October 20, 2025 • 35 mins
Every solar array, battery system, and EV charger installed over the past decade will eventually need to be decommissioned. Yet there's no unifying system to handle that flow of materials—no operating system for the reverse supply chain that the circular economy depends on. While Americans recycle 97% of vehicles, we recycle less than 20% of electronics, leaving valuable critical minerals like lithium, cobalt, and gold to languish in warehouses or end up in landfills. The electronics embedded in our built environment represent the richest mining scene on Earth, yet we treat these refined materials as waste rather than the valuable resources they are. Meet Alexander Olesen, co-founder and CEO of Buckstop, an urban mining company launched in early 2025 to build what he calls "the intelligence layer for the circular economy." He previously founded Babylon Micro Farms, which develops distributed vertical farming systems, and he returns to Sustainability In Your Ear to share his new mission: creating a sustainable end-of-use solution for every electronic device on Earth.
Buckstop took just three months to deploy its "algorithmic assay," a method of deconstructing finished goods into their raw materials and critical minerals at scale, something that wasn't possible to do efficiently before the advent of AI. The result: asset owners can now see the granular value of their deployed electronics in unprecedented detail. The scrap value of electronics typically yields only 1-5% recovery, but resale value can reach 20-30%. For Fortune 500 companies with billions in fixed assets, that circularity delta represents enormous value currently being destroyed.
Olesen's approach draws directly from his decade-long experience as an OEM manufacturing vertical farming equipment with 1,200 unique components. "Why is there no comprehensive end-of-life solution for technology assets?" he asked. Every hardware entrepreneur he knew in renewables, robotics, and distributed systems faced the same problem.
Buckstop's model draws inspiration from an unlikely source: Kelley Blue Book. "Kelley Blue Book was the data stream that formalized the aftermarket for vehicles," Olesen notes. Before that standardization, people would leave cars rusting by the roadside. Today, the automotive industry is the most circular industry on the planet. Olesen believes the same transformation is possible for the electronics industry. The platform currently focuses on renewable energy infrastructure—solar panels, batteries, inverters—but Buckstop's long-term vision extends to one day tracking all electronic assets. As Olesen puts it: "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." That measurement is where circularity begins.
You can learn more about Buckstop and access the beta assessment tool at buckstop.com.
Buckstop took just three months to deploy its "algorithmic assay," a method of deconstructing finished goods into their raw materials and critical minerals at scale, something that wasn't possible to do efficiently before the advent of AI. The result: asset owners can now see the granular value of their deployed electronics in unprecedented detail. The scrap value of electronics typically yields only 1-5% recovery, but resale value can reach 20-30%. For Fortune 500 companies with billions in fixed assets, that circularity delta represents enormous value currently being destroyed.
Olesen's approach draws directly from his decade-long experience as an OEM manufacturing vertical farming equipment with 1,200 unique components. "Why is there no comprehensive end-of-life solution for technology assets?" he asked. Every hardware entrepreneur he knew in renewables, robotics, and distributed systems faced the same problem.
Buckstop's model draws inspiration from an unlikely source: Kelley Blue Book. "Kelley Blue Book was the data stream that formalized the aftermarket for vehicles," Olesen notes. Before that standardization, people would leave cars rusting by the roadside. Today, the automotive industry is the most circular industry on the planet. Olesen believes the same transformation is possible for the electronics industry. The platform currently focuses on renewable energy infrastructure—solar panels, batteries, inverters—but Buckstop's long-term vision extends to one day tracking all electronic assets. As Olesen puts it: "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." That measurement is where circularity begins.
You can learn more about Buckstop and access the beta assessment tool at buckstop.com.
- Subscribe to Sustainability In Your Ear on iTunes
- Follow Sustainability In Your Ear on Spreaker, iHeartRadio, or YouTube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you
are on this beautiful planet of ours, Welcome to Sustainability
in your ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating
the transition to a sustainable carbon neutral society, and I'm
your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Thanks for joining the conversation today.
Five years ago, I spoke with Alexander Olison, co founder
(00:31):
of Babylon Microfarms, about how distributed, digitally managed hydroponics systems
could bring food production closer to the point of consumption,
that is, we grow our food where we eat it.
The company continues to reshape agriculture, one micro farm at
a time, but today Alexander is back to discuss his
new venture called Buckstop. It's an urban mining company founded
(00:53):
in early twenty twenty five, and Buckstop, which released its
beta product in early October, aims to build an intelligence
layer for the circular economy for the electronics infrastructure. Its
missions sounds simple, but it's an enormously ambitious one. Its
mission sounds simple, but it's enormously ambitious. To create a
sustainable end of use solution for every electronic device on Earth,
(01:16):
turning yesterday's waste into tomorrow's resources. Buckstop currently focuses on
the sprawling infrastructure that powers the renewable transition, that is
solar panels, batteries, and verters, ev chargers, all of the
elements of the new electronic economy, to solve the challenge
of what happens when those assets reach the end of
their useful lives. Every solar array, every storage bank, every
(01:39):
charger installed over the past decade will one day need
to be decommissioned, refurbished, or recycled. There's no unifying system
to handle that flow of material. In short, no operating
system for the reverse supply chain that the circular economy
depends on. Batteries and a few narrow categories of consumer
electronics are collected and processed, but many of the electronics
(02:00):
we use, along with the valuable critical minerals they contain,
end up in landfills, and Buckstop seeks to change that
using AI driven valuation logistics orchestration, and critical minerals tracking
to transform decommissioning from a cost center into a resource engine.
If it works, buck Stop could redefine the idea of
(02:21):
urban mining. That is, extracting value not from the earth,
but from the technological systems we've already built. The implications
of making circularity a core feature of the clean energy economy,
not an afterthought, are immense. In the long run, it
could reduce the need for raw materials extraction from nature
by eighty percent or more. But that's a steep hill
(02:41):
to climb because of the fragmented regulations, volatile secondary markets,
and the physical complexity of taking the energy system apart
piece by piece to route them to the right processor.
There's a lot of work involved. We'll talk with Alexander
about how Buckstop plans to make circularity scalable, and what
he's learned since starting Babylon Microfarms about building distributed systems
(03:03):
that can outlive their creators, and how our civilization might
finally learn to design for endings as intelligently as we
design for beginnings. So we'll see if we can get
the circular economy turning. Right after this brief commercial break, Welcome, well,
welcome back to the show. Alexander. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I am creating match. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, thank you. Talking about Babylon micro Farms a few
years ago was really interesting, But here you are with
a new business, buck Stop and you describe this as
the intelligence layer for the circular economy. So here's the question,
what does Buckstop need to build and in what time
frame to lead the reverse logistics market electronics and critical minerals.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Wow, jumping straight into the important questions. I think to
start off, I'd like to just kind of frame the
problem as we see it. So, having being and oem
of kind of some electronic products for the past ten years,
I saw that basically there's a significant information gap between
the asset owners and the options for resell and recycling.
(04:13):
And that's one of the many reasons why we have
such a low electronics recycling rate in the US right
it's currently sitting around twenty percent, which is very low.
It's obviously bad from a sustainability point of view, it's
also bad from a national security point of view, and
it's really bad for the customers and the asset owners.
So with that in mind, we see the data is
(04:34):
one of the key pieces that's missing here. So really
what we're trying to do is build a novel method
to praise the underlying value of deployed electronics hardware. So
our core innovation is what we're calling an algorithmic assay.
So an assay is the method of kind of breaking
something down into its where earth element forms and minerals
(04:57):
and so forth. And so we've derived a novel approach
to doing that at scale, which we're really excited about.
So we're essentially deconstructing finished goods into their raw materials
and critical minerals. We're looking at the resale values. And
so we built a platform that allows us to basically
ingest companies assetless and really give them a new granular
(05:19):
level of detail in a very short amount of time
about what they have. And once you've measured something, you
can selp to improve it. And so we think that
this is one of the underlying pieces here. It's like, Okay,
all the companies that are out there blowing electronics, we
can measure what you have out there very quickly and
in very high fidelity. And that is now the kind
(05:40):
of foundational piece from which you can start developing secular
programs to resell and recycles.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So you just launched your data of the assessment tool.
The question for me is what is the data the
foundation that powers that assessment. Are you breaking down the
bill of materials for all these different products in order
to said there's that much gold or cobalt or whatever
in that material.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Essentially, yes, I think there's We combine a lot of sources,
both public and private, to give these and I think
it's also an important to look at the context to
where your scrap and re cyclis are often relying on
a lot of gut instinct to go spec out a
project and look, they look for the copper, why they
look for them on the board, They look for some
of these key components that try values. So we're observing
(06:28):
that and figuring out how to do it using relatest technology.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Now your beta is i think primarily aimed at developers
of solar wind and other infrastructure projects at this point.
And it's interesting because typically all those pieces of equipment
are some costs, but you're describing them as assets with
future value. How does that change the way we think
about in tracks, say for instance, gold, copper, nickel, and
(06:53):
lithium through the entire life cycle. Are we going to
be able to say I have a recoverable value of
this in my infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, so that's exactly what we're working towards. I think
a helpful analogy here is Kelly blue Book was the
kind of the data stream that formalized the aftermarket for vehicles.
And you know, you see today the vehicles and ninety
seven percent of them are recycled. It's actually the most
circular industry on the planet. And that wasn't always the case.
People used to just leave them rusting on the side
(07:23):
of the road. And so we're seeing a lot of
the similar kind of factors in the electronics space. To
a politics, supply chain, shorders and so forth, at are
driving demand for domestic recycling. And we think that if
we're able to measure it, that is going to help
kind of drive circularity both through resell and recycling and
just you know, as it relates to the depreciation point.
I think that's absolutely key. The core of what we're
(07:44):
doing is an economic proposition for these companies. We call
it the circularity delta. And the way to think about
that is most of these assets are appreciated over a
straight line, often to zero, and that is not an
accurate representation of their value. And it's also of the
reasons why there's a lot of value destruction. So once
you've got an asset, once it becomes idle, stranded, or obsolete,
(08:07):
there's an operations guide on the ground usually who is
just tosked with getting rid of it, and so it's
land filled, it's hoarded, maybe given to a scrap yard
if you're lucky. And we see that as one of
the kind of the core information asymmetries that we're trying
to address is like, how do you give the finance
team the visibility on their applied assets in raw materials
and in resale so that they can actually map the
(08:28):
value of this asset throughout its life and you know,
instead of a straight line, it's more of a kind
of s curve that shows that you know, you like
a car, you lose forty percent when you drive it
off the lot. It holds its value okay for a
certain amount of time, and then it really starts to decrease.
And that is exactly what we're measuring across different asset types,
and that is really valuable information for the asset owners
(08:49):
because it can help inform when they should upgrade, when
when are the optimal times to do this, and how
can they recover more value energy for the circle, Just
to put some numbers to that, we're seeing the scrap
value for electronics in broad terms, is usually one to
five percent. The resell value can be twenty to thirty
percent on the high end, and that's a significant portion.
(09:10):
You look at some of these large companies, look in
the Fortune five hundred, where they have billions of dollars
of fixed assets, that that is a huge portion of
their palatry that they could be recovery and so we're
trying to build the tools to help them understand that
and drive that recovery.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Rate U and if you can measure it, you can
finance it, which implies that there's some interesting new economic models.
Do you participate in guaranteeing future value and could you
potentially even monetize that as part of your business?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
That is absolutely a goal of ours. It's very hard
to do, as with anything, predicting the future is hard,
but luckily we're consolidating a lot of historical data sets
that are giving us some really granular visibility there which
we don't think has been done before. And I think
to your point with particularly in the energy space, you
know there are a lot of financial intermediaries for decommissioning bonds,
(10:01):
permitting bruty, your lenders and insurers. All of them require
salvage values that is one of the key risk variables
for their underwriting process, and today it's often you know, zero,
or they pull a number, you know, they pick a
round number. It's it's actually really a kind of imperfect
part of the puzzle. And I think I actually lived
(10:22):
this in my previous life. We were you know, we
end the vertical farming equipment. We deployed a harder as
a service model. We couldn't get financing from anyone because
we were like, we've never seen this before. We were
kind of nearly a first of a kind in that area.
And they assume the salvage value was zero. That drove
up our interest rates, you know, the cost of the capital.
(10:43):
And so I think in the longer term, if we're successful,
there is a world where you enable kind of more
circular financing and you have granular assumptions around the residual values,
and that could actually reduce the cost of capital, reduce
our insurance premiums, and ultimately kind of encourage more kind
of circular financing towards kind of electronic assets.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Orchestration is the new function that we're introducing into the economy.
And as I think about where Buckstop is, it seems
like you also have the opportunity to arbitrage material value
based on where it is, differences in value, different costs
of collecting and processing in different regions, and so forth.
So how do you keep track of all of those local,
(11:28):
hyper local pricing and other factors as you assess the
value of say a battery.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think we do
see ourselves as kind of an orchestration layer. You know,
the data allows better decisions, and we think driving up
recovery rates is really what we're about. How we go
about that is again a lot of data collection. Very
fortunate to have some co founders who one of which
comes from the kind of commodities trading worlds, and if
(11:56):
you think about it, commodities, they run netback models which
essentially factor in the price and then the shipping cost
globally for these more liquid markets. Of course, we're dealing
in electronic waste, which is not a kind of measured
or liquid market. I think that's going to change. I
think we're going to be part of that. And then
we have another co founder's that really comes from that
(12:17):
data and gering sights. So fortunately, between us we're able
to kind of look at how do you consolidate again
public and private data sets, how do you build methods
to gather kind of first hand research on pricing literally
like in some cases calling around the yard side. So
we're building out that methodology to give us really a
very granular look at the trading prices of these electronic assets,
(12:40):
both through resale and recycling. I think as we kind
of ramp that up, it's going to be a really
useful tool for all of these stakeholders across the life
cycle of an asset, from the kind of folks underwriting
them at the start of life through to that end
of life journey, whether that's reuse or recycling.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So when you look at that big picture as the
orchestrator of a circular economy and this kind of material
a lot of jurisdictions have different eWays, transportation of eWays, regulations,
all sorts of different rules, and that affects the cost
of moving these materials around. How are you going to
integrate that view and provide that kind of guidance to
the customers who are doing the assessment of their materials.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, I think it's a really important point and it's
actually one of the key kind of features of our
appraisal platform is we look at your assets, we give
you resell values in very high felty scrap values and
regulations because, as you correctly point out, regulations, one of
the key drivers here and the real challenge we're on
facing as an industry from a secarry point of view
(13:42):
is boarding. You know, you've got that dural full of
electronics at home. Companies have warehouses and graveyards full of
stuff and then landfill. And I think the landscape is
changing the very quickly. I just came from the SO
Energy Industry Association event earlier this week and there are
two new states added landfill bands this year alone, So
it's moving quickly. And I think you've got the Brussels
(14:03):
effect in Europe driving a lot of that. Right then,
they're way ahead of the US. But you know, states
like California and Washington are really driving quite an aggressive
policy agenda that is ultimately good for psych clarity, but
it's kind of pushing, you know, banning landfill bands, encouraging
extented produce responsibilities. These are all things that we try
to give companies visibility on. SO as kind of an enterprise,
(14:25):
daid's a platform we can look at the state and
county level where these assets are being kept, and then
we can help show them what regulations apply to them.
And I think again that's kind of a key driver
of how to recover value, is like what are the
costs associated and how to handle it properly.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
So you're describing urban mining as the activity that we're
ultimately beginning to systematize. Does that mean we're going to
dig up everything in the landfills and start to sort
through it to pull the gold and cobalt inother materials out.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So that is getting a little bit further down our
product roadmap I want to talk about, but I think
it's absolutly right. As I love the term of and mining,
obviously it can mean a lot of different things. So
I think for context, it is the electronics around us
in the bill environment is the richest mining seam on earth.
We've already gone to the work of digging it out
of the ground, finding it into a product and a material,
(15:20):
and yet we see such low recycling rates. I think
the issue at hand is that it's a highly disaggregated
supply and there's a lot of kind of institutional know
how and what has value. And again that's what we're
trying to provide some rigid to how do you measure that?
And your really landful mining has come up a lot.
I think it is a pretty obvious opportunity, especially given
(15:42):
some of the older electronics that are out there and
most of them are buried. The manfield by now are
a much higher density in certain critical minerals, So I
have no doubt that that is going to be a
source of feedstock in the future. I don't think it's
it's quite what we're focused on, but it's all part
of that umbrella tom of like how do we collect
(16:02):
what's in the out there? And you know, I think
there are just so many tail winds now from a
political point of view, but also if you look at
the downstream investment that's going into novel recycling processes, automated shreading,
sorting facilities, and biogenics which are really increasing recovery rates.
These are all amazing things and I think are really
(16:23):
setting the foundation for this kind of up and mining
world where the un economics of material recovery improved significantly,
which is great for the industry, and I think as
it relates to where we fit in all of that
downstream investment is amazing, It is much needed. It is
a huge boost to the industry, but none of those
businesses can be successful without feedstock. It was this.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Possible before the advent of AI. I mean, we were
talking before we went on the air about the fact
that you launched your beta three months after the team
went full time, and that's obviously an accelerated process. But
would it even have been possible to undertake business without
the ability to use AI to optimize the network?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Not at all. And I think it's one of the
you know, it's from where we're sitting, it's a really
exciting real world use case for AI, and you know,
a sustainability use case as well, and it just wasn't possible.
I think if you just look at the sheer amount
of data that we're having to crunch through. The also
kind of the it's still manual in a lot of cases,
(17:28):
kind of data collection, cleaning, sorting these proprietary data sets
to train the models and kind of derive these insights
like it was. I think there are kind of fringe
examples of where it had been done on a specific
device type or category, but the idea of being able
to do it across all these different industries and devices
was just simply untenable even you know, a year ago,
(17:48):
And so I think we're really kind of meeting that
moment with leveraging this amazing new technology to do something
that hasn't been done before.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You just gestured at the fact that there are a
number of companies that for their on purposes recycle and
recover their materials, Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Are you aiming also
to extend into the consumer electronic space to offer the
same sort of orchestration. And if you do that, do
you see offering that as a service to those large
companies or are they your competitor?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I definitely don't think the competitors. It's it's interesting, it's
sort of where to start. I think, one, we've got
our hands full in the energy and industrial space. I
think it's just a lot of opportunity there. And also
from a just a massive material point of view, it's
a really high large segment. It's hard to go into
kind of enterprise recycling without running into consumer electronics, right,
(18:42):
So it's a lot of crossover in your IT assets
and consumers. So it seems like it's inevitable that I'd
say as it relates to Apple and others. They're a
great but bell weather for the rest of the economy.
The fact that they're doing this is the fact that
they've actually led into such clarity really is just testaments
the value that can provide. And I think when we
talk about it entirely, we talk about the blended benefit
(19:04):
of psuchularity. It is both a sustainability benefit, but it's
also really important for customer attention and then also the
certified pre owned programs increase your installed based So from
a business point of view, you're selling new products, which
is great for revenue, you're reducing your missions and sustainability
for all, but you're also kind of actually creating a
new coss of pre owned devices that grow your install base.
(19:28):
So this is a a kind of win win win
that is a bit of a no brainer for these businesses,
and the fact that Apple anothers are doing it is
a great sign.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So we've unpacked all the complexity. I think we should
take a quick commercial break and then we'll get right
back to continue the conversation. Welcome back to sustainability in
your ear. We're talking with Alexander Olison. He's co founder
and CEO of the newly launched urban mining company Buckstop.
But Alexander, you were also the founder of Babylon Microfarms
(20:00):
and you grew that into a vertical farming leader. How
would you characterize the progress in vertical farming since we
last talked.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Wow, that's a big question. You know. I'm sitting on
the sidelines these days, but still cheering on bab On
and remain actively involved there on the board. The space
is really interesting and I think there's one it's absolutely
essential for in the long run, and I think the
un economics are being proven out across certain categories and
(20:29):
certain types of vertical farming systems. But you know, there's
certainly some headwinds. The capital landscape has shifted. I think
a lot of ans capital float into the space, some
some could say too much. The long term need for
the industry is certainly there, and I don't think consumer
habits towards kind of local farming, high quality produce, less
(20:50):
food miles, less waste is going to go away. I
think I think all of those things are there that
set industry up for long term success. However, you know,
clearly a lot of capital float into the space. There
are a lot of very exciting companies that have gone away,
and I think that leaves the industry a little bit
of a black eye, and that's that's definitely challenging for
everyone that operates in it. And as it relates to Babbelon,
(21:11):
we've were fortunate to be differentiated. We sell hardware, we
sell software, don't sell produce. But you know, it's a
challenging space and I think a lot of this vibe
shift against ESG and other things that doesn't doesn't help
the industry, you know, because a lot of these companies
wanted to invest in the latest, greatest thing, and we're
(21:31):
seeing this in solar as well. You know, people are
are sort of just a change in attitude towards investing
in these sustainable technologies, which is which is challenging. But
you know, again, I continue to be a really big
believer in the multical farming space in the long run
and a babble and we're lucky to have Markoshima, who's
one of the co founder Error Farms take over.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
So I'm curious what technical or business assumptions have held
up from the beginning of Babylon microfarms and which ones
turned out to be you know, grossly overestimated it or
underestimated what surprised you about it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Called that I could give you a long list for
a whole whole other episode on this, but I think
I think for us, the complexities of manufacturing hardware from
scratch were just immense. You know, it was it was
a very steep learning curve for us as a company
developing a novel hardware system, and so you know that
(22:25):
that was was a steep learning curve. Again, we're pretty
differentiated in the market is making hardware and is selling
the supporting software. But I think those are some of
the bigger learning learning sort of really around the production side.
But as it relates the industry, I think just generally,
these small modular systems look to be pretty successful. You know,
(22:48):
there are others in our kind of nascent segment alongside
Babylon that seems to be having a lot of commercial
traction just on the basis of being very accessible, smaller scale,
And it's just interesting to see that some of the
small modular systems that were written off five ten years
ago seemed to be the ones having the most commercial
success these days.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You've moved from one industry to another, But what about
Babylon microfarms experience informed your urban mining aspirations were the inspirations.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, so it absolutely wouldn't be doing boks up without
a lot of the hard earned learnings through becoming an OEM.
And I think while we were in the voltical farming space,
we were primarily a manufacturer of equipment and appliances. So
we developed patented into the Things platform and we were
manufacturing a product with about twelve hundred unique components. So
(23:38):
you know, this is a pretty heavy engineering and manufacturing challenge,
which you know, I'm very grateful to have gone through
lund a lot. And you know, as I mentioned earliers,
like I saw that anything that's electronic, it goes absollete.
Things break. This is just how it is and what
happens then, And that was really something I was seeing
fasthand where our operations teams they want to install the
(24:00):
next farm, they want to help our existing customers. If
something comes offline for whatever reason, that is their lowest priority,
and it led to a lot of value destruction. As
someone who knew all Villain materials, I was like this,
it's insane to me that some of these things are
in the up and line fill. So that was one
of the core insights where I was like, this is
a real operational problem. There's a lot of value destruction.
(24:22):
And I was fortunate to know a lot of folks
in renewables, robotics, other kind of distribute hardware systems, and
they all have exactly the same problem. So I think
one of you knows. As I was learning through, I
was like, Wow, why is there no kind of comprehensive
end of life solution or technology assets? And that was
really what Yeah, I mean, it's what we're trying to
build today, a boxed up well.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And turning back to buck Step and in terms of
recycling and materials recovery, are you thinking that you're going
to ultimately build processing capabilities or are you consistently going to
rely on third party recyclers? And if that's what's your business,
is it about relationships or is it about information?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
We are not getting into the recycling business. I think
there's so much innovation and also a lot of incumbent
players that are a really important part of this. And
I think for us in the context the industry, you've
got a lot of downstream processing, a lot of new
stuff coming online, and that is amazing for the processing side,
but it's really around sourcing and aggregation. So in the industry,
(25:24):
we're sitting at about twenty percent of electronics recycling the US,
So there's eighty percent of this stuff's out there, and
how are we going to recover that? So our role
in the industry, as we see it, is to help
measure the deployed feedstock across all of these different electronic
device categories and then provide the foundation from which we
can sort, aggregate, and actually provide more feedstock to these
(25:47):
downstream processes.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
You know, getting enough material to make a process economically
viable is always the big challenge. Do you see these
recyclers beginning to come to you to talk about their
future access to content that they can process in order
to maximize the return on their investment in new infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
We're a little early to say on that front. I
think the main thing for us is about helping the
asset owners know what they have so they can make
better decisions. So, you know, in the context of secularity
and the economic benefits of circularity, which is what we're
trying to frame, there's like a lot of these companies
are not prioritizing electronic waste, recycling, resale, like just the
(26:28):
value or covery portion in the way that they could
be and so that's where our information tools come in.
And so I think we're seeing a lot of the
interest in demand on that front, which is really exciting.
And then as that picks up, we're going to start
to see, you know, a lot We're mapping these seams
of value right in these deployed assets, and so once
those seams are mapped, the next step is really trying
to help them find the right resale or recycling partner
(26:52):
to process those assets.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
We're talking about complete systems changes in terms of industrial processes,
and a couple of weeks ago, spoke with Tom Zaki,
the CEO of terror Cycle, and he argued that the
waste industry needs to evolve just about handling everything as
waste essentially. But the way he suggested to do that
was think of it as the packaging industry that they
introduce a new service layer that takes back packaging and
(27:16):
products at the end of life, it becomes a component
of the brand experience. Do you see buck Stop as
potentially being the activator of a new service economy around
electronic infrastructure and electronics materials that changes the way we
interact with, acquire and dispose of things at the end
of life.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah. Absolutely, that is Our goal is to be the
kind of embedded cell clarity solution that lets any one
who owns these assets, all the OEMs implement sell clarity.
That is absolutely part of our roadmap. And I think
in terms of how we're doing that, we have built
out this kind of repeatable valuation framework that we're scaling
across different VOT schools, which is going to really help
(28:00):
kind of set a baseline measurement for what's out there,
and once you measured it, then you can start to
the lair on these kind of take back programs among
other things to help kind of basically enable the sector economy.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
So do you see a new class of work emerging
out of this. We talked about the role of AI,
but humans are still essential, particularly to the interpersonal interactions
around the transfer of materials for recycling. Is there a
new economy in terms of a new workforce that we
need to evolve in order to get to this circular vision?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah? Absolutely, And I think you're saying that, you know,
it's really not just us, but in recycling, in the
solar industry, you have repowering, and there's a whole kind
of WORKPLOCE development angle that is happening to help facilitate
these upgrades and so forth. Yes, I think from the
workforce idea and the circular economy is a really exciting
prospect because you know, if you look historically, it's only
in recent decades that we've moved this kind of take
(28:57):
make waste economy, and I think as you look further ahead,
you can see circularity PRECTS is being built into these products.
You just like people have phones now for two or
three years and then you're expected to get a new one,
and they're often on a lease. I think we see
that that is likely to be a trend for all
kind of smart devices, where the kind of analogue devices
(29:17):
that lasted for ten years and then you you know,
throw away they break are probably going to replaced these
smart devices on shorter life spans that are created more likely.
So that's exciting. But to enable that, we're going to
have to build new tools for reverse logistics at its core,
like how do you get stuff from B to A
instead of A to B? And so I think there's
a lot of things that need to happen for that,
(29:37):
I think it's a little bit ahead of where we
sit in the chain, but we're like, you know, as
I said, if you can't measure it, you can't improve it.
And so we're starting there. And yeah, there are a
lot of downsciare implications if you kind of play this
out and envision the secular economy at scale, Yeah, you've
got a whole new section of the economy that's going
to grow to support this kind of collection, infrastructure, processing,
(29:59):
upside clean reselling and so forth.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
We're talking about something emerging rather than the end of
an old economy. And so you've you've launched your data.
What are we going to be watching for for the
next few months from Buckstock.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So for us right now, it's about getting this tool
out into the hands of as many kind of renewal
learmentry folks as possible. So we're seeing great adoption in
the solar space, and you know, it's a really useful
tool to understand what you have. You know, I think
for anyone out there kind of who has a balance
sheet that they're looking after, like, wouldn't you want to
know what the residual value is in your fixed assets.
(30:35):
I think that's the kind of cool question. You know,
we talked about the secularity delta. I think we're honing
in on our kind of pricing algorithms. We're finding the
models there to give it a very like high fidelity
look on what's out there and what's it worth, and
so I think that piece of the business is moving
very quickly. So our goal here is to kind of
grow beyond renewables into other kind of energy and industrial
(30:59):
assets and really kind of set the scene for evaluation
layer that can help with all of these kind of upgrades.
I'm sure you're seeing there's a ton of investment going
to data centers, energy, all of that, but with every
new investment, there's waste and there's a lot of upgrades
and stuff that needs to happen to be able to
support that build out. So's we're really meeting that moment
(31:20):
with a tool that can help value these assets and
help inform those kind of upgrade cycles.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
An exciting vision. How can folks keep up with your work?
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So I think follow us on on buckstop dot com.
I'm also very active on LinkedIn and x. We're trying
to kind of do this whole building public things so
posting lots of updates on there, and yeah, really looking
to connect with anyone who's deploying technology assets and is
curious about what their set clarity delta is. We can
help you figure it out.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Alexander, thanks so much for your time. Again, it was
great to talk with you.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Thanks Mitch, great to be here.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Welcome back to sustainability in your ear. You've been listening
to a conversation with Alexander Olison, co founder and CEO
of Buckstop. It's a pioneering circular electronics company aiming to
build the information layer that will support tracking, valuing, and
recovering electronic components and critical minerals in the renewable energy infrastructure.
(32:21):
You can learn more about the company and sign up
for its beta assessment tool at bostop dot com. Alexander's
strategy underscores the problem with the concept of waste, that is,
the idea that stuff is worthless after its primary industrial
use value is depleted. When we talk about waste, we
ignore the residual value of materials that have already been
(32:42):
mined and refined, instead of recognizing those previous investments in
materials as available and profitable paths to a reusable infrastructure,
and as part of that infrastructure the opportunity to create
a new service layer that ensures there is no waste,
only materials that are in perpetual use. In other words,
a new economy a circular one. Buckstop's measurement of the
(33:04):
value of materials currently embedded in the economy in one
generation of infrastructure sets the stage for circulars solutions that
can keep critical minerals lithium and silicon in circulation. A
valuation layer in the economy enables creative financing and can,
as Alexander shared, lift the recovery value of materials from
between one and five percent to north of twenty percent.
(33:27):
It's effectively found money, a potential lift in the efficiency
of capital that can kick start electronics circularity. Buckstop's challenge, however,
will be to sustain itself through the first generation of
use of the assets that it's measuring today. That is,
in order to help cash in on that value when
the first wave of upgrades comes to pass. But as
we've heard, the company has built a lean model, one
(33:50):
accelerated by artificial intelligence, taking only three months to go
from launch to beta product. Buckstop may be the innovator
that captures enough data that represents sufficient value that customers
will continue to willingly pay to track those assets so
that they can liberate the embedded value in the first
generation of renewable energy infrastructure when upgrade time comes. If,
(34:13):
as the saying goes, data is the new oil, Buckstop
is filling reservoirs with future value. It will be fun
and probably a little harrowing to watch. So stay tuned
for the next chapter in Buckstop's journey, and I hope
they take a moment to check out any of the
more than five hundred episodes of Sustainability in Your Ear
that we've produced. Please share them with others. Writing a
(34:35):
review on your favorite podcast platform will help your neighbors
find us. You, folks, are the amplifiers that can spread
more ideas to create less waste, So please tell your friends, family,
and co workers. They can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio,
Audible or other purveyors of podcast goodness. Thank you for
your support on Mitracliffe. This is Sustainability in Your Ear
(34:58):
and we will be back with another inn better interviews soon.
In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care
of one another. And let's all take care of this
beautiful planet of ours. Have a green day,
Hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you
are on this beautiful planet of ours, Welcome to Sustainability
in your ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating
the transition to a sustainable carbon neutral society, and I'm
your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Thanks for joining the conversation today.
Five years ago, I spoke with Alexander Olison, co founder
(00:31):
of Babylon Microfarms, about how distributed, digitally managed hydroponics systems
could bring food production closer to the point of consumption,
that is, we grow our food where we eat it.
The company continues to reshape agriculture, one micro farm at
a time, but today Alexander is back to discuss his
new venture called Buckstop. It's an urban mining company founded
(00:53):
in early twenty twenty five, and Buckstop, which released its
beta product in early October, aims to build an intelligence
layer for the circular economy for the electronics infrastructure. Its
missions sounds simple, but it's an enormously ambitious one. Its
mission sounds simple, but it's enormously ambitious. To create a
sustainable end of use solution for every electronic device on Earth,
(01:16):
turning yesterday's waste into tomorrow's resources. Buckstop currently focuses on
the sprawling infrastructure that powers the renewable transition, that is
solar panels, batteries, and verters, ev chargers, all of the
elements of the new electronic economy, to solve the challenge
of what happens when those assets reach the end of
their useful lives. Every solar array, every storage bank, every
(01:39):
charger installed over the past decade will one day need
to be decommissioned, refurbished, or recycled. There's no unifying system
to handle that flow of material. In short, no operating
system for the reverse supply chain that the circular economy
depends on. Batteries and a few narrow categories of consumer
electronics are collected and processed, but many of the electronics
(02:00):
we use, along with the valuable critical minerals they contain,
end up in landfills, and Buckstop seeks to change that
using AI driven valuation logistics orchestration, and critical minerals tracking
to transform decommissioning from a cost center into a resource engine.
If it works, buck Stop could redefine the idea of
(02:21):
urban mining. That is, extracting value not from the earth,
but from the technological systems we've already built. The implications
of making circularity a core feature of the clean energy economy,
not an afterthought, are immense. In the long run, it
could reduce the need for raw materials extraction from nature
by eighty percent or more. But that's a steep hill
(02:41):
to climb because of the fragmented regulations, volatile secondary markets,
and the physical complexity of taking the energy system apart
piece by piece to route them to the right processor.
There's a lot of work involved. We'll talk with Alexander
about how Buckstop plans to make circularity scalable, and what
he's learned since starting Babylon Microfarms about building distributed systems
(03:03):
that can outlive their creators, and how our civilization might
finally learn to design for endings as intelligently as we
design for beginnings. So we'll see if we can get
the circular economy turning. Right after this brief commercial break, Welcome, well,
welcome back to the show. Alexander. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I am creating match. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, thank you. Talking about Babylon micro Farms a few
years ago was really interesting, But here you are with
a new business, buck Stop and you describe this as
the intelligence layer for the circular economy. So here's the question,
what does Buckstop need to build and in what time
frame to lead the reverse logistics market electronics and critical minerals.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Wow, jumping straight into the important questions. I think to
start off, I'd like to just kind of frame the
problem as we see it. So, having being and oem
of kind of some electronic products for the past ten years,
I saw that basically there's a significant information gap between
the asset owners and the options for resell and recycling.
(04:13):
And that's one of the many reasons why we have
such a low electronics recycling rate in the US right
it's currently sitting around twenty percent, which is very low.
It's obviously bad from a sustainability point of view, it's
also bad from a national security point of view, and
it's really bad for the customers and the asset owners.
So with that in mind, we see the data is
(04:34):
one of the key pieces that's missing here. So really
what we're trying to do is build a novel method
to praise the underlying value of deployed electronics hardware. So
our core innovation is what we're calling an algorithmic assay.
So an assay is the method of kind of breaking
something down into its where earth element forms and minerals
(04:57):
and so forth. And so we've derived a novel approach
to doing that at scale, which we're really excited about.
So we're essentially deconstructing finished goods into their raw materials
and critical minerals. We're looking at the resale values. And
so we built a platform that allows us to basically
ingest companies assetless and really give them a new granular
(05:19):
level of detail in a very short amount of time
about what they have. And once you've measured something, you
can selp to improve it. And so we think that
this is one of the underlying pieces here. It's like, Okay,
all the companies that are out there blowing electronics, we
can measure what you have out there very quickly and
in very high fidelity. And that is now the kind
(05:40):
of foundational piece from which you can start developing secular
programs to resell and recycles.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So you just launched your data of the assessment tool.
The question for me is what is the data the
foundation that powers that assessment. Are you breaking down the
bill of materials for all these different products in order
to said there's that much gold or cobalt or whatever
in that material.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Essentially, yes, I think there's We combine a lot of sources,
both public and private, to give these and I think
it's also an important to look at the context to
where your scrap and re cyclis are often relying on
a lot of gut instinct to go spec out a
project and look, they look for the copper, why they
look for them on the board, They look for some
of these key components that try values. So we're observing
(06:28):
that and figuring out how to do it using relatest technology.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Now your beta is i think primarily aimed at developers
of solar wind and other infrastructure projects at this point.
And it's interesting because typically all those pieces of equipment
are some costs, but you're describing them as assets with
future value. How does that change the way we think
about in tracks, say for instance, gold, copper, nickel, and
(06:53):
lithium through the entire life cycle. Are we going to
be able to say I have a recoverable value of
this in my infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, so that's exactly what we're working towards. I think
a helpful analogy here is Kelly blue Book was the
kind of the data stream that formalized the aftermarket for vehicles.
And you know, you see today the vehicles and ninety
seven percent of them are recycled. It's actually the most
circular industry on the planet. And that wasn't always the case.
People used to just leave them rusting on the side
(07:23):
of the road. And so we're seeing a lot of
the similar kind of factors in the electronics space. To
a politics, supply chain, shorders and so forth, at are
driving demand for domestic recycling. And we think that if
we're able to measure it, that is going to help
kind of drive circularity both through resell and recycling and
just you know, as it relates to the depreciation point.
I think that's absolutely key. The core of what we're
(07:44):
doing is an economic proposition for these companies. We call
it the circularity delta. And the way to think about
that is most of these assets are appreciated over a
straight line, often to zero, and that is not an
accurate representation of their value. And it's also of the
reasons why there's a lot of value destruction. So once
you've got an asset, once it becomes idle, stranded, or obsolete,
(08:07):
there's an operations guide on the ground usually who is
just tosked with getting rid of it, and so it's
land filled, it's hoarded, maybe given to a scrap yard
if you're lucky. And we see that as one of
the kind of the core information asymmetries that we're trying
to address is like, how do you give the finance
team the visibility on their applied assets in raw materials
and in resale so that they can actually map the
(08:28):
value of this asset throughout its life and you know,
instead of a straight line, it's more of a kind
of s curve that shows that you know, you like
a car, you lose forty percent when you drive it
off the lot. It holds its value okay for a
certain amount of time, and then it really starts to decrease.
And that is exactly what we're measuring across different asset types,
and that is really valuable information for the asset owners
(08:49):
because it can help inform when they should upgrade, when
when are the optimal times to do this, and how
can they recover more value energy for the circle, Just
to put some numbers to that, we're seeing the scrap
value for electronics in broad terms, is usually one to
five percent. The resell value can be twenty to thirty
percent on the high end, and that's a significant portion.
(09:10):
You look at some of these large companies, look in
the Fortune five hundred, where they have billions of dollars
of fixed assets, that that is a huge portion of
their palatry that they could be recovery and so we're
trying to build the tools to help them understand that
and drive that recovery.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Rate U and if you can measure it, you can
finance it, which implies that there's some interesting new economic models.
Do you participate in guaranteeing future value and could you
potentially even monetize that as part of your business?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
That is absolutely a goal of ours. It's very hard
to do, as with anything, predicting the future is hard,
but luckily we're consolidating a lot of historical data sets
that are giving us some really granular visibility there which
we don't think has been done before. And I think
to your point with particularly in the energy space, you
know there are a lot of financial intermediaries for decommissioning bonds,
(10:01):
permitting bruty, your lenders and insurers. All of them require
salvage values that is one of the key risk variables
for their underwriting process, and today it's often you know, zero,
or they pull a number, you know, they pick a
round number. It's it's actually really a kind of imperfect
part of the puzzle. And I think I actually lived
(10:22):
this in my previous life. We were you know, we
end the vertical farming equipment. We deployed a harder as
a service model. We couldn't get financing from anyone because
we were like, we've never seen this before. We were
kind of nearly a first of a kind in that area.
And they assume the salvage value was zero. That drove
up our interest rates, you know, the cost of the capital.
(10:43):
And so I think in the longer term, if we're successful,
there is a world where you enable kind of more
circular financing and you have granular assumptions around the residual values,
and that could actually reduce the cost of capital, reduce
our insurance premiums, and ultimately kind of encourage more kind
of circular financing towards kind of electronic assets.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Orchestration is the new function that we're introducing into the economy.
And as I think about where Buckstop is, it seems
like you also have the opportunity to arbitrage material value
based on where it is, differences in value, different costs
of collecting and processing in different regions, and so forth.
So how do you keep track of all of those local,
(11:28):
hyper local pricing and other factors as you assess the
value of say a battery.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I think we do
see ourselves as kind of an orchestration layer. You know,
the data allows better decisions, and we think driving up
recovery rates is really what we're about. How we go
about that is again a lot of data collection. Very
fortunate to have some co founders who one of which
comes from the kind of commodities trading worlds, and if
(11:56):
you think about it, commodities, they run netback models which
essentially factor in the price and then the shipping cost
globally for these more liquid markets. Of course, we're dealing
in electronic waste, which is not a kind of measured
or liquid market. I think that's going to change. I
think we're going to be part of that. And then
we have another co founder's that really comes from that
(12:17):
data and gering sights. So fortunately, between us we're able
to kind of look at how do you consolidate again
public and private data sets, how do you build methods
to gather kind of first hand research on pricing literally
like in some cases calling around the yard side. So
we're building out that methodology to give us really a
very granular look at the trading prices of these electronic assets,
(12:40):
both through resale and recycling. I think as we kind
of ramp that up, it's going to be a really
useful tool for all of these stakeholders across the life
cycle of an asset, from the kind of folks underwriting
them at the start of life through to that end
of life journey, whether that's reuse or recycling.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So when you look at that big picture as the
orchestrator of a circular economy and this kind of material
a lot of jurisdictions have different eWays, transportation of eWays, regulations,
all sorts of different rules, and that affects the cost
of moving these materials around. How are you going to
integrate that view and provide that kind of guidance to
the customers who are doing the assessment of their materials.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, I think it's a really important point and it's
actually one of the key kind of features of our
appraisal platform is we look at your assets, we give
you resell values in very high felty scrap values and
regulations because, as you correctly point out, regulations, one of
the key drivers here and the real challenge we're on
facing as an industry from a secarry point of view
(13:42):
is boarding. You know, you've got that dural full of
electronics at home. Companies have warehouses and graveyards full of
stuff and then landfill. And I think the landscape is
changing the very quickly. I just came from the SO
Energy Industry Association event earlier this week and there are
two new states added landfill bands this year alone, So
it's moving quickly. And I think you've got the Brussels
(14:03):
effect in Europe driving a lot of that. Right then,
they're way ahead of the US. But you know, states
like California and Washington are really driving quite an aggressive
policy agenda that is ultimately good for psych clarity, but
it's kind of pushing, you know, banning landfill bands, encouraging
extented produce responsibilities. These are all things that we try
to give companies visibility on. SO as kind of an enterprise,
(14:25):
daid's a platform we can look at the state and
county level where these assets are being kept, and then
we can help show them what regulations apply to them.
And I think again that's kind of a key driver
of how to recover value, is like what are the
costs associated and how to handle it properly.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
So you're describing urban mining as the activity that we're
ultimately beginning to systematize. Does that mean we're going to
dig up everything in the landfills and start to sort
through it to pull the gold and cobalt inother materials out.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So that is getting a little bit further down our
product roadmap I want to talk about, but I think
it's absolutly right. As I love the term of and mining,
obviously it can mean a lot of different things. So
I think for context, it is the electronics around us
in the bill environment is the richest mining seam on earth.
We've already gone to the work of digging it out
of the ground, finding it into a product and a material,
(15:20):
and yet we see such low recycling rates. I think
the issue at hand is that it's a highly disaggregated
supply and there's a lot of kind of institutional know
how and what has value. And again that's what we're
trying to provide some rigid to how do you measure that?
And your really landful mining has come up a lot.
I think it is a pretty obvious opportunity, especially given
(15:42):
some of the older electronics that are out there and
most of them are buried. The manfield by now are
a much higher density in certain critical minerals, So I
have no doubt that that is going to be a
source of feedstock in the future. I don't think it's
it's quite what we're focused on, but it's all part
of that umbrella tom of like how do we collect
(16:02):
what's in the out there? And you know, I think
there are just so many tail winds now from a
political point of view, but also if you look at
the downstream investment that's going into novel recycling processes, automated shreading,
sorting facilities, and biogenics which are really increasing recovery rates.
These are all amazing things and I think are really
(16:23):
setting the foundation for this kind of up and mining
world where the un economics of material recovery improved significantly,
which is great for the industry, and I think as
it relates to where we fit in all of that
downstream investment is amazing, It is much needed. It is
a huge boost to the industry, but none of those
businesses can be successful without feedstock. It was this.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Possible before the advent of AI. I mean, we were
talking before we went on the air about the fact
that you launched your beta three months after the team
went full time, and that's obviously an accelerated process. But
would it even have been possible to undertake business without
the ability to use AI to optimize the network?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Not at all. And I think it's one of the
you know, it's from where we're sitting, it's a really
exciting real world use case for AI, and you know,
a sustainability use case as well, and it just wasn't possible.
I think if you just look at the sheer amount
of data that we're having to crunch through. The also
kind of the it's still manual in a lot of cases,
(17:28):
kind of data collection, cleaning, sorting these proprietary data sets
to train the models and kind of derive these insights
like it was. I think there are kind of fringe
examples of where it had been done on a specific
device type or category, but the idea of being able
to do it across all these different industries and devices
was just simply untenable even you know, a year ago,
(17:48):
And so I think we're really kind of meeting that
moment with leveraging this amazing new technology to do something
that hasn't been done before.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You just gestured at the fact that there are a
number of companies that for their on purposes recycle and
recover their materials, Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Are you aiming also
to extend into the consumer electronic space to offer the
same sort of orchestration. And if you do that, do
you see offering that as a service to those large
companies or are they your competitor?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I definitely don't think the competitors. It's it's interesting, it's
sort of where to start. I think, one, we've got
our hands full in the energy and industrial space. I
think it's just a lot of opportunity there. And also
from a just a massive material point of view, it's
a really high large segment. It's hard to go into
kind of enterprise recycling without running into consumer electronics, right,
(18:42):
So it's a lot of crossover in your IT assets
and consumers. So it seems like it's inevitable that I'd
say as it relates to Apple and others. They're a
great but bell weather for the rest of the economy.
The fact that they're doing this is the fact that
they've actually led into such clarity really is just testaments
the value that can provide. And I think when we
talk about it entirely, we talk about the blended benefit
(19:04):
of psuchularity. It is both a sustainability benefit, but it's
also really important for customer attention and then also the
certified pre owned programs increase your installed based So from
a business point of view, you're selling new products, which
is great for revenue, you're reducing your missions and sustainability
for all, but you're also kind of actually creating a
new coss of pre owned devices that grow your install base.
(19:28):
So this is a a kind of win win win
that is a bit of a no brainer for these businesses,
and the fact that Apple anothers are doing it is
a great sign.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So we've unpacked all the complexity. I think we should
take a quick commercial break and then we'll get right
back to continue the conversation. Welcome back to sustainability in
your ear. We're talking with Alexander Olison. He's co founder
and CEO of the newly launched urban mining company Buckstop.
But Alexander, you were also the founder of Babylon Microfarms
(20:00):
and you grew that into a vertical farming leader. How
would you characterize the progress in vertical farming since we
last talked.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Wow, that's a big question. You know. I'm sitting on
the sidelines these days, but still cheering on bab On
and remain actively involved there on the board. The space
is really interesting and I think there's one it's absolutely
essential for in the long run, and I think the
un economics are being proven out across certain categories and
(20:29):
certain types of vertical farming systems. But you know, there's
certainly some headwinds. The capital landscape has shifted. I think
a lot of ans capital float into the space, some
some could say too much. The long term need for
the industry is certainly there, and I don't think consumer
habits towards kind of local farming, high quality produce, less
(20:50):
food miles, less waste is going to go away. I
think I think all of those things are there that
set industry up for long term success. However, you know,
clearly a lot of capital float into the space. There
are a lot of very exciting companies that have gone away,
and I think that leaves the industry a little bit
of a black eye, and that's that's definitely challenging for
everyone that operates in it. And as it relates to Babbelon,
(21:11):
we've were fortunate to be differentiated. We sell hardware, we
sell software, don't sell produce. But you know, it's a
challenging space and I think a lot of this vibe
shift against ESG and other things that doesn't doesn't help
the industry, you know, because a lot of these companies
wanted to invest in the latest, greatest thing, and we're
(21:31):
seeing this in solar as well. You know, people are
are sort of just a change in attitude towards investing
in these sustainable technologies, which is which is challenging. But
you know, again, I continue to be a really big
believer in the multical farming space in the long run
and a babble and we're lucky to have Markoshima, who's
one of the co founder Error Farms take over.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
So I'm curious what technical or business assumptions have held
up from the beginning of Babylon microfarms and which ones
turned out to be you know, grossly overestimated it or
underestimated what surprised you about it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Called that I could give you a long list for
a whole whole other episode on this, but I think
I think for us, the complexities of manufacturing hardware from
scratch were just immense. You know, it was it was
a very steep learning curve for us as a company
developing a novel hardware system, and so you know that
(22:25):
that was was a steep learning curve. Again, we're pretty
differentiated in the market is making hardware and is selling
the supporting software. But I think those are some of
the bigger learning learning sort of really around the production side.
But as it relates the industry, I think just generally,
these small modular systems look to be pretty successful. You know,
(22:48):
there are others in our kind of nascent segment alongside
Babylon that seems to be having a lot of commercial
traction just on the basis of being very accessible, smaller scale,
And it's just interesting to see that some of the
small modular systems that were written off five ten years
ago seemed to be the ones having the most commercial
success these days.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You've moved from one industry to another, But what about
Babylon microfarms experience informed your urban mining aspirations were the inspirations.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, so it absolutely wouldn't be doing boks up without
a lot of the hard earned learnings through becoming an OEM.
And I think while we were in the voltical farming space,
we were primarily a manufacturer of equipment and appliances. So
we developed patented into the Things platform and we were
manufacturing a product with about twelve hundred unique components. So
(23:38):
you know, this is a pretty heavy engineering and manufacturing challenge,
which you know, I'm very grateful to have gone through
lund a lot. And you know, as I mentioned earliers,
like I saw that anything that's electronic, it goes absollete.
Things break. This is just how it is and what
happens then, And that was really something I was seeing
fasthand where our operations teams they want to install the
(24:00):
next farm, they want to help our existing customers. If
something comes offline for whatever reason, that is their lowest priority,
and it led to a lot of value destruction. As
someone who knew all Villain materials, I was like this,
it's insane to me that some of these things are
in the up and line fill. So that was one
of the core insights where I was like, this is
a real operational problem. There's a lot of value destruction.
(24:22):
And I was fortunate to know a lot of folks
in renewables, robotics, other kind of distribute hardware systems, and
they all have exactly the same problem. So I think
one of you knows. As I was learning through, I
was like, Wow, why is there no kind of comprehensive
end of life solution or technology assets? And that was
really what Yeah, I mean, it's what we're trying to
build today, a boxed up well.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And turning back to buck Step and in terms of
recycling and materials recovery, are you thinking that you're going
to ultimately build processing capabilities or are you consistently going to
rely on third party recyclers? And if that's what's your business,
is it about relationships or is it about information?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
We are not getting into the recycling business. I think
there's so much innovation and also a lot of incumbent
players that are a really important part of this. And
I think for us in the context the industry, you've
got a lot of downstream processing, a lot of new
stuff coming online, and that is amazing for the processing side,
but it's really around sourcing and aggregation. So in the industry,
(25:24):
we're sitting at about twenty percent of electronics recycling the US,
So there's eighty percent of this stuff's out there, and
how are we going to recover that? So our role
in the industry, as we see it, is to help
measure the deployed feedstock across all of these different electronic
device categories and then provide the foundation from which we
can sort, aggregate, and actually provide more feedstock to these
(25:47):
downstream processes.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
You know, getting enough material to make a process economically
viable is always the big challenge. Do you see these
recyclers beginning to come to you to talk about their
future access to content that they can process in order
to maximize the return on their investment in new infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
We're a little early to say on that front. I
think the main thing for us is about helping the
asset owners know what they have so they can make
better decisions. So, you know, in the context of secularity
and the economic benefits of circularity, which is what we're
trying to frame, there's like a lot of these companies
are not prioritizing electronic waste, recycling, resale, like just the
(26:28):
value or covery portion in the way that they could
be and so that's where our information tools come in.
And so I think we're seeing a lot of the
interest in demand on that front, which is really exciting.
And then as that picks up, we're going to start
to see, you know, a lot We're mapping these seams
of value right in these deployed assets, and so once
those seams are mapped, the next step is really trying
to help them find the right resale or recycling partner
(26:52):
to process those assets.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
We're talking about complete systems changes in terms of industrial processes,
and a couple of weeks ago, spoke with Tom Zaki,
the CEO of terror Cycle, and he argued that the
waste industry needs to evolve just about handling everything as
waste essentially. But the way he suggested to do that
was think of it as the packaging industry that they
introduce a new service layer that takes back packaging and
(27:16):
products at the end of life, it becomes a component
of the brand experience. Do you see buck Stop as
potentially being the activator of a new service economy around
electronic infrastructure and electronics materials that changes the way we
interact with, acquire and dispose of things at the end
of life.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah. Absolutely, that is Our goal is to be the
kind of embedded cell clarity solution that lets any one
who owns these assets, all the OEMs implement sell clarity.
That is absolutely part of our roadmap. And I think
in terms of how we're doing that, we have built
out this kind of repeatable valuation framework that we're scaling
across different VOT schools, which is going to really help
(28:00):
kind of set a baseline measurement for what's out there,
and once you measured it, then you can start to
the lair on these kind of take back programs among
other things to help kind of basically enable the sector economy.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
So do you see a new class of work emerging
out of this. We talked about the role of AI,
but humans are still essential, particularly to the interpersonal interactions
around the transfer of materials for recycling. Is there a
new economy in terms of a new workforce that we
need to evolve in order to get to this circular vision?
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah? Absolutely, And I think you're saying that, you know,
it's really not just us, but in recycling, in the
solar industry, you have repowering, and there's a whole kind
of WORKPLOCE development angle that is happening to help facilitate
these upgrades and so forth. Yes, I think from the
workforce idea and the circular economy is a really exciting
prospect because you know, if you look historically, it's only
in recent decades that we've moved this kind of take
(28:57):
make waste economy, and I think as you look further ahead,
you can see circularity PRECTS is being built into these products.
You just like people have phones now for two or
three years and then you're expected to get a new one,
and they're often on a lease. I think we see
that that is likely to be a trend for all
kind of smart devices, where the kind of analogue devices
(29:17):
that lasted for ten years and then you you know,
throw away they break are probably going to replaced these
smart devices on shorter life spans that are created more likely.
So that's exciting. But to enable that, we're going to
have to build new tools for reverse logistics at its core,
like how do you get stuff from B to A
instead of A to B? And so I think there's
a lot of things that need to happen for that,
(29:37):
I think it's a little bit ahead of where we
sit in the chain, but we're like, you know, as
I said, if you can't measure it, you can't improve it.
And so we're starting there. And yeah, there are a
lot of downsciare implications if you kind of play this
out and envision the secular economy at scale, Yeah, you've
got a whole new section of the economy that's going
to grow to support this kind of collection, infrastructure, processing,
(29:59):
upside clean reselling and so forth.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
We're talking about something emerging rather than the end of
an old economy. And so you've you've launched your data.
What are we going to be watching for for the
next few months from Buckstock.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
So for us right now, it's about getting this tool
out into the hands of as many kind of renewal
learmentry folks as possible. So we're seeing great adoption in
the solar space, and you know, it's a really useful
tool to understand what you have. You know, I think
for anyone out there kind of who has a balance
sheet that they're looking after, like, wouldn't you want to
know what the residual value is in your fixed assets.
(30:35):
I think that's the kind of cool question. You know,
we talked about the secularity delta. I think we're honing
in on our kind of pricing algorithms. We're finding the
models there to give it a very like high fidelity
look on what's out there and what's it worth, and
so I think that piece of the business is moving
very quickly. So our goal here is to kind of
grow beyond renewables into other kind of energy and industrial
(30:59):
assets and really kind of set the scene for evaluation
layer that can help with all of these kind of upgrades.
I'm sure you're seeing there's a ton of investment going
to data centers, energy, all of that, but with every
new investment, there's waste and there's a lot of upgrades
and stuff that needs to happen to be able to
support that build out. So's we're really meeting that moment
(31:20):
with a tool that can help value these assets and
help inform those kind of upgrade cycles.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
An exciting vision. How can folks keep up with your work?
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So I think follow us on on buckstop dot com.
I'm also very active on LinkedIn and x. We're trying
to kind of do this whole building public things so
posting lots of updates on there, and yeah, really looking
to connect with anyone who's deploying technology assets and is
curious about what their set clarity delta is. We can
help you figure it out.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Alexander, thanks so much for your time. Again, it was
great to talk with you.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Thanks Mitch, great to be here.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Welcome back to sustainability in your ear. You've been listening
to a conversation with Alexander Olison, co founder and CEO
of Buckstop. It's a pioneering circular electronics company aiming to
build the information layer that will support tracking, valuing, and
recovering electronic components and critical minerals in the renewable energy infrastructure.
(32:21):
You can learn more about the company and sign up
for its beta assessment tool at bostop dot com. Alexander's
strategy underscores the problem with the concept of waste, that is,
the idea that stuff is worthless after its primary industrial
use value is depleted. When we talk about waste, we
ignore the residual value of materials that have already been
(32:42):
mined and refined, instead of recognizing those previous investments in
materials as available and profitable paths to a reusable infrastructure,
and as part of that infrastructure the opportunity to create
a new service layer that ensures there is no waste,
only materials that are in perpetual use. In other words,
a new economy a circular one. Buckstop's measurement of the
(33:04):
value of materials currently embedded in the economy in one
generation of infrastructure sets the stage for circulars solutions that
can keep critical minerals lithium and silicon in circulation. A
valuation layer in the economy enables creative financing and can,
as Alexander shared, lift the recovery value of materials from
between one and five percent to north of twenty percent.
(33:27):
It's effectively found money, a potential lift in the efficiency
of capital that can kick start electronics circularity. Buckstop's challenge, however,
will be to sustain itself through the first generation of
use of the assets that it's measuring today. That is,
in order to help cash in on that value when
the first wave of upgrades comes to pass. But as
we've heard, the company has built a lean model, one
(33:50):
accelerated by artificial intelligence, taking only three months to go
from launch to beta product. Buckstop may be the innovator
that captures enough data that represents sufficient value that customers
will continue to willingly pay to track those assets so
that they can liberate the embedded value in the first
generation of renewable energy infrastructure when upgrade time comes. If,
(34:13):
as the saying goes, data is the new oil, Buckstop
is filling reservoirs with future value. It will be fun
and probably a little harrowing to watch. So stay tuned
for the next chapter in Buckstop's journey, and I hope
they take a moment to check out any of the
more than five hundred episodes of Sustainability in Your Ear
that we've produced. Please share them with others. Writing a
(34:35):
review on your favorite podcast platform will help your neighbors
find us. You, folks, are the amplifiers that can spread
more ideas to create less waste, So please tell your friends, family,
and co workers. They can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio,
Audible or other purveyors of podcast goodness. Thank you for
your support on Mitracliffe. This is Sustainability in Your Ear
(34:58):
and we will be back with another inn better interviews soon.
In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care
of one another. And let's all take care of this
beautiful planet of ours. Have a green day,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Medal of Honor: Stories of Courage
Rewarded for bravery that goes above and beyond the call of duty, the Medal of Honor is the United States’ top military decoration. The stories we tell are about the heroes who have distinguished themselves by acts of heroism and courage that have saved lives. From Judith Resnik, the second woman in space, to Daniel Daly, one of only 19 people to have received the Medal of Honor twice, these are stories about those who have done the improbable and unexpected, who have sacrificed something in the name of something much bigger than themselves. Every Wednesday on Medal of Honor, uncover what their experiences tell us about the nature of sacrifice, why people put their lives in danger for others, and what happens after you’ve become a hero. Special thanks to series creator Dan McGinn, to the Congressional Medal of Honor Society and Adam Plumpton. Medal of Honor begins on May 28. Subscribe to Pushkin+ to hear ad-free episodes one week early. Find Pushkin+ on the Medal of Honor show page in Apple or at Pushkin.fm. Subscribe on Apple: apple.co/pushkin Subscribe on Pushkin: pushkin.fm/plus
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com