April 26, 2024 • 58 mins
A new paper called The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans (2024) reveals that the Proto-Indo-European languages originated in the Yamnaya and Sredny Stog cultures of Ukraine and South Russia. The split of PIE languages from Anatolian languages is revealed to have taken place on the steppe. Sredny Stog DNA is found in Hittite samples proving the real IE people were Steppe herders from Eastern Europe and not an unknown Armenian population as previously claimed. I discuss the findings in this stream
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(00:20):
They've come up with a paper calledthe Genetic Origin of the Indo Europeans,
and they're walking back some of thestuff they said in a paper they released
in twenty twenty two, which Idid is drive talk on called Southern Arc
and I did a streamer on SouthernArc theory where I put forward a lot
of my objections to the claims within. I was blite about it. I
(00:42):
did think it was actually a goodpaper and interesting, but I just didn't
agree with the stuff they were saying. Some people said I was coping and
all kinds of things, but Iwasn't coping. I was right about so
much. And now I've been vindicatedby a lot of what I said in
that stream. We'll go into thattoday. There's actually been two papers,
but I can't really go over bothof them, but they both cover the
same thing, and they're both inthe same people, and the people are
(01:06):
mostly the same ones who involved inthe Southern Art thing. But it seems
to me that the named author,Lazaridas, isn't one hundred percent giving up
on his old idea, but thatthis paper, which collaborates with the Right
Lab and Rights Team collaborate with DavidAnthony, a renowned archaeologist who knows all
about in the European stuff and hasbeen saying for years and years and years
(01:29):
before the DNA stuff camp that theKurgan Steppe cultures are the origin of the
Proton European and I think his influencehas encouraged them probably to walk back some
of the rather outlandish claims about asouthern homeland south of the Caucuses for the
Proton E European languages, and doesseem that Lazaridas is the member of that
(01:49):
team who wants to hold on tothat idea. Now, I'm going to
go over what the different people claim, but I just wanted to understand that
wherever like the differ different sources comefor these step peoples, it is absolutely
unquestioned how everyone's certain that the dispersionof all Indo European languages comes from Europe,
so they dispersed out of Europe.And even if as Lazaridis is still
(02:15):
trying to cling to, like maybesome pre p Proto Indo Anatolian like ancestral
language of which we can't even reconstruct, came from outside Europe south of the
Caucasus, which I don't think istrue anyway, because it's going to come
from either from one of the huntergatherer groups that formed the Protondo European races
on the step, and that includesWestern hunder Garrises and hunder gatherers, the
(02:38):
mixed Western East and Hundergarriers of Ukrainerather and also some Caucus hunter gatherers.
But that's irrelevant really, like becausethat's not Proton to European, that's not
the ancestral language whatever. It is. The language that everyone, all the
Indo European families come from is theone that was spoken in Ukraine and that's
dispersed out of Ukraine by European group. So it's just correct to say that
(03:02):
the Proto in Europe in Proto IndoEuropean family family is a European language family
that's spread from Europe from by Europeanpeople. Yeah, there's no question of
that. So like just ignore alllike the sort of third world chauvinists who
want to want to pretend that theydon't have any you know, culture,
(03:23):
ancestral ties to Europe. Because ifyou speak and if you if you come
from an Indo European language group inIndia or Iran or wherever it is,
in the world. Ultimately it goesback to the step in Europe. Now,
if you want to know about allthis stuff, like I mean,
it all began in the eighteenth centurywith like dis a language question, and
(03:45):
then from there, like in thenineteenth century, like archaeology got involved,
and like the evidence has been gatheringup on all the different theories. And
it's actually a fascinating history of thisacademic tradition of arguing about where the homeland
is. And now obviously it's completelybeen shaken to pieces since twenty fifteen by
really strong genetic evidence that has givenlike the archaeological evidence support and showing that
(04:10):
the Kergan hypothesis which actually is firstsuggested in the nineteenth century by but there's
as an Englishman who suggested it,but I think there may have been a
Russian who suggested it even earlier.But the South Russian origin you know,
or you know is very old now, it's from the nineteenth century and it's
obviously true. Now that's what thispaper is showing. So but if you
(04:30):
want to know about that, Ican recommend a book that would be worth
read, and it's basically that Alande Benoir, the Indo Europeans In Search
of the Homeland is a book whichgoes over all that basically the history of
this academic argument. But if youhaven't got time to read it, which
(04:55):
a lot of people don't these days, especially since it's like going over like
the arguments that are now mostly provenwrong by different peoples, you can get
a quick version of it, likefrom a website I love called Legian.
Legion is kind of like a nonwoke version of Blinkist. And if you
don't know what that means, well, it's a condensed version of books.
(05:16):
It's got all. If you geta subscription as this website, you get
all different books, nonfiction books condensedinto much more manageable and quick versions.
So nonfiction books consists of twenty percentnew info and about eighty percent known info,
and you only really want to knowwhat the original information is, so
this just gets to the meat ofthe matter. Furthermore, there's so much
information out there, so this islike a pre selection of well curated content,
(05:43):
so you're going to get good books, access to good books, and
not woke books. Because the peoplewho run this are like proper academic minded
people, and Legent really shined throughinnocence because it gives you essential new original
ideas as well as like other traditionalacademic ideas that have fallen out of fashion,
and that fresh info from the newfrom the books condensed into twenty five
(06:06):
minutes or less, so you canget a crash course in the history of
the Indo European research from pre geneticera, you know, of the like
over one hundred years of academia intwenty five minutes. So you can listen
like as as a podcast kind ofthing, or like listen to it spoken,
or you can read it if youprefer, or you can do both
(06:26):
at the same time to help youabsorb the information. If you don't like
the service is a seven day moneyback guarantee, so it's really you know
what's what's said to lose. It'sbrand new service run out of Germany.
But I really recommend it. Andnow here's the paper, the genetic origin
of the Indo Europeans, and there'sa lot of authors on there. Lazaridis
(06:48):
is the first, David Anthony isthe third, and he I think is
a guy pushing things in the rightdirection. Rights put himself at the end,
but he's obviously this is huge discoveriesin the world of Proton to European
orients. And it's kind of reaffirmingwhat the first like big Genetic paper were
saying in twenty fifteen that the stepand the Yamnia are very crucial for understanding
(07:09):
it. But previously only enthusiasts onthe Internet like myself, have been trying
to say that. Please look atShredney Stogg. Sredney'stog is ancestral to Yamni
in all probability, it's older thanYamni, is certainly archaeologically ancestral, and
like has influence on Yamnia. It'sthe same like general genetic group, it's
(07:30):
the same region, it's got manyof the same customs. It's obviously going
to be because Yamni it's too lateto be early Proton to European, so
it's got to be something a bitearlier, and that is Sredney Stogg.
And if you want to have likea Proto Anatolian language with Proto Indo European
as a separate branch from Anatolian,fine, you can just say Stog's that
too. So I'm a big Stogadvocate and have been for years now,
(07:54):
and this paper finally looks properly atsredney'stog as a major candidate, and as
a result we make some great progress. Now, yeah, and as I
said before, many of my complaintsabout the Southern arc theory from my line's
stream in August twenty twenty two havebeen vindicated. You can go back and
watch that stream. The paper focusesnow on three different genetic clines. Now
(08:20):
I'll try and show you what CLINmeans, because it refers to a PCA,
a principal component analysis chart, whichplots data in a kind of way
that you would see this sort ofthing happening. Now, each dot is
a specific in the stample, anancient sample, and you can see from
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the way to distributed how they're relatedto each other, and they can form
clusters, which means they're all geneticallysimilar, and they can form clus and
then between clusters you can get likea cline showing that like the different far
Park clusters have intermediate populations who arelinking them, they're related to both sides
(09:05):
of the clime, and that showsthat there's gene flow going along those clines,
like up and down, up anddown, like this one of them
is called the Vulgar cline. Theystart off with saying, like I should
say, they've got this thing CLV. So CLV is where they're saying the
real core Indo European race, ifnot language as well, but they think
(09:28):
language too is formed. But CLVmeans causes lower Vulgar. Then the Vulgar
is an important river that goes it'sreally long, and it goes all the
way from the Caspian. It emptiesinto the Caspian, but it starts all
the way up here, way outby, way out by, like you
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know, as far north as Latvia, up in northern Russia. So it
links northern Europe with not only withlike the Causes, but it's been a
way for like the Vikings for example, to trained with people in the Middle
East. So it's really linking thefar north of the human world with the
with the with the major Mesopotamian civilization. So it's a big it's very long.
Now the CLV they're talking about llower Volga. So this area down
(10:13):
here and where it matches up withthe Caucasus, now that's actually the map
doesn't show. That's actually a hugearea with lots of diversity in it.
Of course the Caucasus are dominated bythe HD signal of Caucus hunter gatherer,
where was a further up the Vulgaryou go, the more eastern hunter gatherer
you get, which is a moreEuropoid type, very robust. But there's
(10:37):
also in this other map I wantedyou to see many other huge river systems.
In the western step the don actuallynow connected to the Vulgar of the
canal comes down here, then tothe west of the Donnets and then the
Nipa, which they use in thenew paper. Now instead of they're using
like Ukrainian words whenever there's a thingin Ukraine, even though the convention in
(11:00):
English is to use the Russian becauseof the influence of Soviet archaeology. So
I say things like like I've alwayssaid niper and shredney Stock, they're calling
Stich. I think I don't haveto pronounce Ukrainian. I think that's how
so is sredney Stock and dnipro andbecomes there. So yeah, it's a
(11:20):
little bit confusing it because that's theconvention in England has been used Russian.
But because of the situation with thewar, they're being a bit sensitive to
the feelings of Ukrainian people. Soyeah, then the bug and the Denista.
Now the river systems. Prior tothe invention of step parstialism, the
the habitation of the Step was verymuch concentrated on the rivers. You didn't
(11:43):
have like lots of hunter gatherers likeout on the Step and the the the
intervention the introduction of wagons and cattleand domestication of horses by Sredney Stog by
the way, because the earliest horseriding evidence is not Yamni, it's Streadney
Stock to spreadny Stock were the firstto ride horses, and that just opens
(12:05):
up the steps, so they're nolonger tied to these rivers. But the
fact that the clines that these peoplethat this paper identifies relative to rivers is
important because it's actually the rivers werethe like the Nile in Egypt. Like
everyone was living along the Nile inEgypt. Now, the Step was not
an easy place to live for ahunter gatherer before, but once you have
(12:28):
partialism, the Step suddenly becomes thislush ocean of fodder to feed your cattle
and make food and make that dairyinstead of just basically a grassy desert.
So here's the caucus's lower Vulgar climb. At the bottom of it, you've
got chg here and then at thebottom on the other side of the caucases
after a gap, you've got MesopotamianMiddle Eastern peoples, Anatolian European farmers from
(12:54):
the other side of Anatolia who enteredAnatolia from the Western Antolia. So the
other client, the client climb.At the top of the caucus lower Vulgar
clin, you've got the lower Vulgarpeople who are close to the Yamnia.
So this red group here is Yamnia, and there's this new group BP group
(13:15):
here, which are very important.Now I'm probably ancestral to Yamnia because they're
so close to Yamnia as you cansee, although there might there's some disagreement
on this, but anyway, thenext client you've got is the DNEPRO client
up the DNEPA and the NEPA endswith one end you've got these like people
with on the European end of thecaucus is lower Vulgar clin who have less
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hg Aka the yam Night end andthe yam Night on a cline also with
going towards UNHG, who are huntergatherers from Ukraine nearly the Ukraine, who
are a mixture of Western hunter gatherersfrom Western Europe and Eastern hunter gatherers from
Eastern Europe. Whereas there's another clienton the Vulgar going up from the lower
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Vulgar to the upper Vulgar, whereyou get more and more EHG because up
the top of the Vulgar in Russiathere's no Western under gatherer at that time.
It's just more pure EHG. Sothere's these clins by the rivers.
It's a little bit convoluted, butthat's what they base that. That's how
you've got to understand it. It'sall about this river systems. So the
(14:22):
Shredney's Dog is identified as being ancestralto Yamnia, as I've said it is
for a long time, and alsoas having more ancestry from the Western neper
Climb which includes the whg admixture.And we also now know from the paper
as I said that Anatolians, becausepreviously said the step can't be the original
(14:45):
protect although all all in the Europeanspeakers in the world, in Asia and
Europe all descend from these step perdaslike like Yamna. The Anatolian speakers don't.
So that's why they made up allthis stuff in twenty twenty two about
there was an earlier protoind Anatolian languagewhich was spoken by people who weren't the
Step group. And then the stepgroup is just the Proton and the European
(15:07):
breakoff of that and the original Protonthat Anatolians were just like a more an
unsampled Armenian population with like very COHDlike ancestry but not HD. Well,
well now we know that the centralAnatolian Hittites did have ancestry from what's probably
sredney'stog or yam Nya they say,But yeah, I'd say likely, said
Fredney Stogg. In my opinion,the Southern arch hypothesis as it was previously
(15:31):
presented in twenty twenty two is nolonger tenable, and the step hypothesis is
proven. Not only, I meanit was never They were never denying the
step hypothesis as the step as themain vector of all in the European languages,
but they were trying to exclude Anatolinand that's no longer possible. So
now all Indo European language groups areSTEP mediated. There's no question of that.
But there's an apparent disagreement between contributingauthors and David Anty's a STEP advocate.
(15:56):
But the named author, Joseph Lazarida, is still maintains and he's talking
about this more on Twitter rather thanthe paper. But he's going on Twitter,
you know, still trying to pushhis you know, Bernie can still
win. The ultimate origin is fromthe south, he thinks, And although
that this paper isn't really presenting thatas the most likely scenario, it's still
there as an option, but he'sreally pushing like this Mesopotamian's something with a
(16:21):
Suma cliin that isn't there really,I mean, the lower vulgar clin I
guess does go towards Mesopotamia, butyou know, there ain't no cure for
the Suma Klein blues. That paperis also showing that Yamnaia descend directly.
I said that ya Yamni descend directlyfrom Stredney Stog the corded where origin is
(16:42):
not shown in this paper. It'sstill unknown, but it's like I think
it's still likely Shredney Stog and ShredneyStog had variable ancestry, so they're not
all the same as you can seeon the nepro cline as a spread.
But Lazaridis on Twitter is still claiming, as he had for a while that
based on mainly on a few differentthings, but mainly on IBD descent identity
(17:04):
by descent sharing, the length ofthe segments that are shared, that the
corded Where culture is not a cousinof Yamni, but a daughter, a
son of Yamna, daughter of Yamnahand direct, even though the hy lineages
are not supportive of that. Sohe's saying that's just because corded Where comes
from like a previously like peasant Yamniapopulation, like the class of Yamnia who
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had an uprising and then took over. Because that's why R and A is
not dominant in Yamnia but is verydominant in corded Where. So yeah,
I think that's just not good enough. Really, I'm still thinking it's possible,
it's not proven. I think theorigin there's absolutely no question. Now,
if Yamna comes from Stredney's dog,then Cordedware comes from stredny Stock as
(17:51):
well, Because wasn't what the onlyquestion is is corded whare directly from Fredney's
dog or is it via Yamnia oris it some kind of combination, Like
there was a breakoff from swredney'stog andthen there were some yam Ni descendants who
merged with that breakoff, and that'swhy it would be a little bit more
complicated. But you know, they'reall roughly the same race in the sense
they're all that same group accorded whereBellbeaker, Yamnia, Sudney Stog. They
(18:17):
show that Yamnai is not just amix of a CHG mixed middle down population
with an additional influx of CHG likepopulation as previously claimed, and that additional
influx, they were claiming it includeda levantine portion. This is what they're
saying in twenty twenty two, andI was just like, no one could,
(18:37):
no one else was coming up withthese models. It was a bit
weird. I mean, there wasthe same their models weren't reliable one hundred
percent because they were saying that youcan't model Anatolians with step ancestry. But
now they're saying, actually you can, which is what everyone, like the
amateurs were all telling them, likeyou can, you can look, you
can, you can model Hittites withstep ancestry, but that yam Nia.
They say that Yamni had now they'dhave early European farmer admixture from Europe,
(19:03):
as many amateurs have been saying,And in my Yamna documentary, I said,
you can't just model Yamnia as HGplus EHG. You've got to include
a Western source as well of Europeanfarmers with a little bit of Western hunter
gatherer which I mean the wester hundergatherer can be from this Ukraine Neolithic hunter
(19:26):
gatherers which have Western hunder gathered client. But yeah, they've got to have
a bit of Anatolian Western Anatolian in. They also say Yamnia has additional Siberian
sourced via the Vulgar, a huntergatherer admixture on top of the Don the
Don mediated EHG and HG river Don. This like a Central Asian sauce from
(19:51):
coming down the Vulgar with extra extralike they're calling it Central Asian origin,
but another sort of basically of extraEHG like stuff or extra ancient North Eurasian
ancestry as well coming in via Siberiaat some point like ancient Siberia. Yeah,
they saying remont Noua, and likeMycop were buried in Kurgans. That's
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the Kirgan burial right was widespread seventhousand years ago among people of diverse ancestry
from both edges and middle of theCLV, client, suggesting that regardless of
his ultimate origin and whether it wasculturally adopted or spread by migration, it
was common among people of the CLV. In contrast, a distinctive position of
body on the back with knees raisedand the floor of the barrel pit covered
(20:36):
with red ocha was shared by allthe step groups, including Stradney's doog On
groups on the Vulgar c line andRemonteneua, while the Mycop burial position was
contract contacted on one side by theIndo European burials that we take like we
associate with Indo Europeans, like thecultures for long time after this going well
well well after the step includes fromdifferent groups on the step that were drawn
(21:02):
together, and that includes the redochre, some of the pits and the
knees raised and grave goods and abarrow or kuragan as they say, and
it's a Turkic word used in Russia. But I think you just usue an
Indo European word like barrow, sincethey're Indo European people, so barrows definitely
(21:22):
a good sign. But yeah,it's not clear how those come together yet.
From these they also say there isevidence of some late CHG flow,
like the time they were talking aboutbefore, which they were calling levantine like
DNA, which is like one percentlevantine or something, the way they modeled
it, which was I think wrong, which they're calling now ak Nashan like,
(21:45):
which is an Armenian population, andthey're finding death in Yamnia, some
Yamnia which would support Southern arc.But it isn't at all viable as a
candidate for Proto Indo Anatolian or ProtoIndo Europeans. It's the common ancestry for
Proto Indo Anatolian is now shown.Let's talking about it being CLV. So
the common ancestry you find in allthe Indo European cultures archaeologically now is CLV,
(22:11):
not this acnationhanlike thing so which isfound in some groups on the step.
Because not all population movements cause languagechanges, there was a quite complicated
mixture of peoples on that region becauseit's like an intersection of rivers the edge
of a mountain range that separates Europefrom the Middle East. So of course
you're going to get occasional admixture fromone to the other, but not all
(22:33):
of them are going to be causingthings. And certainly I don't think this
act nation like ancestry could be thesource of all these huge changes, because
there's no evidence of an act nationlike archaeological influence on these cultures that are
going to be responsible for Indo Europeans. The Yamnaya trace the majority of their
ancestry to a progress to related populationwhich they call BP group, whose habitation
(22:57):
range spanned from the Lower Vulgar tothe North Caucuses the CLV region, and
the newly identified BP group descended fromEast European hunting gatherers and HG and the
ancient North Eurasian population in Central Asia. So that's where the yam I are
(23:18):
getting that extra A and e ancestryfarm because it's in the BP group already.
The paper models so called kor Yamnaiaas Stredney Stog plus Remontenia. But
I have some some of my amateurcolleague, and my colleagues are the amateur
enthusiasts of genetics like myself, prefera simpler model, which we feel is
more evidence archaeologically to support it.That kor Yamnaya as they're calling it in
(23:44):
this paper is just the BP groupwith extra European farmer and Ukraineolithic hunger gatherer
shifting it to the west. Likeon like I showed you like here,
look there Yamnia and the red there'sthe BP group, these green circles here.
And if you get that green groupand it gets a little bit of
(24:08):
you know, something to the west, I mean it could be Shredney's starg
it could be something yeah, likea little bit of Ukrainianlythic Hundagaa, but
that would it's gone down a bitfurther as well to make it a bit
southern. So yeah, it's it'sat the intersection of these clients. So
anyway, the Hittites were successfully modeledas having eight to ten percent Yamnia or
(24:33):
Sredney stock ancestry, which is that'senough to you know, for an elite
dominance model to explain how Anatolian languagescame in in you know, like your
elite dominance model means something like notlike Anglo Saxons as such, more like
the Norman conquest, something like thathappened in Anatolia, confirming that Indo European
(24:56):
Anatonian languages originated in the Step,and we can model we can model the
Step ancestry in Anatolia as Sredney Stog, so in which case we can just
go ahead and call Sredney Stog protoIndo Anatolian. In my opinion, I
don't think the paper says this,but yeah that I think you can just
go ahead. Early Shredney Stog couldbe proto Nanaatolian. Late Sredney Stog is
(25:21):
Proto and European, and then Yamnayais late Proto Indo European. Nice and
simple. That's what I would say. They don't say that, though,
But they've got like four proposed hypotheseshypotheses hypotheses for the Proto Indo Anatolian annoying,
stupid way of saying a European languageto refer to India and Anatolia for
(25:44):
a language that comes from Europe.But yeah, that's what it's called the
origin of this language family. It'sthey've got like A B and C and
there's two types of a A Eastand a West. Let me just show
you the graphic it for this.It's quite interesting. Two tell me in
the comments as well which one youthink is the best. So you've got
(26:10):
me. I'm one hundred percent aWest. So this is about how it
got there. The paper does notand Lazar readus as well as saying on
like, there's not the genetic evidenceis not in favor of a West.
He says, but you can showand not in the paper doesn't go into
this, but you can show howShredney Stog ancestry goes from Swidney stock here
(26:32):
into a series of different archaeological culturesdown the Balkans that's been demonstrated in genetics,
and then into the Istanbul Kurgans.There's some Kurgans by Istanbul and the
Bosphorus near the Bosporus, and that'sall in the timeline for the Anatolian languages.
So that would explain how that ancestrygot there. But the paper doesn't
(26:56):
support that. They're much more goingfor hypothesis East, where instead the ancestry
that the step people somehow came intoover the corpses, mixed with the Mesopotamian
like people and then went westward intoAnatolia. The merits of each theory is
(27:21):
that, well, the west onehas some genetic evidence of striddenly stock ancestry
going westward through the Balkans, andthere's also good archaeological evidence for that as
well. And also the diversity ofAnatolian languages is greater in the west,
so you expect that to mean thewest side of Anatolia is the origin because
there's not so much on the east. But they do have a pretty good
(27:41):
argument to support their eastern thing,which is based on the fact that their
central Anatolian like samples of Hittite peopledominated by all have Mesopotamian ancestry and are
lacking in are like extra European ancestrythat the serdainly dog would have picked up
(28:04):
going via the Bulkans. And thisis why Lazaridis says he doesn't support a
west But yeah, it's still Imean, they missed modeled Anatolia completely is
having no step before now they're sayingit does have up to ten percent steps,
So I'm not sure if I'd saythat they're just missing I mean also,
remember in twenty eighteen they were sayingthere's no there's no European farmer ancestry
(28:30):
in Indian people with Step ancestry,so it's like it can't be from a
Step source with European ancy. Butthen they retracted that actually there is European
farmer ancestry, So yeah, itwas Andronovo. It's the source of the
Aryans in India. But sometimes theymake a mistake like that, so it's
possible. I think they're just missingsomething, and there is extra Western ancestry
(28:51):
in the Anatolians, so that theA West theory works. But maybe there's
a combined theory. I know somepeople who are telling me that is evidence
of and I don't know about this, but there's an archaeological argument as well.
I don't understand yet about some kindof diffusion from this Step into the
Armenia, which would be maybe asource for a hypothesis A East hypothesis B
(29:15):
and C are basically variants of theirold twenty twenty two ideas about southern arc,
which is that okay, so Ais that like proto in Anatolian is
an Armenian or Anatolian language, andthat the proto in the European languages just
went up over the Caucuses and that'swhere all proto the European languages come from,
(29:38):
except the Anatolians, which went fromArmenia into Anatolia, and that was
what they were pushing before. ButI don't it just doesn't work now because
we know that the Anatolians have stepancestry from north, so they should just
abandon that. And then there's thishypothesis C, which is like a mixed
version of it, which has liketwo versions of protoined anatoli on one above
(30:02):
the north and one above the Carpusesand one below. So yeah, pretty
convoluted. But I'd say, yeah, I'm all a west. What do
you guys think. I'll look inthe comments for a bit and then I
will Ian gets five dollars. Whatdo you think of the Anatolian Indo European
(30:22):
language not sharing words for cart andhorse or having the same grammar. I
don't actually have great knowledge of Anatolianlanguage vocabulary. Yeah, they obviously,
it's quite clear in my opinion thatAnatolian languages broke off at a very early
date. Everyone agrees on that forthe linguistic argument, but also the like
in terms of like the archaic natureof the Anatolian languages, but also just
(30:44):
like the vocabulary is missing some ofthe things. It came off at a
time when the speakers were still quiteprimitive. And that's another thing like people
don't understand because like Chg are relatedas a population Iran Theolithic, but around
Theolithic, it is not the samerace or Culturechg are very primitive hunder gatherer
(31:06):
people and they have like you know, quite robust skulls as well, not
like around Theolithic and like that arefarming people, so they're more like Anatolian
farmers in that sense. They're goingto be more gracile, and they have
like settled communities. Like the CHGstuff on the step is not all You
shouldn't think of it as influenced froma southern civilization, as they were trying
(31:29):
to argue before. It's influenced froma Southern population who were no less primitive
than the other hunter gatherers on thestep in most cases, but there might
be later integrations to people from thesouth who are connected to civilized Mesopotamia cultures
as well. But yeah, chgare like just another robust skull. Primitive
(31:52):
people farming ruined us. Someone saysSeamus says God or gods be with the
days when Grecian autism would continue interpretWest Eurasian arcade in progression and even African
genetics papers loll okay. I thinkhe's referring to the fact that Lazaridis is
(32:16):
Greek. James Melly five pounds,Thank you both. Thank you both Seamus
and James. They model Yamnai equalsSredney Stog plus CLV. I believe there
is a critical CLV pop in KalnikiVolga Delta. Ludovic Orlando models wild Dom
(32:39):
two horse ancestors here. So butin case you're not aware, the Dom
two horses are the first domestic horsesfrom which all the world's domestic horses descend
subsequently or history, and they werefirst domesticated by Shredney Stog people. So
(33:00):
if this Orlando is saying that domtout, the wild ancestors of all of
dom Tu came from that region,then it would support the idea that there's
a critical population in that region ofkalm Nikia. But I don't know.
In the Volga del To you sayinginteresting. Thank you for that comment,
James. Here is an interesting model, not by it from the paper,
(33:22):
but done by an amateur enthusiast onthe Internet called fool Tide, and he
is using the Haa duo to modelUkraine. He's saying that the here's got
the ak nation from Armenia that they'resaying is so important. But he's just
pointing out that it isn't because thisKalmiki Russia, Kalmikia yamna zero, Kazakhstan
(33:47):
yamna zero, Russia Samara yamna zero, Ukraine early Bronze age jam now zero
and then one Russia causes and rightnext to the right, next to Caucus
Mountains in the early Bronze age threepercent. So you're not there's not a
good reason to say Akna Shan isimportant, or that like anything from the
(34:08):
south of the Caucuses is important tounderstanding these the Proto and Europeans. I
really don't think the Southern ideas havegot any like merit. I've got the
feeling that Lazaridis is still going tocling to them for a bit, but
I don't think his colleagues agree withhim. But we'll see, we'll see
here's some of the other archaeological culturesinvolved before three thousand BC. So Europe
(34:35):
has here the globular amphoraiculture, whichwould be crucial for the formation of corded
ware. When the Yamni move westand then down here you've got the my
Cop important southern culture on the edgeof the Yamnai land. Yamni are them
dominating the steppe. Comed were peopleup north and there's yeah saying my Cops
(34:55):
sphere of influence and the gag sphereof influence. So the Yamni in between
the settled spheres of influence of theglobraandphora and the Mycop and they're claiming maybe
that Yamni had an intermediary role,I guess from that map. But Kukatanny
Trapilia is also extremely important and arenot on that map for some reason,
and they are in there as well. I'm not sure why they didn't put
(35:20):
them on the map. And Katakum, here's a later after three thousand BC.
Katakum culture is just a late formof Yamnia variant. It's only it's
not different in the genetic sense.It's just it's the core area of the
Yamna culture. Has this variant burialcalled Katacumb culture because Yamni means pit,
but some of them developed their pitsinto katakums, hence Katakumb culture, and
(35:44):
they are the origin of the Greeks. Pretty sure that's the case. The
movement into Greece that formed the Greeklanguage came from the Katakumb culture because Katakum
culture also had things like death masks, which you can see in the early
Mycennian beautiful gold masks. Everyone knowsabout. Those are probably a development of
that earlier katacomb culture death mask.I'd also like to say that there are
(36:07):
some interesting haplogroup information. There's someinteresting Happler group information to talk about.
One hundred and eighty one new Yamnayasamples all mostly R one B, the
same variant which is not common inWestern Europe. Now it's a kind that's
found mostly only in the Middle East, but that was Armenians often habit because
(36:29):
Armenian Armenian languages come directly from yamNya. But that one hundred and twenty
five have one B variants. Butthe next biggest one after one B is
I two lineages which are associated withWHG Western under gatherers, which is very
interesting. And I've also shared recentlyon my social media that some of the
(36:53):
elite burials associated with the late Serdney'sdog culture carrying WHG lineages. I two
origin lineages, subclades. That's veryinteresting. It doesn't take say it don't
take it too far and say oh, that means that we can't take it
too far and say oh the WHGdominated Yamna. I don't think that there's
(37:15):
nothing the case like that. That'sjust that's not what I'm saying. But
it does so that like this patriarchalculture had paternal it's paternal origins of many
of the elite burials. At theearly stage the elite male had their ultimate
origin in Western hunter gatherers, whichdoesn't prove but makes suggested. It is
(37:37):
possible that the ancestral language of Protoand Anatolian came from Western hundter gatherers.
And then all the people are certainlike Western like some European chovenists I argued
with who were saying that European orin the European languages come from Western European
hunder gatherers. I said, someonesaid something said that to me I thought
(37:58):
it was ridiculous saying that in seventeen, but they might actually be right,
but it's impossible to know. We'llnever know the answers to that, because
you're talking beyond actually a reconstructible language. Now you can't really reconstruct any language
earlier in Indo European or Indo Anatolian, so it's all completely speculative at that
stage. There are also three Rone a samples among the yam Nya,
(38:23):
which is interesting because Yamnia. Thatshows that Yamnia did possess like there are
some Yamnia who had the R onea which later became the Happer group of
the recorded were So that would supportI suppose Las Readers's idea that he claims
on Twitter that they were a lowerlike sort of less powerful tribe within this
(38:46):
cultural sphere who later rose to prominenceand displaced previous elites. And there are
also a few Q one a andQ one B lineages which have their origin
on Siberia for the north, andthat'll be mediated via the EHG. So
yeah, so the R one B, the R one a and the Q
(39:07):
one and the Q one b,those are all being mediated ultimately by EHG,
So that's an argument that the predecessorof this language family is EHG origin,
whereas the I two is an argumentthat it could be Western hunder Gathered
origin. But there are also avery small minority of j derived ones from
(39:28):
the Caucuses which would which could beused to argue for as readers's preferred idea
that they come from the south ofthe causes. But going by numbers,
it looks like the R one Band the I two are the ones to
look out for most. But yeah, now some of these samples four I
think four of the R one Bsamples are not the R one B we
(39:51):
normally associate with Yamnaya and now now, as I said, associated with Armenians.
But it's the R and B Lfive one Hackler group, supposedly,
I've told and I can find oneof them is I eleven eight three eight.
Let me see if I can findit here. It is from the
Russian Vulgar Early Bronze Age L fiveto one. Here you go r L
(40:13):
five to one, r L fiveone, r L five to one.
These ones Vulgar Early Bronze Age,Romania, Russia, Kalmikia and Russia.
Don those all carry the L fiveone which is associated now with Western Europeans.
That's the Happler group that dominates that, the subclade that became the dominant
happer group of Western Europe. It'slike found It's it's one that came into
(40:37):
Rome, bringing e European Indo Europeanlanguages to Italy, to Britain. It's
the one associated with the Celts,with the with It's one that's present among
Germanic people. It's the one that'spresent in Iberia when the Bellbeakers came into
Iberia. So it's the it's theEuropean. It's the one that defines Europeans
most clearly, especially Western Europeans,because Eastern Europeans are more r one A
based. But that's very interesting.So the fact that that's present in Yamni
(41:01):
as well also is interesting. ButI don't know if it's an ancestral subclade
exactly, So it doesn't actually provethat bell Peaker is anwer yam Night is
ancestral to Bellbeaker. It's still notcertain that bell Beaker and corded ware.
Because bell Beaker comes from corded ware, we know that, but whether corded
ware came directly out of Yamni.Still I'm still I'm still not I'm open
(41:22):
to it being either as Lazarita's claimsthat Yamni is descended from Cordyway is descended
from Yamni, or as eurogenes.David Ski David wool and Ski has said
that it's not their both sister,their brother and sister or whatever, and
they both come from their brothers andthey come from certainly stock. But we'll
(41:49):
see, we'll see that will That'sa question that will be answered, I'm
sure as more data comes out.But yeah, and they're spread those are
spread out quite a lot from Yeah, like, oh sorry, I just
realized I've still got the spinning blokes. Let me just get rid of them
so you can see what I'm talkingabout. Here, Look, you got
this one has L five one.Im mind the way here I go.
(42:15):
This one has L five to one. This one in Romania has L five
to one, this one Kalmukia hasL five to one. And this one
from the don early Bronze age orYamnaya. Very very interesting. So this
Happer group information is fantastic. Butwhat really surprised me is that I too
is such a dominant thing, likeit's the later Indo European happy groups is
(42:35):
really really important. The one A, I mean, the two most successful
Indo European happ groups are this Lfive to one OL one B, which
is thanks to the Bell Beekers andA happy groups is all thanks accorded where.
But in the early Bronze agam Nya, those ones are very minor,
they're not important at all. AndI too is important, which is not
even like really associated within the Europeansnormally when people talk about it, because
(42:58):
it's a whg one. And italso associated very much with the megalith culture
in Western Europe because, as Isaid in my documentary about the origin of
the Megaliths and the Megalthic people innorthwestern France, it became dominant among the
Anatolian immigrants who mixed with the Westernhander gatherers there, and I too lineages
became very common all around Western Europe, from Spain up into Scotland. It
(43:23):
was I two dominated, but notthe same I two that you see here
in the yam Nya and the Stredney'sDog. But what a turnout for the
books. You know, you knowit ain't over till the Fat Lady sings.
There's so much interesting stuff that Ididn't know it was going to come
out. Maybe I'll read some ofthese other quotes that I got. Here's
(43:45):
one of more western origin of thecore yam NYA would also bring their latest
ancestors in proximity to the place oforigin of the corded ware complex, whose
origin is itself in question, butmust have certainly been in the area of
central eastern Europe occupied by the globularaphoriculture west of the core Yamnia. The
(44:06):
corded were population, which would tracea large part of his ancestry to the
Yamnia, was formed by admixture concurrentwith the Yamnia expansion. So here you
go, trace a large part ofhis ancestry to the Aamnia. They say
based on another paper which made thatclaim based on IBD descent, which is
not conclusive really, but yeah,I wouldn't be surprised if there was some
(44:28):
more complicated scenario going on. COLV. Klein people migrate, we provoke here
we've proposed the following hypothesis that COLVClin people migrated southwards around four four hundred
BC, or about a millennium beforethe appearance of the Yamnia admixing with different
(44:51):
substrating populations along the way and thenwestwards before finally reaching central Anatolia. So
they're not saying Yamnaia is the sourceof step ancestry and anato earlier is something
before Yamnaya Shredney stock. We infact find why chromosome evidence that is consistent
with the autozome evidence. Sporadic instancesof the step associated why chromozoon HAPPCAZU are
(45:14):
the one six three six in WestAsia, occurred at Arskal and Tepe in
Eastern Anatolia, and Klavan in Armeniain the early Bronze Age among individuals without
detectable step ancestry hmm, sudney stockto Yamni are the transition the growth from
(45:34):
effective under Yeah. So the sayingis just a few thousand people, not
a lot of people. These intervalthe Sudney stock were largely formed by admixture
before four thousand BC six thousand yearsago, likely somewhere within the geographic span
of the nipro donkline. The geographicalhomans of the quarded ware and Yamnai would
conceive of being geographical proximity allow forthe synchronous emergence and shared ancestry that Deprodne
(46:00):
area of the Sredney Stog culture fitsthe genetic data data as it explains the
ancestry of the nacent core Yamni andplaces them in precisely the area from which
both Corded were and Southeastern European Yamnaiin the west and the don Yamni in
the east could have emerged by admixtureof the core Yamnia with European farmers and
(46:20):
Unhg respectively. That sounds good.A recent study proposed a much deeper origin.
They're talking about the of I,indoanatolian I languages. They're talking about
hegety in Colleagues to six thousand BC, seven thousand years ago, or about
two millennia older than our reconstruction andthe consensus of other linguistic studies. It's
(46:40):
very important to understand that heget andColleagues is it's a very very very novel
language model which is completely out ofsync with all other language models, and
it's an experimental method, and itdeliberately excludes all genetic and archaeological data from
its calculations and only then attempted tofit them with that after having come up
(47:04):
with a model. So it shouldn'tbe used. It should be only it
should it should be ignored in myopinion, but I mean, you're gonna
look at it. It should betaken as with a big pinch of salt.
Peggoty and Collins is very It justdoesn't match up anything. So yeah,
the technical reasons for these older dateswill doubtlessly be debated by linguists.
From the point of view of archaeogenetics, we point out that the post three
(47:25):
thousand BC genetic transformation of Europe bycorded Were and Beaker cultures on the heels
of the Amnar expansion is hard toreconcile with linguistic linguistic split times of European
languages consistently and less than four thousandBC, as no made greater than for
them. There's no major pan Europeanarchaeological or migratory phenomena that are tied to
(47:46):
the postulated South Caucuses Indo Anatolian homelandaround six thousand BC can be discerned.
So yeah, the Hegot thing isjust not good timeline. It doesn't work.
These findings disprove theories that Kirgan Oh. They also found this is interesting,
the genetic relationship between people in Kurgancemeteries like Barrissed cemeteries, disproved theories
(48:07):
that Kirgan's were family tombs like whenwe see and it compares them here to
the Neolithic tombs that you see inlike that start in Brittany. And then
they specifically give the example of theones in Hazelton Long Barrow in England and
the Neolithic tombs in Ireland because thoseare well sampled genetically, whereas the ones
in France, the first ones inFrance actually whereas originate, are not well
(48:29):
sampled, which is because of theFrench being weird. But yeah, those
are all like quite closely related peoplein those tombs, and sometimes the tomb
it's one tomb contains many generations ofa family. That's not what in the
Europeans were like at all, andthese were not family tomb. Instead,
the Kirgan cemeteries largely included individuals thatwere biological kin only in the sense of
(48:50):
sharing common descent for a population,though were the same racial groups, same
tribe that lived many centuries in thepast. If there were kinship links within
the same king kerk. They werelargely non biological ones like maybe like kinsman
or wife or something like that.So that's really interesting. But there are
cross there are relationships between barrows,like you can get barrows next to each
(49:14):
other where the guys are related,and that's well known. But like,
yeah, they're definitely not family tombs. That's not how Indo Europeans role.
The inner Indo Anatolians must have beenpart of a CLV clin, they say.
Genetics has little to say whether withinthis COLV clin the Indo Anatolian language
was first spoken in the Caucuses endor of the client that spread into the
(49:37):
step along with the spread of Caucusesancestry or vice versa, or even if
a linguistic unity uncopled with ancestry existedwithin the CLV continuum. So there's the
origin. The pre origin of Protoin European even before Proto and Anatolian is
not shown. It can't be actuallyargued either way according to the paper.
But if you look at Lazaridis onTwitter, he's still trying to say that
(50:00):
it's south of the Causus. Butthat's not what the papers saying Dnares traced
back the ancestors of both Anatolian andIndo European speakers to the part of the
CLV cline that was north of theCausus Mountains. So the actual point of
dispersal for these languages and the geneticancestry that's in common with all the Indo
Anatolian peoples is European, bringing themnorth of the Carsus Mountains. North of
(50:25):
the Causus Mountains. There we go. We find that Central Anatolian Early Bronze
peoples who were plausibly speakers of Anatolianlanguages based on their archaeological context, were
striking genetic outliers from their neighbors dueto having a minority component of their ancestry
from the CLV plausibly from the peoplewho brought the ancestral form of Anatolian languages
to Anatolia, the majority of theirancestry from Mesopotamian Neolithic farmers, and little
(50:51):
or no ancestry from the Neolithic andCharcolithic Anatolians, who were overwhelming the sources
populations of other early Bronzes Anatolians.So this is why they support an Eastern
route for the migration of the Steppeople into Anatolia, because if they'd gone
the Western route, they wouldn't havepicked up this Mesopotamian ancestry. My counter
(51:12):
to that, and the reason whyI still think the West is that maybe
it's not very good counter. It'snot like something that you could I suppose,
it's not something I can expect youto take very seriously. But it's
basically I just think that there therecould be another explanation for that Mesopotamia ancestry
within within picked up some other way, picked up later, and that they
may have just missed the Western ancestrythat is also present. But yeah,
(51:36):
or maybe there's this combined model wherethere was a western and an eastern route.
There were an intpid group of people, those step Purders, so maybe
some went through the mountains and somewent through the Balkans. What else we
got? The archaeological, archaeologically momentousexpansion of the Kura a Raxis archaeological culture
in the Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia afterthree thousand BC may have driven a wedge
(51:59):
betwe Step and West Asian speakers ofIndo Anatoonian languages isolating them from each other
and perhaps explaining their survival in WesternAnatolianto recorded history. So this is their
attempt to explain why Anatolian languages aremore diverse in the West of Anatolia than
in the east, since their ideathat they came through the Eastwood just doesn't
work with that. So they're sayingthat's because there would have been more diversity
(52:22):
of Anatolian languages in Eastern Anatolia,but the Kura Araxis culture, which is
not Indo European, expanded and replaceda lot of the Eastern Anatolian language speakers
and that where so that meant theAnatolian language family was only given the opportunity
to flourish in the western side ofWest of Anatolia. That's their argument,
not a bad argument, And okay, I'll finish off now with their final
(52:45):
the last comment, which I reallylike, and I believe I'm going to
guess that it comes from Frinchulesa,who's a Romanian archaeologist who's one of the
people on the paper, because I'veseen him say very similar things and I
quoted him saying something very similar inmy Yamni documentary. But it says these
groups are very diverse genetically. He'stalking about the Iron Age Step peoples like
(53:07):
the Summatans and the Scuthians, whodescend of course from Yamnia, et cetera.
They're very diverse genetically, but they'recurdgans. Scattered across the Step attest
to the persistence of at least someelements of culture that began in the Caucasus
Vulgar area seven thousand years ago beforeblooming in the dnipro Don area seven thousand
years ago. But I mean,they could say that in the Ironids,
(53:29):
but they could have given a betterexample of the Anglo Saxons and Vikings who
had burial practices of the same typeover a thousand years after the Scuffians ceased
to exist. So they're that,you know, like really carried on.
Like there are Anglo Saxon burials withlike they're buried with in a barrow,
(53:50):
with grave goods with wolf teeth,like teeth, like with kenned teeth,
necklaces and pottery and grave goods andweapons. Just this is like on the
medieval era and it's carrying on somethingexisted seven thousand years ago in the Step.
But yeah, they give the examplesless extreme example of the Scuffians,
(54:12):
which is in the Iron Age.But anyway, and I think that's because
the Scuffians and the Sarmatians actually dwelledin the same region as the Yamnia had,
as the ancestors had, so they'reshown cultural continuity within the same region.
But yeah, the actual longest lastingcontinuity of that archaeological tradition is not
in the Step where it originated,but in Northern Europe among Germanic people,
(54:35):
Germanic pagans, and ended only withthe introduction of Christianity, but the into
the yam Ni cultofers. To whatsymbolic purpose did the Yamni and their precursors
erect these mounds, We may notever fully know. If they aim to
preserve the memory of those buried underthem. Of course they did. They
did achieve their goal, as theKurgrans barrows dotting the landscape of the u
(55:00):
Step drew generations of archaeologists and anthropologiststo their study and enabled the genetic reconstruction
of their maker's origins presented here.Well, if you believe in fate as
I do, and also you knowthese people worship their ancestors, like in
the European cultures worship ancestors. SoI think they had every They knew exactly
what they were doing when they werebuilding these barrows. There's a reason why
(55:21):
the barrow, I said in theScuffion documentary I made. The barrow is
the center of the world for theScuffian, I said in my documentary about
Germanic pagans like keep pushing it.The barrow is so much more than a
burial monument. It's the center.It's the place where they had their legal
assemblies. It's a place it wasthe parliament. It's the place where they
communicated with the dead through ecromantic rituals. It links the past to the future,
(55:45):
it links the living to the dead. It's the center of their legal
and religious life. And the barrowis a tradition now seven thousand years old,
and it lasted well six thousand yearsbecause it stopped about a thousand years
ago, but an impressive run.Can you think of any any other cultural
tradition of such longevity. I wantto write a book just about this barrow
(56:08):
tradition and how it symbolizes like thecore of Indo European belief and culture.
No wonder that Maria Gibutas called themthe Kurugun people. Here's another super chat
from Liquid Oxygen. Unfortunately missed thebulk of this live, but thanks for
(56:29):
covering this very interesting information Tom,and thank you Liquid. Well. I'll
finish off with one more little quotethat I think is fun, but it's
not from the paper. It's froma guy and the very popular genetics enthusiast
Davinski of Eurogenes blog, and hesays on his comments section, the only
(56:52):
reason that the South of the CaucusesIndo Anatolian hypothesis is still being considered is
because it's appealing to many people fordifferent reasons, including pure wishful thinking that
the homeland not be placed in EasternEurope. Quite so, they're going to
have to come to term to thefact that the barrow Boys were Europeans.
(57:13):
With that, I thank you allfor watching Survive the Jive Jive Talk.
Don't forget the tune in next time, Young
They've come up with a paper calledthe Genetic Origin of the Indo Europeans,
and they're walking back some of thestuff they said in a paper they released
in twenty twenty two, which Idid is drive talk on called Southern Arc
and I did a streamer on SouthernArc theory where I put forward a lot
of my objections to the claims within. I was blite about it. I
(00:42):
did think it was actually a goodpaper and interesting, but I just didn't
agree with the stuff they were saying. Some people said I was coping and
all kinds of things, but Iwasn't coping. I was right about so
much. And now I've been vindicatedby a lot of what I said in
that stream. We'll go into thattoday. There's actually been two papers,
but I can't really go over bothof them, but they both cover the
same thing, and they're both inthe same people, and the people are
(01:06):
mostly the same ones who involved inthe Southern Art thing. But it seems
to me that the named author,Lazaridas, isn't one hundred percent giving up
on his old idea, but thatthis paper, which collaborates with the Right
Lab and Rights Team collaborate with DavidAnthony, a renowned archaeologist who knows all
about in the European stuff and hasbeen saying for years and years and years
(01:29):
before the DNA stuff camp that theKurgan Steppe cultures are the origin of the
Proton European and I think his influencehas encouraged them probably to walk back some
of the rather outlandish claims about asouthern homeland south of the Caucuses for the
Proton E European languages, and doesseem that Lazaridas is the member of that
(01:49):
team who wants to hold on tothat idea. Now, I'm going to
go over what the different people claim, but I just wanted to understand that
wherever like the differ different sources comefor these step peoples, it is absolutely
unquestioned how everyone's certain that the dispersionof all Indo European languages comes from Europe,
so they dispersed out of Europe.And even if as Lazaridis is still
(02:15):
trying to cling to, like maybesome pre p Proto Indo Anatolian like ancestral
language of which we can't even reconstruct, came from outside Europe south of the
Caucasus, which I don't think istrue anyway, because it's going to come
from either from one of the huntergatherer groups that formed the Protondo European races
on the step, and that includesWestern hunder Garrises and hunder gatherers, the
(02:38):
mixed Western East and Hundergarriers of Ukrainerather and also some Caucus hunter gatherers.
But that's irrelevant really, like becausethat's not Proton to European, that's not
the ancestral language whatever. It is. The language that everyone, all the
Indo European families come from is theone that was spoken in Ukraine and that's
dispersed out of Ukraine by European group. So it's just correct to say that
(03:02):
the Proto in Europe in Proto IndoEuropean family family is a European language family
that's spread from Europe from by Europeanpeople. Yeah, there's no question of
that. So like just ignore alllike the sort of third world chauvinists who
want to want to pretend that theydon't have any you know, culture,
(03:23):
ancestral ties to Europe. Because ifyou speak and if you if you come
from an Indo European language group inIndia or Iran or wherever it is,
in the world. Ultimately it goesback to the step in Europe. Now,
if you want to know about allthis stuff, like I mean,
it all began in the eighteenth centurywith like dis a language question, and
(03:45):
then from there, like in thenineteenth century, like archaeology got involved,
and like the evidence has been gatheringup on all the different theories. And
it's actually a fascinating history of thisacademic tradition of arguing about where the homeland
is. And now obviously it's completelybeen shaken to pieces since twenty fifteen by
really strong genetic evidence that has givenlike the archaeological evidence support and showing that
(04:10):
the Kergan hypothesis which actually is firstsuggested in the nineteenth century by but there's
as an Englishman who suggested it,but I think there may have been a
Russian who suggested it even earlier.But the South Russian origin you know,
or you know is very old now, it's from the nineteenth century and it's
obviously true. Now that's what thispaper is showing. So but if you
(04:30):
want to know about that, Ican recommend a book that would be worth
read, and it's basically that Alande Benoir, the Indo Europeans In Search
of the Homeland is a book whichgoes over all that basically the history of
this academic argument. But if youhaven't got time to read it, which
(04:55):
a lot of people don't these days, especially since it's like going over like
the arguments that are now mostly provenwrong by different peoples, you can get
a quick version of it, likefrom a website I love called Legian.
Legion is kind of like a nonwoke version of Blinkist. And if you
don't know what that means, well, it's a condensed version of books.
(05:16):
It's got all. If you geta subscription as this website, you get
all different books, nonfiction books condensedinto much more manageable and quick versions.
So nonfiction books consists of twenty percentnew info and about eighty percent known info,
and you only really want to knowwhat the original information is, so
this just gets to the meat ofthe matter. Furthermore, there's so much
information out there, so this islike a pre selection of well curated content,
(05:43):
so you're going to get good books, access to good books, and
not woke books. Because the peoplewho run this are like proper academic minded
people, and Legent really shined throughinnocence because it gives you essential new original
ideas as well as like other traditionalacademic ideas that have fallen out of fashion,
and that fresh info from the newfrom the books condensed into twenty five
(06:06):
minutes or less, so you canget a crash course in the history of
the Indo European research from pre geneticera, you know, of the like
over one hundred years of academia intwenty five minutes. So you can listen
like as as a podcast kind ofthing, or like listen to it spoken,
or you can read it if youprefer, or you can do both
(06:26):
at the same time to help youabsorb the information. If you don't like
the service is a seven day moneyback guarantee, so it's really you know
what's what's said to lose. It'sbrand new service run out of Germany.
But I really recommend it. Andnow here's the paper, the genetic origin
of the Indo Europeans, and there'sa lot of authors on there. Lazaridis
(06:48):
is the first, David Anthony isthe third, and he I think is
a guy pushing things in the rightdirection. Rights put himself at the end,
but he's obviously this is huge discoveriesin the world of Proton to European
orients. And it's kind of reaffirmingwhat the first like big Genetic paper were
saying in twenty fifteen that the stepand the Yamnia are very crucial for understanding
(07:09):
it. But previously only enthusiasts onthe Internet like myself, have been trying
to say that. Please look atShredney Stogg. Sredney'stog is ancestral to Yamni
in all probability, it's older thanYamni, is certainly archaeologically ancestral, and
like has influence on Yamnia. It'sthe same like general genetic group, it's
(07:30):
the same region, it's got manyof the same customs. It's obviously going
to be because Yamni it's too lateto be early Proton to European, so
it's got to be something a bitearlier, and that is Sredney Stogg.
And if you want to have likea Proto Anatolian language with Proto Indo European
as a separate branch from Anatolian,fine, you can just say Stog's that
too. So I'm a big Stogadvocate and have been for years now,
(07:54):
and this paper finally looks properly atsredney'stog as a major candidate, and as
a result we make some great progress. Now, yeah, and as I
said before, many of my complaintsabout the Southern arc theory from my line's
stream in August twenty twenty two havebeen vindicated. You can go back and
watch that stream. The paper focusesnow on three different genetic clines. Now
(08:20):
I'll try and show you what CLINmeans, because it refers to a PCA,
a principal component analysis chart, whichplots data in a kind of way
that you would see this sort ofthing happening. Now, each dot is
a specific in the stample, anancient sample, and you can see from
(08:45):
the way to distributed how they're relatedto each other, and they can form
clusters, which means they're all geneticallysimilar, and they can form clus and
then between clusters you can get likea cline showing that like the different far
Park clusters have intermediate populations who arelinking them, they're related to both sides
(09:05):
of the clime, and that showsthat there's gene flow going along those clines,
like up and down, up anddown, like this one of them
is called the Vulgar cline. Theystart off with saying, like I should
say, they've got this thing CLV. So CLV is where they're saying the
real core Indo European race, ifnot language as well, but they think
(09:28):
language too is formed. But CLVmeans causes lower Vulgar. Then the Vulgar
is an important river that goes it'sreally long, and it goes all the
way from the Caspian. It emptiesinto the Caspian, but it starts all
the way up here, way outby, way out by, like you
(09:50):
know, as far north as Latvia, up in northern Russia. So it
links northern Europe with not only withlike the Causes, but it's been a
way for like the Vikings for example, to trained with people in the Middle
East. So it's really linking thefar north of the human world with the
with the with the major Mesopotamian civilization. So it's a big it's very long.
Now the CLV they're talking about llower Volga. So this area down
(10:13):
here and where it matches up withthe Caucasus, now that's actually the map
doesn't show. That's actually a hugearea with lots of diversity in it.
Of course the Caucasus are dominated bythe HD signal of Caucus hunter gatherer,
where was a further up the Vulgaryou go, the more eastern hunter gatherer
you get, which is a moreEuropoid type, very robust. But there's
(10:37):
also in this other map I wantedyou to see many other huge river systems.
In the western step the don actuallynow connected to the Vulgar of the
canal comes down here, then tothe west of the Donnets and then the
Nipa, which they use in thenew paper. Now instead of they're using
like Ukrainian words whenever there's a thingin Ukraine, even though the convention in
(11:00):
English is to use the Russian becauseof the influence of Soviet archaeology. So
I say things like like I've alwayssaid niper and shredney Stock, they're calling
Stich. I think I don't haveto pronounce Ukrainian. I think that's how
so is sredney Stock and dnipro andbecomes there. So yeah, it's a
(11:20):
little bit confusing it because that's theconvention in England has been used Russian.
But because of the situation with thewar, they're being a bit sensitive to
the feelings of Ukrainian people. Soyeah, then the bug and the Denista.
Now the river systems. Prior tothe invention of step parstialism, the
the habitation of the Step was verymuch concentrated on the rivers. You didn't
(11:43):
have like lots of hunter gatherers likeout on the Step and the the the
intervention the introduction of wagons and cattleand domestication of horses by Sredney Stog by
the way, because the earliest horseriding evidence is not Yamni, it's Streadney
Stock to spreadny Stock were the firstto ride horses, and that just opens
(12:05):
up the steps, so they're nolonger tied to these rivers. But the
fact that the clines that these peoplethat this paper identifies relative to rivers is
important because it's actually the rivers werethe like the Nile in Egypt. Like
everyone was living along the Nile inEgypt. Now, the Step was not
an easy place to live for ahunter gatherer before, but once you have
(12:28):
partialism, the Step suddenly becomes thislush ocean of fodder to feed your cattle
and make food and make that dairyinstead of just basically a grassy desert.
So here's the caucus's lower Vulgar climb. At the bottom of it, you've
got chg here and then at thebottom on the other side of the caucases
after a gap, you've got MesopotamianMiddle Eastern peoples, Anatolian European farmers from
(12:54):
the other side of Anatolia who enteredAnatolia from the Western Antolia. So the
other client, the client climb.At the top of the caucus lower Vulgar
clin, you've got the lower Vulgarpeople who are close to the Yamnia.
So this red group here is Yamnia, and there's this new group BP group
(13:15):
here, which are very important.Now I'm probably ancestral to Yamnia because they're
so close to Yamnia as you cansee, although there might there's some disagreement
on this, but anyway, thenext client you've got is the DNEPRO client
up the DNEPA and the NEPA endswith one end you've got these like people
with on the European end of thecaucus is lower Vulgar clin who have less
(13:39):
hg Aka the yam Night end andthe yam Night on a cline also with
going towards UNHG, who are huntergatherers from Ukraine nearly the Ukraine, who
are a mixture of Western hunter gatherersfrom Western Europe and Eastern hunter gatherers from
Eastern Europe. Whereas there's another clienton the Vulgar going up from the lower
(14:01):
Vulgar to the upper Vulgar, whereyou get more and more EHG because up
the top of the Vulgar in Russiathere's no Western under gatherer at that time.
It's just more pure EHG. Sothere's these clins by the rivers.
It's a little bit convoluted, butthat's what they base that. That's how
you've got to understand it. It'sall about this river systems. So the
(14:22):
Shredney's Dog is identified as being ancestralto Yamnia, as I've said it is
for a long time, and alsoas having more ancestry from the Western neper
Climb which includes the whg admixture.And we also now know from the paper
as I said that Anatolians, becausepreviously said the step can't be the original
(14:45):
protect although all all in the Europeanspeakers in the world, in Asia and
Europe all descend from these step perdaslike like Yamna. The Anatolian speakers don't.
So that's why they made up allthis stuff in twenty twenty two about
there was an earlier protoind Anatolian languagewhich was spoken by people who weren't the
Step group. And then the stepgroup is just the Proton and the European
(15:07):
breakoff of that and the original Protonthat Anatolians were just like a more an
unsampled Armenian population with like very COHDlike ancestry but not HD. Well,
well now we know that the centralAnatolian Hittites did have ancestry from what's probably
sredney'stog or yam Nya they say,But yeah, I'd say likely, said
Fredney Stogg. In my opinion,the Southern arch hypothesis as it was previously
(15:31):
presented in twenty twenty two is nolonger tenable, and the step hypothesis is
proven. Not only, I meanit was never They were never denying the
step hypothesis as the step as themain vector of all in the European languages,
but they were trying to exclude Anatolinand that's no longer possible. So
now all Indo European language groups areSTEP mediated. There's no question of that.
But there's an apparent disagreement between contributingauthors and David Anty's a STEP advocate.
(15:56):
But the named author, Joseph Lazarida, is still maintains and he's talking
about this more on Twitter rather thanthe paper. But he's going on Twitter,
you know, still trying to pushhis you know, Bernie can still
win. The ultimate origin is fromthe south, he thinks, And although
that this paper isn't really presenting thatas the most likely scenario, it's still
there as an option, but he'sreally pushing like this Mesopotamian's something with a
(16:21):
Suma cliin that isn't there really,I mean, the lower vulgar clin I
guess does go towards Mesopotamia, butyou know, there ain't no cure for
the Suma Klein blues. That paperis also showing that Yamnaia descend directly.
I said that ya Yamni descend directlyfrom Stredney Stog the corded where origin is
(16:42):
not shown in this paper. It'sstill unknown, but it's like I think
it's still likely Shredney Stog and ShredneyStog had variable ancestry, so they're not
all the same as you can seeon the nepro cline as a spread.
But Lazaridis on Twitter is still claiming, as he had for a while that
based on mainly on a few differentthings, but mainly on IBD descent identity
(17:04):
by descent sharing, the length ofthe segments that are shared, that the
corded Where culture is not a cousinof Yamni, but a daughter, a
son of Yamna, daughter of Yamnahand direct, even though the hy lineages
are not supportive of that. Sohe's saying that's just because corded Where comes
from like a previously like peasant Yamniapopulation, like the class of Yamnia who
(17:29):
had an uprising and then took over. Because that's why R and A is
not dominant in Yamnia but is verydominant in corded Where. So yeah,
I think that's just not good enough. Really, I'm still thinking it's possible,
it's not proven. I think theorigin there's absolutely no question. Now,
if Yamna comes from Stredney's dog,then Cordedware comes from stredny Stock as
(17:51):
well, Because wasn't what the onlyquestion is is corded whare directly from Fredney's
dog or is it via Yamnia oris it some kind of combination, Like
there was a breakoff from swredney'stog andthen there were some yam Ni descendants who
merged with that breakoff, and that'swhy it would be a little bit more
complicated. But you know, they'reall roughly the same race in the sense
they're all that same group accorded whereBellbeaker, Yamnia, Sudney Stog. They
(18:17):
show that Yamnai is not just amix of a CHG mixed middle down population
with an additional influx of CHG likepopulation as previously claimed, and that additional
influx, they were claiming it includeda levantine portion. This is what they're
saying in twenty twenty two, andI was just like, no one could,
(18:37):
no one else was coming up withthese models. It was a bit
weird. I mean, there wasthe same their models weren't reliable one hundred
percent because they were saying that youcan't model Anatolians with step ancestry. But
now they're saying, actually you can, which is what everyone, like the
amateurs were all telling them, likeyou can, you can look, you
can, you can model Hittites withstep ancestry, but that yam Nia.
They say that Yamni had now they'dhave early European farmer admixture from Europe,
(19:03):
as many amateurs have been saying,And in my Yamna documentary, I said,
you can't just model Yamnia as HGplus EHG. You've got to include
a Western source as well of Europeanfarmers with a little bit of Western hunter
gatherer which I mean the wester hundergatherer can be from this Ukraine Neolithic hunter
(19:26):
gatherers which have Western hunder gathered client. But yeah, they've got to have
a bit of Anatolian Western Anatolian in. They also say Yamnia has additional Siberian
sourced via the Vulgar, a huntergatherer admixture on top of the Don the
Don mediated EHG and HG river Don. This like a Central Asian sauce from
(19:51):
coming down the Vulgar with extra extralike they're calling it Central Asian origin,
but another sort of basically of extraEHG like stuff or extra ancient North Eurasian
ancestry as well coming in via Siberiaat some point like ancient Siberia. Yeah,
they saying remont Noua, and likeMycop were buried in Kurgans. That's
(20:14):
the Kirgan burial right was widespread seventhousand years ago among people of diverse ancestry
from both edges and middle of theCLV, client, suggesting that regardless of
his ultimate origin and whether it wasculturally adopted or spread by migration, it
was common among people of the CLV. In contrast, a distinctive position of
body on the back with knees raisedand the floor of the barrel pit covered
(20:36):
with red ocha was shared by allthe step groups, including Stradney's doog On
groups on the Vulgar c line andRemonteneua, while the Mycop burial position was
contract contacted on one side by theIndo European burials that we take like we
associate with Indo Europeans, like thecultures for long time after this going well
well well after the step includes fromdifferent groups on the step that were drawn
(21:02):
together, and that includes the redochre, some of the pits and the
knees raised and grave goods and abarrow or kuragan as they say, and
it's a Turkic word used in Russia. But I think you just usue an
Indo European word like barrow, sincethey're Indo European people, so barrows definitely
(21:22):
a good sign. But yeah,it's not clear how those come together yet.
From these they also say there isevidence of some late CHG flow,
like the time they were talking aboutbefore, which they were calling levantine like
DNA, which is like one percentlevantine or something, the way they modeled
it, which was I think wrong, which they're calling now ak Nashan like,
(21:45):
which is an Armenian population, andthey're finding death in Yamnia, some
Yamnia which would support Southern arc.But it isn't at all viable as a
candidate for Proto Indo Anatolian or ProtoIndo Europeans. It's the common ancestry for
Proto Indo Anatolian is now shown.Let's talking about it being CLV. So
the common ancestry you find in allthe Indo European cultures archaeologically now is CLV,
(22:11):
not this acnationhanlike thing so which isfound in some groups on the step.
Because not all population movements cause languagechanges, there was a quite complicated
mixture of peoples on that region becauseit's like an intersection of rivers the edge
of a mountain range that separates Europefrom the Middle East. So of course
you're going to get occasional admixture fromone to the other, but not all
(22:33):
of them are going to be causingthings. And certainly I don't think this
act nation like ancestry could be thesource of all these huge changes, because
there's no evidence of an act nationlike archaeological influence on these cultures that are
going to be responsible for Indo Europeans. The Yamnaya trace the majority of their
ancestry to a progress to related populationwhich they call BP group, whose habitation
(22:57):
range spanned from the Lower Vulgar tothe North Caucuses the CLV region, and
the newly identified BP group descended fromEast European hunting gatherers and HG and the
ancient North Eurasian population in Central Asia. So that's where the yam I are
(23:18):
getting that extra A and e ancestryfarm because it's in the BP group already.
The paper models so called kor Yamnaiaas Stredney Stog plus Remontenia. But
I have some some of my amateurcolleague, and my colleagues are the amateur
enthusiasts of genetics like myself, prefera simpler model, which we feel is
more evidence archaeologically to support it.That kor Yamnaya as they're calling it in
(23:44):
this paper is just the BP groupwith extra European farmer and Ukraineolithic hunger gatherer
shifting it to the west. Likeon like I showed you like here,
look there Yamnia and the red there'sthe BP group, these green circles here.
And if you get that green groupand it gets a little bit of
(24:08):
you know, something to the west, I mean it could be Shredney's starg
it could be something yeah, likea little bit of Ukrainianlythic Hundagaa, but
that would it's gone down a bitfurther as well to make it a bit
southern. So yeah, it's it'sat the intersection of these clients. So
anyway, the Hittites were successfully modeledas having eight to ten percent Yamnia or
(24:33):
Sredney stock ancestry, which is that'senough to you know, for an elite
dominance model to explain how Anatolian languagescame in in you know, like your
elite dominance model means something like notlike Anglo Saxons as such, more like
the Norman conquest, something like thathappened in Anatolia, confirming that Indo European
(24:56):
Anatonian languages originated in the Step,and we can model we can model the
Step ancestry in Anatolia as Sredney Stog, so in which case we can just
go ahead and call Sredney Stog protoIndo Anatolian. In my opinion, I
don't think the paper says this,but yeah that I think you can just
go ahead. Early Shredney Stog couldbe proto Nanaatolian. Late Sredney Stog is
(25:21):
Proto and European, and then Yamnayais late Proto Indo European. Nice and
simple. That's what I would say. They don't say that, though,
But they've got like four proposed hypotheseshypotheses hypotheses for the Proto Indo Anatolian annoying,
stupid way of saying a European languageto refer to India and Anatolia for
(25:44):
a language that comes from Europe.But yeah, that's what it's called the
origin of this language family. It'sthey've got like A B and C and
there's two types of a A Eastand a West. Let me just show
you the graphic it for this.It's quite interesting. Two tell me in
the comments as well which one youthink is the best. So you've got
(26:10):
me. I'm one hundred percent aWest. So this is about how it
got there. The paper does notand Lazar readus as well as saying on
like, there's not the genetic evidenceis not in favor of a West.
He says, but you can showand not in the paper doesn't go into
this, but you can show howShredney Stog ancestry goes from Swidney stock here
(26:32):
into a series of different archaeological culturesdown the Balkans that's been demonstrated in genetics,
and then into the Istanbul Kurgans.There's some Kurgans by Istanbul and the
Bosphorus near the Bosporus, and that'sall in the timeline for the Anatolian languages.
So that would explain how that ancestrygot there. But the paper doesn't
(26:56):
support that. They're much more goingfor hypothesis East, where instead the ancestry
that the step people somehow came intoover the corpses, mixed with the Mesopotamian
like people and then went westward intoAnatolia. The merits of each theory is
(27:21):
that, well, the west onehas some genetic evidence of striddenly stock ancestry
going westward through the Balkans, andthere's also good archaeological evidence for that as
well. And also the diversity ofAnatolian languages is greater in the west,
so you expect that to mean thewest side of Anatolia is the origin because
there's not so much on the east. But they do have a pretty good
(27:41):
argument to support their eastern thing,which is based on the fact that their
central Anatolian like samples of Hittite peopledominated by all have Mesopotamian ancestry and are
lacking in are like extra European ancestrythat the serdainly dog would have picked up
(28:04):
going via the Bulkans. And thisis why Lazaridis says he doesn't support a
west But yeah, it's still Imean, they missed modeled Anatolia completely is
having no step before now they're sayingit does have up to ten percent steps,
So I'm not sure if I'd saythat they're just missing I mean also,
remember in twenty eighteen they were sayingthere's no there's no European farmer ancestry
(28:30):
in Indian people with Step ancestry,so it's like it can't be from a
Step source with European ancy. Butthen they retracted that actually there is European
farmer ancestry, So yeah, itwas Andronovo. It's the source of the
Aryans in India. But sometimes theymake a mistake like that, so it's
possible. I think they're just missingsomething, and there is extra Western ancestry
(28:51):
in the Anatolians, so that theA West theory works. But maybe there's
a combined theory. I know somepeople who are telling me that is evidence
of and I don't know about this, but there's an archaeological argument as well.
I don't understand yet about some kindof diffusion from this Step into the
Armenia, which would be maybe asource for a hypothesis A East hypothesis B
(29:15):
and C are basically variants of theirold twenty twenty two ideas about southern arc,
which is that okay, so Ais that like proto in Anatolian is
an Armenian or Anatolian language, andthat the proto in the European languages just
went up over the Caucuses and that'swhere all proto the European languages come from,
(29:38):
except the Anatolians, which went fromArmenia into Anatolia, and that was
what they were pushing before. ButI don't it just doesn't work now because
we know that the Anatolians have stepancestry from north, so they should just
abandon that. And then there's thishypothesis C, which is like a mixed
version of it, which has liketwo versions of protoined anatoli on one above
(30:02):
the north and one above the Carpusesand one below. So yeah, pretty
convoluted. But I'd say, yeah, I'm all a west. What do
you guys think. I'll look inthe comments for a bit and then I
will Ian gets five dollars. Whatdo you think of the Anatolian Indo European
(30:22):
language not sharing words for cart andhorse or having the same grammar. I
don't actually have great knowledge of Anatolianlanguage vocabulary. Yeah, they obviously,
it's quite clear in my opinion thatAnatolian languages broke off at a very early
date. Everyone agrees on that forthe linguistic argument, but also the like
in terms of like the archaic natureof the Anatolian languages, but also just
(30:44):
like the vocabulary is missing some ofthe things. It came off at a
time when the speakers were still quiteprimitive. And that's another thing like people
don't understand because like Chg are relatedas a population Iran Theolithic, but around
Theolithic, it is not the samerace or Culturechg are very primitive hunder gatherer
(31:06):
people and they have like you know, quite robust skulls as well, not
like around Theolithic and like that arefarming people, so they're more like Anatolian
farmers in that sense. They're goingto be more gracile, and they have
like settled communities. Like the CHGstuff on the step is not all You
shouldn't think of it as influenced froma southern civilization, as they were trying
(31:29):
to argue before. It's influenced froma Southern population who were no less primitive
than the other hunter gatherers on thestep in most cases, but there might
be later integrations to people from thesouth who are connected to civilized Mesopotamia cultures
as well. But yeah, chgare like just another robust skull. Primitive
(31:52):
people farming ruined us. Someone saysSeamus says God or gods be with the
days when Grecian autism would continue interpretWest Eurasian arcade in progression and even African
genetics papers loll okay. I thinkhe's referring to the fact that Lazaridis is
(32:16):
Greek. James Melly five pounds,Thank you both. Thank you both Seamus
and James. They model Yamnai equalsSredney Stog plus CLV. I believe there
is a critical CLV pop in KalnikiVolga Delta. Ludovic Orlando models wild Dom
(32:39):
two horse ancestors here. So butin case you're not aware, the Dom
two horses are the first domestic horsesfrom which all the world's domestic horses descend
subsequently or history, and they werefirst domesticated by Shredney Stog people. So
(33:00):
if this Orlando is saying that domtout, the wild ancestors of all of
dom Tu came from that region,then it would support the idea that there's
a critical population in that region ofkalm Nikia. But I don't know.
In the Volga del To you sayinginteresting. Thank you for that comment,
James. Here is an interesting model, not by it from the paper,
(33:22):
but done by an amateur enthusiast onthe Internet called fool Tide, and he
is using the Haa duo to modelUkraine. He's saying that the here's got
the ak nation from Armenia that they'resaying is so important. But he's just
pointing out that it isn't because thisKalmiki Russia, Kalmikia yamna zero, Kazakhstan
(33:47):
yamna zero, Russia Samara yamna zero, Ukraine early Bronze age jam now zero
and then one Russia causes and rightnext to the right, next to Caucus
Mountains in the early Bronze age threepercent. So you're not there's not a
good reason to say Akna Shan isimportant, or that like anything from the
(34:08):
south of the Caucuses is important tounderstanding these the Proto and Europeans. I
really don't think the Southern ideas havegot any like merit. I've got the
feeling that Lazaridis is still going tocling to them for a bit, but
I don't think his colleagues agree withhim. But we'll see, we'll see
here's some of the other archaeological culturesinvolved before three thousand BC. So Europe
(34:35):
has here the globular amphoraiculture, whichwould be crucial for the formation of corded
ware. When the Yamni move westand then down here you've got the my
Cop important southern culture on the edgeof the Yamnai land. Yamni are them
dominating the steppe. Comed were peopleup north and there's yeah saying my Cops
(34:55):
sphere of influence and the gag sphereof influence. So the Yamni in between
the settled spheres of influence of theglobraandphora and the Mycop and they're claiming maybe
that Yamni had an intermediary role,I guess from that map. But Kukatanny
Trapilia is also extremely important and arenot on that map for some reason,
and they are in there as well. I'm not sure why they didn't put
(35:20):
them on the map. And Katakum, here's a later after three thousand BC.
Katakum culture is just a late formof Yamnia variant. It's only it's
not different in the genetic sense.It's just it's the core area of the
Yamna culture. Has this variant burialcalled Katacumb culture because Yamni means pit,
but some of them developed their pitsinto katakums, hence Katakumb culture, and
(35:44):
they are the origin of the Greeks. Pretty sure that's the case. The
movement into Greece that formed the Greeklanguage came from the Katakumb culture because Katakum
culture also had things like death masks, which you can see in the early
Mycennian beautiful gold masks. Everyone knowsabout. Those are probably a development of
that earlier katacomb culture death mask.I'd also like to say that there are
(36:07):
some interesting haplogroup information. There's someinteresting Happler group information to talk about.
One hundred and eighty one new Yamnayasamples all mostly R one B, the
same variant which is not common inWestern Europe. Now it's a kind that's
found mostly only in the Middle East, but that was Armenians often habit because
(36:29):
Armenian Armenian languages come directly from yamNya. But that one hundred and twenty
five have one B variants. Butthe next biggest one after one B is
I two lineages which are associated withWHG Western under gatherers, which is very
interesting. And I've also shared recentlyon my social media that some of the
(36:53):
elite burials associated with the late Serdney'sdog culture carrying WHG lineages. I two
origin lineages, subclades. That's veryinteresting. It doesn't take say it don't
take it too far and say oh, that means that we can't take it
too far and say oh the WHGdominated Yamna. I don't think that there's
(37:15):
nothing the case like that. That'sjust that's not what I'm saying. But
it does so that like this patriarchalculture had paternal it's paternal origins of many
of the elite burials. At theearly stage the elite male had their ultimate
origin in Western hunter gatherers, whichdoesn't prove but makes suggested. It is
(37:37):
possible that the ancestral language of Protoand Anatolian came from Western hundter gatherers.
And then all the people are certainlike Western like some European chovenists I argued
with who were saying that European orin the European languages come from Western European
hunder gatherers. I said, someonesaid something said that to me I thought
(37:58):
it was ridiculous saying that in seventeen, but they might actually be right,
but it's impossible to know. We'llnever know the answers to that, because
you're talking beyond actually a reconstructible language. Now you can't really reconstruct any language
earlier in Indo European or Indo Anatolian, so it's all completely speculative at that
stage. There are also three Rone a samples among the yam Nya,
(38:23):
which is interesting because Yamnia. Thatshows that Yamnia did possess like there are
some Yamnia who had the R onea which later became the Happer group of
the recorded were So that would supportI suppose Las Readers's idea that he claims
on Twitter that they were a lowerlike sort of less powerful tribe within this
(38:46):
cultural sphere who later rose to prominenceand displaced previous elites. And there are
also a few Q one a andQ one B lineages which have their origin
on Siberia for the north, andthat'll be mediated via the EHG. So
yeah, so the R one B, the R one a and the Q
(39:07):
one and the Q one b,those are all being mediated ultimately by EHG,
So that's an argument that the predecessorof this language family is EHG origin,
whereas the I two is an argumentthat it could be Western hunder Gathered
origin. But there are also avery small minority of j derived ones from
(39:28):
the Caucuses which would which could beused to argue for as readers's preferred idea
that they come from the south ofthe causes. But going by numbers,
it looks like the R one Band the I two are the ones to
look out for most. But yeah, now some of these samples four I
think four of the R one Bsamples are not the R one B we
(39:51):
normally associate with Yamnaya and now now, as I said, associated with Armenians.
But it's the R and B Lfive one Hackler group, supposedly,
I've told and I can find oneof them is I eleven eight three eight.
Let me see if I can findit here. It is from the
Russian Vulgar Early Bronze Age L fiveto one. Here you go r L
(40:13):
five to one, r L fiveone, r L five to one.
These ones Vulgar Early Bronze Age,Romania, Russia, Kalmikia and Russia.
Don those all carry the L fiveone which is associated now with Western Europeans.
That's the Happler group that dominates that, the subclade that became the dominant
happer group of Western Europe. It'slike found It's it's one that came into
(40:37):
Rome, bringing e European Indo Europeanlanguages to Italy, to Britain. It's
the one associated with the Celts,with the with It's one that's present among
Germanic people. It's the one that'spresent in Iberia when the Bellbeakers came into
Iberia. So it's the it's theEuropean. It's the one that defines Europeans
most clearly, especially Western Europeans,because Eastern Europeans are more r one A
based. But that's very interesting.So the fact that that's present in Yamni
(41:01):
as well also is interesting. ButI don't know if it's an ancestral subclade
exactly, So it doesn't actually provethat bell Peaker is anwer yam Night is
ancestral to Bellbeaker. It's still notcertain that bell Beaker and corded ware.
Because bell Beaker comes from corded ware, we know that, but whether corded
ware came directly out of Yamni.Still I'm still I'm still not I'm open
(41:22):
to it being either as Lazarita's claimsthat Yamni is descended from Cordyway is descended
from Yamni, or as eurogenes.David Ski David wool and Ski has said
that it's not their both sister,their brother and sister or whatever, and
they both come from their brothers andthey come from certainly stock. But we'll
(41:49):
see, we'll see that will That'sa question that will be answered, I'm
sure as more data comes out.But yeah, and they're spread those are
spread out quite a lot from Yeah, like, oh sorry, I just
realized I've still got the spinning blokes. Let me just get rid of them
so you can see what I'm talkingabout. Here, Look, you got
this one has L five one.Im mind the way here I go.
(42:15):
This one has L five to one. This one in Romania has L five
to one, this one Kalmukia hasL five to one. And this one
from the don early Bronze age orYamnaya. Very very interesting. So this
Happer group information is fantastic. Butwhat really surprised me is that I too
is such a dominant thing, likeit's the later Indo European happy groups is
(42:35):
really really important. The one A, I mean, the two most successful
Indo European happ groups are this Lfive to one OL one B, which
is thanks to the Bell Beekers andA happy groups is all thanks accorded where.
But in the early Bronze agam Nya, those ones are very minor,
they're not important at all. AndI too is important, which is not
even like really associated within the Europeansnormally when people talk about it, because
(42:58):
it's a whg one. And italso associated very much with the megalith culture
in Western Europe because, as Isaid in my documentary about the origin of
the Megaliths and the Megalthic people innorthwestern France, it became dominant among the
Anatolian immigrants who mixed with the Westernhander gatherers there, and I too lineages
became very common all around Western Europe, from Spain up into Scotland. It
(43:23):
was I two dominated, but notthe same I two that you see here
in the yam Nya and the Stredney'sDog. But what a turnout for the
books. You know, you knowit ain't over till the Fat Lady sings.
There's so much interesting stuff that Ididn't know it was going to come
out. Maybe I'll read some ofthese other quotes that I got. Here's
(43:45):
one of more western origin of thecore yam NYA would also bring their latest
ancestors in proximity to the place oforigin of the corded ware complex, whose
origin is itself in question, butmust have certainly been in the area of
central eastern Europe occupied by the globularaphoriculture west of the core Yamnia. The
(44:06):
corded were population, which would tracea large part of his ancestry to the
Yamnia, was formed by admixture concurrentwith the Yamnia expansion. So here you
go, trace a large part ofhis ancestry to the Aamnia. They say
based on another paper which made thatclaim based on IBD descent, which is
not conclusive really, but yeah,I wouldn't be surprised if there was some
(44:28):
more complicated scenario going on. COLV. Klein people migrate, we provoke here
we've proposed the following hypothesis that COLVClin people migrated southwards around four four hundred
BC, or about a millennium beforethe appearance of the Yamnia admixing with different
(44:51):
substrating populations along the way and thenwestwards before finally reaching central Anatolia. So
they're not saying Yamnaia is the sourceof step ancestry and anato earlier is something
before Yamnaya Shredney stock. We infact find why chromosome evidence that is consistent
with the autozome evidence. Sporadic instancesof the step associated why chromozoon HAPPCAZU are
(45:14):
the one six three six in WestAsia, occurred at Arskal and Tepe in
Eastern Anatolia, and Klavan in Armeniain the early Bronze Age among individuals without
detectable step ancestry hmm, sudney stockto Yamni are the transition the growth from
(45:34):
effective under Yeah. So the sayingis just a few thousand people, not
a lot of people. These intervalthe Sudney stock were largely formed by admixture
before four thousand BC six thousand yearsago, likely somewhere within the geographic span
of the nipro donkline. The geographicalhomans of the quarded ware and Yamnai would
conceive of being geographical proximity allow forthe synchronous emergence and shared ancestry that Deprodne
(46:00):
area of the Sredney Stog culture fitsthe genetic data data as it explains the
ancestry of the nacent core Yamni andplaces them in precisely the area from which
both Corded were and Southeastern European Yamnaiin the west and the don Yamni in
the east could have emerged by admixtureof the core Yamnia with European farmers and
(46:20):
Unhg respectively. That sounds good.A recent study proposed a much deeper origin.
They're talking about the of I,indoanatolian I languages. They're talking about
hegety in Colleagues to six thousand BC, seven thousand years ago, or about
two millennia older than our reconstruction andthe consensus of other linguistic studies. It's
(46:40):
very important to understand that heget andColleagues is it's a very very very novel
language model which is completely out ofsync with all other language models, and
it's an experimental method, and itdeliberately excludes all genetic and archaeological data from
its calculations and only then attempted tofit them with that after having come up
(47:04):
with a model. So it shouldn'tbe used. It should be only it
should it should be ignored in myopinion, but I mean, you're gonna
look at it. It should betaken as with a big pinch of salt.
Peggoty and Collins is very It justdoesn't match up anything. So yeah,
the technical reasons for these older dateswill doubtlessly be debated by linguists.
From the point of view of archaeogenetics, we point out that the post three
(47:25):
thousand BC genetic transformation of Europe bycorded Were and Beaker cultures on the heels
of the Amnar expansion is hard toreconcile with linguistic linguistic split times of European
languages consistently and less than four thousandBC, as no made greater than for
them. There's no major pan Europeanarchaeological or migratory phenomena that are tied to
(47:46):
the postulated South Caucuses Indo Anatolian homelandaround six thousand BC can be discerned.
So yeah, the Hegot thing isjust not good timeline. It doesn't work.
These findings disprove theories that Kirgan Oh. They also found this is interesting,
the genetic relationship between people in Kurgancemeteries like Barrissed cemeteries, disproved theories
(48:07):
that Kirgan's were family tombs like whenwe see and it compares them here to
the Neolithic tombs that you see inlike that start in Brittany. And then
they specifically give the example of theones in Hazelton Long Barrow in England and
the Neolithic tombs in Ireland because thoseare well sampled genetically, whereas the ones
in France, the first ones inFrance actually whereas originate, are not well
(48:29):
sampled, which is because of theFrench being weird. But yeah, those
are all like quite closely related peoplein those tombs, and sometimes the tomb
it's one tomb contains many generations ofa family. That's not what in the
Europeans were like at all, andthese were not family tomb. Instead,
the Kirgan cemeteries largely included individuals thatwere biological kin only in the sense of
(48:50):
sharing common descent for a population,though were the same racial groups, same
tribe that lived many centuries in thepast. If there were kinship links within
the same king kerk. They werelargely non biological ones like maybe like kinsman
or wife or something like that.So that's really interesting. But there are
cross there are relationships between barrows,like you can get barrows next to each
(49:14):
other where the guys are related,and that's well known. But like,
yeah, they're definitely not family tombs. That's not how Indo Europeans role.
The inner Indo Anatolians must have beenpart of a CLV clin, they say.
Genetics has little to say whether withinthis COLV clin the Indo Anatolian language
was first spoken in the Caucuses endor of the client that spread into the
(49:37):
step along with the spread of Caucusesancestry or vice versa, or even if
a linguistic unity uncopled with ancestry existedwithin the CLV continuum. So there's the
origin. The pre origin of Protoin European even before Proto and Anatolian is
not shown. It can't be actuallyargued either way according to the paper.
But if you look at Lazaridis onTwitter, he's still trying to say that
(50:00):
it's south of the Causus. Butthat's not what the papers saying Dnares traced
back the ancestors of both Anatolian andIndo European speakers to the part of the
CLV cline that was north of theCausus Mountains. So the actual point of
dispersal for these languages and the geneticancestry that's in common with all the Indo
Anatolian peoples is European, bringing themnorth of the Carsus Mountains. North of
(50:25):
the Causus Mountains. There we go. We find that Central Anatolian Early Bronze
peoples who were plausibly speakers of Anatolianlanguages based on their archaeological context, were
striking genetic outliers from their neighbors dueto having a minority component of their ancestry
from the CLV plausibly from the peoplewho brought the ancestral form of Anatolian languages
to Anatolia, the majority of theirancestry from Mesopotamian Neolithic farmers, and little
(50:51):
or no ancestry from the Neolithic andCharcolithic Anatolians, who were overwhelming the sources
populations of other early Bronzes Anatolians.So this is why they support an Eastern
route for the migration of the Steppeople into Anatolia, because if they'd gone
the Western route, they wouldn't havepicked up this Mesopotamian ancestry. My counter
(51:12):
to that, and the reason whyI still think the West is that maybe
it's not very good counter. It'snot like something that you could I suppose,
it's not something I can expect youto take very seriously. But it's
basically I just think that there therecould be another explanation for that Mesopotamia ancestry
within within picked up some other way, picked up later, and that they
may have just missed the Western ancestrythat is also present. But yeah,
(51:36):
or maybe there's this combined model wherethere was a western and an eastern route.
There were an intpid group of people, those step Purders, so maybe
some went through the mountains and somewent through the Balkans. What else we
got? The archaeological, archaeologically momentousexpansion of the Kura a Raxis archaeological culture
in the Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia afterthree thousand BC may have driven a wedge
(51:59):
betwe Step and West Asian speakers ofIndo Anatoonian languages isolating them from each other
and perhaps explaining their survival in WesternAnatolianto recorded history. So this is their
attempt to explain why Anatolian languages aremore diverse in the West of Anatolia than
in the east, since their ideathat they came through the Eastwood just doesn't
work with that. So they're sayingthat's because there would have been more diversity
(52:22):
of Anatolian languages in Eastern Anatolia,but the Kura Araxis culture, which is
not Indo European, expanded and replaceda lot of the Eastern Anatolian language speakers
and that where so that meant theAnatolian language family was only given the opportunity
to flourish in the western side ofWest of Anatolia. That's their argument,
not a bad argument, And okay, I'll finish off now with their final
(52:45):
the last comment, which I reallylike, and I believe I'm going to
guess that it comes from Frinchulesa,who's a Romanian archaeologist who's one of the
people on the paper, because I'veseen him say very similar things and I
quoted him saying something very similar inmy Yamni documentary. But it says these
groups are very diverse genetically. He'stalking about the Iron Age Step peoples like
(53:07):
the Summatans and the Scuthians, whodescend of course from Yamnia, et cetera.
They're very diverse genetically, but they'recurdgans. Scattered across the Step attest
to the persistence of at least someelements of culture that began in the Caucasus
Vulgar area seven thousand years ago beforeblooming in the dnipro Don area seven thousand
years ago. But I mean,they could say that in the Ironids,
(53:29):
but they could have given a betterexample of the Anglo Saxons and Vikings who
had burial practices of the same typeover a thousand years after the Scuffians ceased
to exist. So they're that,you know, like really carried on.
Like there are Anglo Saxon burials withlike they're buried with in a barrow,
(53:50):
with grave goods with wolf teeth,like teeth, like with kenned teeth,
necklaces and pottery and grave goods andweapons. Just this is like on the
medieval era and it's carrying on somethingexisted seven thousand years ago in the Step.
But yeah, they give the examplesless extreme example of the Scuffians,
(54:12):
which is in the Iron Age.But anyway, and I think that's because
the Scuffians and the Sarmatians actually dwelledin the same region as the Yamnia had,
as the ancestors had, so they'reshown cultural continuity within the same region.
But yeah, the actual longest lastingcontinuity of that archaeological tradition is not
in the Step where it originated,but in Northern Europe among Germanic people,
(54:35):
Germanic pagans, and ended only withthe introduction of Christianity, but the into
the yam Ni cultofers. To whatsymbolic purpose did the Yamni and their precursors
erect these mounds, We may notever fully know. If they aim to
preserve the memory of those buried underthem. Of course they did. They
did achieve their goal, as theKurgrans barrows dotting the landscape of the u
(55:00):
Step drew generations of archaeologists and anthropologiststo their study and enabled the genetic reconstruction
of their maker's origins presented here.Well, if you believe in fate as
I do, and also you knowthese people worship their ancestors, like in
the European cultures worship ancestors. SoI think they had every They knew exactly
what they were doing when they werebuilding these barrows. There's a reason why
(55:21):
the barrow, I said in theScuffion documentary I made. The barrow is
the center of the world for theScuffian, I said in my documentary about
Germanic pagans like keep pushing it.The barrow is so much more than a
burial monument. It's the center.It's the place where they had their legal
assemblies. It's a place it wasthe parliament. It's the place where they
communicated with the dead through ecromantic rituals. It links the past to the future,
(55:45):
it links the living to the dead. It's the center of their legal
and religious life. And the barrowis a tradition now seven thousand years old,
and it lasted well six thousand yearsbecause it stopped about a thousand years
ago, but an impressive run.Can you think of any any other cultural
tradition of such longevity. I wantto write a book just about this barrow
(56:08):
tradition and how it symbolizes like thecore of Indo European belief and culture.
No wonder that Maria Gibutas called themthe Kurugun people. Here's another super chat
from Liquid Oxygen. Unfortunately missed thebulk of this live, but thanks for
(56:29):
covering this very interesting information Tom,and thank you Liquid. Well. I'll
finish off with one more little quotethat I think is fun, but it's
not from the paper. It's froma guy and the very popular genetics enthusiast
Davinski of Eurogenes blog, and hesays on his comments section, the only
(56:52):
reason that the South of the CaucusesIndo Anatolian hypothesis is still being considered is
because it's appealing to many people fordifferent reasons, including pure wishful thinking that
the homeland not be placed in EasternEurope. Quite so, they're going to
have to come to term to thefact that the barrow Boys were Europeans.
(57:13):
With that, I thank you allfor watching Survive the Jive Jive Talk.
Don't forget the tune in next time, Young
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