick.What was it called the Inside the Crime
Files podcast? Oh? Yeah,well Anne Marie, she's a former DA.
Yeah, that was a good podcast. Yeah, that was fascinating.
I thought it was great that shehad all three of you on there and

(01:04:20):
had your different perspectives. That wasgreat. It was I liked learning that
because I didn't, like I said, I wasn't a tribute to that as
a teenager, they don't give youall the ins and the outs. But
it made me feel so much betterknowing how hard they had to work to
actually prove a nobody murder and todo that, to fight so hard was
very humbling, and it just mademe feel really good. And I'm sure

(01:04:42):
the defense tried to discredit you becauseof the fact that you told the Chicago
story at the beginning, which ofcourse you did. That attorney was horrible.
He was just awful. He lookedlike the scientists from Back to the
Future, the hair, the wholebit, and you was just mean and
he tried anything to twist my wordsaround and make it seem like I didn't

(01:05:03):
know what I was talking about andit was horrible, but I knew I
had to do it because if Ididn't do it, they would let Larry
out, Like because Barbara already committedto a plea deal, She's like okay,
like, yeah, I did this, this and this, and then
they just they're fine. But Larryswore up and down he had nothing to
do with it. So I knewI had to go through it, and

(01:05:24):
I'm glad I did, and I'mstronger for it. But but I mean,
that's his job too, So Iget it as an adult now,
but back then, there was otherways he could asked the same questions without
being so harsh, Like it wasn'treally necessary. I don't, I don't
think, but it didn't work inthe end anyway. So how has EMDR
therapy helped you? I've always beenkind of fascinated by it. I know

(01:05:45):
you said you kind of had togo through and relive all of the memories.
Yeah. When I was looking fortherapy, like I started deciding I
needed something, I knew straight talktherapy just wasn't going to work for me
because I could talk about what happenedto me with anybody, like it's just
didn't do anything, so over thistime they try emgr and when I researched
it and like this sounds like aload of baloney, like they're gonna retrain

(01:06:06):
my brain waves to see positives ina negative situations, like this is crap,
But I'll give it a go.So I did, and it was
very traumatizing because you can either liketap your fingers or he can like snap
and make sounds like you can usewhat my choice was to use these little
handheld they're like vibrate in your handand they go back and forth for time

(01:06:29):
to intervals, so you hold thoseand he'll like put you back into a
memory. My memory, of course, was the big one of watching Alexia's
body on the floor with my momsmiling at her. That was the one
we kind of always went back toand close your eyes and you like relive
it and you ask you a questionand you have to think about it while
you're like reliving it in your head. And I thought, Okay, I'm

(01:06:50):
just gonna remember what I already remember, which isn't much because I've blocked a
lot. But with each session itgot more and more in depth than it
was literally like read living being thereover again. I remembered smells and sounds
and feelings and stuff that I hadpushed way way back. And that's where
the book came from, because Ijust started writing after every session to try

(01:07:12):
to like get it out because Iwas remembering things that I didn't remember.
As we went through the sessions,he would be like, Okay, so
this is how you remember it,but what's something positive about it? I'm
like, what do you mean house, or something positive about watching my sister
die or you know whatever. Hegoes, Well, you tried to help
her throw up, You did allthese things to help her try to survive,
and he did you. So hehelped me see the positives and how

(01:07:35):
much I actually did do back thenand reprocess it and so eventually that the
guilt wasn't there as much, likeI don't blame myself anymore for what happened
because I know that no matter whatI choice I made, it probably still
would have ended up being the sameoutcome. I just would have been hurt
more dead. So it was along process. So once we went through

(01:07:56):
all of the memories, then youhave to like installed They called the installation
phase where you pick a phrase orfeeling and try to like make that what
you're working towards, and mine wasI'm working on not being broken, like
I'm not broken, and so we'redoing that. And then after that phase,
which we're in the last phase now, which I thought I was gonna

(01:08:17):
take longer, but as moved quitea long. Now I'm using what I've
learned about my past and how tohandle the triggers and the emotions to deal
with an upcoming event that I mightfind problematic, which I'm using Larry's hearing
because it's the first time we're doingit. It's the first one I'm actually
going to have to hear about hishistory in prison, his take on what

(01:08:41):
happened back then. So I'm likedoing movies in my head for different outcomes
of what could possibly happen, whathe could say, how the board couldn't
receive it, if you can getreleased or is denied. So we're working
in all the different scenarios we cancome up with, so whatever happens,
I'll be able to handle it andnot go back into like a mental breakdown
like I had about a year ago. So I didn't think it would work.

(01:09:05):
I thought it was a load ofbologney but I am glad I gave
it a go because I'm more atpeace and happier than I think i've ever
been, and I'm really able totake it into my parenting. Which is
one of my biggest reasons for doingit. Is so when I feel myself
stre and you're like, they'll losemy cool because they know how to push
your buttons, I just know howto. I'm like, I'm the mom,

(01:09:26):
this is what's happening, deal withit, and I walk away.
My oldest one looks at me,like, wait, what's happening. Normally
you fight back. I'm like,no, not anymore. So it's pretty
cool to be able to do that. Yeah, you can always address the
issue later, exactly. I don'tlose it and yell like crazy like I
used to. She's not crying becauseI said something I didn't mean to say.
So it's a process. I mean, I'm sure it's not always going

(01:09:48):
to be perfect, but at leastnow I can I can identify when things
are starting to go south and walkaway. You've come a long way,
you know, since the angry teenagerthat you understandably were, and going through
foster care and living in different homesfor years and years, and I'm so
glad to see that you and missusCooper or miss Tammy or whatever it is

(01:10:10):
you call her now, Tammy yaTammy. Yeah, that you're still friends.
She's like my best friend, actually, I mean next to my husband.
I'm actually in November, I decided, with any money that I actually
make off of this book, we'regonna do fun things that they make fun
memories, either family vacations or likevacations for my husband and I. So

(01:10:30):
my husband I have never gone awaytogether alone in all these years we've been
together. So we're going to goin to Vegas in November, just for
like three days, but she's goingto meet us there. Oh that's nice.
I'll be able to see Tammy inVegas and we're gonna go see Rob
Stewart and just you know, havea nice couple days together. So,
oh that's awesome. I'm really excited. Yeah. Absolutely, how amazing She's
stuck with you, not only throughthe initial time, which is unusual to

(01:10:56):
begin with, but then for yearsand years afterward. It's beautiful. You
tell me that that very first nightshe goes, I'll be here for you
as long as you want me.And she even that's forever. And I
didn't believe her at thirteen years old. I was like, Okay, yet,
whatever, lady, you're just likeany other adult in my life.
But she proved me wrong, evenwhen I wasn't nice to her, even
when I stopped talking to her forlike a year, Like, she's still

(01:11:16):
there. Yeah, that's a realfamily. That's great. She's the best.
I'm so glad. I'm glad youhave support from a lot of different
people who were involved. And nowyou've got your husband and your kids,
and you've built up a life foryourself. So congratulations, You've done an
amazing job, not just surviving butthriving. And that's part of the reason
I wrote the book too, wasonce I started the therapy and started writing,

(01:11:39):
I realized, wow, this isbasically a book. Now, might
as well finish it. And Iwas like, if I can help one
kid in foster care or one personwho's dealt with trauma in their life know
that there's a way out of it, that'll be all worth it, money
aside anything else. And I've gottenso many wonderful messages from people who have
had trauma or people who are undecisiveabout doing fostercare and then decided that they

(01:12:00):
want to do it now because they'veread my book. Or one lady her
mother did foster care for years,and she goes, now, I understand
that the attitude all those kids havewhen living with us wasn't due to us.
It was them trying to process.She goes, It's a whole nother
way of viewing things, And I'mhelping people, and that's what I wanted.
Alexia's death is helping someone somewhere Beforewe go. I definitely want to

(01:12:26):
ask you what you remember about Alexiaand who she was and the things she
liked, and your memories of her, which is sad to say, there
aren't a lot. Unfortunately, theones I do remember are mostly tragic.
But she was always quiet and sweet, really girly compared to me, like
I've never been girly, but shewas more of the one of the long
hair and to dress up and dothe things like that. And she used

(01:12:50):
to love to draw and play withPlato and we did that a lot.
But my favorite memory of her isevery time we would leave Larry's house.
He had these beautiful gardenia bushes rightout of the front door. And she
would smell them every single day,and she would pick them every time.
We'd all tell her she's not supposedto pick the flowers. She's gonna get
in trouble for picking the flowers,but she just had, and like,

(01:13:12):
why are you keep picking them?She goes, because they're beautiful and they
smell so good. I love them. So now every time I see a
guardinio or I smell that scent,it's like it puts me right back into
that moment of her always stealing themand putting the flowers in her hair,
and it's the best. Like,and now I have Guardinia bushes all over
my front yard, so anywhere Igo, she's she's there, right,
Yeah, it's like she's right therewith you. Well, I'm really glad

(01:13:35):
that you reached out. I cannotbelieve that I had never heard of your
story before. But it's very importantto me to get Alexeia's story out there
and yours because they're both equally important. Thank you. I mean, I
think it's weird too that not alot of people know what happened, Like,
yeah, I don't, I don'tget that. I mean, I
know it wasn't social media back then. That really that much, But there

(01:13:57):
was newspapers and TV, so Idon't understand and how it was so hush
hush, right. I think thisshould be a bigger story even now.
It should be told. You know, Alexeia's story should be told. Your
story should be told. Thank you. I appreciate you sharing our story and
hopefully getting Alexeia out there to helpothers and make it enough public outcry that

(01:14:18):
those monsters won't ever be released.People can write the board if they choose
to. They do allow public outcryfrom the public. Oh that's good,
okay, So I'll include any informationI can get as far as writing the
parole board, anything we can doto help keep them where they belong,
because I know you don't need themfloating around out there in the public.

(01:14:38):
No, because I know Barbara,she will try to find me, do
either try to get something from me, because she'll figure out whims I'm mois
successful, and she'll try to manipulateme into paying her to go away or
something. But she would attempt tojust to mess with me. I know
it, right, And the lastthing you want is her in your kid's
life. Oh no, no,No, You've done a great job.
Of getting through everything and making themost of yourself. So congratulations on that,

(01:15:01):
and thank you for telling us thestory. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you so much to Jessica forsharing her story with me, and for
sharing Alexeia's story, which must neverstop being told. Alexia Anne Real will
forever be five years old, butshe should never be forgotten. Alexeia with

(01:15:27):
three feet tall, weighed forty pounds, and was described as being bi racial,
half white and half Asian, withbrown hair and brown eyes. If
Alexia was alive today, she wouldbe turning thirty two this month. For
obvious reasons, her remains have neverbeen found. Rest in peace, Alexeia
Anne Reale, you are loved morethan you ever knew. I'll include links

(01:15:50):
in the show notes to Jessica's book, retired FBI agent Jeffrey Reineck's book,
in which chapter five is dedicated toJessica and Alexeia's story, and a few
other resources. And I'll also includeaddresses for the parole representatives who absolutely need
to hear the public outcry against theeventual release of both Larry and Barbara Carrasco.

(01:16:11):
In particular, Larry's hearing is comingup in less than two months,
so let's flood the parole board withour opinions on that. And even though
Barbara's hearing may or may not takeplace before twenty twenty five, let's get
those letters in now as well.Your name and address will be considered confidential.
My sources for this episode were JessicaRial's book I'm Not Broken, Surviving

(01:16:32):
the House of Demons, the CharlieProject, Inside the Crime Files podcast with
Anne Marie Schubert. In the Nameof the Children, An FBI Agent's relentless
pursuit of the nation's worst predators byJeffrey L. Reineck, WebMD, the
National Capital Poison Center, Healthline allabout Vision, Health Tap, the Sacramento

(01:16:54):
b Court documents, and Jessica Reale. That's it for the week. Join
me next time for another episode.If you like the show, please follow
or subscribe to Suffer the Little Childrenon Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, YouTube,
Spotify, Spreaker, Pandora, iHeartRadio, Stitcher, or your favorite podcast

(01:17:15):
listening app, and please leave mea five star rating and a positive review
on your favorite podcast platform. Visitthe website at Suffer the Little Children pod
dot com. You can support theshow by visiting Patreon dot com slash st
l c pod, where you canbecome a patron for rewards ranging from a
shout out by name on the showto bonus content and exclusive gifts. You

(01:17:38):
can also support the show at kodashfi dot com slash st l c pod.
Follow the podcast on Facebook and Instagramat Suffer the Little Children pod,
and on TikTok at stlcpod. Viewphotos related to today's episode on Facebook.
For more stories like the one youheard today, visit Suffer the Little Children

(01:18:00):
blog dot com. This podcast isresearched, written, hosted, edited and
produced by Lane Intro. Theme musicis by dream Note Music, and AllMusic
for the show is licensed from audioJungle dot net. For more information about
preventing or reporting child abuse, visitchildhelp dot org or call your area's child
abuse hotline. And remember, ifyou see something, say something.

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