May 25, 2025 • 45 mins
In this transformative final episode of the season, global CEO coach and author Sabina Nawaz shares her journey from Microsoft software engineer to executive leadership expert, offering practical strategies for career transitions and authentic leadership.
Discover the power of "blank space" - intentional quiet time that can unlock career clarity and creative solutions. Sabina reveals how pressure can either corrupt your leadership or fuel innovation, and why many successful women fall into the "sole provider trap" that leads to burnout.
Learn actionable techniques for managing workplace pressure, getting honest feedback as a leader, and staying authentic while meeting business needs. Whether you're considering a career pivot, struggling with leadership challenges, or seeking more fulfillment in your professional life, this episode provides concrete tools for transformation.
Key topics include executive coaching strategies, women in leadership, career development, workplace authenticity, feedback culture, and finding purpose in your professional journey. Perfect for aspiring leaders, current managers, and anyone navigating career transitions in today's competitive workplace.
Guest: Sabina Nawaz, author of "You're the Boss: Become the Manager You Want to Be and Others Need," former Microsoft executive, and faculty member at Northwestern and Drexel universities. https://sabinanawaz.com/
Takeaways:
Deciding to work at Microsoft was a pivotal moment.
Quiet time can lead to significant insights.
Pressure can corrupt leadership behavior.
Finding joy in work is essential for fulfillment.
Authenticity in leadership is multifaceted.
Managing pressure is crucial for effective leadership.
Successful transitions require self-awareness and assessment.
Building a supportive network is vital for women in leadership.
Feedback quality is determined by the questions asked.
Success is about spending time wisely and fulfilling personal values.
Chapters:
00:00 The Importance of Blank Space
03:43 Facing Fears and Embracing Quiet Time
06:23 The Shift from Titles to Fulfillment
09:09 Managing Pressure and Power Dynamics
11:07 Authenticity in Leadership
13:59 Women in Leadership: Balancing Roles and Values
18:11 Navigating Authenticity in Leadership
19:21 Understanding Productive vs. Harmful Pressure
24:43 Career Transitions: Finding Fulfillment
28:11 Building Supportive Networks in Leadership
32:25 Common Leadership Pitfalls
33:59 Defining Personal Success
35:12 Transformative Feedback and Growth
39:17 Introduction to Transformation and Change
40:15 Insights from a Leadership Expert
41:32 Anticipating a Powerful Conversation
41:53 Introduction to the Influencer's Impact
41:54 Exploring the Reach of Articles
Discover the power of "blank space" - intentional quiet time that can unlock career clarity and creative solutions. Sabina reveals how pressure can either corrupt your leadership or fuel innovation, and why many successful women fall into the "sole provider trap" that leads to burnout.
Learn actionable techniques for managing workplace pressure, getting honest feedback as a leader, and staying authentic while meeting business needs. Whether you're considering a career pivot, struggling with leadership challenges, or seeking more fulfillment in your professional life, this episode provides concrete tools for transformation.
Key topics include executive coaching strategies, women in leadership, career development, workplace authenticity, feedback culture, and finding purpose in your professional journey. Perfect for aspiring leaders, current managers, and anyone navigating career transitions in today's competitive workplace.
Guest: Sabina Nawaz, author of "You're the Boss: Become the Manager You Want to Be and Others Need," former Microsoft executive, and faculty member at Northwestern and Drexel universities. https://sabinanawaz.com/
Takeaways:
Deciding to work at Microsoft was a pivotal moment.
Quiet time can lead to significant insights.
Pressure can corrupt leadership behavior.
Finding joy in work is essential for fulfillment.
Authenticity in leadership is multifaceted.
Managing pressure is crucial for effective leadership.
Successful transitions require self-awareness and assessment.
Building a supportive network is vital for women in leadership.
Feedback quality is determined by the questions asked.
Success is about spending time wisely and fulfilling personal values.
Chapters:
00:00 The Importance of Blank Space
03:43 Facing Fears and Embracing Quiet Time
06:23 The Shift from Titles to Fulfillment
09:09 Managing Pressure and Power Dynamics
11:07 Authenticity in Leadership
13:59 Women in Leadership: Balancing Roles and Values
18:11 Navigating Authenticity in Leadership
19:21 Understanding Productive vs. Harmful Pressure
24:43 Career Transitions: Finding Fulfillment
28:11 Building Supportive Networks in Leadership
32:25 Common Leadership Pitfalls
33:59 Defining Personal Success
35:12 Transformative Feedback and Growth
39:17 Introduction to Transformation and Change
40:15 Insights from a Leadership Expert
41:32 Anticipating a Powerful Conversation
41:53 Introduction to the Influencer's Impact
41:54 Exploring the Reach of Articles
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is amazing media production. Hello, good people, and welcome
back to another episode of the Switch Pivotal Quip podcast.
I'm your host, Ayana Angel, and I hope that you
are ready for some transformation, for some insights into the
(00:21):
ways that you can transform. Because this podcast is all
about change, and today will be no exception. I'm bringing
in the big guns. Today we're going to be speaking
with Sabina nWise, who is a global CEO, coach, leadership expert,
and author of You're the Boss, Become the Manager You
Want to Be and Others Need, which reveals how to
(00:43):
harness pressure and manage power to achieve extraordinary leadership results.
We are absolutely going to be talking about managing pressure.
We're going to be talking about navigating your career. We're
going to be talking about how you can sift through
some of your day to day experiences to figure out
what might be your next best move for you. So,
(01:05):
during Sabina's fourteen year tenure at Microsoft, she rose for
managing software development teams to leading to the company's executive
development and succession planning efforts for over eleven thousand managers
and executives. Sabina is a faculty member at Northwestern and
Drexel Universities, and her insights have been featured in multiple publications,
(01:28):
including The Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes,
and many more. Her articles have reached more than seven
point five million people. Seven point five Yeah, she's that good.
People want to know what she has to say, and
for good reason. Sabina is a force. Hear me when
(01:49):
I say that I enjoyed this conversation so much. I
was leaning in. I was hanging on her every word,
and I'm sure you will be too. Her store, telling
her anecdotes, her insights, all of it. Get ready for it,
because it's coming your way right now. Your career took
you from managing software teams to overseeing executive development for
(02:14):
thousands at Microsoft. If you were to think back, what
were some of the pivotal moments that you would call
out in your journey.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
The first pivotal moment Diana was deciding to take the
job at Microsoft. I was an immigrant from India and
had sent out one hundred and eighty different job applications
all over the country. Microsoft was one of the first
ones to call me at that point. They were a
small company. I had never heard of them. Never been
(02:42):
to Seattle, and I thought, Hey, they're going to fly
me over for free. This is a free sightseeing trip
to Seattle. Why not. I had no idea that I
would want to work there. I just did it on
a lark. But it was picking up on the energy
in the hallways. By my third interview, I was in love.
I was like, oh my gosh, I really want.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
To work here.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And they were the first ones to offer me a job.
So for me, it was really picking up on the
vibe in the hallways, picking up on the way people
interacted and the kinds of people I met with who
seemed like folks where I could do my best work
with them. So I didn't wait around for other offers,
sit and analyze. I just went with it, and I'm
(03:25):
so glad I did. So that was a big decision point. Obviously,
I went to school on the East Coast and then
moving three thousand miles away. Perhaps the biggest pivotal point
in my career, though, was when I switched from software
engineering to human engineering and organizational engineering. Microsoft offered offers
(03:45):
a sabbatical in eight weeks sabbatical if you meet certain criteria.
In about nine plus years into my career. I was
on the sabbatical. Now, my typical m o ayana is
go go, go, go, go, and pack everything too hundred percent.
So this was probably the first time in my life
where I did not do that. I had three weeks
(04:06):
of travel, started a nonprofit theater company, and then for
the rest of the time I didn't have much to do.
I was sitting on the couch eating proverbial bonbonds. And
I would recommend this for anybody going through a transition.
Is this idea that I talk about in my book,
(04:27):
You're the boss of blank space, which is unplugged from everything,
and just sit and think, sit and be. And of
course what happens when you sit and be is suddenly
you get these flashes of insight. For me, the flash
of insight was it was no longer a matter of if,
but when I would become a corporate vice president at
(04:47):
Microsoft and as a woman in a high tech sector,
that had definitely been one of my career goals. But
something really strange happened. So I get this flash of insight,
and then I go, if I already know the formula
of how to get there, it seems like I'd be
wasting my life for the next five years trying to
(05:07):
get there. Where's the challenge in that, where's the joy
in that? Where's the discovery and novelty in that? And
that was one of the most anticlimactic moments of my life.
I went, shoot, what do I do with myself? So
I think the second piece to think about when you're
in those pivotal moments, like many of your listeners are,
(05:27):
is what are you really good at? What really lights
you up. One of the things that people had always
told me was you're good with people, You're a good boss,
And so I thought, why don't I go see if
there's something where I can help other people become great bosses?
And that's how I shifted my career from software engineering
to working on people engineering.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
If you want, so many great things that you pointed out,
and I think the first one that I want to
call out is this blank space. I think is what
you call it? Yes, and this quiet time. Many of
us are afraid of that quiet time.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Terrified?
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, yeah, Why do you think we're terrified of that
quiet time? And what does that quiet time really look like?
Because I can easily see someone hearing you say that
and think that that quiet time means everything, but what
it actually means.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yes, And you know, I was one of those people.
I was even afraid to go to a restaurant by myself.
And you know, this was before cell phones were there
where you can hide behind your cell phone, and I'm like, yeah, okay,
I'm going to bring along a book so I can read.
And it's just I don't know why we're afraid of it.
Perhaps we forget that we are human beings and not
(06:40):
human doings. I also think that one of the reasons
we might be afraid of it is that would bring
us face to face with our fears. And you know,
I don't think we just fear filing our taxes or
a visit from our in laws. I think we fear
our dreams of dreaming big and playing big, because what
(07:01):
if we put ourselves out there saying I'm going to
play big and then we don't succeed. Yeah, And for
years I was terrified of that. I would just pick
my head up a little bit over the surface and
then go right back hiding behind busy playing small. So
I think it's actually quite intimidating for people to step
into playing big. Yeah. Well, I was thinking of quote
(07:23):
by a writer and spiritual teacher Mary and Williamson, where
she says that our deepest fears are not that we're inadequate,
but that we're powerful beyond measure, and that are playing
small doesn't serve the world. But it's one thing to
say it, it's another thing to do it. You had
also asked about, then, how do we do this? What
does this look like? In the world of work? When
(07:45):
I work with the executive side coach, I work with
them to schedule two hours a week, back to back,
two hours a week where they so you're not in
your office number one, you're not online super important, you're
not reading, you're not talking to anybody, You're just by yourself.
(08:05):
This can look different for different people. In its purest form,
you're spending two hours by yourself, doing absolutely nothing and
seeing what happens. Now, that is just way too much
for most people to start out with. So you could
start with a more modest way of doing this. Okay,
start with fifteen minutes, hex start with one minute. If
you cannot tolerate that silence and not doing anything, now,
(08:29):
you could go for a walk. One person I work with,
Lizan A. Hammock, someone else wants to sample all the
pie shops in their city. So every blank space date,
they go to a new pie shop, order two pies
for those two hours. I hope they run or exercise
after that too, but they sit there. You could bring
(08:50):
along a book and doodle. Somebody brings along a coloring
a sketchbook with the crayons, and they draw, because that's
how they get their juices flowing. But also from a
work perspective, another person I work with keeps a running
list and in sticky notes and scribbled notes and whatever.
And then she just brings all of those things from
(09:11):
her running list to her blank space. And something phenomenal happened.
As she started looking at all of those notes, she
realized it wasn't any one of those things. When she
looked at them together, the big picture made her realize
how they're missing a massive opportunity in their business. She
wrote a memo, got a double level promotion, and got
(09:32):
put in charge of that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
But she wouldn't have been able to do that if
she had just been focusing on the sticky in front
of her nose. It took stepping back and looking at
all of those and making them fly information.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And also giving herself that time to step back from
seemingly the work and being busy doing the work, to
really give her brain the space to think about things,
maybe even in an abstract way, which costs her create
those sticky notes.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I love that exactly. You get more creative. And you know,
some people say, well, I'm just not the creative type.
I'm like, I think there's a creativity in all of us.
Five year old says I'm not the creative type. We
just don't allow that to come out.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Another thing that you called out in thinking about your
pivotal moments was this I guess aha moment that you
had the solution of how to get to where you
thought you wanted to be right, but that felt a
little lackluster at that point. Why do you think that was,
And like, how did you reconcile with that? Because so
many people spend so many years trying to get to
(10:37):
a certain point and maybe don't even know how to
get there right, But here you are seemingly having the
answers and knowing how to get there. Didn't take some
of the fun out of it? Is that what made
it no longer attractive to you?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
For me, I realized it wasn't about the title, and
it wasn't about proving this to the world. It was
simply proving it to myself. Can I get there? And
when I knew the answer inside me with absolute conviction
that yes I can, I don't need to do more
of that. That's one piece. But what I underneath that,
(11:13):
what I also realize aana is what really excites me,
what gives me joy. And it's not the title. It's
not becoming something. It's being in the moment and working
on novel things, working to continue to learn and grow
and push myself. And if I'm just following a formula
that's not novel to me. Now I am not alone.
(11:34):
This is something I discovered quite by accident with my clients.
I noticed that I've worked with super senior executives, and
I noticed that many of them were coming to me saying, Okay,
so all my career, I've been chasing this. I've been
trying to get there. I've been managed larger teams, get
paid better, bigger and bigger jobs, and now I've got
(11:57):
it all. I've got it all, But what I don't
have is a sense of fulfillment, a sense of joy,
I'm not sure what's going on, and it got me
really curious, you know, and being an engineer by training,
I'm like, okay, let's reverse engineer this, let's debug this.
What's going on here? Why is that?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Ooh? I know is getting good. But we'll be right
back after we hear from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So I created a tool called the Joy Line, which
is in You're the Boss in my book, and it's
simply a line, a vertical line that is chronological with
your life. Now, on one side of that line, list
out about ten events from your life that have given
you great amounts of joy. And on the other side
(12:54):
of the line, list out about ten events in your
life that have sucked the joy out of you. And
when you do that, you start to recognize what you're
truly after. How do you get back to passion purpose
when you feel untethered, when you've lost that plot of
your entire life. So it's a tactical, tangible way from
(13:19):
your own experience. You don't need to go to therapy,
you don't need to work with a coach, you don't
need to do any of those things. Just from your
own experience, capturing that will help you arrive at it.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Wow. I love that sometimes we overlook what brings us
joy because we're so quick to be onto the next,
onto the next, onto the next. So it sounds like
a very useful exercise for sure. And speaking about your book,
You're the Boss. In the book, you discuss how pressure
can corrupt actions and power can blind us. Can you
(13:54):
share an example from your own career where you recognize
this to be true?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Absolutely? Absolutely, And that is one of the stories I share,
which is when I was running management development executive development,
and the day I was coming back from parental leave.
So here I am putting on lipstick for the first
time in five months, and my assistant Lori calls me.
She's got like a slightly frantic edge to her voice,
(14:20):
going where are you? Steve expects you in thirty minutes.
So I'm hitting warp speed on my way to work.
This is the first day after parental leave, mind you,
and I'm asking Lori to read the memo that I
need to know because this Steve happens to be Steve Bomber,
the CEO of Microsoft, and that sets the pace and
(14:41):
tone for my return to work. Overflowing in box, jam
packed calendar meeting with senior executives and an infant at home,
So no sleep, no peace, no patience, and I'm morph
from being the best boss ever, which is the feedback
I've gotten caring, compassionate, and nurturing to short and snippy.
(15:02):
I start micromanaging because I'm worried that we will look
incompetent to senior executives. Whenever somebody comes to my office,
I've got all my hands on the keyboard, looking over
my shoulder, going yes, you know, signaling you're less important
than me. I'm very busy. And here's the bad part
of this. Amids all this pressure. I thought I was
(15:25):
managing this pressure really well. I thought I was being efficient.
And then my colleague Joe comes to my office and
I'm there, you know, looking over my shoulder, Yes, Joe, right.
And I took one look at his face and I know, oh,
something is going on. So I turned my full attention
(15:46):
and he says, do you know that Zach is crying
in his office because of something you said? And my
whole body turns hot with shame. Yeah, And I think,
how did I go from being caring and nurturing to this?
To people are afraid of and clearly don't like. I
go to Zach's office, I apologize, and I I start
(16:09):
brimming with tears. And that's when I realize, Aana, that
this is what I want to treat people as human beings.
But what had happened. Pressure hadn't just squeezed my time.
It had queezed out my humanity. And I'm barking out orders,
I'm micromanaging. I'm going, oh, there'll be time for empathy
(16:30):
later on. They're big boys and girls, right, So that's
how pressure corrupted my actions. And then power comes in.
So pressure is this silent corrupt, and power is this
great divider, especially for a boss who's acting out. Who's
going to go tell them boss, you're acting like a
jerky so instead nobody right, Instead, people are going, oh,
(16:51):
you're great, yep, that's fine, whereas they're starting a secret
group chat in the meantime about my management practices.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Power just keeps you insulated, isolated from the effect that
you're having on other people when you're not managing your pressure.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, wow, I love that story. That's so real. It's
I feel like it's very relatable, and it's also like
really big of you to have shared that in your
book and to continue sharing it because those are the
moments that I think a lot of other people would
run from, especially if they don't choose to do anything
about it. And so you're in this moment Zach is
(17:34):
crying or at least watery eyed, feeling some emotion, and
you know you're the cause of it. What are the
next steps that you take? Like? How do things change
for you from there?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yes? And for me and the people I work with,
it's first recognizing recognizing that you're at play here. It's
not Zach, it's you. Yeah, Because a lot of people
will tell me, oh, oh, well, if they had done
things faster, if they've done things better, I'm like, yeah,
not buying that. What is it that's within your control?
How you're coming across and you have a megaphone. Just
(18:11):
like their feedback to you is muted, your feedback to
them is amplified. It's a two way volume switch that
works in opposite directions, right, So everything you're saying is
going to be a lot more severe, lot more taken
personally for them when there is this power gap, this
power differential. So first step is of course recognizing the
(18:31):
part you play the second is how do you manage
your pressures? How do you manage your pressure so you're
not coming across in ways that have a negative effect.
It has a negative effect on the person. It's not
just Zach is crying. Zach is also not doing any
work right. It's a distraction at best. I mean, research
(18:52):
actually shows that when bosses treat employees poorly, employees deliberately
sabotage their work. I believe right, They want to. They
screw over their own results just to get back at
the boss. Revenge sabotage, right. So it's vitally important to
do something about this because you know, here's the good news.
(19:14):
Pressure can also be great. That's what diamonds are formed under.
That's where we get scrappy and creative and innovative. So
how do you manage those pressures. One way to manage
it is blank space, because when we feel pressure, do nothing.
Take that time to step back, because when you step back,
you realize all those little things, all those sticky notes
(19:35):
that I was telling you about, don't matter. Here's the
big picture that matters. This is where I need to
focus on. Gives your brain a rest, It makes you
realize the answers are inside you. You just needed some
quiet for those voices to be heard. So in many ways,
just doing nothing when you're under pressure is a way
to manage it.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I like that. Yeah, I want to talk about the
respect of women within this POV a little bit. So
you talk about becoming the boss that you want to be,
right and that others need. How can women stay authentic
to themselves and what they know to be true about
(20:18):
themselves as leaders, but also still meet the needs of
the team in the business.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yes, yes, well two things. First of all, authenticity is
not singular. It should not exist in a singular form.
Because how I'm showing up with you, am I putting
on a show?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
An act?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Am I completely different from who I am? I hope not. Yeah,
there is an authentic version of me that's showing up
in this role as a podcast guest and an author.
If I show up this way talking to my kids,
they're going to go, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Right?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Is that not authentic? Of course it's authentic. That's in
my role as mother, which might be slightly different, slightly
similar to my role as wife and partner to my husband, right,
which is very different from how I might show up
with my girlfriends, which would be very different from how
I show up on a big keynote stage when I'm
(21:15):
talking to five ten thousand people. So which one is authentic? Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
All of them?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And as women, it's important to recognize that you play
many different roles, sometimes too many roles perhaps, and when
we play those roles, what's most important from our values perspective.
I think a lot of times when we talk about authenticity,
we talk about our values. So from a values perspective,
(21:44):
what's most important to me to uphold in this relationship
and what's expected in this role that I deliver while
keeping the thing that's most important to me in this relationship.
For example, right here in this moment with you, im,
what's important for me is being connected with the podcast host,
(22:05):
So making a connection with them and understanding maybe not
as well as you, but the needs of the audience.
So I can speak with that in mind right now.
Within that, there's plenty of stuff I can do that
are just myself. So similarly, as a manager, when you're
managing other people, if you go, yeah, I've got to
(22:27):
be my authentic self and scream when they haven't done
something that's not going to get you what you want.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
You mentioned that we managed correctly, and we sort of
touched on this a bit ago. Pressure can be a
good thing. It can even create possibilities. How can women
distinguish between productive pressure that drives them to be more creative,
to grow, to manage better, But then there's the other
(22:55):
side that's that harmful pressure that can lead to them
being burnt out, you know, feeling too much stress. Like,
how can women manage or navigate the sides of that
so that they can maybe welcome pressure but also navigate
pressure in a way that doesn't take too much out of.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Them by focusing on the right things. Okay, here's what
I mean by that. Ask yourselves a few questions. One,
are you the only one who's always bringing up ideas? Two?
Do people ever debate your ideas or they just go
yes because they're perfectly happy for you to bring up
the idea and do the work. Are you the one
(23:37):
who's working harder than everybody else? True for me as
a woman when I first started my career. Are you
justifying all of your actions with a yeah? But yeah,
but it's a particularly busy time of year. Now, challenge you,
when is it not a particularly busy time of year.
Can you tell me that? Not really right? So ask
(23:57):
yourself these questions to diagnose. Are you the one who
has fallen into what I call the sole provider trap?
That is, I'm the only person who can do all
these things. There's a client of mine who one of
the things she was working with me on is creating
more spaciousness, being able to have time to be more strategic.
(24:19):
She was incredibly hard working, had four kids, worked after
dinner and then said, and then, you know, I'm done
with work by about ten eleven, but then I'm up
until midnight, and then it starts again at five in
the morning. And I said, who whoa wa wait a minute,
So what is it that you're doing between ten thirty
and midnight. Well, I got to load the dishwasher. I
(24:41):
got to clean the kitchen table. And I said, okay,
let's stop right there. You've got four kids who are
old enough to be able to load the dishwasher. So
help me understand. Why is it that you're loading the dishwasher.
She said, Well, it's not that they're not willing, but
they put the forks tye side down, and that's just wrong,
(25:03):
you know, so I have because either they do it
and then I have to redo it. Heck, it's much
easier for me to just do it. That would be
an example of doing the wrong work.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Mm hmmm, mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
And as we managed to get her to loosen her
grasp and being the sole provider of loading the dishwasher,
guess what. The first couple of days, things didn't even
get loaded, let aloneloaded wrong and they had to eat
off of paper plates. And then the paper plates ran out,
and she wasn't going to go buy more. And suddenly,
you know what, her husband, her kids all stepped up
(25:35):
and they started loading the dishwasher and nothing happened to
the forks. Right, whether they were loaded down or up.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
It was okay.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
And she got some space and some time to sleep
and therefore manage pressure in a more healthy fashion. Yeah right,
So check when you have those soul provider tendencies, and
how might you loosen your grasp.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
That soul provider tendencies. I love that. I feel like
that's a cousin to controlling tendencies.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, you know, I mean, soul
provider is so common that I have four archetype soul providers.
One is the caretaker. I'll just take care of my team.
And this one, by the way, women tend to fall
into quite a bit. There's the flash I can do
it a lot faster, so I'll just do it in
a flash. But of course then you're doing it every
(26:32):
single time. There's the straight a student that has to
be an M dash not an N dash, and you're
the CEO of a company and you're sitting and working
on that. So there's all these different flavors of soul provider.
Oh and then there's the whack a mole champ. This
is the person who puts the thing on their to
(26:53):
do list even though it's done, just so that they
can cross it off, right. And by the way, I'm
guilty of many of these.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
So yes, yes, I think we all are. And that's
one thing I would challenge those of you listening to
do is think about what Sabina just said in assess
which one could I be playing a role with and
not even really realizing it. That's a good way to
sort of self assess, because a lot of this is
being self aware. When we're self aware, then we can
(27:22):
take action to do things differently. If that is what
it needed.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
And those questions will help you. I have a set
of forty two questions at the back of the book
to raise your own awareness. Because again, remember, if you're
in a position of power, and that doesn't have to
be formal corporate power, you could be a parent, you
could be somebody with more knowledge and information. When you're
in that position, no one's going to tell you this.
(27:48):
So these questions can help you be your own detective
and sleuth out where do you fall most prey to
where do you get sucked in the most into that
pressure of our text.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I know you're locked insight and souking of all this goodness,
but hold on for me just one minute or maybe
two while we hear from our sponsors. Speaking of our listeners,
many are contemplating career transitions. Are there any patterns, maybe
that you've observed regarding successful transitions versus those that led
(28:26):
people to be regretful about their decisions?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, the first thing to think about is what do
you want to do in that new job? Is it
are you doing it as a rebound. It's easy to
take what you've been successful at and just replicate that
somewhere else, but is that still something that feeds you,
just like it didn't feed me. Sometimes we're good at something,
but that's not what we want to do anymore. For example,
(28:52):
I was very good at managing large scale, complex projects
and taking twenty different stakeholders who all have very strong
opinions about the thing, and getting it all integrated and
moving in the same direction. I was really good at that.
I hated doing it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
How long did it take you to figure out you
hated doing it?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Gosh, like I would say, like four years, five years,
something like that. But here's the thing. When you do
that well and you're in a transition, somebody else is
going to go, oh, you did that, we need that,
and it's easy for them and you to slot yourselves
into a comfort zone. And so I had to deliberately
go to my boss and say, this project is going
(29:37):
to sunset. You're going to put me on something else.
I do not want to be on this kind of thing.
Here's what I want to do instead. I want to
work with two or three people, not twenty different people,
and I want to design something. And his first response,
but you're so good at this, yes, and if you
give me a chance, I'll also be really good at
this other thing, this is what I really want to do.
(30:00):
So understanding that just because you've done something over and
over again, that's where people are going to want to
put you. How do you take that and boil down
the strength of that and put it into the new
plot that you want to put yourself in so you're
not copyhold.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And it sounds like that takes time though, right, and
this is not something we should expect to be able
to do overnight. This may take some self assessment, like
we talked about, some self awareness. It may take you
maybe learning some new skills, but it's a it's a
process worth doing so that whatever it is you want
to transition from, you don't find yourself just doing it
(30:37):
because it's the easy way out and you're miserable.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Absolutely, think about it as a playground. Eighty percent ninety
percent of your time you're doing a fantastic job at
what you're doing, but ten percent of the time you're
always on a playground. Transition isn't a uppercase t Oh,
now I'm going to transition, and I've got to do
that in the next four to six weeks. It is
your constantly thinking about where else should I experiment what
(31:02):
else should I play around with. Maybe you take a
poetry writing class, maybe you take a project management class,
whatever it is, see what those things really are while
you have the luxury of that time, of that playground space,
so that when it comes to transition, you have a
clearer sense of what you like and what you don't like.
You can also take those things and map those onto
(31:22):
the joyline we talked about, So now you have a
sense of thematically, what's common to the things that are
giving me hyjoin.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
I want to transition into feeling isolated in a leadership role.
I can easily see how women, especially in male dominated spaces,
and with that pressure and their leader, how you can
feel very isolated. Are there any tools that you recommend
for women being able to build like a supportive network
(31:53):
or system around them when they are in high profile
leadership roles or maybe even in mid level leadership roles
but still feeling that pressure.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
What a great question. I read research ones and I'm sorry,
I'm not going to be able to quote the source
at this point that women and people of color don't
receive as much feedback, so perhaps it's scarier in our
world to provide that feedback. But it gets in the
way of us than knowing what are some blockers, you
simply don't get invited to that customer meeting or whatever
(32:27):
it is. Right people are talking about it, thinking about it,
but behind your back. So one thing to do to
reduce some of that isolation is to engineer the kinds
of questions you ask for feedback that won't allow people
to wiggle away. The quality of feedback we receive is
directly proportional to the quality of the questions we craft
(32:49):
to seek that feedback. If you say, how did I do,
and especially when you're in a position of power, people
are going to go you did great? How did I do?
Is simply looking for a pad on the back and reassurance.
If you want reassurance, go ahead and keep asking that question.
If you want feedback, it's a waste of your time.
In fact, it's more damaging because you'll think you're doing
(33:10):
great when there are some fatal flaws potentially in how
you're showing up. So there are two things that are
vital to engineering a great feedback question. One, keep it
specific and simple. If you just said, hey, what did
I do well? And what did I not do well?
That's still better than how did I do? But it's
a very big question, and again, when you have that
(33:33):
power gap, it's hard, it's intimidating for people to give
you that kind of feedback. Instead, if you said, what's
one thing that I did really well? One thing, not fifteen,
not a general as, what's one thing that if I
did more of or less of, would have made this
go even better? Not what did I do poorly? Just
(33:55):
you want to be mindful and how you shape that
question so they are more comfortable sending you that. Now,
when they give you the feedback, your only response is
two words, thank you, because how you respond, especially in
a position of power, will determine how safe they feel
giving you that feedback. One of the trick that I've
used when I interview people to get feedback on their
(34:18):
bosses is use a third person question, that is, what
would my fans have said in that room? And what
would my critics have said in that room. That way,
the person giving you feedback does not have to take say, well,
let me be critical or I didn't like this. Well,
I loved everything you said, boss, But boy, if I
(34:40):
were to channel your crustiers critic, here's what they would say.
So that's another way to give people some space, some grace,
to provide you with honest feedback.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Because you've worked with so many different people, so many
different leaders, in different countries, in spaces, in different types
of organizations. Are there any common threads that you notice
to be let's say, issues that you would want to
pull out and say, we should really be more aware
(35:12):
of this as we're operating in these professional spaces.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah. Absolutely. The backbone of this book is twelve thousand
pages of barbatim feedback that people gave about their bosses,
what they think about their bosses, the good, the bad,
and the ugly. So from that I collected the common themes,
and the entire book is all the common things. The
top two things that people give us corrective feedback to
their bosses. One, this person has a hard impact on
(35:39):
me and other people. This is where that corrupted pressure
behavior shows up and they're not treating people well. I
was just this morning talking with somebody who got a
dressing down from someone two levels above him, and he said,
you know, she has many strengths, but being a human
is not one of them. Ouchy, right now, she was
(36:02):
the reason she gave the dressing down without taking, of course,
any accountability on herself. Was the pressure she had gotten
from the CEO of the company two levels above her,
and what a journalist had said about something that hit
a nerve. So she was under pressure, and what that
caused her to do is start yelling and dressing down
(36:23):
this one person in front of dozens of people, which
of course is not going to get.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Her what she wants. Yea.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So it's that it's really understanding those forces.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
What does success mean or look like to you? Or
for you?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Wow? Okay, two different questions that I'll start with. The
second one. For me, success looks like if this were
my last on earth, saying that I spent it wisely,
and again that goes back to not getting the title
and all these external trappings of success. For me, it's
(37:00):
if I have a reckoning and my time is up,
my timer runs out today, did I spend my time
the way I would have wanted to spend it? You know,
ten days ago, we were returning from a vacation in
a cab at three in the morning, three in the
morning because the flight had already been delayed by five hours,
and out of the blue, a drunk driver runs a
(37:23):
red light and t bones the cab right, and we
were very fortunate that we actually managed to walk out
of that, because a lot of people don't survive tea
boned accidents. We actually walked eight blocks to our home
with our suitcases. And I thought about that. You know,
Initially I was like, Oh my gosh, this is terrible.
And then the next day I woke up just filled
(37:45):
with gratitude that we could walk out of it, that
we were alive, that we have some minor issues, but
nothing in the grand scheme of things. And I reflected,
I said, what did I do that day if that
had been my last day? And I felt a deep
sense of fulfillment and satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I had spent it with the people I wanted to
spend it with. We had had a lovely time on
a tropical beach. We'd eaten good food, we'd sung some
great songs. Yeah, that sense of fulfillment as your last
day to mean that is success is doing what feels
right to you every single day of your life.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Final question, what is the most transformative piece of feedback
that you've personally received in your career?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Wow? You have brilliant questions, Anna, Oh, thank you. You
are so good at that. Yes, the piece of feedback,
and this applies to many women, so I will share
this one. I was painfully shy. Yeah, you're raising your
eyebrows like people do not believe that they're like you're
lying that could No, no, no, you weren't. How shy
(38:57):
were you really? Because I am so out there and
I am actually an extrovert. I'm a raging extrovert and
very outspoken and so on. But that's not how I
started my career. I was painfully shy, and in meetings
I wouldn't say a word, not a word. And one
of my bosses pulled me aside and said, if you
(39:18):
don't speak in meetings, no one knows what value you add.
Meetings are where careers are made and broken. And look
at this other woman who you really admire. Do you
think she got where she got by being quiet? So
he really gave me this cattle prod wake up call
of oh, I need to learn how to speak now.
(39:41):
For someone who never speaks in meetings, it's hard to
then speak like you and I are speaking right now.
So what are some baby steps? You might think? Okay,
have a strategy for when you're going to speak in
the meeting. Maybe you're the first one to speak, so
that if you have a hard time getting your voice
in hy when everybody else is starting in the cacophony,
(40:03):
be the first one to speak. You know, it's great
to see you all. I'm still thinking about what so
and so said from the last meeting. I really want
to make sure we discussed that today, looking forward to
what we're going to unfold here. Or maybe you speak
at the halfway mark. You take all the cacophony and
don't add your voice to that, but say something like,
(40:27):
can we pause for a moment. I'm hearing three different
directions that we've been going for the first half hour
of this meeting. Direction A, direction B, direction C. What's
common to all of them is X. I think we
really need to focus on X. That is a bold
boss move, a leadership move that then you're not just
(40:49):
another voice that's lost in the noise. You're adding value
by elevating the discussion, getting everyone out from the weeds
to what's really most important, and then pivoting the rest
of the discussion there.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Ooh, I love these so good, so good, Well, Sabina,
this has been such a rich conversation. Thank you so
much for bringing all of your wonderful energy to our listeners.
And as we wrap up, are there any final thoughts
that you have? You shared so much with us already,
but is there anything that we didn't touch on that
(41:24):
you're like, Oh, I really wanted to say this, or
this is something that I've been thinking and I really
wanted to share it.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Well, again, thinking about your audience, I would say, we've
talked about feedback, we've talked about being mindful of your
impact on other people, but go back to yourself as well,
and don't get overly shaken, don't get overly influenced by
what others are saying. If you can simply show up
to every interaction knowing that you are enough, Yeah, you
(41:54):
are enough, you will show up differently, trust that and
then allow things to unf.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I love that. I love that. Sabina, thank you so
much for joining us on the Switch, Pivot or Quit podcast.
It has truly been a pleasure and we look forward
to our next chat with you too.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Ooh, I'm looking forward to that. Dabella Yanna, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Having me of course, and all of you listening. I
hope that you are able to take notes. Maybe you
were in a position to take notes because Sabina gave
us so much good information to work with. I hope
that you're able to use it and soar and continue
to fly in your careers, in your everyday lives and
everything that you do. Before we close out this episode,
I want to take a moment for a little housekeeping,
(42:35):
so in an effort to preserve my energy and creativity
and keep the goodness and the content coming for you guys,
I've decided that I'm going to start producing seasons instead
of an always on podcasts. What does that mean? This
will be the last episode in this season. This is
technically season seven behind the scenes, that's what I'm calling it.
(42:59):
You don't need to concern yourself with that. But the
new season will start in September. So right now, we're
just gonna take a little summer break. And that doesn't
mean that you won't hear from me at all. I
will probably be uploading a few little sprinkles here and
there on the feed just to kind of touch base.
(43:19):
But new episodes, full episodes will be back in September.
And if you are looking for me and want to
hang out with me, still In the meantime, you can
always catch me on Instagram or you can also catch
me on YouTube. I've been producing the video version of
all of these episodes in this season, if you did
(43:39):
not know, and also releasing clips and all that good stuff.
So if you haven't already checked that stuff out, make
sure you go and check it out. And one last
thing I want to ask of you before we part
for the summer. If you are enjoying the Switch Credit
or Quid podcast and you haven't already done so, please
if you listen on Apple, feel free to head over
(44:02):
there and give us a review. Let me know what
you think of the show, let me know what you
think of the guests, let me know if there's anything
that you want to specifically hear from the show. And
if you've already left an Apple review, head over to
YouTube check out some of the videos, let me know
what you think of them. Let me know what you'd
(44:22):
like to see and hear from the podcast, as I
always listen, and I would greatly appreciate your feedback. All right,
I'll be working on some things as I'm sure you
will be as well behind the scenes, as we're always
trying to grow and get better and do more and
reach higher heights. That's just the name of the game
and this thing we call life, right, And so with that,
(44:44):
I hope that you keep yourself busy, but also find
some time for some fun, some enjoyment, some relaxation because
you deserve it. And until next season September that is
b Wells's. This podcast is produced by Mazemedia. Maze Media
(45:10):
as a woman led podcast production company that works with
small businesses and corporations. Visit mazemedia dot com for more
details on how you and your organization can go from
ideation to podcasting.
This is amazing media production. Hello, good people, and welcome
back to another episode of the Switch Pivotal Quip podcast.
I'm your host, Ayana Angel, and I hope that you
are ready for some transformation, for some insights into the
(00:21):
ways that you can transform. Because this podcast is all
about change, and today will be no exception. I'm bringing
in the big guns. Today we're going to be speaking
with Sabina nWise, who is a global CEO, coach, leadership expert,
and author of You're the Boss, Become the Manager You
Want to Be and Others Need, which reveals how to
(00:43):
harness pressure and manage power to achieve extraordinary leadership results.
We are absolutely going to be talking about managing pressure.
We're going to be talking about navigating your career. We're
going to be talking about how you can sift through
some of your day to day experiences to figure out
what might be your next best move for you. So,
(01:05):
during Sabina's fourteen year tenure at Microsoft, she rose for
managing software development teams to leading to the company's executive
development and succession planning efforts for over eleven thousand managers
and executives. Sabina is a faculty member at Northwestern and
Drexel Universities, and her insights have been featured in multiple publications,
(01:28):
including The Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes,
and many more. Her articles have reached more than seven
point five million people. Seven point five Yeah, she's that good.
People want to know what she has to say, and
for good reason. Sabina is a force. Hear me when
(01:49):
I say that I enjoyed this conversation so much. I
was leaning in. I was hanging on her every word,
and I'm sure you will be too. Her store, telling
her anecdotes, her insights, all of it. Get ready for it,
because it's coming your way right now. Your career took
you from managing software teams to overseeing executive development for
(02:14):
thousands at Microsoft. If you were to think back, what
were some of the pivotal moments that you would call
out in your journey.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
The first pivotal moment Diana was deciding to take the
job at Microsoft. I was an immigrant from India and
had sent out one hundred and eighty different job applications
all over the country. Microsoft was one of the first
ones to call me at that point. They were a
small company. I had never heard of them. Never been
(02:42):
to Seattle, and I thought, Hey, they're going to fly
me over for free. This is a free sightseeing trip
to Seattle. Why not. I had no idea that I
would want to work there. I just did it on
a lark. But it was picking up on the energy
in the hallways. By my third interview, I was in love.
I was like, oh my gosh, I really want.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
To work here.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And they were the first ones to offer me a job.
So for me, it was really picking up on the
vibe in the hallways, picking up on the way people
interacted and the kinds of people I met with who
seemed like folks where I could do my best work
with them. So I didn't wait around for other offers,
sit and analyze. I just went with it, and I'm
(03:25):
so glad I did. So that was a big decision point. Obviously,
I went to school on the East Coast and then
moving three thousand miles away. Perhaps the biggest pivotal point
in my career, though, was when I switched from software
engineering to human engineering and organizational engineering. Microsoft offered offers
(03:45):
a sabbatical in eight weeks sabbatical if you meet certain criteria.
In about nine plus years into my career. I was
on the sabbatical. Now, my typical m o ayana is
go go, go, go, go, and pack everything too hundred percent.
So this was probably the first time in my life
where I did not do that. I had three weeks
(04:06):
of travel, started a nonprofit theater company, and then for
the rest of the time I didn't have much to do.
I was sitting on the couch eating proverbial bonbonds. And
I would recommend this for anybody going through a transition.
Is this idea that I talk about in my book,
(04:27):
You're the boss of blank space, which is unplugged from everything,
and just sit and think, sit and be. And of
course what happens when you sit and be is suddenly
you get these flashes of insight. For me, the flash
of insight was it was no longer a matter of if,
but when I would become a corporate vice president at
(04:47):
Microsoft and as a woman in a high tech sector,
that had definitely been one of my career goals. But
something really strange happened. So I get this flash of insight,
and then I go, if I already know the formula
of how to get there, it seems like I'd be
wasting my life for the next five years trying to
(05:07):
get there. Where's the challenge in that, where's the joy
in that? Where's the discovery and novelty in that? And
that was one of the most anticlimactic moments of my life.
I went, shoot, what do I do with myself? So
I think the second piece to think about when you're
in those pivotal moments, like many of your listeners are,
(05:27):
is what are you really good at? What really lights
you up. One of the things that people had always
told me was you're good with people, You're a good boss,
And so I thought, why don't I go see if
there's something where I can help other people become great bosses?
And that's how I shifted my career from software engineering
to working on people engineering.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
If you want, so many great things that you pointed out,
and I think the first one that I want to
call out is this blank space. I think is what
you call it? Yes, and this quiet time. Many of
us are afraid of that quiet time.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Terrified?
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, yeah, Why do you think we're terrified of that
quiet time? And what does that quiet time really look like?
Because I can easily see someone hearing you say that
and think that that quiet time means everything, but what
it actually means.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yes, And you know, I was one of those people.
I was even afraid to go to a restaurant by myself.
And you know, this was before cell phones were there
where you can hide behind your cell phone, and I'm like, yeah, okay,
I'm going to bring along a book so I can read.
And it's just I don't know why we're afraid of it.
Perhaps we forget that we are human beings and not
(06:40):
human doings. I also think that one of the reasons
we might be afraid of it is that would bring
us face to face with our fears. And you know,
I don't think we just fear filing our taxes or
a visit from our in laws. I think we fear
our dreams of dreaming big and playing big, because what
(07:01):
if we put ourselves out there saying I'm going to
play big and then we don't succeed. Yeah, And for
years I was terrified of that. I would just pick
my head up a little bit over the surface and
then go right back hiding behind busy playing small. So
I think it's actually quite intimidating for people to step
into playing big. Yeah. Well, I was thinking of quote
(07:23):
by a writer and spiritual teacher Mary and Williamson, where
she says that our deepest fears are not that we're inadequate,
but that we're powerful beyond measure, and that are playing
small doesn't serve the world. But it's one thing to
say it, it's another thing to do it. You had
also asked about, then, how do we do this? What
does this look like? In the world of work? When
(07:45):
I work with the executive side coach, I work with
them to schedule two hours a week, back to back,
two hours a week where they so you're not in
your office number one, you're not online super important, you're
not reading, you're not talking to anybody, You're just by yourself.
(08:05):
This can look different for different people. In its purest form,
you're spending two hours by yourself, doing absolutely nothing and
seeing what happens. Now, that is just way too much
for most people to start out with. So you could
start with a more modest way of doing this. Okay,
start with fifteen minutes, hex start with one minute. If
you cannot tolerate that silence and not doing anything, now,
(08:29):
you could go for a walk. One person I work with,
Lizan A. Hammock, someone else wants to sample all the
pie shops in their city. So every blank space date,
they go to a new pie shop, order two pies
for those two hours. I hope they run or exercise
after that too, but they sit there. You could bring
(08:50):
along a book and doodle. Somebody brings along a coloring
a sketchbook with the crayons, and they draw, because that's
how they get their juices flowing. But also from a
work perspective, another person I work with keeps a running
list and in sticky notes and scribbled notes and whatever.
And then she just brings all of those things from
(09:11):
her running list to her blank space. And something phenomenal happened.
As she started looking at all of those notes, she
realized it wasn't any one of those things. When she
looked at them together, the big picture made her realize
how they're missing a massive opportunity in their business. She
wrote a memo, got a double level promotion, and got
(09:32):
put in charge of that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
But she wouldn't have been able to do that if
she had just been focusing on the sticky in front
of her nose. It took stepping back and looking at
all of those and making them fly information.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
And also giving herself that time to step back from
seemingly the work and being busy doing the work, to
really give her brain the space to think about things,
maybe even in an abstract way, which costs her create
those sticky notes.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I love that exactly. You get more creative. And you know,
some people say, well, I'm just not the creative type.
I'm like, I think there's a creativity in all of us.
Five year old says I'm not the creative type. We
just don't allow that to come out.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Another thing that you called out in thinking about your
pivotal moments was this I guess aha moment that you
had the solution of how to get to where you
thought you wanted to be right, but that felt a
little lackluster at that point. Why do you think that was,
And like, how did you reconcile with that? Because so
many people spend so many years trying to get to
(10:37):
a certain point and maybe don't even know how to
get there right, But here you are seemingly having the
answers and knowing how to get there. Didn't take some
of the fun out of it? Is that what made
it no longer attractive to you?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
For me, I realized it wasn't about the title, and
it wasn't about proving this to the world. It was
simply proving it to myself. Can I get there? And
when I knew the answer inside me with absolute conviction
that yes I can, I don't need to do more
of that. That's one piece. But what I underneath that,
(11:13):
what I also realize aana is what really excites me,
what gives me joy. And it's not the title. It's
not becoming something. It's being in the moment and working
on novel things, working to continue to learn and grow
and push myself. And if I'm just following a formula
that's not novel to me. Now I am not alone.
(11:34):
This is something I discovered quite by accident with my clients.
I noticed that I've worked with super senior executives, and
I noticed that many of them were coming to me saying, Okay,
so all my career, I've been chasing this. I've been
trying to get there. I've been managed larger teams, get
paid better, bigger and bigger jobs, and now I've got
(11:57):
it all. I've got it all, But what I don't
have is a sense of fulfillment, a sense of joy,
I'm not sure what's going on, and it got me
really curious, you know, and being an engineer by training,
I'm like, okay, let's reverse engineer this, let's debug this.
What's going on here? Why is that?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Ooh? I know is getting good. But we'll be right
back after we hear from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So I created a tool called the Joy Line, which
is in You're the Boss in my book, and it's
simply a line, a vertical line that is chronological with
your life. Now, on one side of that line, list
out about ten events from your life that have given
you great amounts of joy. And on the other side
(12:54):
of the line, list out about ten events in your
life that have sucked the joy out of you. And
when you do that, you start to recognize what you're
truly after. How do you get back to passion purpose
when you feel untethered, when you've lost that plot of
your entire life. So it's a tactical, tangible way from
(13:19):
your own experience. You don't need to go to therapy,
you don't need to work with a coach, you don't
need to do any of those things. Just from your
own experience, capturing that will help you arrive at it.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Wow. I love that sometimes we overlook what brings us
joy because we're so quick to be onto the next,
onto the next, onto the next. So it sounds like
a very useful exercise for sure. And speaking about your book,
You're the Boss. In the book, you discuss how pressure
can corrupt actions and power can blind us. Can you
(13:54):
share an example from your own career where you recognize
this to be true?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Absolutely? Absolutely, And that is one of the stories I share,
which is when I was running management development executive development,
and the day I was coming back from parental leave.
So here I am putting on lipstick for the first
time in five months, and my assistant Lori calls me.
She's got like a slightly frantic edge to her voice,
(14:20):
going where are you? Steve expects you in thirty minutes.
So I'm hitting warp speed on my way to work.
This is the first day after parental leave, mind you,
and I'm asking Lori to read the memo that I
need to know because this Steve happens to be Steve Bomber,
the CEO of Microsoft, and that sets the pace and
(14:41):
tone for my return to work. Overflowing in box, jam
packed calendar meeting with senior executives and an infant at home,
So no sleep, no peace, no patience, and I'm morph
from being the best boss ever, which is the feedback
I've gotten caring, compassionate, and nurturing to short and snippy.
(15:02):
I start micromanaging because I'm worried that we will look
incompetent to senior executives. Whenever somebody comes to my office,
I've got all my hands on the keyboard, looking over
my shoulder, going yes, you know, signaling you're less important
than me. I'm very busy. And here's the bad part
of this. Amids all this pressure. I thought I was
(15:25):
managing this pressure really well. I thought I was being efficient.
And then my colleague Joe comes to my office and
I'm there, you know, looking over my shoulder, Yes, Joe, right.
And I took one look at his face and I know, oh,
something is going on. So I turned my full attention
(15:46):
and he says, do you know that Zach is crying
in his office because of something you said? And my
whole body turns hot with shame. Yeah, And I think,
how did I go from being caring and nurturing to this?
To people are afraid of and clearly don't like. I
go to Zach's office, I apologize, and I I start
(16:09):
brimming with tears. And that's when I realize, Aana, that
this is what I want to treat people as human beings.
But what had happened. Pressure hadn't just squeezed my time.
It had queezed out my humanity. And I'm barking out orders,
I'm micromanaging. I'm going, oh, there'll be time for empathy
(16:30):
later on. They're big boys and girls, right, So that's
how pressure corrupted my actions. And then power comes in.
So pressure is this silent corrupt, and power is this
great divider, especially for a boss who's acting out. Who's
going to go tell them boss, you're acting like a
jerky so instead nobody right, Instead, people are going, oh,
(16:51):
you're great, yep, that's fine, whereas they're starting a secret
group chat in the meantime about my management practices.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Power just keeps you insulated, isolated from the effect that
you're having on other people when you're not managing your pressure.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, wow, I love that story. That's so real. It's
I feel like it's very relatable, and it's also like
really big of you to have shared that in your
book and to continue sharing it because those are the
moments that I think a lot of other people would
run from, especially if they don't choose to do anything
about it. And so you're in this moment Zach is
(17:34):
crying or at least watery eyed, feeling some emotion, and
you know you're the cause of it. What are the
next steps that you take? Like? How do things change
for you from there?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yes? And for me and the people I work with,
it's first recognizing recognizing that you're at play here. It's
not Zach, it's you. Yeah, Because a lot of people
will tell me, oh, oh, well, if they had done
things faster, if they've done things better, I'm like, yeah,
not buying that. What is it that's within your control?
How you're coming across and you have a megaphone. Just
(18:11):
like their feedback to you is muted, your feedback to
them is amplified. It's a two way volume switch that
works in opposite directions, right, So everything you're saying is
going to be a lot more severe, lot more taken
personally for them when there is this power gap, this
power differential. So first step is of course recognizing the
(18:31):
part you play the second is how do you manage
your pressures? How do you manage your pressure so you're
not coming across in ways that have a negative effect.
It has a negative effect on the person. It's not
just Zach is crying. Zach is also not doing any
work right. It's a distraction at best. I mean, research
(18:52):
actually shows that when bosses treat employees poorly, employees deliberately
sabotage their work. I believe right, They want to. They
screw over their own results just to get back at
the boss. Revenge sabotage, right. So it's vitally important to
do something about this because you know, here's the good news.
(19:14):
Pressure can also be great. That's what diamonds are formed under.
That's where we get scrappy and creative and innovative. So
how do you manage those pressures. One way to manage
it is blank space, because when we feel pressure, do nothing.
Take that time to step back, because when you step back,
you realize all those little things, all those sticky notes
(19:35):
that I was telling you about, don't matter. Here's the
big picture that matters. This is where I need to
focus on. Gives your brain a rest, It makes you
realize the answers are inside you. You just needed some
quiet for those voices to be heard. So in many ways,
just doing nothing when you're under pressure is a way
to manage it.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I like that. Yeah, I want to talk about the
respect of women within this POV a little bit. So
you talk about becoming the boss that you want to be,
right and that others need. How can women stay authentic
to themselves and what they know to be true about
(20:18):
themselves as leaders, but also still meet the needs of
the team in the business.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yes, yes, well two things. First of all, authenticity is
not singular. It should not exist in a singular form.
Because how I'm showing up with you, am I putting
on a show?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
An act?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Am I completely different from who I am? I hope not. Yeah,
there is an authentic version of me that's showing up
in this role as a podcast guest and an author.
If I show up this way talking to my kids,
they're going to go, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Right?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Is that not authentic? Of course it's authentic. That's in
my role as mother, which might be slightly different, slightly
similar to my role as wife and partner to my husband, right,
which is very different from how I might show up
with my girlfriends, which would be very different from how
I show up on a big keynote stage when I'm
(21:15):
talking to five ten thousand people. So which one is authentic? Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
All of them?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And as women, it's important to recognize that you play
many different roles, sometimes too many roles perhaps, and when
we play those roles, what's most important from our values perspective.
I think a lot of times when we talk about authenticity,
we talk about our values. So from a values perspective,
(21:44):
what's most important to me to uphold in this relationship
and what's expected in this role that I deliver while
keeping the thing that's most important to me in this relationship.
For example, right here in this moment with you, im,
what's important for me is being connected with the podcast host,
(22:05):
So making a connection with them and understanding maybe not
as well as you, but the needs of the audience.
So I can speak with that in mind right now.
Within that, there's plenty of stuff I can do that
are just myself. So similarly, as a manager, when you're
managing other people, if you go, yeah, I've got to
(22:27):
be my authentic self and scream when they haven't done
something that's not going to get you what you want.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
You mentioned that we managed correctly, and we sort of
touched on this a bit ago. Pressure can be a
good thing. It can even create possibilities. How can women
distinguish between productive pressure that drives them to be more creative,
to grow, to manage better, But then there's the other
(22:55):
side that's that harmful pressure that can lead to them
being burnt out, you know, feeling too much stress. Like,
how can women manage or navigate the sides of that
so that they can maybe welcome pressure but also navigate
pressure in a way that doesn't take too much out of.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Them by focusing on the right things. Okay, here's what
I mean by that. Ask yourselves a few questions. One,
are you the only one who's always bringing up ideas? Two?
Do people ever debate your ideas or they just go
yes because they're perfectly happy for you to bring up
the idea and do the work. Are you the one
(23:37):
who's working harder than everybody else? True for me as
a woman when I first started my career. Are you
justifying all of your actions with a yeah? But yeah,
but it's a particularly busy time of year. Now, challenge you,
when is it not a particularly busy time of year.
Can you tell me that? Not really right? So ask
(23:57):
yourself these questions to diagnose. Are you the one who
has fallen into what I call the sole provider trap?
That is, I'm the only person who can do all
these things. There's a client of mine who one of
the things she was working with me on is creating
more spaciousness, being able to have time to be more strategic.
(24:19):
She was incredibly hard working, had four kids, worked after
dinner and then said, and then, you know, I'm done
with work by about ten eleven, but then I'm up
until midnight, and then it starts again at five in
the morning. And I said, who whoa wa wait a minute,
So what is it that you're doing between ten thirty
and midnight. Well, I got to load the dishwasher. I
(24:41):
got to clean the kitchen table. And I said, okay,
let's stop right there. You've got four kids who are
old enough to be able to load the dishwasher. So
help me understand. Why is it that you're loading the dishwasher.
She said, Well, it's not that they're not willing, but
they put the forks tye side down, and that's just wrong,
(25:03):
you know, so I have because either they do it
and then I have to redo it. Heck, it's much
easier for me to just do it. That would be
an example of doing the wrong work.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Mm hmmm, mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
And as we managed to get her to loosen her
grasp and being the sole provider of loading the dishwasher,
guess what. The first couple of days, things didn't even
get loaded, let aloneloaded wrong and they had to eat
off of paper plates. And then the paper plates ran out,
and she wasn't going to go buy more. And suddenly,
you know what, her husband, her kids all stepped up
(25:35):
and they started loading the dishwasher and nothing happened to
the forks. Right, whether they were loaded down or up.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
It was okay.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
And she got some space and some time to sleep
and therefore manage pressure in a more healthy fashion. Yeah right,
So check when you have those soul provider tendencies, and
how might you loosen your grasp.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
That soul provider tendencies. I love that. I feel like
that's a cousin to controlling tendencies.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, you know, I mean, soul
provider is so common that I have four archetype soul providers.
One is the caretaker. I'll just take care of my team.
And this one, by the way, women tend to fall
into quite a bit. There's the flash I can do
it a lot faster, so I'll just do it in
a flash. But of course then you're doing it every
(26:32):
single time. There's the straight a student that has to
be an M dash not an N dash, and you're
the CEO of a company and you're sitting and working
on that. So there's all these different flavors of soul provider.
Oh and then there's the whack a mole champ. This
is the person who puts the thing on their to
(26:53):
do list even though it's done, just so that they
can cross it off, right. And by the way, I'm
guilty of many of these.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
So yes, yes, I think we all are. And that's
one thing I would challenge those of you listening to
do is think about what Sabina just said in assess
which one could I be playing a role with and
not even really realizing it. That's a good way to
sort of self assess, because a lot of this is
being self aware. When we're self aware, then we can
(27:22):
take action to do things differently. If that is what
it needed.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
And those questions will help you. I have a set
of forty two questions at the back of the book
to raise your own awareness. Because again, remember, if you're
in a position of power, and that doesn't have to
be formal corporate power, you could be a parent, you
could be somebody with more knowledge and information. When you're
in that position, no one's going to tell you this.
(27:48):
So these questions can help you be your own detective
and sleuth out where do you fall most prey to
where do you get sucked in the most into that
pressure of our text.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I know you're locked insight and souking of all this goodness,
but hold on for me just one minute or maybe
two while we hear from our sponsors. Speaking of our listeners,
many are contemplating career transitions. Are there any patterns, maybe
that you've observed regarding successful transitions versus those that led
(28:26):
people to be regretful about their decisions?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, the first thing to think about is what do
you want to do in that new job? Is it
are you doing it as a rebound. It's easy to
take what you've been successful at and just replicate that
somewhere else, but is that still something that feeds you,
just like it didn't feed me. Sometimes we're good at something,
but that's not what we want to do anymore. For example,
(28:52):
I was very good at managing large scale, complex projects
and taking twenty different stakeholders who all have very strong
opinions about the thing, and getting it all integrated and
moving in the same direction. I was really good at that.
I hated doing it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
How long did it take you to figure out you
hated doing it?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Gosh, like I would say, like four years, five years,
something like that. But here's the thing. When you do
that well and you're in a transition, somebody else is
going to go, oh, you did that, we need that,
and it's easy for them and you to slot yourselves
into a comfort zone. And so I had to deliberately
go to my boss and say, this project is going
(29:37):
to sunset. You're going to put me on something else.
I do not want to be on this kind of thing.
Here's what I want to do instead. I want to
work with two or three people, not twenty different people,
and I want to design something. And his first response,
but you're so good at this, yes, and if you
give me a chance, I'll also be really good at
this other thing, this is what I really want to do.
(30:00):
So understanding that just because you've done something over and
over again, that's where people are going to want to
put you. How do you take that and boil down
the strength of that and put it into the new
plot that you want to put yourself in so you're
not copyhold.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And it sounds like that takes time though, right, and
this is not something we should expect to be able
to do overnight. This may take some self assessment, like
we talked about, some self awareness. It may take you
maybe learning some new skills, but it's a it's a
process worth doing so that whatever it is you want
to transition from, you don't find yourself just doing it
(30:37):
because it's the easy way out and you're miserable.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Absolutely, think about it as a playground. Eighty percent ninety
percent of your time you're doing a fantastic job at
what you're doing, but ten percent of the time you're
always on a playground. Transition isn't a uppercase t Oh,
now I'm going to transition, and I've got to do
that in the next four to six weeks. It is
your constantly thinking about where else should I experiment what
(31:02):
else should I play around with. Maybe you take a
poetry writing class, maybe you take a project management class,
whatever it is, see what those things really are while
you have the luxury of that time, of that playground space,
so that when it comes to transition, you have a
clearer sense of what you like and what you don't like.
You can also take those things and map those onto
(31:22):
the joyline we talked about, So now you have a
sense of thematically, what's common to the things that are
giving me hyjoin.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
I want to transition into feeling isolated in a leadership role.
I can easily see how women, especially in male dominated spaces,
and with that pressure and their leader, how you can
feel very isolated. Are there any tools that you recommend
for women being able to build like a supportive network
(31:53):
or system around them when they are in high profile
leadership roles or maybe even in mid level leadership roles
but still feeling that pressure.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
What a great question. I read research ones and I'm sorry,
I'm not going to be able to quote the source
at this point that women and people of color don't
receive as much feedback, so perhaps it's scarier in our
world to provide that feedback. But it gets in the
way of us than knowing what are some blockers, you
simply don't get invited to that customer meeting or whatever
(32:27):
it is. Right people are talking about it, thinking about it,
but behind your back. So one thing to do to
reduce some of that isolation is to engineer the kinds
of questions you ask for feedback that won't allow people
to wiggle away. The quality of feedback we receive is
directly proportional to the quality of the questions we craft
(32:49):
to seek that feedback. If you say, how did I do,
and especially when you're in a position of power, people
are going to go you did great? How did I do?
Is simply looking for a pad on the back and reassurance.
If you want reassurance, go ahead and keep asking that question.
If you want feedback, it's a waste of your time.
In fact, it's more damaging because you'll think you're doing
(33:10):
great when there are some fatal flaws potentially in how
you're showing up. So there are two things that are
vital to engineering a great feedback question. One, keep it
specific and simple. If you just said, hey, what did
I do well? And what did I not do well?
That's still better than how did I do? But it's
a very big question, and again, when you have that
(33:33):
power gap, it's hard, it's intimidating for people to give
you that kind of feedback. Instead, if you said, what's
one thing that I did really well? One thing, not fifteen,
not a general as, what's one thing that if I
did more of or less of, would have made this
go even better? Not what did I do poorly? Just
(33:55):
you want to be mindful and how you shape that
question so they are more comfortable sending you that. Now,
when they give you the feedback, your only response is
two words, thank you, because how you respond, especially in
a position of power, will determine how safe they feel
giving you that feedback. One of the trick that I've
used when I interview people to get feedback on their
(34:18):
bosses is use a third person question, that is, what
would my fans have said in that room? And what
would my critics have said in that room. That way,
the person giving you feedback does not have to take say, well,
let me be critical or I didn't like this. Well,
I loved everything you said, boss, But boy, if I
(34:40):
were to channel your crustiers critic, here's what they would say.
So that's another way to give people some space, some grace,
to provide you with honest feedback.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Because you've worked with so many different people, so many
different leaders, in different countries, in spaces, in different types
of organizations. Are there any common threads that you notice
to be let's say, issues that you would want to
pull out and say, we should really be more aware
(35:12):
of this as we're operating in these professional spaces.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah. Absolutely. The backbone of this book is twelve thousand
pages of barbatim feedback that people gave about their bosses,
what they think about their bosses, the good, the bad,
and the ugly. So from that I collected the common themes,
and the entire book is all the common things. The
top two things that people give us corrective feedback to
their bosses. One, this person has a hard impact on
(35:39):
me and other people. This is where that corrupted pressure
behavior shows up and they're not treating people well. I
was just this morning talking with somebody who got a
dressing down from someone two levels above him, and he said,
you know, she has many strengths, but being a human
is not one of them. Ouchy, right now, she was
(36:02):
the reason she gave the dressing down without taking, of course,
any accountability on herself. Was the pressure she had gotten
from the CEO of the company two levels above her,
and what a journalist had said about something that hit
a nerve. So she was under pressure, and what that
caused her to do is start yelling and dressing down
(36:23):
this one person in front of dozens of people, which
of course is not going to get.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Her what she wants. Yea.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So it's that it's really understanding those forces.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
What does success mean or look like to you? Or
for you?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Wow? Okay, two different questions that I'll start with. The
second one. For me, success looks like if this were
my last on earth, saying that I spent it wisely,
and again that goes back to not getting the title
and all these external trappings of success. For me, it's
(37:00):
if I have a reckoning and my time is up,
my timer runs out today, did I spend my time
the way I would have wanted to spend it? You know,
ten days ago, we were returning from a vacation in
a cab at three in the morning, three in the
morning because the flight had already been delayed by five hours,
and out of the blue, a drunk driver runs a
(37:23):
red light and t bones the cab right, and we
were very fortunate that we actually managed to walk out
of that, because a lot of people don't survive tea
boned accidents. We actually walked eight blocks to our home
with our suitcases. And I thought about that. You know,
Initially I was like, Oh my gosh, this is terrible.
And then the next day I woke up just filled
(37:45):
with gratitude that we could walk out of it, that
we were alive, that we have some minor issues, but
nothing in the grand scheme of things. And I reflected,
I said, what did I do that day if that
had been my last day? And I felt a deep
sense of fulfillment and satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I had spent it with the people I wanted to
spend it with. We had had a lovely time on
a tropical beach. We'd eaten good food, we'd sung some
great songs. Yeah, that sense of fulfillment as your last
day to mean that is success is doing what feels
right to you every single day of your life.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Final question, what is the most transformative piece of feedback
that you've personally received in your career?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Wow? You have brilliant questions, Anna, Oh, thank you. You
are so good at that. Yes, the piece of feedback,
and this applies to many women, so I will share
this one. I was painfully shy. Yeah, you're raising your
eyebrows like people do not believe that they're like you're
lying that could No, no, no, you weren't. How shy
(38:57):
were you really? Because I am so out there and
I am actually an extrovert. I'm a raging extrovert and
very outspoken and so on. But that's not how I
started my career. I was painfully shy, and in meetings
I wouldn't say a word, not a word. And one
of my bosses pulled me aside and said, if you
(39:18):
don't speak in meetings, no one knows what value you add.
Meetings are where careers are made and broken. And look
at this other woman who you really admire. Do you
think she got where she got by being quiet? So
he really gave me this cattle prod wake up call
of oh, I need to learn how to speak now.
(39:41):
For someone who never speaks in meetings, it's hard to
then speak like you and I are speaking right now.
So what are some baby steps? You might think? Okay,
have a strategy for when you're going to speak in
the meeting. Maybe you're the first one to speak, so
that if you have a hard time getting your voice
in hy when everybody else is starting in the cacophony,
(40:03):
be the first one to speak. You know, it's great
to see you all. I'm still thinking about what so
and so said from the last meeting. I really want
to make sure we discussed that today, looking forward to
what we're going to unfold here. Or maybe you speak
at the halfway mark. You take all the cacophony and
don't add your voice to that, but say something like,
(40:27):
can we pause for a moment. I'm hearing three different
directions that we've been going for the first half hour
of this meeting. Direction A, direction B, direction C. What's
common to all of them is X. I think we
really need to focus on X. That is a bold
boss move, a leadership move that then you're not just
(40:49):
another voice that's lost in the noise. You're adding value
by elevating the discussion, getting everyone out from the weeds
to what's really most important, and then pivoting the rest
of the discussion there.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Ooh, I love these so good, so good, Well, Sabina,
this has been such a rich conversation. Thank you so
much for bringing all of your wonderful energy to our listeners.
And as we wrap up, are there any final thoughts
that you have? You shared so much with us already,
but is there anything that we didn't touch on that
(41:24):
you're like, Oh, I really wanted to say this, or
this is something that I've been thinking and I really
wanted to share it.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Well, again, thinking about your audience, I would say, we've
talked about feedback, we've talked about being mindful of your
impact on other people, but go back to yourself as well,
and don't get overly shaken, don't get overly influenced by
what others are saying. If you can simply show up
to every interaction knowing that you are enough, Yeah, you
(41:54):
are enough, you will show up differently, trust that and
then allow things to unf.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I love that. I love that. Sabina, thank you so
much for joining us on the Switch, Pivot or Quit podcast.
It has truly been a pleasure and we look forward
to our next chat with you too.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Ooh, I'm looking forward to that. Dabella Yanna, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Having me of course, and all of you listening. I
hope that you are able to take notes. Maybe you
were in a position to take notes because Sabina gave
us so much good information to work with. I hope
that you're able to use it and soar and continue
to fly in your careers, in your everyday lives and
everything that you do. Before we close out this episode,
I want to take a moment for a little housekeeping,
(42:35):
so in an effort to preserve my energy and creativity
and keep the goodness and the content coming for you guys,
I've decided that I'm going to start producing seasons instead
of an always on podcasts. What does that mean? This
will be the last episode in this season. This is
technically season seven behind the scenes, that's what I'm calling it.
(42:59):
You don't need to concern yourself with that. But the
new season will start in September. So right now, we're
just gonna take a little summer break. And that doesn't
mean that you won't hear from me at all. I
will probably be uploading a few little sprinkles here and
there on the feed just to kind of touch base.
(43:19):
But new episodes, full episodes will be back in September.
And if you are looking for me and want to
hang out with me, still In the meantime, you can
always catch me on Instagram or you can also catch
me on YouTube. I've been producing the video version of
all of these episodes in this season, if you did
(43:39):
not know, and also releasing clips and all that good stuff.
So if you haven't already checked that stuff out, make
sure you go and check it out. And one last
thing I want to ask of you before we part
for the summer. If you are enjoying the Switch Credit
or Quid podcast and you haven't already done so, please
if you listen on Apple, feel free to head over
(44:02):
there and give us a review. Let me know what
you think of the show, let me know what you
think of the guests, let me know if there's anything
that you want to specifically hear from the show. And
if you've already left an Apple review, head over to
YouTube check out some of the videos, let me know
what you think of them. Let me know what you'd
(44:22):
like to see and hear from the podcast, as I
always listen, and I would greatly appreciate your feedback. All right,
I'll be working on some things as I'm sure you
will be as well behind the scenes, as we're always
trying to grow and get better and do more and
reach higher heights. That's just the name of the game
and this thing we call life, right, And so with that,
(44:44):
I hope that you keep yourself busy, but also find
some time for some fun, some enjoyment, some relaxation because
you deserve it. And until next season September that is
b Wells's. This podcast is produced by Mazemedia. Maze Media
(45:10):
as a woman led podcast production company that works with
small businesses and corporations. Visit mazemedia dot com for more
details on how you and your organization can go from
ideation to podcasting.
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