Pagan Pilgrimage in Holy Europe with Aki Cederberg

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hello, and welcome to Jive Talk give book review today.
Going to be looking at this wonderful book translated from
Finnish into English by orki Aki Cedarbergh and it's called
Holy Europe in its English translation. But I'm not going
to be just chatting about it by myself as normal

(00:41):
for give book review. I've actually got the author here
with me. Welcome to Jive Talk.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Archie, Hello, good to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
It's a pleasure to have you on. Akie is famous
for especially in Finland, for his books, particularly this one
and the previous one, Journeys in the Karli Yuga, which
was about his journeys in India mainly and his spiritual
exploration as a polytheist, a Western polytheist living in India
and traveling in India. I first heard about him when

(01:13):
I took a trip. I took a ferry from Sweden
to Helsinki in twenty seventeen and found an obscure bookshop
on a back alley and inside the book the shopkeeper
recognized me. He said, oh, Survi, I have the jive
you must read Arkie cederbook. And I was like, well,
who's this person then? And then he told me about him,

(01:33):
and I wrote it down on a piece of paper
the name, and then a couple of years later, in
twenty nineteen, I read the English translation of Journeys in
the Carli Yuga and I did a review on Jive
Talk here where I listed it as one of the
best things about twenty nineteen. That was my favorite book
of that year. It was very interesting because, like Archie,

(01:54):
I had traveled in India, and not so much as
a spiritual exploration the sense that he had of Hinduism,
but more for myself my ancestry in India, like my
ancestors come from India. But like Oki, I thought that
he came to similar conclusions as him, that that this
is informative and useful for Westerners to understand our in

(02:16):
our time of spiritual crisis. But the answers ultimately don't
lie in India. They lie in Europe. And Aki said
he was going to return to this problem of European
spirituality with a book about Europe, and that's what Holy
Europe is. Is that a fair assessment, Yes, And it's a
wonderful book because it's it treats Europe as a holy

(02:39):
land the way a pilgrim would treat you know, Christian
Pilgrim treats Israel, or some of these Western seekers going
to India see India as this ancient holy land, where
Europe is an ancient holy land too, And especially interesting
to me because many of the places he's chosen in
the book are places that I've been to and you
may have seen them from my videos here answered I

(03:00):
on the other channel and survive the jive. I you know,
I went to CenTra, for example, Iceland I just got
back from. There's some a little bit in England, there's
a lot in Lithuania. The beginning on the Midsummer stuff
that I did in I went to them Midsummer thing
in twenty fifteen. So yeah, it's like seeing the world
my own experiences but through somebody else's eyes are very similar.

(03:23):
Sort we have a similar background because we're both Heathen,
both polytheists, both come from a kind of Western Easo
tersist traditions, similar tastes in general. So it was quite
interesting to see what when did you begin Holy Europe?
Was it like, had you finished publishing Journey's and the
Carli Yuga when when you began writing this book?

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yes, I had they kind of overlay. You know, there's
some Holy Europe kind of begins where Journey's in the
color Yuga leaves, and so yeah, there was a lot
of there's Oopsala and things sites like this that I
talk about Journeys in the Color Yoga that are also
in the beginning of Holy Europe. So there was an overlay.

(04:07):
And I mean, ultimately, I think they're part of the
same work. Every author, every also artist, filmmaker, they kind
of make one big body of work and it's usually
kind of just different facets of the same thing. So yeah,
I hope some days this will all be published in
like a massive in a collection, because they're not really

(04:30):
they're part of the same story. It's an ongoing story, ongoing,
unfolding story. But whereas Journeys in the Color represents about
a decade of my life, so does Wholy Europe. And
so yeah, these take a long time, unfortunately for me
to write these things because I'm one of those writers
there I have to leave it first and then write

(04:52):
about it because I do involve my own subjective experiences
in there. So it's like I want there to be
the historical aspect and sort of the delving into these
traditions on this more sort of general level, but also
then going into the to the personal pilgrimage of actually
going there. And I think you mentioned something which is

(05:13):
central to my work, especially to Holy Europe, that I've
always been annoyed when people speak of the Holy Land
and they're referring to some other place than Europe, And
what is this place that you've never been to that's
your spiritual center? And I think that's one of the
most fundamental aspects and points of the whole book, is

(05:35):
that the our Holy Land cannot be This is the
biggest problem of Christianity, is that the Holy Land is
always somewhere else than here, and it cannot. If you
want to be a rooted person and you want to
be deeply connected to the sacred, you have to be
connected to your own Holy Land, and that cannot be

(05:57):
some abstraction somewhere remote and far away. So that's what
I'm exploring in Holy Europe. Yes, and of course, and
I'm trying to view it in this light of everything
that I learned exploring the Indian esoteric tradition or the
branch of Indian esoteric tradition that I was initiated into

(06:21):
because I think there's a lot that we Europeans have
forgotten and that hasn't been preserved, especially in these sort
of practical ways in a way how you do things
and how the world is kind of viewed and operated with.
And I think that was a very good teaching for me,

(06:41):
which I then tried to apply in Europe in the
way I approach these things in Europe. But I've been,
you know, involved in the pagan spiritual path since I
was a teenager really like my whole adult and even
before I was an adult, I was, I was involved
in these things, and in Holy Europe, I'm trying to

(07:04):
sort of culminate everything that I've learned so far on
my path.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
And I note that his previous book, Journeys at the
Carli Yuga, was published in Finish in twenty thirteen. There's
quite a long time ago for some of you younger
listeners that this is a veteran of the polytheist and
also a pioneer of this new genre in a way,
which is pagan travelogue, holy pilgrimage literature or something. I'm

(07:30):
not sure if that's a good way of putting it,
but it's quite a uniquely unique invention as far as
I'm aware of your own.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Somebody said it's like a pagan Carowac or something.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I was like, okay, yeah, I find you're well, you've
got much more. I think unlike Caroac, you have a
bit more of a focus. It's a little bit Caravac
can be a bit disjointed. It's not so experimental in
that sense, but it is pioneering in another sense to
give people an idea of what favor of that stuff.
I just want to read a little passage from near
the end of the book, because Oki both his books

(08:06):
There's might have been polytheisis as say an esotericists, and
are influenced by some of the traditionalists who and I
tair to say, like you believe that we are living
in an age of decline, and here this is expressed.
According to tradition, we are living in a time of
great imbalance. This is the age of the last cycle,
when man has lost connection with himself, with nature and

(08:28):
with the transcendent. Everything that derives from this imbalance, all
the upheavals, calamities, and diseases are either consciously or unconsciously
caused by man himself. And there are a consequence of
his fundamental lack of connection and sense of higher order.
In the Finnish tradition, there is an understanding that as
a result of some tragic event, man can lose his soul,

(08:48):
his guardian spirit, or his self. I believe that this
is what we are experiencing when faced with the crisis
of modern Europe and Europeans today, and we have suffered
a collective loss of soul. So Aki, would you please
explain how you think that pilgrimage in this sense might
be an antidote to this, this malady, this problem of

(09:10):
the West.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yes, So I think that, as I said, as I
wrote there, I think the fundamental problem that we face
is a kind of stole loss, that we have sort
of misplaced or lost part of our inner being. And
so this book is called Holy Europe, and the Holy
here refers to the underlying essence of our culture, the

(09:35):
spiritual metaphysical sort of dimension of our culture, that is
the holy, the transcendent story. And where the transcendent and
this greater story is manifested concretely, is in the landscape,
Is in these holy sites, Is in these crossing over

(09:56):
places where we might touch or come in to contact
with the transcendent, because we can talk all we want
about the Transcendent and about the Holy, but if we
don't have an experience of it, it remains kind of staile,
It remains an intellectual idea. So in the holy places,

(10:19):
the sacred becomes manifest, it becomes real. And in the book,
this is my approach, is that to try to be
touched by this, I am physically traveling to these places
and describing these sites. Now, these sites are not limited

(10:39):
to strictly pagan sites. The whole of Europe is built
on a tension between Christianity and Paganism, and so the
landscape also reflects this. So you cannot you can't be
just like, Okay, I'll just go to pagan sites because
in a lot of these places the history has been
intervolved and Paganism in Christianity has existed also alongside each

(11:04):
other for a very long time. But these are the
places that you can access something maybe, And so this
is my quest to find these places. And in the book,
I've made this analogy many times. But the book has
nine chapters, and this is because I am exploring sort
of nine different worlds of the European world. Tree, So

(11:26):
there's different it's ranging from like the very north to
the very south, and different aspects of that world tree.
And I'm also trying to sort of define what the
European idea is, I mean, what the concept of Europe means,
because I'm not limiting it to or I'm not you know,

(11:46):
just talking about Europe as a place, but also as
some something deeper. And I'm looking at what are the
aspects of the Holy that are uniting or that are
in common with different European tribes because it's not all
the same. Of course, we have different families and different

(12:06):
traditions in Europe, so it's not one thing. But I
think that there's so much underlying similarities in the way
that we perceive and approach the Holy and how we
interact with it, that these are the kind of connections
that I am trying to point to in the book.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
You do conclude, as as I said already, that we're
in an age decline in which we lost this connection
to transcendent And you talk about this tension between Christianity
and paganism you just mentioned then, and so since Paganism
is a much smaller religion than Christianity at the moment,
it makes sense that the latter would be a force

(12:46):
for Christianity will still be a force for helping to
repair this connection, perhaps more so than Paganism, if Paganism
remains as small as it is now. But we're right
about this need to accept the tension between Christianity and
Paganism and suggest that a synthesis might be achieved. But
how might such a synthesis be achieved when they're quite

(13:08):
theologically and ideologically opposed.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
That's a very good question. And I struggle with this
so much myself, and in this book, you know, I
try to not be overtly anti christian or something, because
I just recognize it's such a fundamental aspect of European
culture and civilization. And I find the whole, you know,
ongoing these online debates between Christianity and Paganism, and you know,

(13:34):
it's so boring and redundant, and it's like it's not
we don't need to sort of take these these sides.
This is not a battle that anyone can win neatly,
because both Christianity and Paganism obviously are part of Europe
and they will remain so they're not going anywhere. But
Christianity has gone through changes, so of course I'm I

(13:56):
was trying to think of ways in which it could
be reformed into something or rooted. But I really don't know,
and I keep coming. This is something I struggle with
greatly myself, because I think it's there's such fundamental like
questions at the very ethos, the kind of fundamental aspects
between Christianity and Paganism. They're fundamentally so different in their

(14:19):
basic sort of approach to life that I don't know
if it's possible really to have a synthesis of it.
I guess we just have to sort of accept this war,
you know.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
And just you do talk about the grail mythos as
a sort of potential, I guess in the when you're
talking about like the Volian ideas of the Grail as
a symbol that is a Christian symbol potentially of pagan origin.
So has the Grail mythos itself been useful to you
for reconciling these opposing traditions.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
I think the Grail is probably I mean, it's among
the most powerful European symbols, and it's one of those
things which actually can and does unite Paganism and Christianity
because as a motif, it's something that pre existed and
you know, it was before the Christian aspects of it,

(15:10):
and then it has this Christian layer on it. But
it kind of combines things. And as far as symbols go,
I do think it's a useful and very it might
be the most strong European symbol because there's also equallevance
of what the grail is in these local pre Christian
pagan traditions, like in the Finnish tradition, we have something

(15:33):
that I think is sort of reminiscent of the same
same thing. And of course i'm talking symbology symbolically here,
that is what that grail is. And because I don't
remember if it's ever a love who talks about that
the grail is this. It's a sign of initiation. It's
where the sacred and the profane meet and where man

(15:54):
meets the transcendent, or man meets the divine, or man
meets the God. It's this moment of unity which is
symbolized of them in the form of a cup, and
a cup is something which you drink from, so you
imbide from the essence of the transcendent. So yeah, I
think there's a there's it's such a strong motif and
it's one of those things that does kind of represent

(16:14):
this union of these things, coming together, of these things,
and I think we can embrace we can embrace these
things as as Pagans.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
You know, well Evelyn didn't mention it, but one of
the and the early Indo European cultures of Northern and
Western Europe, one of the defining things of them which
named their name. Both of them, Corded Whare and Belbek
are named after vessels that are so important in their
religion that they have to be included in burials, and
they were used to contain alcoholic beverages. But they were

(16:45):
used in the burial rituals. And we don't really know
anything more about the primitive Indo Europeans use of these
vessels other than that they had to be included in
the burials and that they were so definitive, but evidently
that they had a divine association. And I've tried to
others have tried before me as well, to try and
link these up with later in the European myths about

(17:08):
holy beverage, you know, the meat of poetry or whatever.
But you know, that does seem to have been like
a divine alcohol ritual or something which was more than
just getting drunk in a mead hall, and it was
associated with death and with the with the gods. So
in that sense, maybe the grail is a continuation of something.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, and that's been That's one of these common aspects.
And if you look at the Germanic tradition, or the
Scandinavian tradition, the Phinic tradition, the Baltic tradition, the more
southern traditions, the Slavic traditions, there's always the I would
say one of the sort of combining aspects of these
rituals that these different pre Christian traditions have is the

(17:56):
idea that it's often involves a drinking of a holy liquid,
like that there's some form of holy drink that man
takes part of and offers some of also to the gods,
and the nature of that drink varies, Like in the
Greco Roman world is obviously wine, which is fundamental in

(18:19):
the whole formation of that civilization and culture, and in
the more northern part it tends to be meat, and
in the Finnic tradition it tends to also be a
special kind of beer or a meat that is often
connected with it as a divine origin, and then man

(18:40):
partakes in this and gives a part of it to
the gods. And I think this is such a central
ritual that you know, happens throughout all of these European
This is one of those aspects that I'm talking about, Like,
it's very similar that there's always this a holy communion
in a way, you.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
Know, where you're given a give a drink, you give
a libation to the gods and they then hopefully offer
you some of these intangible things kind of as a
reciprocal offering.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
And also the drink itself is always more than just
the wine on the beer is always has this otherworldly
quality and symbolizes the force of life and the life
flow which man then takes part of.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
It's soma and hama in the East as well. Soma
is so well preserved as a cult of soma among
the Aryans in India, but it's moved away from alcohol
to are different intoxicant. But the general you know, relationship
of this substance to the divine is the same as
what you've just described, so it's quite it's probably primary

(19:51):
I believe that the original drink was meat, because that's
the oldest one, and I think that the Celtic and
Germanic tradition is preser of that original one basically, and
so because well I think they used mead and Baltic too.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, in the Phinic tradition there's also mead, and meat
is often also sung of in in this way where
it's also like it's not just a drink, but it's
kind of like a flowing life force. So when when
in these so in the Phinic traditions, there's a lot
of these songs or all spells that you sing that

(20:26):
are preserved, and in this you often evoke or invoke
things that you you sort of want to be manifested,
and it's often used. It's often via these analogies of
a natural phenomena or something like that. And when you're
invoking a life force, you're often singing about this sort

(20:48):
of overflow of mead, of lakes full of mead, so
it becomes the lakes and the rivers of mead are
obviously not literal, but they're they're talking about the this
is the essence of life that's flowing, that's overflowing in power.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yes, very interesting. I wonder maybe you shouldn't go too
much into it in this interview, want to talk about
the book, but I do wonder how much Finnish mythology
comes from in New Europeans, because there were Finns have
so much ancestry from the original in their Europeans in Finland,
and also the Siberian migrants who brought Finnish Finnic languages

(21:26):
to Europe had also encountered other Indo Europeans in adjacent
to them before then as well. So it's quite possible.
And I think that I've speculated before that this relationship
of this drink to these this holy drink of it
was bearied with people and then these vessels is something
to do with the waters of the underworld, because there's

(21:47):
many Indo European myths where you have to get this
water and drink it, and I think like mead is
a symbolic version of the water of the underworld, these
rivers of Hell, which in the European myths will often
have the underworld as a place with waters in and
these waters, whether a river or a well, have something

(22:08):
magical about them, and even a god or a hero
will be involved in a journey to Hell to get
that water or met But I goln back to your book.
In the conclusion, you talk about how your homeland you
as an individual, extends beyond Finland to all of Europe.
Kind of like what you were saying about you wanted
to go from the Mediterraneans fast auth to the far North.

(22:30):
And what is it then that makes you a European
because as I was just saying, you're a finn So
you have this you're European, but Finn's also have this
extra identity stretching into Siberia, which you didn't touch on
in the book.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
I think it is a shared sense of history, spirit, culture,
and destiny. I mean it is a story. I'm in
the forward of the book, I kind of open the
Finnish history a little bit to readers who might not
be so familiar with Finland, because Finland is kind of
a borderland. You know, we are sort of at the edge,

(23:07):
the very northeastern edge of Europe, and we are right
next to Russia, and so we have to ask ourselves
like what are we are we? What are we part of?
Which story are we part of? Where do we find
ourselves at home? And Russia and the world East really
kind of has a different story that we are related to,

(23:29):
but that is it's fundamentally a little bit different. And
I think Finland is here at the edge of the
world has always been like that. It's always been kind
of this weird place, this liminal place a little bit.
And what I'm looking for in this book is this
sense of home. And I'm you know, this is one
of the themes of the whole book, is a home

(23:50):
in a both personal and sort of larger cultural sense
and what that means. And I think that means that
when a person sort of finds the internal reflected in
the external and he can find himself at peace in
a world which is familiar to him. And I think

(24:10):
this European there's a kind of sense of Europe. You know,
this is a kind of a romantic idea, perhaps more
than something I could draw on a map and be like,
this is the defining you know, borders of Europe. But
I do think it's a feeling and you can, especially
since that when you go outside of it, you can
be like, Okay, this is something different. This is a

(24:33):
different story and thing I'm interacting with. Whereas when you
get to Europe, you get that I know this world
and this is what I'm part of, and this is
my home. And I feel like that, and I've always
felt like that, and I have a very deep love
of Europe. And this book is a kind of a
love letter to Europe and to Europe that could perhaps

(24:54):
be if Europe sort of remember itself again, you know,
and woke up a little bit.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, I feel the same way. Traveling in foreign countries
in Europe is not the same as traveling abroad outside
of Europe at all. And I know that there's some
people that they don't maybe understand the idea of European
identity is very different from like Indo European or Phinic identity,
Like I don't the idea that I would have a

(25:21):
greater connection to Iran and Finland because they speak in
their European language is just not really, it's not real.
That's a kind of completely made up, like intellectual concept
in the European languages exist, and the Indo Europeans existed,
but the idea of like a modern Indo European identity
doesn't exist. But some judahistorical circumstances, like Finland has been,

(25:42):
you know, because of the Baltic the geography, and because
of the history that the Lutheran Church is tied to
the west and the South. But because of the way
Finnish nationalism has been a reaction against you know, Swedish imperialism,
et cetera. It has sometimes resulted in people like Finnish
nationalists wanting to tie their identity more to the outside

(26:04):
of Europe, to that Siberian peoples who speak a Finnic language.
But my experience of Finland is I'm not traveled in Siberia,
but my experience of Finland is it's very much European,
European architecture, European people, large European ancestry, with European character.
But you know, how do you feel about that kind
of Finnish nationalism.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
No, I see what you're saying, and I think there's
definitely a truth to that, truth to that. I think
it's been said recently that Finns have only recently emerged
from the forest and entered European civilization, and I think
that might be true to a certain extent. You know,
we were one of the last countries, along with the Baltics,
to be Christianized, and it actually took a long time,

(26:47):
and there were several crusades into Finland because the Finns
were quite persistent in their ways. The Swedes would come
and convert us to Christianity, and then they would leave
and we would Fins would taunt them and run into
a lake, for instance, this is a lake I mentioned
in the book, the Regret Lake and wash off the

(27:08):
baptism and returned to their payways. And so they had
to conduct you know, another cruisader to film to do this.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
But I remember there's another similar account from the Baltic
of people washing off baptism. So it seems like a
pan Finic Baltic sort of tradition of was emerged of
undoing the baptism and cleaning yourself of it.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, very interesting. So it survived a long time here,
these things. And what I always say is that, yeah,
it might be true that we've only recently entered European
civilization and left the forest, but the forest hasn't really
left us. You know that the memory of these things
is still quite recent. The people keeping up this oral tradition,

(27:50):
we're still alive, you know, a few generations ago. And
that's not the same in Sweden or the rest of
the Nordic countries, for instance. You know, those traditions of
paganism died out much earlier there, and somehow they survived
here because this was a peripheral place in a small
place and a small people, so these were kept alive

(28:13):
longer here. And I think there's also like a common
sense of a northern ness. I mean, the one of
the union common aspects between the Germanic tradition and the
Baltic tradition and these things is a northern nests. I
think there's a maybe not emphasized enough, but there's a

(28:35):
different spiritual tendency among people of the north than of
people in the south. So I find that there's all
these layers to identity. Of course, I'm a Finn, I'm
a Southern Finn, and I'm a Finnish person, and then
I'm Scandinavian, I'm a Nordic person, and then I'm you know,

(28:55):
a Northern European, and these are like layers. But you know,
layers don't mean that they don't exclude each other. And
I find this sort of isolation that some nationalists tend
to have. I don't plan it to be a very
positive thing. At this point in history. There was a

(29:17):
huge cultural and historical need for Finland to have very strong,
a very strong nationalism when it was being formed as
an independent nation, and all these things, they were very
very important that Finns stood up and took their place
and took their right to their language and independent and
self determination. But at this point in history, to only

(29:41):
focus on a specific country is to disregard the overlaying
unity and the commonalities that we have in terms of
our destiny with other Europeans. So I do I'm trying
to inspire this sense of commonality and eternity among Europeans

(30:02):
and to see themselves as part of the same different
branches of the same spiritual world tree that we do share.
We have so much more in common than we have
dividing us, and I think Europeans have this kind of
tendency to focus on the very minutia and the sort

(30:23):
of little things that are true that are different among us,
but then completely overlook the larger things that we do
have in common very deeply, and I think it's kind
of a europe is still being born. I mean, it's
not done. I think this is the time that Europe
needs to rise up and become something and even more
in this world political climate, Europe needs to become something

(30:46):
that it hasn't perhaps been yet. So I'm really much
for a Europe as a cultural and political force at
this point, because.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
All identities are constantly negotiated throughout history and constantly you know, redefined,
and it's it's an ongoing process. But I definitely think
that Europe is a real existing thing. The europeanness exists,
and not just as like in our minds. Because I
once took a small boat from Turkey to a Greek

(31:17):
island and the difference was just immediate, like this is
one Turkey is lovely place, but it doesn't. It doesn't
feel very European, except maybe in parts. But then that
Greek island just just a few you know, visible from
the coast. When you're there, it just felt European. And
I can't quite explain why, but it was, you know,
it's just it's just different suddenly. But moving back towards

(31:39):
the idea of the holiness of Europe and the religious
aspect of your of your book and of these pilgrimages,
you wrote several times about not wanting to just revive
the dead religion of the past, or just taking empty
rituals from the past. And it's quite critical of an

(32:00):
undefined type of modern paganism, perhaps but forgotten symbols of
the past and things like that. But for Pagans, our
religion and our sacred symbols do come from the past.
The ruins and things that you use and celebrate in
the book are from the past. So what kind of
revivalism is it that you want to avoid describing in

(32:20):
the book.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, it's a very good question, and it's it's you know,
people always say the larp stuff and everything, which kind
of is a little little tedious whenever Europeans celebrate any
traditions which involve like arts and crafts and things, and
people like, oh, that's that's larpy. And I think it's
such a it's a silly argument. I mean, this is
our material culture and this is material heritage, and and

(32:45):
I am not against those things of the past in
the way, but there is a tendency of superficiality within
paganism that's really strong, where it's we're only focusing on
the outer appearance of a certain period in time, and
we're imitating the life ways of say some villager hundreds
of years ago, living in a completely different time and situation,

(33:10):
and we're neglecting the inner essence of those things. And
I think, I'm this is what I'm saying, like, if
something is real, the inner essence needs to take new forms.
It can't always be looking backwards. There needs to be
an aspect of something that looks to the to the horizon. Again.
I mean, I always quote Ezra Pound, the American poet,

(33:33):
because he kind of did this. He was very rooted
in the Greek traditions, in the Greek Homeric legends. His
contos begin by retelling some of these. He was primarily
rooted in those things. Then he was rooted in the
Trubuter traditions of the Pyrenees, where he traveled by foot

(33:54):
and collected all this you know, poetry, and so yeah,
these are two very strong wrong pagan streams in Europe.
But he said make it new. He was a modernist poet,
so he believed that if the inner essence is there,
the form needs to be new. There needs to be creativity, new, exciting,

(34:15):
vital forms, and not just this sort of role playing
or imitation of things. Of the past, because in these
you know, most people, when they're looking for answers to
difficult questions in life and a deeper sense of meaning
and all these things that that religion kind of serves,
they're not necessarily looking for, you know, to dress up

(34:37):
in a certain way and have like the external appearance
to be the first thing, but they're actually looking for
the inner essence of things. And I think there's been
way too much emphasis on Maybe it's just what I've
been seeing, but I think there's been too much emphasis
on the external instead of the internal, and in this way,

(34:57):
like I've seen this in some finish groups, for instance,
where it's like everything is in past tense and every
thought is sort of told in this way that this
is what these people used to believe. Well, we are
those people, like we should say what we believe now
and not talk about it as these people some in
the distant past who did this, because it's kind of disjointed.

(35:21):
Because we are those people. We are our ancestors living
right now. So if these things are a reality, they
need to be sprung from sort of an internal well
and take new forms, vital forms.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
You think that's art, but this new form the new
forms that it should take will be artistic expressions, I suppose,
because you give a lot of room for artists in
the book. It's not just about, as you say, not
just pagan holy sites. You talk about the Nuncio in
Italy who's very keen on a cult of art, and
Ezra Pound and these kind of artistic eccentrics which aren't

(35:55):
directly associated with Europe's holy places. That I guess you
see these as important for the book because they represent
a method by which the holy might be rediscovered.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, I mean, who were the singers? These are the
singers of our time. These are the people manifesting the
divine with their songs and their art. And it's always
been the artists who have manifested the divine, whether they
be storytellers or you know whatever. But this is we
have to also recognize who these people are in our
own time, because these are the people that can really

(36:31):
manifest the divine to us through their works.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
I'm going to go to Germany this summer to make
a new film, and I've decided going with Northern Germany.
I'm like trying to do a sort of pilgrimage that
I do these pilgrimages for video forms as my art
form documentary. But I trying to find the roots of
the English in northern Germany. But also inspired by your book,
I want to go to the kunsttta Bossart, which is

(36:59):
one of the locations that you visit that is not
an ancient holy place, but it's an artistic, a modern
art place that is inspired by ancient Nordic mythology and
things like this, and in this, in this case, in
in Wagner's medium of total art, which I think that
at the time Wagner Opera was total art because it

(37:21):
encompetted different forms of art together. But I think cinema
is the current contender for the greatest medium for total
art as far as I can see. But yes, would
you like to see more such projects like that? Constet
how do you say unto you want to see more

(37:44):
things like that for Wagnerian total art, or how how
do you imagine it might manifest in the future.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well, all of the artists that I speak of in
the book, I mean they draw on this well of
European spiritual tradition. They're all drawing from the mythos. They're
not taking these ideas to what they're doing in a
vacuum they're taking. They're often inspired directly by the gods.
I mean, boss Art was inspired by a period of
blindness where he identified with the god Odin or Botan

(38:14):
in Germany, and he has a whole place called the
Edda Hall there which is all inspired by the Nordic myths.
And there is the majority of the artists I speak of,
they're always rooted in tradition, but they're expressing it in
a new and vital form. And yeah, of course I
think that's vital to a culture and a spiritual tradition.

(38:35):
Also really surviving is that it produces sort of new
life in the form of art, because art is really
the way that we relate to the cosmo surround us,
and how we can create a sort of harmonious coexistence
with the world is to have a sense of harmony
between nature and man and the divine. And usually these

(38:58):
gesam kunstki places you know where I include a lot
of these places in the book, besides ancient you know,
holy places in churches and temples and such, because these
are really sort of the modern manifestations of how spiritual
tradition can manifest itself. In physical locations where artists build

(39:19):
shrines that are rooted in the tradition. And these are
incredibly inspirational places, I find, because this is where kind
of the religion takes its form, and Europe is full
of these places. We just need to sort of recognize
that that these do exist. And yeah, and you know,
the I read a book about Wagner because people sometimes

(39:43):
say that Wagner was misinterpreting the myths and all these things,
and Colin Cleary wrote a book about the Ring Cycle
where he actually says that the that Wagner was actually
a bart, that he was continuing the tradition just as
the ancient singers would have, and that this this is
actually the most prominent modern manifestation of the myths is

(40:03):
actually Wagner and his cycle. Now I think it's something
to at least think about and take into consideration. And
but I do found that this is how we sort
of the holy is repressed. It takes new forms to
us via art, via these things that you can experience,
and having experienced, for instance, the Ring Cycle myself, I

(40:26):
mean they are kind of really religious experiences because you
spend so much time in this dark place and you
just immerse yourself in this myth, and yeah, there's something
truly profound I think in those.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yes, I've attended to operas from the Ring Cycle and
yeah I did have it did feel like a religious experienced.
I think his music is divinely inspired. But at the
same time, I also, well, do you say that the
people who criticize his interpretation of the myth? I think
have a point because he's his ultimate belief is that
the gods had to move aside for man, which I

(41:01):
think is that's a very modernistic view, and I don't.
I think that's what we need to go, that's what
we need to move past. It was to rediscover a
holy Europe. Really, But I mean, he's definitely an amazing artist.
And I even once in twenty twelve attended a blot
where they had a CD player and they pressed they
had something from Wagner's opera to plec to like bring

(41:22):
people into the SA credits thing, which is very modern.
But it did. It did kind of work. Actually, it
was an interesting way of doing it. But how did you,
I mean, going back to kunstte Bossard did that feel
to you? How did that compare, for example, to going
to an ancient barrow and pouring out libations like did

(41:43):
you feel the sacred in this art art installation, art
gallery place? What is not gallery but in this total
art creation.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Well, these these places vary, and these gardens in a way,
they're kind of the the sort of ideal, the sort
of images of the divine, and we can sort of
immerse ourselves in the image of the divine. But maybe
they're not the same though as some holy place which
is ancient. Perhaps because usually the holy places lie on

(42:15):
markers in nature, they're connected to something that man has
found there very early. I mean, if you look at
where European holy sites are located, they're always located where
there is a strong presence of some kind a mark
of nature, whether that be a mountain, a river, a lake,
a sacred grove, a cave, a tree. There's always a

(42:40):
powerful presence of nature in that spot where the holy
side is. Because it is thought that not all places
are the same, and places have a personality, they have
a spirit. In finish, we call it a haltier. But
there is some sort of spirit or guardian which you
should good and can interact with and which can touch

(43:03):
you in places. So in some places where you go
which are ancient. It's a different experience than going to
some you know, art garden that's built in the last
hundred years or so, where the art can be very
impressive and the experience can be very inspiring and immersive.
But it's a different kind of experience, I would say too,

(43:25):
from these these ancient places where they can really touch
you in a different deeper way, where it's unexpected, like
you really don't expect to be touched in this visceral way.
And that's rare for me. I mean, I'm not some
very sensitive person or something, so I don't feel things
connstantly or something. And I talk about this also in

(43:47):
the book that you know. Often we travel to these
sites and we sort of we have a feeling that
we should feel something, but it's not. We're not getting it,
and we feel a sense of disconnection, like if we're
on us, we're like, Okay, something happened here and something
should I should feel something, but I don't know if
I do. And there's a sadness to that. But then

(44:07):
there's moments where you go somewhere and completely unexpectedly, it's
like something touches you and I've experienced that a few times. Perhaps,
I mean, it's it's kind of rare, but those things
are the kind of like the ultimate that you are
looking for is what the Indians called the datashan. The
beholding with the divinity actually manifests to you in some

(44:28):
very concrete and sort of unfathomable way where it's not
an intellectual exercise or it's not something you can really
prepare for, but it's actually something that feels transcendent. So
I think there's a difference between the artists creations and
things that have been you know, that have markers of nature.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yes, And for those pagans listening, it is I know,
especially disappointing when you have put a lot of effort
to go somewhere and you don't feel that divine presence,
or if you've actually felt the find presence in a
place before and then go back again and don't have
it the second time. But that's just how it is
sometimes there and sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't.
But I mean one of the exceptions I kind of

(45:11):
felt because I usually acknowledged the distinction you just made
between these like modern places that might have some pagan
relevance than an actual ancient holy place. But when I
was in twenty twenty one during the lockdowns, I went
to Cintra in into the gardens that you went to,
I can't. They're called regalia. And I when I entered

(45:34):
the cave from above, and then the spiraling staircase down
this shaft into the underground, and then into the darkness,
and then you come out again and emerge in the light.
Now I know this was built by an eccentric aristocrat,
not by ancient pagans, and that his belief is probably
very different to anything I have. But although and there

(45:55):
was even like COVID stewards, like making sure you didn't
take your mask off when you went inside, all very
profane and unpleasant modern kind of associations. Nevertheless, the effect
of the architecture, if it was, affected me very deeply.
This process of moving through this environment. And I imagine
that that is the kind of architectural techniques or like

(46:18):
processes that were used in ancient rituals, for example in
Greece with the with the culture the eleusis, there was
a similar like movement through this building into from darkness
into light. So do you wrote about that that same
place in the in the book, and I mean, how
did you feel, how did the impact of this quite

(46:39):
modern architecture affect you.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
I think that that's that's that's a good example. And
I think Quinta, I mean, it's the place that you
describe is called the initiation well, the well of initiation Initiado.
It's it's debated whether the order that you should go
in there is actually from top down because kind of
in the if you look at the esoteric traditions that

(47:04):
they were involved in, perhaps that built that place, it
would have been the other way around. It would have
been that, you know, visit the INTERIORA how does it
go visit the interior of the earth.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
I didn't have the choice because the covid stay.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
I know. Yeah, I think the proper way to do
it is that you enter the garden and you enter
these caves, and you wonder in these caves first, and
then you come to the bottom and you ascend and
you come up at the top of this thing, and
not the other way around. I think anyway, when.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
I was by the way you enter from you go
from darkness to light.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
In other case, yes, yes, yes, yes, And in a
way when you enter from the top, you enter the
garden of earthly delights. When you come out, you come
into this beautiful garden. So there is that aspect too.
But when I was the first time, and this relates
to an aspect I also write about in this book,
is this kind of idea of solastagia, you know, as
opposed to nostalgia, that the place is still there, but

(48:02):
the physically you can. You can visit a place once
and then you visit it another time, and although the
place is still there, that the experience of that place
has for some reason been so much altered that you
cannot experience it anymore. It's not accessible, and so the
it's it's kind of like off limits. The gate has
been closed. And that's the way Quinta Regaletta has become

(48:25):
for me, because I've visited it twice after I wrote
about it the first time, and the first time I
was there was well over a decade ago where you
could just wonder there by yourself. There was no restrictions,
a lot of more of the caves were open that
are open these days. You could just it was like
a mystery garden and you could just take your time,

(48:46):
spend the whole day it wasn't very much people there.
You could just wander around, you know, and explore and
do things and then coming back, you know, ten years later,
and I went there also, I think I went there
shortly after you did, actually, and then suddenly there's like
you have to just only enter from one way. There's
a line like going into like a nightclub, you know,

(49:08):
like with the doorman, and then there's like hand spray,
like hand sanitizer by the entry to the initiation cave.
And it's just ridiculous, like this is so far from
an experience of you know what this used to be
that it was like almost you know, it was inaccessible,
and it was very sad. In a lot of places

(49:28):
like now, this is a problem, and I think this
is something that I think should be paid attention to,
is that we shouldn't like we should view these places,
whether they're ancient places or current places as what is
the purpose of these places? What was the experience that
they were supposed to allow for the person entering. Now,

(49:49):
of course, in the term of something small like the
garden that we were talking about in Cinra, that was
probably not meant for more than just a handful of people.
Really isn't meant to be a site from mass visits.
So I understand there's a problem where it's supposed to
be some esoteric experience for like one person, and then
it's there's tens of thousands of visitors daily. But at

(50:12):
the same time it's we shouldn't view our ancient places
of historical value as only historical places. We should still
treat them and try to access them as living sacred places,
you know, as And in this way, I think it's
good to look at how Indians how they approach holy places,

(50:33):
little shrines and trees. They always approach them as a
holy place and give offerings and with respect, and they
do the process as it should be, and we Europeans
instead we approach them as you know, something happened here
in the past. We have no idea what it was.
People are excavating and we can't know really anything they did,

(50:55):
and we shouldn't like this is the way that even Uppsala,
now you know, I was there in Uppsala by the
by the turn of the year, and it was I
noticed that it has become forbidden to go up on
the mounds now that they're signs setting up that you
shouldn't shouldn't go.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
I didn't catch where did you say that was your Forbidenasala. Yes,
but they had to do that because the to let
the grass get back on it. I think like they
they the fence them off for a while, but then
they'll let people back on eventually, I hope.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Well this was in the winter when there was like
a meter of snow there.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Or people to boggin in the in the winter on
they I go in there in the winter and I've
got video of that, like children to boggaining on it,
which is cute in a way but also kind of
maybe not respectful to an ancient king is appropriate, but
it shows exchanging attitudes to it, to the barrows.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
But I think in a way, it's this idea that
we need to still we need to be able to
access these places. We need to be able to go
to them and commune with the divine as as the
people of the past. It they in a ways, a
lot of holy places become sort of historical you know sites,
and they're so heavily regulated that that you cannot access

(52:11):
that place anymore. And I understand that it's a problem
when things become you know, too famous and like you know,
there's too many people visiting, it becomes a problem.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
But yeah, yeah, it's a problem, especially for US Pagans
as well as for Christians using some of the ancient places,
because on the one hand it's like an active religion
taking you know, religious site, but also many people want
to see it just as a historical place and they
need to be given access, and there's some to manage
something like that. It's difficult. A lot of these cathedrals

(52:40):
now in Europe, the ancient cathedrals start charging entry, which
probably is theologically forbidden. I don't think you're allowed to
tide joy. I don't know Chastian theology that well. But nevertheless,
but if you say you're going into prey, then you
can go for free. Similar to Stonehenge, you're you have
to pay twenty five pounds for access.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
The side.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yeah, twenty five pounds, so it'sbout thirty year old or
something like that, but you can get for free if
you just walk round it and park on the thing.
It's not as free to get. But if you are
one of these neo pagan kind of druid people, dubiously
authentic forms of polytheism that some people practice. They are
given free access to the site to party there are

(53:25):
basically to having a rave at the midsummer and mid
winter solstices, which is good that they're making those allowances,
but that's more of a concession to like the New
Age movement and it's protests in the eighties at the site,
rather than to an actual historically attested form of paganism there.
But then again, we know that different forms of religious

(53:47):
rights took place there over the years. They changed over time,
so perhaps this raving is just the latest situation, although
it doesn't seem to me very religious, that's just my interpretation.
But going back to like the non conventionally holy sites
of the book, another thing you give a lot of
space for besides artists is sort of people who are

(54:11):
adjacent to or associated with, like the art of the
National Romantic period and even later on Nazi adjacent esotericists
like Otto Iran and Carl Villigert. How can they inform
the spirituality of European peoples because you clearly take an
interest in them and earlier ones presidents like Alista Crowley

(54:33):
as well. You mentioned reading doing a reading of Croley
for a deceased friend. Many would reject them, if not
for political reasons, because they aren't necessarily following authentic traditions.
Kind of like if you're like a polytheism you want
to be like authentic or traditionalist, you might be wary
of the theosophists or some of the national romantic ideas

(54:54):
or like or some of the Nazi esotericists. So do
you think they represent a hazard or this something that
we need to look at there that was perhaps interrupted
by the war due to overzealoustine artification that we need
to recover and continue.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Well, the Crowley thing is just I mentioned that because
my deceased friend was a you know, student of Crowley
and stuff. So I did it more in sort of
in honor of him than as a personal you know,
I'm not trying to mix in Crowley and all these things,
but obviously, you know, I've been involved in these things
for a long time that I've been brewed in many

(55:32):
kettles and met a lot. And I think also Crowley
as a person, you know, and or as a phenomena,
you have to kind of take him into account on
some level. But yeah, then coming to the German stuff,
I mean, the German chapter of my book called Lebenspa,
which means three of Life, is the longest, probably the
longest chapter of the book, and that was the most
kind of heavy one because obviously you cannot approach, you know,

(55:57):
the subject of paganism or such things in me without
within you know, one minute of coming face to face
with the past involving the Nazis. So I had to
tweet it. I had to to deal with that subject,
and I was trying to do it fairly in a
way where I would try to to sort of see

(56:20):
what they were doing in a in an honest way
and to portray them in an in an, you know,
intellectually honest and well grounded way. Also to look at
why people nowadays are attacked, because this this whole sort
of weird Nazi occultism is a weird, you know, current

(56:41):
phenomena that people are drawn to. And I also wanted
to sort of deal with why that is, what what
it is that makes that subject matter and that area
so alluding to a lot of people. So I was
trying to be fair. You know that there there is
an alert, there's certainly a magnetism to a lot of
that stuff, but why is it? So I was trying
to deal with that and and like to deal with

(57:04):
the weight of these things in Germany traveling around to
these places, because it's it's such a heavy shadow that
history casts on that subject matter, which you know, ultimately
still represented a very short, very explosive time in history,
but considered quite short and certainly wasn't like the main
agenda of the Third Reich to further these things. It

(57:27):
was a you know, a quite liminal phenomena. And they
were also interested in these things as much as they
could use them. They had a very specific ideology which
really isn't paganism, So it wasn't like paganism with tanks,
you know, as some people imagine, like it really wasn't.
It was a very modern ideology that you know, it

(57:49):
could use aspects of Romanticism of the past to further
their their their aims, and obviously they did so with
a great success, you know, in terms of their their
sthetic use of things. So it's just a subject you
cannot avoid dealing with this subject matter, and there's crossover
a lot with this stuff, so and dealing with eve

(58:10):
a lot. And if you're dealing with Evela, then you're
also you know, Viligo was kind of involved in rejecting
evil and all these things back in the day, and
so there is like crossover a lot in these things,
and I think we have to try to be clear
sighted about what that was and what actually paganism paganism is,

(58:33):
and what the tradition really is, as like as in
opposition to kind of a German early twentieth century occultism,
which was still really heavily influenced by theosophy and all
that and was very like tied to its time and
the phenomena of its time. But I was trying to
explore this whole difficult subject matter in a way to

(58:58):
bring it to light way instead of being you know,
moral less because there's there's so much of this like
silly you know, Hitler, black magician kind of stuff, which
which is yeah, so it's just become a pop culture
thing now.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
So it's good that you are just like something like
the Weblsburg Castle having the that that designed the son
and Rad from the tier Scheiber a variant based on
earlier Saber. Because it's in the news now because Danzig
from the Misfits has released a new T shirt with
this with this sign on it and it's caused a
lot of controversy, but this is just like one little

(59:37):
thing that was put on a mosaic in a castle somewhere,
and now it's become a much bigger symbol in the
post war era and much more widely used than it
ever was in Nazi Germany, and even in the Pagan era,
it's just like a few that little dangling brasses that
women wore on their dresses for some reason, to protect
them from evil of some kind. But now it's like, well,

(01:00:00):
it can be a sign of paganism, a sign of
Nazi sympathies, it can be it's certainly now a sign
of heavy metal music or whatever for Danzig as well.
But it's quite interesting how that changes, so it had
to be addressed. But I think, yeah, it's fair to
say that the Nazis weren't pagan, they just used some
Germanic pagan aesthetics. But when you're talking about these esotericists
who are adjacent to them, like Otto Iran, it's something else.

(01:00:22):
And like you use Otto Iran just after Iran, not
in the Liban's Realm chapter in Germany. But I think
when you go to the country of the Cathars, where
I've also visited a lot of those castles and the Pyrenees.
I guess he was in those areas as well. But
did you did you find that his frankly often wrong
ideas about what the Kafars were useful for understanding the

(01:00:47):
spiritual significance of Langadok and this region, the valley of
the Dordoin in southwestern France.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
I mean, he's he's suddenly. I mean, he was a poet,
you know, first and foremost. So yeah, I think, of course,
you know, he got things wrong, and he I think
his view of the Cathars is quite different than what
most people nowadays would say that Catholicism constituted. But he
still visited a lot of those places, and he wrote

(01:01:17):
a lot, and he collected a lot of very interesting
legends and things, and he was a pretty I mean,
some of his writing is pretty good, and his life
story is fascinating. And he also relates to this idea
of the seeker, which is, you know, one of the
motives also in that chapter is is this seeker? And
it doesn't mean that if you're a seeker that you

(01:01:38):
always find and or you end up in the right place,
Because the seeker can also end up being sort of
consumed by by the quest itself. And I was talking
here about several individuals who were exploring areas of prehistory
and mythology when they were very young, because they included

(01:02:00):
also the finish figure Yurievon Grenhagen, who stayed with Really
Good and was very good friends with Really Good and
mosakes to sort of take care of Really Good because
he was getting old and drinking too much wine and
had health problems and things. But you know, it's it's
interesting to see what happens when these people are they're

(01:02:20):
very idealistic, and they're I think genuinely good souls seeking things,
and then they put into this position where a big
state power there of course completely broke nobody has any money,
and then they're like, here comes some very influential person
who's like, I'm going to give you unlimited resources almost
to do go travel and find the grail and find

(01:02:42):
these things, you know, and then obviously they at some
point they become entwined in the battle between two world
serpents where there's you cannot escape unharmed, and yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
It could happen to you or I if we were
if either of us were offered a massive grant by
some government, I would I imagine you would say yes.
I'd say yes. But then obviously if that government went
on to do questionable things, then you have to be
associated with those things by by having accepted that. But
artists need money, they need to get at what they can,
I guess. But I'd like to just quickly recommend because

(01:03:17):
a friend of mine is a neofolk project called Paie Newman,
and he lives in the Pyrenees, and he did a
whole extracts of read of otto Ran readings of Extra
Martin lu Yeah, Lucifer's Court. Yeah, yeah, you know him.
It's a good it's a good neo folk album with
about the otto RAN's like experiences of that region of

(01:03:39):
the world. Is quite quite an interesting creation actually, of
artistic exploration of that whole thing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Yeah, I recommend people go listen to it. You can
download it for free. Think it's called Lucifer's Court and
the Pirate Movement is the project. And yeah, he does
a wonderful reading from Lucifer's Court, which was the second
book by otter Ran, and he does really great musical
soundscapes to accompany it. But I mean Yeah, he's in

(01:04:07):
all of his work anyway, it's really good, So I
recommend people check him out. And there's a book coming
out about otter Ran very soon by Richard Stanley, who's
this movie director and he's done a lot of He
did the movie about Otteran, the documentary called Secret Glory,
and so he's done decades of research and he's putting

(01:04:29):
out a pretty lengthy book about otter H now in English,
which should be out in a few months. I believe
the traditions.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Keeping up keeping out for that, and I also recommend
people do visit that area of the Europe because it's
stunningly beautiful. It's a really lovely part of the world.
It does have a matter, you say in the book,
has a kind of magical feeling. I don't. I can't
explain it myself. I did a video called Cathedral to
Cave where I show that that area and I compare
like the Albi Cathedral is like the built for the

(01:04:59):
albutentially casa to the rock Paleolithic cave art inside the
nearby mountains. So it's like you've got this huge span
of history tens of thousands of years all in this
little area and there's something very mystical about the area.
I don't know if it's from the prehistoric is as
hunder gatherers or the Templars and or the or the

(01:05:20):
Cathars or whatever it is, but it's there, and it's
a palpable sort of energy and a lovely part of
the world.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Yeah, and it's that's really one of the places again,
like that you can access something in because it feels
a little that's one of the persons that are really
I've gone back to and that I really feel drawn
to go back to again because there's a strange sense
when you go there. It's like it's wild and sort
of untamed. And these places are really accessible. They're often

(01:05:50):
if you won't go to the holy places and sacred
places there, they're not on maps. You have to kind
of know somebody who will take you to these places
or at least tell you where they are. I mean
I had a hand drawn map, for instance, that I
was following to go into certain places, like literally somebody
I knew drew in my journal like a like a

(01:06:10):
map of places, and I followed and went to these places.
And I think there's a strange sense of wildness and
sort of freedom, but also danger there because there's no
safe rails, there's no like elevators and tourist centers. It's
pretty sort of you can access these wonderful places without
the safety net.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Feel like there's a bit scary to go up in
the castle because you feel very high up and you're
like an eight hundred year old building just standing up
the top of a mountain, very odd ceiling, and it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
This over regulated, protected kind of sense at all. It's
like you're you're really in these places, and it also
sort of feels like you're sort of a little bit
outside of the modern world. You know, the cell phone
doesn't really reach that well, and you're sort of you're
like at a distance from the modern world. And really
it's a wonderful experience. I really found a lot of

(01:07:05):
solace in that. It's a wonderful The Pyrenees are a
wonderful part of Europe. Really.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
They embrace their medieval heritage a lot in that area,
like they go all out for it. I remember I
went to a Renaissance medieval fair in the Court Socier
in that region, and then the whole town was decked
out like a medieval It felt like a medieval town
and medieval performers doing medival music all over the streets
and people wearing it was like the whole town suddenly
became medieval, but it's a lovely place to go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
Yeah, this was for relates to Sorry to I if
you add this, but I do think it relates to
one of these things we talked about earlier, relating to
the ancient sites and Uppsala Agama Upsala in such places
that you know, there really are these sites there that
can really touch you, like, what is that thing? What
is the thing that Romans called the genus Loki, the

(01:07:54):
you know, the spirit of the place, or that we
call the guardian spirit, and the finning tradition that if
you approach the places there, there's something in that place
where there seemed to be more easily accessible or something.
I mean, when I went to I described this in
the book, when I went to Montagneur, the Cathar Castle ruined,
I didn't expect anything. I went up there and the

(01:08:17):
place really did touch me profoundly, and I wonder what
it was. What was it because it wasn't like it
wasn't only the beautiful landscape and the sort of historical tragedy.
I don't know, but there's some places how do have
a kind of tendency to be able to touch you
in a really profound way. There was a writer who

(01:08:39):
said that it's because of the history that there's all
this sadness that stuck to the place, and so people
who have whose souls are kind of dolen or something,
they find resonance in that place. I don't know. That
was a pretty poetic way of putting it. But I
did find something. There was something deeply moving about that place,
and such places that had a vision, didn't she, Yes, yes,

(01:09:04):
there was. I had a Finnish friend who's incidentally she
is a student to finish sort of traditional shamanic traditions,
not the neo you know, colorful drums variety, but the
the sort of original shamanism of the Phinnic tradition. And well,

(01:09:25):
neut it's just a word, an old word for sort
of witch or shaman. Yeah, that comes from from these
old things. But she had been taken there by a friend,
just on a tourist visit, and she had no idea
about any of the history, and she avoided sort of
researching things in advance because it's just one of the
experienced things. And she told me about this this experience

(01:09:47):
that she had there where she really like had a
severe breakdown and heard people crying and singing and all
these things. And then only when she read my book
did you realize the history of that place. So she
had really like touched on, like, you know, had an
experience of something that had happened there a long time
ago apparently, and then but didn't know about it in advance.

(01:10:10):
So you know, these places. I'm sort of open that
places can speak to us. And the area I.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Should tell you. I wanted to say an anecdote of
similar The first time I visited that region was in
two thousand and seven with my family on a summer holiday.
My little sister at the time was about eleven, ten
or eleven, I can't remember, maybe younger, but she said
when we visited, I can't remember, it was Monsel Girl
or one of the other castles. She said, immediately a
lot of people died here when she as soon as

(01:10:38):
she got there, she didn't know anything about it. But
it's similar to your your friend. She just intuitively could
tell that something awful had happened there, which it did.
There was a genocide basically one of them only successful genocides.
They'd got rid of them, a lot of them. Now,
I would like to move to another modern thing that
you because it's an interesting thing. I have as well,

(01:11:01):
an influence from Nietzsche. I read Nietzsche when I was
young and it was influential on me. I am not
a Nietzschian. I go against Nietzsche in lots of his
basic assumptions because he's opposing Plato, and I believe in
the sacred and I believe that there's an order and
meaning to the universe, which I think nietzsure doesn't believe,
and that is why he opposes Plato so much. But

(01:11:21):
you quote Nietzsche in relation to do Nunzio and Pound
as well, and you quote him including the in the
way that he defines pagans as those who say yes
to life, which is a lovely quote, and I think
it has some power to it, but I'm not sure
it encompasses an actual functional definition of what pagans are,
but it's definitely poetic. Do you think that Nietzschure can

(01:11:45):
also be an obstruction to the transcender that Nietzschianism is
dangerous for people trying to rediscover the European soul, Which
is like the point of your book, right, what is
the role of Nietzschean thought in the rediscovery of the
European soul?

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
Very good question. I of course also read Nietzsche when
I was far too young, so I grew up reading
Nietzsche basically, so I have like a soft spot for
him from a very young age. I think he was
very wise in many things, but the spiritual traditions he
didn't know that much about. I don't think he was
very knowledgeable about these things. I think there's a thing

(01:12:23):
that is often overlooked in him, which is like the
greatest thing about Nietzsche isn't necessarily always his sort of
analytical part. It's kind of like his spirit, because there
is this very vital and I would say kind of
pagan spirit, at least in this sort of antique Greek
sense of the word. There is this kind of pagan

(01:12:45):
sense of fury in him, and I think it is
this spirit that people can resonate with with a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
I think these he yeah, it reminds me of callically
some of these anti the people who you know in
the gorgeous who are arguing against Plato's Socrates. So he
is like a classical figure and in that sense, but
not one that's widely recognized.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Now, Yeah, and I think there's something about the you
know why I included that classic yes to life thing
because I think it does have a lot to do
with paganism, because as Pagans, I think we sort of
we say yes to the inevitable tragedy of life as well.
We're we're not We're kind of saying yes to all
of it, this affirmative way of saying life is good

(01:13:36):
and life is meaningful, although suffering and tragedy are inevitable,
and we will face those things, but we will face
them with heroism. And this heroics affirm, this heroic affirmation
of life that is an ultimate pagan value in my sense.
I think that's one of the fundamental things that separates
us from all the Abrahamic traditions, is the infirmation of

(01:14:00):
life that we say yes it is. You know, there
is suffering, there is tragedy, there's no you cannot escape
any of these things, but you say yes to all
of it anyway. And I couldn't find a better heroic,
you know, kind of definition of the pagan spirit, because
that is really what sort of separates us in some

(01:14:22):
ways from a lot of these other things. It's not
a passive and apathetic and submissive position, I think to
be a pagan it does involve like strife and needs
just embracing of, almost like a metaphysical struggle or strife
to existence, I think is something that's that's ultimately pagan.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
But you know he Counclurge, you called him the only
Heathen moralist, and I think he was under something there
because and when he said, I can't remember which book
he remember, he wrote, like, if you had the opportunity
to be to live your life all over again for
the beginning, every single failure, every single pain and suffering,
would you have the courage to say yes? And that
is actually very like like that, it's not the exact same,

(01:15:05):
but the you know, the Celts and the other Pagans
in Europe believed in you know, metempsycho transmigration of souls
that means coming back and doing it all over again.
And they wanted that. It's not like the Indians aiming
to escape Samsara. They just wanted to come back again,
just like so Nietzsche is, in a sense, like Clergie said,

(01:15:25):
a heathen moralist, even if he wasn't theologically heathen.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Yes, and people people also, I think, misunderstand his ideas
a little bit. When he talks about the death of God,
it's not like it's the great it's a great thing.
He's talking about the the disappearance of the transcendental, transcendental
sort of underlying metaphysical foundation of the civilization that we
live in as Europe and the West larger to a

(01:15:51):
larger extent, and it's not people are like, yeah, that's
great that God is that. He's like, No, Nietzsche is
not saying that that is great at all. That is
the fun mental problem to which his solution is that
we should become the over man, which is hybris. You know,
in my view, I don't think it's that easy, and
I think that we need to have a little bit

(01:16:13):
of more, We need to be a little bit more
humble than that and approach the divine in a little
bit more humble way, because you know, it is a
little bit like Icarus.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
You know, Prometheus. Evlo I think is great because he is,
unlike other traditions, he accepted the genius of Nietzsche and
appreciated it while also recognizing the failure of it, which
is that it has no transcendental has no no, nothing
to lift it up out of. But then if an
uber mens can come, it has to be really through

(01:16:45):
a transcendental experience of life, and exactly saying yes to
life comes as a natural consequence of pagan beliefs. It
can't be a substitute for pagan beliefs to saying yes
to what you know to sort of it's a kind
of nihilism there. But but Nietzsche had the idea of
the will to power, and this respectful will is there
in Eavenry with Odin's brother. Will is an essential it

(01:17:08):
really is an essential component in the creation at the beginning.
So I think that yeah, Nietsure can be as you
have done in your book, integrated into an idea of
the holiness of Europe and the Holy, the rediscovery of
the Holy in Europe. You know, there are some you
have to be careful.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Not absolutely, you have to be very intellectually careful, and
because it can lead you to a various sort of
just a maze of sort of deconstruction, which is not
healthy at all. But you know, I've always liked the
spirit of Nietzsche, this kind of it's this Dionesian fury
that he has, and it really touches you, you know,
especially I guess as a young man it did. I

(01:17:47):
was I often carried like the I had a pocket
edition of daspeg Zarathustra that I had bought from Oxford
and there's like tiny little bible and I used to
carry that like on hikes and stuff, and it's just
it's incredible writing. It's incredible stuff and seductive.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Yeah. Yeah, I read it when I was about twenty one.
I read Beyond Good and Evil and immediately wrote read
us it spake there Sustra afterwards, and it was the
only thing I talked or thought about at the time.
Very very, very influential on me as a young man.
You met some really fascinating characters as well as like
having friends and your partner wife now travel with you.

(01:18:28):
But I find that very interesting because when I was
a younger man, I used to travel a lot, and
I used to find it quite like providential what characters
will pop up, almost like it was fated. And that
does seem to be the case with the characters that
you meet on your journeys too, especially the doctor from Questenberg.
Do you allow fate when you're traveling to just sort

(01:18:50):
of carry your feet towards these fated meetings?

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
Yeah, I think these are the treasures, treasures one find,
you know, like, because when you seek things, it's not
it's not you're not going to find material objects, but
you are going to find, you know, connections, And I
mean you're ultimately looking for connections. And how do you
find that besides these places is through the living people
that you you know, meet by happenstance. And yeah, I mean,

(01:19:18):
and you need guides to sort of take you into
if you visit a foreign culture, whether you're europe you know,
even if you're a European, you're still you're not it's
not your cult. It's it's difficult to access. But if
you find a guide, you know, who can take you,
like me Gilio Steakes, you know, down to to the
through the infernal, like you have to have a guide

(01:19:39):
to who takes you to places. So that's your key.
And yeah, and you have to keep your eyes open
and your senses open to to the figures you meet.

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):
And do you still are you still in touch with
the doctor of question Berg. Yes, that's a he, and
he because he for those you're not read the book yet,
you meet, you meet first at and this is something
actually in several parts of the book we haven't gone over.
Besides artists and holy places, holy events are a big
part of the book. We have in Lithuania the Midsummer

(01:20:10):
pagan rituals, and in Germany you go to some may
rituals and erections of these kind of something that appears
to be an Ihrmans who derived tradition. And it was
one of these that this doctor appeared with who were
very knowledgeable of the history, and then took you to
other places in Germany to see more of the same.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
Yes, I mean this is the thing. In Germany. It's
almost illegal to just research things that have to do
with these some of these symbols of the past. And
I'm not talking about the swastikas or something, but just
sun wheels and these pagan maltives. It's it's a difficult
thing to to research these things. And you know, I

(01:20:51):
have to keep the identity of this person, you know,
hidden because of the real reprecautions that might cause him.
But yeah, and that tells you so much about Germany,
and things have happened after I wrote about that there
which I find stunning. That, for instance, that the police,
i think a year ago during this question Fest, which

(01:21:13):
is this celebration in I think late May so pretty
soon now in Pingst during which this kind of tree
like structure on top of a hill by a tiny
village has a wreath on it, so it becomes like
a sun wheel shaped, it's a sunwheel pillar, and the
wreath is replaced with a new reef. And this happens yearly,

(01:21:35):
and so the people wake up in the middle of
the night before the sun rises, and they go to
the top of the mountain and as the sunrises be
behind this pillar, they sing this song to the rising sun.
It's very like it's a very sort of pagan folkish custom,
at least in its atmosphere. And then they replace the wreath,
which is a very pagan motive of replacing the green wreath.

(01:21:59):
But what happened there a year ago was that the
police raided the restaurant of the Question Fest. You know,
the only restaurant in the village we're talking about. The
village is very remote run by a very very nice
older lady and this is her one time of year
that she can actually make money on this restaurant because

(01:22:19):
it's crowded with people. And then the swat team turns up.
Because I was just there in December and I talked
to her at length about this because I wanted to
get it right, and they raided this place and threaten
her with all kinds of immaterial things like hinting and
threatening because there was the suspected that there might be musicians,

(01:22:43):
far right musicians there. That was the I mean, but
that you can't shut down a restaurant because of its
clientel might be holding the wrong opinions or something. It's
very very it's I mean, it's like the totalitarian stuff
does exist, and it exists in Germany in these kinds
of ways. And I will write about this because it

(01:23:03):
was shocked that nobody had written about this in the past.
So this is just the short thing to say that,
you know, it's not easy to hold upkeep these traditions
either when you have the force of the law actively
trying to shut things down which involve a local community.
This is not extan standard. This is not some big
state funded thing. This is a little local community in

(01:23:26):
the highlight of the community is this ritual in May
that happens every year. That's the highlight of the that's
the center of the whole village. And if you disrupt that,
then you know, people will self censor, people will not
come because they're afraid of getting into trouble and stuff. So, yeah,
it is horrible what is happening.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
In some of these But if anyone's not aware how
over zealous the German state is about these kind of symbols.
It was a few years ago, I think it was
actually like more than twenty years ago, the police raided
a left wing anti fascist record like or punk label
because they were selling anti swastika signs, so like people

(01:24:05):
throwing swastikas in the bin, but even having the swastika
in the context of an anti Nazi thing was enough
for them to get raided by the police. They are
extremely overzealous and paranoid about anything with the symbols associated
with the National Socialists, even though even things that are
historical and native traditions touch that, Like I did a
video recently on the history of the swastika, collaborated with

(01:24:28):
help from a professor in Germany who had to of
course remain completely anonymous, because he can't even talk about it.
Only in Scandinavia can they talk about the use of
these symbols in Germany because because the German states insane,
completely crazy about it. But I didn't know about them
raiding that poor restauranteur's establishment.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
Yeah, so please everybody, you know, this is the image
on the cover of the book, Please go there, and
you know when you go, when you eventually go to
this place, if you go there, do visit that restaurant
and eat there and like support them because they do
need it. And without her having this little inn that
people can stay in and keep in this restaurant, it's

(01:25:11):
very unlikely that this tradition will you know, go on,
to be honest, but yeah, it's It's one of the
themes of the book. Why why the question fest the
quest bound the quest of Tree is on the cover
of the book because this is the really the central
theme of my whole book is this central pillar, this
tree of life, which takes many forms throughout the European pantheons,

(01:25:34):
but represents the central axis and structure around which the
spiritual order should be oriented and everything should move around
this axis. This center, and I find that the center
has been lost, but it's manifested in culture, in images,
in symbolism, and sometimes in concrete representations of a pillar,

(01:25:55):
as such as in the case of Germany in the
question in the Tree of Life, in this pillar which
stands on top of a mountain, and this is a
symbol of something larger than simply this village. It is
the symbol of the central sort of ordering principle which
has been lost to most people. And when these places

(01:26:16):
are approached is during holy times. So this is the
second theme of the book, and also why I've structured
certain chapters, like the last chapter is the chapters around
all the holy times of a year in Finland, is
because this is the time that we can connect with Transcendent.
Because not all time, just like not all places are

(01:26:39):
the same, not all time is the same. There are
certain places which are marked by the presence of the
divine in nature, and we commune with the Transcendent, with
the gods and with each other during those times, and
those are the times that we are connected with something
time less, beyond our own sort of time bound form.
And it's always same place, and it's all at the

(01:27:01):
same time, in a way in the Holy time, because
there is this primal time which is marked by the
presence of the gods and the activity of the gods.
So it's not just like any time, but there are
specific times.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
Definitely. I have this something of a dilemma myself with
these because I love to attend these ancient folk custom
traditions here in the West Country, and lucky that many
of them survive, from singing to their apple trees to
make them fruitful and the made traditions and things. But
we as in Lithuania and Germany and other parts of
Europe where these wonderful traditions survive, many of them are

(01:27:37):
quite secularized or or like they're you know, they're Christianized,
or sometimes and sometimes I think this might be worse,
they have been rehabilitated, rehabilitated into a consciously neo pagan
version of themselves, and that actually ends up distorting them
because they're trying to be paid what they think is
pagan because some anthropologists a hundred years ago told them, oh,

(01:28:00):
this custom is actually a pagan origin. So then knowing
that they think, oh, we will lead into that and
make it what they think is pagan actually might make
it less authentic than it was, But what I end
up doing often is me and my health. We do
our rituals around that time of year as a separate
thing with just believing heathens, and then we also attend
these public events where most of the people are not

(01:28:22):
really heathen, but because it's the holy time of year,
those events themselves are so imbued with the holy because
of their long lasting tradition. It's good to attend them,
but it's not quite the same thing as attending an
actual religious event with what do you think do you
think which is preferable? That they should be maintained in
their secular form or should they be transformed into religious events?

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
Again, that's a good question, I think. Of course, if
the secular event can sort of find its deeper meaning
or deeperly mentioned, that's good. And yeah, obviously the if
these things somehow can be infused with more of a
sense of their actual sacred meaning, then yeah, I'm all

(01:29:05):
for that. But of course they should also be maintained
as separate. I mean, that's what we can do in
these smaller ways, is to maintain their integralized cool.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
You did perform a blook at the question first, but
you waited until everyone had gone away. Is that is
that I remember correctly one of them every time.

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
So people are like critics sometimes they're like, there's too
much toasting in this book. It's important, Yeah, this is
because you have when you go to a place, you
do want to you know, having traveled a long way,
you want to have a moment where you can approach
that place with reverence and respect and offer it your
words and a libation and a gift. And yeah, sometimes

(01:29:47):
it's difficult to do if there's German Schlager music playing
and people are eating sausages. You know, like you have
to sometimes consume can communicate with those places in other times,
you know, to have that that's but yeah, I do.
I think it's important that we, you know, when we
visit these sites that it's not just like we view
them as intellectual or cultural things, but also try to

(01:30:09):
like have a moment when you approach it with reverence
and let the place speak. Don't let's put meanings on it,
don't put your ideas onto it. Just be there. Raise
a toast, say a greeting, say a prayer or an
invocation of some sort, and be open to whatever is

(01:30:30):
there and try to have an experience of it. Try
to be open. I know it's difficult for as moderns
because for us, thoughts, words, symbols, ideas come first. But
if you try to just for a little while put
that aside and try to be open to whatever experience
there might be, I think we can have a richer

(01:30:50):
sense of those places. For instance, if you go to
a place that's a sacred river or a sacred place,
don't just go look. And if you know that there's
like a sacred pool there, don't just look at the pool.
Take off your clothing and go and take a dip
in the pool, like engage with the place as our
ancestors would have engaged with that place.

Speaker 1 (01:31:12):
Wise words. Thank you very much, Akie. I think this
what you've described as a path by which I followed,
people may rediscover the holiness of Europe. And I just
want to finish off with asking you what what's next
your now for Are you going to write another book?

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
Well, I'm currently I've been doing this for a decade
now is I've been doing more and more of rituals
having to do with rights of passage, so name givings,
wedding ceremonies and also you know, passing into the next
world funerals and then these calendar, right, holy rites of

(01:31:53):
the year, just to sort of maintain the cosmic accis
in this way, just to keep up this tradition or
give it some vitalities. I've been really engaged with this
kind of work, which is a little different than the writing,
because in the writing it's my subjective experience and I
put a lot of my own flawed personality in there.

(01:32:14):
But in this holy work, I do try to rise
up beyond you know, whatever I am and what I think,
and try to offer a service to people who asked
before and who seek it. And I do that in
the context of the Phinic tradition, but in a larger scale,
in the in sort of terms of a Nordic approach

(01:32:34):
to things, where we obviously don't have any preserved rights
as such given to us, but we have enough elements
of the rights that we know what to do at
specific times of year, what to offer and to whom
and with what words and deeds. So I try to
do those things, and that's it's also part of my work,
is to try to do that. And yes, then I'm

(01:32:57):
I'm editor of this sort of literary anthology book anthology,
where I have other writers and artists contribute, and it's
also a lot relating to this subject matter that we're
talking about, so spiritual traditions, culture, art, philosophy, poetry, and
tried to have like a publication that has a little

(01:33:19):
bit more unusual focus in this way and root it
more in tradition. And yes, I am writing the next
book at the moment, which will kind of be a
continuation of whole Europe in a way. It's I'm also
visiting places and trying to explore a specific kind of

(01:33:40):
spiritual tendency which I mentioned to you earlier, which has
to do with the northernness and with the whatever the
North represents. Because the North often in the Phinic tradition,
and I would saying in the wider sense in the
other traditions as well, the North is the direction of

(01:34:02):
great secrets and power and the great beyond. But it's
also the direction of danger and risk and such things.
And I think we as people of the North, many
of us are sort of by nature sort of oriented
towards the North in a mythic and magical sense. And

(01:34:24):
so I'm exploring this sort of idea of what the
Northern soul is and how it manifests both in me
and in culture and in our time, and what it
actually points towards. So I'm further developing the ideas that
I explore in Holy Europe. So it's really the third

(01:34:45):
part of my book.

Speaker 1 (01:34:48):
I look forward very much to reading that argain. I
wish you all the best in your work as a
priest in Finland, and I thank you very much for
joining us today for the givet book review on Jive talk.

Speaker 2 (01:34:58):
And thank you, yeah, and thank you very much. And
I've been a long time follower of your work and
I've enjoyed it immensely and I read every year at
Yule time, I read your book to my daughter, so
it's a little you'll in tradition to to read that
book to her. So yeah, thank you for your great
work as well. It was great being here.

Speaker 1 (01:35:16):
Thank you very much. Indeed, Oh Gay everyone, thanks very
much for watching. This has been drive talk. Are you
interested in worshiping the gods of ancient England and Scandinavia
but you're not sure how to do it? Starting Heathenry
is a ritual focused online course which will furnish you
with the knowledge and confidence to practice the Heathen religion
alone or with others. The course teaches you how to

(01:35:37):
construct Heathen prayers for yourself, not according to the established
rights of any modern group, but according to what historical
sources show. Starting Heathenry assumes you're interested in Germanic paganism,
know about the gods and myths, and want to begin
practicing this religion, but require guidance on how to do so.
It is based on a micro learning structure, which has
proven to improve knowledge attention by up to eighty percent

(01:35:57):
in students compared to other learning methods. You get more
than five hours of learning material bit by bit as
you please, a modern method of learning about an ancient religion.
Your path to knowing the God's through ritual starts here.

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