Halloween special: Horror in History with Dave Martel

Halloween is a time for horror films but when did horror start? I am joined by Dave Martel on tonight’s Jive Talk in which we discuss how horror films have their precedents in early mythology and ghost stories.

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Thumbnail art of draugr by Joan Francesc Oliveras

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello, Welcome to Jive Talk. I've got big Big Martel.
He's back after a year. I haven't had him for
a while. Last time he was on, we were talking
about zombies. He and I both big horror fans, and
it's Halloween, so why not talk about horror again. This time,
Big Dave and I are going to go a bit
deeper into horror in general rather than just the undead.

(00:33):
But we want to see how horror relates to ancient
European practices, mythology, ancient European religion, and how the horror
genre is actually really tad an ancient custom and you
should be enjoying some horror films this Halloween spooky season
with the full knowledge that you are continuing the tradition
of your ancestors.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Big Dave, how's it going. It's going great, Glad to
be here.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Dave Martel is known for his work on the The
Bug He's the Bug Lord on his podcast, and also
he works with Imperium Press. And what else have you
been working on recently, Dave?

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah? So yeah, I do the bog I'm on one
half of Culture Dad's I do. I'm editor in chief
of the Bizarre Chives right here. You know, you guys
allow you already know. I am speaking of spooky stuff.
I published spooky literature, which we're going to talk about
probably quite a bit tonight. I am. You know, we
got the uh. I'm actually working a speed of horror.
I'm working on a horror film, a horror sci fi

(01:31):
film that we're going to to begin filming probably next
year or perhaps in the middle of winter. So I'm
very very excited for that. That's that's my first foray
into film. I've never made a film before, but I've
always wanted to, so I'm gonna give it a shot.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
That's exciting. I really think it's so important that people
get into film, Like I want to see people like
us making films, owning narratives, owning the artistic space, and
not just being confined to talking heads like we are now,
which is cool as well. Like I like podcasts as
much as the next guy, but sometimes I want to
sit down and want a narrative story, and I want

(02:08):
to want something that you know, makes use of the
full power of video and film. Is that total art form?
So how is this going to be released?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
So it's gonna be available a few different places, but
I believe we are going to premiere it on Hearthfire
Radio hearthfireradio dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Can you tell us a bit about what half Fire
Radio is.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
So Haarthfire Radio Mister Tom is a collection of pagan
and heathen content creators that have come together to create
a network of sorts. So it's I guess something like
a Spotify or a YouTube or something of that nature.
It's got a really really great lineup. Myself with the
Bog Mister Tom's on there. He's got an audio broadcast

(02:49):
on there. We have the Golden One Marcus Follan with
a program called Physique Manufactorum Dan with the Furigan. We
got a bunch of other folks. We have one that
a show that does analysis of books. We have the
Wessex Noomad who travels around and goes to different historic sites.
It's pretty much for Heathens by Heathens content, and I'm

(03:13):
really really proud of it. It's been a really good
launch and I think folks are really gonna like it,
So you guys check go check it out, guys, halffire
radio dot com. It's really really good stuff.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
And I also have a podcast on half Fire Radio yeah,
called Radio North Seat international, And the content that's on
there is not on Jive Talk, it's not on survivor
the Jive. It's only available with half Fire Radio. So like,
I'm one of the many content creators who are making
exclusive content as only available on the Heathen podcast network

(03:44):
called half Fire Radio. So if you are Heathen and
you're looking for some grade A content, and I really
recommend you check it out at halfiradio dot com. And
how's the community building going with Halffire.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
It's going well, it's going well, it's you know, it's
it was a we're launching in a time that uh,
this was this was surprising for me because we're launching
in a time where everybody's you know, I don't want
to get into the economy and all that, but you know,
it's a tough time these days. That people really came
out to support us. So we have already hit our
our We we had a we had like a milestone

(04:17):
we needed to hit for the whole thing to be successful,
and we're a month early on it. We already hit it.
It's already it's already good to go. So we're smooth
sailing the content on there. There's so much I was.
It's unbelievable how much content is on there. I listened
to it, you know, I'm subscribed obviously, so I've been
listening to it every day and I can't even it's
not even a scratch on the surface, the amount of

(04:39):
stuff that's over there. Your your episodes have been excellent.
I've been really enjoying the Newer Ground Table. They did
a full analysis of Voluspa, which is probably the deepest
analysis I've ever heard on it. It's really great stuff.
I'm really impressed with what we've put together here.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
I can't wait to listen to that. I really loved
I mean, it's just some of my favorite content created
on there. And Vlasport's so cool as well, like it
has so many just you know, has such an important
place within our religion because it's a demonstration of how
Odin acquires ark knowledge and it uses this repeating magical

(05:17):
motif of necromancy. He talks to a dead witch, which
is a very horror esque kind of thing to do,
and one of one of the runes the secret Ruins.
Odin says like I when I know another, when I
see a man walking, I can make him, And when
I see a man hanging, I can make him walk
and speak with me. So you know, my great grandmother

(05:40):
when her husband, my great grandfather, died, she was using
like magic or whatever to speak to him for a medium.
But in those days, Victorian like necromancy was just like
basically people wanted to check in on their loved ones
and see how they're doing. But necromancy and heathen times
was not like that at all, Like Odin isn't talking
about that. They thought they thought that the dead possessed

(06:01):
special knowledge that even the gods could benefit from learning about.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right, Yeah, it was this is this is something like
understanding that the dead are still present is a very heathen,
very heathen kind of worldview, and you know it, it's
in modern culture as well. You know, why do people
go pray at graves? You know if in the Christian

(06:26):
I've always thought this was strange, and I'm not taking
shot to Christians, but I always thought it was strange
that Christians believe your soul leaves your body. Your body
is just kind of this material husk and it goes
off to this place it's kind of outside of reality,
you know, heaven, which is this kind of what's the
word for a transcendental plane that is outside of reality.

(06:46):
Yet the Christians still go to graves and talk to
their their their fallen loved ones, like they can hear it.
You know, this is a very heathen thing. It's a
very ancient heathen thing. You know, our ancestors would go
to burial mounds because they believe that part of that
person is still there. They can hear it. The dead
are still very present, you know. We're we we are

(07:06):
a little bit it's I don't want to say, you know,
but there are some spooky elements to our to our
faith that people that might be coming in here might
feel it's a little bit spooky, like communing with the dead,
communing with your ancestors, you know, this kind of relationship
we have with the underworld. A lot of a lot

(07:27):
of what's in voluspa. A lot of our rituals and
stuff have to do with have to do with the
underworld and the events that are in Voluspa and stuff
like that. So it's we're kind of like a cathonic thing.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, I think I think part of the reason is
that the church laws, you know, denouncing heathenry and our
religion like included demonizing the things we were doing, like, oh,
they go to graves and the devil speaks to them
in the shape of a dead man. Uh, and they

(08:00):
call that and this is witchcraft, it must be a ban.
This is like English law codes. Obviously, they it wasn't
the devil in the shape of a dead man. It
was a dead man speaking to them. But they wanted
they wouldn't admit that our ancestors had the power to
speak to the dead, so they said, no, it was
just the devil taking the shape of dead people to
trick them and believe into believing they had that power.
This is cope. But like obviously, the whole thing of

(08:20):
like making graves scary, making people who try and speak
with the dead scary, making the idea of the underworld scarier,
all Christian sort of techniques to make a break from
the old religion, which was it didn't it did? We did,
And he evens did have a fear of the dead
sometimes like the draugar and the dead was the underworld

(08:42):
was a place that could invoke fear. But it wasn't
this this entirely fearful place like it had become. And
the idea of necromancy was not as terrifying perhaps as before.
But it's a bit complicated because it would be misleading
of me to say, oh, they were cool with it,
that they weren't afraid of the dead, because they were.
But maybe this is a good time for me to

(09:03):
read about a haunting in the saga, if that's okay. Yeah,
So there's loads of really cool The Icelandic sagas have
loads of really cool scary ghosts. One, for example, in
Greta Staga is a Swedish slave who he just he's
a bit of an arsehole, so he comes back as
a draga I think we talked about in the last

(09:25):
dream called his name was glam And in the Big Saga,
there's a really spooky kind of scene of a ghost
that comes up out of the fireplace in the form
of a seal, like a seal servicing from the water,
but instead of servicing from the water, it's servicing from
the ground of the hearth, and they have to beat

(09:47):
it and beat it over the head like club it
to death to make it go back down. But here's
an account of hauntings in the sagas from a book
A Bare Orphan. Other stories in a Bigger Saga Uhl
lame foot Bagift, father of Arnkel and neighbor of Snorri
the god. He dies an ugly death in a fit

(10:07):
of rage. He's buried in a strongly built cairn. Soon
after people realize that he's not resting in peace. Animals
near the cairn run wild and bellow themselves to death.
The shepherd is regularly chased home by the ghost of
THOROLFA later, the shepherd is found dead near the cairn.
His body is cold, black and every bone in his
body is broken. Later still he is seen in Toroflus's

(10:30):
company the ghosts, the two ghosts together, the two zombies together.
As winter advances and darkness falls further and further, people
hear someone riding on the roof. No one dares Gray's
animals in the valley, the farms are devastated, then deserted.
Tholfer kills some men who are later seen in his company.
So it's like the more people this ghost kills, the

(10:52):
more his army of ghosts grows. In the spring, Arnkel
Thorofson decides to move the corpse. It is undecayed but
hideous to look at. On the way to the new
burial side on a headland, the oxen pulling the sledge
go mad, break loose, and run themselves to death. Total

(11:12):
is buried in a new can and rests quietly for
some time. This kind of creature. Actually he does come back,
though he rests for a quiet time, but he comes
back at one point as a troll bull, like a
bull that was born. It's like it licks the the
stones where they had cremated him, and this causes the

(11:35):
troll like magic of the of the ghosts to go
into the bull and eventually he gaus a man to death,
and finally they killed a bull, and then that they're
done with this monstrous haunting episode. But this could make
a great horror film, right, and.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
That does think that goes so hard.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
I think the Sagas, I mean, these Icelandic dudes were
making decent horror long ago, like we sometimes think of
horror as been coming out of Victorian England or around
that time. But it's obviously older.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Right, yeah, big time. I argue that horror is our
oldest tradition, and I also argue that storytelling is our
oldest art form. So spooky storytelling is something that prop
that definitely goes back far before anything recorded, Right, we
could look into the sagas. Obviously, you can look at

(12:24):
just about any ancient any ancient text or poetry or whatever,
and find spooky stuff. There's spooky stuff in in the Iliad, right,
there's spooky stuff all throughout. And then you get into folklore.
For those of you that have read Speaking of Imperium
Press have read his folk tales in the Indo European tradition,
And in the beginning of the book he talks about

(12:46):
this study of following. I believe they're called folk Now
what are they called tale types? Right? These tale types?
Are these these themes or I don't want to say
tropes motifs, I guess that can betrayed all the way
back that are found through Indo European comparative study and
can be traced all the way back to really ancient times.

(13:08):
And a lot of them are pretty freaking spooky. You know,
you read the old folklore, it's you know, it's not
like Disney princesses. There's there's goblins, there's demons and devils
and kids get eaten and all gods of wild stuff.
But it goes all the way back. So I make
the case so what A lot of times you go

(13:28):
to a regular person who say, you say the word horror,
what will come to their mind? Texas, Chainsaw, Massacre, Chucky.
You know, probably modern horror films. But in actuality, I
would say, Michael Myers, and you know the thing and
all all of our our favorite horror films of today
are part of a tradition that go all the way

(13:50):
back into the midst of time, when guys and who knows,
you know, the freaking Stone Age, were sitting around on
logs telling spooky stories about what lurks in the forests
and the mountains and so forth. These kind of these
months like creature features and stuff like that. I don't
think that these these storytelling devices have changed at all.

(14:13):
I think that these are thousands and thousands of years old.
I think horror is part of us, especially us as
as Heathens, as pagans that have this magical worldview and
take very seriously these uh are are are our ancient literature,
are our folk our folk lore. We take very seriously,
the Eda, we take very seriously. These things, these are

(14:34):
You're real to us. So for us, it's kind of
like it's woven into us, and it's something that I've
noticed at gatherings and stuff. And Tom, I'm sure you
notice that we're kind of all the same guy for
some reason, right, we go to we go to these events,
and we've kind of all have the same interests. We
all have the same loves, we have the same stuff.

(14:54):
And one thing that I've seen a lot is this
love for dark, spooky things, right, folks, Whether whether it's
in the form of horror films, whether it's in the
form of love for the spooky stuff in history, or
it's things like Warhammer forty k or whatever. This is
something that we all really seem to enjoy for some reason,

(15:16):
or at least one of the things. I'm not gonna
say all, but we all seem to enjoy a like
a gathering of things, and we all at least like
one of the things. If you go to a heathen gathering,
you're gonna find at least a couple of dudes that like,
you know, heavy metal, a couple guys that like, you know,
playing tabletop board games, or you know what. There's a

(15:36):
few things that we, for some reason, we all like.
And I think that there is there is a reason
for this. I don't think it's a coincidence. I don't
think that it's whatever. I think that those of us,
the sensitive few that the gods call back to the
community and back to the tradition, are of this kind
of similar spiritual stock or something like that. I don't

(15:56):
really have the words to articulate it, but I think
that it's kind of woven into us. It's part of us.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
It's a part. It's an interest in the dead, right,
it's a it's a concern. You could call it more bid,
being morbid, or you could or something like this, but
really it's a it's an interest in the dead. And
that's what I think. Like you know, the the imagery
of heavy metal with the skulls and stuff, the imagery
of horror films, and the Heathen religion itself, all of these,
and in fact, any kind of interest in the past

(16:23):
historians in general, this is an interest in the dead.
This is making the past present, that which has been
again come back. There's something I think. This is just ancient,
I mean, and it's a human impulse, but it's also
extremely important in the Indo European traditions, and sometimes, like
you say, it is preserved in many of the motifs.
Like the biggest Indo European narrative of all is the

(16:45):
hero's journey to the underworld. Right, it goes on and
on throughout the Western canon. It goes on. I mean,
it's even in Jesus with Jesus had to copy it
with the Harrowing of Hell and then Dante's Inferno. You
know this, they had to make it into a Christian narrative.
It several times. And even now you can see like
like cartoons and stuff like that, like modern day like

(17:07):
stories they have a version of the hero's journey into
the underworld. It's like it's such an important motif. And
when I got a big book of like fairy tales,
like old Germanic fairy tales for my kids, and when
you understand the inn European like mythic motives, you see
them come up again and again in the fairy tales,
like you said, like in the Indo European folk or
book that Imperium Press is published. But it's like whenever

(17:29):
it's not always described as the underworld. Sometimes it's just
like fairy world or or something like that, Like it's
someone they go into an eerie place and they can't
get out, and if they eat the food there they
can't leave, or if you know, they get trapped in
the land of the fair folk whatever. All these fairy
law is all like thee the she or cither in Gaelic,

(17:50):
or the elves in Germanic. These are spirits of the dead.
That's the people of the barrow. So when you're talking
about going to the world of the other folk or
the fair folk, you're talking about going to the world
of the dead. It's such an important motive. And yeah,
I mean I think that some people might try, in
like modern psychology to pathologize and you know, this kind

(18:12):
of interest in the dead, But I think it's really
natural and actually not just natural good. I think it's
actually good, Like you know, this is momento mora. It's
not it's like the Catholics have it, the Romans had it.
They used to have like these banquets where they give
the guests a little dancing skeleton model to remind themselves
of the death. And like modern philosophers like Heidegger talks

(18:36):
about the importance of like spending time in graveyards and
remembering your mortality, like this is what makes life meaningful.
I tried to say this in other videos like death
punctuates life makes it meaningful, and our relationship with the
dead makes our lives have meaning and the lives of
descendants because if we're of your heaven, then you believe

(18:58):
that your descendants and your ancestors are kind of this
thing anyway, because it's a big cycle. Yeah, what kind
of horror films do you recommend that people who are
interested in these themes watch?

Speaker 2 (19:10):
As far as Okay, ah man, that's a good question,
as far as the themes of our relationship with the
with the Cathonic, our relationship with the dead. And I
actually do want to double point out that your point
about how uh a relationship with the dead is makes
makes our faith very life affirming. That's a that's a
big deal that can't be stated enough times because we

(19:32):
don't we we understand that there's a cycle. We understand
that those that came before are the dead, our ancestors
are our superiors. So maybe you're right, maybe that's that's
why we do enjoy these types of films. It's these
types of art forms that are that are that sometimes
can be kind of grim or whatever. Uh. And the
beginning I said our religion was a little bit spooky.
Maybe that was a good, good way to describe it,

(19:55):
because it is a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing
to love your ancestors and for that that love and
that understanding to also be expressed in art, and to
be expressed as an interest in art that is still
alive today in modern in modern forms. Right. You mentioned
about film, Dude, I think I think film is the
culmination of everything, and I actually we can get it.

(20:18):
We could get all in the film. But your question
what films, what films? Would people let me come back
to that? I wish you would.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
I mean, I've got I've got this opinion. I mean
what I wanted to lead into is that like horror
has kind of, like Halloween itself, has kind of branched
off from its original thing. So the core like old
horror is like the first horror film is uh not Ferrati, right,
And that's coming from the bram Stokers, Dracula an illegal
copy of it, and the general like horror, Ah, don

(20:55):
my camera's gone. But the general horror, the general horror
like beasts like were wolves, that's for Norse mythology. Vampire
probably from Slavic mythology, but it's got it's basically the
same as a drauga anyway, and zombies which have like
various presidents like depending on where you want to go,
but also like drauga. So Frankenstein, which is a modern

(21:17):
sci fi thing from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. But it's also
basically like the same as it's creating a homunculous or
a golum in Yiddish Jewish folk or like the idea
of creating an unnatural being. Guess who else does that?
Odin he makes the living, the wooden things come alive
like thor gardfre we put. They put a human heart

(21:39):
into the idol and they can make it go away
and kill people. That's very much the same as the
Jews have their golam or whatever, the homunculous and these
other kind of like man made servant robot robots that
go out and do your bidding. Well, that's basically what
frank from Mary Shelley Frankenstein. It's sort of thing. It's
like what when when when she's trying to say, you know,
like oh, should man be gold or not? But that

(22:01):
in a way like in our tradition, Odin makes us
from wood, but he also demonstrates the way that we
can use magic to make wooden things come alive as
well in various ways. But that horror films like branched
out and it includes all kinds of things that aren't
like these the traditional monsters, and so's Halloween like Halloween costume.
Halloween used to originally be about dressing up as ghosts,

(22:23):
as the spirit of the dead. Then it branches out
you can be other kinds of monsters, devils, Frankenstein, whatever.
And then suddenly you can be a sexy cat, or
you can be a sexy nurse, or you can be
your sexy whatever. You can just be you know, it's
like you can be anything. You can be Superman. But ah,
my cameras on their blitz on the splits, so I
don't know what's happening to it. But the main thing

(22:45):
is that I think that you need it needs to
go back. It needs to be the core monsters. I
think the best Halloween, if you're gonna watch a horror
film with Halloween, ought to be ghosts, zombies or devils
or spirits or something like that. The more to do
with the undead like vampire is great. I watched last
night the cool vampire film called Subspecies. All my favorite

(23:09):
horror films have an element of the supernatural in them,
so I think that they should have the supernatural horror,
so that can even be like massive films like The
Shining The Thing of that that's like a sci fi.
I love that film so much. I don't think it's
really halloweeny. It's great, but that's part of you mentioned
the Thing. I do think it's an absolutely classic. The

(23:31):
remake of the Thing for nineteen eighty two is an
absolutely classic film, but it's part of a series of
films made by John Carpenter for his so called is
it called the Prince of Darkning or the Apocalypse series,
And some people say that The Thing ought not to
be in that series because the other two are much

(23:54):
more like I mean one of them, Prince of Darkness
and the Mouth of Madness. Mouth and Madness is a
full on Loft horror. It's full on Lovecraft. Prince of
Darkness is kind of at the intersection of a sci fi,
alien sci fi and supernatural horror, which is really interesting,
I think, whereas The Thing is just a straight up
sci fi. So yeah, all of the I think the

(24:15):
thing is less Halloween, but even like modern you know,
The Witch from twenty to sixteen by Robert Eggers is
a great horror film I think is good for this
time of year. And besides these actual supernatural beats, I
think a Halloween film ought to have it used to
It ought to be set at this time of year.
There should be some orange leaves on the ground, and

(24:37):
it should be in a it should be in a
temperate climate. It can't be in a tropical place or
in the Arctic. It's got to be somewhere where there's orange,
there's some autumn fall. You know, there's some pumpkins, ideally
some pumpkins.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
What do you think That's a that's a very kind
of trad way to look at it, right, that's a
so I would I do want to mention science fiction
real quick, because you said about science fiction, you're kind
of excluding some fiction from the Halloween And if if
your criteria for what makes a Halloween movie is the
mood of northern hemisphere autumnal kind of settings, because a

(25:12):
lot of here's the deal also you're coming from this
is actually a very British idea that part of what
makes good horror or good spooky is the setting, right, Yeah,
the original gothic and supernatural storytellers we're talking, you know,
the guys you mentioned Bram Stoker, et cetera, et cetera.

(25:32):
The setting was almost like a character in and of itself, right,
The castles, the architecture, you know a lot of this stuff,
the stormy nights and darkness, and the setting itself is
as important as the characters. Yeah, and you mentioned about
John Carpenter. This is why you know the movie Halloween,

(25:55):
the first one is such a good Halloween movie. Not
because it's called Halloween or because it's a scary movie,
but because it takes this philosophy of the setting being
a character of itself. It's borrowed from the British tradition
of Gothic horror and makes it hadden Field, which is
the the setting of Halloween is almost like its own thing.

(26:18):
It's this big, empty, suburban kind of place. It's shot
in the daylight, which is different. It's a very that's
a very folk horror, very old timing kind of idea.
Being shot in the daytime. It goes to the nighttime later,
and then we could talk about like the lighting effects
and the color palettes and all that, which is brilliant.
I love it. But the setting and the mood are

(26:38):
are as important as the story, if not more so.
So You're you're the way you're you're coming at This
is a very traditional, very British way of looking at
it's coming. It's informed by Gothic horror, supernatural supernatural literature.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
But I do think that America Halloween has an even
in Britain, is very American focused now because it's been
the America is inseparable from American culture, and some of
the best horror Halloweeny horrors are set in New England.
So I think it's got to be like I think
USA is almost more is more Halloweeny than Britain, but
only a part of you say, not Texas, not Canada.

(27:16):
It's got to be that like that in between zone
where there's enough like orange leaves, basically not too many pines,
not too much, too much desert or anything like that.
So England can fit into that. But yeah, it's but yeah,
I mean, I have obviously the biases of a british
Man because I'm a british Man.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
And there's also the association between Halloween and kind of
Old America when I'm talking about like colonial America, the
old colonial churches, the stone block churches, and the graveyards
and the way that the buildings were and stuff like
that that it has that air, right, Yeah, Old Protestant
America has that air of something spooky. We associate with

(27:55):
the Salem witch Trials. We associated with these types of
these themes and motifs. So when we think of like
when we a lot of times when we picture in
our minds, A lot of it could be because of
movies and everything like that, but a lot of times
when we picture Halloween in our minds, we picture Old America.
We picture uh things from like something that would be
very Edgar Allan poe esque, right and not a Poe

(28:19):
gets sometimes called Southern Gothic, which is a little bit
of a strange kind of way to look at it.
But because of poet, because of Lovecraft, you mentioned New England,
every single one of his stories is in New England except.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
For it's got to be New England. It's the place
with the Whipplewhills and the and the and the old
universities like Miss Katonic.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Miss Katonic, Yeah exactly. Yeah, So architecture and setting and
mood and atmosphere are very much a a an old
British tradition involved with creating what is spooky. And this
also goes into uh when you get into guys like
Arthur Mackin, right, who is a supernatural storyteller. Was if

(28:58):
you if you like, for example, if you wanted to
like pick his literary parents, you would take Poe and
Arthur mackin and put them together, and then you get Lovecraft.
He is a combination of those two. Arthur mackin His
stories are all about the ancient old British isles, right,

(29:20):
It's all set in these dark, weird old forests with
mists and green and weirdness and all of this kind
of stuff. And then you can get into guys like
algerd On Blackwood and William Hope Hodgson and so forth,
and these these supernatural storytellers Ambrose bears that really made
They took setting from being castles and buildings and man

(29:43):
made structures and made them more natural. So they said,
we could take this spooky storytelling, this British tradition of
the spooky setting being a character, and we can make
it the earth. Right, So they kind of extended it
out and made it and kind of in away, made
it a back. And this is what I wanted to
get into when you mentioned about science fiction. So a

(30:03):
lot of people will separate sci fi horror or cyberpunk.
Let's take sci fi horror, for example, stuff like the thing,
stuff like alien instead of yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly,
But that's another that's a whole other thing. But replace

(30:25):
the spooky forest, the deep dark mysterious forces with outer space.
And now replace the the werewolf or the feral you know,
supernatural beast, and put in the thing or put in
the alien, make them alienoids. Right, it's expanding beyond Earth.
It's the same, it's the same delivery. It's the same thing,

(30:47):
except pushing it outward into space. Right, So I would
say that the science elements the science. I've always argued
that science fiction is a subgenre of horror, the best
it can be.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
It doesn't have to because you know, of course that
there are none. There are some sci fis that aren't horror,
and they're just something else, like romance, sori fi or whatever.
But it can. I do think like sci fi horror
is a a part. You're right there with the sci
fi horror is like a part of horror. And then
and and it's a growth of horror because it allows
for the expansion of the liminal, like other world the

(31:21):
fair what was fairy? Well from like familiar, well like
semi familiar like think things just as like it's transferred
from British Gothic to New England, can be transferred to
your space or wherever you want.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, and then then you're talking about making a homunculi right,
what other how would the Replicants and Blade Runner be
described other than a homunculi monculus? Right? And then what
that that that Neon traverse of the the megalopolis it's
found in cyberpunk? How else could that be described? In
a mysterious like kind of place, you know what I mean,

(31:56):
It's a place that is kind of you know, it's
like like a forest be except that pop. It's urban, right,
It's got its the urban sprawl. As far as science fiction,
I want to bring not just science fiction, but specifically
the brand of science fiction I'm talking about is associated
with horror, and why it's also part of the tradition.
I would like to make this argument that it is

(32:17):
not different insofar is as it is mythopoetic science. Fiction
is is mythopoetic for us. It is the mythopoetic storytelling
that we have developed as modern people. And the reason
for this is because it is eschatological. Right. When we
think about mythopoetic storytelling, right, we could talk about horror.

(32:37):
We could also talk about fantasy, right, Fantasy is usually
when you think about mythopoetics, right, most people would say Tolkien,
they would say there's a Lord of the Rings. They
would say Conan, they would say, you know the obviously Beowulf,
you could get into, you know, the more ancient stuff
like the Iliad, the Odyssey, x y Z, all that stuff. However,

(32:59):
what is what is part of eschatology is what is voluspa?
Like voluspa is it has the beginning, but it also
has the end, right, and this is part of the cycle.
The reason that we have this association with the dead
is because we we have this understanding that the beginning
and the end are part of a part of a circle.
They cannot exist without each other. So when we talk

(33:21):
about mythopoetics, yeah, you have the origin stories, the stuff
that how how we began with the swords and the
sorcery and the monsters and the man conquering and all
this kind of stuff in Conine and Lord of the
Rings and blah blah blah. But we also have to
talk about our doom and what genre illustrates our doom.
The ones that talk about where we exchange, we relinquish

(33:44):
our humanity for technology. We talk about the Earth being
destroyed by outsiders, by alien forces, by like the Jotan
you could say, are alien forces.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Right.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
So in science fiction excuse me, and cyberpunk, and these
types of genres are very much tied in with the escatology.
They are the other end of mythopoetic storytelling and therefore
are part of the tradition.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
I've always found personally, one of the most disturbing, like
to me types of horror is body horror, which very
much crosses over with science fiction. Usually there are some
body horror films that have a supernatural explanation for the
body horror. I think a lot of body horror has
come out of it, like the David Cronenberg stuff especially,

(34:33):
It's like something some technology gone wrong and then just
the freakish otherness of your own body, and that could
come like, you know, the otherness of the body, and
the horror of that can be like tied into like
a gnostic view where like the body is other than
the soul. But I think within like the Cronenberg and
the other kinds of sci fi body horror sort of things,

(34:53):
like the horror is that something other to the body
has been introduced to the body, or something has made
your own body other, uh, and that that that otherness
is technology, and that's something I think perhaps I find
it so disturbing because that's something we're actually living right now.
We are constantly becoming other from some thing attached to
us and changing the way our brain works, changing the

(35:14):
way we behave and everything. So yeah, I mean, but
I love and like the thing is a form of
the thing is a body horror in a way John
Carpenter is because it's like that horror of that, you know,
this other thing coming in, you know, mutinating and becoming
and replicating humans, which which is disturbing as it is. Uh,

(35:35):
But yeah, like the other Carpenter's stuff, like even his
more recent one of which isn't I wouldn't call it horror,
but Crimes of the Future, which is literally about human race.
Haven't have you seen that one? It's a new one
came out a couple of years ago about the human
race starts to evolve a subspecies who are evolved to

(35:58):
live on eating plastic, and they're starting to mutate into
plastic consumers, and like they're trying to resist it because
they don't want to be plastic eaters, but they can't
stop it, and they become more and more deformed if
they don't eat plastic. And it's like a it's it's
disgusting idea, but it's like kind of like showing us
something like what if we become further and further from

(36:20):
what we are into something else we don't really want
to be that, Like, it's the horror of transhumanism, and
transhumanist ideology made visualized in these in these forms is
quite powerful because it represents something so disgusting, like really,
but I would be I'm not. I love that kind
of stuff because it's it's powerful for the ideological, Like

(36:43):
it's relevant as well, and it makes a horror genre
remain relevant to us. But I have a special soft
bat for the old monsters. You can say, I'm tad
that was and I do want to say, a couple
of really cool vampire films that because I think the
vampire didn't talk about enough last time. Because the draga
is a zombie, the draga of Norse mythology.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
But what do you say, a drager is body horror,
the mockery of the human form.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
No, because he isn't. No, I don't think he's a
body horror, because it's the body horror is like the
horror comes from the change of the body, the change
the body being something other than it is was. The
actual physical appearance of the drago is only like change
in the sense they start to decay a bit, they
go black. But sometimes the unusual and spooky thing is

(37:30):
that they don't decay, rather than that they do decay.
So it's not really I don't think that's their body horror.
I think that one thing about them that's interesting in
Icelandic sources is that they haunt at night often and
they don't and they go back to their barrow or
they can in the daytime. They're like they're still around it,
but they don't go far, Like, well, that's not really

(37:51):
a zombie thing. That's like vampires, you know, they go
back to their coffin in the day, like, so I
think that there's a big crossover and the vampire film
is never been exclusively English. We had the old Hammer
Horror things with like you know, some good my mother's
boarding school was used by Hammer Horror for vampire stuff.
But I really I watched recently Salem's Lot, which is

(38:13):
from nineteen seventy nine, and it's like a set in
New England. Is that's really like American horror vibes, Like
it's a really good like film about which is vampires things.
So check that out. And also John Carpenter's vampire film
just called Vampires. Have you ever seen that in nineteen

(38:34):
ninety eight.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
I have, but it's been a long time.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
That's pretty cool as well. It makes it modern. It's
like a modernization and very American. So and I wanted
to mention also a film that folk horror, which is
like a very British genre, but we is defined by
a British comedian, Mark Gattis in nineteen twenty ten, mainly
to refer to British folk horror films from the seventies

(38:58):
that weren't called folk orr at the time. But there's
a film for nineteen eighty three an American film called
Eyes of Fire, which is definitely a folk horror film,
but no, it would be but set in America in
an isolated forest where like the ghost of French colonists
sort of come like a sort of cooled up of
the grave and has like, Okay, it's got some woke

(39:20):
sort of like anti colonialist subtext which is like about
the poor native American's evil French guys. But it's cool
because it makes this mythopoetic narrative. It it imbues like
the American landscape with this mythic sort of narrative that
that relates to its history. And I mean, unfortunately the
same with Stephen King. It's always like, oh, an Indian

(39:42):
burial ground. It always has to be. It counts in
that turn. But it's still Eyes of Fire a great
film to check out. Have you have you got any
more have you thought it yet? Of any recommendations for
the viewers or films that are.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
That are about the dead one you're talking about John
Carpenter And this one popped into my mind and this
is probably everybody's probably seen this one. This is one
I just adore this one. The fog. Have you ever
seen the Fog.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Oh yeah, great film, great film, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Fantastic old time film. It's about it's about this priest
that gets his his his father took some gold from
some pirates or something like that, or found found some
buried treasure and hid it in the church, and the
pirates come, their spirits come in this fog that comes
and consumes the community. It's like this little New England

(40:33):
town on the coast, and they kill people and at
the end they have to give the gold back. And
it's just a it's a fantastic old timey uh kind
of supernatural horror that involves like the dead getting revenge
because this is something that is in Indo European culture,
ancient Indo European culture, this idea of the dead being

(40:55):
hungry ghosts that can be vengeful if you don't if
you don't appease them, right, they could come and get
revenge on you.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
But that's that's often the reason they are ghosts is
because they want they want revenge.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah, exactly. So the fog and not just not just
the premise, but I I adore the texture and the
color palette, and obviously John Carpenter's sound, uh, here's another
thing we didn't we didn't mention is the sound, right,
You could say that the the like John Carpenter, specifically

(41:27):
guys like him that puts so much effort and emphasis
on the soundscape.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
He does his own sound, doesn't he hes not at all.
He didn't for the thing he got badimenti or whatever
that Italian.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Need to do it.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
But the other ones is usually he does his own scores.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
His own scores. He was a composer, he was editor,
he was he wrote the thing, he directed it. He
was like a one man show madman. But like with
how the setting in and of itself like that we're
talking about the leaves and the architecture and all this
kind of stuff when you're watching the film, that gets
blended and overlaid with the sound skin the music, right,

(42:01):
So you could argue that the music is part of
part of the setting, is part of just as much
as as the physical location is. Right, So you could
say that that's part of the that's like a new
a new element of the tradition that got added in
when music and stuff got added into film. In fact,
speaking to Halloween, when when John Carpenter first did Halloween,

(42:24):
he without any of the sound. He showed it to
I guess his producer or something like that, and he's like,
this isn't scary at all. This is terrible. And then
he went back and added all of his music and
showed him again. He's like, this is terrifying. Yeah, how iconic. Right,
That's like, yeah, that's about as iconic as Jaws.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Right, it does make that film. I'm not actually a
big fan of the first two Halloween films Michael Myers,
but I like, I mean, the score is great and
the look of it's great. But I always thought the
third one was the best, the one with where it
isn't about Michael miss like like crazy like ancient druidic
culture is like and magical like toys or something that,

(43:05):
like the toy fact veryong to where it's like the
first two films about like a psycho serial killer, and
then the third one is just not about that.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Orders that was actually that was actually the original vision
they were gonna each Halloween was going to be a
different story. But people loved Michael Meyer so much they
just wanted more and more, and the third Halloween was
like a flop. People hated it.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
I think it's I love it.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's my favorite. But I actually I got
to have the to really love it. I've got to
have a little bit of I mean, I don't have
to have like supernatural, because I love alien, but I
mean for that I prefer if I prefer supernatural explanation
a supernatural element, because I just think that's like and
more interesting to go from some more trad things. I

(43:52):
was thinking of this, if you want to look at
something some old Soviet cinema in nineteen sixty seven, there's
a film called The v I Why, which is based
on a medieval like Catholic, well not Catholic, Orthodox Christian
sort of cautionary tale or some kind from Russia about
a man who has to spend the night in a
haunted house. But it's just beautifully done. It's a young

(44:16):
priests who, yeah, it has to preside over the wake
of a wit in a small old wooden church of
a remote village for three nights. So it has these
really like repeating motive or the first night, second night,
third night, which is always in Indo European folklore. So
it's it has a very ancient vibe to it. It
feels like as close as a film can get to

(44:38):
being like an old folk tale. Like I love that vibe.
So I really recommend if you want to see some
like flying Ghules tormenting some drunken priest in a in
a in Russia, then yeah, that's a cool film to
check out. Have you can you think of anything that
like films that have that more like folklore vibe to them,
like or like more of the old Indo European historical

(45:00):
kind of horror.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Obviously you mentioned you mentioned the Witch. The Witch is
a good one. I'm trying to think. I wish, I
wish I would have prepared for for this, because I
could have. I could have conjured up, conjured up some.
But you let me think.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Here, Pumpkinhead in American one as well, a witch Stummond's
a monster that and like, okay, it's a certain America,
but it has that this is an ancient theme. She loses,
she cools up with her witchcraft power a demonic creature
to get vengeance against her enemies, which is very That's
that's quite an old that's the kind of old witchy
thing to.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
Do, I thought.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
And that's a good film too, if you like you
know that iconic American horror, and it's it's very very
halloweeny too because it's got the you know, the dry
ice and the twisty wooded forests and the pumpkins and
everything like that.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah, you mentioned about. So there was also the troll
Hunter series. There is also the troll movies. There's also Yeah,
I watched a really corny one recently that I kind
of liked. It was a Russian film. It was about mermaids,

(46:15):
like these killer mermaids. I can't remember what it was called.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Sounds interesting because yeah, the mermaid is not like it's mythic,
it's like folkloric thing. It's actually British and Scandinavian more
than Russian. But uh, if the the Mermaid is not
like really represented in its horrible form very well in film,
it's always in a in a in a different way,
So that'd be interesting to see. What was it called.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
I can't remember what it was called, but it was
it was actually pretty good. What I really liked about
it was it was it had a very nice, old
old approach to the color power. I'm very big on
color in the in the like the two thousands and
going into like a lot of those films, and there
were some pretty cool films during this time, like one
that I really Enjoyoid of the Descent. I don't know

(47:02):
if you ever saw that.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
One was a British film.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah, it was about spelunkers that went in there's these
like subhumans that like started eating them and stuff. That
was pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
But you did the color palette on that eating.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
No, no, no, I disliked the color palette and two
thousands they went out black on gray on grayl But
this Mermaid film, it had a lot of like weird
blue greens and blues and a lot of that old
school kind of color and pretty much the story was
there was some lady that was a curse to become
a mermaid, and you killed people and then the curse
got carried on or something like that. I remember I

(47:38):
enjoyed the film because it had that that it was.
It was kind of a proper folk horror type of vibe.
I don't know that.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Color thing, I think I don't know when exactly came in,
but I remember the matrix was like it was because
that was they shot. They give it that green palette
for the matrix, not horror, but they actually didn't use
a filter for that. They actually lit each scene with
a greenish light to try and give it there. It
was quite novel at the time to see everything and
sort of that weird in like one kind of weird

(48:08):
color palette. But they did that on purpose to make
it seem artificial, because everything's artificial. It's like a computer construction.
But afterwards it was like more and more films started
doing everything in like a weird like you know, like
everything's too blue or gray or they just washed out
and I and I'm fed up with it, so fed
up with it now it's been going on for ages,
and I want to see lots of popping colors and like,

(48:32):
I want to see that that was like the in
the sixties when cinema was big and people really were
going to the cinema a lot. There was big color everywhere, Like,
you know, why can't we go back to that? I
don't understand.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, I don't know. I do think people I think
we're starting to go back to that. I've noticed that
there's there's Baby.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
I didn't ask, but the colors look great on Bobbie.
I just don't want to watch the film, so.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
No, But there's like, for example, I just watched as
a sci fi film, but it was what was it.
It was called Spaceman had Adam Sandler in it. It
was about Adam Sandler is a It was actually like
I know, but it was actually his best movie, right,
he was. It's a serious movie. It's about he's an astronaut.
He gets sent out in space to go see this
this like who knows, I forget what it is. It's

(49:18):
like some sort of space debris, space storm or something
like that, and he encounters this weird alien spider thing
that's like really intelligent, and it's actually like a really
really good It's actually like his best movie. Yeah. I
don't really like him. I think he's corny and not funny,
but this was like his best role. It was really incredible.
It was like do you remember do you remember Robin

(49:39):
Williams had that movie where he was a serial killer.
It turned out to be like his best movie.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
You talking about the one where he's a photographer. Yeah,
if one our photograph or something like that. Yeah, it
was quite good actually.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Yeah, so it was like kind of like that kind
of thing. But anyway, Spaceman had like a lot of
pinks and purples and had a lot of color to it,
and I just thought it was a very attractive film.
So I think that I think a lot of people
are I think a lot of filmmakers are coming back
around to this idea. They're very they're very much being
influenced by indie film at this point because you know,

(50:11):
we all know how much Hollywood is hemorrhaging money and
they're they're just a mess, And so indie film is
getting really really big movie like like film studios like
eight twenty four. I'm not a huge fan of them
with a lot of their stuff, but they have a
few bangers like It Follows. I don't know if you
ever saw It Follows.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
It Follows was fantastic. Yeah, that's that's like, that was
a really interesting take on Like it's kind of like
the same idea of vampire zombie in the sense it's
an infectious disease but as a metaphor for sexual transmission.
But the sexual undertones were always there in the Vampire
and Dracula and Brown Stokas thing as well, So it's
kind of a natural progression of it, but in a
very you know, mid is it in the Midwest or

(50:50):
it's like post industrial Detroit or something like that. I
can't remember it.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Yeah, I forget exactly where, but it was it was
like a yeah, it was. It almost had a kind
of vampire thing. Speaking of vampire, I am very excited
for Eggers No Seratu. Me too.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering what the color is gonna
be like, because I really love the Nosparaty remake by
Verna Hersock. Looks brilliant and it's very good the the
but this one esthetically, although it's like, you know, a
nod to the nos not that there's original Astaraty from
the twenties and the there's a few other remakes, including

(51:28):
the Verna Hersock one from the eighties, but I think
esthetically what he's gone for is more a copy of
Coppola's Dracula, which is actually I like the way Copple
as Dracula looks. People some did you like copple as Dracula.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
I think it's the best vampire movie.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
It's a good film. It's good and I think Keanu
Reeves looking gormless in it. It's quite fun enough. He's
good enough. It's like, there's not great acting in it.
It's a bit Hammy, and but I.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Love for Gary Oldman, Gary Oldman, Oh my goodness, see's
incredible what he he is. Gary Oldman in Dracula is
so disturbing you. The way that he moves, the way
that he talks, his his his mannerisms and everything about him.
He that what a fantastic film. I do spoke talking
about vampires. I'm a I'm a trad guy too. I

(52:19):
hate you mentioned the sparkly kissy vampires. That makes me
want a puke, That makes me not want to watch
vampire movies ever again. And over time I kind I think,
I think my wounds have healed, and I think I'm
ready for a nose faratu. I love the old archetype
of the Gothic, the gothic vampire lord.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
That iss isn't gonna do like a leather jacket wearing
smoldering pretty boy vampires.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
It's not gonna terrible. But the the the the archetype
of the old, the old vampire that's in his castle
is unspeakable wealth and he can shape shift and all.
That's what I like.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Troll like that. That's great shifting. Yeah, I'm really keen
on whats I'm looking forward to seeing what Eggs can do,
because he's gone for something here where he doesn't I mean,
there's not a lot of like room for innovation. Well
there is in a way, but he's gone for something
that is like extremely done to death, and that's really like,
that's extremely challenging as a creative for him because he's

(53:23):
like you know, hersog Francis for Coppola, those are big
shoes to follow, and he's trying. He's deliberately making you
conscious that he is copying both of those, and those
themselves were copying this, ain't you know. There's the oldest
tradition in cinema practical, which is the nast party film,
which is of course is even older tradition of horror,

(53:44):
which is bloody prehistoric. But he I think he's extremely
bold to take that on, and it's partly I think
the reason he's done something so what's the word, not generic,
but like certainly genre. He's doing a genre film, which
is maybe because he I mean, he said he was
rethinking his career after the after the way Northman was

(54:06):
received and it wasn't as successful as he'd hope it
would be. So I don't know what that means. And
whether it's going to be him just like doing a
film by the numbers, and that would be really disappointing
if it's the case. But I just I got a
feeling he's got something up a sleeve. And he's already
demonstrated with the Witch that he's got like a real
knack and with the Northman a real knack for bringing

(54:27):
alive a past world in an authentic way. Like I
feel very like I was in New England in the Wits,
Like he got the actors to use this archaic forms
of speech. He was going through Moby Dick and stuff
for like quotes for like the Lighthouse, to try and
really make them have this Like I think the language
is so important for bringing that pass alive. Northman didn't
have that so much with the language because they were

(54:48):
just doing these funny accents. But Northman had the very
the most authentic costumes for any Viking AIDS film ever made,
and the most authentic ethos for any Viking film ever made.
So he's definitely got that. So hopefully he's gonna bring
that to the table with this vampire film too.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Yeah, well, the accents of Northman, it didn't I thought
it was fine. Because it doesn't necessarily have to be
perfectly historical. It just has to be convincing that it
feels historical.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
I would have been fine with American accents. I doesn't
it doesn't really. Yeah, British accents even better, but like,
I mean, I don't. It doesn't like they don't the
accents doing the funny accent. It doesn't to me make it.
I don't think it's necessary when you're doing like like
you don't do it for Roman films. Everyone has to
talk like a duck, like like why do you have

(55:37):
to differ because it's not I mean, it's it's no different.
Like I think they should just have like a modern
English accent of some kind.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah. I So there's a documentary I watched recently where
they had like, you know, little re enactment things and
the Romans had a very latinate accent. And over so
many years, I'm so used to hearing Romans sound British, right,
It's kind of the thing like.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
The emperors still have a posh British accent.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Yeah, so what I hear these like actual Roman accents,
I'm like, Eh, that doesn't sound right.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
It's funny, Yeah, I mean, really the British aristocracy are
much more related to Vikings, so it would make more
sense to give Vikings post British accents. But if you're
going to give someone but it doesn't it doesn't. That
sounds jarring to people because they don't ass they don't
bring the two together. But the way that people bringing
these things together, especially in the cinematic world, isn't really logical.
Like the Viking music, there's a good videos about this.

(56:33):
What's become like the go to like medieval Barbarian music
has absolutely nothing to do with music for medieval times.
But it's a music using a cinematic context that evokes
the necessary vibes and that's what you're trying to create
with film, like the right vibes. So yeah, I mean, yeah,
it should be a cool film and I hope that

(56:54):
it does well. It's coming out at Christmas. He should
have put out for Halloween, but don't know why.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Well, this is one thing Christmas and you you talked
You've talked about this quite a bit, right, You're like
you're like the christ You're like there's like Santa Claus
and Baby Jesus and then Tom Rousell. Yeah, it's like
you talked about this at length, that Christmas is a
spooky time and as far as movie releases, scary movies

(57:21):
have come out, and this is why I thought it
was important that you brought out the Halloween vibe for
for films and what makes a Halloween film as opposed
to just a scary movie in general, because there is
something to it that makes it a Halloween film. Yes,
it's like the autumnal kind of atmosphere, but it's also

(57:43):
I think Halloween films have more to do with eight
like folklore and monsters and stuff like that, as opposed
to things that come out at Christmas time, which are
you know a lot of times they're like you know,
you get a lot of haunted houses, you get I
believe what it's like. A few years ago I went
to see something Man. My memory has been getting bad recently,

(58:04):
getting old. But yeah, so there's an important distinction between
these seasons and the movies that get associated with them,
and your idea.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
The Halloween is ghost stories in England traditionally, and that
goes into Dickens and nonwards into everything the Christmas for
ghost the Christmas ghost stories we have on the BBC.
I've gone on about this in many other streams, and
people are interested in you can find me talking about
it elsewhere, so I won't go over it again here.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But that's an important distinction to make
the Halloween vibe, because the Halloween vibe is associated with
these these kinds of trad ideas we're talking about with film,
you know, the settings, this kind of stuff. It's very important.
And because as we mentioned before, this is part of
the tradition of horror that goes all the way back

(58:54):
to the original spooky storytelling of old who knows what
that looks like. But and I would actually also like
to get in. I wanted to bring this up about
the monsters and why we love monsters so much.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Yeah, because we're coming up to the end, so this
sounds like a good sort of finisher.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
Yeah. The monster is something that has been present for
us for so so long. If you went back, like
I mentioned before, if you go back to the Stone
Age or the Bronze Age or whatever, the Ice Age
or whatever age, and you sit down with our very
ancient ancestors and you know, learn their language, like thirteenth Warrior,
does you know our language? I listened right, you could

(59:33):
listen to whatever. I don't know if you ever saw
a thirteenth warrior whatever, but.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Yeah, yeah, somehow it just sits around the fire and
an Arab and he learns how to speak olden noise
in like a few quick montage.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
It was that just popped in my head, like, how
would you understand them? Oh, thirteenth anyway, but anyway, you
sit down, you listen to what they're talking about. What
would they be telling about. They would talk about some
sort of some sort of beast in the woods, maybe
a great brown bear, or maybe some sort of troll
or something. And what would be the commonality between all

(01:00:06):
of these things, besides maybe the supernatural ones, is that
these things are coming to eat you, right, these things
are want to hunt you. This is something that is
very present in the modern mind. And this is something
that we really just yearn for for some reason. We
yearn for this time where we once existed on the
food chain. We don't exist on the food chain anymore.

(01:00:29):
And the technosphere of modern society, the comforts and the safeties,
wall to wall carpet, climate control, air conditioning, at least
here in the States. I know you guys don't use
air conditioning. But anyway, like we drive cars to and
fro where we're completely safe. Nothing's trying to eat us.
Unless you live in Alaska or some far remote place,
nothing is going to eat you. Right, And even if
you live out there, you got guns, you got stuff.

(01:00:51):
It's not a fair fight. We yearn for this, we
love this for some reason.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
We so we're revolt for it. We're like we're built
for We're literally built for killing prey and evading predators.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
So and I also think I also think it's because
they're like the stress that we feel from modernity, the
bills and this, and that all I gotta be late
for work is an unnatural stress. We don't feel natural
stress anymore. Where we have to be careful where we look, where,
we have to be careful how far we walk, because

(01:01:26):
something is going to hunt you and eat you. Right.
So when we go to these films, it's like this
ancestral memory of this time of when we did exist
on the food chain and nature itself was hostile to us.
So it's like this very very ancient thing that we
have to live through simulacra, through the surrogate activity. We

(01:01:47):
go watch these films that are very it's it's almost
I make the argument that the movie theater is almost
like it like it's almost like a ritual in and
of itself.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
So it's almost absolutely dollars first, some popcorn.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
No, but it's like it's like you go into the
like it's dark and it's cold and in whatever, and
it's like you're going into the You're going into like
the caves of Delphi or something to see an oracle,
right spooky and weird, and you go to this dark
place and you get immersed into this this grand screen
that sucks you into this this type of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
The word elic mysteries or something.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Yeah, the word entertainment right taine, to contain, to capture,
to enter, containment. It grabs you and forces you into
this thing. It forces this feeling upon you. So we
get this great uh, this great catharsis feeling this thing
that we don't even remember what it's called. We don't

(01:02:46):
even remember what it's like to feel it. But something
deep down, this ancient, ancient desire to feel that it
gets satisfied when we go do this, when we go
watch these films.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
These may I add to that that part of this
desire to see these monsters may manifest. To see this
life threatening, you know, existential threat right there with his
teeth and claws dripping with blood. Is that the existence
of such a monster necessitates the existence of a hero

(01:03:19):
to destroy it. And that's why I mean, Gkhesterton is
a Catholic, but you've got to give it to him.
He really brings those great little punchy quotes. He said.
The fairy tales don't just tell the child that dragons exist.
He already knows that. They tell him that they can
be killed. This is what the hero comes, especially in

(01:03:41):
the old ones, and destroys the monster. And that's what
is so brilliant I think about about horror and that
you think, I said in the last dream we did together,
and I said again, the popularity of the zombie film
is very much. I think was just because it presented
a plausible, not very a fantasy scenario where masculinity becomes

(01:04:05):
valuable again, where all the other tritis, culture of detritus
of civilization is suddenly casticide and the only thing that
matters is how strong and how fast and how clever
are you at evading an enemy, And that that would
suddenly make a lot of young men who feel that
they're not what, they have no value in modern society,
there would have a lot of value in such a
scenario suddenly, and that that that's obviously very appealing as

(01:04:27):
a sort of fantasy escape for them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Yeah, we use we use film and in art so
much as as a as a surrogate activity, as a
simulacra to feel this kind of stuff, because the system
that we have built, especially since Enlightenment, modern modernism and
liberalism and stuff, is so unnatural and monstrous. The only
thing it's really really good at is stopping the great man.
Is stopping is ensuring that it stifles any sort of

(01:04:54):
great man, any sort of hero. There can be no
hero because of egalitarian blah blah blah blah. That's a
whole other can of worms. So when we go, when
we see the hero kill the monster, that is something
that we need. It's just baked into our language and
who we are. Right. I have arguments with guys that,
especially in the United States, there's still this like the

(01:05:15):
like knee jerk against the idea of monarchy. And I'm
a I'm a heathen. I believe in in monarchy. I
believe in you know, that kind of thing, and I
think that that's the only real type of leadership that
is authentic. Right, That's a whole other conversation. But yeah,
oh my god, he looks he looks like it. But anyway,

(01:05:38):
this I the United States like this, this, this system
is really built to stop this. And the idea of
the king is baked into our language, right, we say,
like we just know inherently inside of ourselves that that's
that kings are good, right, that's king stuff you're doing
off king, King moves, go off king. Right. These are
things that are just baked into our language that we understand,

(01:06:00):
and it will return. There's there's you can't keep something
unnatural forever. The unnatural will eventually be consumed and destroyed
by the natural. The natural always wins, and nature always
wins because nature is justice, right, And this unjust, monstrous
system that we have, while we while we're forced to
exist within it, we seek out things like monsters, things

(01:06:25):
like heroes because most normal people probably can't have these
kind of conversations like we have talking about monster archetypes
and heroic archetypes, and you know, these themes and motifs
that go back in mythopoetics, and they don't know what
this stuff means. They just know that it feels right
and it feels good. So despite the crap that comes
out of their mouths that they've been trained to repeat

(01:06:46):
and regurgitate, when they go and they see a guy
like Solomon Kine or Van Helsing, go in and run,
run the stake through the vampire's heart and rain victorious
or conan, you know, removing the head of thought doom
and standing on the top of the steps, or or
at the end the lord of the rings when the
hobbits standing there and you got you got Eric Gorn.

(01:07:09):
They put the crown on his head. He's the true king.
It like feels like it's an ecstasy that we feel
when we when we watch.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
These things right, to see the hero conquer the monster.
It's it's it's a it's the Eliada says, it's it's
the Every victory of the enemy, of the of the
hear of us against the enemy, is the victory of
the gods against the dragon, is against the enemy, is
thor destroying or min Gander. Every time you kill an enemy,
you it's you are thought killing Jordaan Gander. It's the

(01:07:41):
recreation of the victory of the gods over chaos, and
we want to see that played out in as many
different ways as possible, whether it's in spaceships, or in
submarines or whatever kind of haunted houses, all this stuff,
it's got to be. It's telling this archetypal, eternal story
which comes from our ancestors.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
And in five what we talked about right at the beginning,
that so much about who we are as Heathens is
understanding the cycle, that the beginning and the end are combined,
our respect for the dead, you know, the understanding that
our fathers that came before us are superiors and we
are very much concerned with with the other world and
all of this kind of stuff. This is the same

(01:08:21):
exact thing, right, This is us living it through through
modern ways.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Ain't nothing changed, nothing changed. We're telling the same stories
that our ancestors did, even though we're using different technology
for the same people that they are reborn. And we
understand that the cycle is forever and that one day
we will return. So I in closing, I would like
to say that we you guys watching this, I know
that Jive, I know Tom, I know you got a

(01:08:48):
lot of great folks that are out in the community,
believers and great people that are in the community.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
It is we are.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
We are gifted storytellers, we are gifted artists. How many
people do we know in the community that are books,
you know, playing music, doing film, making games, do an
x y Z. We punched so far above our weight
as far as our creative our creative potential. We really
have the ability to get out there and and become

(01:09:15):
a core that that radiates outward with our creative essence.
Othen has the meat of poetry, and it's it's no
surprise that we have this exponential ability to create and
to inspire and to tell stories and do all this stuff.
So I would implore folks listening that are in the community,

(01:09:36):
Let's do it. Let's do it. We're aware of these stories.
We know that this is part of our tradition. Let's
continue it in film, in print, in animation. Let's utilize
all of the technologies that we have at our disposal
today and tell old stories forevermore, forevermore.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
He said it, brother, hail to those that listen, and everybody,
thank you for listening. And I want you to I
just wanted to remind you all to check out half
Fire Radio and where where a lot of the stuff
that Dave's talking about is going to be going on
in future, including Dave's horror film I hope to see
in about a year's time. So yeah, don't, don't. And
if you're a creator and you want to, if you

(01:10:18):
want to do something like that, and don't, reach out
to Dave and tell him about what abilities you have
and what you can do, because maybe you can collaborate
on something and do it something out.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
I love it. Any closing words, Dave, No, I just
want to say, mister Tom, thank you so much. We've
been We've been friendly for quite a while now. But
every time I come on with you, I get excited
because you know, I was one of your og I
think I subscribed to you back when who knows when,
Like you're interviewing bands and stuff, and I've watched you grow,
I've watched your timeline. I'm very very proud of you,

(01:10:49):
and I feel like I'm getting on the big stage
when I come on with you, and it's just a
it's a pleasure and honor to work with you and
collab with you over the years, and you're a great
friend the great.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Proud to work with you too, Dave. I wish you
all the best in everything you do. I want, yeah,
you to have all success and victories over the dragon,
like just like the heroes whose you're wanting to. All Right, everybody,
good night and happy Halloween.