Talk Heathen 09.27 with Christy Powell and Sofia Spina

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Talk he Ethan, the show where we take
your calls and explore belief with curiosity and courage. I'm
Christy Powell, and today I want to begin with something
that's been weighing heavy on my mind, not just as
a former believer, not just as a therapist, and not
just as a Texan, but as a citizen of this
complicated country we call home. It's no secret that American

(00:21):
identity and Christianity have long been tangled together, like roots
in dry soil. You can't really dig into one without
pulling up clumps of the other. This nation was founded,
at least in part on religious idealism, but let's be honest,
it was also founded on stolen land, on the backs
of enslaved people, and with a version of Christian faith

(00:43):
that comforted the powerful while quieting the oppressed. And those
histories aren't parallel, they're intertwined. We've all heard the phrase
Christian nation tossed out like a compliment, like a badge
of honor, But what does that really mean? What kind
of Christianity are we talking about? The gentle, justice driven
Jesus of the Sermon of the mount or the more

(01:04):
militarized flag draped messiah of Fox News and political rallies.
Because the Christianity that so often gets wrapped in red,
white and blue isn't about loving your neighbor. It's about
controlling them. It's about enforcing hierarchy, patriarchal, racial, economic through
spiritual authority. It tells us that God anointed this nation,

(01:27):
that white forefathers were divinely guided, and that any challenge
to this story is rebellion against the sacred. That idea
is not just nationalism. That is white Christian nationalism, a
belief system that says America belongs to white Christians and
must be ruled accordingly. And it's not fringe. It shows

(01:48):
up in our laws, in our school boards, and our courtrooms.
It showed up in the chants and crosses carried on
January sixth, and it shows up every time someone says
real Americans while quietly meaning straight white conservative Christians. Whatever
my issues with Christianity, I am not here to bash Christians.

(02:09):
I know there are people of faith doing the hard
work of justice and compassion. But if we're going to
have honest conversations on this show and challenge ideas that
hurt people, we need to call this what it is,
a toxic supremacist ideology hiding behind rhinestone crosses and cross
stitch scripture. This isn't just a theological disagreement. It's a

(02:31):
human rights issue. When religion is used to justify control,
to silence descent, to erase queer lives, to marginalize immigrants,
or to elevate one race and one worldview above all others,
that's not faith. It's oppression. And if your God needs
nationalism and racism to stay in power, maybe it's time

(02:52):
to rethink who or what you are really worshiping. So
let's talk about it. If you've seen this fusion of
faith and power up close, I want to hear your story.
If you're trying to untangle your own beliefs from the
myths you're raised on, let's do that together, because turns
out the truth actually matters, and so do you. So

(03:14):
give us a call because the show is coming right now. Okay, well,
welcome everybody. Today is July sixth, twenty twenty five. I'm
your host, Christy Powell, and with me today is Sophia Spina.
I want to start by saying that we are already

(03:35):
sending love rings to those affected by massive flooding here
in the Austin area. Fifty nine confirmed dead and twenty
seven girls from Camp Mystic still unaccounted for at last check.
Our thoughts are certainly still with them. If you'd like
to be part of the solution, you can visit Bitley
Slash Austin Flood Fund to contribute to the five oh
one c three nonprofit Kerr County Flood Relief Fund set

(03:58):
up by the Community Foundation of the Texas Hill Country
and put your secular humanism to good work. Sophia, how
did y'all hold up during this recent weather?

Speaker 2 (04:06):
You know, we stayed home. We were under the orders
to say, like, don't travel anywhere unless you're leaving an
area of evacuation. We are quite close to a river
that did swallow a lot. We're up a hill, so
a lot of our friends and neighbors, you know, are
still in at least dicey situations. Yeah, it's just kind
of mind boggling to think about how suddenly this changed. Sure, yeah,

(04:29):
so it was. You know, for us, I'm extremely thankful
that we stayed home with our toddler and some meltdowns
on his part were the worst it really got. But
it's a very difficult storm.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, no, we fair to just find we were already
planning on kind of holding up for the weekend, not
feeling especially patriotic this year, and enjoying the extra time
at home. But it's definitely been very upsetting watching the news,
particularly the news coming out of this small summer camp.
And yeah, we're definitely sending out our lover rings. I
want to say again that that url is bit dot

(05:02):
lee slash Austin Flood Fund to contribute to the Kirk
County Flood Relief Fund. We really hope that you will
put your humanism into action and help us out.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
All right.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Well, with that, I'll remind everybody that this is Talk Heathen,
a production of the Atheist Community of Austin. We are
a five oh one C three nonprofit organization that is
dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,
and the separation of religion and government. We are a
live call in show and we have open lines, so
get your calls in at five one two nine nine

(05:34):
two four to two or from your computer at tiny
dot c c slash call t H Sophia. We're gonna
bring in Richard here in just a moment to do
our Question of the Week segment. But I'm curious to
know who are you excited to talk to today.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
I am excited to talk to people, particularly you know,
as you mentioned, it was fourth of July, it's a
patriotic holiday, which is complicated for a lot of people.
I myself, this might surprise folks, but I have always
described myself as a patriotic American, and I think a
lot of folks don't like that, or find that to
be strange to them, or don't like the fact that

(06:09):
I feel like I deserve to be here too. So
I want to talk with people who, you know, who
actually who maybe want to discuss that a little bit.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
But yeah, no, well we'll dive into it. I'll co
sign that as maybe a vaguely disaffected, middle aged patriotic American.
But I'm interested to hear your thoughts. I'm interested to
hear from the audience. And with that, let's get to
our Question of the Week segment and bring Richard in.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
It's time for our Question of the Week session. I've
just realized that I'm repping. I did not do this
on purpose.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
The merchants just in the rotation is part of daily life.
That's what we like to see.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah, completely by accident as well.

Speaker 4 (06:51):
I didn't even realize until I look down and saw
the Coteland and then thought, oh my, I'm wearing the
shirt as well. So it's sign for our toki a
new segments where we get into the questions of the week.
And last week we asked you Jesus last words wrong
answers only, and here are our top three answers. Number three,
no God required, Jesus last words, don't you know who?

Speaker 3 (07:14):
My dad?

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Is?

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Pretty standard one there, guys, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
My dad unless your dad is the devil, in which
case he won't bother.

Speaker 5 (07:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
I don't get it.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
Unless, yeah, your dad whispering into you in the desert.
That's a bit weird, isn't it Okay? Numbers number two
is Miranda Reinsburg Jesus last words, Hey, remember supper last
night when I was talking about the bread and wine,
got interrupted before I could tell you all about the yogurt.
Why are you stabbing me?

Speaker 1 (07:45):
It's really it's a one x play. I love it.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
And the number one is Chuck gad Or Jesus last
words were you're rotten? Kids? Bring back that shroud all
the way through the centuries, stole it and got it
into France in the eleventh century, and hid it all
that time in between. Can't believe it. So the problem

(08:12):
for this week of the week for next week is
wrong answers only Jesus blank for your sins and your
best answer below the video and the comments, and next
week we will reveal the top three answers. So Jesus,
you too, I'm going to go with Christy first. Wrong
answers only Jesus blank for your sins is.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
The obvious answer. But Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to
appease himself for your so called sins.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah standard, Yeah, Sophia.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, Well, I'm thinking about like a lot of the
modern online Christian content I was seeing lately. So my
brain says, Jesus TikTok for your sins.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
That is very appropriate. I've spent I've still spend a
lot of time over there, and wow, the TikTok crowd
is something else. Yeah, great answers from both of you,
and I want to see your answers. You who watched
the show, so in the comment section below the video.
I had great trouble saying that last week has just

(09:23):
slipped right off the tongue today. In the comment section
below the video, give us your answers. I'm going enjoy
the show. It's gonna be great. I will see you
all later, all right, Richard.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
We'll see you at the end of the show. For now,
let's go and pull up the crew camp so we
can thank everybody who helps us to put this show together,
who you know scrambled so quickly to give us access
to that relief fund and make sure that everything is
up and running despite the weather. Thank you guys so
much for all your hard work. All right, Sophia, you
ready to jump into our first call?

Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, do it.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Let's talk to Gohan here in Texas. Go in. What's
on your mind?

Speaker 6 (09:59):
Year? All right, how are you guys doing well?

Speaker 1 (10:02):
No, all right, under circumstances, what's on your mind?

Speaker 6 (10:04):
Well, I just want to say I forgot you guys
live in Austin, So I'm sorry for either you guys
or anyone you know who's going through So yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Very much aspreciate hanging we got for us today.

Speaker 6 (10:17):
Really, just I want to discuss abortion. Christy. I've called
I think twice before and spoke to you about this.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, no, I do remember a particularly bizarre hypothetical we
got into a while back about a hypothetical woman trapped
in a cabin with a police officer and a baby
that wasn't her own, and whether she should be obligated
to breastfeed that baby. We don't have to rehash all
that now, but I do remember speaking to you in
some of the interesting places that we got Yeah, you know,

(10:49):
but but no, what what did you want to ask today?
How should we frame all this?

Speaker 6 (10:53):
Well, first off, that's a great memory. I had to
do my homework cross. I actually rewatched the videos where
I spoke to you guys before, Otherwise I would not
have remembered it. But you got it like spot on.
It's a very job. But if I could just really
quick start, are you guys fans of dad jokes? It
does apply to abortion?

Speaker 3 (11:11):
That is a.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Cat if I've ever heard one.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
I mean, I'm happy to give it a go. You know,
I trust your discussions. I've never a discussed I've never
meat you before, but we'll go with it.

Speaker 6 (11:21):
No worries. This one definitely like is a kind of
a pro life joke, but here it is dad and
a son are having a conversation. The dad says, son,
did you know an acorn as a tree? The son
says really, The dad says in a nutshell yes.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, okay, fair enough. So is this an issue of personhood?
Of that question of like what is a fetus? What
is an embryo?

Speaker 6 (11:47):
Yeah, so that's definitely a question involving personhood. When I
have these discussions on abortion, I like to usually skip
personhood and just go state straight to Bobby any since
most pro abortion people would say, even if the fat
is a person, it still doesn't deserve extra rights, So

(12:09):
I usually just get personal and just goes straight to
Bob Yet.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Okay, yeah, so what's the point of contention here?

Speaker 7 (12:15):
Okay, So the thing I want to get into is
differences between organ donation, like forced organization, and difference between
that and abortion or organ donation.

Speaker 6 (12:32):
If I refuse to give my organ to some child,
even if it's my child who is like having a
heart attack or a bad liver or a bad uni,
if I refuse to give that to them, they don't
die because I refuse to give it to them. They
die because they have a bad kidney or a bad
liver or bad heart x y Z.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
But sure, And I don't want to be distracting or inflammatory,
but I think it's worth pointing out that you have
that right to refuse to donate your organs, even posthumously,
that even your corpse has the right to not donate
those organs those organs.

Speaker 6 (13:07):
I agree. And then so after that, for an abortion,
if I have an abortion, the I'm just going to
say fetus, because not all abortions are going to be like,
I mean, maybe you can do an embryo. I don't know,
but I'm just gonna say fetus for now. If you
kill the fetus in an abortion, that fetus dies directly

(13:29):
from the abortion. It doesn't die because I had a
bad heart, there was a direct act of killing, or
an organ donation. There is no direct act of killing.
I can't be held accountable for somebody else's death because
I didn't help them. An abortion, I can be held
accountable because I didn't just not help, I actively kill.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, it's a little bit of a question of did
you actually pull the lever on that trolley to send
it down that track. I get the agency part of
all of this. Does that change the calculus.

Speaker 6 (13:57):
For you not not entirely. It's like whether you pull
the lever or you hired somebody else to pull the lever.
So that I hit some bi people inside of three, like,
if you hired somebody else to do it, you're so
held culpable for it. If you're the lover, you you
still are held culpable. So in this example of the
mother is not pulling the lever, she's hiring somebody else

(14:19):
to kill her kid.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Okay, so a couple a couple of questions really, and
I find this a very interesting hypothetical, to be honest,
because I think that's a weirdly question of like how
many steps away from something can we be before we
are not as culpable for it, because I think that
I think oftentimes within the abortion conversation, there's a discussion

(14:43):
of well, you know, you chose to get pregnant or
engage in things that would that would cause a child,
and so I appreciate that you brought up even if
it was your own kid, like it's kind of a
different situation. So I'm curious because if we live in
a world where illegal organ markets exis right and it's
not something that you know, we maybe talk about a

(15:05):
ton in the US, but it is something that that
does happen. And so I'm wondering if you ended up
in a situation where you were physically you know, someone
is relying on your body to exist. This is a
pretty common analogy with abortion. So I'm just curious as
to what your answer is. You're tied to somebody else,
you will survive, probably, But if you were to say, no,

(15:27):
I'm actually not consenting to this operation. You know, I've
been kidnapped. I've been hooked up to this to this
other person to keep them alive, and you walked away,
that would be a direct action that caused the death
of the other person. So what is your take on
that one?

Speaker 6 (15:41):
Sure? And I don't know how much you guys want
me to get into this because I called him before
about the violinist, but I actually this.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Is the violinist, right, This is the vis just a
different formulation of it.

Speaker 6 (15:52):
Yeah, So if I refuse, like if I'm I'm just
gonna go to violin this wrap, if I'm tied to
the violinist, and I ready walk up and eventually the
dies because I didn't stay for the whole nine months,
because I have bottom on me, what do the.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Vie be twenty minutes, It doesn't matter I would.

Speaker 6 (16:10):
Be directly killing them, But it does because the violinists
would end up dying of I think it was kidney
failure or something. So there violiness isn't dying because I'm
not helping them. They're already dying.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Okay, but yeah, that's kind of what it, you know.
I think that, particularly when we're talking about abortion, you're
saying they're already dying, not necessarily. They're not necessarily dying.
If they get to use your body for the next
nine months, then they're not dying at all. Then they're
going to live where we're.

Speaker 6 (16:41):
Talking about the violinists now, not a fetus, right.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, because if we're thinking about you saying that they're
already dying because of their bad liver, no they're not.
They're using your body. They're not dying. They will be
dying if you choose to get up and leave.

Speaker 6 (16:55):
Like if if I'm removed from the situation, what would
they like on their death certificate? What would it say
they died of? Would it say they died of kidney
failure or whether they say they died because GOHAN didn't help.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I mean, it would probably say kidney failure. But what
does an abortion have, Like, what do they list there?
They don't list because mom didn't help, you know, So
what do they write there?

Speaker 6 (17:17):
As much as it's not because mom didn't help, it's
because they actively go in and poison the kid before
they take the kid out.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
So that is that what they write.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
I don't know that's of them. I mean, I'm sure
the result. It's not just that the result is the same.
It's actually that the mechanism is the same because the
underdeveloped lungs and like the entire system of the fetus
is not able to support itself, is going to be
reliant in that same way. That's why the metaphor the

(17:48):
thought experiment works in this way. So we really haven't
reinvented the I'm sorry, we didn't catch anything.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Sorry we didn't catch that. Could you repeat that?

Speaker 6 (17:59):
Yes? Could I ask a question that might help y'all's
argument a little bit?

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Sure?

Speaker 6 (18:03):
Okay, So I think a question that I've been asked is,
what if we could take the fetus out without killing it,
like not directly kill it and let it die? Is
that kind of something like you would be would that
be a question you would want to ask or no.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
I mean it gets to kind of your initial thrust,
which was around sort of the agency of cause of
death and whether or not we're responsible for directly pulling
the lever or equally culpable for not pulling levers and
that kind of thing. I don't know that. I don't know.
Maybe I'm being too literal and consequentialist about it, But
if the end result is the same I have, I'm

(18:41):
hard pressed to see that as like morally distinct.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
I think I would also ask at that point.

Speaker 6 (18:48):
Okay, I would say, if that is a route taken
where you just don't kill the fetus but extract it
from the mother, but it's still alive when it comes out,
and then you just let it die, I would say
that's the same. That's very similar to like taking to
not helping the violinist, because you didn't kill the violinists

(19:08):
and then you just let them die. So I would
say that's similar. The only difference is this is your child,
and until it can get help from somebody else to
take care of it, it requires you.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Okay, yeah, I think looking at this a couple of things. One,
it feels like a distinction about a difference. It feels
like it's an argument that can be made that these
are you know, at this point, we're splitting so many hairs.
We're living in a science fiction reality. When we're talking
about having you know, if we can keep the child

(19:41):
alive outside of the womb and then they can slowly
die that way or something like okay, like maybe that's
the thing we could do. It doesn't feel super relevant.
So when you brought up your child living without you,
being able to live without you, so let's I feel like,
let's bring it a little back to reality. You can
see my silly dog over there in the background. When

(20:04):
we live in the system that we live in, we
have very long organ donation lists. You know, it's your child.
You mentioned you need to take care of them till
they can live without you. Sort of the vibe here.
And so supposing you are the only person who can
give your child that organ because it's a very long
wait list, because you are the only match. The other
parent can't do it, and you know they're not going

(20:25):
to survive unless you do. Are you killing your child
if you choose not to, I would say no.

Speaker 6 (20:30):
And also, if you let the child die the feet
as sigh after you extract them, you're not killing them.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Also, Okay, then it just seems like life in general
doesn't matter in the scenario. It just seems like a
hypothetical shrug.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, I have to all created a moral framework with
this idea of removing the fetus and letting it die
of quote natural causes, where you are increasing suffering while
calling it somehow more moral than the original conceptualization. And
that just doesn't resonate for me.

Speaker 6 (21:02):
Sorry, I think I paused too long, so I wasn't
one hundred percent done. I'm saying that you wouldn't be
directly killing the child then, but as a parent, you
have a responsibility to your child until someone else can
take that responsibility, So you wouldn't be directly involved, you
wouldn't be the direct cause of their death, but you
would still you still have a duty to your child

(21:24):
to not put them in a like, in an environment
that they can't survive.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Well, we're kind of relating the argument a little bit
and going to this notion that you are obligated to
this violinist if that violinist is your genetic child, and
so all of these other notions of action sort of
shift because we are now making the claim that you
do have a moral obligation to your specific children, which

(21:51):
I don't you know, dismiss, but it is a different
way of conceiving of what we originally started on. Is
that fair?

Speaker 6 (21:58):
And can we make the violinists my child that's like
five years old? That way it con fits this situation
a little bit better. So in that case, if I
put the violinist or my child who is five environment
that like, let's say I stabbed their kidney or something,
So now they need me to be hooked up to

(22:18):
them for nine months to make sure they don't die.
If it's my child, I think that's appropriate because my
childerves protect question.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
So say you know you have a genetic illness that
will compromise your kidney. You have this child anyway, and
you are the only person who could potentially donate an organ.
I'm looking at this sort of also like throwing this
out there as we consider that we can't talk about
abortion in a vacuum, right. Abortion has legal consequences in
the world that we live in. So not only are

(22:49):
you morally responsible, because I would agree, like I'm a mom,
I have kids. I'm like, I think you'd be a
pretty crappy parent if you're like, nah, I just don't
want to get all those needles poked in me. Let
the kid die, right, That's terrible morally. Should I be
held criminally responsible for that? Because that's the world we
live in here in Texas?

Speaker 6 (23:04):
I think you should be held criminally responsible for any
kid that you directly kill, unless you're at high risk
of severe horn.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Okay, I think that a lot.

Speaker 6 (23:17):
If you have five year old kid who's running at
you with a knife and for some reason, you have
no other option other than lethal force of self defense,
you can only use lethal force of self defense if
there's a high enough risk of If you.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Choose to have children then knowing they are going to suffer,
knowing they're going to need organ transplants that they're unlikely
to be approved for, I think you can make a
pretty good argument that you have chosen to make that
child live and die a miserable life and suffer a
miserable death. You made those choices that led to that.
They would not have happened had you not made those choices.

(23:53):
Should we hold people who have children in spite of
knowing that they have genetic disorders that would cause these things,
which is a very real scenario. Should we hold them
criminally responsible for those choices?

Speaker 6 (24:04):
So can I reask your question and that's favorable to me?
Or is that too much?

Speaker 2 (24:11):
So long as we could like examine why we would
reframe it for sure?

Speaker 6 (24:15):
Sure, Okay, if you want, I'm just going to rephrase
it and then we can go back to the way
you ask it. But to me, it sounds like would
it be which one is better to like less criminal
offense to allow your kids to suffer or be the
direct cause of their death?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Wait? Are you asking me allowing your child to suffer?
So you're saying in this scenario, you are by choosing
to have this child, I would say, by creating that suffering?
Are we Are we still in that scenario where you
have chosen this eyes wide open? Or are we in
a scenario where your child is suffering and you choose
not to kill them?

Speaker 5 (24:50):
Like?

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Can can you specify for me.

Speaker 6 (24:54):
My child is suffering? It seems like they're going to
suffer for a week and then that's it and they're
going to die after that it is less of an
evil or less criminally bad that's not the right phrase.
But less for me bad or less of an evil.
So let your kids live and go through the suffering
and go through life. The said of killing them before

(25:15):
any of that happens, I agree.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
That's a totally different scenario though, Like I agree with
if they're gonna suffer for a week and die, like, okay,
But you're choosing to bring this life into the world
knowing it will suffer and knowing it will die prematurely,
knowing that it is required to have this particular organ
and you're doing it anyway. And then we add to
this question, what if you could save them with your organs?

(25:38):
What if you have them they have this genetic disorder,
you refuse to give them the liver, so they're going
to suffer and die. You made all the choices to
bring them into this world. You did everything you would
be doing in this abortion scenario, and then you're going
to let them die because you don't want to give
them your organ So you created the suffering too, and
you're choosing not to amend it. You're choosing to let

(25:59):
them die. Here should that person be criminally liable if
you get a genetic test and you know your children
will have this genetic disorder, and you do it anyway,
do we arrest you?

Speaker 6 (26:10):
I'm sorry, I miss this, did the question the first time.
I'm sorry about that, but yes, let me answer this
question directly. So, No, I don't think you should be
held criminally responsible for not for putting your child in
a situation like that where maybe you could help by
taking extraordinary measures by donating your kidney. But I don't

(26:32):
think any parents should be any parents should be criminally
charged for not taking extraordinary measures to help their kid.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
It's hard to feel then that you are. It's easy
to believe then that you don't believe that pregnancy is
an extraordinary measure.

Speaker 6 (26:46):
I mean, yeah, I wouldn't say that's I mean it's
extraordinary best part of every single kid, Like every kid
has had to go through pregnancy.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Well, every kid's parent has had to go through pregnancy.
I think that that's something that maybe we have to
point out because the kids that we see that have
gone through it, that are alive are the ones who
survived right. And while that is a majority, because we
live in a society that does have relatively advanced medical care,
not every mom makes it through. Not every pregnancy goes

(27:19):
to term. At this point, we are demonstrably arresting women
who wanted the pregnancy and did have a medical procedure
they had to have to continue living, maybe for their
other kids. Like I think that, yes, it's common, It
does not mean it is not a major medical procedure.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
It's common, and you know, I take Gohan's point that, yes,
every person living had some experience of pregnancy, you know,
on the receiving end of that benefit. But as you
point out to Fia, that's a gigantic sampling error and
one that we really need to be reckoning with here.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
So sorry, what did you say?

Speaker 6 (27:59):
Sorry, Christy, I've seen if Christy could expand on his
point that, like, oh.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Really, I was just sort of highlighting something Sophia it said,
which is that it's a gigantic sampling error to say
that all people who are currently alive experienced pregnancy on
like the receiving end, because, as Sophia pointed out, all
of the people who didn't get borned were people who did.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Not It's also kind of like like, let's compare it
to another thing that's common but also can be difficult.
So this feels like a big jump to make. But
at the same time, I'm going to do it because
I think it illustrates the point for YouTube gods. I
will say, CSA, is that something? You know what I'm
talking about here? Gohan? I yes, man, Okay, So a

(28:45):
lot CSA is actually extremely common. When in four girls,
when in six boys are going to experience some level
of CSA before they reach the age of eighteen. So
I think it's imperative that we do something about it.
I think it's important that we we talk about this
very seriously. It would be very easy to say, and
I have heard people say this with their own mouths.

(29:06):
So these are real people that talking about it only
makes it worse, and that really, like you know, everybody,
everybody who's there's so many people who do survive it.
It's side stepping the question of those who commit suicide.
I just might have upset the YouTube us are saying that,
but it's side stepping the questions of the massive impacts

(29:27):
it has on people's lives because it's stable to shrug
and say, well, a lot of people survive. I would
say that pregnancy and childbirth are very similar in that
they're common. There's things a lot of people go through.
And yet this is sort of ignoring the fact that
a lot of people don't make it, that it's one
of the most dangerous things that one can participate in,

(29:49):
even with the highest standards of medical care, and that
pregnancy loss and loss of children within the first year
of life is not only you know, not that uncommon,
but it is. It's it's horrifying, it affects you forever,
and so to just say, well, a lot of people
do it, it really is minimizing how impactful and epic

(30:10):
this really is.

Speaker 6 (30:12):
So if Alcorn respond to that, I would say, yes,
pregnancy is a dangerous measure, but my question would be
how dangerous can it get before you're allowed to use
lethal force and self defense?

Speaker 2 (30:26):
And in Texas, I mean the mom can die. Let's
say that's just we live in this state.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
That's the thing that really is where we've drawn a
lot of these legal lines, and that really does matter.
Like if we were to talk about sort of the
ethics of when or how should abortion ever be appropriate,
and whether it should be freely available to all women
all the time, or whether it should be restricted to
certain situations perhaps involving rape or incest or genetic abnormality

(30:54):
or danger to the mother. Like I think those could
potentially be worthwhile conversations, but they have to be couching
and understanding of the world in which we live in.
We can't just say some hypothetical ideal. We have to
actually look at the way we value pregnancy in this country,
at the access to medical care that we have available,

(31:15):
at the societal resources that are or are not being
offered to pregnant mothers, and a lot of people who
find themselves in high risk pregnancy situation.

Speaker 6 (31:25):
So there is a high risk pregnancy and it is
like your life is on the line, and according to
what I've said before, if there's a high risk of
severe harm, you're allowed to use lethal self defense.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
I think that's what's written, but that is not reality.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
That's not the reality of many any pregnant people here
in the state of Texas. And there are even more
draconian laws across a lot of this nation, and I
think that would be certainly the first thing that we
would start with is that we need to amend those laws.
I think anytime we talk about we have to get
away from a strictly binary ideal of exactly what anybody

(32:07):
should do and rather create a suite of options that
can be appropriate to any number of very intricate situations, and,
as Sophia pointed out earlier, be very mindful about the
way we differentiate morality and criminality.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, I think that can. I I'm to jump in
also and connect this a little bit, because I think
it's really easy to say when we're just thinking morally
things that we would be okay with, or things that
would operate within our system of morality and integrity, and
not necessarily realize that the impact that those things have. Say,
in general, we disagree with abortion, and so we do

(32:44):
things like select policies that would make it illegal or
harder to get with. These caveats maybe written into a
law that can feel really good, that can feel like
it fits with our moral framework. But the law doesn't
have our moral framework. We cannot write it specifically enough
that we will agree with it in these moral ways

(33:05):
in all circumstances. And so when we try to legislate
kind of these feelings, this internal sense of integrity, we
end up putting it at the end of a cudgel.
The law is not a finely tuned instrument. The law
is basically a best kind of an ax. So whether
or not you morally believe that a high risk pregnancy

(33:27):
should be something that someone could consider having an abortion under,
that's not really going to be reflected in the reality.
That's an interesting moral argument, I guess, but it kind
of doesn't really matter if that's still going to mean
that we select things that make it harder for other
people to get or harder for other people to get abortions,
because the upshot of that will be death on the

(33:49):
part of the mother. We've seen that happen again and again.
So it's kind of nice to live in a world
where we're like, the thing I prefer to happen would
happen the way I would prefer for this law to
be interpreted, It would be interpreted that way. We really
can see now that that's not the case, though, So
I think I'm going.

Speaker 6 (34:05):
To just respond to you one thing Christy said, and
one thing you said, Sophia.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
But for sure, christ I know.

Speaker 6 (34:13):
Christy, I know you said, like, it shouldn't be such
a black and white like there there should be some
room for our exploration. But I think whenever it comes
to discussing killing a human organism, we need it to
be as black and white as possible. This is the
line you can cross, this is the line you cannot.
If you cross this line, when you're talking about killing
another human organism, you've crossed the line. And that line

(34:36):
needs to be as defined as possible.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
And yeah, I very much appreciate that point of view.
You know, we talk about these slippery slope type arguments.
I do think that anytime the question is where do
we draw the line, the answer needs to come down
fucking somewhere. And I think I would put forward, based
on what Sophia just said, that a idealized society would
be one that removes criminality from the conversation and that

(35:01):
puts these very complicated moral questions into the hands of
pregnant people and their medical providers. How does that reality
strike you? Is that not where you might draw your line?

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Go on?

Speaker 6 (35:14):
And this is kind of that was kind of leading
into my question with Sophia because it sounded and correct
me if I'm alongst with you, But it's sounded like
you were okay with what I said, except you don't
think it's going to be practiced as said, and therefore
you don't think it should be long that you're okay
with the idea of it that you shouldn't be able
to kill another human organism unless there's high risk of

(35:34):
severe harm, and that should be held consistent throughout every
human organism.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Uh No, I just didn't. I don't necessarily agree with it,
but I just didn't choose to argue with it in
that moment. I mean, I think that that's a totally okay.
So that is such a hypothetical that I also would
bring it down to, like I guess, you know, if
you're curious about my personal stance on it, I think
that before a certain point, that point being viability outside

(35:59):
of the womb, which I know is a squishy question,
but that's where I personally would draw this line. I
don't think there's such a thing as a moral like
abortion itself is not a moral question. There are moral
abortions and immoral abortions. Chances are how you go about
it would sort of matter. So, for instance, an immoral abortion,
maybe one in which you're at you know, you are

(36:23):
in every way wanted pregnancy going forward, having like a
great situation, and then you choose to you know, abort
the baby, which I yeah, I conceptualized as a baby
because I've had kids, but not everyone has to in
order to get back at your partner. You know, that
would be I would say, an immoral abortion. It's not

(36:45):
really about the abortion. It's about the motivation. It's about
the fact you were doing this expressly to hurt people.
So you know, I'm like, that's I guess it would
be an immoral abortion. But like a moral abortion could
be one where you have three or four kids already.
This is going to literally take food out of their mouths.
You do not have the to support another child. You
don't have the time to support that child, and you
may want it, but it's just not going to be

(37:08):
reasonable for you to take care of that. If that
is really the best option for someone, I'd say that's
a moral abortion. So I actually I would say that
there's not really like a line I draw on abortion
itself beyond viability. And again that's my personal line. I
did a quite deep study on the concept of abortion
for a while, and the place where I was the
most surprised my opinion changed was actually in late term abortions,

(37:31):
because I thought I was going to be against those
no matter what. The more I got into it, looking
into when they actually happen, who actually gets them, and
the circumstances that they go through. I was surprised by
how much I felt like those should be allowed. I
thought I would have a really hard line there. It
turns out it's almost it's pretty much always a very
thoughtful decision undertaken by doctors. Doctors oftentimes refuse to do

(37:53):
late term abortions because they're like, no, I'm not comfortable
with this, this baby's viable, I'm not going to do it. Yeah,
it's usually in really horrific circumstances where that was an
incredibly wanted baby anyway, And but usually, I mean every
single time I can think of, it's just I'm leaving
room for a possibility that that's not the case. So yeah,
I guess I've also been surprised by my own opinion
on a person as time goes has been a bit

(38:14):
of a rant. But you mentioned what I believed, so
there it is.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
Well, I appreciate that. I think you're the first hosts
I've talked to you on the various shows who has
given a line other than first, And I understand it's
not a hard line for you because you're still seem
to be okay with late term abortion and certain circumstances.
But I appreciate the honesty. And yeah, I would say,

(38:40):
first off, there's no such thing as an unwanted kid.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
It's not true. That's not true at all. What are
you talking about. I know multiple people personally who are
conceived through rape. I mean, that's just how is that
possible that that's a wanted kid?

Speaker 6 (38:57):
Somebody else would love that kid if they had the chance.
I guarantee it.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
No, Okay, I highly highly highly recommend. Okay, I'm gonna
just positoring there. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Seconds in our foster care system, please.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Exactly fifteen seconds in our foster ear system. Also, our
adoption system has a lot of issues. Even if that
kid is technically considered wanted by someone else, it doesn't
mean that they deserve to use my body if I'm
raped to have their own kid. First all, that's a
really horrifying thought. And second, look up stories of adult adoptees.

(39:31):
Adult adoptees will talk about their experiences as the adopted child,
and they're oftentimes horrific. They will actively say they wish
their biological parent could have had an abortion. These are
not necessarily solutions. That's kind of like saying there's no
such thing as an unwanted street urchin into Kenzie in England.
Somebody will put them up a shoot to have them,

(39:52):
you know, clean fire flus. Somebody will use that kid
like that. That's really difficult at some point if we
extrapolate far enough, someone wants to use you to fill
a hole in their life, maybe even pretend that that
you know you're their biological mother. But that's not a solution.
And I highly encourage you to even also look up
the death rates for adopted children versus non adopted children,

(40:17):
Like these experiences are different, and I'm not by any
means saying every adopted family is bad and evil, but
there is inherent trauma and adoption and it is made
light of very easily, and I feel like we're kind
of on the brink of that. So I really would
be curious as to your thoughts if you kind of
engage with those stories of adult survivors of adoption. And

(40:38):
I use loord survivors because that's what a lot of
them use.

Speaker 6 (40:41):
So true things I've read that turnal ways study and
that was honestly like a good source, like certain circumstances
of hey, this is how abortion improved my life, or hey,
this is how abortion improved my family is like Xcellenz,
there's a lot of stories like that in the turnal
Way study. I'm like, abortion hasn't helped out people financially

(41:03):
helped out faring these financially. I definitely think it can
and it has, but I think there's a lot of
evil that can also help out families. As far as
getting medicare adult adoptees, I'm going to have to wait
a couple of years. I have two adopted kids myself,
and we'll see what happens when they get older. But
for right now, I'm just going to try to be
the best parent to know and that they deserve.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
So I almost feel even more Yeah, so I actually
love that. I almost feel like even more so than
because you're a parent of adopted children. The kids who
have struggled and had the inherent trauma of adoption and
still do talk with and are close to their adopted parents,
it's because their parents started researching the system, and a

(41:47):
lot of them mention, like these adult adoptees talk about how, yeah,
their parents adopted them and then started to research the
system and kind of realize some of these outcomes and
actually made their adopted parents better parents who had more
of an understanding over they can from. So I get
that it might hit like a little closer home because
for me, I'm like the immediate thing I think whenever
I learned anything about parenting, I'm like, oh no, did

(42:07):
I completely mess up my kid already? Because I have
a three known almost one year old, and I'm like,
you know, right, they're so vulnerable. But I know it
would be difficult, I'm sure because I just I go
through similar difficulty. But that might actually be really good
for you to look at too, because you have adopted children,
because there are parents who have done that and it's
been pretty good.

Speaker 6 (42:28):
Right, I know, Like for me when my key turned one,
I was like, hey, we needed the kid is still alive.
We did something right now and then But now as
she gets old, I might get a little emotional, but
she is she has two older siblings that a mom kept,
So I know she's going to have abandonment issues grown

(42:49):
up because she's going to be like, well, why did
she get rid of me? What's wrong with me? So
I know that that's going to be coming down the
line trying to keep an open relationship with the birth
mom whole. That takes away some of the band issues.
But you know what, whatever she has coming down the
line for her will be there and we'll try a

(43:10):
support her. But she's probably on some issues going down
the line. But I think whatever issue she has, it's
better than her being killed when she was in the room.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
I think that, I really I think that that's where
these issues become so hard. And I think it can
be easy to minimize the major impact that abortion can have.
It's and just say like it's good all the time,
and I believe in it all the time. It's also
easy to minimize the major impact that I appreciate that

(43:42):
you've read the Turnoway study that not having an abortion
can have. I think it's I think one thing I
do want to put out to you is that the
way you love your kids, what you feel for them
about them, is so often the way that women who
have abortions feel about their already living children. It's not easier.
They don't love their kids less than you love your kids,

(44:05):
and they're still making this choice, which to me indicates
it's more than just financial. You know, I think we
throughout kind of when you're like, yeah, there may be
financial benefits, but there's financial benefits evil things all the time. Okay,
but let's talk about what the financial situation means for
these particular families. You know, that might mean, particularly as

(44:25):
as it can be hard to ensure that your children
are fed and clothed, and we have less and less
support for that over time, that might mean that you
have active suffering on the part of these children who
are already alive, who love you so much. And I
don't expect this to change your opinion at all, necessarily
because I think I really appreciate how much're engaging with
this issue. But I think I put it out there

(44:47):
to just underscore that, Yeah, I agree that it's great
and wonderful that you get to have children you love.
I don't think anything. I in no way want to
discount that. But these women who do have abortions also
love their kids too.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah. If I can just bottom line it all a
little bit, I want to say that I really acknowledge
Sophia's point about the possibility of a quote moral abortion
versus an immoral abortion, and where I really come down
ultimately on all of this is that we ought to
be removing the criminality of it and leaving those very

(45:23):
complex moral decisions in the hands of pregnant people and
their medical providers, who I hope are being taught through
an incredibly complex series of medical ethics and are working
very diligently to apply them in incredibly specific and difficult situations.

(45:43):
And that we would build a society that offers support
to these decisions and to these different types of opportunities,
and that we take lawmakers who are incredibly disconnected from
the situation and so often just looking for good sound
bites out of the equation. Does that feel like a
place that you'd feel comfortable coming down? Is that a

(46:04):
good bottom line for you as well?

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah? I think that sometimes it surprises people how much
I may morally oppose certain situations for abortion. That's a
personal choice on my part, like that's how I feel
about it. But because these are so complex, because these
issues are so hard, because we know what happens legally
and we see it more and more every day. When
we've taken the ability to make that choice out of

(46:26):
the hands of doctors, out of the hands of the
women who are most impacted by this and put it
in the hands of the state that I feel like
because of the complexity, then it needs to be something
individuals and healthcare providers select, you know, not in spite
of it.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, yeah, So go on, can you kind of bottom
line it for me and let me know where you're
at here at the end of this call.

Speaker 6 (46:49):
Yeah, I would say I brought up points four in
favor of abortion for a financial reasons. I know a
lot of the times it's more how cannot feed the
rest of my family, or even for the kid, it's
this kid is going to suffer. I love this kid
so much. I don't want them to go through with
the suffering. Let me and their suffering now understand that.
But I also understand a lot of evil in the

(47:09):
world has been done out of positive thoughts. For Kude,
I think there's a line in it from Pirates of
the Caribbean, like, do you guys remember that movie? It's yeah,
I definitely remember that movie.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
I have a lot of stories about that movie.

Speaker 6 (47:28):
A lot a lot of good things are paid like
it pretty much just the road to hell is paid
with good intentions. So like doing evil things like killing
your kids can be done from a point of love,
but in the end that act is still evil.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
And here's something I would I would I would say,
I fully agree, Oh sorry ahead, I fully agree with
you that I love quotes like that. I fully agree
with you that a lot of good things can be
done out of evil. I think that's exactly how I
would describe our current abortion laws. There are things people
who feel an immense amount of stress at the concept

(48:03):
of abortion, who do not, who feel it's doing something evil.
But as a result, we have created a situation where
women and their doctors cannot make choices, and women are
dying or women are being permanently incapable of having children
because they go through this really horrific process. Like, these

(48:24):
are laws that I think may have been made with
some very good intentions, probably out of love. And I mean,
I think it's it's it's I love that. I love
that that that line. But yeah, I would apply it
to that too.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Yeah. I mean, when we get into the like deontology
versus utilitarianism type situation and debate, we do have an
obligation to descend into the particulars and actually see what
is happening. And we can see very clearly in the
statistics since the DABS decision that market harm is being
caused particularly to pregnant when and then so it's uh,

(49:01):
it's definitely a concern. Go on, I really appreciate your
call and you being willing to descend into something.

Speaker 6 (49:08):
Yeah, and it was a very nice call. Sorry, I
got a little emotional there.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (49:16):
I also I feel like, yeah, of course, I mean,
you have kids. The idea that like either half of humanity,
not half, but like a million of humanity is being
killed in America or a million pregnant moms are being
forced to go through something they don't want. It's a
bit either I'm right I'm saving kids, or I'm wrong

(49:37):
and I'm hurting million. As a woman, it's a it's
a big question. I really got to try and make
sure I have as good of understanding as this as
I can get. I think discussing it with people who
disagree with me is probably the best way to go.
Reading things like the turn Away study, and one thing
I was surprised with with the turn Away study was
it's said like it actually showed data for how I'm

(50:00):
going to say pro life walls.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
I know you're not going to agree with that, but
it's the term we use, you know.

Speaker 6 (50:07):
Yeah, like how it actually does affect. Like one thing
I keep hearing you is that all these laws won't
stop one from having abortions. It actually does has a
very real effect. I think overturning throw magnify that even more.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Yeah, I think you're actually right, you know, like I
feel like we could go on talking for days. This
is a very interesting conversation. But yeah, I just I
really appreciate the all right.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 6 (50:31):
And it's been a very good time.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
Thank you guys, Thank you. All right. Well, I do
want to remind people that bat Cruise tickets are still available,
But rather than jumping into all of those different places
that you can donate and support the organization, I just
want to remind people again about bitt lea slash Austin
Flood Fund, where you can contribute to the five oh
one c three nonprofit Kerr County Flood Relief Fund that

(50:57):
was set up by the Community Foundation of the Texas
Hill Country. And before we jump into our next caller,
let's go ahead and thank our incredible top five patrons. Sophia,
you want to do the honors for us this week?

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, give me one second too, Yes, they're there. I'm sorry.
I was really absorbed with that call and I was
like I should still down. Okay, So our top five
patrons number one Oops all Singularity, number two dingle Berry Jackson,
number three Coleevi, Helvetti, number four Ja Carlton, and number

(51:35):
five Hell's Bells.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Seeing her on the list.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Nice. Yeah, there's some names in here that I'm like, oh,
I'm less familiar with, so it's fun to see shake
up a little bit. Yeah, honorable mention Tod vor Valjean,
which I'm I'm kind of saying, like Jean Valjean from
's like that I think has to.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Be the way that you do it.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Four, So okay, let's probably demonetized. Yeah, any dot c
sly sash Patreon t if you would like to join
us as a Patreon subscriber. And with that, let's let's
kind of keep the conversation going by talking to Anne
in California, who has another view on abortion and what's

(52:15):
on your mind.

Speaker 5 (52:16):
Hello Christy, Hello Sophia, how are you today?

Speaker 3 (52:20):
Doing all right?

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Thank you?

Speaker 3 (52:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Doing pretty well?

Speaker 5 (52:24):
Good?

Speaker 6 (52:24):
Good?

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Well.

Speaker 5 (52:26):
I'm calling in as someone I have been pregnant three
times in my life, and I made a different decision
each time. So I know personal experience doesn't necessarily amount
to expertise, but do you.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Think it is important to enter into this space with
I mean, we talked to so many folks who I
won't say don't have any dog in this fight, but
who don't have a uterus, who have never had a
you know, congenital condition or been faced with that like
life life of the mother, life of the fetus type
of decision. So I do really appreciate the thoughts of

(53:06):
somebody who has been in experiences related to pregnancy. So
sorry for that preamble, but please go on in.

Speaker 5 (53:14):
Okay, okay, Well, my first pregnancy was I gave the
baby up for adoption. I was impregnated non consensually, and
I didn't know what to do. I was eighteen years old,
just you know, a girl with nine siblings from a

(53:34):
Catholic family, and I didn't know what to do. I
was scared. I'm like, well, I can't get an abortion.
There's no way I could keep it because I was
eighteen and my parents said that if I kept it,
I wouldn't be able to live in their house anymore.
So they were going to throw me out and I
had nowhere to go. I had no money, I had nothing.

(53:54):
And so my final decision was, Okay, I'll give the
baby up for adoption. And I felt really good about
that decision, so because I thought, I thought, you know what,
you know, I you know, it's the best thing for
the baby, and you know, and I'm not gonna lie.
I I was not ready for that role. I wanted to,

(54:14):
you know, have a few years of being young, so so,
you know, but I still feel that it was the
best decision at the time. God, there's so much So
I went through this Catholic adoption agency and because it
was all I knew, Like I didn't. I wasn't even
sure you even believed in that stuff anymore. But I

(54:34):
was like, well, you just stick with what you know.
And I was raised very Catholic. F I'm like, Okay,
that Catholic adoption agency was the port in the storm
for me that I went through, and you know, I
then the time came I had the baby. I chose
the parents before before she was born. I had a
meeting with them. They're very nice people, but I'm really nervous.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
Sorry, oh no, like just to affirm that I really
appreciate you sharing your story even so far, like even
so far, there's perspectives in it that are great and
that are so valuable. So and I can tell you
I can't really speak for you, Christy, but I have
a hunch you'll agree that we make the best decisions

(55:19):
we can at that time. And so I absolutely can
see how as an eighteen year old you're like, what
do I do here? You know, this is a huge,
huge decision, and you know so so just so you
know in case you were thinking, am I going to
be judged for this zero amount of judgment from anywhere here?
And I fully believe you were. You were doing your

(55:40):
best at every point.

Speaker 5 (55:41):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Me and Carl Rogers would co sign, Please keep going?

Speaker 5 (55:47):
Okay, Okay, where was I? Okay? I chose the parents
and everything, and I had the baby, but I was
not prepared for I thought there's going to be some emotion.
But I was in the hospital for a couple of
days with her, and you know, I only got to
hold her for a couple of minutes every evening, But

(56:08):
every time I held her, I just I sobbed. I
just it was so hard. It was just so so hard.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
You know.

Speaker 5 (56:16):
And then on that yeah, and then the last day
in the hospital, when the adopted parents were on their
way to pick her up, they asked me if I
wanted to hold her one last time, and I couldn't
do it. I couldn't do it. It was so hard.
I was like, no, if I hold her one last time,
I'm not going to want to let her go. And

(56:38):
I've already made this decision, and you know, and and
I knew if if I had switched and said no,
I'm going to keep it, I'd be screwed. So you know,
the only thing I could do was like, I leave
the hospital without holding her one last time. And I
don't feel like I was getting rid of her or
abandoning her in any way. But I do feel sometimes

(57:01):
that these pro life people, when they talk about it,
they kind of act as if it's always just you know,
a mother, you know, a woman, just you know, getting
rid of a child. And they seem to have this
casual attitude about adoption, Oh, you know, just give it
up for adoption. Well, as you you were talking earlier,

(57:22):
do you know the adoption system is not great, and
the foster care systems is horrible, and I just I
guess I'm saying is like pro life people really need
to think about what it means. And I know there's
all different kinds of cases where a child is taken

(57:44):
from a parent. Sometimes they you know, they give it
up for adoption. Sometimes maybe the child gets taken away
from them for whatever reason. Sometimes you know, or they'll
drop it off at a fire station or something. But
they're all hard and they're you know, they're hard on
on the person doing that, and you know, and they
can be hard for the kids. And what go Anne

(58:07):
was talking about earlier about I guess an adopted daughter
or something. But he's saying, oh, you know, he knows
that he's going to have to, you know, help her
when she starts asking questions about why did my mom
get rid of me?

Speaker 1 (58:21):
What?

Speaker 5 (58:22):
You know, what did I do wrong? And I'm like, well,
what you know? Does she know the circumstances because I
didn't get the whole story about it because I was,
you know, chatting with the call screener. But but my
daughter's adoptive parents told her that, you know, your mother,
she was just she was a young girl, and she

(58:45):
was very scared and she was very confused, and she
wanted to do what was best for you or what
you know, or what she felt was best for you,
and so you know, yeah, she gave you to us.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
So yeah, no, I very much appreciate that story. I'm
interested in your other experiences with pregnancy and how that
might kind of inform you in these questions of the
criminality of abortion or any other thoughts you might want
to impart to us before that.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
I also just want to acknowledge from a human perspective
that I actually got a little emotional as you're talking
about holding your baby and how you know I've had
to and I remember being asked at the hospital like okay,
so you're taking your baby home, like, you know, just

(59:32):
to clarify that that there wasn't an adoption agreement in place,
and just how how strong you must have been, because
even hearing about it, I'm like crumble inside. So I'm
just acknowledging that and appreciating that you're sharing.

Speaker 6 (59:49):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
I don't know if you see it, but there's someding
you love rings on the screen. Yeah, So how much
I appreciate that, and how you know, we never know
who needs our story, and so someone listening to that story,
as hard as I'm sure it is to share a
lot of the time, you know, if it can just
soften their heart toward others who are going through something similar,
I just appreciate that so much.

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
Oh, thank you. I didn't mean to make you emotional.
I'm sorry, that's okay, Okay, So Christy, you asked about
my other experiences.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
Yeah, or really just what your experiences have taught you
about this question of abortion and the morality or the
criminality of it all, and what you might recommend. What
is your sort of is ought for those watching about
how we ought to be thinking about abortion.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
Well, I mean, again, it's another personal experience. But you know,
I because I did have eventually have my son with
the father of the fetus that I had an abortion from.
But I mean, my opinion about it is that Roe v.
Wade should have been law because I think I think

(01:01:09):
Roe v. Wade it's like up to viability unless there's
something wrong. And if people want to be pro life
and they want to prevent women from getting abortions, well
what are they doing to help?

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
Yeah? Yeah, I don't like to engage in what about
it isn't But you're yeah, you definitely highlight a really
important point here, because if the pro life movement wants
to be invested in increasing the well being and the
number of people being born, then there are definitely some
much more efficient and effective ways of going about that process.

(01:01:45):
It does raise some very interesting questions about the motivation
of the pro life movement and its ties to evangelicalism.
I mean there's a lot to be said going down
that road.

Speaker 5 (01:01:56):
Right, Yes, there is there's a lot to it. I mean, personally,
I think that you know, I guess I'm on the safe,
rare and legal, you know thing where like I believe
in I believe in proper sex education. I believe in
freely available contraception, so people, you know, they have information

(01:02:18):
and they have protection not just from you know, pregnancy,
but from diseases too. But if that doesn't work out
and you and you know, you know, say you do
use failed birth control and you get pregnant and you
don't want to keep it, then yeah, I think, you know,
within the first twenty or so weeks what the Roby Wade.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Was, uh No, I mean I definitely co signed all
of these wishless items and just kind of want to
add on to it building a society where we actually
like respect the sexual and bodily autonomy of young women,
you know, I mean basic feminist ideals here would really
change the conversation.

Speaker 6 (01:02:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
I think the thing that stands out to me as
you're saying this is that we know how to eliminate abortion,
Like it's the things you just listed. We know how
to make it so rare that it is almost just
completely negligible. It is sex education, it is free contraceptives.
It is ensuring that we talk about things like consent.
It's ensuring that we have a healthy respect for people's

(01:03:22):
personal sexual in life choices. But we know that for
religious reasons, there are people that are actually opposing these
measures in our society. And I think for me, you know,
we are an atheist show, right, and so for me
kind of when I think about what Christy mentioned up top,
Christian nationalism, it's hard to believe people really want to

(01:03:47):
do things like eliminate abortion when they then support wholeheartedly
people in power who are not going to do those things,
who are just going to crack down on women. That's tough.
That's hard to really believe. It's the abortion they care,
you know.

Speaker 5 (01:04:01):
Yeah, Yeah, it is it is. I mean, ever since
Roby Wade was overturned and the dogs, he said, look
at the horrible things that happen, like that poor woman
in Georgia who had a wedplot in her brain and
she couldn't get care and she was brain dead, and
they kept her on life support because she was like

(01:04:23):
nine weeks pregnant when she died or was declared brain dead,
and they kept her on life support until they couldn't
keep her on life support anymore. They had to remove,
you know, the feets from the womb.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
And I think the thing for me that comes up
with that, and yeah, well, the thing for me that
comes up with that is that you described it as horrible,
and I wholeheartedly agree. I think the thing I have
a hard time with with people is those who don't
see that as horrible, those who see that as a
good outcome. There are plenty of those, and it's usually
four religious reasons. And it's hard not to see religion

(01:05:00):
is harmful personally in society when it's literally making someone
an incubator and calling that a win, you know, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:05:10):
Yeah, I mean that's I mean, that's what we've come to.
And I think in any other timeline, if a pregnant
woman died, the fetus would die too, and they would
just you know, you know, this is a tragic loss.
They wouldn't assign any criminality to it or you know,
suspect any foul play. Is just yeah, a pregnant woman

(01:05:31):
and the fetus have died. Yeah, it was just just
back then. But now, I mean even before we'll be wade.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Yeah, now that and I think the idea of keeping
people alive in a brain dead state maybe wasn't as developed,
but I agree, like so kind of knowing you're in
California here, I've gone through two pregnancies and two birston Texas,
which feels relevant here. And we had like a whole
conversation with my husband and I and this was I realized,

(01:06:01):
what I'm about to do is admit to conspiring to
potentially commit a crime in Texas. And I never committed,
but it's essentially what I did. It was like, Okay,
if there's a situation where you may not survive, where
something would happen. It was a discussion of what I
would do, like what would happen? And I couldn't ask
a doctor about it here because they could be held

(01:06:23):
criminally liable for my abortion. There are many people that,
you know, the state of Texas has started requesting hiporecords.
People women in the state of Texas don't use period
tracking apps anymore, oftentimes because they're worried that that will
be monitored to see whether or not they got an
abortion at some point. So it's people act like this
is crazy, but this is real, and so my we're

(01:06:45):
in a privileged of position to say that my plan
was to go to California to friends that I have
there and seek an abortion if it became medically necessary.
I couldn't talk to my doctors here. I would just
have to come back and say that I went on
vacation in California and I had a miscarriage. That is
what That was our plan, because you have to have

(01:07:06):
a plan. We were lucky enough to be able to
have a plan. But exactly what happened in Georgia, exactly
what has happened multiple times now, is what we were
worried about happening. It's so real and for anyone to
diminish that or the impact that would have on my
husband and with my second present pregnancy, my current child

(01:07:27):
to say that that I don't know that abortion is
not a potentially medically necessary procedure. It diminishes their lives.
It diminishes the impact I have in their lives that
I might matter to my already existence, son, It diminishes
all of that. And it's bizarre that what I just
did was admit on the Internet to contemplating committing a crime,

(01:07:48):
But that that's what's real.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
Yeah, it's a absolutely wild world that we are building
right now, and the consequences of the Dobs decision are
still being sorted through, but early returns are really terrifying,
whether we're looking at these anecdotal study stories or the
statistical analysis that are beginning to come out and be
sort of sifted through. No matter how you slice it,

(01:08:11):
when we bring criminality into this conversation, you see demonstrable harm,
whether that was anybody's intention, whether that harm is being
caused by a desire to prevent the evil of murder,
or however we define that. Our current situation is incredibly messy,
and I think that's something that we all have to

(01:08:32):
grapple with. No matter where you come down on that
question of viability or whether or not to take care
of the violinist or pull the trolley lever or whatever
else you want to talk about. We have to recognize
that there is incredible harm being done right now.

Speaker 5 (01:08:47):
Yes, yes, even in California. I mean, I'm fifty seven
years old and I've had a hysterectomy, But that doesn't
mean that I don't feel like I have a dog
in the fight, you know, because what I've been through,
and because I don't want to see younger women, you know,
deal with all of this and have to go through
all of this. Like I think about my daughter, I

(01:09:08):
think amount my granddaughter.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
But.

Speaker 5 (01:09:12):
I don't need you know, like even if I was
younger and you know, still able to procreate here in California,
I don't know that I would feel safe right now,
even here. I hear that because the government has gotten
so out of control.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
Yeah, yeah, no, I hear that. And I feel like
I maybe talk about this on air a little bit
too often, but I have to admit I'm kind of
fucked up about it. Just working as a therapist, seeing
how many of my clients are fleeing the state of
Texas because they don't feel comfortable raising their trans kid
here because they don't feel comfortable risking getting pregnant and

(01:09:49):
starting a family in a society that is not going
to support them if something tragic were to happen. The
amount of people fleeing the Austin area in order to
seek some amount of I guess political refugee status in
other states to try and feel like they have more
safety and more support is just really remarkable. And it's

(01:10:11):
something that I have experienced on a personal level with
friends and family members leaving the area. It's something I've
definitely seen in mass on a professional level, and it
really terrifies me. This idea of let's just give the
question back to the states is having profound impact on
people's lives, even people who will never show up in
the statistics on abortion related deaths or whatever else we

(01:10:35):
might be trying to use to gauge all of those.

Speaker 5 (01:10:38):
Well, aren't there some states?

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Is it?

Speaker 5 (01:10:40):
Florida one of them? They don't even put out statistics anymore,
or they fired the people who do the statistics.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
My fun I heard you believe I got a news
story connected to Florida where there was reduced reporting. We're
seeing reduced reporting across a number of federal and state
agencies right now in a supposed attempt to cut back
government costs. That's certainly another conversation, but a messy one
and one that I barely even want to think about

(01:11:09):
in the wake of all of the criticism being lobbed
on our weather forecasting system at this particular time in
our state's history. So, yeah, big questions to be exploring
that direction.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Yeah, I think it's also like one of those things
that sometimes I remember this happened during the pandemic as well,
that I would bet money there's somebody listening who is
just like, well, I mean, according to this stat like
that death was actually over this other thing, you know,
and try to like split these hairs to say that
it's not medical care someone was unable to receive during pregnancy,

(01:11:45):
that actually that actually killed them, That it's not you
know what we're saying that it is trying to split
hairs with these stats or trying to paint them in
a different way in order to argue that, you know,
really the risks aren't as high as we're making it
out to be. Women are just hysterical. It's really the

(01:12:07):
upshot of that argument. Fundamentally, though, I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
Yeah, right, these problems are solved like good old fashioned
feminism actually acted out in our legal system and our
culture and our society well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
And it's interesting because I've had the argument with male
members of my own family one that they are choosing
policies where I could die, and that would be something
they had chosen that I was in that system. They
chose to make a system where I was more likely
to die than I was before. That's sort of hard
to swallow when that's like people that you really love

(01:12:45):
and care about, you know, not all of my male relatives,
but a decent number, and they are making these for
avowed religious reasons. But I guess my life matters less.
Straight up. That just seems to be true because that's
the decision that they're making, and that Secondarily, we've talked
about the fact that there is a death hole. No
matter how we slice it, there's a death hole. How

(01:13:06):
many women does it have to be before it's not
okay with you anymore? You know, Like, is there a number?
We're talking about black and white when it comes to
human life? So what's that number of women? You know?
How much can it increase that women die in childbirth,
that women die from pregnancy related complications before you feel like, Okay,
maybe maybe this is enough. I'll change my mind. You know,
there's no number. They're not They're never going to be

(01:13:28):
enough because it doesn't really matter to them.

Speaker 5 (01:13:32):
That's what I was thinking. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I
was thinking when I really remember for them.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Sorry, And I really just wanted to say that I
heard what you said when a anecdote is not the
same thing as data, that one person's personal story is
not necessarily what we should be basing all of our
you know, governmental and moral thinking upon. And I'm incredibly
grateful to you for being willing to share yours with

(01:14:01):
us and to put a voice, if not a face,
to some of these issues that so often get gobbled
up by the Internet into a bunch of men sitting
around stroking their own beards, talking about what other people
ought to be doing with their body. I really appreciate
you joining us here.

Speaker 5 (01:14:20):
Oh, I appreciate you having me on and letting me
get this out, because I've been listening to several of
these shows and they bring up adoption. These prolite people
just they bring up adoption like it's nothing, or they
bring up that science fiction thing about well just take
the fetus out and put it in an artificial womb,
which that brings you know, which is like, okay, one,

(01:14:41):
that's that can't happen. That doesn't happen, Probably not going
to happen. But even if it could happen, then who
then who is responsible for it?

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Yes, I almost asked that exact question. I was like,
who's paying for the artificial womb? Who's who's on the
who is it? The states like, yeah, anyway, I agree,
imagining the whole life movements willingness to pay for that
question Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Yeah, So there's hypocrisy all around. We do have to
still wrestle with these complex questions. There is no easy
way to draw a strict moral line, but I think
we are called upon to make moral judgments and hopefully
not be judgmental of others when we don't know all
the details of their situation and anything else you'd like
to add, well.

Speaker 5 (01:15:25):
I just wanted to also. Fia discussed it about the religion.
You know, these laws coming from religion, and we're not
supposed to be that way in this country. It's the
first thing in the constitution, but we are, unfortunately and
religion in law in these abortion laws, is causing women

(01:15:46):
to be prosecuted for having miscarriages.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
Yeah, yeah, these are very real issues and points to
what Sophia said about the lobbying a cudgel or an
axe rather than a scalpel or a razor. And yeah,
I do think that we can make good laws to
try and prevent people from doing bad things. I think
there is no person on earth who could reasonably say

(01:16:09):
we have done that around the question of abortion. And
certainly there are things that need to be revisited.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
Yep, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
So much for your time. You have a great rest
of your weekend. All right, well, I want to make
sure to bring Richard back in and check in here
at the end of the show as we're getting him
pulled up. Sophia, I guess I wanted to ask you about,
you know, sort of that question hanging over our head
about patriotism and Christianity, and this whole show being about

(01:16:38):
abortion seems really tied to that idea. I mean, how
does Christian nationalism factor into our entire abortion system?

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
You have thirty seconds goo, okay, I would say that
I really love your definition of Christian nationalism. Up at
the top of the show, where America belongs to white
Christians and should be ruled accordingly. I thought that was
a great definition because I look at it and I'm like,
I'm white, no longer Christian. I will only add into
that white Christian males because my rights are not really
thought about here. I would also point out that my

(01:17:07):
undergrad is into political science. I know a lot about
the Constitution. I've gotten just so many arguments with Christian
nationalists where they say something is the Constitution and it's
demonstrably not, because you know what I have in my
purse at all times, a Constitution. I am a patriot.
My family has been here since the fucking Mayflower. So
you know, I guess you can't get more heritage American,
which is basically just a white American anyway than me. Yes,

(01:17:29):
I'm almost translucent. I am so white. I have as
white Shot would say, gens so pure you could lick
things off of them. And yet fuck you. Still, I
am of these people. I know these people, I was
raised around these people. I've been in these churches. I
believe these things. I made those arguments for you. You
are still wrong, and not only are you wrong, you

(01:17:51):
are cruel and the cruelty is the point. Okay, all right, you've.

Speaker 1 (01:17:54):
Made good use of your thirty seconds. Goddamn, thank you
so much, Richard. What do you have to add about
the notion of American Christian nationalism, any of your thoughts
about the show before we wrap up today.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
I just want to know if Texas is really the
Republic of Gilead, because that's what it sounds like to me.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
You know, it feels that way sometimes. But now with
legalized THHC, I guess so, I know, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
So that we can be docile as.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
Yeah, yeah, laws. You know, federalism is kind of in
doubt when you live under some of the people I
live under right now.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
But fair enough, Yeah, I think Gohan, I think there
was a little bit of goal pulls moving going off
to some of his responses. It was a good call
overall to go back.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
And listen to it again. But I did feel like
the argument shifted every ten minutes in that forty minute call.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
Yeah, I think it was a good call overall. Le's
just I'm one thing I'm really interested in with him,
and it didn't give pronouns. I don't know whether it's
a him or what he claims.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
Yeah, I imagine go ahead and go ahead, go ahead
lives their entire life, and their pronound based decision was
not at all political.

Speaker 3 (01:19:15):
I'm interested because they've neversed it as to whether they
are a Christian and to whether it is that Christianity
that informs their beliefs on abortion. I'd been interested in
that aspect of it, and on Great Call. One of
the great things I like about the show, especially when

(01:19:37):
i'm you know, getting the opportunity to listen to the callers,
is just listening to perspectives that I cannot possibly have
myself and learning from them. And and that was a fantastic,
fantastic call with Anne. Great job. I really enjoyed it.
Thanks guys.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
Yeah, absolutely so. I want to make sure to remind
people before we go out, just one last time, bid
dot lee slash Austin Flood Fund where you can contribute
to support people in Kerr County and the other affected
areas here in central Texas. Richard, can you remind us
what the question of the week is?

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
Come on the full thing gope for this week is wrong,
ANSWER's own way, Jesus blank for your sins, replying the
comments and tune in at the beginning of next week's
episode for the top three answers.

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
All right, well, definitely, we are sending out our love
rings to all of the people affected by the flooding
here in central Texas, to everybody who's been affected by
the Dobbs decision and are certainly inadequate adoption in foster
care and medical health services for around pregnancy, anybody else
you always send out lover rings to.

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
I mean, I think you covered a lot of it.
I'm thinking about Texas right now. Obviously we're very close
to it, and yeah, that's a I think that's a
good choice.

Speaker 3 (01:21:02):
Yeah, you know, absolutely loverings to the families of all
those involved in that tragedy. And you know, let's you know,
not let's not give them prayers, but let's hope that
they can take strength and support from those around them,
and you know, let's have There's this thing about the

(01:21:25):
I've just read somewhere as the show was on about
Texas didn't give aid to other states when when tragedies
happen to them and they're appealing for aid now, and
you know the post I read states that, well, we
shouldn't be giving it. And because they didn't give fut

(01:21:46):
that give them the aid and you know people needed
and people need that support in this difficult time. It
doesn't matter whether the Christian, whether the Conservative, it doesn't matter.
You know people are suffering in Do the right thing
and give them all the age you can, whether it's
by donating, whether it's the government, channels, whatever, Let's help

(01:22:08):
these people as much as we come.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):
Absolutely, just remember the humans and the humanitarian disaster.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
Yeah, the good ones and the bad ones in the blue, red,
purple ones, the humans.

Speaker 5 (01:22:19):
YEA.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Not to tack this on, but I do want to
send out quick lover rings to Vegan Aliens and Miranda Rensberger,
our super chat supporters, one note saying, I want to
thank the host last week for the supported words supportive
words regarding veganism. My deconstruction led me to veganisms, so
I appreciate the support here as well as great show.

(01:22:42):
I can't believe it's already over. I will say the same.
I'll remind people that they can still donate and help
those affected, and then of course remind everybody watching that
if you don't believe, this is your community and we
appreciate you being here. If you do believe, we certainly
don't hate you.

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